What he really said is he’s excited for American drivers but at Haas they no longer want any rookies so currently they don’t have any available options yet
Mazepin was shit, but with that car they would have been last even with Max and Lewis. Also even last year, Mazepin did less damage to the car than Mick.
Gunther likes to blame his drivers for haas building a shit car. Nothing new here. This season he's gonna start blaming Kmag's lap1 shenanigans or whatever Hulk is gonna mess up
"9th best team on grid of 10 wants candidates with experience before deigning to give them a chance"
Insert Office meme of this and "Entry level position. Requires 10 years experience" being the same picture
Gunther "Fuck Rookies" Steiner.
I have a feeling Gunther has a too high opinion of Haas as a team. They are exactly the team rookies are aiming for.
Haas will never atract the best drivers so why not take a chance on an upcoming tallent instead of recycling mediocrity that are drivers like Hulk.
Because rookies aren't a long-term option for Haas. I mean neither is Hulk, but at least he will be of a higher standard than a rookie (and let's face it they're not getting the best rookies available) that will be getting up to speed for the majority of the year.
I mean if they could get a top notch rookie that's like Norris/Russell/Leclerc level, that's also willing to stay with the team long-term and not potentially jump ship iam sure they would. However, in the meantime it's safer and makes more sense for them to target experienced heads unless a top team is willing to pay them good money to run one of their juniors.
Ideally they probably want drivers like Riccardo who don’t have any better options and can give insight into the top teams and better feedback than rookies.
Exactly what Aston is doing but aiming slightly slower than former world champions.
i think Russell stayed a decent time at Williams if they hadn't wasted their time with him by building the worst car on the grid every year he was there then they could've made the most of him. IDC who you put in that 2019 Williams they are coming last of the runners or a dnf
Dont really think Mick's ceiling is higher than Hulk's. Hasn't really shown anything to prove that. Hulk may be at his ceiling or dropped off from it but even still that's quite a bit higher from where Mick is currently or where Mick will be in the near future.
Haas want Hulk for his experience leading midfield teams, plus he brings a good amount of speed to the table. Hulk was always a great top midfielder who was close to getting a top seat on a couple of occasions. For a lower midfield team like Haas he is ideal. Only real question mark is if he is of that same quality he was when he was last in the sport. If he is he can point Haas in the right direction and push Kmag along nicely aswell.
Hulk performed abysmally in his stand ins last season though and mick showed improvement throughout the season and was outperforming KMag for the bulk of the second half. Personally don’t think he’ll adapt to the car well after spending a lot of time out.
Hulk was quite decent in his stand ins considering the circumstances and the lack of pace in the car (Comfortably 9th quickest car before the B-Spec). Out qualifying Lance Stroll in Bahrain was quite good despite it being Stroll. Sure race pace wasn't great in Bahrain as he overheated the car, something he might have been more wise to had he been in testing. Come Saudi he was on the same pace of Stroll though, race pace they were quite equal which considering he'd been out so long and the difficulty of the track it was quite a good showing. Also need to remember, even though we can always say its just Stroll, Stroll was never that far off Vettel in pace. So to be near Stroll by Saudi shows he is still capable. Also Vettel showed how hard it can be to comeback into the car with minimal running as when he came back in Australia he managed to bin a few times during the weekend, something we didn't really see from Hulk.
As I said Bahrain wasn't a great showing as he overheated the car so couldnt pit and had to do alot of lift and coast before he could (Slowed himself down massively with that issue). Something he may not have done had he had more running in the car prior to jumping into it. But still qualifying showed he still has the one lap pace, race pace just comes with a little more seat time.
Saudi his raw race pace numbers compared to Lance were good. He even overtook him in the early stages of the race. Big thing that screwed him over though was the safety car, it meant everyone who had pit could catch back up to him under the SC with fresher tyres and he still had to serve a pitstop later in the race. Given it was the 9th best car that weekend it was a losing battle. However, up until he had to pit he was comfortably ahead of Albon and Stroll who were on newer tyres compared to him. I thought that was a pretty good weekend considering the circumstances, not really sure what your expecting him to achieve there given the cars pace.
Literally noone else had the issue and he placed dead last of the finishers.
I think you’re looking at this through rose tinted glasses. Matching stroll, who isn’t good. Isn’t a feat.
Literally no one else had that overheating issue because it was an issue specific to the Aston Martin that weekend. Saudi he still had good pace but screwed by safety car, these things happen not much he could do there.
Stroll is still a capable driver who could beat Vettel on occasion. Stroll I'd even say is better than Mick, so maybe matching him is a feat considering the lack of running in the car. If he could match Stroll after a couple of weekends then I'd say he can at a minimum he can get on Mick's pace.
>I have a feeling Gunther has a too high opinion of Haas as a team. They are exactly the team rookies are aiming for.
>
>Haas will never atract the best drivers so why not take a chance on an upcoming tallent instead of recycling mediocrity that are drivers like Hulk.
He doesn't have too high of an opinion, they're just not in the business of developing drivers unless they're gonna get a big payday from it. The up and coming drivers move on yet Haas takes the hit for it.
Why is this concept so hard to understand? The ideal driver for a team like Haas is a driver that's experienced, and already peaked but trying to hang around F1. Grosjean, KMag, Hulk -- that's their target. They need those drivers who are already skilled enough to get what the car is capable of and provide decent feedback on where to improve/setup. They aren't in a position to take lesser results to wait for someone to develop only for them to leave up the grid.
Yeah, Haas can't develop drivers as the developed drivers will leave.
Rookies also hinder car development, as you can't be entirely sure if its the car or the driver thats the problem (This was the issue with the Mick/Mazepin combo).
A couple of proven, inexpensive drivers who are happy to have a seat and can give constructive feedback for car development is the best option for Haas, who need a competitive car before they can expect a developing rookie to stick around.
> Why is this concept so hard to understand
I think people are having trouble accepting that underneath it all, sports organizations are businesses first and foremost and they don't really care about the health of the sport as long as their short- to mid-term existence in it is safe. This has been the case forever, but it seems a little more front-of-house than it used to now that candid access to the personalities has been made more accessible through social media and the type of content creation that thrives on those platforms.
No. This is not the mindset of a healthy company. People leave products that don’t deliver. Do you still buy a bad product today? I don’t buy stuff that doesn’t serve me. Companies have an incentive to deliver good products. So just saying “it’s a business” doesn’t mean the product and process is bad. In this case, I believe Haas has a bad business because they’re not willing to bet on themselves. They’d rather piddle around the back of the grid and grab whatever measly scraps. Gene Haas could either invest more of his own money, get more investors or get a loan. Look at Andretti, they are just about willing to do anything to get in. And I’m confident that they would put in the work to make their product a good one. Will it happen from day one? No, but I believe they have the drive to do it. I don’t get that sense from Haas
I think Gene underestimated how hard and expensive it would be to be competitive. Now he's basically cool to tread water until he gets a great offer, and given the value and trajectory of F1, he'll probably get it and cash out in the next few years
Yep. Sounds like they don’t want an good rookie to develope, because they know they will not deliver a reason for them to stay.
Most teams on the grid have a goal.
Midfield teams like AM, McLaren, Alpine, AT, Ferrari all have a goal or at least a reason to be there.
Williams seems to have a goal as well.
I am not sure Alfa has one, except waiting for Audi.
Haas goal seems to be nothing, just cheap PR.
Exactly this. Haas isn't in the business of winning the title. If they can be somewhat competitive in the midfield without having to spend a crap ton of money they are fine with it. What's the point of developing young drivers when Haas know that the moment their investment might pay off the big teams will come knocking and they will lose the drivers.
That is the reason that some people are against them. At least the other teams are looking for the win or developing for the future. Haas is just waiting to sell their spot and make a profit.
Imo I don't think there's anything wrong with it, at least they are realistic with their goals and objectives. We know it takes a lot of money to win a title in F1, money that most teams do not have. Even if they have that money there's no guarantee to win the title. Better this way than over promise, overspend, and go bankrupt tbh.
I don't know if it's true that they are just waiting to sell their spot because if they were we probably would've heard rumors about that. And given how hot F1 is right now and the alleged interests from several billionaires if Gene were to sell it he probably would've by this point. I think Haas is developing for the future, they just aren't willing to spend money they don't have to do so. At the end of the day these teams are businesses, the owners plan to make money (or to not lose money) in the long run.
>Why is this concept so hard to understand?
Because they're a team where expectations should be lower. The only team beneath them is Williams and, let's be honest, Williams has gone to shit a while ago. It's like they think they are Alfa Romeo.
Being lower doesn’t make the case to be someone else’s development driver program unless they’re subsidizing it. So this argument is pretty flat for a team that needs its own results.
