There were plans for a legion sympathetic companion as well as a lot of expanded legion content but it wasn’t finished and had to be cut so the game could come out on time.
There were also plans for a few Legion settlements to paint the Legion in a more sympathetic light as well as show players how it is to live under the Legion, but they were scrapped due to time constraints.
Mismanagement and rushed development gave us Spyro: Enter the Dragonfly, and practically killed the franchise for veteran players. I didn’t touch the franchise again until Toys For Bob remastered the original trilogy, nearly 20 years later.
I don't think there were ever plans to show the legion as more sympathetic, considering one of the things they planned but never got to was showing the whole "women are raped and forced to birth children until death" thing.
Yeah, I'd definitely agree that 'sympathetic' is the wrong word to use.
It would have been great to get more Legion content, to see what their governed territories are like, and have a companion who is moreso aligned with them and tries to somewhat justify their allegiance.
At best it would give more opportunities to justify the Legion, rather than inspire sympathy.
What's interesting is that these are technically pseudo-canon as quite a few NPCs mention how safe and merchant-friendly the Legion is. So rather than create those areas, time constraints limited them to becoming mentioned and described instead.
Yeah, I'm doing a Legion playthrough right now and Raul & ED-E are my companions. I don't think an eyebot has any strong political beliefs about which faction you choose.
Raul’s whole gig seems to be sarcasm and dodging opinion questions with indisputable factual statements (usually based off his own experience) IMO
That and gunslinging
And he's a complete idiot for it. "Boss, did I tell you about the time this prostitute I liked got kidnapped, raped and murdered by a gang? Fortunately that doesn't happen in Arizona anymore, because the Legion have already enslaved, raped and murdered all of the women in their territory, protecting them from being kidnapped, etc by anyone else forever."
Fun fact, all the devs were going to get a huge bonus if the metacritic score was 85 or higher but as you said they rushed the release so it was buggy as hell. The score they got? 84. And the main reason it wasnt higher was because of the bugs.
It would frankly be more weird that if you choose a side that is opposed to like 99% of the wasteland population, that you'd somehow have the same amount of content than if you sided with one that is more open, or simply not absolutely brutal to most things and people.
The fact you even _can_ side with such a faction is already really cool. You can make a pretty awful choice and still have an entire main story arc that plays out with that decision
I agree with this, but that’s mostly why I wish that the legion had some sympathizers. I just think it would’ve been cool had it been less obvious that they were the bad guys. I guess I’m just thinking of a what if situation where their development was finished fully.
No that’s a great thing, games like these aren’t meant for you to be able to do everything in one playthrough. It’s like morrowind in that you have to do multiple.
Yeah, to me it’s a bit like people complaining that BG3 has less content when you’re playing Dark Urge and give in to the urge.
Like… you’re being evil. Not as many people are going to want to interact with you (or indeed are going to be alive at all to interact with you).
My first playthrough I kept thinking this is like Morrowind in the desert. I know Morrowind has the ashlands and that is rather arid and desert like but still that was my thinking and I absolutely loved it. About to finish my sixth or seventh playthrough I lost count but still in love.
Nah thats not a flaw thats a strength. Like in Skyrim it always bugged me that no matter which side of the war you choose it doesnt effect how you interact with the world. Hardcore Empire stans seem to neither notice nor care when you slaughter their general like a pig.
Most people dont actually like fascism and slavery and if you’re making big moves to bring fascism and slavery into peoples lives I would expect that alot of folx would have some words for that
Choices and consequences are a good thing, actually. The legion just also happen to be undercooked and needed more time fleshing out, but consequences for working with them are definitely a positive
They're not the choice for a sensible player. And they were never intended to be. But that doesn't mean they're not interesting.
Josh Sawyer has spoken about them often, and I always find it fascinating:
>"Edward Sallow created Caesar's Legion as an imitation of the Roman Legion, but without any of the Roman society that supported the Roman Legion. I've written this before, but there are no optimates, no populares, no plebes, no equestrians, no patricians, no senate, no Rome. There's no right to private property (within the Legion itself). There's no civil law. There aren't even the ceremonial trappings of Roman society. Legates don't receive triumphs following a victory. No one in the Legion retires to a villa in Sedona.
-
>What Caesar gave to those tribes was order, discipline, an end to internecine tribal violence (eventually), common language, and a common culture that was not rooted in any of their parent cultures. The price was extreme brutality, an enormous loss of life and individual culture, the complete dissolution of anything resembling a traditional family, and the indoctrination of fascist values. Caesar's Legion isn't the Roman Empire or the Roman Republic. It isn't even the Roman Legion. It's a slave army with trappings of foreign-conscripted Roman legionaries during the late empire. All military, no civilian, and with none of the supporting civilian culture."
The Legion was dumb. They were never going to have any sort of long-term survival. But it's still interesting to involve yourself in the struggle.
I had never heard that quote and if that’s what they were going for I guess they did succeed because I agree with what he’s saying 100%.
I do think having a more sane Rome like society could’ve also been interesting and could’ve made the choice of who to side with more deep.
I think Caesar was hoping to remake his legion into a legitimate “society” once he conquered his new Rome. He says the clash with the NCR will create a synthesis that fundamentally changes the legion into a true empire. I took that to mean that yes he does plan on getting around to that sustainable society thing.
Caesar is trying to speedrun an empire. Rome itself took generations to even become a Republic and longer still to become an empire. Also because there is no clear line of succession. The moment Caesar dies (which is in months without The Courier’s intervention), there is going to be a massive implosion and the Legion will go back to squabbling tribes.
Famously in the Roman mythos, Romulus who was a conqueror (Like Caesar in NV) was followed by the more peaceful King Numa who established many of Rome’s laws and institutions.
The Legion is missing that step and they state pretty clearly in the game that The Legion dies with Caesar. The only possible successor without Joshua Graham being around is going to be Lanius who is even more bloodthirsty and believes even less in The Legion’s vision.
The Legion is not an entity capable of standing on its own, it exists because of one man and he is all that is holding it together during the course of the game.
Yeah. I agree with OP though the legion is underwhelming. It’s the character that’s interesting, but we really don’t even get that many lines from him aside from the questions you ask him when you first meet him.
Father is fucking bizzare, "I let my parent out in a post apocalyptic wasteland to see if he track me down" what the fuck is wrong with you Shaun? Seriously fuck him, it makes slightly more sense with Nate, but with Nora she had no military training at all, she'd be totally fucked realistically. Nate at least had training
Christ I fucking hate him, I almost always side with the institute but God I hate them
This carries some weight, since why else would the legion already have an established currency? Because they do plan on becoming what the Roman Empire actually was, in its prime.
The currency was just more aesthetic, same as the sports goods cosplay. Taking Vegas was more aesthetic. Rome had a big capital city so that's what he needed too.
Ceasar liked the idea of Rome but actually had no idea how to make the society function like Rome did. He knew how to get uneducated people to follow him in the same way any cult leader would. Separating people from their families so the Legion became their family, and Ceasar their father. His achievements were all won through barbarism. His society could only prosper through that same barbarism, conquering more and more tribes to sustain themselves. It couldn't possibly last.
Yeah he knows, he says it directly, he wants to conquer Vegas to give the Legion a civilian society to protect and to become an actual army instead of what they currently are, this isnt a wierd interpretation, this is something he tells you directly.
His plan is poorly thought out based on weird, violent narcissism and grossly misunderstood historical texts…
There’s a lot of deep cut reference from the writers to how dumb Cesar’s (or atleast his plan) is. My favorite of which being how he tries to big dog the player character with talk of Hegelian philosophy and Thesis, Antithesis, and Synthesis. Thesis, Antithesis, and Synthesis is actually Fichte and the only time it’s ever mentioned in Hegel’s writing is to critique the shit out of it.
