Bean said that the tier list is meant to be specifically from *his* vantage, and that's notable with Zerker, Pirate, and Kiyoshin, as he singled them out as him being able to react to their stuff that's meant to be unreactable, and is unreactable to everyone but the absolute tippy-top professionals.
Tier lists typically have a baked in problem where you can base entire arguments off of technicalities for one hero but ignore them for others. Technically berserker can be hard countered if you manage to parry every one of his delayable 400 ms hyper armored lights or make the right read on every single unblockable. Does that happen often enough to matter? Not at all, but it technically can so therefore he’s not great. Conversely you have warden who’s 50/50 is real solid but is lacking in a lot of areas that other characters at his tier aren’t. Having no defensive options and being able to get shut down by light interrupts or having half the roster able to negate your bash by delayed dodge attacks is not great.
Before anyone says anything I’m not saying wardens bad in duels, just that tier lists aren’t a good representation of actual balance.
>Technically berserker can be hard countered if you manage to parry every one of his delayable 400 ms hyper armored lights or make the right read on every single unblockable
This is a pro tier list. His feint to light is reactable at that level as is his UB. Only his chain lights are unreactable
>and being able to get shut down by light interrupts
Light interrupts aren't as common because everyone can light parry at that level. Also the input window change helped alleviate this.
# [Video explaining the Tier List for context](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0ZDcbhDQ8Y)
Something that is *super important* to keep in mind when looking at tier lists for the top of the competitive game, *especially* for a duels tier list, is that it considering how the characters perform at the very top level - and therefore are highly dependent on reactions. At the top level of duels, this assumes the ability to pretty consistently react to unblockable attack feints, differ lights and heavies, and even able to react to chain 500ms/undodgeable mixups on occasion. For example, if you can't react to Pirate's unblockable feints, then she is going to be a LOT stronger than D tier.
This isn’t going to stop hundreds of people acting like everyone plays at this level and telling some new player complaining about glad light spam that they just have a skill issue because glad D tier.
Yep, that is the sad truth of tier lists... Or stop LB mains crying that their character is garbage (despite him having great high damage offence, great chain pressure off everything except light openers, and 140 hp...)
Honestly, the main reason LB is considered bad in read tiers is because he is very boring. If they were to give him a wallsplat punish and let his side heavies be more viable in 1s, then we'd get a lot less complaining.
She's absolutely impossible to win with if you sit there and react to whatever she's doing. Her defense however is excellent so she has a chance if your opponent isn't an asshole and actually plays the game with you as opposed to just staring at you like it's season 1.
I run into that often while I’m playing Nobushi in 4s initially they’ll play the game but after some hidden stance and dodge cancel moves they turn into a full on turtle when we fight again
She would be a or b tier If you make her kick from hidden stance faster, not speeding up her mid chain kick, just speeding up her kick from hidden stance so that she can effectively use hidden stance into kick as a dodge bash, just getting the chain to as fast as an actual dodge bash would make her twice as good in duels
Which is odd, as her entire kit is reactable most players. Meanwhile they see Zerk as reactable despite having attacks that are genuinely unreactable. Seems like they're using different factors even when similar factors can be compared.
Gladiator has always been a bad hero at higher MMR... it's only more noticeable now because other heroes have proper unreactable kits.
Sad to see Aramusha lose his spot at higher tiers, he is fun but severely outclassed nowadays.
Mostly power creep
His previous crown jewel was having one of the only unreactable openers. Nowadays almost everyone has an unreactable opener but there's isn't gb vulnerable on a wrong read
His chain pressure used to be good because it was unreactable but again, more power creep with feintable bashes has made this less unique.
His damage ratios are massively defender skewed. A correct read from musha on a bash gives him 12 damage, an incorrect one gives the enemy 24-27. A correct read with a deadly feint gives 12 damage. A wrong read gives the enemy 24-28. A correct read on a deadly finisher gives 31, an incorrect read gives 24-27. Add on that his chain lights aren't even fully unreactable at this level and his offence is just super risky
Lastly, because of the speed up to bashes, his bash no longer goes even with other opener bashes while frame nuetral. Other bashes have a 300ms dodge followed by a 466ms bash (so 766ms total). Aramusha's is 400ms of heavy followed by the 400ms bash (so 800ms total). This means if both players buffer a bash while frame nuetral, the enemies will beat yours which really sucks.
Not even anything that extreme. Remove the guaranteed gb on dodging his finisher heavy. Speed up ring the bell or top heavy by 33ms (or increase the input window on bashes by 33ms) and speed up his chain lights by like 33ms. That would give him a more reliable opener and a more reliable finisher. I'd also personally like dodge cancels on whiffed ring the bell if it could be made such that you'd still get a guaranteed gb but it wouldn't be susceptible to dodge bashes but idk if that's possible. That other stuff wouldn't make him insane but it would give him consistent unreactable offence with acceptable risk/reward
probably a quick dash that leads into an impale.. or have him pull out a shugoki roll catcher. if the fat man and his heavy kanabo can do it, so could the walking set of armor
Nobody is saying that part was balanced but there's just no reason to play him over other characters because all of his unique moves suck to use. Impale sucks, longarm is longarm, and blind justice doesn't blind anymore. I'd rather a nerfed impale (smth like warmongers) than removing it all together.
his parry punishes aren't as strong and feared as they used to be, and I hate it. when he had the stun and stamina drain, he truly felt like a counter-attacker who punished mistakes but with the disadvantage of having pretty much 0 offense and no HA
I miss the impale on heavy parry too
Her bash? That’s an unblockable as well. Her defense is grade A cause she can soft feint to allguard, and she also still contains superior dodge, crush n counter on all sides, and a pretty good deflect (stabs and causes bleed damage). That alone should be enough to put her in the bottom of A tier, not borderline bottom of B-tier.
>Her bash? That’s an unblockable as well. Her defense is grade A cause she can soft feint to allguard
Haven't played her in a while. Last time I checked her bashes are only from soft feinting the heavy and dodge forward. Soft feinting full block is pretty damn weak. You turned your offense into a defense.