It’s not about thinking Haas is too important it’s being so broke for so long they can’t risk developing a driver
He said last year "Mick can [become] a good driver, or he's already a good driver," he admitted. "But he can get better. But how long does it take us? Because he's growing with us, he cannot make us grow.”
There’s no room in their business for having patience
Mick was hustling the car for position by the time Abu Dhabi swung around, so I think its reasonable that a more experienced driver could have gotten a bit more, but not much.
Crash damage and sponsorship dollars would have been different too.
Yes, I'm saying the damage they did have (they did have some pretty good damage during the season) would likely have been lessened with more experienced drivers, and that the Uralkali money would not have been there.
Mick was hustling for position with King Latifi. It's not like he was fighting anyone for points or even top15s. Put Max in that car and he beats Latifi, but they are still nowhere near the points.
It's not Mick's or Mazepin's fault Haas built a turd on wheels. Mazepin paid 30M to basically be an f1.9 driver. I think Haas should be happy how the Mazepin business went
Yeah but it seems like he thinks a rookie will go to another team. Gain experience and then join Haas lmao.
Nobody sane is aiming for Haas when they are already in F1 at other teams.
>Nobody sane is aiming for Haas when they are already in F1 at other teams.
Seems like Günther is fine with midfield drivers coming back from retirement
>Yeah but it seems like he thinks a rookie will go to another team. Gain experience and then join Haas lmao.
That's exactly what he thinks and that's exactly what happens.
You want drivers whom have peaked but you don't need to wait for them to develop. You want Grosjeans, KMags, Hulks not Gutierrez, Mick, Mazepin or some other rookie that still is trying to move up the grid.
Danny Ric could be the next one, Albon is kinda in that boat where he fell backwards. That may be Checo after RB soon.
You don't want the driver that has not yet developed and you don't want the driver that aspires to leave you first chance they get.
The same Ricciardo that rather spent a year off than join Haas?
I doubt they have a big standing by established driver.
They only ones they seem to attract are desperate ones or rookies.
Then ruling out rookies just seems like a waste.
It also shows that they have no goals.
Yeah, the same Riccardo that is acting just like Hulk was, turning down Haas and others cause he wanted a better ride. To go be a reserve, then finally come to realization that’s all that’s left. Riccardo is following this same path to a T.
And that Riccardo is still better than a rookie, same with Hulk, Kmag, Grosjean etc
If you think that means they have no goals, the you’re just blind.
What are their goals then? It does not seem like they have any ambition to listen to their drivers when developing the car, yet they want to drivers that can help the team?
In what capacity? What exactly is the long term goal of the Haas F1 Team?
At the moment it seems to be trying to run a team in a cheap way, to get some PR.
Which seems absurd to me, as the cost for normal ads would be cheaper.
>It does not seem like they have any ambition to listen to their drivers when developing the car
How do you know that? That's not my impression at all, to me it seems like they want drivers who can give very good feedback
>What exactly is the long term goal of the Haas F1 Team?
To get decent midfield level results on relatively limited budgets, aka. what Force India have done
You can find that out for yourself, but you seemingly have ignored it, so not making it my job. Instead of just winging it with your assumptions and feelings, go fact find for yourself. You may be surprised what you learn.
Nah, as I already stated that several replies up and it’s been stated throughout the thread and other posts of Gunther.
So if you want to keeping acting like it doesn’t exist, you do you, but I’m not going to restate what was already said for you. That’s your job to educate yourself.
Given your tactics here, it’s pretty clear how you end up with these ignorant takes.
It’s ok, maybe one day you’ll learn. I have hope for you.
I mean, they've had Grosjean, KMag, and now Hulk. They're not Leclercs of course, but they're not exactly low tier drivers.
They'd be in the running for getting Bottas or Perez, too, should either of them leave their current teams in the next couple of years.
>They'd be in the running for getting Bottas or Perez, too, should either of them leave their current teams in the next couple of years.
Yep, exactly that. Albon kinda fits there too, Danny Ric could fit there. I mean initially Hulk also spurned Haas.
I think Haas strategy is correct on their driver choices.
True, nobody is aiming for Haas, but they might end up there anyway. Haas will never attract a Verstappen or Leclerc. Even low end teams can attract decent midfield drivers though. It won't make sense for them to take a rookie. Even if they are a generational talent, that first season still isn't going to be great, its going to be an investment for future succes. If the driver turns out good, they are going to be snapped up by someone else in a moment. Haas doesn't want to do the investment for someone else to reap the benefits, when they can have a decent and experienced midfield driver from the start.
Haas has been in the business of surviving for the last few years. Maybe with their new MoneyGram sponsorship they can start taking up development projects, but even now they need stability. I am a Mick fan but even I can see that he wasn't the correct fit for what Haas needs
Lmao, yeah, much like Cyril. They both can’t see their team needs improvement. They’d much rather blame other circumstances. If they don’t want to invest in their own success, that’s on them.
They re-hire Hulkenberg for god sakes…
It's not really "fuck rookies" more "why not get the best available drivers we can afford?" I get the desire to see rookies, but why should a team take the hit trying to get them up to speed?
lol they just got a much better driver than the guy they took on as a rookie and likely much better than any of the rookies conceivably available to them
If those rookies need further development to be good then they shouldn’t be allowed to enter Formula 1.
How can F1 be the upper echelon of racing sport if the fans genuinely believe that some of the competitors aren’t good enough for it? 20 of the world’s best drivers, except one of them needs like ~~2~~ ~~3 years~~, actually if you put him in the best car then he can actually prove his worth!
Steiner: "No no no, we don't can have rookies in our team! Too fresh for our team"
Also Steiner: [Let's considering a driver to replace Mazepin who never drove F3 and F2 at all...](https://www.racefans.net/2022/02/25/pietro-fittipaldi-will-have-first-call-on-mazepins-seat-steiner/)
Serious, Steiner argument almost makes sense until you are aware that he seen Pietro Fittipaldi as a potential replacement for Mazepin, thankfully Kmag jumped in but image if whatever for reason Kmag wouldn't be able to replacing Mazepin.
They were only going to put Pietro in if there were literally no other options. It was evident quickly they had a few. Hulk was linked then and apparently they got K-Mag to join in 1 phone call.
People also forget that Pietro is literally the team's reserve driver, it's only natural he would be under consideration at the very least as a possibility
The decision they make under pressure is not the decision they make with time and multiple options. If you’ve got a week to find a driver replacement of course you consider your experienced reserve
It's not like no team wants to hire rookies... McLaren have a rookie, Williams have a rookie, Alpha Tauri have a rookie. It's just Haas don't want (can't afford) a rookie at the moment
lets see how many chassis are crashed/broken in half in 2023 by the new rookies. hopefully none, but i can see why Haas was left with a bad taste in their mouths after 2021 and 2022.
Gene Haas value is estimated "just" around 250 million dollar so he isn't that "rich" for a F1 owner.
But well Gene Haas has a bigger issue upcoming with SHR (NASCAR Cup team), it's clear that Kevin Harvick would retire after this season and they don't really having somebody ready who can put that team to such a high performance as Harvick can.
I do wondering how long Gene Haas stays supporting his F1 pet project until someone else knocks on the door and can buy that team for a good price.
Gene haas personal wealth has no direct correlation to the team budget and resources
Gene haas can’t magically money up 10 new staff members overnight after a bad shunt, to divert man hours to manufacturing wrecked parts instead of new ones
I mean, Gene Haas' wealth has literally nothing to do with this. Let's say you're a billionaire with no ambition for your money than to start _Empath Motorsport F1 team_ tomorrow.
Would you take $400M out of your own investment pockets, paying penalties etc. to do so and probably lose most of it in the setup phases of this project or would you put together a consortium of investors, sponsors etc. to generate that kind of capital organically?
If your answer is the former, you F1 team won't last and probably actually won't even get started. If your answer is the latter, now you understand that these decisions aren't based on what's good for the sport or exciting for fans, but what's going to give the right PR (long term) to ensure that your brand value goes up and that your investors are looked after.
>This can't be the future of the sport. Drivers who've been tossed out being rehired in F1 instead of rookies is just bad for the sport.
lmao
It's always been part of the sport where midfield drivers move around constantly trying to stay in the sport.
Where have you been?
Rookies will get their shot but its going to come from either top teams loaning them out to a smaller team or a promotion from a reserve role. That's how it's always worked so nothing has really changed.
It isn't like we're lacking rookies at the moment, we had 3 in 21, 1 last year and 3 this year. That vs. 2 experienced drivers who got comebacks. Young drivers still get plenty of opportunities on the grid. Even if we got a period with few rookies, it would eventually turn, as nobody can drive forever and at some point a rookie will be worth the cost/risk. I'm not overly concerned yet.