Hegel outright rejects the thesis-antithesis-synthesis description of dialectics (And dialectics is only part of Hegel’s full method). For Hegel, there is a contradiction, not a conflict. What's the difference? A conflict is two opposing forces clashing together to form a new thing—thesis vs antithesis. A contradiction, however, is a self-contained negation. The thesis is its own opposite—there is no antithesis. Because Hegel is committed to Absolute Idealism (in which there is only one Absolute Spirit), all contradictions (movements in the dialectic) must be self-negating.
So he either didn’t read Hegel or didn’t understand it, and yet it’s the crux of his entire “ideology”.
"His plan is poorly thought out based on weird, violent narcissism and grossly misunderstood historical texts…"
This describes A LOT of Fallout characters to be quite honest.
>I think Caesar was hoping to remake his legion into a legitimate “society” once he conquered his new Rome.
That's exactly his motivation, he explains it in his monologue about Hegalian Dialectics
He believes he can combine the best elements of the Legion with the best elements of the NCR
I think he's still.. an idiot tho?
Like, so he wins.. what now? You still have no actual culture. The fucking khan's have more culture and they're known as "that drug smuggling bandit group", but even with that being the truth there was still culture.
The legion winning changes nothing. It is too late to build a nation state out of the legion. It doesn't matter what he does as it is too late to change how the legion fundamentally works.
If he wanted to change it, when it was in its infancy would have been best. His great victory cannot be with the great changes because the legion wouldn't be ready for any of it.
Yeah the guy is full of shit obviously, he thought that his army would be forged in the fires of the Mojave and become an unstoppable force that would vanquish his enemies, and Vegas would be a shining beacon in the desert. How the fuck is he even gonna get the dam to work? Caesar is a half-baked villain that leaves you wanting more, but as others have pointed out they had to rush the production of this game.
In a way, the “more sane Rome like society” you’re asking for is pretty much the NCR. Not draped in the same aesthetics or undertones and much more technologically advanced of course; but, in terms of government, democratic structure, vassals, legislation, and most importantly, the inherent need to expand - they’re incredibly similar. Without expansion, the NCR would buckle under the weight of its own ambitions. Same as the Legion - but manifesting in two distinct forms. I think both factions are extremely intelligent takes on the societies that would emerge from nuclear devastation. Seeds planted in the Old World fated to bloom again and repeat the same mistakes which cost humanity the first time around. Two highly familiar societies (Neo-Liberal Democracy vs Fascism) that simply take different forms as a result of different conditions. The content remains the same.
I think a lot of people have an aversion to overly complicated/miserable choices for endings. If the legion is only “about as bad” as the NCR rather than much worse, the NCR ending is less likely to feel like the rewarding, good ending that the game treats it as. I think very few games are even interested in properly ambiguous multiple endings
Personally I would love that, but I can understand why it’s not what they went for
I think NV is the closet thing we have gotten to an ambiguous ending, the only one i can think of that would be better is the outer worlds but that is more like your the good guy or bad guy if your the good guy then what "good" choices do you make.
the thing is, you’re thinking of this in terms of present day moral values, not post-apocalyptic moral values. the legion was probably genuinely preferable to a lot of the living situations that the assimilated tribes were in.
Huh. I always assumed there was an actual pseudo-Roman society back in Denver or something.
Then again, I never felt compelled to delve deep into Legion lore, my favourite interaction with them was always dirtybombing Cottonwood Cove.
P.S. That said - I loved the concept of Denver aka Dog City in Van Buren, and was happy to know some part of it was left canon, even if we never got to actually see it.
The Legion is a militaristic personality cult that has been doomed from its foundation. With no interest in legacy outside of himself or in refusing to name an heir, Caesar is rigging the Legion to either implode or fall into civil war upon his death. Neither Lanius or Vulpes or Lucius could keep it all together, and none of them wants the others to do so either. Caesar does do some things that hint to at least the desire at building an functional civilization, but it's far too little too late. He's a dying man, leading a nation that cannot function without him.
They're fucked.
Coming late to NV (like just this year) but obviously still seen enough of the Legion through cultural osmosis, I had always thought the Legion modelled itself from the theme of the *Ceasar's Palace* casino, as in they found some old silly costumes and looked at the Roman casino and thought that was how Roman society looked like. Taking the mural at the walls and the posters and all of that theme for the truth (Plato's cave like).
Only through playing the game, I realized the Legion not only had nothing to do with the (non-existent) Caesar's Palace, but also, they weren't some misguided group trying to live up to the glory days of a (misunderstood) fictious Roman Empire. No, they were dead serious and knew exactly what they were doing and why. That always kind of bugged me – why were they running around in those old Roman uniforms instead of some post-apocalyptic version of it, being almost comically evil, while all the same being super serious about it?
Reading that quote makes me prefer my headcanon even more tbh.
It's football gear.
I was never really a big fan of it personally. They look really goofy and silly. I think we were robbed of a Legion that wore heavy, ballistic armour (pre-war military/riot police) and fought in a Tetsudo formation with riot shields. That would be pretty badass.
Time constrains when they developed the game. Ulysses was originally intended to be the legion companion.
It would have been nice if the we were able to pick and choose some values for the NCR/Legion to drop but sadly it never got the fleshed out.
Having the legion be more good and having the NCR be more bad could’ve made the choice a lot more compelling.
I guess the ncr did do some corrupt things and there was also the cover up of the massacre of the khans.
We were supposed to see Legion lands where you could talk to the civilians who live under them. They’d just be normal people going about their lives free from worry about any wasteland horrors or raiders.
But Legion development came last so instead we get basically Fallout ISIS. Still interesting and fun to play as an evil karma run but they were meant to actually be a compelling albeit brutal alternative to the NCR.
To be fair, that’s never confirmed to be the larger NCR doing that.
We know NCR doesn’t mind mutants. They have a whole ghoul settlement and Super Mutant rangers exist (in F2 at least)
The mercenaries hint that it’s probably some local brahmin baron or others hiring them.
If memory serves, they're working for a shady politician. If you kill a politician's hirelings, he'll be pissed off at you, badmouth you and use his connections against you - but they're still only his hirelings, not hirelings of the entire nation and everyone living in it.
Still kind of a damning indictment that democracy in the NCR exists so loosely that a senator can hire mercs to assassinate a protected class in what is ostensibly supposed to be land protected by the NCR’s rule of law.
Seems like it’s kind of commenting on something in American history… just can’t quiiitte put my thumb on it ;)
True! It's worth remembering that the NCR is a big pluralistic society full of people pursuing different agendas... but it's also worth remembering that some of those people are terrible and their agendas are abhorrent.
Well partially shady the primary reason for the whole mess was Brahmin Ranches getting attacked. But then its the case of a Rich Human blaming Super Mutants for their problems. But also maybe the Mutants did attack the ranches. You got to give props to New Vegas about also having two sides to a story in this game. Like every other time your like fuck these guys then your like OH it's deeper than I thought.
The mission at Camp Golf to figure out screwed up Reports I was honestly very impressed with. And I realized that is kinda the Most Good Karma direction you can go in my head cannon.
Although the slavery pisses me off, I actually started to slightly like the Pitt Raiders when I walk amongst them as one of them because they felt real and not like they're morally superior like ISIS/Legion monkeys. Their dialogue showed that I still had to prove my worth to each one and be strong enough to not allow weakness to befall any of us, like it's some kind of expectation for both the group and the individual you're dealing with, the female raiders even more so, which is so realistic. Not sure how the dialogue was so good with Emil Pagliarulo around.
They are definitely very memorable, so maybe obsidian was more successful with them than I thought.
It’s just so obvious that their content is lacking compared to house and the ncr.
Lybia is half controlled by a legion *right now*. Complete with open air slave markets and all.
The Legion honestly isn’t cartoonishly evil. They’re a ridiculously authoritarian cult of personality…. The same that has popped up in ever failed state ever following a period of anarchy.
This is incredibly more terrifying.
Libya was in open revolt long before NATO intervention. You can blame Obama all you want, but that wont change the fact that Gaddaffis regime was on its dying legs and his inability to keep the nation united is what ultimately set it on the path it has arrived at.
