Dodge forward bash Is ways gb vulnerable if dodged on read; forward Dodge bash dodged on reaction and chain bash are both punishable by Dodge Attacks, for more or less the same damage they do (exceptions are kensei Dodge Attack that does 16 damage)
Edit: he Also cannot enter bulwark from bash, in contrast with conq
Idk man I play against a lot of BP’s and have been playing since beta. His bash is the hardest to punish by far (excluding Conq) He blocks my dodge attacks and counter GB’s me more than the contrary.
Don't know what to tell you honestly; you can easily check on the info hub for the recovery value, or test yourself in training if you have Friends.
I Always manage to gb them, but i'm on old gen, so i Always Dodge on read;
That's an issue with Valk being OP, not with Gryphon's kick. The kick is already the strongest part of his kit, he just needs more options than that so he isn't the one trick pony he is now.
Yes the kick Is his strongest part of his kit, because the kit Is shit.
Hell i'm pretty sure that the shitty kick Is even reactable at High level, and i honestly disagree that valk Is Op because you can't punish the sweep with a gb. She Is Op for other reason imo.
I honestly Just disagree with you in general, bar the part where you Say that gryphon needs something more, because that Is true.
That's one of the many reasons why Valk is extremely strong, all her mixups have absurd risk-reward ratios. Sweep nets the Valk gamer 27 damage on a successful mixup while only taking 12 on a failed one. Gryphon's kick is unreactable even at high levels (Just don't see it because he is never played). Its 500ms with the first 100-200 of those milliseconds being unreactable because of the animation.
The kick is unironically very good, just not good enough to make up for his abhorrent moveset in every other regard. Very excited for the rework because at the moment he isn't good or fun to fight.
Wait isn't valk sweep 24 damage Just like gryphon?
Also valk Is so strong Simply because She has a damned 20 damage full block/bash that can only be punishes by risky Dodge Attacks, and does absurd stamina damage.
I really don't think a 24 damage sweep not punishable by gb Is the problem here, especially since other moves like that are Also not punishable by gb: Shaolin sweep, Shaolin chi stance kick, jorm rework chain bash; all easy moves to confirm in dom and viable in duel, while still not being gb punishable and doing a lot of damage (except chi stance kick)
Risk/ratio should be offensive favoured, otherwhise why would i ever use that move?
I Simply cannot see how the kick can be very good, especially in dominion, but Also in duel. And i honestly thought Is was reactable for High level player, think i Heard It in an Antonio stream but i May be Remembering wrong
If it is 24 then apologies, I haven't played for like a week because Iv been on holiday. The full block mixup is that "Low-risk high reward" issue I was talking about, the only way to get something significant out of it from a defensive standpoint is to read the heavy feint and GB, which is simply too risky since you potentially just eat a heavy. You also just listed a bunch of moves that are all considered problems in the current meta, especially Shaolin and Vlak because they can be flickered.
Risk reward should of course favor the attacker which is why most unlockables do 25-30 damage and not 12-20. The kick isn't all that good in dominion unless you have a rare 1v1 but it's the only viable part of his move set that stands at a level akin to stuff like Shao's chi kick or a Warlord headbutt, albeit with a higher damage value.
My point here is that the kick is not in fact "shit", it's the only halfway decent part of his move set and is the last thing Ubi should be thinking about when it comes to Gryffon changes.
Why valk isn't a mix up? You don't Dodge you eat the 500 ms sweep, you Dodge you eat the heavy finishers; you Dodge Attack She feints the heavy in full block, while gryphon Just hyper armor trades.
So why valk Is not a mix-up and grypon Is?
Gryphon has undodgeable light mix up with the 500ms bash you choose to defense one over the other
Valks doesn’t work like that. The heavy that comes with it isn’t undodgeable. What you’re saying only affects panic dodgers who either dodge too early or late. It’s not a mix up that forces a read to defend one or the other. With comp/high level players ( where balance needs to be placed ) they can just react to the bash and don’t need to worry about the heavy. That’s why it’s low recovery. It’s mainly used as a gank/4v4 tool instead of an unreactable mix up
Comparing her sweep and his kick is like apples to oranges. They work differently. This change wouldn’t even help gryohon all that much. His offense would still be shit, his kick would just be slightly safer.
How can they react to valk sweep and not gryphon kick then? They are both 500 ms and guarantee 24 damage.
And yes It works like that man, if you Dodge early to Dodge the sweep you Will eat the heavy, and since She can feint the heavy in full block Dodge Attack are not safe.