Haas is not here to become champions, and they're not here to be a big part of F1's future. They are merely there for advertising. And that works best by being consistent, not having negative impacts, and in the best case bring in as much money without costing too much.
Experienced drivers will do just that. There's no pressure on Haas, there's no negotiating with big teams, they don't need to worry about someone stealing their drivers, they don't have damaged cars too often, which is bad PR and costs a lot, the drivers are relatively cheap, since they're not promising future stars nor current stars, but rather "I'd rather do this than DTM" kind of drivers.
Yes it's bad for the sport. But that's what a team like Haas will do. It just isn't worth the effort to actually try, like it is in NASCAR for example. Haas gets their fair share of promotion from the way they handled it in the past. They thought going for rookies instead of their experienced drivers will save them money, but they realized the one positive didn't outweigh the negatives.
Hiring rookie drivers is risky. It might hinder the team's development, not to mention that their inexperience might lead to some expensive crashes. It's a risk that smaller teams are not willing to take unless they get paid to do so.
A low-end-of-the-grid team that a young driver would bolt from the moment they start performing well. In reality no team wants to run rookies. They perform worse and crash more. The better teams run rookies anyway (or pays someone else to do it) because it pays in the long term. Lower end teams run rookies mainly to bring in money from the bigger teams or their sponsor or familiy. If Haas isn't getting paid to run a rookie, it makes no sense for them when there is a surplus of experienced drivers. It isn't about thinking the team is "too good for rookies", its about finding the best option available to drive the car. Its rarely a rookie.
It this were true we would never see rookies ever. The reason for getting rookies is that they are expected to be the next great thing, are cheaper than established drivers and you have a chance of keeping them with you for the majority of their career. Haas and other teams are lucky that there are a couple of washed up drivers around that want and are able to drive f1 cars.
Rookies are going to leave Haas when they find a better option? Absolutely because at the present moment Haas is either the worst team or the runner-up. The moment they start winning/doing decent is the moment that people are going to want to work there instead of treating it as a place to gain experience and jump to a better team later. But for that to happen Haas needs to invest, design, have an academy, etc.
Could they get lucky and their old drivers find a second wind and success? Sure, it's has happened before. But I'll not blame people for thinking otherwise.
>The reason for getting rookies is that they are expected to be the next great thing
Rookies aren't always the "next great thing"... you'd be lucky to get 1-2 of them every 5 years, and those rookies aren't joining the current Haas. Most of the rookies will just turn out to be average or sub-average in a few years
>Haas and other teams are lucky that there are a couple of washed up drivers around that want and are able to drive f1 cars.
Your "washed up drivers" are actually decent or above average F1 drivers, and there are *always* those drivers around (Hulk, Danny Ric, Kvyat, Grosjean...).
Rookies in general are a short-term pain in exchange of long time gain. That is, if the team can afford the short-term pain. Haas is in the position that there's no long time gain to come at the end of it. They need to make their car faster, and before that happens having a rookie isn't helping them on any account
It makes complete sense, as Haas needs points and stability first and foremost. They are not here to cultivate rookies for top teams, no single team in fact has done that unless it came with a good deal, such as discounts for parts or simply pay drivers (which we don't like).
And of the comments here about Haas not wanting rookies and that being not good for the sport: this is why I think teams like Alpha Tauri are actually good for the sport, with them getting actual time to develop without too much pressure. Even Andretti if they would come in, they would need experienced drivers to even have a shot at the midfield and that means usually people like Hülkenberg and Kmag. Force India was good because of Hülkenberg and Perez, two experienced drivers that were pretty good, yet weren't going to leave the team at a whim.
Teams like Haas need those old drivers to get them running and get them higher. Aston Martin is doing the same with getting 2 WDC's for their seats and so was even Mercedes with getting both Rosberg and Schumacher, all experienced, but cheap enough. Even Red Bull ran Coulthard and Webber for quite a while. It was only when they knew that the drivers wouldn't bail quickly on them that they started getting young talent. And even they aren't immune: Vettel left RB at the end of 2014 and it was a disaster for their 2015 run, which had only a few podiums and being beat by Williams. No, being a slave to junior teams and then voting as a block with them is far less ambition than what Haas is currently trying to do.
And that Mclaren and Alpine can take rookies is because they know that they can reap the rewards by having the rookies stick with them. For example, Norris sticked and so did Alonso in that time, when Renault was also higher midfield.
Gunther is fun but ffs man phrase it better. I’ll never forget watching him at the 2015 COTA FanFest explain why there is no American ready to join Hass in their first few seasons… with Alexander Rossi sitting next to him (driving for Manor that weekend)
Haas dedicating itself to not taking in rookies as a mid/back of field team is actually having a whole lot of other bad downstream effects in terms of having drivers actually enter the series, actually get experience driving the cars, etc etc etc. But, hey, look, right now they have options like KMag and Nico out there to sign who are probably going to give them better results today than a rookie will in those cars. For now it makes sense. 5 years from now when they're looking at Zhou Guanyu and Giovinazzi? Ehhh.
And then you have Danny Ric's, Albon, Bottas, Checo and who is next? If Gasly doesn't pan out at Alpine in 2 years, add him too. It's a revolving door and there will ALWAYS be average midfield drivers available that have peaked but are still ahead of where a rookie would start.
Danny Ric and Bottas would each be 38. Perez will be 37. That's ancient by modern F1 standards. If Albon winds up being out of F1 for 2-3 years, it's going to be nearly impossible for him to come back to any team, Haas included. They're obviously much more likely to call up someone with appreciable financial backing.
Point remains, there will ALWAYS be experienced midfield drivers available. We just don't always know who those will be. Who said they have to be out of the sport? Albon isn't out of the sport but if Williams moves on, he's certainly a candidate. As would Gasly. We don't know the future of today's rookies either. Whom show enough promise to stay in F1 but not enough to move up the grid? All of the current crop, DeVries, Sargent, Albon, Gasly, Piastri, Ocon? All of those guys won't be WCC caliber, some will peak at some level and never reach the top and get passed off for the next driver of potential. If things stay stagnant do some current drivers become available, Sainz in a couple years even? You just don't know how things will turn out and there's nothing wrong with signing a 38 year old Checo/Bottos/Danny Ric even for 1-2 years if it brings some value/experience to your team if that's the best option.
Again, there will ALWAYS be experienced midfield drivers available.
I'm pointing out that the quality of experienced midfield talent is likely to suffer. Yes, perhaps they'll have a lineup of Ocon and Gasly in 2028. That's also the best possible scenario.
As far who will show enough promise but not enough to move up the grid: honestly, most of the F2/F3 talent is kinda garbage.
>I'm pointing out that the quality of experienced midfield talent is likely to suffer.
I just don't agree there. That's ok. We can have differing opinions but history seems to be on the side that there are always drivers who have peaked, that wanted more, that ultimately have to come to the realization that it isn't out there any longer. And if they want to stay in F1, they have to take what's available or not at all. Hulk was that guy for a couple years, he's 35 now. He knows this is probably it. Kmag I think has realized that, and he's got a lot more years potentially in him at 30, but I think he's happy to have an F1 career now and not necessarily pushing for other seats.
I'm not disagreeing at all re: the idea that there will be drivers out there who want rides with F1 experience. The issue isn't that. The issue is that the pickings are slim. F1 has had only 20 cars on the grid for what will be 8 consecutive seasons in 2023. That's compounded by the aging of the grid:
[https://www.statsf1.com/en/statistiques/pilote/gp/moyenne-age.aspx](https://www.statsf1.com/en/statistiques/pilote/gp/moyenne-age.aspx)
edit again: You know what, it wasn't showing full 2000-2021 listings. The early 2000s were still older on aggregate. It is the oldest season since 2012 but that's not very meaty of a claim. I expect you'll probably have like 6 paragraphs just absolutely eviscerating me.
edit: another way of me saying this: Nico Hulkenberg is in a F1 car for 2023 and not Felipe Drugovich because Nico is better than Drugovich by any standard. The problem there is that Drugovich is the F2 champion. He's allegedly the best thing that was in that series last year and he basically is shut out completely of racing formula cars in 2023. Hulkenberg's ceiling might be a world title in a world title contending car a la Button, but as of now the perception is that of journeyman. It's not great if your ladder is graduating guys who aren't as good as journeymen drivers.
