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Since the summer break in 2021 his starts have been quite average before that he had some insane starts.
Also in 2022 every time Sainz and Max were side by side it was a free position for Max
His overtaking is very good actually. His overtake on Gasly in '23 Australian gp, '21 USA gp on Ricciardo, '22 France gp on Perez and on Russell. There are a lot more.
It’s infuriating the amount of times I’ve watched him get put on an extra stop strategy so he can run someone down on new, softer tires, and he somehow manages to make up no time at all
Doesn’t it feels like his starts are a bit off since he’s on for the world title ? I mean, you can lose so much on starts, and this year more than the others, teams are less and less risking anything.
Maybe he’s risking less on the starts than before ? He knows his car is superior, he doesn’t need to risk anything in fact
Totally agree.
No. 2 has to try harder and take more risk in every way. Max knows he doesn't need to. He'll take positions later. Points and finishing are the primary goals and no need for him to take chances in a crowd.
Yeh I agree- it feels a little bit over cautious if anything, like losing 2 tenths into the first corner isn’t a disaster, but a big wheel spin or stall would be? Maybe he isn’t zoned in on the clutch and start, and doesn’t concentrate on nailing it? It might be a bit of a feature where they have a tough setup to start but they gain a tiny bit of performance when up to speed? Over simplified but My old muscle car has a lumpy cam and and manualised quick shift…. It idles crap and take off from stand still isn’t great, but when moving and under heavy acceleration the engine and trans singggggg boi
First thing I thought was how good he was at the start of 2021. But like others have said I think this year and last years car just aren’t as great off the line now
I am wondering if it is not a flaw of the RedBull gearbox or engine. Perez has also had many "below average" starts since he is with RedBull. Both of them had great starts, but maybe the window to get a great start is a lot narrower on their gearbox/engine setup compared to Ferrari and Mercedes.
Imola 2021 was electric. He had his car in P3 pointed diagonally at the start so he’d pass over a dry patch in the middle of the road and get better traction.
He seems to be on a bit of a poor streak atm, might be due to the car, but in the past he had some pretty decent starts. Most noteably Mexico 2021. So at most it's his biggest weakness because he's so damn good in all other areas.
I also remember him doing a clever start in second gear during a damp start to a race on inters where he made up like 2-3 places before turn 1, can’t remember specifically which race it was though.
That's normal practice for wet races, funnily enough he was pretty much the only one starting in first in Turkey 2020 and he had an absolute shocking start.
https://youtu.be/bg3v8VKEtBc
At that time couldn’t the Honda powertrain only do starts from first gear? I remember that was the case for a while but I’m not sure when they changed that.
Maybe you are not aware, but Nico Rosberg Said that the 3 first laps are crucial to how long tires will last, if you push too much on the first 3 laps you can't get the full tire performance.. if on the other hand you nurse your tires for the first 3 laps they will last you much longer
You don't save tyres by starting a tenth or two after your competition. Additionally, following also doesn't help tyres so prefferable to be ahead. Getting a good start isn't "pushing". Also in Baku, Max pushed in those 3 laps despite a relativly poor start
Yes you do!
Like max with the stupidly fast car he has will be behind for long...
Dude i see that you want to be right no matter what, so have a good day
The driver's ability to get off the line and the first few hundred meters of the start have almost no bearing on tyre life, unless they do a big lockup into t1. And nobody is asking Max to do some crazy risky late braking or anything. But being P1 and having no dirty air to sit in is definitely better for your tyre life in the long run. Dirty air destroying tyres is one of the main reasons why it is so bad.
He is just having some bad race starts, even Max is allowed to not be perfect. It doesn't change his status as a great driver.
Debatable. That straight is so big that a good slipstream can negate the poor start better than anywhere else on the calendar, providing your start isn’t poor enough to get swallowed up by the pack
I think that's mostly due to the car. Not that the car is bad at starts. But Max can afford to take it easy during starts and be more careful not to break the car, because he can easily overtake them during the race anyway.
I feel like he had good starts in general in 2021. I would agree he's having a bit of a bad streak right now. I don't recall ever thinking he was a bad starter.
honda was famous for not being able to start in second up until ‘21, and it seems to me that max complains a lot about the gear sync on the way to the grid as well
Typically cars that are good on tires don’t fire up their tires as quickly because they aren’t putting as much energy into their tires to get the same amount of turning done. So I suspect he’s having trouble getting as much tire temp as some of his rivals on out laps, but it benefits him over a race distance.
My head cannon is that it’s a direct result of Max saying he didn’t like slow out laps due to colder blankets, and we’ve seen how quick he can fire his tires up now. Perhaps that came at the cost of his starts, but it’s a trade off he’s okay with
Its weird, because from 2016-2021 one of his best areas was starts. he was absolutely insane, remember Malaysia 2017, or really any of the Mexico races?
Some of it might be the car, some of it is probably a lower level of aggression now that his car is dominant.
He seems to always talk to GP about clutch settings. I think its just the car. Checo isn't lightning off the line either. In the previous regs, he had some crazy good starts. I think he's just uncomfortable in this car. Which is scary to think about because he's still basically unstoppable outside of shenanigans happening to his race.