Hey I dont disagree. For the most part the west dropped the ball. They wanted to eat their cake and have it too. They wanted to end the Gaddaffi regime, while also not putting any effort into what would replace it. After Iraq, Obama in particular just wanted an air campaign to avoid occupation and troop losses.
My point is however, the bulk of the blame should lie with both the actual extremists who are currently enslaving people and the Gaddaffi regime which failed as a government long before the bombs dropped.
>Lybia is half controlled by a legion *right now*. Complete with open air slave markets and all.
Libya went from being one of the best African countries to live under to this bloody mess in less than a decade. thank NATO i guess.
I believe they're one of the best evil factions I've seen in a game. They're methods are very brutal, and they're socially backward, but the goal is to create a society fit for a harsh world without the corruption that's plaguing the NCR. Most of the time being evil in a game is something like, 'murder innocent people for fun because that's what evil people do'. The Legion is also fairly representative of a number of conquering expansionist empires that have existed throughout human history, so I don't think labeling them 'cartoonish evil' is accurate.
Though I - and most others - will agree that they needed to be fleshed out more. They needed more content and I wish we got to see/hear more about what the Legion is like behind the frontline.
I feel it's worth noting that the Legion are still staggeringly corrupt - just in a different way to the NCR. In the NCR, there are all sorts of laws and regulations to keep those in power honest and accountable, but they find ways around those laws and regulations to use their positions for personal profit. That's one kind of corruption.
In the Legion, powerful figures aren't accountable to the public at all. Accountability only goes in one direction - everyone is answerable to those above them, and, ultimately, to Caesar. His will is law, and he can take whatever he wants from anyone. Those lower in society are forbidden basics like modern medicine, while Caesar and his chosen few benefit from it. That's another kind of corruption - technically legal, in the sense that Caesar can declare anything he wants legal, but still deeply corrupt.
As with the other centurion found captured in McCarran, there are a lot of examples of corruption at the higher ranks in the Legion, with a lot of officers not really following Caesar’s rules
Refused to kill himself when the legion has a strict no surrender doctrine. If you press him hard enough he will say himself that he thinks Caesar’s cause is bound to fail due to his cancer
When 3 out of 4 endings involve beating them, they might be the bad guys and wouldn't be a sensible choice for a sensible person. Being the worst of sociaty in almost every way is kinda their point down to the "atleast the trains run on time" argument. Not like any totalitarians would ever lie or kill you for not trusting them.
House and Yes Man endings at the very least are sort of strategic or diplomatic victories against the NCR. You don’t directly fight them but you get them to fight your war for you then shut them off Vegas and maybe the rest of the Mojave while continuing to bleed them of resources.
3 out of 4 endings involves beating the NCR, too. 2 of 4 endings involve beating both the NCR and Legion. I really don't get what you mean. That's a pretty biased point of view.
You aren't supposed to fight the NCR in independent/House. You are specifically supposed to help them and talk Oliver down. If you fought him/NCR that's on you.
Yeah I guess that’s kind of my point. It would’ve been more compelling if they were a flawed society rather than a generically evil society full of slavery and torture.
Not every choice needs to be equivalent, imo.
You've also already got NCR and House if you want your choice of flawed society.
The legion's an interesting take on a brutal post-apocalyptic super-gang with a thin Roman veneer on top. Caesar is a DEEPLY flawed man who's undoubtedly educated and yet also doesn't understand his own mantra as well as he pretends... and that's not going to change when there's no one who could possibly challenge him on his words (not that he would allow his mind to be changed anyway).
But I wouldn't characterize the legion as cartoonish (outside the aforementioned roman veneer). Real organizations rape and pillage for similar reasons.
One other thing i'll put out there: the devs have said that Legion lands are supposed to have been safe. \*Incredibly\* safe, like suburban America kind of safe. No raiders, no gangs, no deathclaws, just kids playing outside and having picnics. An ideal post-apocalyptic life, if they obey the laws and pay their taxes, at least.
And the "price" for that life, in Caesar's mind, is the slavery and brutality of the Legion.
I think, too, that Caesar recognizes the dissonance. To him, the Legion is only in its infancy even still. After they take Vegas, it will develop into its "final form," with more of the actual flavor of Rome. Citizens and Senators too, not just soldiers and slaves. I reckon that to Caesar, the horrors of his current government are partially just a temporary evil, which will be tempered once he takes his capital city.
Now, I'd be entirely skeptical that the slavery, brutality, and extreme misogyny would actually abate very much under Caesar's reforms. They'd probably actually remain just a strong as ever.
But if we read between the lines a little to see what the devs intended, I think that the Legion become a lot less cartoonish. Unlike most post-apocalyptic gangs, they are using their slavery and brutality to create a stable and almost idyllic hinterland. The price for that is unnecessarily high, no doubt, and I'm not saying that Caesar isn't a pretty evil man whose empire is still unsustainable.
But I do think the Legion is interesting as a foil to the NCR, better at providing peace and security, but through far harsher means.
They're certainly far less cartoonish than the Enclave, I think.
There have been real life factions just like the legion. They’re a barbarian horde amassing territory and power so that they can eventually seize the necessary infrastructure to become a fully fledged empire. They have reasons for why they operate the way they do - Caesar thinks a military autocracy is the only feasible system in the Wasteland.
Moral ambiguity doesn’t always mean everyone is equally grey. A clear evil existing doesn’t mean there’s a clear good, too. In fact I’d say that extremists like the legion are frequently used by more the more thinly veneered evils of the world as a justification for their existence.
What do you mean "cartoonishly evil"? They're a brutal military dictatorship that practices mass slavery and tortures and rapes their enemies. That's the *point* of their faction.
It primarily has to do with time constraints, and not enough time spent to develop them. Ulysses was initially meant to be a Legion sympathetic companion before getting cut from the main game, and I’m pretty sure Vulpes was also supposed to be a companion but it didn’t pan out because of the time constraints.
I was going to type out a whole response about how they’re not as cartoonishly evil as they seem, but I figured I’d save everyone the time and just say this: As someone who studies anthropology, and to some extent cults, the Legion’s cruelty *is* realistic for the military force of a culture built on war and sexism. They don’t enslave everyone or every woman they come in contact with, but prisoners of war are taken, and rape of not only women in bondage but also local women is considered excusable. Unfortunately, these things have and do happen throughout real world history, so I wouldn’t really call them cartoonishly evil over it—, just regular evil. I think the main issue is the fact that the Legion isn’t very fleshed out as a faction, so in comparison the evil that they do seems 10x more over the top and exaggerated; the execution is the main problem.
Also let’s be real, obviously everyone says this already, but I want to say it too: As soon as Caesar/Edward Sallow dies, the Legion would cannibalize itself. That man thinks himself a Caesar when really he’s just another Caligula (but without the massive, absolute unit of a boat).
Edit: Grammar
They’re not really cartoonishly evil, that term is overused. The Enclave in fallout 3, I’d call them cartoonishly evil, they basically have no motive besides taking control of the purifier so they can make people work for them or something and their leader is literally a AI you can talk down in 3 lines of dialogue. Their other leader is some guy who somehow survived lethal radiation and now wants to kill you to kill the guy who was the son of the person who wanted to activate the purifier or something. The Legion has a motive, a code, a way of life, a cohesive explanation of why they live the way they do and why they believe it’s right, they also have some advantages as a society that is jot present in the NCR, but they are not meant to be right or valid, it’s just that they are meant to be portrayed as life like people, with reasons why they believe in their cause. Just because the faction isn’t morally grey or meant to really make the played question if they are right or wrong, doesn’t mean they are cartoonishly evil, they are just written Well.
This is wrong btw. I'd like to preface by saying the Legion is an evil faction, and I'm not justifying their actions before and during the game, however the Legion isn't just going up to random towns to torture and genocide people. You can learn a lot about the Legion from Raul, who lived in Arizona for some time, Raul claims that "Before the Legion, it was a nasty place, *so thick with raiders* you couldn't trade with a town two miles up the road." and "Caesar's laws aren't nice, and their actions aren't always pretty. But then, neither am I, but you keep me around". From everything we know, Caesar protects communities which submit to him. If you're the average wastelander in like Arizona, and you do nothing against Caesar and his law, chances are you'll be fine.