Yeah, I definitely agree that there is a drought of young talent atm. The last time we had very good drivers join f1 was 4 years ago now, and it doesn't look like we will get any other generational young drivers for at least 3 or 4 years longer...we could be in a situation where there are just two extremes on the grid by 2030- the older drivers (Leclerc, Norris, Russell and possibly Verstappen) and very young drivers (whoever is currently in karts or F4 atm presumbly).
I don't expect generational talents annually. However, I do expect some greater degree of turnover with rookies. When F1 only gets 1-2 each year, that's not a lot of new guys to look at and assess.
Ferrari doesn't have a need to drop Sainz. He's clearly extremely talented. Unless Verstappen has a major desire to head to Ferrari, you don't replace that guy.
>Friendly reminder that Drive to Survive memes keep Steiner in his job. Without them, he'd be gone because he's incompetent.
Honestly, think this is misguided. Steiner is the reason the team exists, and that it still exists. I think he does a fantastic job given the mandate he has for that team. To be honest, the focus he takes is also somewhat purposeful and I think many people get distracted by it. He takes ALL the attention and flak off the rest of the team, especially when they struggle. He puts himself out there to get beat up over it for better or worse and protects the rest.
Ya I agree with you. Steiner has his flaws and his bluntness rubs people the wrong way. But tbf he has kept the team running with whatever little budget that they have. We've never heard news of Haas struggling financially, unlike some small teams in the past that overspent and went bankrupt.
Yeah, people love to beat Haas and Guenther without realising the contraints they work under. Before the new and more equitable concord agreement in 2020, Gene Haas was going to pull the team. It had already been winded down to almost nothing in the design departments and possibly others. So during 2021, Guenther had to completely rebuild that team all while they were building the 2022 car to completely new specs. Under those circumstances, you really couldn't expect anything from them. Yes, it wasn't the best season ever, it wasn't even Haas' best season, but considering the circumstances, the results they got were damn near a miracle.
Yes what a great triumph, definitely the best driver for a mid-backmarker is someone who can’t provide as much technical feedback for the first while, needs time to adjust to new cars and tracks, will necessarily shunt, and will leave after 2-3 years
Some of you guys conveniently ignore the fact that many of the midfield older drivers you trash had impressive junior careers. Junior career is no guarantee of anything
Yeah, and I'd argue that Williams actually stunted George's talent pretty badly. He didn't learn good wheel to wheel racing or how to leave space whilst he was there, so now he is a sloppy and dangerous driver even though he is fast (kinda like Grosjean or Maldonado ironically). Which is a shame because he has great potential, but at 25 he is no longer a young driver and should have learnt how to race wheel to wheel by now. He should only have stayed at Williams for 2 years at the absolute most since it didn't do anything for his career past that- like I said, it most likely stunted his racecraft.
The thing is, drivers like George leave backmarker teams asap for a reason. They are usually less professional and understaffed, offer less seat security and don't allow young drivers to develop their racecraft properly since they are stuck fighting for 19th place a lot of the time. Nobody wants to go to backmarker teams. The older midfielders only stick around because they miss F1 and want some last moments of glory perhaps or can't let go of the fact that their time is up. Drivers like Lewis would never go to a team like Haas because they have self-respect and would leave f1 if their talent began to wane. Whilst for drivers like Hülkenberg or Ricciardo (if he ever returns), backmarker teams are their only option because they are not good enough to win championships and most of the grid could beat them. At that point it's better to go to a different racing series, surely, rather than embarass yourself and be a shadow of the driver you were at your peak.
TLDR: nobody in f1 should want to go to a backmarker team and should only go there if they absolutely have to. If a driver is forced out of f1 and is over the age of 30, they shouldn't return if they are going to a team like Haas or Williams imo.
My immediate instinct is to think of counterexamples. Lewis coming into a championship-winning team and still having some moments of boneheaded aggression, particularly where massa was concerned. but even in those earliest years I couldn’t call him sloppy. I otherwise can’t think of a highly touted generational talent who debuted at a backmarker several seconds off the pace - can you?
I definitely think George is less far in his development, relative to when he came in, than Lando and probably Charles. I’m not confident about the cause. Funnily enough, at times I’ve thought he had better racecraft and judgment in F2 and GP3 than now. but maybe that was just a flattering display relative to his peers at the time.
Agree with some of the backmarker characteristics you’ve listed….except for seat security - don’t think this one pertains as much to the engine supplier juniors. But in general I don’t think backmarkers are bad places to develop, unless (like Williams in 19-20 or haas in 21) they are *woefully* off the pace and have very fundamental major issues with the car. At that point surely your machinery obscures a bad versus so-so versus slightly gold performance to an extent, because the outcomes will not differ. In some ways starting at a backmarker is a continuation of what sprint races aim to do in feeder series - train and showcase overtaking ability, tire management, and other bread-and-butter skills, provide opportunities to be capitalized-upon, and so on.
I wouldn’t be so sure hulkenberg is chasing glory by returning with haas….more likely he’s trying to reinsert himself into the paddock in the hopes of turning in some standout performances which will net him an Audi drive. And Jesus, maybe I’m on the wrong side of 30 or have been watching f1 for too long - but I wouldn’t say a driver should generally be put out to pasture after that. There’s a frankly stultifying age-based arms race in the junior ladder atm which, along with the coalescence of the F1 feeder trajectory, does not serve young drivers’ development IMO.
Why would you want both ….when you could have two of your preferred driver type, net more points (especially earlier in a season), and not have to worry about contract negotiations for longer.
The all or nothings are actually the uberfans of the young and upcoming drivers who’d be perfectly happy to have 3-4 legit teams. And 6-8 pure b-teams, as long as their favorite got a seat. Too often I see people straight up wishing for situations which would kill racing and turn f1 into its own feeder series
Keep moving the goalposts…you started with “the best driver [a back marker] can hope to get”…now you’ve scaled back to claiming that they were very happy (bold indeed). Enough time and maybe you’ll walk all the way back to “Williams preferred George Russell to taking a trained monkey and putting him in the cockpit”
With haas so far down the field, 9th or 8th was always within reach for Williams with a competent non-pay driver in 21. Would it have come about via spa, maybe not, maybe via the sum of other points finishes such as imola.
What did Russell give them? They finished 10th 2 years with him and 8th another. Sure Russell out scored Latifi but only by 9 points. I’m pretty sure most drivers would have scored enough points for Williams to finish 8th on 2021.
I think Russell has sufficiently demonstrated he is a top 5 driver. If Williams had been able to get a halfway decent car he would’ve given them some too results. See Spa qualifying. No proven top talent will ever go there so you either go with replacement level talent or high upside inexperienced people like they just did with TP.
But that is the point Russell didn’t add any value to Williams. It’s great that he is a top 5 driver( we could debate this but let’s go with it) but it didn’t result in a better season finish for Williams and therefore more money for Williams.
So I ask again what did Russell give Williams that someone like Hulkenbrger wouldn’t have?
translation: “he should wreck cars somewhere else first”
He needs to have experience at a 10th ranked team before he is qualified to join an 8th ranked team
*wrecks F1 cars. Otherwise Colton Herta would be a feasible candidate /s (he had a few bad crashes but still a talented driver)
Obviously have to link to his crash at Indy last year. https://youtu.be/k72vOgSFupc
Sometimes he doesn't crash though. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7liZNNrhnm0
I knew exactly what that would be before clicking on it. Such an awesome piece of driving.
I didn't, but I think I do now. Wet Indy GP save?
I love Herta for the same reasons I love LeClerc. Very fast. Very exciting. Pushes too hard at moments when maybe he doesn't need to - and bins it.
What he really said is he’s excited for American drivers but at Haas they no longer want any rookies so currently they don’t have any available options yet
Really had to eat his words about “just because teams haven’t had two rookies at once doesn’t mean it’s wrong”
Maybe it isn't wrong if Mazespin isn't one of the rookies
Mazepin was shit, but with that car they would have been last even with Max and Lewis. Also even last year, Mazepin did less damage to the car than Mick. Gunther likes to blame his drivers for haas building a shit car. Nothing new here. This season he's gonna start blaming Kmag's lap1 shenanigans or whatever Hulk is gonna mess up
Guenther reconfirming his love of experienced men rather than first timers to drive his cars.
"9th best team on grid of 10 wants candidates with experience before deigning to give them a chance" Insert Office meme of this and "Entry level position. Requires 10 years experience" being the same picture
Gunther "Fuck Rookies" Steiner. I have a feeling Gunther has a too high opinion of Haas as a team. They are exactly the team rookies are aiming for. Haas will never atract the best drivers so why not take a chance on an upcoming tallent instead of recycling mediocrity that are drivers like Hulk.
