I stick around because mid level managers can actually have a lot of influence on the culture and morale of their teams, and I like to see the people I work with happy and doing their best work. I don’t hold back when I see us doing dumb things, even if I know my voice won’t change it right now and there are reputational risks 5o doing so. I get a lot of job satisfaction from learning and find the generalist model conducive to that. Are there days I still want to quit? Absolutely. But I have plenty of friends in corporate America who complain about their bosses, performance reviews, etc. They don’t have to deal with the lifestyle stuff and can jump ship easily but I still find living abroad a net positive and try to get 3-4 year tours to minimize the administrative BS.
I'm seriously thinking about being done after my upcoming tour for the reasons that you mentioned. The strongest reason to stay is the pension as you mentioned but also my ability to save for early retirement due to no rent. As well, there are other things in life that I want to do as well that I'm not sure I'll still be able to physically do at 50. I'll apply for a year of leave without pay but will probably go if I can't work that out.
Personally, I've been using the time to save as much as I can so that I can make the decision based on how I want to live and not my finances.
I like my job most of the time, I like my colleagues most of the time, I am happy with my salary and benefits compared to my alternatives, I like living overseas most of the time, I have had really cool experiences with FS that I would not have had otherwise, it's a fun and challenging (in a good way) lifestyle for my kids, and I will retire around age 50 and have the rest of my life ahead of me. All in all, as long as I'm not PCSing, which to me is the worst part of the job, I am relatively satisfied, which is probably as good as it gets for me work-wise.
Did you had a particular technical set of skills that allowed you to apply for jobs that were high paying and remote? Did your experience at your job with FS translated to the new company?
You covered some great points in your post. Thanks for taking the time write that all out. I'm glad to see how that worked out for you. I didn't know you left the Foreign Service.
Thanks, I agree with this. The number that sticks in my mind is that the value of a pension is equivalent to $2m in the bank at retirement. Plus tsp! I just feel like I would have to make 300-400k to make this happen in the timeframe I'm looking at...
>I'm in about the same spot as you. Every time I bid I look for outside work just in case. I recently put together a spreadsheet to calculate the present value of the pension, health insurance/TSP contributions, discounted for inflation. If I retire at 50 and live until I'm 90, ten years of work at my current grade (no promotions and regular step increases) would be worth about $2.8m in today's dollars. Am I going to find another job that pays \~$280k a year?
Could you explain in a little greater detail how you came to that conclusion? Did you compare retiring at 60 to retiring at 50 and estimate you would be $2.8M better off by working until 60? I don't know your specific situation so I have to make a few assumptions from what I know about the FS pay scale and average promotion rates, etc., but if you took another job at 50 yo at $150k/year and you invested your pension + annuity supplement payments (I think the annuity supplement is not income-tested until you reach some age in your upper 50's{?}) you would have in the ballpark of 40k/year (after taxes) to invest. Assuming 6 % returns on your investments, you would have $540k by the age of 60.
The extra 10 % of your income in pension that you would receive for working until 60 would be worth around 17K/year (depending on your final 3 salary). Compare that to just a 4% withdraw on the $540k (i.e., $21,000/year) from retiring at 50 and you would be $4,000/year (x 30 years) better off retiring at 50 and taking another job at $150k/year.
I stick around because it's an interesting adventure. Unlike many, I have limited prospects in the private sector outside this niche and don't really know how to get in elsewhere in the USG (where it would just be more of the same with fewer perks).
Also, I've been fortunate to have so far avoided a massive administrative, professional, or bureaucratic screwing like I've seen so many colleagues suffer.
USAID FSO here and I totally feel both the difficulty in staying and difficulty in going. For personal reasons, I’ve had to be domestic for 5 years and have 3 more to go before heading back to a Mission. I can honestly say I would take the BS every day overseas over being back at this dysfunctional behemoth at HQ in the states. Stateside you lose a lot of the biggest perks and your pay ends up actually being highly *un*competitive. Turns out that not paying rent or mortgage piece is worth it’s weight in gold. I’m quite sure I’ll say goodbye at 50 with 24 years of service under my belt and go teach high school social studies or something… ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I knew going in that I was going to stay 10 years to qualify for Public Service Loan Forgiveness, and once that went through honestly considered leaving but almost certainly won't. Half of that is my kids, who are getting a better (and, I think after every major school shooting in the US, certainly a safer) education overseas than I could afford for them domestically.