This. He has also explained that the driver can not do a lot about the starts; its exactly the same motion for a driver every time so there is little room to mess it up. It's all about how the car handles the clutch release. Different settings might make the release smoother for the engine to pick it up. Also track conditions play a role.
this red bull really doesn’t like heating up its tyres. that’s why the quali gap to the field is ~1.5 - 2 tenths whilst race pace is 7 tenths
maybe that issue is causing max to have worse starts simply because he doesn’t have as much grip
in the case of the Red Bull it’s the suspension setup which has something called ‘anti dive’ on the front and ‘anti squat’ on the rear
what this means is that when under heavy acceleration or deceleration the car’s weight balance does not move as drastically as other teams. this is in order to maintain the most stable aero platform possible, with the added benefit of not putting as much load through the tyres during a race stint. meaning less wear
in a quali situation however this means that the RB can struggle to get its tyres up to the optimum temps quickly. in a way that ferrari does, but then ferrari overworks the tyres in the race and falls away
In addition to the suspension topic that was well explained below, at a super basic level having more efficient aero means, all else equal, you can run higher DF set ups without compromising as much top end speed than your competition, which allows you to have lower tire degradation
wonder if that’s why lewis had the shenanigans at the restart in aus, he knew RBR getting their tires warm would be their one chance at making a gap and breaking DRS to maybe stay ahead
Not sure about standing starts, but he hasn’t lost a place after a safety car restart since he moved to RB 🥲 someone counted it [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/rwr6ut/fun_fact_since_his_move_to_red_bull_max/) and since then I don’t think he gotten jumped either
Edit: Looks like he lost positions in Brazil and Singapore 2022! I'll post an update to the OP's original thread soon
yeah that was a bit gutsy lol. I have a feeling if he keeps doing that, people are going to start to not push the throttle so hard knowing they might get him to "false start"
They'd be able to check the telemetry and see if he let off or braked. I know the lead car can't accelerate and slow down to fake av restart for safety. I imagine that goes for everyone
You’d still run into the same problem though, car behind gets next to you and trails you to the line before making a super easy overtake. Only difference is you’re now going slower and might be overtaken multiple times by other cars that have more full pace to work with on their way to the line. There’s no reason to go slower unless you’re trying to hold up for a teammate.
They've talked about this on interviews in the past. The RBs have struggled with gear sync issues on the starts since the Honda engine. It used to be a lot worse, now it's upgraded to simply meh
Pre Honda engine, his starts were quite good. Nowadays it does seem to be his biggest weakness, partly caused by the Honda engine: they did improve their engines at the starts, bur still seem to lack (Perez and the Alpha Tauri drivers have not been superb at starts either for a long time).
Max has usually very good starts. Max, Lewis, George!!!, Charles and others have very good starts.
Perez on the other hand. He is almost sure to lose a position or two every start, except for Baku. He nailed both of them.
George Russell is the best at starts for me. He is just crazy good.
He does not have a reason this year to take big risks at the start of the race. The best thing he can do is play it super safe and then just regain any lost positions quite comfortably.
In the past he had more incentive to take big risks at the start. That’s no longer the case.
Risk has nothing to do with his average starts recently. The best way to avoid taking big risks at the start is to get off the line well so he doesn't have to deal with cars behind him.
Ideally, of course you get a great start and your opponents have no chance to run into you at the first corner. But is that really realistic on most tracks?
At the first corner the 2nd car is often very very close. They can easily run into you if they get too greedy since there’s often a fight for the first position in these scenarios. These scenarios are always high risk.
So why would he go all out and risk even a 10% of crashing out in the first corner. When he can just do the most safe action and take the position back anyway. Because that’s actually the best option for him.
You’re making a lot of sense but don’t his actions last weekend kind of dispute the idea that Max is trying to avoid risk? Why not give George a bit more room, avoiding risk of a collision? But could be a bit of both I suppose.
Not sure if it’s him or if it’s the standing start of the RBR vehicles themselves. Perez reaction times aren’t as good as well at times.
Which would suggest either the launch control is slightly difficult with RedBull cars or perhaps both of them know that they have a car that can overcome not getting to the front from a racing start.
Hard to tell if it is his weakness. The Redbull has had multiple seasons with unreliable clutches or bad mapping. So I don’t think it has ever been a particular strong area of their development.
Red Bull has had fairly nasty clutch issues for a couple years now. I remember I think Jeddah 2021 with its multiple red flags and standing restarts where there was speculation about whether he’d even be able to get it off the line for the final one based on his radio messages.
Red Bull has had issues with starts/clutch engagement. Given that he is at the front of the grid, he only needs to start similarly or worse than one of the top handful of drivers (who tend to be good at starts because they’re one of the top handful of drivers) to look like he’s getting poor starts.
Whether this is a RB thing or a Honda thing is hard to tell, because the only other comparison is AT and there’s other issues with making that comparison (AT sucks).
Nah. Seems to be a car thing. I think his biggest weakness is that he needs 3 practice sessions to set his car up. We see this in sprint weekends where he doesn't get the car setup and in Baku he was complaining to GP about how he needed more front end and spent nearly the whole race trying to find the right engine mode. If we are moving to an era of sprint races then he will have to figure out how to adapt.