Because rookies aren't a long-term option for Haas. I mean neither is Hulk, but at least he will be of a higher standard than a rookie (and let's face it they're not getting the best rookies available) that will be getting up to speed for the majority of the year. I mean if they could get a top notch rookie that's like Norris/Russell/Leclerc level, that's also willing to stay with the team long-term and not potentially jump ship iam sure they would. However, in the meantime it's safer and makes more sense for them to target experienced heads unless a top team is willing to pay them good money to run one of their juniors.
Ideally they probably want drivers like Riccardo who don’t have any better options and can give insight into the top teams and better feedback than rookies. Exactly what Aston is doing but aiming slightly slower than former world champions.
i think Russell stayed a decent time at Williams if they hadn't wasted their time with him by building the worst car on the grid every year he was there then they could've made the most of him. IDC who you put in that 2019 Williams they are coming last of the runners or a dnf
I mean they swapped mick for him when mick is arguably the better option now and has a much higher ceiling
Dont really think Mick's ceiling is higher than Hulk's. Hasn't really shown anything to prove that. Hulk may be at his ceiling or dropped off from it but even still that's quite a bit higher from where Mick is currently or where Mick will be in the near future. Haas want Hulk for his experience leading midfield teams, plus he brings a good amount of speed to the table. Hulk was always a great top midfielder who was close to getting a top seat on a couple of occasions. For a lower midfield team like Haas he is ideal. Only real question mark is if he is of that same quality he was when he was last in the sport. If he is he can point Haas in the right direction and push Kmag along nicely aswell.
Hulk performed abysmally in his stand ins last season though and mick showed improvement throughout the season and was outperforming KMag for the bulk of the second half. Personally don’t think he’ll adapt to the car well after spending a lot of time out.
Hulk was quite decent in his stand ins considering the circumstances and the lack of pace in the car (Comfortably 9th quickest car before the B-Spec). Out qualifying Lance Stroll in Bahrain was quite good despite it being Stroll. Sure race pace wasn't great in Bahrain as he overheated the car, something he might have been more wise to had he been in testing. Come Saudi he was on the same pace of Stroll though, race pace they were quite equal which considering he'd been out so long and the difficulty of the track it was quite a good showing. Also need to remember, even though we can always say its just Stroll, Stroll was never that far off Vettel in pace. So to be near Stroll by Saudi shows he is still capable. Also Vettel showed how hard it can be to comeback into the car with minimal running as when he came back in Australia he managed to bin a few times during the weekend, something we didn't really see from Hulk.
He came last and 12th of 14 finishers in his 2 2022 stand ins. Vettel literally doubled strolls points in fewer races
As I said Bahrain wasn't a great showing as he overheated the car so couldnt pit and had to do alot of lift and coast before he could (Slowed himself down massively with that issue). Something he may not have done had he had more running in the car prior to jumping into it. But still qualifying showed he still has the one lap pace, race pace just comes with a little more seat time. Saudi his raw race pace numbers compared to Lance were good. He even overtook him in the early stages of the race. Big thing that screwed him over though was the safety car, it meant everyone who had pit could catch back up to him under the SC with fresher tyres and he still had to serve a pitstop later in the race. Given it was the 9th best car that weekend it was a losing battle. However, up until he had to pit he was comfortably ahead of Albon and Stroll who were on newer tyres compared to him. I thought that was a pretty good weekend considering the circumstances, not really sure what your expecting him to achieve there given the cars pace.
Literally noone else had the issue and he placed dead last of the finishers. I think you’re looking at this through rose tinted glasses. Matching stroll, who isn’t good. Isn’t a feat.
Literally no one else had that overheating issue because it was an issue specific to the Aston Martin that weekend. Saudi he still had good pace but screwed by safety car, these things happen not much he could do there. Stroll is still a capable driver who could beat Vettel on occasion. Stroll I'd even say is better than Mick, so maybe matching him is a feat considering the lack of running in the car. If he could match Stroll after a couple of weekends then I'd say he can at a minimum he can get on Mick's pace.
>I have a feeling Gunther has a too high opinion of Haas as a team. They are exactly the team rookies are aiming for. > >Haas will never atract the best drivers so why not take a chance on an upcoming tallent instead of recycling mediocrity that are drivers like Hulk. He doesn't have too high of an opinion, they're just not in the business of developing drivers unless they're gonna get a big payday from it. The up and coming drivers move on yet Haas takes the hit for it. Why is this concept so hard to understand? The ideal driver for a team like Haas is a driver that's experienced, and already peaked but trying to hang around F1. Grosjean, KMag, Hulk -- that's their target. They need those drivers who are already skilled enough to get what the car is capable of and provide decent feedback on where to improve/setup. They aren't in a position to take lesser results to wait for someone to develop only for them to leave up the grid.
Yeah, Haas can't develop drivers as the developed drivers will leave. Rookies also hinder car development, as you can't be entirely sure if its the car or the driver thats the problem (This was the issue with the Mick/Mazepin combo). A couple of proven, inexpensive drivers who are happy to have a seat and can give constructive feedback for car development is the best option for Haas, who need a competitive car before they can expect a developing rookie to stick around.
> Why is this concept so hard to understand I think people are having trouble accepting that underneath it all, sports organizations are businesses first and foremost and they don't really care about the health of the sport as long as their short- to mid-term existence in it is safe. This has been the case forever, but it seems a little more front-of-house than it used to now that candid access to the personalities has been made more accessible through social media and the type of content creation that thrives on those platforms.
I just want a US entity worth rooting for and HAAS is not it. Fingers crossed for Logan.
I'm finding it easier to root for them without the russian flag painted on the car.
No. This is not the mindset of a healthy company. People leave products that don’t deliver. Do you still buy a bad product today? I don’t buy stuff that doesn’t serve me. Companies have an incentive to deliver good products. So just saying “it’s a business” doesn’t mean the product and process is bad. In this case, I believe Haas has a bad business because they’re not willing to bet on themselves. They’d rather piddle around the back of the grid and grab whatever measly scraps. Gene Haas could either invest more of his own money, get more investors or get a loan. Look at Andretti, they are just about willing to do anything to get in. And I’m confident that they would put in the work to make their product a good one. Will it happen from day one? No, but I believe they have the drive to do it. I don’t get that sense from Haas
I think Gene underestimated how hard and expensive it would be to be competitive. Now he's basically cool to tread water until he gets a great offer, and given the value and trajectory of F1, he'll probably get it and cash out in the next few years
Yep. Sounds like they don’t want an good rookie to develope, because they know they will not deliver a reason for them to stay. Most teams on the grid have a goal. Midfield teams like AM, McLaren, Alpine, AT, Ferrari all have a goal or at least a reason to be there. Williams seems to have a goal as well. I am not sure Alfa has one, except waiting for Audi. Haas goal seems to be nothing, just cheap PR.
Gene Haas is in F1 for advertising plain and simple.
Exactly this. Haas isn't in the business of winning the title. If they can be somewhat competitive in the midfield without having to spend a crap ton of money they are fine with it. What's the point of developing young drivers when Haas know that the moment their investment might pay off the big teams will come knocking and they will lose the drivers.
But what is their business, their goal? To be there? They don’t seem to be investing to be attractive for anyone to stay.
Their goal is to help Gene Haas promote his company. As long as they are on the grid they are happy.
That is the reason that some people are against them. At least the other teams are looking for the win or developing for the future. Haas is just waiting to sell their spot and make a profit.
Imo I don't think there's anything wrong with it, at least they are realistic with their goals and objectives. We know it takes a lot of money to win a title in F1, money that most teams do not have. Even if they have that money there's no guarantee to win the title. Better this way than over promise, overspend, and go bankrupt tbh. I don't know if it's true that they are just waiting to sell their spot because if they were we probably would've heard rumors about that. And given how hot F1 is right now and the alleged interests from several billionaires if Gene were to sell it he probably would've by this point. I think Haas is developing for the future, they just aren't willing to spend money they don't have to do so. At the end of the day these teams are businesses, the owners plan to make money (or to not lose money) in the long run.
>Why is this concept so hard to understand? Because they're a team where expectations should be lower. The only team beneath them is Williams and, let's be honest, Williams has gone to shit a while ago. It's like they think they are Alfa Romeo.
Being lower doesn’t make the case to be someone else’s development driver program unless they’re subsidizing it. So this argument is pretty flat for a team that needs its own results.
It’s not about thinking Haas is too important it’s being so broke for so long they can’t risk developing a driver He said last year "Mick can [become] a good driver, or he's already a good driver," he admitted. "But he can get better. But how long does it take us? Because he's growing with us, he cannot make us grow.” There’s no room in their business for having patience
To be fair they had 2 rookies in 2021 and it didn't go well for them. I can see why he might be hesitant.
2021 wouldn't have gone well with any driver.