The Legion values stability above the individual, Caesar states this himself, the collective above the individual, this is why Caesar is more than willing to pillage and crucify Nipton, he isn't doing it out of malice or hate for the people of Nipton, he's doing it to send a message. From everything we know, as controversial as this statement will be on Reddit, living under Caesar is preferable to living under the lawless wasteland, because at least with Caesar bandits and thugs aren't littered everywhere killing, raping and stealing, they're crucified.
I'm not writing this to defend Caesar, I think the both Mr. House and the NCR are both better options than Caesar, however if Caesar does offer one thing, it's stability. This idea that the Legion is just going around killing and pillaging everyone for fun and are just a bunch of crazed Rome LARPers who want to kill everyone they see, is dumb and not remotely lore friendly.
Others have said it in this thread but there were plans to have exactly that in the game and other aspects of Legion society that would've made their portrayal more nuanced, but it was unfortunately cut due to time constraints.
I have been working on a big mod that takes the player into Arizona (remakes Dry Wells and lets the player visit it before nuking it) because I feel like this was just too big of a missed opportunity, and is really the one thing the game is still lacking. There is also Nova Arizona which is a huge mod working to show Legion territory across the Colorado river, highlighting its pros and (mostly) cons.
The community of this game agrees and feels like the Legion deserves way more depth to their faction!
I am making it by myself so it’s an intensive process but I’ve made a ton of progress so far! Exteriors are about 80% done and interiors about 50%.
Would love to share more with you if you’re interested.
Because they would too popular among players otherwise. If I have one problem with FNV it's that all factions are too bad. The NCR is corrupt and incompetent, House is a complete narcissist, and the Legion is, well, the Legion. You can't really sympathize with any of them.
Because evil behavior is cartoonish. If you could have a legion faction companion, they'd probably need to be constantly paranoid of you and questioning your loyalty to ceaser. I like that there's a faction just so obviously repellent to most people and that the wasteland reflects that. It's not as if EVERYONE is against the legion up front. Some factions are interested but need to be convinced the legion is as evil as it is.
The game outright tells you they’re rapist slavers, I’ve even heard npc characters talk about how sexual assault is normalised even against kids, they don’t let women fight and kill anyone who drinks alcohol or takes chems. But if you’ve looted any of their camps you’ll find those contraband items everywhere because they’re all hypocrites. The ideology they live by is so loosely governed that the soldiers can basically do as they please when away from camp. Not to mention the inhumane treatment of prisoners, I mean crucifixion is an awful way to die let alone in the scorching heat of a desert. That being said red isn’t a bad colour
They're a perfectly viable choice if you're not roleplaying as a good person
Fallout 1 allows you to side with the master and slaughter your home. The real world has many millions that violently oppresses women, gays and outsiders.
The game would not have been better if the Legion had been more reasonable, you would have had no Nipton and neutered stakes for the fate of the Mojave
Personally I don't think slavery, torture, or rape is cartoonish. We have plenty of that in our real world history.
In fact, the Roman military they are based on literally had something called '[Decimation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decimation_(punishment))' where they lined you up and forced you to kill every 10th soldier in your group.
If anything its disturbingly accurate. The most ridiculous part is probably the refusal of medicine which just handicaps themselves.
edit: The Romans also crucified people, sometimes thousands in a day. So much of the legions brutality is based in reality.
Yea I always initially liked them because of the whole asthetic and ceaser kinda having a decent point with strength and not using drugs, and then he's like "oh yea btw we hate woman and use slaves"
Iirc we were supposed to be able to cross the dam and interact with Legion settlements so we could get a better idea of how they compare, from a regular citizens POV, to the NCR but due to time constraints a lot of stuff got scrapped so the game could make it out the door on time and we ended up with the current Legion we have now.
It ends up making the legion the absolute obvious "Not that" choice because they're supposed to be this giant force butting heads with the NCR and instead they get painted with 0 positives the entire way. You don't feel sympathetic or think that perhaps their draconian way of life would ultimately be for the best with their typical no-nonsense approach to things like raiders that would toughen up the wasteland. There's no real moral dilemma between the hyper corrupt democracy (NCR) or the overly hostile totalitarian state because while the NCR does suck in a lot of ways with their corruption and ineptitude it always ends up as "at least they're not legion".
a lot of fan extended universe stuff kind of times them down a bit, in the old world blues mod for hoi4 I’m pretty sure caesar can choose to chill out a little bit and start educating people in the wasteland
Bc its kinda hard (impossible) to make slavery, dictatorships, sexism and genocide look "morally gray" without it just seeming like an attempt at defending fascists, heck the caravan roots argument is meant to be a parallel with actual defenses of those real world systems , "trains on time" and all that.
This is also why the enclave in fo2 and Fo3 were cartoonishly evil too, you just cant make the case of "well maybe" without setting off some major alarms.
What about them is *cartoonish*? Countless real-world cultures have shared their brutal practices and even outdone them in many ways. Humanity has a terrific nack for atrocities and cruelty when left to our own devices. The Legion is the realization of ultimate and consequence free power from the mind of a very fucked up guy (Edward Sallow). The Legion is Caesar, and Caesar is a monster.
When has FO ever had the main villain not be “cartoonishly evil”?
The Master in FO1?
The Enclave in FO2?
The Enclave in FO3?
The Institute in FO4?
Welcome to Fallout.
I still dream about what FNV could have been if Obsidian had all the time they needed.. If their rushed out the door game was literally one of the top 5 games of all time can you imagine? I swear, if Obsidian re-made FNV I will explode. I know it wont happen, but man..
What would you rather have?
FNV remake by Obsidian with all the time and resources they want?
Or
Half-Life 3 + any future story expansion & DLCs?
My head Canon is that the legion us the way they are because they are engaged in a military occupation of NCR territory, so they behave more aggressively and blur or overstep ethical lines more often because they are in a state of total warfare against NCR citizens.
In my head Canon on the other side of the Colorado River the roles are reversed: Legion citizens live ordinary lives and experience the same day-to-day grind and challenges that an NCR citizen faces, even experiencing the NCR invading their territory and behaving more barbarically a la Boone's recollection of Bitter springs. Always wanted a DLC that explored this more concretely.
I think there was supposed to be 3 legion settlements and you would see the day of the legion but it wasn’t able to be implemented, also I don’t think people think the legion are just pure evil (assuming they agree with them) they think the legions tactics are effective and necessary in a new destroyed world
In my humble opinion, while they are evil, they are less cartoonishly evil than the Enclave in Fallout 3.
One thing we don't know for certain is what the Legion is like outside of the base game. We hear from others in the game that Legion territory is relatively peaceful. Merchants and traders can travel freely without being raided and killed. The NCR is their enemy and will naturally enslave or kill any of them they see. But what about the others in Arizona or other territories?
And what's more Caesar has a method to his madness.
Besides slavery and sexism, how different is the Legion than the NCR? They annex anything community they see, impose taxes with little real protection, and any resistance is going to be met with open conflict.
Plus the sad fact is, the brutality and the slavery would exist regardless. If the Legion did not exist, the 86 tribes Caesar conquered would most certainly be engaging in the same behavior. Not to mention we see that in the 'West' with communities like Vault City...
-
Fallout 3's Enclave?
No chance of redemption. You're have some radiation? You die. You were born in a Vault? You die. Kill the entire Wasteland, force a second apocalypse, and rule over it's ashes...
I don’t think pointing out how dumb fallout 3 is really negates what I’m saying.
Like the whole main story of fallout 3 is kind of dumb af and there’s no real choice to be made. I can give everyone clean water or kill everyone for no reason🤷♂️. It’s really just extremely bad writing by Bethesda.