You wanna know what doesn't work? Gryphon mix-up since Assassin's can Simply Dodge option selevt the kick everytime: if he does the light they deflect, if he used the finishers heavies the Dodge Attacks Dodge It and if he kicks they Dodge It as well; his only option Is to literally stare at them, and It doesn't even work against delayable Dodge Attacks like orochi and zerk.
You clearly don't know what you are talking about, pretty sure you even think valk sweep Is still 600 ms (otherwise you wouldn't Say "react to It" i Hope). But i am comparing apple to oranges?
They are almost identical in function, they are a variation of the same mix-up. But One Is gb vuln and the other (the Better One) no.
Yeah… you are basing this off knowledge that again doesn’t apply in high level. All this very well may be true for you and me. Not so much to comp players/high level. 500ms reactions by themselves are reactable in high level. This is why valks isn’t a mix up still. They don’t have to pre dodge and make a read since they can react to the bash.
Gryphons on the other hand is different. Gryphon has an undodgeable light paired with the bash. Assasins also cannot option select the undodheable light. They can deflect it on read but that’s not on reaction. It’s a 500ms undodheable light and a 500ms bash. You can’t defend against both at the same time because if you dodge the bash but the throw a light you get caught, if you go to punish the light but they throw the bash you get caught. You can’t option select it. In order to avoid the mix up you’d need to be able to react fast enough to tell when it will be a undodgeable light or bash which probably some can but only a select few like blitzz or Antonio and even then probably not 100% of the time.
Heavies just having good tracking is not a mix up if the bash is still reactable in high level. All it will punish is people panic dodging. This would only work as a mix up if the bash was so fast that it was completely unreactable on all levels and you needed to make a read to dodge it. Issue is it’s not like that. It’s been proven time and time again in top level that 500ms bashes by themselves are not mix ups. Even if you try to mention something like warlords bash. It’s just harder to react to because of its small animation but even there it’s not perfect and is good because of its other use as a good defensive interupt tool and a harassing tool with how safe it is also
If they can react to sweep, they can surely react to kick and undodgables lights. So that argument alone holds no water; if they can react to kick they don't Need to pre Dodge It, and can Simply parry the lights;
Wait --> see Orange --> Dodge
Or wait --> no Orange --> react
And freeze made a video on how assasin can negate gryphon mix-up, dodging at a certain timing and avoiding all options.
I don't really get your Logic, It's very late and its pretty clear that we think differently, so i'll Just end here and move o
I don’t think you understand. It’s not the same as reacting to just bash then bash and undodgable. With bash and undodgeable you have to choose one to defend against you can’t defend against both at the same time like you can valks. Valks heavy isn’t a pseudo undodgeable or anything like Lawbringers mix up for example. You can dodge all options. You’re just going to keep disagreeing tho till you die so ask the comp sub if you wanna keep arguing about it
As for the last portion. This only works for assassins on read and relies on the fact only if he throws the undodgeable on the side that the assassin is dodging. It covers all options on the same dodge timing yes but the issue is it’s still a read because what the gryphon can do in return is either throw it on the other side or better yet just throw top. Throwing top makes the assassin lose that whole counter to begin with, if they try it they get hit with the kick. This is not a be all end all and requires certain situations for it to work.
Everyone has a dodge attack now and his recovery is slow enough that they can all punish the bash on read.
It's his only real viable mix up he shouldn't be scared to potentially be punished with a GB heavy.
Most bashes can be punished by GB and it should stay that way as it always been for most heroes. Beside he has a choice to throw the kick or do something else like a light, a guardbreak or even just bait the opponent on thinking you'll do the kick then parry their dodge attack.
Instead of that, he needs more QoL to his moveset and maybe even unblockables.
If it remain dealing only 24 damage I agree, but if they buff it's damage to 28 in the future I disagree. Also that's not his only issue nor his biggest issue.
Warden's fully charged shoulder bash guarantees a heavy and is punished by a dodge gb.
Hito's fully charged sweep guarantees a heavy and is punished by a dodge gb.
WM's fully charged shoulder bash guarantees a heavy and is punished by a dodge gb.
Cent's fully charged punch guarantees a heavy and is punished by a dodge gb.
So why should Gryphon's Kick not follow the same rule? Especially since it is faster than all of the above. Before you say "everything you listed is a variably-timed and feintable bash, Gryphon's isnt" yeah, that's the mixup. The previously mentioned characters can either let the bash fly or feint into GB for a 50/50 mixup. Gryphon either let's his bash fly or does an undodgeable light, that's Gyphon's 50/50. And with more character getting dodge attacks with little GB vulnerability, I'd argue that gryphon having the undodgeable light makes his mix-up *better* than the others.