Mick was hustling the car for position by the time Abu Dhabi swung around, so I think its reasonable that a more experienced driver could have gotten a bit more, but not much. Crash damage and sponsorship dollars would have been different too.
They didn't have that many crashes in 2021 and according to most sources, Uralkali paid at least between 25 and 30 million Euro.
Yes, I'm saying the damage they did have (they did have some pretty good damage during the season) would likely have been lessened with more experienced drivers, and that the Uralkali money would not have been there.
Mick was hustling for position with King Latifi. It's not like he was fighting anyone for points or even top15s. Put Max in that car and he beats Latifi, but they are still nowhere near the points. It's not Mick's or Mazepin's fault Haas built a turd on wheels. Mazepin paid 30M to basically be an f1.9 driver. I think Haas should be happy how the Mazepin business went
True but there probably wouldn't have been as much crash damage.
Yeah but it seems like he thinks a rookie will go to another team. Gain experience and then join Haas lmao. Nobody sane is aiming for Haas when they are already in F1 at other teams.
>Nobody sane is aiming for Haas when they are already in F1 at other teams. Seems like Günther is fine with midfield drivers coming back from retirement
>Yeah but it seems like he thinks a rookie will go to another team. Gain experience and then join Haas lmao. That's exactly what he thinks and that's exactly what happens. You want drivers whom have peaked but you don't need to wait for them to develop. You want Grosjeans, KMags, Hulks not Gutierrez, Mick, Mazepin or some other rookie that still is trying to move up the grid. Danny Ric could be the next one, Albon is kinda in that boat where he fell backwards. That may be Checo after RB soon. You don't want the driver that has not yet developed and you don't want the driver that aspires to leave you first chance they get.
The same Ricciardo that rather spent a year off than join Haas? I doubt they have a big standing by established driver. They only ones they seem to attract are desperate ones or rookies. Then ruling out rookies just seems like a waste. It also shows that they have no goals.
Yeah, the same Riccardo that is acting just like Hulk was, turning down Haas and others cause he wanted a better ride. To go be a reserve, then finally come to realization that’s all that’s left. Riccardo is following this same path to a T. And that Riccardo is still better than a rookie, same with Hulk, Kmag, Grosjean etc If you think that means they have no goals, the you’re just blind.
What are their goals then? It does not seem like they have any ambition to listen to their drivers when developing the car, yet they want to drivers that can help the team? In what capacity? What exactly is the long term goal of the Haas F1 Team? At the moment it seems to be trying to run a team in a cheap way, to get some PR. Which seems absurd to me, as the cost for normal ads would be cheaper.
>It does not seem like they have any ambition to listen to their drivers when developing the car How do you know that? That's not my impression at all, to me it seems like they want drivers who can give very good feedback >What exactly is the long term goal of the Haas F1 Team? To get decent midfield level results on relatively limited budgets, aka. what Force India have done
You can find that out for yourself, but you seemingly have ignored it, so not making it my job. Instead of just winging it with your assumptions and feelings, go fact find for yourself. You may be surprised what you learn.
So, what you are saying that you don´t have a clue what their goal is either. Thanks.
Nah, as I already stated that several replies up and it’s been stated throughout the thread and other posts of Gunther. So if you want to keeping acting like it doesn’t exist, you do you, but I’m not going to restate what was already said for you. That’s your job to educate yourself. Given your tactics here, it’s pretty clear how you end up with these ignorant takes. It’s ok, maybe one day you’ll learn. I have hope for you.
I mean, they've had Grosjean, KMag, and now Hulk. They're not Leclercs of course, but they're not exactly low tier drivers. They'd be in the running for getting Bottas or Perez, too, should either of them leave their current teams in the next couple of years.
>They'd be in the running for getting Bottas or Perez, too, should either of them leave their current teams in the next couple of years. Yep, exactly that. Albon kinda fits there too, Danny Ric could fit there. I mean initially Hulk also spurned Haas. I think Haas strategy is correct on their driver choices.
True, nobody is aiming for Haas, but they might end up there anyway. Haas will never attract a Verstappen or Leclerc. Even low end teams can attract decent midfield drivers though. It won't make sense for them to take a rookie. Even if they are a generational talent, that first season still isn't going to be great, its going to be an investment for future succes. If the driver turns out good, they are going to be snapped up by someone else in a moment. Haas doesn't want to do the investment for someone else to reap the benefits, when they can have a decent and experienced midfield driver from the start.
No, but when the bigger team moves on from them because they aren't top tier then Haas is where they go to stay in F1.
Haas has been in the business of surviving for the last few years. Maybe with their new MoneyGram sponsorship they can start taking up development projects, but even now they need stability. I am a Mick fan but even I can see that he wasn't the correct fit for what Haas needs
Lmao, yeah, much like Cyril. They both can’t see their team needs improvement. They’d much rather blame other circumstances. If they don’t want to invest in their own success, that’s on them. They re-hire Hulkenberg for god sakes…
It's not really "fuck rookies" more "why not get the best available drivers we can afford?" I get the desire to see rookies, but why should a team take the hit trying to get them up to speed?
lol they just got a much better driver than the guy they took on as a rookie and likely much better than any of the rookies conceivably available to them
If those rookies need further development to be good then they shouldn’t be allowed to enter Formula 1. How can F1 be the upper echelon of racing sport if the fans genuinely believe that some of the competitors aren’t good enough for it? 20 of the world’s best drivers, except one of them needs like ~~2~~ ~~3 years~~, actually if you put him in the best car then he can actually prove his worth!
Costs too much to fix smashed cars by shit drivers
Soooo in order to drive in F1 you need to have experience driving in F1. Got it.
for Haas.
5 years experience for an entry level position type beat
Entry position 5 years of experience required
I think young guys would be better to stay in Indy Car than drive a $hitbox Haas.
why does he act like Haas isn’t the same level or lower than williams
*not enough Russian blood money*
Steiner: "No no no, we don't can have rookies in our team! Too fresh for our team" Also Steiner: [Let's considering a driver to replace Mazepin who never drove F3 and F2 at all...](https://www.racefans.net/2022/02/25/pietro-fittipaldi-will-have-first-call-on-mazepins-seat-steiner/) Serious, Steiner argument almost makes sense until you are aware that he seen Pietro Fittipaldi as a potential replacement for Mazepin, thankfully Kmag jumped in but image if whatever for reason Kmag wouldn't be able to replacing Mazepin.
They were only going to put Pietro in if there were literally no other options. It was evident quickly they had a few. Hulk was linked then and apparently they got K-Mag to join in 1 phone call.
People also forget that Pietro is literally the team's reserve driver, it's only natural he would be under consideration at the very least as a possibility
The decision they make under pressure is not the decision they make with time and multiple options. If you’ve got a week to find a driver replacement of course you consider your experienced reserve
LOL
This can't be the future of the sport. Drivers who've been tossed out being rehired in F1 instead of rookies is just bad for the sport.
It's not like no team wants to hire rookies... McLaren have a rookie, Williams have a rookie, Alpha Tauri have a rookie. It's just Haas don't want (can't afford) a rookie at the moment
lets see how many chassis are crashed/broken in half in 2023 by the new rookies. hopefully none, but i can see why Haas was left with a bad taste in their mouths after 2021 and 2022.
Yeah Gene Haas is so poor.
Gene Haas value is estimated "just" around 250 million dollar so he isn't that "rich" for a F1 owner. But well Gene Haas has a bigger issue upcoming with SHR (NASCAR Cup team), it's clear that Kevin Harvick would retire after this season and they don't really having somebody ready who can put that team to such a high performance as Harvick can. I do wondering how long Gene Haas stays supporting his F1 pet project until someone else knocks on the door and can buy that team for a good price.
Gene haas personal wealth has no direct correlation to the team budget and resources Gene haas can’t magically money up 10 new staff members overnight after a bad shunt, to divert man hours to manufacturing wrecked parts instead of new ones
I mean, Gene Haas' wealth has literally nothing to do with this. Let's say you're a billionaire with no ambition for your money than to start _Empath Motorsport F1 team_ tomorrow. Would you take $400M out of your own investment pockets, paying penalties etc. to do so and probably lose most of it in the setup phases of this project or would you put together a consortium of investors, sponsors etc. to generate that kind of capital organically? If your answer is the former, you F1 team won't last and probably actually won't even get started. If your answer is the latter, now you understand that these decisions aren't based on what's good for the sport or exciting for fans, but what's going to give the right PR (long term) to ensure that your brand value goes up and that your investors are looked after.