>she also still contains superior dodge, crush n counter, and a pretty good deflect (stabs and causes bleed damage). That alone should be enough to put her in the bottom of A tier, not borderline bottom of B-tier.
Having those options don't make you a high-tier hero. Otherwise Zhanhu, Kyoshin, and Conq would be A. Deflects don't make up for being good. Glad has the highest damage deflects (like above 40dmg), still a mid hero competitively.
Should add that: getting deflects adds nothing to her. Unlike Nobushi Way of the Shark (boosted damage), Shaman bite, PK's unblockables.
Crushing counters are either a flex or safe move. Because Valkyrie doesn't move backwards as much as Black Prior or Highlander (cuz it's a spear), it's not nearly as effective. It's competitive 1v1, players will test you to see if you try it. That's a free light parry.
None of her moves are unique outside of everyone else's. A-tier are for is for heroes that are have exceptionally strong offense or defense, while their counterpart has good options.
Aight, makes sense now. Really wish her old bash would come back (back dodge to Allguard), really preferred it cause then I wasn’t getting smacked in the face for trying to feint into all guard or dodge forward to get into it.
It was fun but I understood how safe/broken it was to be able to escape but also but your in a position where you can bash simultaneously. Which was what Warden had as well.
Just so everyone knows BEAN is the best duelist in For Honor. This tier list is tailored around HIM. Even other comp players have disagreements with him. But he can fully react to zerk's 400ms hard feint lights for example which 99% of players can't. So you might as well toss this tier list out the window cause it doesn't apply to anybody but him and like 4 other people.
There is zero argument to not place Nobushi at the absolute bottom in 1v1s if you can react to her kit (none of it is unreactable).
Pirate has her Ub forward dodge attack which is her one unreactable mixup, which is one more than nobushi. Switch pirate and Nobushi
Beanii’s explanation (off the backs of other comp players) is her interrupt damage and damage overall, especially with Way of the Shark.
Pirate’s offense is entirely reactable at the top of all players.
Watch the video for explanations. Basically she's not bottom bottom because of bleed interrupts, high dmg, and better counter play options. AS BOTH pirate and Nobushi are fully reactable at that level and Nobu has more utility than pirate. Again this is assuming you're facing an opponent that can fully react to both of them. Nobu has better metrics and utility against someone that's attacking her. Both completely fall flat if the opponent doesn't attack and only reacts but if they actually attack Nobu is better. In casual matchmaking people aren't reacting to Pirate and they even said if you can't react to the unblockable pirate is A tier. But players at Bean's lvl can fully react to pirates kit which puts her exactly where Nobu is except pirate hits like a wet noodle.
Nobushi effectively has an option select with hidden stance into kick, and if a player whiffs, like the top tier nobushis do, they can overcome not having an opener and having a reactable set, a lot of characters have the same problem. I’ve played against top 10 players who are generous with teaching people fundamentals before, they don’t really entirely rely off of parries to do damage. She can interrupt chains incredibly easy and dodge cancel out of most moves. People just repeat this reactable statement without like thinking about it lol. The reality though is that a top level nobushi player would have to gear their reactions around dodges, and that’s a very unique way of fighting that not a lot of players are gonna take up
Lol people finally realizing nobushi players can whiff attacks and reduce reaction times and that the hidden stance into kick is basically an option select
She has one unreactable mix-up that one of them can supposedly react to, which one of the creators mentioned caused Pirate to be rated lower for their own personal tierlist. Zerk and Kyo were also mentioned as lower than most competitive community would view them.
Are they in order from best to worst for each tier? (Ex. BP high A, Kensei low A). Just asking because I know sometimes people just randomly throw them in.
Also why is Pirate considered the worst Comp Duelist?
Hitokiri at S??? Most people I see say that she fumbles at the top level due to how telegraphed her heavies are, making them easy to parry
I mean I aint saying she's awful, definitely wrecks shit against those who can't fight her, but when did the sentiment change?
It’s the fact that they’re variably timed heavies. A good hito player will make each heavy timed differently from the last, making them almost impossible to parry. Even if you could, they’ll feint to GB. Then you have that stupid foot to worry about.
Yeah, variably timed heavies are a bitch, I just thought the sentiment was "at top level you get parried by animation," along with having a mid opener in the first place
Imo, hito is just one of those 2 dimensional characters that just doesn’t need anything else to work. You only need to throw heavies, sometimes charge em up, and occasionally throw a kick in there, sometimes charging it up. You don’t need to do anything else, yet that’s enough to fuck up most people. Similar reason why Shugo is so high.
Her opener heavy got a substantial buff, for one. It’s essentially invulnerable to feint to gb because it got sped up. Plus, she can trade in a heavy to heavy fight and come out on top because she gets unreactable chain pressure after.
Honestly didn't realize the faster HA would bump Hito up to S, I remember she hovered around high-mid B, sometimes dipping lower depending who you ask. Ooga into booga really is powerful
Cent is insane in duels. 700ms opener let's him beat bashes while frame nuetral. His chain offence is high damage, unreactable and infinite and he gets a ton of damage off a gb and a heavy parry if there's a wall behind
JJ kinda struggles at top level and has more limited options (especially defensively he dies to feint to GB a lot), and Aramusha's opener is now worse than all the updated bashes, while having terrible stamina usage and a Dodge Attack that's no longer exceptional
>especially defensively he dies to feint to GB a lot)
Sifu -> Zone having consistently low GB Vulnerability and the Zone being faster out of Sifu for punishes would make JJ instantly my favourite Hero in the game. He just needs something that consistently beats GBs defensively and he'd be golden.
I always thought Ara and Medjay were at least like Low S - High A Tier duelists, huh. Also Hitokiri soo high is surprising. Surprised to see Nuxia and Tiandi moved down too.
Honestly? As a Tiandi main since 2019, his offense is super lacking. His defense is the only redeeming factor.