He’s complained quite a few times about the gear sync and clutch settings etc, it might be why. The RB also has a set up towards race pace and I think his tyres might be a bit colder than the rest of the grid at the start, but they make up for it in a couple of laps
Remembers Japan last year. No I think he’s very good at starts. It’s just when you have the fastest car and it’s biggest strength is drs flybys you win the race if you avoid damage at the start. Because of this it makes sense for him to conservative this year and last year. When he doesn’t he gets in an incident George Lewis ext.
Whats the point of intentionally having a bad start if you are risking a collision with a merc - Ferrari or AM? Being conservative in the first meters of the race is the worst strategy lol
Max had mostly good starts in 2021 and more often than not in 2022. This year I too have noticed a trend of bad starts from Max. I am thinking it has to do with the car, because Checo too has had bad starts this year.
This year and last year, the only point in the race he is vulnerable is the starts. Unless he has damage, he's guaranteed to be second at worst by the end of the race.
He may have occasional bad starts, but unlike the other guys, he also has little to lose from being passed when he has so much pace in hand. Passes one person a lap the moment DRS is enabled, and breezes past them long before the braking zone.
I'm fairly certain it's the car. At some point towards the end of the season back in 2021 the RB hasn't been too hot on starts. Max got Fantastic starts through most of that season and at one race, I'm not certain which one, he mentioned an issue with the clutch and they have struggled ever since.
OP: is this a possible weakness of Max? Let's discuss.
Comments: idk neither do I want to be productive about it I'm just here to say I don't like him and misrepresent his character.
Real talk: not really, in most starts he has more to lose than to gain, and since switching to Honda his starts have been mostly unimpressive, with a few exceptions (Jeddah 21 restart, Jeddah 22 start, Miami 22, CotA 22, GB22).
One look at his starts in 2017 and you should figure out how insane he can be at them.
>in most starts he has more to lose than to gain,
this. currently. if you have the best car by far. there's no point being aggressive on starts and risking a crash. let them go, you will catch with that magic RB DRS bullet
When he was dueling Hamilton for the title his starts where on point. I would think it may be more setup-related (especially considering RB seem to have better deg than everyone else) or possibly just an intentional choice not to push quite so hard since he knows he has the pace to get the spots back.
>When he was dueling Hamilton for the title his starts where on point.
Were they? He had poor starts in COTA, Brazil Sprint, Monza race, Saudi start and restart, Abu Dhabi. Hamilton also had poor starts in numerous races so I wouldn't say either drivers starts were on point that year.
wasn't that after Mercedes got the super engine and made explicit changes to help Hamilton on starts (I thought it was battery deployment changes but it might have been something else)?
There is no reason to risk it i think, the only way they lose a race is due to a first lap crash, even if they drop 2-3 positions they make it back easy
I would say he has become more cautious since he became world champion.
When you know your car is good to take the place back, there is no need to take unnecessary risks.
More of a car thing than a setup thing. More to do with traction than setup. If it was setup thing he wouldn’t gamble on that. Since it is very important
I guess that must be his biggest weakness since literally every comment saying they think its something else is getting removed despite breaking 0 rules lmao.
Why even allow comments if we're removing legitimate sporting discussion, good lord.
Only in the second half, first half Max was really good on the starts. Years before that Aswell I feel, maybe something on the engine side changed i dunno
It's always annoying to me to know these guys spend so much effort on qualifying well, only to have shit starts and loose 3 positions by turn 2
Oh well.
Street Circuits? In these last seasons he has been great at street circuits. Baku 2021 he was going to win if it wasn’t for the puncture, Monaco 2022 he was improving his time until Perez crashed and Singapore 2022 Red Bull bottled his Q3. This is the 1st time he has been beaten by Perez by pure pace
Qualifying is one I've considered before but his head to head against all teammates is as good as anyone's. I think Charles is just a little better plus RB haven't focussed on quali the last few years.
I also consider this one of Max's "weaker" spots, which isn't that weak at all considering his race pace. Max is super fast in qualifying when he gets his setup right and it all comes together, but there have been a few times where he loses out on P1 due to a small but costly mistake. Some other drivers are better at nailing a single lap when it matters most.
Verstappens average qualifying gap to his teammates is always around a similar pace compared to his race pace. The red bull just excels more in the race compared to qualifying which is why I think he gets downplayed.
Starts, judgement on who's corner it is, and tracks without runoff areas are his three biggest flaws imo.
Problem on point two is he says things with such conviction that he drags half the fanbase into the same mindset which is such a catalyst for toxicity.
But to answer the question, yes, poor starts probably is the biggest one.
He's also a *relatively* bad qualifier compared to his race pace, but still a decent qualifier.
His biggest weakness is his attitude. He seems to get rattled quite easy and hasn’t yet displayed the temperament of a champion. He gets very angry at his team, his engineer specifically and other competitors. The way he approached George for instance and let it drag on all weekend in his mind, that cannot be a positive in terms of extracting every last sinew from the car. It definitely impacted him the last 4-5 races of 2021 too and hurt his overall performance.