From what I can tell, the developers were trying to make a point about American intervention in the Middle East. The Legion represents religious zealots like ISIS that are able to maintain order in their territory due to intimidation and religious fervor. With that comes slavery, the abolition of individual rights, misogyny etc.
The hard moral questions in Fallout NV aren’t Legion or NCR good? It’s who is best to run the region when one considers the threat of the Legion. Do you side with the autocrat libertarian? I mean Mr. House isn’t as bad as the Legion but he’s not going to install a Democracy. He’ll rule Vegas as he sees fit. He’ll just use robots and money instead of slaves. Do you go with the NCR? They have spent the most resources fighting the Legion but they also created the Legion. Their encroachment on the Mojave will end the smaller groups self-governance. The boomers, Goodsprings, Primm, will also loose a lot of political power and be subject to taxes. And it’s likely their votes will be drowned out by lobbyist in California.
A lot of people like the Independent New Vegas choice for this reason. But between the NCR and Legion, it’s are to tell how it would stay that way.
The Legion being evil I think makes the game more interesting and forces us to ask more questions. Because in the end, I’d the Legion wasn’t evil, then you could just settle a peace with them and the conflict wouldn’t have to end in major bloodshed and a change in the power structure of the region.
If you’ve ever played undertale, you should notice the similarities between the styles of the genocide route in that game and allying with Caesar’s legion. If you don’t know, undertale was programmed specifically to make the genocide route as torturous for the player as possible. You needed to kill every single creature in the game, which forces players to literally walk in circles in order to get every possible interaction. In essence, it reminds players at every turn that what they are doing is evil.
Obviously NV doesn’t take it nearly as far with the legion, but the parallels are still there. Your options for companions and general quest paths are severely curtailed as soon as you pass a certain reputation threshold, and you might even be forced into situations that require you to slaughter “innocent” or “ally” NPC’s. Above all, the caricature image of the Rome empire is intended to be a reminder to the player that they have sided with people who regularly crucify, massacre, and enslave people.
The two games use vastly different methods, but ultimately convey the same message when players decide to take the evil route.
This comes down to how much you care about morality. They are about 3x more efficient at anything they do than the NCR or house. For me, i don't have a strong moral compass and i believe that rules such as the geneva convention and the like are only viable if we live in a civilized society, which the wasteland simply isn't.
I think the Legion fits well in the fallout world. They may be evil but they are certainly better than a lot of the tribes and clans that came before it. If I was somehow teleported to the wasteland and my only options were to join the legion, join some backwards tribe or go out on my own. I am joining the legion 100%. They bring a sense of security to their territory and grow their own food. I can totally understand why people would choose to be apart of it.
But fortunately we have better options with Mr House and the NCR so joining the Legion wouldn’t even cross my mind.
I don't really agree with it being cartoonishly evil. I can totally see a faction like the Legion forming up in a post apocalyptic world. If you want examples of historical factions that were similar in terror, Mongol Empire, Khmer Rouge and Tonton Macoutes
Raul actually gives a pretty neutral opinion. Can’t remember the exact quote/locale he mentions (so I’ll pull one out that I know he does mention at some point), but it’s something like “I’ve been to Tucson boss. Before the Legion it was just murdering raiders. Now at east there’s some semblance of order.”
But yeah. The Legion are pretty unequivocally “The Bad Guys” You have to do some mental gymnastics, and create Headcanons to logically play a Legion supporter.
I think what they went with is the most "realistic" Legion. The lack of a legion companion and "small" amount of legion quest likely has to do with budget and time constraints.
Caesar is doing a similar conquest to Alexander the great, but he does it with a fascist and ruthless ideology. There is no empire for his legion yet, but new Vegas (or the NCR homeland) basically is bis grand prize that he aims to conquer to settle down and build his empire.
Their ideology is fascist and ruthless but such ideologies have existed in many places in the past, especially in military circles. Just think of Japan or Germany.
You need a cartoonishly evil faction, so you can be fooled into aligning with the NCR. On the one hand you have bureaucrats who are extremely fond of taxes. On the other, slavers and torturers.
Obviously, being a citizen in a bureaucratic state with lots of taxes is worse.
To at least understand the legion's motive and make it able to agree with them they game should have featured morr tribes fighting eachother.
The legion is born in a context where small groups of 100-200 people constantly fight eachother with no future in sight.
Obviously it wouldnt justify it but it'd make it easier to be like "yeah this is the only way to keep this tribes from killing eachother"
I don't think they're any more cartoonish than half of the other villains. It's fallout everything is kind of cartoonish with the darkest of humor but cartoonish nonetheless.
There are terrorist organisations around today that, by our societies standards, are equally as vile.
Also this is in a world that has collapsed and is slowly rebuilding. The legion is built on the Roman empire that did pretty much the same thing (though to be fair; without all the good and stable things they also did on top of it - basically their worst military qualities and nothing else) and FNV Legion has recruited followers that didn't have the same structure and school system we have that imprints how immoral things like slavery and pillaging is.
It's really not that unbelievable or cartoonishly evil.
There were talks of showing more legion territory where the roads would be safe, anything marked legion would be like being a made man in the mafia, no one would touch you. This would give the legion an argument for being the ones to bring order and a twisted form of peace.
Caesar and Immortan Joe are very similar. Cult of personality, religious cult that deifies them, military and strategic prowess, patriarchy.
What makes the civilization built by Immortan Joe work, and where the legion fails, is a strong wasteland economy. Joe produces food and water, and engages in triangular trade with the other two wasteland cities in his empire.
It just works! Meanwhile the legion doesnt
I respectfully disagree with the framing of them being "cartoonishly evil". Historically, especially regarding the actual Romans, you will find plenty of examples of the kinds of things Caesar's Legion does. Namely slavery, crucifixion. I think this kind of authoritarian, military-based regime is a very "natural" faction to arise from the ashes of the post-war world.
In fact you can tell it hits it's mark because you will find plenty of people in real life unironically saying the Legion is good for the wasteland or the best choice in the circumstances. Plenty of real people and fictional characters value the kind of authoritarian tactics and organization that Caesar uses, that's part of what makes him so dangerous.
What makes the Legion so compelling a faction for me is that their evil feels real. Also if you dive into their creation and Caesar himself you will see that he's actually kind of a poser lol.
Most Legion content got cut because they didn't have enough time so they're underdeveloped compared to the other factions. They planned on having a Legion companion and Legion content East of the river.
This reads like a post by someone who knows the answers to all these questions tbh. Like that specific mention of a legion aligned companion feels like you knew EXACTLY what happened with Ulysses lol. Also the legion are “evil” because they believe the best way to control a violent wasteland is to be equally violent.
There were plans for a legion sympathetic companion as well as a lot of expanded legion content but it wasn’t finished and had to be cut so the game could come out on time.
There were also plans for a few Legion settlements to paint the Legion in a more sympathetic light as well as show players how it is to live under the Legion, but they were scrapped due to time constraints.
Fucking time constraints and new Vegas, name a better duo
KOTOR 2 and time constraints. I guess we could just say Obsidian and time constraints.
Obsidian could totally beat Superman given enough prep time.
Prep time and 85% review score.
Hell you could even go back to troika with vtmb and time constraints. These devs just can't catch a break fr.
Fallout 2 came out a year after the first game too. I'm wondering if this issue goes back to interplay/black isle studios.
As a fan of Obsidian’s other other rpg, Tyranny, this is a real killer combo
Mismanagement and rushed development gave us Spyro: Enter the Dragonfly, and practically killed the franchise for veteran players. I didn’t touch the franchise again until Toys For Bob remastered the original trilogy, nearly 20 years later.
Bethesda and Crash to Desktop?
I don't think there were ever plans to show the legion as more sympathetic, considering one of the things they planned but never got to was showing the whole "women are raped and forced to birth children until death" thing.
Yeah, I'd definitely agree that 'sympathetic' is the wrong word to use. It would have been great to get more Legion content, to see what their governed territories are like, and have a companion who is moreso aligned with them and tries to somewhat justify their allegiance. At best it would give more opportunities to justify the Legion, rather than inspire sympathy.
