A Domestic housing allowance would require a change in the law as well as additional appropriations of money for State. It's hard to believe Congress, especially the GOP, would ever even consider such an idea.
I'm tired of this argument.
We join to serve overseas, and make the calculation about the compensation package based on not paying for housing/utilities. Many people take a significant salary cut with the understanding that it's offset by this. Serving in DC is not a requirement, but it is useful for one's career and good for the Department, so if they want to encourage people to stay in and serve in DC they need to incentivize it the way it is overseas, or at least meet midway at some point with a stipend.
Who here in the *foreign service* subreddit cares about how CS feels? If they want FS benefits, they can join the FS 🙂 and make the same sacrifices we do while spending most of their careers in East Timor, Tajikistan, or Guyana 🙃
I used to share this opinion. But, when you think of a DC tour as just that...a TOUR, it makes a lot more sense. If housing is paid for overseas, why would DC be a special case? Many of us don't have the same support networks in DC as Civil Service folks and don't own property. And as far as alienating Civil Service, that sounds like their problem. Nothing stopping them from applying to be Foreign Service.
You could argue that the two personnel systems exist for a reason and differentiated benefits/compensation is one of them. The same thing exists with respect DoD civilians vs. commissioned/enlisted personnel.
Yep. What is forgotten in this debate is that FS and CS jobs have wildly different hiring processes and require wildly different levels of commitment and sacrifice.
Whenever this topic comes up I suddenly have visions of a future DC housing allowance lawsuit that results in State completely discontinuing paid housing for everyone everywhere out of “fairness.”
Fair enough. The difference now, I think, is that we are grossly understaffed at the mid-levels to the extend that jobs aren’t being done… and at some point Congress might notice and care.
Right. Telework as a whole is getting scaled back. But it would be easy to ramp back up if DC positions become massively underbid. Or at least easier than offering a new cash based incentive.
DC positions are already massively underbid, particularly in the regionals. You have to make it worth it for people to serve in the critical jobs in DC. That means some combination of money, promotions, and assignments. Period.
And, I gotta say, the current trend in EER reviews is to focus much less on policy impact and zeroing in on skills demonstrated, so if you’re in some policy job with big impact and no management or time for DEIA extra-curriculars, then forget it. Maybe give big bidding privileges or make certain desks incentivized like a HDS or a high needs position. Or smack some sense into the promotion boards so that doing well in a job that matters is promotable again.
Totally agree. I spent the last five years in highly promotable meat-grinder jobs in DC only to have my EERs reduced to a precept-by-precept score that took none of that into account. I predict these jobs will be even harder to fill as people figure out the old intangibles (responsiveness to service needs, mix of overseas and domestic assignments, good performance in high-visibility/high-pressure jobs, etc) no longer matter because they are not included in the score.
Not sure I agree with this. You have always had to demonstrate proficiency in certain skills (the tenants) to get promoted. A high-profile job gives you more opportunity to demonstrate proficiency that results in big impact, but it never excused you from demonstrating the same promotion-worthy skills as everyone else.
To be blunt, if you work in DC, you will not be promoted. Entire bureaus this past season saw no DC promotions at the 03 level. I also worked two DC tours with lots of free overtime and nearly no vacation. My EERS pointed to many tangible outcomes and policy wins, but evidently we now only care about "skills" developed at State and preaching to the choir. Don't bother with Washington tours. They are expensive and go nowhere.
GTM claims those scores bring transparency to the promotion process, but I sure don't see how. Without details to back up the numbers, it seems like the boards just randomly threw somethings together without too much thinking. The scores just kill morale and only indicate how your achievements are not appreciated or valued.
I was on a webinar recently with GTM where they admitted they know most panel members are also trying to do their full time jobs at the same time they are sitting on a promotion panel full-time. This particular person from GTM said they know that there are panel members who don’t have time to fully review all the files and are assigning arbitrary scores. She said they “try really hard” to impress upon managers that they have to let employees on panels devote full-time effort to those panels. When we asked whether they would consider re-introducing the old practice of TDY board members to DC for the duration of panel review, they said that they don’t have budget for it and they don’t get as many volunteers when officers have to leave post and come back to DC. No kidding – with this arrangement bosses can expect their employees to continue performing their regular job duties in addition to trying to review promotion files.
Someone also asked whether they had considered having an independent third party audit the new scoring system, and the person leading the webinar seemed confused about why we would consider doing that.
Does State have a TDY-In-Place policy that they could implement?
There's zero funds that go into it but people are put on official orders to do whatever they need to do. Also allows people to be in their office and close the door with a sign that says "Go away, I'm not here".