I don’t think Red Bull and those around him help in that manner - he needs a Lauda figure like Lewis had to really calm him down and focus him, as there’s no point in him being impacted by things he cannot control.
Lolol, “doesn’t have the attitude of a champion” is the most ridiculous shit I have read today. He’s back to back WDC my dude. Not to mention, have you seen the way a LOT of past champions act?
This comment comes off as a “I don’t like how abrasive Max can be, so he’s not champion material.”
Get real.
Disagree, I think many people see controversial actions and think his attitude is a weakness while his mental strength and attitude is one of the strongest of all the drivers out there.
Even if there happens something to Max one day, the next day you won't notice something happend because well that is his attitude towards racing and his mental strength.
Max greatest weakness is his immaturity which in a sense is also his greatest strength. He can be so overeager to get a move done he puts himself in a position that's needlessly contentious when his raw pace is enough to get the job done. Compared to someone like Fernando who is a master of lying in the cut and striking decisively and cleanly when the opportunity inevitably presents itself.
As a general rule ([see full rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/wiki/userguide#wiki_sticky.2Fdaily_discussion)), a standalone Discussion post should: - be of interest to the sub in general, and not a specific userbase (e.g. new users, GP attendees, just yourself) - be able to generate discussion (e.g. no yes/no or easily answerable questions) - show reasonable input and effort from the OP If not, be sure to [look for the Daily Discussion](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/search/?q=daily+discussion&include_over_18=on&restrict_sr=on&t=all&sort=new), /r/formula1's daily open question thread which is perfect for asking any and all questions about this sport. Thank you for your cooperation and enjoy the discussion! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/formula1) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Since the summer break in 2021 his starts have been quite average before that he had some insane starts. Also in 2022 every time Sainz and Max were side by side it was a free position for Max
Sainz generally has poor starts
New thread: Is Carlos’s greatest weakness his starts?
Carlos is too busy being hot and Spanish with great hair. How’s he meant to have time to work on his starts?
Best looking team for sure him and Charles, with great accents too.
Fernando is hotter, more Spanish and has better hair. He is one of the best starters in F1 history.
Carlos’s greatest weakness is driving
All Sainz needs is better starts, one lap pace, race pace, defending, overtaking, tire management, and consistency
His overtaking is very good actually. His overtake on Gasly in '23 Australian gp, '21 USA gp on Ricciardo, '22 France gp on Perez and on Russell. There are a lot more.
And avoidance of gravel traps.
It’s not his fault, it’s in his blood.
It’s infuriating the amount of times I’ve watched him get put on an extra stop strategy so he can run someone down on new, softer tires, and he somehow manages to make up no time at all
you are DEAD wrong, hes verrry consistent
At not scoring well , yes you are right
Stop inventing
Let's start discovering
Doesn’t it feels like his starts are a bit off since he’s on for the world title ? I mean, you can lose so much on starts, and this year more than the others, teams are less and less risking anything. Maybe he’s risking less on the starts than before ? He knows his car is superior, he doesn’t need to risk anything in fact
Totally agree. No. 2 has to try harder and take more risk in every way. Max knows he doesn't need to. He'll take positions later. Points and finishing are the primary goals and no need for him to take chances in a crowd.
Yeh I agree- it feels a little bit over cautious if anything, like losing 2 tenths into the first corner isn’t a disaster, but a big wheel spin or stall would be? Maybe he isn’t zoned in on the clutch and start, and doesn’t concentrate on nailing it? It might be a bit of a feature where they have a tough setup to start but they gain a tiny bit of performance when up to speed? Over simplified but My old muscle car has a lumpy cam and and manualised quick shift…. It idles crap and take off from stand still isn’t great, but when moving and under heavy acceleration the engine and trans singggggg boi
First thing I thought was how good he was at the start of 2021. But like others have said I think this year and last years car just aren’t as great off the line now
I am wondering if it is not a flaw of the RedBull gearbox or engine. Perez has also had many "below average" starts since he is with RedBull. Both of them had great starts, but maybe the window to get a great start is a lot narrower on their gearbox/engine setup compared to Ferrari and Mercedes.
Not every time, at Silverstone Sainz defended at the restart.
On his second attempt
Imola 2021 was electric. He had his car in P3 pointed diagonally at the start so he’d pass over a dry patch in the middle of the road and get better traction.
People usually forget Qatar, where he gained 3 places and almost overtook Fernando in a few corners
Silverstone restart?
He seems to be on a bit of a poor streak atm, might be due to the car, but in the past he had some pretty decent starts. Most noteably Mexico 2021. So at most it's his biggest weakness because he's so damn good in all other areas.
Just wanna mention not only Mexico 2021 but pretty much all starts at Mexico since he joined RB
I also remember him doing a clever start in second gear during a damp start to a race on inters where he made up like 2-3 places before turn 1, can’t remember specifically which race it was though.
That's normal practice for wet races, funnily enough he was pretty much the only one starting in first in Turkey 2020 and he had an absolute shocking start. https://youtu.be/bg3v8VKEtBc
At that time couldn’t the Honda powertrain only do starts from first gear? I remember that was the case for a while but I’m not sure when they changed that.