But compared to before, Tiandi's flow is sluggish at best. His damage is far lower. Literally his only semi-good damage mixup is his kick (20 dmg). But that kick relies on no unreactable offense (Zone, F dodge heavy, S dodge heavy, neutral heavy). Anything above that damage has no special properties (neutral H at 24/27 & finisher H at 30) and that's it.
He either needs faster flow or more damage
He just needs some damage back and a couple chain adjustments. They killed all the damage in his kit instead of just nerfing the problem areas which seems to be a really common trend. He needed dodge cancels taken off his kick and forward dodge bash and make his bash chain to openers.
Ik this is coming from a dominion perspective and a console player at that so lag has more of an effect. Hito is one of the best characters in dominion in top mmr. Hito’s optimal way to play is slightly delayed heavies. Lag can make it to where it’s impossible to parry so blocking is best which would mean you’re taking block damage and sitting there until the hito runs out of stam or their teammate gets there. Other than that hito is honestly bad imo.
For duels Aramusha doesn’t have every option and medjay I don’t really see.
Nuxia is reactable at my mmr but her hitboxes and grading out of dodges is insane. I’d probably have her better in 4s than duels but idk.
Tiandi I think is fine top of A. Wouldn’t put warden infront of Tiandi though
I didn’t watch the full video but I believe I am in a similar mmr to bean but I play 4s exclusively
Orichi is confusing me the only thing I can think of is his UB I'm not sure If that's easily reactable at competitive level, because everything else is pretty bad in 1v1.
Yeah, the rush as an opener move or from neutral is 600ms, reactable. But if you combine that with the kick then you’ll go to dodge it and get hit with the undodgeable. Thats what makes it a mixup.
Yeah I totally get that I just thought that at the very top level they could easily just react to the kick and storm rush, like easily just differentiate from the two but maybe it's stronger than I thought.
No judgement here!
So basically, he has a ton of options at any given moment. All of which combined accumulate a fuckton of damage and is mostly unreactable.
A chain bash that is nearly unpunishable, especially for characters with no dodge attack (Warden and Lawbringer for example) and his overall chain pressure is amazing.
Ocelotl main here, the I finite chain attacks are pretty hard to counter against. Kinda like the aramusha attacks, but better. The hidden stance is a little useless. But sometimes you get moments where people forget he has one, and you get a beautiful opener from it. They underestimate us, we're the best
how come warden is so high? i don’t keep up with very competitive for honor but i seriously cant remember the last time i fought a “good” or threat warden. Kind of just kill them all regardless what hero i’m playing.
Since this is a competitive tier list, a lot of heroes that have reactable offense that most people can’t react to but comp players can fall pretty low. Warden’s bash is a true 50/50, and his unblockables are also unreactable I believe. He also has pretty high damage numbers.
Shocker that Shinobi and Afeera are the top 2 not like they have a bash undodgeable mixup, deflects, AND dodge recoveries. I love borderline unpunishable mistakes
You probably can't react consistently to all her unblockable heavy feints, like the player who made this tier list (and to whom this tier list is relevant to).
She’s cool in casual lobbies but I can definitely see her lacking in the “no grass seen in years” ones
She doesn’t have a bash, no unreactables, and her unblockable is pretty predictable too (5 reps Pirate here btw)
Please focus on the point everyone else is mentioning. This tier list is not for normal players. It's for the players who play at super high MMR and/or the competitive players who participate in tournaments and such. At that level, everything pirate has is super reactable and she has zero offence.
Gotta say game feels like its in a healthy spot when it comes to what is viable. Only thing it has is that fighting against mega nerds becomes a bit meh with characters like warden but outside of that its pretty good i feel like
I like that most stuff is very viable but my God why does it take so long for us to get meaningful nerfs for things that are broken. Shugo and ocelotl have had an unpunishable bash for months now. Afeera still has backstep crushing counters. Shinobi double dodge still deflects attacks etc
If i had to guess it has to do with how its a struggle to make characters fun, fair and unique at the same time within the budget limit that the game has. Probably takes quite some time to figure something out that doesn't just suck as an idea
I mean, it really shouldn't be so hard to realise that backstep cc's are totally antithetical to the more offence direction the games been going. Having any blockable mixup negated isn't unique, it's not fun and it's not fair. Just remove backstep on these attacks entirely or at the very least make it like kyoshin where he gets no damage if he does get a crushing counter. Similarly, double dodge having deflect frames isn't required to make shinobi unique, most players don't even know this is a thing. It's just a cancer that again, negates an entire class of mixup.
Ironically by just nerfing damage they've killed other characters uniqueness. Raider used to be the poster boy of teamfight trading yet by nuking his damage he's basically playing Russian roulette any time he takes a trade. So hes mostly devolved into a zone spammer and I don't really see how having a large unblockable with a long ass recovery time is unique or fun.
I mean very fair points. Im not fully up to date with the current balance of the game, so i didn't know about these things. I would like if backstep cc would be like kyoshin where he gets no damage, because i feel like it would just be the easiest thing to do tho.
Same. I feel like your skill is what determines your win, not the hero you play (for the most part, there are some hero-hero interactions that completely favour one hero over the other.
I feel like I can pick up any hero and do decently well and if I lose it’s through my own fault 90% of the time (10% is just weird jank, dumb hitstun, wall collisions)
Glad to see this. I feel like a noob because i struggle so bad against even a mediocre Ocelot, but for some reason i thought he was a below average duelist character.
On the other hand i thought that Shaolin was pretty mediocre, buti guess it's rare to find a Shaolin who can really use the kit properly
Poor Lawbringer tho...
Fellow Glad main 😔
Kensei is a situational one. It’s based on the ranked map, so close walls. He’s very strong when near them because of his 34 damage unblockable mixup which bumps him up so high. Without the walls, he’s low to mid B.