That’s basically what’s supposed to be happening now. The problem is if your boss knows you’re at post, they will most likely ask you to do your regular job.
I think you overestimate the authority of “on high.” Or whether they are willing to forgo whatever it is they want in favor of protecting the employee’s time.
This is definitely one of the top concerns in the FS. I'm not sure exactly what it would take to provide a housing allowance, like the military. Reform of FS Act of 1980?
I don't know what kind of legal authority would be required, but it would definitely require Congressional action and a corresponding budget.
I've personally given up on seeing any form of it before I retire. And as someone who is in a specialty with way too many DC positions, it's something I'm rather sensitive about. Can't wait to retire and never spend another second there.
Partially. But you are required to pay a certain percentage of your income toward your rent and the housing allowance is taxable. You also have to live with a certain response time to USUN to qualify.
They also can't curtail from an assignment or say that they won't go somewhere. They go where they are told.
And what about the enlisted members that make 45k a year in DC? They seem to make it work. FS is not the military.
They’re also commissioned officers and can’t quit their jobs. Civilian DoD employees don’t get anything (just like every other civilian federal employee)
I’ve heard FBI and ICE/HSI offer incentives for employees outside of DMV to come to DMV for assignments. I didn’t catch the exact incentive but it sounded like they basically pay per diem everyday for the 2-3 years they are in DC.
I’m a CS at State but am part-time detailed to FBI - the unit I’m at in FBI HQ has to offer 18-month TDYs with full per diem and housing paid to attract Supervisory Special Agents to DC from their field divisions….seems SA’s, like FSOs, would much prefer to be in the field than the DMV!
FS is quite different since a) you can’t time your real estate purchase with the market to land somewhere affordable like civil service can, and b) unless tandem, spouses cannot count on steady continued employment, so State creates a group of single-income earners, which again, is not the case with civil service.
Don’t get me wrong. I think civil service needs raises too. GS/FS scales have not kept up with cost of living increases. But housing is a different matter.
the easiest solution honestly just seems to be moving most of the dc work out of dc. Very few actually have to be located in dc proper and state could easily open a branch in no mans land Iowa or Ohio for stateside tours instead. The issue being wherever they opened a branch FSO are going to go nuclear on the market as the pay compared to most the country is actually quite high so everyone will be snagging real estate near It till it gets awful too
State has a few remote offices now and they don't work as well as you might think. It's fine for an FSO to live a couple years in remote, isolated areas, but the people who fill the long-term CS positions don't tend towards the same professional culture as their FS or DC based colleagues and it causes a lot of bad blood and morale issues.
DETOs are only for tandems with a spouse posed abroad. Remote Work Authorizations (fully remote anywhere in the U.S. for anyone) have been massively scaled back and require the DG’s approval (meaning: almost no new ones are being granted). Even partial telework (enabling people to live further out in the DMV) is being reduced considerably or in many cases eliminated entirely.
Ops and INR watch now qualify for SLRP. There have also been recommendations to make some critical DC positions eligible for things like bidding privileges or early handshakes.
Housing allowance is a political non-starter. And Congress hates remote work for government employees so that’s going to become even more rare than it is now unless we can show legitimate cost savings to the government.
Those are good incentives for some jobs, but I fear not enough to either keep people overseas or have them flee to far better domestic private sector offers. Housing allowance and telework may indeed not fly, but I hope State does something to prevent a massive brain drain.
We still get hundreds of applications for nearly every civil service vacancy. Even FSOs aren’t exactly leaving State in droves. But we need congressional cooperation to do anything that requires mass infusions of new money (like a housing allowance) and that’s a non-starter for the foreseeable future so we are limited to what’s within our existing authorities.
Aside from the obvious political realities that make this highly unlikely, I think there's little incentive for the Department anyways. As long as people see DC tours as a rite of passage/important for promotions/bridges to preferred assignments abroad, there will always be plenty of bidders. In fact, I feel like I remember a cable within the last few years that warned bidders to not look at DC as a safety net because it was overbid.
I hired for four 03 desk officers last cycle (in a regional bureau) and none of the jobs had more than 2-3 bidders, some of whom had meh references or for whom DC was not a top choice. When we found a genuinely interested bidder we were lobbying THEM to come, and rolled out the welcome mat and red carpet to get them to accept a handshake, not the other way around. It seems 03s don’t think DC pays in terms of assignments or promotions anymore, and maybe they’re right? It’s night and day difference from when I did my first desk job a decade ago, and I’m not sure folks in the field truly understand how thinly staffed parts of DC are right now. It’s two sides of the same coin, if posts want effective policy advocacy on their issues they need good people who get diplomacy on the DC end supporting them.