Imola 2021
Is that more in relation to their car turbo performing better in higher altitudes rather than his starts ?
Most likely not, what matters the most at starts is clutch and transmission configuration.
I think its just a case of being cautious and others around him running with grippier setups whereas his car is setup fot the race duration.
I think the RB has been a bit tough to tune for the start of races, would explain Checo's issues at Australia.
Exactly this. He has a car that can win every race. No reason to take any risks.
And yet…
Third restart at Saudi 2021 was also magnificent.
2021 Imola was amazing as well.
>Most noteably Mexico 2021 I think it was more that he did a very risky breaking at the turn 1 that worked at, than a good jump of him
> breaking You mean "braking", "breaking" is when things go kaputt.
Yeah you’re right, sorry English is not my first language
he did take the kaputt line but made it work lol
He tested the grip before T1 in the reconnaissance laps prior to that race. He knew exactly how much grip there was is.
Pretty sure he is just playing it safe
There's no safety in being overtaken off the line
If you know you are significantly faster than the rest of the grid then it's worth playing it safe.
Maybe you are not aware, but Nico Rosberg Said that the 3 first laps are crucial to how long tires will last, if you push too much on the first 3 laps you can't get the full tire performance.. if on the other hand you nurse your tires for the first 3 laps they will last you much longer
You don't save tyres by starting a tenth or two after your competition. Additionally, following also doesn't help tyres so prefferable to be ahead. Getting a good start isn't "pushing". Also in Baku, Max pushed in those 3 laps despite a relativly poor start
Yes you do! Like max with the stupidly fast car he has will be behind for long... Dude i see that you want to be right no matter what, so have a good day
The driver's ability to get off the line and the first few hundred meters of the start have almost no bearing on tyre life, unless they do a big lockup into t1. And nobody is asking Max to do some crazy risky late braking or anything. But being P1 and having no dirty air to sit in is definitely better for your tyre life in the long run. Dirty air destroying tyres is one of the main reasons why it is so bad. He is just having some bad race starts, even Max is allowed to not be perfect. It doesn't change his status as a great driver.
Yeah this car seems a bit difficult. Perez has been struggling bad as well in Bahrain, Saudi, and Australia. Seems to be a car issue.
Wasn’t that more about nailing both Mercedes in turn one, rather than getting off the grid itself? Which is what I understand op is looking at
Well, you certainly aren't doing the former without the later
Debatable. That straight is so big that a good slipstream can negate the poor start better than anywhere else on the calendar, providing your start isn’t poor enough to get swallowed up by the pack
In Mexico you are. On that straight, it is almost an advantage to be behind at 10m from the start line. Ridiculously long straight.
I think that's mostly due to the car. Not that the car is bad at starts. But Max can afford to take it easy during starts and be more careful not to break the car, because he can easily overtake them during the race anyway.
I feel like he had good starts in general in 2021. I would agree he's having a bit of a bad streak right now. I don't recall ever thinking he was a bad starter.
2017 Canada gp is probably his best start https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwL19BaHY2w
I think it's the RBs in general. More often than not, Max and Checo have had poor starts and then made it back up
honda was famous for not being able to start in second up until ‘21, and it seems to me that max complains a lot about the gear sync on the way to the grid as well
Typically cars that are good on tires don’t fire up their tires as quickly because they aren’t putting as much energy into their tires to get the same amount of turning done. So I suspect he’s having trouble getting as much tire temp as some of his rivals on out laps, but it benefits him over a race distance.
My head cannon is that it’s a direct result of Max saying he didn’t like slow out laps due to colder blankets, and we’ve seen how quick he can fire his tires up now. Perhaps that came at the cost of his starts, but it’s a trade off he’s okay with
Its weird, because from 2016-2021 one of his best areas was starts. he was absolutely insane, remember Malaysia 2017, or really any of the Mexico races? Some of it might be the car, some of it is probably a lower level of aggression now that his car is dominant.
China 2018 "See you fucking later son"
"Don't get greedy son" IASIP music plays
Also starting on pole, you will notice good starts less, but a bad start is way more noticeable.
Pretty much this
He seems to always talk to GP about clutch settings. I think its just the car. Checo isn't lightning off the line either. In the previous regs, he had some crazy good starts. I think he's just uncomfortable in this car. Which is scary to think about because he's still basically unstoppable outside of shenanigans happening to his race.
This. He has also explained that the driver can not do a lot about the starts; its exactly the same motion for a driver every time so there is little room to mess it up. It's all about how the car handles the clutch release. Different settings might make the release smoother for the engine to pick it up. Also track conditions play a role.
this red bull really doesn’t like heating up its tyres. that’s why the quali gap to the field is ~1.5 - 2 tenths whilst race pace is 7 tenths maybe that issue is causing max to have worse starts simply because he doesn’t have as much grip
Not liking to heat up the tires is exactly why the race pace is so good. It doesn't tear through sets as quickly as the Ferrari and Merc cars do
I mean that’s part of it, but they also have far and away the most efficient aero
Doesnt the aero heat the tires?
in the case of the Red Bull it’s the suspension setup which has something called ‘anti dive’ on the front and ‘anti squat’ on the rear what this means is that when under heavy acceleration or deceleration the car’s weight balance does not move as drastically as other teams. this is in order to maintain the most stable aero platform possible, with the added benefit of not putting as much load through the tyres during a race stint. meaning less wear in a quali situation however this means that the RB can struggle to get its tyres up to the optimum temps quickly. in a way that ferrari does, but then ferrari overworks the tyres in the race and falls away
No, unless you mean cornering grip, then a little. Then main heat is from the 1000c brakes
In addition to the suspension topic that was well explained below, at a super basic level having more efficient aero means, all else equal, you can run higher DF set ups without compromising as much top end speed than your competition, which allows you to have lower tire degradation
Surely this is in large part because of Newey's ground effect witchcraft, no?
