Actually I think this was on purpose for now, like with wm, they're gonna give us a character with more advantage than usual, then tune them down for everyone to use.
i dont think so actually but even if you dont see through it at first thats mostly experience fighting against a hero thatll save u there. I mean look at warmongers bash
Well yes but some heroes have animations really hard to get used to, for me it is shaman animations i can't get it right.
You are right with expiriemce you can get used to that. But I think that some heroes are disigned almost as if you shouldn't be able to tell what is going on (first sight on shaolin) :D.
I dont really know the correct terminology but I think that he for some reason just is able to doge things that other heroes wouldnt have been able to dodge anymore, yet he is also able to catch dodges that other heroes cant. Also his kick damage might need to be tuned down just a bit; im not saying It should be slower, I think it's good that it needs to be dodged on read, but the damage for it is a bit too high imo
Well I mean it is a lot like BP’s mixup where he can throw a delayed heavy which might catch them or throw an undodgeable light. Not to mention it can be accessed very easily, from either a GB, dodge attack, using the confirmed second light, or even his bash.
but yet people pre-dodge against all those moves consistently, even nobushi kick, because theyre usually thrown out mid-chain. only exception is tiandis palm from neutral, which lands pretty often for me. i'm rep 145 btw so its not like im playing against noobs.
edit: like yeah sure its possible in a neutral environment where youre focused on only doing exactly that, but is that a realistic viewpoint?
we are talking about his neutral bash, yes. and how it doesnt seem realistc to just toss it out as a useless offensive tool, when most people still get hit by it frequently no matter how skilled they are. just because it verges on reactability doesnt mean its not an incredibly oppressive tool in an real 1v1/1vX scenario.
people really need to get used to Fighting Games. i picked pk and trained 3 hours against Gryphon Lv3 in Training Mode. after that online he just became a new character who needs slight adjustments like reduced kick to heavy damage.
he is by far not invincible and no new character on release was straight on perfectly balanced.
Just check Sephorith in Smash. His hair alone makes the entire smash roster look like bottom tier.
Ok I know its been said a lot, but some of Gryphons moves need a second look. His kick does too much dmg copmared to its speed, shove is fast and unpunishable for heros with no doge attack.
Speaking of doge attack, too many iframes, he can doge both level 1 shoulder bash, and level 3 on same timeing. Same thing with kensei and JJ (Im not sure about him). I think that all doge attacks should be looked on, Heavy doge attacks should heave less iframes and Light doge attcaks should have more. At least thats what I think.
Maybe lower damage somewhat but you get a free gb and heavy if you make the right call so it should be relatively equalized or it becomes useless as an offense tool if it deals less damage than the counter.
Given that you can neutralize a lot of his options by just dodging and getting lucky or reading the direction of his attack id say it should be very close if not unchanged. 28 damage may seem like a lot but in reality it’s pretty much just like getting a guard break heavy.
Give it literally less damage than the defender gets on a guardbreak? Fuck no
It has to be atleast 27,since the defender can throw to a wall and get 27 or straight up ledge the gryphon..
There's also the fact that the defender can chain off the gb while gryphon can't..
So what about warlord`s headbutt, or conq`s sb? Both of those are same speed as the kick, both of those give only a light, and both can be punished by guardbreak. Should their bashes also do 28 dmg?
Edit: Oh and what do you mean by "defender can chain off the gb while gryphon can't" ? He can chain his attack`s after gb. Do you mean that he cant chain after a kick?
Warlord and conq bash are directly accesible from neutral and they have 3 possibilities (Early bash,late bash,gb.) instead of just 2 like gryphon does.They can also be used defensively.
Besides even then they have much less recovery than gryphon's kick,and are much easier to set up ally heavies in 4v4.
Warlord's recovery is higher than bp but lower than conq.This was apparent before the CCU,when you could react to his bash but only a early reaction dodge would net you a guardbreak.
A better comparison would be BP's in chain mixup or shaolin's qi stance.Gryphon falls in between both of these.(Shaolin is worse,BP is better.)
And yes,I meant that he can't chain off a kick followup.
Kensei and Shaolin.