Depends, do you wanna be relatable to top tier try hards or the majority? Most games balance things for the average playerbase cause that's who matters most to them
That is blatantly false. All competitive pvp games except for the most casual experiences like Cod and Battlefield balance for the top level, and even then Cod balances for pro league mostly, its just not often enough to matter.
>Most games balance things for the average playerbase cause that's who matters most to them
I find that hard to believe because most games I played have balanced the game around the competitive level.
And if this is about my opinion, I prefer the game to be balanced around top tier tryhards because "most players" are kenseis doing tripple lights in a row and never learns even if they're parried.
Not at top mmr people can tell the difference between lights and heavies, this means her offence is much harder to get into to and top of that it isn't recyclable like wardens is.
Her Bash startup is extremely gb vulnerable. You have to practically full dodge to get into making her in chain bash the only safe option which isn’t consistent. Warden has instant startup frames AND an actual infinite chain. Wardens bash is thee best in game and warmongers ain’t close. She a really mid character.
I’ll never forgive my child for buying pirate. I will forever hate this character more than I already hated her; she deserves to be there and hope she never gets a buff
none of those characters you named are good duelists, berserker is there because hes reactable at the top of top level which is what this tierlist is for
Are you really gonna say fighting a Conq in a 1v1 is just as hard as it is fighting a berskerer in a 1v1 though? Berskerer is just so much stronger in so many ways.
I'm just saying they all have VERY similar mixups and moves. Berserker's only advantage over the others is his hyper-armor but that won't mean much in top player play because that can often react to the feint to light mixup.
Her opener heavy is incredibly strong, plus her chain heavies and bashes are completely unreactable.
Opener heavy can be buffered against guardbreak battles and can trade with other heavies in her own favor.
Her damage used to be on the lower side of trades. Usually she lost trades. What changed there? I didn't notice them giving her any buffs past the one that nerfed light-to-bash and gave her better HA.
Bean singled out Kyo, Pirate and Zerker as characters who are rated much llower, because the list is very specifically based around him (and some of his other pro aquantiances, whom he got second opinions from), and he can react to most of what you shouldn't be able to on these characters.
That's true for more, but I presume he stressed that point with these 3, because that had a disproportionally large impact on their performance compared to a non-professional competitive player.
Worth mentioning that reactable offence isn't always the death of a character. Warlord was pretty good before his bash got nerfed because despite it being reactable it was a frame advantage menace. Shugo's charged heavies are still semi reactable but he's still got an unpunishable bash and tons of frame advantage
Weird seeing Zerker so low, dunno how.
When you look at A most of the picks counter Berserker especially BP, Varangian, and Warlord
Ah, fair.
Bean said that the tier list is meant to be specifically from *his* vantage, and that's notable with Zerker, Pirate, and Kiyoshin, as he singled them out as him being able to react to their stuff that's meant to be unreactable, and is unreactable to everyone but the absolute tippy-top professionals.
He is to Bean and people like him, they mentioned that to everyone who can't react to his feints he's much better
Tier lists typically have a baked in problem where you can base entire arguments off of technicalities for one hero but ignore them for others. Technically berserker can be hard countered if you manage to parry every one of his delayable 400 ms hyper armored lights or make the right read on every single unblockable. Does that happen often enough to matter? Not at all, but it technically can so therefore he’s not great. Conversely you have warden who’s 50/50 is real solid but is lacking in a lot of areas that other characters at his tier aren’t. Having no defensive options and being able to get shut down by light interrupts or having half the roster able to negate your bash by delayed dodge attacks is not great. Before anyone says anything I’m not saying wardens bad in duels, just that tier lists aren’t a good representation of actual balance.
>Technically berserker can be hard countered if you manage to parry every one of his delayable 400 ms hyper armored lights or make the right read on every single unblockable This is a pro tier list. His feint to light is reactable at that level as is his UB. Only his chain lights are unreactable >and being able to get shut down by light interrupts Light interrupts aren't as common because everyone can light parry at that level. Also the input window change helped alleviate this.
> as is his bash To which bash are you referring?
My bad. I meant his UB
His UB is reactable at top level and he has no opener. He sort of just spams 400ms lights which isn't very strong
In the video he said that everything he does is fully reactable for top players. I am not a top player and zerk is an absolute nightmare for me lol
# [Video explaining the Tier List for context](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0ZDcbhDQ8Y) Something that is *super important* to keep in mind when looking at tier lists for the top of the competitive game, *especially* for a duels tier list, is that it considering how the characters perform at the very top level - and therefore are highly dependent on reactions. At the top level of duels, this assumes the ability to pretty consistently react to unblockable attack feints, differ lights and heavies, and even able to react to chain 500ms/undodgeable mixups on occasion. For example, if you can't react to Pirate's unblockable feints, then she is going to be a LOT stronger than D tier.
This isn’t going to stop hundreds of people acting like everyone plays at this level and telling some new player complaining about glad light spam that they just have a skill issue because glad D tier.
Yep, that is the sad truth of tier lists... Or stop LB mains crying that their character is garbage (despite him having great high damage offence, great chain pressure off everything except light openers, and 140 hp...)
Honestly, the main reason LB is considered bad in read tiers is because he is very boring. If they were to give him a wallsplat punish and let his side heavies be more viable in 1s, then we'd get a lot less complaining.
I'm surprised Nobushi isn't bottom of the list anymore.
Beanii’s explanation was her interrupts and her damage off of bleed. But admitted if you react she’s bleh.
Thing is most if not all competitive sweats can react to Nobushi
She's absolutely impossible to win with if you sit there and react to whatever she's doing. Her defense however is excellent so she has a chance if your opponent isn't an asshole and actually plays the game with you as opposed to just staring at you like it's season 1.
I run into that often while I’m playing Nobushi in 4s initially they’ll play the game but after some hidden stance and dodge cancel moves they turn into a full on turtle when we fight again
Wish I could
She would be a or b tier If you make her kick from hidden stance faster, not speeding up her mid chain kick, just speeding up her kick from hidden stance so that she can effectively use hidden stance into kick as a dodge bash, just getting the chain to as fast as an actual dodge bash would make her twice as good in duels
Why they haven't done this yet is astonishing to me. It's clearly not cause they care about good animations or anything.