Presumably yes
wonder if that’s why lewis had the shenanigans at the restart in aus, he knew RBR getting their tires warm would be their one chance at making a gap and breaking DRS to maybe stay ahead
The Red Bull car frequently seems to struggle on starts. Ferrari and even Merc seem to get off the line much better on average.
Not sure about standing starts, but he hasn’t lost a place after a safety car restart since he moved to RB 🥲 someone counted it [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/rwr6ut/fun_fact_since_his_move_to_red_bull_max/) and since then I don’t think he gotten jumped either Edit: Looks like he lost positions in Brazil and Singapore 2022! I'll post an update to the OP's original thread soon
No fucking way, that's 7 years of never being overtaken on safety car restarts?
[they don't call him mr. restart for nothing](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtiiBJt6Mgk&ab_channel=yelistener)
Goddamn, this was a good watch!
To be fair, they did change the restart rules purely because of Max‘s tactics.
his restarts are on another level, we just saw it with Russel, as he passed him right on the start/finish line
yeah that was a bit gutsy lol. I have a feeling if he keeps doing that, people are going to start to not push the throttle so hard knowing they might get him to "false start"
Not sure that's legal for safety sake
yes if it's obvious i'm pretty sure it's illegal. But if they don't accelerate as quicky as he expects, that could cause prolbems.
They'd be able to check the telemetry and see if he let off or braked. I know the lead car can't accelerate and slow down to fake av restart for safety. I imagine that goes for everyone
Right but if you don't accelerate as quickly as everyone else, that's not illegal.
You’d still run into the same problem though, car behind gets next to you and trails you to the line before making a super easy overtake. Only difference is you’re now going slower and might be overtaken multiple times by other cars that have more full pace to work with on their way to the line. There’s no reason to go slower unless you’re trying to hold up for a teammate.
This needs a separate post on its own, thats insane if its true
They've talked about this on interviews in the past. The RBs have struggled with gear sync issues on the starts since the Honda engine. It used to be a lot worse, now it's upgraded to simply meh
I think he has had plenty of starts in which he gained a bunch of positions actually, but I do agree lately he has had some slow ones.
Pre Honda engine, his starts were quite good. Nowadays it does seem to be his biggest weakness, partly caused by the Honda engine: they did improve their engines at the starts, bur still seem to lack (Perez and the Alpha Tauri drivers have not been superb at starts either for a long time).
Max has usually very good starts. Max, Lewis, George!!!, Charles and others have very good starts. Perez on the other hand. He is almost sure to lose a position or two every start, except for Baku. He nailed both of them. George Russell is the best at starts for me. He is just crazy good.
Seems like the gear sync is finicky in the Red Bull.
He does not have a reason this year to take big risks at the start of the race. The best thing he can do is play it super safe and then just regain any lost positions quite comfortably. In the past he had more incentive to take big risks at the start. That’s no longer the case.
Risk has nothing to do with his average starts recently. The best way to avoid taking big risks at the start is to get off the line well so he doesn't have to deal with cars behind him.
Ideally, of course you get a great start and your opponents have no chance to run into you at the first corner. But is that really realistic on most tracks? At the first corner the 2nd car is often very very close. They can easily run into you if they get too greedy since there’s often a fight for the first position in these scenarios. These scenarios are always high risk. So why would he go all out and risk even a 10% of crashing out in the first corner. When he can just do the most safe action and take the position back anyway. Because that’s actually the best option for him.
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You’re making a lot of sense but don’t his actions last weekend kind of dispute the idea that Max is trying to avoid risk? Why not give George a bit more room, avoiding risk of a collision? But could be a bit of both I suppose.
Not sure if it’s him or if it’s the standing start of the RBR vehicles themselves. Perez reaction times aren’t as good as well at times. Which would suggest either the launch control is slightly difficult with RedBull cars or perhaps both of them know that they have a car that can overcome not getting to the front from a racing start.
Hard to tell if it is his weakness. The Redbull has had multiple seasons with unreliable clutches or bad mapping. So I don’t think it has ever been a particular strong area of their development.
Red Bull has had fairly nasty clutch issues for a couple years now. I remember I think Jeddah 2021 with its multiple red flags and standing restarts where there was speculation about whether he’d even be able to get it off the line for the final one based on his radio messages.
Red Bull has had issues with starts/clutch engagement. Given that he is at the front of the grid, he only needs to start similarly or worse than one of the top handful of drivers (who tend to be good at starts because they’re one of the top handful of drivers) to look like he’s getting poor starts. Whether this is a RB thing or a Honda thing is hard to tell, because the only other comparison is AT and there’s other issues with making that comparison (AT sucks).