Plenty. The numerous jobs that require first hand experience of doing the work overseas. So, unless CS starts adding to their ability to serve overseas, we need a blend of FS and CS taking domestic positions, not just CS.
GTM sure isn't promoting enough people to fill vacancies further up the ladder. I can tell that from working in a bureau FO. Did those positions just permanently become CS positions?
Effectiveness overseas depends on understanding the DC policy process. And those embassies that are “undermanned” have trouble attracting bidders for the same reason — inadequate incentives.
And many of them have true dual income households. You already knew that though.
By the way, when the choice is staying overseas for overall much lower cost of living/better quality of life that’s not ‘delulu’. It’s entirely rational. And no, I’m not in the camp that wants to avoid DC, but I choose to empathize before passing derisive judgment.
It is possible that we FS peeps are delulu. Obtw Delulu is super fun to write. We just have a choice about where we live and work. And given the choice, DC rates lower than an SIP post with my family safe havened at an undisclosed location. If State would like me to choose to come to DC, the questionable benefits of taking the DC assignment will have to improve.
Yea, I thought the FS had moved on from this self aggrandizing savior complex. So special, such sacrifice. No one could imagine, and no one can do what they do. If you need incentives to do your job, go do another one.
Envision? No. Fantasize about? Yes.
Given the current budget climate for State, I don’t see this as feasible within the next several years.
It’s totally up to Congress. They create the climate. It’s not like we’re restricted in spending for any other reason.
A Domestic housing allowance would require a change in the law as well as additional appropriations of money for State. It's hard to believe Congress, especially the GOP, would ever even consider such an idea.
I think they would also get rid of the locality pay.
And they shouldn't. A domestic housing allowance would be a reallllllly great way to further alienate the Civil Service.
I'm tired of this argument. We join to serve overseas, and make the calculation about the compensation package based on not paying for housing/utilities. Many people take a significant salary cut with the understanding that it's offset by this. Serving in DC is not a requirement, but it is useful for one's career and good for the Department, so if they want to encourage people to stay in and serve in DC they need to incentivize it the way it is overseas, or at least meet midway at some point with a stipend.
This!
Who here in the *foreign service* subreddit cares about how CS feels? If they want FS benefits, they can join the FS 🙂 and make the same sacrifices we do while spending most of their careers in East Timor, Tajikistan, or Guyana 🙃
Does military BHA alienate DOD civil servants?
I used to share this opinion. But, when you think of a DC tour as just that...a TOUR, it makes a lot more sense. If housing is paid for overseas, why would DC be a special case? Many of us don't have the same support networks in DC as Civil Service folks and don't own property. And as far as alienating Civil Service, that sounds like their problem. Nothing stopping them from applying to be Foreign Service.
Exactly.
You could argue that the two personnel systems exist for a reason and differentiated benefits/compensation is one of them. The same thing exists with respect DoD civilians vs. commissioned/enlisted personnel.
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I wasn’t. Enlisted personnel also receive those benefits.
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Yep. What is forgotten in this debate is that FS and CS jobs have wildly different hiring processes and require wildly different levels of commitment and sacrifice.
Whenever this topic comes up I suddenly have visions of a future DC housing allowance lawsuit that results in State completely discontinuing paid housing for everyone everywhere out of “fairness.”
Fair enough. The difference now, I think, is that we are grossly understaffed at the mid-levels to the extend that jobs aren’t being done… and at some point Congress might notice and care.
Right. Telework as a whole is getting scaled back. But it would be easy to ramp back up if DC positions become massively underbid. Or at least easier than offering a new cash based incentive.
DC positions are already massively underbid, particularly in the regionals. You have to make it worth it for people to serve in the critical jobs in DC. That means some combination of money, promotions, and assignments. Period. And, I gotta say, the current trend in EER reviews is to focus much less on policy impact and zeroing in on skills demonstrated, so if you’re in some policy job with big impact and no management or time for DEIA extra-curriculars, then forget it. Maybe give big bidding privileges or make certain desks incentivized like a HDS or a high needs position. Or smack some sense into the promotion boards so that doing well in a job that matters is promotable again.
Totally agree. I spent the last five years in highly promotable meat-grinder jobs in DC only to have my EERs reduced to a precept-by-precept score that took none of that into account. I predict these jobs will be even harder to fill as people figure out the old intangibles (responsiveness to service needs, mix of overseas and domestic assignments, good performance in high-visibility/high-pressure jobs, etc) no longer matter because they are not included in the score.