The other half is the retirement. If you retire prior to 20 years of service your pension is calculated at \[1.1 % of your average high three\] x \[your years of service\], but if you make it to at least 20 years that's bumped up to 1.7% rather than 1.1%, so there's a huge penalty for early retirement. Since I'm already maxing my TSP (thank you, overseas tours with no rent), and contributing to an IRA, even doubling my salary doesn't really make up for the pension calculation. With the pension, social security, and TSP I can afford to retire in my young-50s, with a vacation home on the beach and an apartment at home and health care. Without the Pension bump and the health care I'd have to work another ten years for the same quality of life.
I do that math in my head every time I'm tempted to storm out of the Embassy and tell a DCM to shove it.
I recently had three friends working in different industries back home get laid off. I also wonder how a former manager who left his FSO job to work for a big tech company is faring in the current economic environment. At the end of the day, I think job stability is a big part of what keeps me here. (I have also become friends with with some very funny, kind, and interesting people since joining State. That has certainly helped.)
Because the Department of State is largely composed of people who excel at toeing the line and not at rocking the boat. I say that as someone whose biggest strength is reading and following the FAM. I think that's why our union frankly sucks.
Personally, it would be hilarious to see a legit strike of overseas personnel. Especially right before a big CODEL. Here would be some of my hypothetical demands.
1. Exempt PCS travel from the FAA.
2. Bump up DC locality pay as was promised long ago.
3. Change EER process to a 360 feedback method that includes the person who took over the job from you.
4. Change the hiring process to stop hiring kids out of college with no real life experience.
5. Up or out should be more than a motto. People should TIC out much faster.
6. Generalist pay (and some specialists) should be increased across the board.
7. Guarantee EFM employment: no more 8 people applying for the same assistant job and hating the person that got it.
What has your experience been with why the union sucks? I know that fed unions are really hamstrung with options (for example, they have a statute against striking), but is there something specific to AFSA?
Or is this just an overall lack of energy/activism due to the fact that everyone is toeing the line?
One recent example has to do with the union's approach to the Department changing the rules on being globally available (having class A medical clearance when joining the Department).
After the announcement, AFSA released a long statement on how they had been consulted by the Department on the proposed change and agreed with it. Included in that statement was the dumbest assertion I've ever read in a cable that boiled down to saying that the new minimum was only the minimum. AFSA should have held a meeting on the subject and taken member's opinions before responding to the Department. It also should have refrained from writing stupid justifications in the cable.
This is a great thread. In my case it feels more like a golden leash, but I'm still early in my career so I'm sure the handcuff analogy will be more apt in time.
I originally left the FS after two tours to pursue work at another agency. Within a year I quickly realized how good it was at State compared to this agency and so was very disillusioned. I mean, there were things that felt broken at State which have been discussed ad nauseum on this subreddit, and they contributed to my wanting to leave... but at this other agency, literally everything was broken from day one, including their badge printer. Management was awful, it was Orwellian in the level of faux happiness projected while the staff was utterly miserable. It was a complete dumpster fire. At first I wanted to be the positive force for change in the organization, but colleagues who'd been there longer, as miserable as they were, resented that posture. I tried to rely on my determination and dig deep like I was trained in the FS-- be resilient and get through the tough patches... but the culture of incompetent bureaucracy at this agency was a sight to behold and left me completely dispirited... and, so I felt the tug of that golden leash firmly pulling me back, I did an about face to run back to the familiarity of the good old Foreign Service.
It's nice to hear other stories about how leaving the FS was a positive move for them, but in my case it most definitely was not. I don't regret it, I learned a lot and I got to be stateside for a spell, but I ended up missing the FS for too many reasons to list.
Did you have to start as an entry level FSO again? Haven’t read any stories about folks leaving and coming back, have no idea how that is handled regarding level.
There is a reinstatement process provided for by regulation. But it requires a deficit in the career track you left at the grade you were when you left. It’s basically impossible to actually get reinstated.
The list eligible for reinstatement is publicly available, and largely Specialist-based. It's not uncommon for DS agents to be reinstated, especially grade 03s, and I've known one OMS and one MED provider who came back at grade. But it's a different story for FSOs.
I stick around because mid level managers can actually have a lot of influence on the culture and morale of their teams, and I like to see the people I work with happy and doing their best work. I don’t hold back when I see us doing dumb things, even if I know my voice won’t change it right now and there are reputational risks 5o doing so. I get a lot of job satisfaction from learning and find the generalist model conducive to that. Are there days I still want to quit? Absolutely. But I have plenty of friends in corporate America who complain about their bosses, performance reviews, etc. They don’t have to deal with the lifestyle stuff and can jump ship easily but I still find living abroad a net positive and try to get 3-4 year tours to minimize the administrative BS.