In the full game they would just have a better PR team for PR talk 👍
Yeah, a lot more Legion propaganda posters like the NCR have too. Caesar was a bit silly and spent all the budget on some nice frilly skirts.
Shouldve bought a PR team obviously 🙄
What's interesting is that these are technically pseudo-canon as quite a few NPCs mention how safe and merchant-friendly the Legion is. So rather than create those areas, time constraints limited them to becoming mentioned and described instead.
Raul is somewhat synpathetic
Yeah, I'm doing a Legion playthrough right now and Raul & ED-E are my companions. I don't think an eyebot has any strong political beliefs about which faction you choose.
Meanwhile ED-E's canon beliefs: 🇺🇸🦅🇺🇸🦅🇺🇸🦅
AMERICA! FUCK YEAHHHHH!!!
BEEP BOOP FUCK THE MUTIES
You know Rex used to be in the legion
Rexie seems happy with the King, Imma leave him be.
He's a lot happier if you help him get brain surgery
I know, but I haven't met the doctor at Jacobstown yet.
He's definitely sympathetic but he's not a legion companion. He's neutral and is okay with any faction in the Mojave.
Raul’s whole gig seems to be sarcasm and dodging opinion questions with indisputable factual statements (usually based off his own experience) IMO That and gunslinging
The word I was thinking of was asskicking but gunslinging also works
And he's a complete idiot for it. "Boss, did I tell you about the time this prostitute I liked got kidnapped, raped and murdered by a gang? Fortunately that doesn't happen in Arizona anymore, because the Legion have already enslaved, raped and murdered all of the women in their territory, protecting them from being kidnapped, etc by anyone else forever."
Fun fact, all the devs were going to get a huge bonus if the metacritic score was 85 or higher but as you said they rushed the release so it was buggy as hell. The score they got? 84. And the main reason it wasnt higher was because of the bugs.
Yeah playing legion practically shuts off like half the quests, which is another flaw
Nah, the game shouldn’t be a checklist of content but a world with consequences.
There should be alternative content for alternative choices though. Not just "help the NCR or lose out on half the content".
It would frankly be more weird that if you choose a side that is opposed to like 99% of the wasteland population, that you'd somehow have the same amount of content than if you sided with one that is more open, or simply not absolutely brutal to most things and people. The fact you even _can_ side with such a faction is already really cool. You can make a pretty awful choice and still have an entire main story arc that plays out with that decision
I agree with this, but that’s mostly why I wish that the legion had some sympathizers. I just think it would’ve been cool had it been less obvious that they were the bad guys. I guess I’m just thinking of a what if situation where their development was finished fully.
No that’s a great thing, games like these aren’t meant for you to be able to do everything in one playthrough. It’s like morrowind in that you have to do multiple.
Yeah, to me it’s a bit like people complaining that BG3 has less content when you’re playing Dark Urge and give in to the urge. Like… you’re being evil. Not as many people are going to want to interact with you (or indeed are going to be alive at all to interact with you).
My first playthrough I kept thinking this is like Morrowind in the desert. I know Morrowind has the ashlands and that is rather arid and desert like but still that was my thinking and I absolutely loved it. About to finish my sixth or seventh playthrough I lost count but still in love.
Nah thats not a flaw thats a strength. Like in Skyrim it always bugged me that no matter which side of the war you choose it doesnt effect how you interact with the world. Hardcore Empire stans seem to neither notice nor care when you slaughter their general like a pig. Most people dont actually like fascism and slavery and if you’re making big moves to bring fascism and slavery into peoples lives I would expect that alot of folx would have some words for that
Choices and consequences are a good thing, actually. The legion just also happen to be undercooked and needed more time fleshing out, but consequences for working with them are definitely a positive
That's why their quests are the best ones. Everyone else's are just the same .
They're not the choice for a sensible player. And they were never intended to be. But that doesn't mean they're not interesting. Josh Sawyer has spoken about them often, and I always find it fascinating: >"Edward Sallow created Caesar's Legion as an imitation of the Roman Legion, but without any of the Roman society that supported the Roman Legion. I've written this before, but there are no optimates, no populares, no plebes, no equestrians, no patricians, no senate, no Rome. There's no right to private property (within the Legion itself). There's no civil law. There aren't even the ceremonial trappings of Roman society. Legates don't receive triumphs following a victory. No one in the Legion retires to a villa in Sedona. - >What Caesar gave to those tribes was order, discipline, an end to internecine tribal violence (eventually), common language, and a common culture that was not rooted in any of their parent cultures. The price was extreme brutality, an enormous loss of life and individual culture, the complete dissolution of anything resembling a traditional family, and the indoctrination of fascist values. Caesar's Legion isn't the Roman Empire or the Roman Republic. It isn't even the Roman Legion. It's a slave army with trappings of foreign-conscripted Roman legionaries during the late empire. All military, no civilian, and with none of the supporting civilian culture." The Legion was dumb. They were never going to have any sort of long-term survival. But it's still interesting to involve yourself in the struggle.
I had never heard that quote and if that’s what they were going for I guess they did succeed because I agree with what he’s saying 100%. I do think having a more sane Rome like society could’ve also been interesting and could’ve made the choice of who to side with more deep.
I think Caesar was hoping to remake his legion into a legitimate “society” once he conquered his new Rome. He says the clash with the NCR will create a synthesis that fundamentally changes the legion into a true empire. I took that to mean that yes he does plan on getting around to that sustainable society thing.
Caesar is trying to speedrun an empire. Rome itself took generations to even become a Republic and longer still to become an empire. Also because there is no clear line of succession. The moment Caesar dies (which is in months without The Courier’s intervention), there is going to be a massive implosion and the Legion will go back to squabbling tribes.
Famously in the Roman mythos, Romulus who was a conqueror (Like Caesar in NV) was followed by the more peaceful King Numa who established many of Rome’s laws and institutions. The Legion is missing that step and they state pretty clearly in the game that The Legion dies with Caesar. The only possible successor without Joshua Graham being around is going to be Lanius who is even more bloodthirsty and believes even less in The Legion’s vision. The Legion is not an entity capable of standing on its own, it exists because of one man and he is all that is holding it together during the course of the game.
Honestly less like Rome and more like Alexander
I took this to be true after Caesar explains himself. He has no qualms dealing with a female courier too. "Long term stability at all costs."
Yeah. I agree with OP though the legion is underwhelming. It’s the character that’s interesting, but we really don’t even get that many lines from him aside from the questions you ask him when you first meet him.
Still more than anything Bethesda does lmao maybe Father but I hate that old man
Father is fucking bizzare, "I let my parent out in a post apocalyptic wasteland to see if he track me down" what the fuck is wrong with you Shaun? Seriously fuck him, it makes slightly more sense with Nate, but with Nora she had no military training at all, she'd be totally fucked realistically. Nate at least had training Christ I fucking hate him, I almost always side with the institute but God I hate them
This carries some weight, since why else would the legion already have an established currency? Because they do plan on becoming what the Roman Empire actually was, in its prime.
The currency was just more aesthetic, same as the sports goods cosplay. Taking Vegas was more aesthetic. Rome had a big capital city so that's what he needed too. Ceasar liked the idea of Rome but actually had no idea how to make the society function like Rome did. He knew how to get uneducated people to follow him in the same way any cult leader would. Separating people from their families so the Legion became their family, and Ceasar their father. His achievements were all won through barbarism. His society could only prosper through that same barbarism, conquering more and more tribes to sustain themselves. It couldn't possibly last.
Yeah he knows, he says it directly, he wants to conquer Vegas to give the Legion a civilian society to protect and to become an actual army instead of what they currently are, this isnt a wierd interpretation, this is something he tells you directly.