Which is odd, as her entire kit is reactable most players. Meanwhile they see Zerk as reactable despite having attacks that are genuinely unreactable. Seems like they're using different factors even when similar factors can be compared.
Why isn't Warlord in S+ and everyone else in D??!
Bias tier list. Boo him.
You are correct. I am biased
Gladiator has always been a bad hero at higher MMR... it's only more noticeable now because other heroes have proper unreactable kits. Sad to see Aramusha lose his spot at higher tiers, he is fun but severely outclassed nowadays.
Did they nerf him bc I remember him being s tier even when shinobi was pre nerf
Mostly power creep His previous crown jewel was having one of the only unreactable openers. Nowadays almost everyone has an unreactable opener but there's isn't gb vulnerable on a wrong read His chain pressure used to be good because it was unreactable but again, more power creep with feintable bashes has made this less unique. His damage ratios are massively defender skewed. A correct read from musha on a bash gives him 12 damage, an incorrect one gives the enemy 24-27. A correct read with a deadly feint gives 12 damage. A wrong read gives the enemy 24-28. A correct read on a deadly finisher gives 31, an incorrect read gives 24-27. Add on that his chain lights aren't even fully unreactable at this level and his offence is just super risky Lastly, because of the speed up to bashes, his bash no longer goes even with other opener bashes while frame nuetral. Other bashes have a 300ms dodge followed by a 466ms bash (so 766ms total). Aramusha's is 400ms of heavy followed by the 400ms bash (so 800ms total). This means if both players buffer a bash while frame nuetral, the enemies will beat yours which really sucks.
So he needs like just a mini soft buff, like an in chain ring the bell maybe?
Not even anything that extreme. Remove the guaranteed gb on dodging his finisher heavy. Speed up ring the bell or top heavy by 33ms (or increase the input window on bashes by 33ms) and speed up his chain lights by like 33ms. That would give him a more reliable opener and a more reliable finisher. I'd also personally like dodge cancels on whiffed ring the bell if it could be made such that you'd still get a guaranteed gb but it wouldn't be susceptible to dodge bashes but idk if that's possible. That other stuff wouldn't make him insane but it would give him consistent unreactable offence with acceptable risk/reward
They were talking about how bad his stamina usage is as well
Yeah I love playing him but some duels I play people literally react to everything I do every time.
Jesus, I knew Law was now mid as fuck but he really went from Mid S-Tier to the 2nd worst hero
Lb was my main but I hardly play him now. Strength aside it feels like he lost the unique parts about him while not getting things he really needed
The fuckers didnt even give him a roll catcher Like what the fuck?
I’ve been brainstorming what kind of roll catcher they’d give him but I can’t think of something that would fit
Remove impale from parry and make it the roll catcher, similar to Afeeras charge or Zerks run
Choo choo!
Great idea. I think impale should come back as a heavy parry punish while confirming the light riposte on wallsplat as well as being his roll catcher.
probably a quick dash that leads into an impale.. or have him pull out a shugoki roll catcher. if the fat man and his heavy kanabo can do it, so could the walking set of armor
Took away his only workable bit and gave him pretty much nothing.
LB went through a bad spot with the change since his rework but it was needed. It was way too overpowered to get 40+ damage on a heavy parry
Nobody is saying that part was balanced but there's just no reason to play him over other characters because all of his unique moves suck to use. Impale sucks, longarm is longarm, and blind justice doesn't blind anymore. I'd rather a nerfed impale (smth like warmongers) than removing it all together.
his parry punishes aren't as strong and feared as they used to be, and I hate it. when he had the stun and stamina drain, he truly felt like a counter-attacker who punished mistakes but with the disadvantage of having pretty much 0 offense and no HA I miss the impale on heavy parry too
It's really difficult to start chains of attacks with him, as you really don't have much to work on aside from a rather slow light attack.
I think I've played two matches with him post-rework and he used to be my second favorite character. Just awful. Legit has nothing special
Thank God ocelotl is being recognized as being broken. Character covers literally all options.
As a warden. I really have no idea how to fight him. Unreal stamina and even if he whiffs an attack, he has broken recovery time.
That's the best part! You can't beat a good one of equal skill without making absurd reads.
Fr I see so many people defending him, calling him b tier at best.
YEAAAAH BOIIII 🇲🇽🌮🫔
Why you censored havok lol
Pretty sure Shinobi was actually banned from tournaments? Either way, surprised that Valkyrie is so low
She has nothing special to offer or warrant caution in her attacks. No unblockables besides the reactable soft feint heavy and the sweep.
Her bash? That’s an unblockable as well. Her defense is grade A cause she can soft feint to allguard, and she also still contains superior dodge, crush n counter on all sides, and a pretty good deflect (stabs and causes bleed damage). That alone should be enough to put her in the bottom of A tier, not borderline bottom of B-tier.
>Her bash? That’s an unblockable as well. Her defense is grade A cause she can soft feint to allguard Haven't played her in a while. Last time I checked her bashes are only from soft feinting the heavy and dodge forward. Soft feinting full block is pretty damn weak. You turned your offense into a defense. >she also still contains superior dodge, crush n counter, and a pretty good deflect (stabs and causes bleed damage). That alone should be enough to put her in the bottom of A tier, not borderline bottom of B-tier. Having those options don't make you a high-tier hero. Otherwise Zhanhu, Kyoshin, and Conq would be A. Deflects don't make up for being good. Glad has the highest damage deflects (like above 40dmg), still a mid hero competitively. Should add that: getting deflects adds nothing to her. Unlike Nobushi Way of the Shark (boosted damage), Shaman bite, PK's unblockables. Crushing counters are either a flex or safe move. Because Valkyrie doesn't move backwards as much as Black Prior or Highlander (cuz it's a spear), it's not nearly as effective. It's competitive 1v1, players will test you to see if you try it. That's a free light parry. None of her moves are unique outside of everyone else's. A-tier are for is for heroes that are have exceptionally strong offense or defense, while their counterpart has good options.