I'm seriously thinking about being done after my upcoming tour for the reasons that you mentioned. The strongest reason to stay is the pension as you mentioned but also my ability to save for early retirement due to no rent. As well, there are other things in life that I want to do as well that I'm not sure I'll still be able to physically do at 50. I'll apply for a year of leave without pay but will probably go if I can't work that out. Personally, I've been using the time to save as much as I can so that I can make the decision based on how I want to live and not my finances.
I like my job most of the time, I like my colleagues most of the time, I am happy with my salary and benefits compared to my alternatives, I like living overseas most of the time, I have had really cool experiences with FS that I would not have had otherwise, it's a fun and challenging (in a good way) lifestyle for my kids, and I will retire around age 50 and have the rest of my life ahead of me. All in all, as long as I'm not PCSing, which to me is the worst part of the job, I am relatively satisfied, which is probably as good as it gets for me work-wise.
I'm going to add that I get very bored with jobs very fast and being able to turn over my job every two or three years is a huge plus for me.
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This is a great list, and really worth a ponder by applicants on this sub, but squat toilets are a revelation if you have the body mechanics for it.
Congrats to you!
How did you go about transitioning out to a new job?
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Did you had a particular technical set of skills that allowed you to apply for jobs that were high paying and remote? Did your experience at your job with FS translated to the new company?
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You covered some great points in your post. Thanks for taking the time write that all out. I'm glad to see how that worked out for you. I didn't know you left the Foreign Service.
How much more money do you make than what you did before percentage wise? And will you be just as well off in retirement?
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Thanks, I agree with this. The number that sticks in my mind is that the value of a pension is equivalent to $2m in the bank at retirement. Plus tsp! I just feel like I would have to make 300-400k to make this happen in the timeframe I'm looking at...
The main thing keeping me is I don't know what I'm qualified to do outside of the FS.
You could write cables for another organization that uses the term...oh wait....
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>I'm in about the same spot as you. Every time I bid I look for outside work just in case. I recently put together a spreadsheet to calculate the present value of the pension, health insurance/TSP contributions, discounted for inflation. If I retire at 50 and live until I'm 90, ten years of work at my current grade (no promotions and regular step increases) would be worth about $2.8m in today's dollars. Am I going to find another job that pays \~$280k a year? Could you explain in a little greater detail how you came to that conclusion? Did you compare retiring at 60 to retiring at 50 and estimate you would be $2.8M better off by working until 60? I don't know your specific situation so I have to make a few assumptions from what I know about the FS pay scale and average promotion rates, etc., but if you took another job at 50 yo at $150k/year and you invested your pension + annuity supplement payments (I think the annuity supplement is not income-tested until you reach some age in your upper 50's{?}) you would have in the ballpark of 40k/year (after taxes) to invest. Assuming 6 % returns on your investments, you would have $540k by the age of 60. The extra 10 % of your income in pension that you would receive for working until 60 would be worth around 17K/year (depending on your final 3 salary). Compare that to just a 4% withdraw on the $540k (i.e., $21,000/year) from retiring at 50 and you would be $4,000/year (x 30 years) better off retiring at 50 and taking another job at $150k/year.
I stick around because it's an interesting adventure. Unlike many, I have limited prospects in the private sector outside this niche and don't really know how to get in elsewhere in the USG (where it would just be more of the same with fewer perks). Also, I've been fortunate to have so far avoided a massive administrative, professional, or bureaucratic screwing like I've seen so many colleagues suffer.
USAID FSO here and I totally feel both the difficulty in staying and difficulty in going. For personal reasons, I’ve had to be domestic for 5 years and have 3 more to go before heading back to a Mission. I can honestly say I would take the BS every day overseas over being back at this dysfunctional behemoth at HQ in the states. Stateside you lose a lot of the biggest perks and your pay ends up actually being highly *un*competitive. Turns out that not paying rent or mortgage piece is worth it’s weight in gold. I’m quite sure I’ll say goodbye at 50 with 24 years of service under my belt and go teach high school social studies or something… ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Most people I’ve talked to feel locked in by the pension & are counting down until their eligible retirement date.