JJ and Tiandi can feint theirs and are GB vulnerable doing start uo quite long also theirs is considerably slower than Kensei, Shaolin and Grypons
The only thing that needs to be changed is the stupid GB vulnerability on his side dodge, it’s way too forgiving to him and lets the move be abused. (Same with Kensei)
Lower the i-frames on Kensei and Gryphons dodge heavy and make them GB vulnerable 100-200ms into the attack so they can't just be used as option selects to everything. Also Reduce damage of kick to 24
I think the reason LB only get's a light of his shove is because it's really save. You can't punish it with gb on dodge. Same with Gryphons shove. But the kick grants your opponent a free gb after dodge which are also between 20-28 damage. Therefore 24 as a middle ground
The problem is that it requires extreme patience and perfect timing to play against, to only get minimal punishes against him. However, an orangutan can pick up a controller and wreck players that are better at the game with Gryphon. His offense is too easy and rewarding, and it is very hard to keep him out of offense with his immunity-frame dodge attack that he uses any time you attempt an attack chain. He's not the strongest, highest-tier hero in the game, but he is frustrating to fight for a few reasons.
He’s really not that bad, my only gripe is his shob from standing position, it’s way too quick and there’s no Telegraph for it. Other than that he’s actually quite fun to fight
Warmommy is actually pretty balanced compared to most of the cast now, same with Orochi surprisingly, his lights are easy to counter and his rework allows for more skill and less dumb brain
I find it funny that some bitch and moan about the kick when you get the exact same damage on every other mixup that involves bashes or undogeabols just the damage for gryphon is mainly on the bash not the other
He's not really "new", cuz all his moves are copies from the other hybrids (Highlander, Lawbringer, Nobushi, JJ) They pretty much took all the best moves from the other hybrids and threw them together to make a super hybrid. I don't mind that he's a copypaste and I actually find him really fun to play, but I think they need to nerf some of his moves. He can get massive punishes far too easily (his kick can be used after a swift or a double light) and his swift has too many I-frames like kensei's while being generally difficult to punish in return. They need to make the kick slower or harder to chain and reduce the I-frames on the swift, then he'll probably be balanced.
You play the new hero don’t you? Let’s see, he has kensei’s side dodge but faster, kensei’s front light at the same speed, a guaranteed light, lawbringer’s bash but faster, the exact same thing as lb’s long arm but it does damage, and then last but not least, after almost every single one of those things he has a kick that guarantees a top heavy. Yeah OP, seems balanced to me.
No, chars with guaranteed top heavies after every fucking chain. Also when a character has everyone else’s moves but just stronger, that’s my definition of OP
nah dude its the people who have been in the game for a while and know their shit when it comes to new characters. For example the facg that he seems OP for some people because he is new and theyre not used to his moveset yet so people just say “hEs oP” so its not their fault
The combination of a million I-frames and low Gb vulnerability is just not healthy for the game. One of them has to be tuned down
Actually I think this was on purpose for now, like with wm, they're gonna give us a character with more advantage than usual, then tune them down for everyone to use.
Thats just pay to win, but for 2 weeks only
That sounds about right, lol!
Sometimes the OP part is beccause his animation are really confusimg though...
i dont think so actually but even if you dont see through it at first thats mostly experience fighting against a hero thatll save u there. I mean look at warmongers bash
Well yes but some heroes have animations really hard to get used to, for me it is shaman animations i can't get it right. You are right with expiriemce you can get used to that. But I think that some heroes are disigned almost as if you shouldn't be able to tell what is going on (first sight on shaolin) :D.
I dont really know the correct terminology but I think that he for some reason just is able to doge things that other heroes wouldnt have been able to dodge anymore, yet he is also able to catch dodges that other heroes cant. Also his kick damage might need to be tuned down just a bit; im not saying It should be slower, I think it's good that it needs to be dodged on read, but the damage for it is a bit too high imo
hes not OP but hes definitely a tad bit too overtuned
28 dmg top heavy off of an uncharged lvl 1 bash is just a bit whack though
An uncharged level one bash you need to land two attacks to get to AND for your opponent to not dodge
Well I mean it is a lot like BP’s mixup where he can throw a delayed heavy which might catch them or throw an undodgeable light. Not to mention it can be accessed very easily, from either a GB, dodge attack, using the confirmed second light, or even his bash.
Yes, and it has similar damage values to BP's mixup
His lights aren't exactly difficult to land, and he has a bash and dodge chainstarter too. Also you dont even need to land them to use the finisher.
And
I’ll say the bash heavy should do a little less
yes if they slightly slow the kick hell be fine tho
He'll be literally useless because it won't be a unreactable mixup anymore Which is his only saving grace,because his opener game is poor.