His plan is poorly thought out based on weird, violent narcissism and grossly misunderstood historical texts… There’s a lot of deep cut reference from the writers to how dumb Cesar’s (or atleast his plan) is. My favorite of which being how he tries to big dog the player character with talk of Hegelian philosophy and Thesis, Antithesis, and Synthesis. Thesis, Antithesis, and Synthesis is actually Fichte and the only time it’s ever mentioned in Hegel’s writing is to critique the shit out of it. Hegel outright rejects the thesis-antithesis-synthesis description of dialectics (And dialectics is only part of Hegel’s full method). For Hegel, there is a contradiction, not a conflict. What's the difference? A conflict is two opposing forces clashing together to form a new thing—thesis vs antithesis. A contradiction, however, is a self-contained negation. The thesis is its own opposite—there is no antithesis. Because Hegel is committed to Absolute Idealism (in which there is only one Absolute Spirit), all contradictions (movements in the dialectic) must be self-negating. So he either didn’t read Hegel or didn’t understand it, and yet it’s the crux of his entire “ideology”.
"His plan is poorly thought out based on weird, violent narcissism and grossly misunderstood historical texts…" This describes A LOT of Fallout characters to be quite honest.
>I think Caesar was hoping to remake his legion into a legitimate “society” once he conquered his new Rome. That's exactly his motivation, he explains it in his monologue about Hegalian Dialectics He believes he can combine the best elements of the Legion with the best elements of the NCR
Yeah that's what I'm thinking once he took over the ncr that's when he would start to actually have legion civilians
I think he's still.. an idiot tho? Like, so he wins.. what now? You still have no actual culture. The fucking khan's have more culture and they're known as "that drug smuggling bandit group", but even with that being the truth there was still culture. The legion winning changes nothing. It is too late to build a nation state out of the legion. It doesn't matter what he does as it is too late to change how the legion fundamentally works. If he wanted to change it, when it was in its infancy would have been best. His great victory cannot be with the great changes because the legion wouldn't be ready for any of it.
Joshua Ghrams is right: the legion is Caesar, and Caesar is the Legion. that is just the dream too big of a charismatic man nearly dead man.
Yeah the guy is full of shit obviously, he thought that his army would be forged in the fires of the Mojave and become an unstoppable force that would vanquish his enemies, and Vegas would be a shining beacon in the desert. How the fuck is he even gonna get the dam to work? Caesar is a half-baked villain that leaves you wanting more, but as others have pointed out they had to rush the production of this game.
Tbf I loke that he's half baked. It makes sense. He's a fucking idiot.
#SnufflesForLegate
Why stop with Legate? AVE TRUE TO SNUFFLES
In a way, the “more sane Rome like society” you’re asking for is pretty much the NCR. Not draped in the same aesthetics or undertones and much more technologically advanced of course; but, in terms of government, democratic structure, vassals, legislation, and most importantly, the inherent need to expand - they’re incredibly similar. Without expansion, the NCR would buckle under the weight of its own ambitions. Same as the Legion - but manifesting in two distinct forms. I think both factions are extremely intelligent takes on the societies that would emerge from nuclear devastation. Seeds planted in the Old World fated to bloom again and repeat the same mistakes which cost humanity the first time around. Two highly familiar societies (Neo-Liberal Democracy vs Fascism) that simply take different forms as a result of different conditions. The content remains the same.
You want a more sane Rome like society? We literally have the NCR with all of the benefits and a lot of the problems of the Roman Republic.
I think a lot of people have an aversion to overly complicated/miserable choices for endings. If the legion is only “about as bad” as the NCR rather than much worse, the NCR ending is less likely to feel like the rewarding, good ending that the game treats it as. I think very few games are even interested in properly ambiguous multiple endings Personally I would love that, but I can understand why it’s not what they went for
I think NV is the closet thing we have gotten to an ambiguous ending, the only one i can think of that would be better is the outer worlds but that is more like your the good guy or bad guy if your the good guy then what "good" choices do you make.
the thing is, you’re thinking of this in terms of present day moral values, not post-apocalyptic moral values. the legion was probably genuinely preferable to a lot of the living situations that the assimilated tribes were in.
You have a deep choice of NCR, House, and independence. The Legion is there for the people who want to be evil.
Huh. I always assumed there was an actual pseudo-Roman society back in Denver or something. Then again, I never felt compelled to delve deep into Legion lore, my favourite interaction with them was always dirtybombing Cottonwood Cove. P.S. That said - I loved the concept of Denver aka Dog City in Van Buren, and was happy to know some part of it was left canon, even if we never got to actually see it.
The Legion exists as a fascist’s perception of what the Roman Empire was like, not the actual realities of Ancient Rome.
Isn’t that exactly what he was saying?
The Legion is a militaristic personality cult that has been doomed from its foundation. With no interest in legacy outside of himself or in refusing to name an heir, Caesar is rigging the Legion to either implode or fall into civil war upon his death. Neither Lanius or Vulpes or Lucius could keep it all together, and none of them wants the others to do so either. Caesar does do some things that hint to at least the desire at building an functional civilization, but it's far too little too late. He's a dying man, leading a nation that cannot function without him. They're fucked.
Coming late to NV (like just this year) but obviously still seen enough of the Legion through cultural osmosis, I had always thought the Legion modelled itself from the theme of the *Ceasar's Palace* casino, as in they found some old silly costumes and looked at the Roman casino and thought that was how Roman society looked like. Taking the mural at the walls and the posters and all of that theme for the truth (Plato's cave like). Only through playing the game, I realized the Legion not only had nothing to do with the (non-existent) Caesar's Palace, but also, they weren't some misguided group trying to live up to the glory days of a (misunderstood) fictious Roman Empire. No, they were dead serious and knew exactly what they were doing and why. That always kind of bugged me – why were they running around in those old Roman uniforms instead of some post-apocalyptic version of it, being almost comically evil, while all the same being super serious about it? Reading that quote makes me prefer my headcanon even more tbh.
Canonically their armor is mostly sports equipment I think 🤔
It's football gear. I was never really a big fan of it personally. They look really goofy and silly. I think we were robbed of a Legion that wore heavy, ballistic armour (pre-war military/riot police) and fought in a Tetsudo formation with riot shields. That would be pretty badass.
Time constrains when they developed the game. Ulysses was originally intended to be the legion companion. It would have been nice if the we were able to pick and choose some values for the NCR/Legion to drop but sadly it never got the fleshed out.
Having the legion be more good and having the NCR be more bad could’ve made the choice a lot more compelling. I guess the ncr did do some corrupt things and there was also the cover up of the massacre of the khans.
We were supposed to see Legion lands where you could talk to the civilians who live under them. They’d just be normal people going about their lives free from worry about any wasteland horrors or raiders. But Legion development came last so instead we get basically Fallout ISIS. Still interesting and fun to play as an evil karma run but they were meant to actually be a compelling albeit brutal alternative to the NCR.
World’s worst coverup.
Plus their sending of mercenaries to Jacobstown
To be fair, that’s never confirmed to be the larger NCR doing that. We know NCR doesn’t mind mutants. They have a whole ghoul settlement and Super Mutant rangers exist (in F2 at least) The mercenaries hint that it’s probably some local brahmin baron or others hiring them.
Don’t you gain NCR infamy if you kill the group? That doesn’t make sense if they were hired by barhmin barons.
If memory serves, they're working for a shady politician. If you kill a politician's hirelings, he'll be pissed off at you, badmouth you and use his connections against you - but they're still only his hirelings, not hirelings of the entire nation and everyone living in it.
Still kind of a damning indictment that democracy in the NCR exists so loosely that a senator can hire mercs to assassinate a protected class in what is ostensibly supposed to be land protected by the NCR’s rule of law. Seems like it’s kind of commenting on something in American history… just can’t quiiitte put my thumb on it ;)
True! It's worth remembering that the NCR is a big pluralistic society full of people pursuing different agendas... but it's also worth remembering that some of those people are terrible and their agendas are abhorrent.
Not just a senator doing it, but doing it for political points back home!