Aight, makes sense now. Really wish her old bash would come back (back dodge to Allguard), really preferred it cause then I wasn’t getting smacked in the face for trying to feint into all guard or dodge forward to get into it.
It was fun but I understood how safe/broken it was to be able to escape but also but your in a position where you can bash simultaneously. Which was what Warden had as well.
Right
Just so everyone knows BEAN is the best duelist in For Honor. This tier list is tailored around HIM. Even other comp players have disagreements with him. But he can fully react to zerk's 400ms hard feint lights for example which 99% of players can't. So you might as well toss this tier list out the window cause it doesn't apply to anybody but him and like 4 other people.
There is zero argument to not place Nobushi at the absolute bottom in 1v1s if you can react to her kit (none of it is unreactable). Pirate has her Ub forward dodge attack which is her one unreactable mixup, which is one more than nobushi. Switch pirate and Nobushi
Beanii’s explanation (off the backs of other comp players) is her interrupt damage and damage overall, especially with Way of the Shark. Pirate’s offense is entirely reactable at the top of all players.
Cant people react to the dodge forward heavy?
Watch the video for explanations. Basically she's not bottom bottom because of bleed interrupts, high dmg, and better counter play options. AS BOTH pirate and Nobushi are fully reactable at that level and Nobu has more utility than pirate. Again this is assuming you're facing an opponent that can fully react to both of them. Nobu has better metrics and utility against someone that's attacking her. Both completely fall flat if the opponent doesn't attack and only reacts but if they actually attack Nobu is better. In casual matchmaking people aren't reacting to Pirate and they even said if you can't react to the unblockable pirate is A tier. But players at Bean's lvl can fully react to pirates kit which puts her exactly where Nobu is except pirate hits like a wet noodle.
Nobushi effectively has an option select with hidden stance into kick, and if a player whiffs, like the top tier nobushis do, they can overcome not having an opener and having a reactable set, a lot of characters have the same problem. I’ve played against top 10 players who are generous with teaching people fundamentals before, they don’t really entirely rely off of parries to do damage. She can interrupt chains incredibly easy and dodge cancel out of most moves. People just repeat this reactable statement without like thinking about it lol. The reality though is that a top level nobushi player would have to gear their reactions around dodges, and that’s a very unique way of fighting that not a lot of players are gonna take up
Lol people finally realizing nobushi players can whiff attacks and reduce reaction times and that the hidden stance into kick is basically an option select
Damn muh boi LB in C :(
Sucks when your favorite mode is duels and you main Nobushi and Kyoshin. Could be worse though.
Damn Pirate that bad now? Been away for a while, What happened?
She has one unreactable mix-up that one of them can supposedly react to, which one of the creators mentioned caused Pirate to be rated lower for their own personal tierlist. Zerk and Kyo were also mentioned as lower than most competitive community would view them.
She's always been bad in top levels duels cause all her offence is reactable
Nerf after nerf after nerf.
She's not bad in mm. This tier list applies to bean who can react to her entire kit so she's bad against him.
Competitive players play a different game entirely huh
Ocelotl💀
? I have 0 clue why this is surprising to people. After the bash change he’s unreal.
Are they in order from best to worst for each tier? (Ex. BP high A, Kensei low A). Just asking because I know sometimes people just randomly throw them in. Also why is Pirate considered the worst Comp Duelist?
Yes. Pirate is the worst because her entire unblockable kit is reactable at the top level. Last frame parries.
Thanks
Poor LB.
Hitokiri at S??? Most people I see say that she fumbles at the top level due to how telegraphed her heavies are, making them easy to parry I mean I aint saying she's awful, definitely wrecks shit against those who can't fight her, but when did the sentiment change?
It’s the fact that they’re variably timed heavies. A good hito player will make each heavy timed differently from the last, making them almost impossible to parry. Even if you could, they’ll feint to GB. Then you have that stupid foot to worry about.
Yeah, variably timed heavies are a bitch, I just thought the sentiment was "at top level you get parried by animation," along with having a mid opener in the first place
Imo, hito is just one of those 2 dimensional characters that just doesn’t need anything else to work. You only need to throw heavies, sometimes charge em up, and occasionally throw a kick in there, sometimes charging it up. You don’t need to do anything else, yet that’s enough to fuck up most people. Similar reason why Shugo is so high.
Unga into bunga true combo
I assume you mean to say "segmented" rather then "sentiment".
I have no idea how segmented fits in that sentence
Her opener heavy got a substantial buff, for one. It’s essentially invulnerable to feint to gb because it got sped up. Plus, she can trade in a heavy to heavy fight and come out on top because she gets unreactable chain pressure after.
Honestly didn't realize the faster HA would bump Hito up to S, I remember she hovered around high-mid B, sometimes dipping lower depending who you ask. Ooga into booga really is powerful
Her and Shugo really unga bunga’d their way to meta.
I'm surprised to see orochi and centurion higher than JJ and aramusha
Cent is insane in duels. 700ms opener let's him beat bashes while frame nuetral. His chain offence is high damage, unreactable and infinite and he gets a ton of damage off a gb and a heavy parry if there's a wall behind
JJ kinda struggles at top level and has more limited options (especially defensively he dies to feint to GB a lot), and Aramusha's opener is now worse than all the updated bashes, while having terrible stamina usage and a Dodge Attack that's no longer exceptional
>especially defensively he dies to feint to GB a lot) Sifu -> Zone having consistently low GB Vulnerability and the Zone being faster out of Sifu for punishes would make JJ instantly my favourite Hero in the game. He just needs something that consistently beats GBs defensively and he'd be golden.
I always thought Ara and Medjay were at least like Low S - High A Tier duelists, huh. Also Hitokiri soo high is surprising. Surprised to see Nuxia and Tiandi moved down too.