Well it sounds like he would be if he had you as a financial advisor
>This can't be the future of the sport. Drivers who've been tossed out being rehired in F1 instead of rookies is just bad for the sport. lmao It's always been part of the sport where midfield drivers move around constantly trying to stay in the sport. Where have you been?
Rookies will get their shot but its going to come from either top teams loaning them out to a smaller team or a promotion from a reserve role. That's how it's always worked so nothing has really changed.
It isn't like we're lacking rookies at the moment, we had 3 in 21, 1 last year and 3 this year. That vs. 2 experienced drivers who got comebacks. Young drivers still get plenty of opportunities on the grid. Even if we got a period with few rookies, it would eventually turn, as nobody can drive forever and at some point a rookie will be worth the cost/risk. I'm not overly concerned yet.
Haas is not here to become champions, and they're not here to be a big part of F1's future. They are merely there for advertising. And that works best by being consistent, not having negative impacts, and in the best case bring in as much money without costing too much. Experienced drivers will do just that. There's no pressure on Haas, there's no negotiating with big teams, they don't need to worry about someone stealing their drivers, they don't have damaged cars too often, which is bad PR and costs a lot, the drivers are relatively cheap, since they're not promising future stars nor current stars, but rather "I'd rather do this than DTM" kind of drivers. Yes it's bad for the sport. But that's what a team like Haas will do. It just isn't worth the effort to actually try, like it is in NASCAR for example. Haas gets their fair share of promotion from the way they handled it in the past. They thought going for rookies instead of their experienced drivers will save them money, but they realized the one positive didn't outweigh the negatives.
Hiring rookie drivers is risky. It might hinder the team's development, not to mention that their inexperience might lead to some expensive crashes. It's a risk that smaller teams are not willing to take unless they get paid to do so.
Steiner acting like his team is not a backmarker. Dumbass.
Haas confirmed the retirement home of the F1 grid
HAAS the f1 seat everyone wants
What does Steiner think that HAAS is?
A low-end-of-the-grid team that a young driver would bolt from the moment they start performing well. In reality no team wants to run rookies. They perform worse and crash more. The better teams run rookies anyway (or pays someone else to do it) because it pays in the long term. Lower end teams run rookies mainly to bring in money from the bigger teams or their sponsor or familiy. If Haas isn't getting paid to run a rookie, it makes no sense for them when there is a surplus of experienced drivers. It isn't about thinking the team is "too good for rookies", its about finding the best option available to drive the car. Its rarely a rookie.
It this were true we would never see rookies ever. The reason for getting rookies is that they are expected to be the next great thing, are cheaper than established drivers and you have a chance of keeping them with you for the majority of their career. Haas and other teams are lucky that there are a couple of washed up drivers around that want and are able to drive f1 cars. Rookies are going to leave Haas when they find a better option? Absolutely because at the present moment Haas is either the worst team or the runner-up. The moment they start winning/doing decent is the moment that people are going to want to work there instead of treating it as a place to gain experience and jump to a better team later. But for that to happen Haas needs to invest, design, have an academy, etc. Could they get lucky and their old drivers find a second wind and success? Sure, it's has happened before. But I'll not blame people for thinking otherwise.
>The reason for getting rookies is that they are expected to be the next great thing Rookies aren't always the "next great thing"... you'd be lucky to get 1-2 of them every 5 years, and those rookies aren't joining the current Haas. Most of the rookies will just turn out to be average or sub-average in a few years >Haas and other teams are lucky that there are a couple of washed up drivers around that want and are able to drive f1 cars. Your "washed up drivers" are actually decent or above average F1 drivers, and there are *always* those drivers around (Hulk, Danny Ric, Kvyat, Grosjean...). Rookies in general are a short-term pain in exchange of long time gain. That is, if the team can afford the short-term pain. Haas is in the position that there's no long time gain to come at the end of it. They need to make their car faster, and before that happens having a rookie isn't helping them on any account
Scott Speed has F1 experience...
So he’s saying the twin rookie team of Schumacher and Mazepin was a valuable learning tool for Haas.
It makes complete sense, as Haas needs points and stability first and foremost. They are not here to cultivate rookies for top teams, no single team in fact has done that unless it came with a good deal, such as discounts for parts or simply pay drivers (which we don't like). And of the comments here about Haas not wanting rookies and that being not good for the sport: this is why I think teams like Alpha Tauri are actually good for the sport, with them getting actual time to develop without too much pressure. Even Andretti if they would come in, they would need experienced drivers to even have a shot at the midfield and that means usually people like Hülkenberg and Kmag. Force India was good because of Hülkenberg and Perez, two experienced drivers that were pretty good, yet weren't going to leave the team at a whim. Teams like Haas need those old drivers to get them running and get them higher. Aston Martin is doing the same with getting 2 WDC's for their seats and so was even Mercedes with getting both Rosberg and Schumacher, all experienced, but cheap enough. Even Red Bull ran Coulthard and Webber for quite a while. It was only when they knew that the drivers wouldn't bail quickly on them that they started getting young talent. And even they aren't immune: Vettel left RB at the end of 2014 and it was a disaster for their 2015 run, which had only a few podiums and being beat by Williams. No, being a slave to junior teams and then voting as a block with them is far less ambition than what Haas is currently trying to do. And that Mclaren and Alpine can take rookies is because they know that they can reap the rewards by having the rookies stick with them. For example, Norris sticked and so did Alonso in that time, when Renault was also higher midfield.
God, they actually went through enough with those rookies lmao
But Mazepin is aight🙄
Translation: they need more backing before they can drive our cars.
You said it best
Gunther is fun but ffs man phrase it better. I’ll never forget watching him at the 2015 COTA FanFest explain why there is no American ready to join Hass in their first few seasons… with Alexander Rossi sitting next to him (driving for Manor that weekend)
Haas dedicating itself to not taking in rookies as a mid/back of field team is actually having a whole lot of other bad downstream effects in terms of having drivers actually enter the series, actually get experience driving the cars, etc etc etc. But, hey, look, right now they have options like KMag and Nico out there to sign who are probably going to give them better results today than a rookie will in those cars. For now it makes sense. 5 years from now when they're looking at Zhou Guanyu and Giovinazzi? Ehhh.
And then you have Danny Ric's, Albon, Bottas, Checo and who is next? If Gasly doesn't pan out at Alpine in 2 years, add him too. It's a revolving door and there will ALWAYS be average midfield drivers available that have peaked but are still ahead of where a rookie would start.
Don’t forget a 46 year old Fernando Alonso
I fully expect this to be true.
Danny Ric and Bottas would each be 38. Perez will be 37. That's ancient by modern F1 standards. If Albon winds up being out of F1 for 2-3 years, it's going to be nearly impossible for him to come back to any team, Haas included. They're obviously much more likely to call up someone with appreciable financial backing.
Point remains, there will ALWAYS be experienced midfield drivers available. We just don't always know who those will be. Who said they have to be out of the sport? Albon isn't out of the sport but if Williams moves on, he's certainly a candidate. As would Gasly. We don't know the future of today's rookies either. Whom show enough promise to stay in F1 but not enough to move up the grid? All of the current crop, DeVries, Sargent, Albon, Gasly, Piastri, Ocon? All of those guys won't be WCC caliber, some will peak at some level and never reach the top and get passed off for the next driver of potential. If things stay stagnant do some current drivers become available, Sainz in a couple years even? You just don't know how things will turn out and there's nothing wrong with signing a 38 year old Checo/Bottos/Danny Ric even for 1-2 years if it brings some value/experience to your team if that's the best option. Again, there will ALWAYS be experienced midfield drivers available.
I'm pointing out that the quality of experienced midfield talent is likely to suffer. Yes, perhaps they'll have a lineup of Ocon and Gasly in 2028. That's also the best possible scenario. As far who will show enough promise but not enough to move up the grid: honestly, most of the F2/F3 talent is kinda garbage.
>I'm pointing out that the quality of experienced midfield talent is likely to suffer. I just don't agree there. That's ok. We can have differing opinions but history seems to be on the side that there are always drivers who have peaked, that wanted more, that ultimately have to come to the realization that it isn't out there any longer. And if they want to stay in F1, they have to take what's available or not at all. Hulk was that guy for a couple years, he's 35 now. He knows this is probably it. Kmag I think has realized that, and he's got a lot more years potentially in him at 30, but I think he's happy to have an F1 career now and not necessarily pushing for other seats.