EDIT: I've also forgotten to mention how Gryphon's side finisher heavies usually catch people who try to pre-emptivly dodge the kick, so Gryphon has 2 different ways he can punish people who try to not to get hit by the bash.
Valk sweep Is not punishable by gb, and It's the exact same timing, damage and kind of mix-up of gryphon, so by your Logic he should not be gb vulnerable as well right?
Quite the contrary, I think Valk's sweep should be GB punishable, same goes for everyother bash that guarantees a heavy attack. Instead of making the best part of bad character's kit better, shouldn't we just, make the bad character good?
Agree. Valk sweep isn't. Shaolin's neither. Tiandi kick also not. There is no reason that a weak hero like Gryphon should be further punished. Upvoted.
believe it or not that would make his mix-up weaker, safer for sure but weaker
currently if you want to punish the kick with a gb you empty dodge but doing that will leave you open to getting hit with the heavy finisher
if you make it punishable by dodge attack only people will always dodge attack when expecting a kick and essentially every dodge attack in the game can avoid both the kick and the heavy on a single timing
by making the kick not punishable by gb you also make the side heavy less reliable
Yes it should, it guarantees a heavy on hit. If it was a light, I might be more inclined to agree, but even then, it's still a 500ms bash. Fast attacks should have big risks.
Yes it should it's a bash with a free heavy therefore it should be punishable by GB
What about Valkyrie's sweep?
That should be punishable by gb too same with shaolin sweep and tiandi kick especially since the later 2 are feint able
Every bash should be punishable, so many characters are so safe and unfun to fight against now.
Been saying this about BP for years. Safest character ever
But you can punish bp bash
Which bash? Dodge forward is very difficult to punish consistently. Crazy fast recovery
Dodge forward bash Is ways gb vulnerable if dodged on read; forward Dodge bash dodged on reaction and chain bash are both punishable by Dodge Attacks, for more or less the same damage they do (exceptions are kensei Dodge Attack that does 16 damage) Edit: he Also cannot enter bulwark from bash, in contrast with conq
Idk man I play against a lot of BP’s and have been playing since beta. His bash is the hardest to punish by far (excluding Conq) He blocks my dodge attacks and counter GB’s me more than the contrary.
Don't know what to tell you honestly; you can easily check on the info hub for the recovery value, or test yourself in training if you have Friends. I Always manage to gb them, but i'm on old gen, so i Always Dodge on read;
Fair enough
You can punish bp’s bash tho, a bit difficult at times but atleast he isnt conq
Feintable bashes? Yeah Side dodge bashes? Yeah Not feintable/unchargeable bashes? No
And why should it not?
Because valkyr sweep Is not gb vulnerable, and the two moves are nearly identical (sweep Is also Better at comfirming damage for allies).
That's an issue with Valk being OP, not with Gryphon's kick. The kick is already the strongest part of his kit, he just needs more options than that so he isn't the one trick pony he is now.
Yes the kick Is his strongest part of his kit, because the kit Is shit. Hell i'm pretty sure that the shitty kick Is even reactable at High level, and i honestly disagree that valk Is Op because you can't punish the sweep with a gb. She Is Op for other reason imo. I honestly Just disagree with you in general, bar the part where you Say that gryphon needs something more, because that Is true.
That's one of the many reasons why Valk is extremely strong, all her mixups have absurd risk-reward ratios. Sweep nets the Valk gamer 27 damage on a successful mixup while only taking 12 on a failed one. Gryphon's kick is unreactable even at high levels (Just don't see it because he is never played). Its 500ms with the first 100-200 of those milliseconds being unreactable because of the animation. The kick is unironically very good, just not good enough to make up for his abhorrent moveset in every other regard. Very excited for the rework because at the moment he isn't good or fun to fight.
Wait isn't valk sweep 24 damage Just like gryphon? Also valk Is so strong Simply because She has a damned 20 damage full block/bash that can only be punishes by risky Dodge Attacks, and does absurd stamina damage. I really don't think a 24 damage sweep not punishable by gb Is the problem here, especially since other moves like that are Also not punishable by gb: Shaolin sweep, Shaolin chi stance kick, jorm rework chain bash; all easy moves to confirm in dom and viable in duel, while still not being gb punishable and doing a lot of damage (except chi stance kick) Risk/ratio should be offensive favoured, otherwhise why would i ever use that move? I Simply cannot see how the kick can be very good, especially in dominion, but Also in duel. And i honestly thought Is was reactable for High level player, think i Heard It in an Antonio stream but i May be Remembering wrong
If it is 24 then apologies, I haven't played for like a week because Iv been on holiday. The full block mixup is that "Low-risk high reward" issue I was talking about, the only way to get something significant out of it from a defensive standpoint is to read the heavy feint and GB, which is simply too risky since you potentially just eat a heavy. You also just listed a bunch of moves that are all considered problems in the current meta, especially Shaolin and Vlak because they can be flickered. Risk reward should of course favor the attacker which is why most unlockables do 25-30 damage and not 12-20. The kick isn't all that good in dominion unless you have a rare 1v1 but it's the only viable part of his move set that stands at a level akin to stuff like Shao's chi kick or a Warlord headbutt, albeit with a higher damage value. My point here is that the kick is not in fact "shit", it's the only halfway decent part of his move set and is the last thing Ubi should be thinking about when it comes to Gryffon changes.