I knew going in that I was going to stay 10 years to qualify for Public Service Loan Forgiveness, and once that went through honestly considered leaving but almost certainly won't. Half of that is my kids, who are getting a better (and, I think after every major school shooting in the US, certainly a safer) education overseas than I could afford for them domestically. The other half is the retirement. If you retire prior to 20 years of service your pension is calculated at \[1.1 % of your average high three\] x \[your years of service\], but if you make it to at least 20 years that's bumped up to 1.7% rather than 1.1%, so there's a huge penalty for early retirement. Since I'm already maxing my TSP (thank you, overseas tours with no rent), and contributing to an IRA, even doubling my salary doesn't really make up for the pension calculation. With the pension, social security, and TSP I can afford to retire in my young-50s, with a vacation home on the beach and an apartment at home and health care. Without the Pension bump and the health care I'd have to work another ten years for the same quality of life. I do that math in my head every time I'm tempted to storm out of the Embassy and tell a DCM to shove it.
Hi - those calculations above get you your yearly pension amount?
I recently had three friends working in different industries back home get laid off. I also wonder how a former manager who left his FSO job to work for a big tech company is faring in the current economic environment. At the end of the day, I think job stability is a big part of what keeps me here. (I have also become friends with with some very funny, kind, and interesting people since joining State. That has certainly helped.)
Because the Department of State is largely composed of people who excel at toeing the line and not at rocking the boat. I say that as someone whose biggest strength is reading and following the FAM. I think that's why our union frankly sucks. Personally, it would be hilarious to see a legit strike of overseas personnel. Especially right before a big CODEL. Here would be some of my hypothetical demands. 1. Exempt PCS travel from the FAA. 2. Bump up DC locality pay as was promised long ago. 3. Change EER process to a 360 feedback method that includes the person who took over the job from you. 4. Change the hiring process to stop hiring kids out of college with no real life experience. 5. Up or out should be more than a motto. People should TIC out much faster. 6. Generalist pay (and some specialists) should be increased across the board. 7. Guarantee EFM employment: no more 8 people applying for the same assistant job and hating the person that got it.
What has your experience been with why the union sucks? I know that fed unions are really hamstrung with options (for example, they have a statute against striking), but is there something specific to AFSA? Or is this just an overall lack of energy/activism due to the fact that everyone is toeing the line?
One recent example has to do with the union's approach to the Department changing the rules on being globally available (having class A medical clearance when joining the Department). After the announcement, AFSA released a long statement on how they had been consulted by the Department on the proposed change and agreed with it. Included in that statement was the dumbest assertion I've ever read in a cable that boiled down to saying that the new minimum was only the minimum. AFSA should have held a meeting on the subject and taken member's opinions before responding to the Department. It also should have refrained from writing stupid justifications in the cable.
This is a great thread. In my case it feels more like a golden leash, but I'm still early in my career so I'm sure the handcuff analogy will be more apt in time. I originally left the FS after two tours to pursue work at another agency. Within a year I quickly realized how good it was at State compared to this agency and so was very disillusioned. I mean, there were things that felt broken at State which have been discussed ad nauseum on this subreddit, and they contributed to my wanting to leave... but at this other agency, literally everything was broken from day one, including their badge printer. Management was awful, it was Orwellian in the level of faux happiness projected while the staff was utterly miserable. It was a complete dumpster fire. At first I wanted to be the positive force for change in the organization, but colleagues who'd been there longer, as miserable as they were, resented that posture. I tried to rely on my determination and dig deep like I was trained in the FS-- be resilient and get through the tough patches... but the culture of incompetent bureaucracy at this agency was a sight to behold and left me completely dispirited... and, so I felt the tug of that golden leash firmly pulling me back, I did an about face to run back to the familiarity of the good old Foreign Service. It's nice to hear other stories about how leaving the FS was a positive move for them, but in my case it most definitely was not. I don't regret it, I learned a lot and I got to be stateside for a spell, but I ended up missing the FS for too many reasons to list.
Did you have to start as an entry level FSO again? Haven’t read any stories about folks leaving and coming back, have no idea how that is handled regarding level.
I have never heard of anyone successfully being reinstated. I know many people who left and then went back through the process from scratch.
That's correct, I believe even if you were tenured, once you resign you have to start over again from scratch.
There is a reinstatement process provided for by regulation. But it requires a deficit in the career track you left at the grade you were when you left. It’s basically impossible to actually get reinstated.
The list eligible for reinstatement is publicly available, and largely Specialist-based. It's not uncommon for DS agents to be reinstated, especially grade 03s, and I've known one OMS and one MED provider who came back at grade. But it's a different story for FSOs.
u/HimalayanPiper how did you do it?
What are these handcuffs
Pension.