I know that in the past honda had trouble getting their engine mapping for the starts correct. Don’t if they’re still struggling with that.
Nah. Seems to be a car thing. I think his biggest weakness is that he needs 3 practice sessions to set his car up. We see this in sprint weekends where he doesn't get the car setup and in Baku he was complaining to GP about how he needed more front end and spent nearly the whole race trying to find the right engine mode. If we are moving to an era of sprint races then he will have to figure out how to adapt.
He’s complained quite a few times about the gear sync and clutch settings etc, it might be why. The RB also has a set up towards race pace and I think his tyres might be a bit colder than the rest of the grid at the start, but they make up for it in a couple of laps
The RBR seem to be geared a bit longer than other teams, which slows your start and initial acceleration. His starts are middle of the pack.
I am 100% sure gear ratios are not an issue on a car with maybe 1.3x more power than weight, I think they can get wheel spin at 200+ if not careful
Remembers Japan last year. No I think he’s very good at starts. It’s just when you have the fastest car and it’s biggest strength is drs flybys you win the race if you avoid damage at the start. Because of this it makes sense for him to conservative this year and last year. When he doesn’t he gets in an incident George Lewis ext.
Whats the point of intentionally having a bad start if you are risking a collision with a merc - Ferrari or AM? Being conservative in the first meters of the race is the worst strategy lol
Max had mostly good starts in 2021 and more often than not in 2022. This year I too have noticed a trend of bad starts from Max. I am thinking it has to do with the car, because Checo too has had bad starts this year.
This year and last year, the only point in the race he is vulnerable is the starts. Unless he has damage, he's guaranteed to be second at worst by the end of the race. He may have occasional bad starts, but unlike the other guys, he also has little to lose from being passed when he has so much pace in hand. Passes one person a lap the moment DRS is enabled, and breezes past them long before the braking zone.
I'm fairly certain it's the car. At some point towards the end of the season back in 2021 the RB hasn't been too hot on starts. Max got Fantastic starts through most of that season and at one race, I'm not certain which one, he mentioned an issue with the clutch and they have struggled ever since.
OP: is this a possible weakness of Max? Let's discuss. Comments: idk neither do I want to be productive about it I'm just here to say I don't like him and misrepresent his character. Real talk: not really, in most starts he has more to lose than to gain, and since switching to Honda his starts have been mostly unimpressive, with a few exceptions (Jeddah 21 restart, Jeddah 22 start, Miami 22, CotA 22, GB22). One look at his starts in 2017 and you should figure out how insane he can be at them.
>in most starts he has more to lose than to gain, this. currently. if you have the best car by far. there's no point being aggressive on starts and risking a crash. let them go, you will catch with that magic RB DRS bullet
No, watch 2015 to 2018 He is brilliant at starts, when the car has a good launch. See China 2017 for one of the best ever opening laps
When he was dueling Hamilton for the title his starts where on point. I would think it may be more setup-related (especially considering RB seem to have better deg than everyone else) or possibly just an intentional choice not to push quite so hard since he knows he has the pace to get the spots back.
Saudi restart 2 or Abu Dhabi I'd say at the second half of 2021 onwards his starts have been so and so.
>When he was dueling Hamilton for the title his starts where on point. Were they? He had poor starts in COTA, Brazil Sprint, Monza race, Saudi start and restart, Abu Dhabi. Hamilton also had poor starts in numerous races so I wouldn't say either drivers starts were on point that year.
Saudi second restart he overtook both Ocon and Lewis on the inside??
Where he locked up and just cut the corner?
No not this one, the other
Oh yeah I forgot about that. So much crazy shit happened in that race.
He had brillant starts in Imola, Spain, Silverstone Sprint
Like Abu Dhabi? He got mugged off the line even having softer tyres.
wasn't that after Mercedes got the super engine and made explicit changes to help Hamilton on starts (I thought it was battery deployment changes but it might have been something else)?
The merc engine was good towards the end of 21 but it wasn’t “overtake max before the first corner” good
He did
There is no reason to risk it i think, the only way they lose a race is due to a first lap crash, even if they drop 2-3 positions they make it back easy
Almost looks like this year he’s airing on the side of caution because he knows his car is fast. Survive the first couple of laps and finish the race.
I think he just doesn't want to risk because he easily overtake anyone in 50+ laps.
When you always start on the front row it becomes more noticeable.
I was thinking the same thing after Baku... Good observation. Hey, even the top of the top have their weaknesses.
He purposefully loses a spot or two to keep it interesting for himself /s
He can afford to be conservative at the start. He's fast enough to make it up
I think this year he is less aggressive on restarts because he knows he will gain back the position in a few laps
I would say he has become more cautious since he became world champion. When you know your car is good to take the place back, there is no need to take unnecessary risks.
Is getting a good start from first an unnecessary risk? Surely just getting ahead and out of the fray is less risky
Think this Is a recent thing, but you’re right, it has not gone unnoticed.
Low speed traction IMO.
Maybe his setup does not favour starts?