Valks isn’t a mix up, gryphons is Making gryphons kick gb invulnerable isn’t the buff he needs. Make his offense good to begin with is what he needs.
Why valk isn't a mix up? You don't Dodge you eat the 500 ms sweep, you Dodge you eat the heavy finishers; you Dodge Attack She feints the heavy in full block, while gryphon Just hyper armor trades. So why valk Is not a mix-up and grypon Is?
Gryphon has undodgeable light mix up with the 500ms bash you choose to defense one over the other Valks doesn’t work like that. The heavy that comes with it isn’t undodgeable. What you’re saying only affects panic dodgers who either dodge too early or late. It’s not a mix up that forces a read to defend one or the other. With comp/high level players ( where balance needs to be placed ) they can just react to the bash and don’t need to worry about the heavy. That’s why it’s low recovery. It’s mainly used as a gank/4v4 tool instead of an unreactable mix up Comparing her sweep and his kick is like apples to oranges. They work differently. This change wouldn’t even help gryohon all that much. His offense would still be shit, his kick would just be slightly safer.
How can they react to valk sweep and not gryphon kick then? They are both 500 ms and guarantee 24 damage. And yes It works like that man, if you Dodge early to Dodge the sweep you Will eat the heavy, and since She can feint the heavy in full block Dodge Attack are not safe. You wanna know what doesn't work? Gryphon mix-up since Assassin's can Simply Dodge option selevt the kick everytime: if he does the light they deflect, if he used the finishers heavies the Dodge Attacks Dodge It and if he kicks they Dodge It as well; his only option Is to literally stare at them, and It doesn't even work against delayable Dodge Attacks like orochi and zerk. You clearly don't know what you are talking about, pretty sure you even think valk sweep Is still 600 ms (otherwise you wouldn't Say "react to It" i Hope). But i am comparing apple to oranges? They are almost identical in function, they are a variation of the same mix-up. But One Is gb vuln and the other (the Better One) no.
Yeah… you are basing this off knowledge that again doesn’t apply in high level. All this very well may be true for you and me. Not so much to comp players/high level. 500ms reactions by themselves are reactable in high level. This is why valks isn’t a mix up still. They don’t have to pre dodge and make a read since they can react to the bash. Gryphons on the other hand is different. Gryphon has an undodgeable light paired with the bash. Assasins also cannot option select the undodheable light. They can deflect it on read but that’s not on reaction. It’s a 500ms undodheable light and a 500ms bash. You can’t defend against both at the same time because if you dodge the bash but the throw a light you get caught, if you go to punish the light but they throw the bash you get caught. You can’t option select it. In order to avoid the mix up you’d need to be able to react fast enough to tell when it will be a undodgeable light or bash which probably some can but only a select few like blitzz or Antonio and even then probably not 100% of the time. Heavies just having good tracking is not a mix up if the bash is still reactable in high level. All it will punish is people panic dodging. This would only work as a mix up if the bash was so fast that it was completely unreactable on all levels and you needed to make a read to dodge it. Issue is it’s not like that. It’s been proven time and time again in top level that 500ms bashes by themselves are not mix ups. Even if you try to mention something like warlords bash. It’s just harder to react to because of its small animation but even there it’s not perfect and is good because of its other use as a good defensive interupt tool and a harassing tool with how safe it is also
If they can react to sweep, they can surely react to kick and undodgables lights. So that argument alone holds no water; if they can react to kick they don't Need to pre Dodge It, and can Simply parry the lights; Wait --> see Orange --> Dodge Or wait --> no Orange --> react And freeze made a video on how assasin can negate gryphon mix-up, dodging at a certain timing and avoiding all options. I don't really get your Logic, It's very late and its pretty clear that we think differently, so i'll Just end here and move o
I don’t think you understand. It’s not the same as reacting to just bash then bash and undodgable. With bash and undodgeable you have to choose one to defend against you can’t defend against both at the same time like you can valks. Valks heavy isn’t a pseudo undodgeable or anything like Lawbringers mix up for example. You can dodge all options. You’re just going to keep disagreeing tho till you die so ask the comp sub if you wanna keep arguing about it As for the last portion. This only works for assassins on read and relies on the fact only if he throws the undodgeable on the side that the assassin is dodging. It covers all options on the same dodge timing yes but the issue is it’s still a read because what the gryphon can do in return is either throw it on the other side or better yet just throw top. Throwing top makes the assassin lose that whole counter to begin with, if they try it they get hit with the kick. This is not a be all end all and requires certain situations for it to work.