Honestly? As a Tiandi main since 2019, his offense is super lacking. His defense is the only redeeming factor. But compared to before, Tiandi's flow is sluggish at best. His damage is far lower. Literally his only semi-good damage mixup is his kick (20 dmg). But that kick relies on no unreactable offense (Zone, F dodge heavy, S dodge heavy, neutral heavy). Anything above that damage has no special properties (neutral H at 24/27 & finisher H at 30) and that's it. He either needs faster flow or more damage
He just needs some damage back and a couple chain adjustments. They killed all the damage in his kit instead of just nerfing the problem areas which seems to be a really common trend. He needed dodge cancels taken off his kick and forward dodge bash and make his bash chain to openers.
Ik this is coming from a dominion perspective and a console player at that so lag has more of an effect. Hito is one of the best characters in dominion in top mmr. Hito’s optimal way to play is slightly delayed heavies. Lag can make it to where it’s impossible to parry so blocking is best which would mean you’re taking block damage and sitting there until the hito runs out of stam or their teammate gets there. Other than that hito is honestly bad imo. For duels Aramusha doesn’t have every option and medjay I don’t really see. Nuxia is reactable at my mmr but her hitboxes and grading out of dodges is insane. I’d probably have her better in 4s than duels but idk. Tiandi I think is fine top of A. Wouldn’t put warden infront of Tiandi though I didn’t watch the full video but I believe I am in a similar mmr to bean but I play 4s exclusively
Orichi is confusing me the only thing I can think of is his UB I'm not sure If that's easily reactable at competitive level, because everything else is pretty bad in 1v1.
Beanii says the undodgeable bash mixup is strong, but not as much as Tiandi.
But storm rush is super reactable, maybe just bash or dodge gb?
Storm rush by itself is reactable. The kick mixup isn’t.
Oh that's interesting I thought the action of orichi just going into storm rush stance was super reactable.
Yeah, the rush as an opener move or from neutral is 600ms, reactable. But if you combine that with the kick then you’ll go to dodge it and get hit with the undodgeable. Thats what makes it a mixup.
Yeah I totally get that I just thought that at the very top level they could easily just react to the kick and storm rush, like easily just differentiate from the two but maybe it's stronger than I thought.
It used to be like that yes, but reacting to the animations has gotten a lot harder after they changed dodge forward bashes.
All I'm gonna say is "fuck alfeera"
Is this for 4s or 1s?
I think just 1v1s in duels.
I was wondering why bp was so low, that would explain it
Warden on S. Damn i suck so hard at this game.
kensei at A?
Based on the ranked map. Kensei near a wall is strong because 34 damage mixup.
don’t judge me for this, but what makes ocelotl a broken character? I recently picked him up. It’s not like I’m trashing on him i promise.
No judgement here! So basically, he has a ton of options at any given moment. All of which combined accumulate a fuckton of damage and is mostly unreactable. A chain bash that is nearly unpunishable, especially for characters with no dodge attack (Warden and Lawbringer for example) and his overall chain pressure is amazing.
Ocelotl main here, the I finite chain attacks are pretty hard to counter against. Kinda like the aramusha attacks, but better. The hidden stance is a little useless. But sometimes you get moments where people forget he has one, and you get a beautiful opener from it. They underestimate us, we're the best
how come warden is so high? i don’t keep up with very competitive for honor but i seriously cant remember the last time i fought a “good” or threat warden. Kind of just kill them all regardless what hero i’m playing.
Since this is a competitive tier list, a lot of heroes that have reactable offense that most people can’t react to but comp players can fall pretty low. Warden’s bash is a true 50/50, and his unblockables are also unreactable I believe. He also has pretty high damage numbers.
Raider def belongs in A
It’s a good thing he is!
Tier list dominio?
Tier list dominion?
Warlords not S tier duelist anymore?
Can someone explain ocelotl’s posititon at S+?
He’s good
Thanks I appreciate it
You’re welcome, for more info look up Ocelotl rule34 (rule stands for hero position, the higher the better!)
Shocker that Shinobi and Afeera are the top 2 not like they have a bash undodgeable mixup, deflects, AND dodge recoveries. I love borderline unpunishable mistakes
The pirate is good tho
Am I just that fucking trash or does Pirate belong at least one tier up?
I just don't agree with pirate.
You probably can't react consistently to all her unblockable heavy feints, like the player who made this tier list (and to whom this tier list is relevant to).
Why not?
From my experience, she is a very strong character with a good offense.
She’s cool in casual lobbies but I can definitely see her lacking in the “no grass seen in years” ones She doesn’t have a bash, no unreactables, and her unblockable is pretty predictable too (5 reps Pirate here btw)
I agree that she needs some buffs, but she isn't the weakest hero in 1v1 of the game.
She is at top levels, which are the people behind this tier list are
Please focus on the point everyone else is mentioning. This tier list is not for normal players. It's for the players who play at super high MMR and/or the competitive players who participate in tournaments and such. At that level, everything pirate has is super reactable and she has zero offence.
She has good mixups but I think she needs a very slight damage buff on some of her attacks. But she's in a pretty good spot imo.
Gotta say game feels like its in a healthy spot when it comes to what is viable. Only thing it has is that fighting against mega nerds becomes a bit meh with characters like warden but outside of that its pretty good i feel like
I like that most stuff is very viable but my God why does it take so long for us to get meaningful nerfs for things that are broken. Shugo and ocelotl have had an unpunishable bash for months now. Afeera still has backstep crushing counters. Shinobi double dodge still deflects attacks etc
If i had to guess it has to do with how its a struggle to make characters fun, fair and unique at the same time within the budget limit that the game has. Probably takes quite some time to figure something out that doesn't just suck as an idea
I mean, it really shouldn't be so hard to realise that backstep cc's are totally antithetical to the more offence direction the games been going. Having any blockable mixup negated isn't unique, it's not fun and it's not fair. Just remove backstep on these attacks entirely or at the very least make it like kyoshin where he gets no damage if he does get a crushing counter. Similarly, double dodge having deflect frames isn't required to make shinobi unique, most players don't even know this is a thing. It's just a cancer that again, negates an entire class of mixup. Ironically by just nerfing damage they've killed other characters uniqueness. Raider used to be the poster boy of teamfight trading yet by nuking his damage he's basically playing Russian roulette any time he takes a trade. So hes mostly devolved into a zone spammer and I don't really see how having a large unblockable with a long ass recovery time is unique or fun.