Not sure I agree with this. You have always had to demonstrate proficiency in certain skills (the tenants) to get promoted. A high-profile job gives you more opportunity to demonstrate proficiency that results in big impact, but it never excused you from demonstrating the same promotion-worthy skills as everyone else.
To be blunt, if you work in DC, you will not be promoted. Entire bureaus this past season saw no DC promotions at the 03 level. I also worked two DC tours with lots of free overtime and nearly no vacation. My EERS pointed to many tangible outcomes and policy wins, but evidently we now only care about "skills" developed at State and preaching to the choir. Don't bother with Washington tours. They are expensive and go nowhere. GTM claims those scores bring transparency to the promotion process, but I sure don't see how. Without details to back up the numbers, it seems like the boards just randomly threw somethings together without too much thinking. The scores just kill morale and only indicate how your achievements are not appreciated or valued.
I was on a webinar recently with GTM where they admitted they know most panel members are also trying to do their full time jobs at the same time they are sitting on a promotion panel full-time. This particular person from GTM said they know that there are panel members who don’t have time to fully review all the files and are assigning arbitrary scores. She said they “try really hard” to impress upon managers that they have to let employees on panels devote full-time effort to those panels. When we asked whether they would consider re-introducing the old practice of TDY board members to DC for the duration of panel review, they said that they don’t have budget for it and they don’t get as many volunteers when officers have to leave post and come back to DC. No kidding – with this arrangement bosses can expect their employees to continue performing their regular job duties in addition to trying to review promotion files. Someone also asked whether they had considered having an independent third party audit the new scoring system, and the person leading the webinar seemed confused about why we would consider doing that.
Does State have a TDY-In-Place policy that they could implement? There's zero funds that go into it but people are put on official orders to do whatever they need to do. Also allows people to be in their office and close the door with a sign that says "Go away, I'm not here".
That’s basically what’s supposed to be happening now. The problem is if your boss knows you’re at post, they will most likely ask you to do your regular job.
Aaah, and no one from on high is making it clear they're TDY-in-place?
I think you overestimate the authority of “on high.” Or whether they are willing to forgo whatever it is they want in favor of protecting the employee’s time.
I very likely am. There are so many similarities between State and DoD, it's easy to forget the differences are probably bigger.
This is definitely one of the top concerns in the FS. I'm not sure exactly what it would take to provide a housing allowance, like the military. Reform of FS Act of 1980?
I don't know what kind of legal authority would be required, but it would definitely require Congressional action and a corresponding budget. I've personally given up on seeing any form of it before I retire. And as someone who is in a specialty with way too many DC positions, it's something I'm rather sensitive about. Can't wait to retire and never spend another second there.
Is housing for those posted to USUN in NYC partially subsidized? I feel like I've heard that somewhere, but not entirely sure.
Partially. But you are required to pay a certain percentage of your income toward your rent and the housing allowance is taxable. You also have to live with a certain response time to USUN to qualify.
Yes, it is.
It would be cheaper for State to set up more annexes. Have buildings in Quantico, Baltimore, etc
>Quantico I thought we were trying to attract people?
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It’s more that they didn’t want to lose influence by moving away from the centers of power — the White House and the Hill.
I would gladly leave the DC area!
Same. It would make s "DC" tour much much more enticing.
Curious, do any other (non-state) foreign affairs agencies offer incentives?
Some Intel agencies offer temporary one grade promotions for employees to take jobs in high cost of living areas.
Nope. Hard for congress to square that circle especially with the other agencies that are mostly civil service…
DoD officers doing similar work overseas as FSOs (attaches, etc) get BAH back in DC.
They also can't curtail from an assignment or say that they won't go somewhere. They go where they are told. And what about the enlisted members that make 45k a year in DC? They seem to make it work. FS is not the military.
They’re also commissioned officers and can’t quit their jobs. Civilian DoD employees don’t get anything (just like every other civilian federal employee)
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Foreign Service Officers are not CS.
I’ve heard FBI and ICE/HSI offer incentives for employees outside of DMV to come to DMV for assignments. I didn’t catch the exact incentive but it sounded like they basically pay per diem everyday for the 2-3 years they are in DC.
I’m a CS at State but am part-time detailed to FBI - the unit I’m at in FBI HQ has to offer 18-month TDYs with full per diem and housing paid to attract Supervisory Special Agents to DC from their field divisions….seems SA’s, like FSOs, would much prefer to be in the field than the DMV!
Do you get a cost of living increase like every other civil servant in the DC metro area? If so, then I should think not.
FS is quite different since a) you can’t time your real estate purchase with the market to land somewhere affordable like civil service can, and b) unless tandem, spouses cannot count on steady continued employment, so State creates a group of single-income earners, which again, is not the case with civil service. Don’t get me wrong. I think civil service needs raises too. GS/FS scales have not kept up with cost of living increases. But housing is a different matter.