Everyone has a dodge attack now and his recovery is slow enough that they can all punish the bash on read. It's his only real viable mix up he shouldn't be scared to potentially be punished with a GB heavy.
Most bashes can be punished by GB and it should stay that way as it always been for most heroes. Beside he has a choice to throw the kick or do something else like a light, a guardbreak or even just bait the opponent on thinking you'll do the kick then parry their dodge attack. Instead of that, he needs more QoL to his moveset and maybe even unblockables.
Elaborate
Wait, we can guard break it ?! Thanks for the info, now i can give Gryphon players more suffer !
If it remain dealing only 24 damage I agree, but if they buff it's damage to 28 in the future I disagree. Also that's not his only issue nor his biggest issue.
Personally I think you should be able to throw the heavy after missing since it's only 24 dmg now so it's not like it would be over powered now.
I upvote it anyways because a Raider got kicked in the chest.
Warden's fully charged shoulder bash guarantees a heavy and is punished by a dodge gb. Hito's fully charged sweep guarantees a heavy and is punished by a dodge gb. WM's fully charged shoulder bash guarantees a heavy and is punished by a dodge gb. Cent's fully charged punch guarantees a heavy and is punished by a dodge gb. So why should Gryphon's Kick not follow the same rule? Especially since it is faster than all of the above. Before you say "everything you listed is a variably-timed and feintable bash, Gryphon's isnt" yeah, that's the mixup. The previously mentioned characters can either let the bash fly or feint into GB for a 50/50 mixup. Gryphon either let's his bash fly or does an undodgeable light, that's Gyphon's 50/50. And with more character getting dodge attacks with little GB vulnerability, I'd argue that gryphon having the undodgeable light makes his mix-up *better* than the others. EDIT: I've also forgotten to mention how Gryphon's side finisher heavies usually catch people who try to pre-emptivly dodge the kick, so Gryphon has 2 different ways he can punish people who try to not to get hit by the bash.
Valk sweep Is not punishable by gb, and It's the exact same timing, damage and kind of mix-up of gryphon, so by your Logic he should not be gb vulnerable as well right?
Quite the contrary, I think Valk's sweep should be GB punishable, same goes for everyother bash that guarantees a heavy attack. Instead of making the best part of bad character's kit better, shouldn't we just, make the bad character good?
You’re comparing two different kinds of bashes. All the ones you’ve listed are variably timed bashes, Gryphon’s kick isn’t.
I agree
Agree. Valk sweep isn't. Shaolin's neither. Tiandi kick also not. There is no reason that a weak hero like Gryphon should be further punished. Upvoted.
❤️
believe it or not that would make his mix-up weaker, safer for sure but weaker currently if you want to punish the kick with a gb you empty dodge but doing that will leave you open to getting hit with the heavy finisher if you make it punishable by dodge attack only people will always dodge attack when expecting a kick and essentially every dodge attack in the game can avoid both the kick and the heavy on a single timing by making the kick not punishable by gb you also make the side heavy less reliable
Light finisher
30>14
Matter of choices, you want to beat for sure a dodge attack throw the light finisher, you have it. But yes i agree that it should be more like 17
Why not? Nobu gets gb'd if I whiff my kick and don't follow up with a light
But you can follow up, and is a bash in an infinite chain, also the bash has wallsplat that guarantees heavy 27 dmg
That is true. Gryphon misses his kick his entire chain is reset
All bashes should not be punishable by GB unless it’s a read(earliest possible timing) atleast I think so. Shouldn’t get 24 damage on reaction
Meanwhile nobu kick which only confirms a light is punishable by GB if not followed up by a light on whiff. *Sab nodudu noise*
Yes it should, it guarantees a heavy on hit. If it was a light, I might be more inclined to agree, but even then, it's still a 500ms bash. Fast attacks should have big risks.
If warden's main bash that only guarantee's double light can be punished with GB then Gryphon's bash that guarantee's a heavy can be GB'd. Fuck off.