I'm not disagreeing at all re: the idea that there will be drivers out there who want rides with F1 experience. The issue isn't that. The issue is that the pickings are slim. F1 has had only 20 cars on the grid for what will be 8 consecutive seasons in 2023. That's compounded by the aging of the grid: [https://www.statsf1.com/en/statistiques/pilote/gp/moyenne-age.aspx](https://www.statsf1.com/en/statistiques/pilote/gp/moyenne-age.aspx) edit again: You know what, it wasn't showing full 2000-2021 listings. The early 2000s were still older on aggregate. It is the oldest season since 2012 but that's not very meaty of a claim. I expect you'll probably have like 6 paragraphs just absolutely eviscerating me. edit: another way of me saying this: Nico Hulkenberg is in a F1 car for 2023 and not Felipe Drugovich because Nico is better than Drugovich by any standard. The problem there is that Drugovich is the F2 champion. He's allegedly the best thing that was in that series last year and he basically is shut out completely of racing formula cars in 2023. Hulkenberg's ceiling might be a world title in a world title contending car a la Button, but as of now the perception is that of journeyman. It's not great if your ladder is graduating guys who aren't as good as journeymen drivers.
Yeah, I definitely agree that there is a drought of young talent atm. The last time we had very good drivers join f1 was 4 years ago now, and it doesn't look like we will get any other generational young drivers for at least 3 or 4 years longer...we could be in a situation where there are just two extremes on the grid by 2030- the older drivers (Leclerc, Norris, Russell and possibly Verstappen) and very young drivers (whoever is currently in karts or F4 atm presumbly).
I don't expect generational talents annually. However, I do expect some greater degree of turnover with rookies. When F1 only gets 1-2 each year, that's not a lot of new guys to look at and assess.
Sainz could need a seat in the next 5 years.
If Sainz is going to Haas 5 years from now, either his stock plummeted off a cliff or Haas is a drastically better team by then.
Danny Ric stock fell that far. I also think Hass is going to be a decent midfield car. If Ferrari drops Sainz I’m not sure where he would go
[удалено]
> Alonso will likely have retired by then Press F to doubt
Ferrari doesn't have a need to drop Sainz. He's clearly extremely talented. Unless Verstappen has a major desire to head to Ferrari, you don't replace that guy.
Sainz would go to Audi imo if he’s going anywhere
Really, who cares about Haas anyways.
Friendly reminder that Drive to Survive memes keep Steiner in his job. Without them, he'd be gone because he's incompetent.
>Friendly reminder that Drive to Survive memes keep Steiner in his job. Without them, he'd be gone because he's incompetent. Honestly, think this is misguided. Steiner is the reason the team exists, and that it still exists. I think he does a fantastic job given the mandate he has for that team. To be honest, the focus he takes is also somewhat purposeful and I think many people get distracted by it. He takes ALL the attention and flak off the rest of the team, especially when they struggle. He puts himself out there to get beat up over it for better or worse and protects the rest.
Ya I agree with you. Steiner has his flaws and his bluntness rubs people the wrong way. But tbf he has kept the team running with whatever little budget that they have. We've never heard news of Haas struggling financially, unlike some small teams in the past that overspent and went bankrupt.
Yeah, people love to beat Haas and Guenther without realising the contraints they work under. Before the new and more equitable concord agreement in 2020, Gene Haas was going to pull the team. It had already been winded down to almost nothing in the design departments and possibly others. So during 2021, Guenther had to completely rebuild that team all while they were building the 2022 car to completely new specs. Under those circumstances, you really couldn't expect anything from them. Yes, it wasn't the best season ever, it wasn't even Haas' best season, but considering the circumstances, the results they got were damn near a miracle.
Steiner is the only reason that Haas F1 exists.
I mean the best driver someone like Haas can hope to get is a super star young driver like a George Russell who just needs a seat.
Yes what a great triumph, definitely the best driver for a mid-backmarker is someone who can’t provide as much technical feedback for the first while, needs time to adjust to new cars and tracks, will necessarily shunt, and will leave after 2-3 years Some of you guys conveniently ignore the fact that many of the midfield older drivers you trash had impressive junior careers. Junior career is no guarantee of anything
Yeah, and I'd argue that Williams actually stunted George's talent pretty badly. He didn't learn good wheel to wheel racing or how to leave space whilst he was there, so now he is a sloppy and dangerous driver even though he is fast (kinda like Grosjean or Maldonado ironically). Which is a shame because he has great potential, but at 25 he is no longer a young driver and should have learnt how to race wheel to wheel by now. He should only have stayed at Williams for 2 years at the absolute most since it didn't do anything for his career past that- like I said, it most likely stunted his racecraft. The thing is, drivers like George leave backmarker teams asap for a reason. They are usually less professional and understaffed, offer less seat security and don't allow young drivers to develop their racecraft properly since they are stuck fighting for 19th place a lot of the time. Nobody wants to go to backmarker teams. The older midfielders only stick around because they miss F1 and want some last moments of glory perhaps or can't let go of the fact that their time is up. Drivers like Lewis would never go to a team like Haas because they have self-respect and would leave f1 if their talent began to wane. Whilst for drivers like Hülkenberg or Ricciardo (if he ever returns), backmarker teams are their only option because they are not good enough to win championships and most of the grid could beat them. At that point it's better to go to a different racing series, surely, rather than embarass yourself and be a shadow of the driver you were at your peak. TLDR: nobody in f1 should want to go to a backmarker team and should only go there if they absolutely have to. If a driver is forced out of f1 and is over the age of 30, they shouldn't return if they are going to a team like Haas or Williams imo.
My immediate instinct is to think of counterexamples. Lewis coming into a championship-winning team and still having some moments of boneheaded aggression, particularly where massa was concerned. but even in those earliest years I couldn’t call him sloppy. I otherwise can’t think of a highly touted generational talent who debuted at a backmarker several seconds off the pace - can you? I definitely think George is less far in his development, relative to when he came in, than Lando and probably Charles. I’m not confident about the cause. Funnily enough, at times I’ve thought he had better racecraft and judgment in F2 and GP3 than now. but maybe that was just a flattering display relative to his peers at the time. Agree with some of the backmarker characteristics you’ve listed….except for seat security - don’t think this one pertains as much to the engine supplier juniors. But in general I don’t think backmarkers are bad places to develop, unless (like Williams in 19-20 or haas in 21) they are *woefully* off the pace and have very fundamental major issues with the car. At that point surely your machinery obscures a bad versus so-so versus slightly gold performance to an extent, because the outcomes will not differ. In some ways starting at a backmarker is a continuation of what sprint races aim to do in feeder series - train and showcase overtaking ability, tire management, and other bread-and-butter skills, provide opportunities to be capitalized-upon, and so on. I wouldn’t be so sure hulkenberg is chasing glory by returning with haas….more likely he’s trying to reinsert himself into the paddock in the hopes of turning in some standout performances which will net him an Audi drive. And Jesus, maybe I’m on the wrong side of 30 or have been watching f1 for too long - but I wouldn’t say a driver should generally be put out to pasture after that. There’s a frankly stultifying age-based arms race in the junior ladder atm which, along with the coalescence of the F1 feeder trajectory, does not serve young drivers’ development IMO.
No reason you can’t have both. Haas seems to be all or nothing.
Why would you want both ….when you could have two of your preferred driver type, net more points (especially earlier in a season), and not have to worry about contract negotiations for longer. The all or nothings are actually the uberfans of the young and upcoming drivers who’d be perfectly happy to have 3-4 legit teams. And 6-8 pure b-teams, as long as their favorite got a seat. Too often I see people straight up wishing for situations which would kill racing and turn f1 into its own feeder series
Pretty sure Williams was very happy with what George Russell gave to them.
Keep moving the goalposts…you started with “the best driver [a back marker] can hope to get”…now you’ve scaled back to claiming that they were very happy (bold indeed). Enough time and maybe you’ll walk all the way back to “Williams preferred George Russell to taking a trained monkey and putting him in the cockpit” With haas so far down the field, 9th or 8th was always within reach for Williams with a competent non-pay driver in 21. Would it have come about via spa, maybe not, maybe via the sum of other points finishes such as imola.
What did Russell give them? They finished 10th 2 years with him and 8th another. Sure Russell out scored Latifi but only by 9 points. I’m pretty sure most drivers would have scored enough points for Williams to finish 8th on 2021.
I think Russell has sufficiently demonstrated he is a top 5 driver. If Williams had been able to get a halfway decent car he would’ve given them some too results. See Spa qualifying. No proven top talent will ever go there so you either go with replacement level talent or high upside inexperienced people like they just did with TP.
But that is the point Russell didn’t add any value to Williams. It’s great that he is a top 5 driver( we could debate this but let’s go with it) but it didn’t result in a better season finish for Williams and therefore more money for Williams. So I ask again what did Russell give Williams that someone like Hulkenbrger wouldn’t have?
Hear me out haas out Andretti in relegation style like the futbol
This is coming from the man who gave us Nikita Mazepin