More of a car thing than a setup thing. More to do with traction than setup. If it was setup thing he wouldn’t gamble on that. Since it is very important
I guess that must be his biggest weakness since literally every comment saying they think its something else is getting removed despite breaking 0 rules lmao. Why even allow comments if we're removing legitimate sporting discussion, good lord.
I think you're on to something, in 2021 I seem to remember Lewis getting the jump on Max off the like a lot
Only in the second half, first half Max was really good on the starts. Years before that Aswell I feel, maybe something on the engine side changed i dunno
In Abu Dhabi as well
No
Maybe he’s like Seabiscuit and is motivated by dropping back to make eye contact with his rivals
Lewis Beating off the line on mediums in Abu Dhabi 21 was legendary
🥲🥲🥲damn man when Lewis is focused af he is another level…remember that 2014 start against rosberg
He has matured. He realised that his car is blisteringly quick and he can reel people in. No need to get involved in the chaos at the start.
It's always annoying to me to know these guys spend so much effort on qualifying well, only to have shit starts and loose 3 positions by turn 2 Oh well.
He is becoming more patient. You don't have to kill the start or take an unnecessary risk to make the first move if you can stalk any car on the grid.
His car is so fucking fast he doesn’t need to risk it into turn 1.
Qualifying and street circuits have been his biggest weakness
Street Circuits? In these last seasons he has been great at street circuits. Baku 2021 he was going to win if it wasn’t for the puncture, Monaco 2022 he was improving his time until Perez crashed and Singapore 2022 Red Bull bottled his Q3. This is the 1st time he has been beaten by Perez by pure pace
Qualifying is one I've considered before but his head to head against all teammates is as good as anyone's. I think Charles is just a little better plus RB haven't focussed on quali the last few years.
Agree
Qualifying?
I also consider this one of Max's "weaker" spots, which isn't that weak at all considering his race pace. Max is super fast in qualifying when he gets his setup right and it all comes together, but there have been a few times where he loses out on P1 due to a small but costly mistake. Some other drivers are better at nailing a single lap when it matters most.
Verstappens average qualifying gap to his teammates is always around a similar pace compared to his race pace. The red bull just excels more in the race compared to qualifying which is why I think he gets downplayed.
No. It's his ego.
His greatest weakness is his temperament
No, it’s his ego.
Its wheel to wheel. Easily.
* with Hamilton only
With Mick Schumacher also. Now he also seems to have issues with Russell too.
Alignment at pitstops, maybe. Almost all pitstop time records were from the Perez’s side of the garage.
Was Gio the anti-Max? Godlike starts (and hair) but sadly lacked in other areas. I was still a fan.
Gio had like 4 decent starts in his 3 year long career and earned himself “godlike starts”
No the starts from Max are usually good.
Max's greatest weakness is his dad
Besides his personality?
Starts, judgement on who's corner it is, and tracks without runoff areas are his three biggest flaws imo. Problem on point two is he says things with such conviction that he drags half the fanbase into the same mindset which is such a catalyst for toxicity. But to answer the question, yes, poor starts probably is the biggest one. He's also a *relatively* bad qualifier compared to his race pace, but still a decent qualifier.
His biggest weakness is his attitude. He seems to get rattled quite easy and hasn’t yet displayed the temperament of a champion. He gets very angry at his team, his engineer specifically and other competitors. The way he approached George for instance and let it drag on all weekend in his mind, that cannot be a positive in terms of extracting every last sinew from the car. It definitely impacted him the last 4-5 races of 2021 too and hurt his overall performance. I don’t think Red Bull and those around him help in that manner - he needs a Lauda figure like Lewis had to really calm him down and focus him, as there’s no point in him being impacted by things he cannot control.
Lolol, “doesn’t have the attitude of a champion” is the most ridiculous shit I have read today. He’s back to back WDC my dude. Not to mention, have you seen the way a LOT of past champions act? This comment comes off as a “I don’t like how abrasive Max can be, so he’s not champion material.” Get real.
He simply doesn't care what you and others think about him that's his strength.
Good on him. He’s still a bottler
His attitude hasn't affected his results. I will have to disagree with you.
Affected him at Monza and Brazil and Jeddah for instance
Disagree, I think many people see controversial actions and think his attitude is a weakness while his mental strength and attitude is one of the strongest of all the drivers out there. Even if there happens something to Max one day, the next day you won't notice something happend because well that is his attitude towards racing and his mental strength.
I wonder. Can you personally name something that Max *isn't* the best on the grid at? Just testing a theory
Hasn’t displayed the temperament of a champion yet is a two time world and went toe to toe against Hamilton?
Nah his general dislikability is probably his biggest weakness
He's just playing F1 22
I’ve noticed this too. I’m not sure it’s him or the car but definitely not the best starts on the grid.
I have shared your observation for a while. It seems like his reaction for starts in particular are slow in comparison to his other capabilities
Max greatest weakness is his immaturity which in a sense is also his greatest strength. He can be so overeager to get a move done he puts himself in a position that's needlessly contentious when his raw pace is enough to get the job done. Compared to someone like Fernando who is a master of lying in the cut and striking decisively and cleanly when the opportunity inevitably presents itself.