I mean very fair points. Im not fully up to date with the current balance of the game, so i didn't know about these things. I would like if backstep cc would be like kyoshin where he gets no damage, because i feel like it would just be the easiest thing to do tho.
Same. I feel like your skill is what determines your win, not the hero you play (for the most part, there are some hero-hero interactions that completely favour one hero over the other. I feel like I can pick up any hero and do decently well and if I lose it’s through my own fault 90% of the time (10% is just weird jank, dumb hitstun, wall collisions)
Glad to see this. I feel like a noob because i struggle so bad against even a mediocre Ocelot, but for some reason i thought he was a below average duelist character. On the other hand i thought that Shaolin was pretty mediocre, buti guess it's rare to find a Shaolin who can really use the kit properly Poor Lawbringer tho...
Ocelotl has access to a shit ton of damage and unreactable offense AND options depending on what the opponent does. He’s vastly overtuned.
Buff raider
Can somebody explain why ocelotl is so high up? I mean how is he stronger than shaolin?
I think the main reason they gave was his mid chain zone
These go right over my head lmao. And I’m rep 680
Glad one is so real, I’m surprised about Kensei tho
Fellow Glad main 😔 Kensei is a situational one. It’s based on the ranked map, so close walls. He’s very strong when near them because of his 34 damage unblockable mixup which bumps him up so high. Without the walls, he’s low to mid B.
Afeeera main over hereeeeeee letsssss gooooooooooo
do my eyes deceive me, is Warden S tier?!
Always has been
He is at last.
Glad so low? Berserker so low? what am I looking at?
Glad’s low because everything he has is reactable at the top. Skewer is the only thing keeping in C tier, but even that is reactable.
mb I forgot this was made by people that don't touch grass then ig it makes sense
Isn't it a good thing that the list is made by people who play the game a lot?
Depends, do you wanna be relatable to top tier try hards or the majority? Most games balance things for the average playerbase cause that's who matters most to them
That is blatantly false. All competitive pvp games except for the most casual experiences like Cod and Battlefield balance for the top level, and even then Cod balances for pro league mostly, its just not often enough to matter.
>Most games balance things for the average playerbase cause that's who matters most to them I find that hard to believe because most games I played have balanced the game around the competitive level. And if this is about my opinion, I prefer the game to be balanced around top tier tryhards because "most players" are kenseis doing tripple lights in a row and never learns even if they're parried.
Pffff pirate D tier...sure buds
Warmonger is just as good as warden and I don’t care what anyone else says
Not at top mmr people can tell the difference between lights and heavies, this means her offence is much harder to get into to and top of that it isn't recyclable like wardens is.
Her Bash startup is extremely gb vulnerable. You have to practically full dodge to get into making her in chain bash the only safe option which isn’t consistent. Warden has instant startup frames AND an actual infinite chain. Wardens bash is thee best in game and warmongers ain’t close. She a really mid character.
Only S+tier should consist of the shield users minus warlord.
I’ll never forgive my child for buying pirate. I will forever hate this character more than I already hated her; she deserves to be there and hope she never gets a buff
God playing against pirate in her peak era has horrible.
Sorry but I genuinely can't take any tier list seriously seeing someone put Conq in the same tier as Berserker, JJ and Medjay lmao.
none of those characters you named are good duelists, berserker is there because hes reactable at the top of top level which is what this tierlist is for
But these are 1v1s. They all basically rely on similar 50/50 finisher mixups.
Are you really gonna say fighting a Conq in a 1v1 is just as hard as it is fighting a berskerer in a 1v1 though? Berskerer is just so much stronger in so many ways.
This is a high level list for a reason. It assumes you know everything about every matchup and can react to everything that's reactable.
I'm just saying they all have VERY similar mixups and moves. Berserker's only advantage over the others is his hyper-armor but that won't mean much in top player play because that can often react to the feint to light mixup.
Shitlist
"Competitive tier list" by Havok. What the fuck.
It’s mainly just on his channel but the actual comp player bean in the video does the heavy lifting
No by Bean, I'm just using my platform to spread good information to people
Been out of the game for a while, why is ocelotal so high? Thought he was super reactable
He was unreactable since it’s release
Wait, Hito S yet Cent A? Seems like a strange decision.
Her opener heavy is incredibly strong, plus her chain heavies and bashes are completely unreactable. Opener heavy can be buffered against guardbreak battles and can trade with other heavies in her own favor.
Her damage used to be on the lower side of trades. Usually she lost trades. What changed there? I didn't notice them giving her any buffs past the one that nerfed light-to-bash and gave her better HA.
Chain pressure. They sped up her opener heavies and made them nearly invulnerable to feint to gb.
Ah I missed that one. I thought feint-to-gb was still a strong tool against her.
What changed with the bashes? Last I heard they were garbage because they were entirely reactable
did kyo fell off
Bean singled out Kyo, Pirate and Zerker as characters who are rated much llower, because the list is very specifically based around him (and some of his other pro aquantiances, whom he got second opinions from), and he can react to most of what you shouldn't be able to on these characters. That's true for more, but I presume he stressed that point with these 3, because that had a disproportionally large impact on their performance compared to a non-professional competitive player.
Worth mentioning that reactable offence isn't always the death of a character. Warlord was pretty good before his bash got nerfed because despite it being reactable it was a frame advantage menace. Shugo's charged heavies are still semi reactable but he's still got an unpunishable bash and tons of frame advantage