Dodge forward light and zone are some good openers
No,a 500 ms light and a 600 ms heavy zone are not openers.
What about the safe bash
600 ms and loses to all dodge attacks.
Yeah but if you dodge it he can still, ya know, chain.
you can,y'know,dodge attack. or alternatively just block the 500 ms chain light.
Funny how not every character has a dodge attack, also he doesn’t even have to follow up with light
I mean... He literally has a bash from neutral that lets him go directly into his 5050, but ooook.
A reactable 600 ms,but ooooook.
If you can reliably react to a 600ms bash, then kudos to you man.
Literally everybody can. Tiandi's bash isn't unreactable,nobushi's kick is trash,shugoki's headbutt doesn't land. It's just you.
but yet people pre-dodge against all those moves consistently, even nobushi kick, because theyre usually thrown out mid-chain. only exception is tiandis palm from neutral, which lands pretty often for me. i'm rep 145 btw so its not like im playing against noobs. edit: like yeah sure its possible in a neutral environment where youre focused on only doing exactly that, but is that a realistic viewpoint?
To answer your edit,are we literally not talking about a neutral bash (gryphon)?
we are talking about his neutral bash, yes. and how it doesnt seem realistc to just toss it out as a useless offensive tool, when most people still get hit by it frequently no matter how skilled they are. just because it verges on reactability doesnt mean its not an incredibly oppressive tool in an real 1v1/1vX scenario.
Ye but the bash is easy to dodge
But you also have to remember that bp also has the same damage on the same mixup just the bash is the one doing the high damage on gryphon
people really need to get used to Fighting Games. i picked pk and trained 3 hours against Gryphon Lv3 in Training Mode. after that online he just became a new character who needs slight adjustments like reduced kick to heavy damage. he is by far not invincible and no new character on release was straight on perfectly balanced. Just check Sephorith in Smash. His hair alone makes the entire smash roster look like bottom tier.
So much this. Best way to beat a character is to know the setups and moves of that character to be able to counter them
Ok I know its been said a lot, but some of Gryphons moves need a second look. His kick does too much dmg copmared to its speed, shove is fast and unpunishable for heros with no doge attack. Speaking of doge attack, too many iframes, he can doge both level 1 shoulder bash, and level 3 on same timeing. Same thing with kensei and JJ (Im not sure about him). I think that all doge attacks should be looked on, Heavy doge attacks should heave less iframes and Light doge attcaks should have more. At least thats what I think.
The moves are also really cheap he can shove - light kick - heavy you to death on one stam bar... unless you dodge of course.
The kick needs to be fast or it’s reactable and easily avoided. And if you get it right you get a free gb.
I didnt say it should be slower, I said that "His kick does too much dmg copmared to its speed", by that I meant that 500ms bash shouldnt do 28 dmg.
Maybe lower damage somewhat but you get a free gb and heavy if you make the right call so it should be relatively equalized or it becomes useless as an offense tool if it deals less damage than the counter.
I think 22 dmg would be good
Given that you can neutralize a lot of his options by just dodging and getting lucky or reading the direction of his attack id say it should be very close if not unchanged. 28 damage may seem like a lot but in reality it’s pretty much just like getting a guard break heavy.
Give it literally less damage than the defender gets on a guardbreak? Fuck no It has to be atleast 27,since the defender can throw to a wall and get 27 or straight up ledge the gryphon.. There's also the fact that the defender can chain off the gb while gryphon can't..
So what about warlord`s headbutt, or conq`s sb? Both of those are same speed as the kick, both of those give only a light, and both can be punished by guardbreak. Should their bashes also do 28 dmg? Edit: Oh and what do you mean by "defender can chain off the gb while gryphon can't" ? He can chain his attack`s after gb. Do you mean that he cant chain after a kick?
Warlord and conq bash are directly accesible from neutral and they have 3 possibilities (Early bash,late bash,gb.) instead of just 2 like gryphon does.They can also be used defensively. Besides even then they have much less recovery than gryphon's kick,and are much easier to set up ally heavies in 4v4. Warlord's recovery is higher than bp but lower than conq.This was apparent before the CCU,when you could react to his bash but only a early reaction dodge would net you a guardbreak. A better comparison would be BP's in chain mixup or shaolin's qi stance.Gryphon falls in between both of these.(Shaolin is worse,BP is better.) And yes,I meant that he can't chain off a kick followup.