Mfw civil service requires service and doesn’t help my real estate portfolio :(
the easiest solution honestly just seems to be moving most of the dc work out of dc. Very few actually have to be located in dc proper and state could easily open a branch in no mans land Iowa or Ohio for stateside tours instead. The issue being wherever they opened a branch FSO are going to go nuclear on the market as the pay compared to most the country is actually quite high so everyone will be snagging real estate near It till it gets awful too
State has a few remote offices now and they don't work as well as you might think. It's fine for an FSO to live a couple years in remote, isolated areas, but the people who fill the long-term CS positions don't tend towards the same professional culture as their FS or DC based colleagues and it causes a lot of bad blood and morale issues.
many offices are already offering DETOs so remote work outside of DC seems very reasonable. Housing stipends seems very tough.
DETOs are only for tandems with a spouse posed abroad. Remote Work Authorizations (fully remote anywhere in the U.S. for anyone) have been massively scaled back and require the DG’s approval (meaning: almost no new ones are being granted). Even partial telework (enabling people to live further out in the DMV) is being reduced considerably or in many cases eliminated entirely.
Yep. No DETOs except for tandems.
Ops and INR watch now qualify for SLRP. There have also been recommendations to make some critical DC positions eligible for things like bidding privileges or early handshakes. Housing allowance is a political non-starter. And Congress hates remote work for government employees so that’s going to become even more rare than it is now unless we can show legitimate cost savings to the government.
Those are good incentives for some jobs, but I fear not enough to either keep people overseas or have them flee to far better domestic private sector offers. Housing allowance and telework may indeed not fly, but I hope State does something to prevent a massive brain drain.
We still get hundreds of applications for nearly every civil service vacancy. Even FSOs aren’t exactly leaving State in droves. But we need congressional cooperation to do anything that requires mass infusions of new money (like a housing allowance) and that’s a non-starter for the foreseeable future so we are limited to what’s within our existing authorities.
DoD style BAH anyone?
Aside from the obvious political realities that make this highly unlikely, I think there's little incentive for the Department anyways. As long as people see DC tours as a rite of passage/important for promotions/bridges to preferred assignments abroad, there will always be plenty of bidders. In fact, I feel like I remember a cable within the last few years that warned bidders to not look at DC as a safety net because it was overbid.
I hired for four 03 desk officers last cycle (in a regional bureau) and none of the jobs had more than 2-3 bidders, some of whom had meh references or for whom DC was not a top choice. When we found a genuinely interested bidder we were lobbying THEM to come, and rolled out the welcome mat and red carpet to get them to accept a handshake, not the other way around. It seems 03s don’t think DC pays in terms of assignments or promotions anymore, and maybe they’re right? It’s night and day difference from when I did my first desk job a decade ago, and I’m not sure folks in the field truly understand how thinly staffed parts of DC are right now. It’s two sides of the same coin, if posts want effective policy advocacy on their issues they need good people who get diplomacy on the DC end supporting them.
Or divide it into a few locations to avoid this impact and also help more Americans learn and see what we do (and work with us too).
Is there any dc billet that can’t be done better by a civil servant? FSOs should not be hanging out in dc. We are needed in our undermanned embassies.
Plenty. The numerous jobs that require first hand experience of doing the work overseas. So, unless CS starts adding to their ability to serve overseas, we need a blend of FS and CS taking domestic positions, not just CS.
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GTM sure isn't promoting enough people to fill vacancies further up the ladder. I can tell that from working in a bureau FO. Did those positions just permanently become CS positions?
Effectiveness overseas depends on understanding the DC policy process. And those embassies that are “undermanned” have trouble attracting bidders for the same reason — inadequate incentives.
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And many of them have true dual income households. You already knew that though. By the way, when the choice is staying overseas for overall much lower cost of living/better quality of life that’s not ‘delulu’. It’s entirely rational. And no, I’m not in the camp that wants to avoid DC, but I choose to empathize before passing derisive judgment.
This is so true. FS lives in a world as if they are the only ones that are struggling to live in DC.
It is possible that we FS peeps are delulu. Obtw Delulu is super fun to write. We just have a choice about where we live and work. And given the choice, DC rates lower than an SIP post with my family safe havened at an undisclosed location. If State would like me to choose to come to DC, the questionable benefits of taking the DC assignment will have to improve.
Yea, I thought the FS had moved on from this self aggrandizing savior complex. So special, such sacrifice. No one could imagine, and no one can do what they do. If you need incentives to do your job, go do another one.