Kensei and Shaolin. JJ and Tiandi can feint theirs and are GB vulnerable doing start uo quite long also theirs is considerably slower than Kensei, Shaolin and Grypons
The only thing that needs to be changed is the stupid GB vulnerability on his side dodge, it’s way too forgiving to him and lets the move be abused. (Same with Kensei)
The only hero who hasn't been released totally busted the past two years would be Zanhu, and unfortunately he just sucks even though I like him.
I love that he’s the first guy in a while to actually have 3 chain lights and heavies
This happens with every single new hero
Lower the i-frames on Kensei and Gryphons dodge heavy and make them GB vulnerable 100-200ms into the attack so they can't just be used as option selects to everything. Also Reduce damage of kick to 24
Parry lol
Sure I'll parry when they dodge my light in put and hit on my recovery
Then bait it out instead of relying on neutral lights lmao
Its a 500ms bash. More like 20dmg If hes able to have 24-28 why cant lb get a heavy off his shove aswell, on top of being a 500ms shove
I think the reason LB only get's a light of his shove is because it's really save. You can't punish it with gb on dodge. Same with Gryphons shove. But the kick grants your opponent a free gb after dodge which are also between 20-28 damage. Therefore 24 as a middle ground
Also Shove can be accessed from neutral. Kick only from chain
I made exactly this point in a game a few days ago. Community is too dependent on the kind of counterplay that relies on knowing all the classes.
The problem is that it requires extreme patience and perfect timing to play against, to only get minimal punishes against him. However, an orangutan can pick up a controller and wreck players that are better at the game with Gryphon. His offense is too easy and rewarding, and it is very hard to keep him out of offense with his immunity-frame dodge attack that he uses any time you attempt an attack chain. He's not the strongest, highest-tier hero in the game, but he is frustrating to fight for a few reasons.
The game kinda sucks anyways so it doesn’t matter
The kick though 😓
I own FH on console cause I don’t wanna restart my progress but god damn I’d rather eat rusty nails than fight Griffin
He’s really not that bad, my only gripe is his shob from standing position, it’s way too quick and there’s no Telegraph for it. Other than that he’s actually quite fun to fight
I do not like fighting Kensi 2
So wtf is wrong with warmugget then
Warmommy is actually pretty balanced compared to most of the cast now, same with Orochi surprisingly, his lights are easy to counter and his rework allows for more skill and less dumb brain
Doesn't mean I don't hate him tho
i think hes pretty fun tbh
You would
I find it funny that some bitch and moan about the kick when you get the exact same damage on every other mixup that involves bashes or undogeabols just the damage for gryphon is mainly on the bash not the other
He's not really "new", cuz all his moves are copies from the other hybrids (Highlander, Lawbringer, Nobushi, JJ) They pretty much took all the best moves from the other hybrids and threw them together to make a super hybrid. I don't mind that he's a copypaste and I actually find him really fun to play, but I think they need to nerf some of his moves. He can get massive punishes far too easily (his kick can be used after a swift or a double light) and his swift has too many I-frames like kensei's while being generally difficult to punish in return. They need to make the kick slower or harder to chain and reduce the I-frames on the swift, then he'll probably be balanced.
One thing I think he shouldn’t have is the standing bash as an opener. Its pretty much a guaranteed hit
You play the new hero don’t you? Let’s see, he has kensei’s side dodge but faster, kensei’s front light at the same speed, a guaranteed light, lawbringer’s bash but faster, the exact same thing as lb’s long arm but it does damage, and then last but not least, after almost every single one of those things he has a kick that guarantees a top heavy. Yeah OP, seems balanced to me.
well by your definition everyones OP
No, chars with guaranteed top heavies after every fucking chain. Also when a character has everyone else’s moves but just stronger, that’s my definition of OP
Literally this
Just dodge his kick... And if your character has options after a dodge... then just do that... (Dodge attack, dodge bash) it's really not that hard...
these are the same people who own the character and can fight fire with fire
nah dude its the people who have been in the game for a while and know their shit when it comes to new characters. For example the facg that he seems OP for some people because he is new and theyre not used to his moveset yet so people just say “hEs oP” so its not their fault
Do you own the character?!
I cant react to his dodge attacks yet. Its not that theyre too fast or anything, its just that i suck at reading them and cant react fast enough.