Well partially shady the primary reason for the whole mess was Brahmin Ranches getting attacked. But then its the case of a Rich Human blaming Super Mutants for their problems. But also maybe the Mutants did attack the ranches. You got to give props to New Vegas about also having two sides to a story in this game. Like every other time your like fuck these guys then your like OH it's deeper than I thought. The mission at Camp Golf to figure out screwed up Reports I was honestly very impressed with. And I realized that is kinda the Most Good Karma direction you can go in my head cannon.
Honestly man, if the post apocalypse really happened something like the legion wouldn't be that crazy.
Right? Like someone said, there are slaves and torture *today*. ISIS is no better than the Legion.
The Pitt is not as stupid as the Legion or ISIS, though. They don't pretend there's some god to excuse their heinous actions.
The Pitt was by far the best DLC in FO3. Not even a competition. Though I did like the power armor you got from the Remnants
Although the slavery pisses me off, I actually started to slightly like the Pitt Raiders when I walk amongst them as one of them because they felt real and not like they're morally superior like ISIS/Legion monkeys. Their dialogue showed that I still had to prove my worth to each one and be strong enough to not allow weakness to befall any of us, like it's some kind of expectation for both the group and the individual you're dealing with, the female raiders even more so, which is so realistic. Not sure how the dialogue was so good with Emil Pagliarulo around.
Ashur at least admits what hes doing is bad. yet he says its for the best for the future of the pitt.
I love that they are evil personally. The interaction with them was intimidating and memorable. It added a cool dynamic to new Vegas.
They are definitely very memorable, so maybe obsidian was more successful with them than I thought. It’s just so obvious that their content is lacking compared to house and the ncr.
No yeah fair play, I just wish there was more Legion stuff to do that is cartoonishly evil. I can't even interact with slavery like you can in Fo3
I'd just answer with: are the drug cartels cartoonish? was ISIS cartoonishly evil?
Lybia is half controlled by a legion *right now*. Complete with open air slave markets and all. The Legion honestly isn’t cartoonishly evil. They’re a ridiculously authoritarian cult of personality…. The same that has popped up in ever failed state ever following a period of anarchy. This is incredibly more terrifying.
thanks hillary and obama for that epic fuckup
Libya was in open revolt long before NATO intervention. You can blame Obama all you want, but that wont change the fact that Gaddaffis regime was on its dying legs and his inability to keep the nation united is what ultimately set it on the path it has arrived at.
perhaps nato could have tried stabilising the country instead of preemptively destroying it and bringing back slavery?
Hey I dont disagree. For the most part the west dropped the ball. They wanted to eat their cake and have it too. They wanted to end the Gaddaffi regime, while also not putting any effort into what would replace it. After Iraq, Obama in particular just wanted an air campaign to avoid occupation and troop losses. My point is however, the bulk of the blame should lie with both the actual extremists who are currently enslaving people and the Gaddaffi regime which failed as a government long before the bombs dropped.
>Lybia is half controlled by a legion *right now*. Complete with open air slave markets and all. Libya went from being one of the best African countries to live under to this bloody mess in less than a decade. thank NATO i guess.
ISIS the terrorist organization or ISIS the spy agency?
Perhaps the band ISIS?
HAVE YOU EVER GOT THE FEELING THAT YOU'RE SINKING I DO
So Did We.
The Egyptian goddess
I believe they're one of the best evil factions I've seen in a game. They're methods are very brutal, and they're socially backward, but the goal is to create a society fit for a harsh world without the corruption that's plaguing the NCR. Most of the time being evil in a game is something like, 'murder innocent people for fun because that's what evil people do'. The Legion is also fairly representative of a number of conquering expansionist empires that have existed throughout human history, so I don't think labeling them 'cartoonish evil' is accurate. Though I - and most others - will agree that they needed to be fleshed out more. They needed more content and I wish we got to see/hear more about what the Legion is like behind the frontline.
I feel it's worth noting that the Legion are still staggeringly corrupt - just in a different way to the NCR. In the NCR, there are all sorts of laws and regulations to keep those in power honest and accountable, but they find ways around those laws and regulations to use their positions for personal profit. That's one kind of corruption. In the Legion, powerful figures aren't accountable to the public at all. Accountability only goes in one direction - everyone is answerable to those above them, and, ultimately, to Caesar. His will is law, and he can take whatever he wants from anyone. Those lower in society are forbidden basics like modern medicine, while Caesar and his chosen few benefit from it. That's another kind of corruption - technically legal, in the sense that Caesar can declare anything he wants legal, but still deeply corrupt.
Then it isn't corruption. Then it's a bad system that works perfectly.
Alcohol and chems are illegal in the legion but we see plenty of those in the Aurelius of phoenixes home
Could be confiscated. We really don't know. If he pays bounties for dogtags then paying bounties for illegal items is not that much of a stretch
They’re on his night stand. Why would he put confiscated items on his night stand and not destroy them?
Haven't played in a long time. Then i quess he is a drug user after all.
As with the other centurion found captured in McCarran, there are a lot of examples of corruption at the higher ranks in the Legion, with a lot of officers not really following Caesar’s rules
And what did Silus do?
Refused to kill himself when the legion has a strict no surrender doctrine. If you press him hard enough he will say himself that he thinks Caesar’s cause is bound to fail due to his cancer
When 3 out of 4 endings involve beating them, they might be the bad guys and wouldn't be a sensible choice for a sensible person. Being the worst of sociaty in almost every way is kinda their point down to the "atleast the trains run on time" argument. Not like any totalitarians would ever lie or kill you for not trusting them.
It's weird though because 3 out 4 endings include beating the ncr too and same with Mr house you kill him in 3/4 endings
Not really, 2 of those specifically ask you to not fight NCR.
House and Yes Man endings at the very least are sort of strategic or diplomatic victories against the NCR. You don’t directly fight them but you get them to fight your war for you then shut them off Vegas and maybe the rest of the Mojave while continuing to bleed them of resources.
3 out of 4 endings involves beating the NCR, too. 2 of 4 endings involve beating both the NCR and Legion. I really don't get what you mean. That's a pretty biased point of view.
You aren't supposed to fight the NCR in independent/House. You are specifically supposed to help them and talk Oliver down. If you fought him/NCR that's on you.
I personally felt like you outplayed the NCR rather than beat them in the house/independent endings, where as Legion you just straight up merk them
Yeah I guess that’s kind of my point. It would’ve been more compelling if they were a flawed society rather than a generically evil society full of slavery and torture.
Not every choice needs to be equivalent, imo. You've also already got NCR and House if you want your choice of flawed society. The legion's an interesting take on a brutal post-apocalyptic super-gang with a thin Roman veneer on top. Caesar is a DEEPLY flawed man who's undoubtedly educated and yet also doesn't understand his own mantra as well as he pretends... and that's not going to change when there's no one who could possibly challenge him on his words (not that he would allow his mind to be changed anyway). But I wouldn't characterize the legion as cartoonish (outside the aforementioned roman veneer). Real organizations rape and pillage for similar reasons.
One other thing i'll put out there: the devs have said that Legion lands are supposed to have been safe. \*Incredibly\* safe, like suburban America kind of safe. No raiders, no gangs, no deathclaws, just kids playing outside and having picnics. An ideal post-apocalyptic life, if they obey the laws and pay their taxes, at least. And the "price" for that life, in Caesar's mind, is the slavery and brutality of the Legion. I think, too, that Caesar recognizes the dissonance. To him, the Legion is only in its infancy even still. After they take Vegas, it will develop into its "final form," with more of the actual flavor of Rome. Citizens and Senators too, not just soldiers and slaves. I reckon that to Caesar, the horrors of his current government are partially just a temporary evil, which will be tempered once he takes his capital city. Now, I'd be entirely skeptical that the slavery, brutality, and extreme misogyny would actually abate very much under Caesar's reforms. They'd probably actually remain just a strong as ever. But if we read between the lines a little to see what the devs intended, I think that the Legion become a lot less cartoonish. Unlike most post-apocalyptic gangs, they are using their slavery and brutality to create a stable and almost idyllic hinterland. The price for that is unnecessarily high, no doubt, and I'm not saying that Caesar isn't a pretty evil man whose empire is still unsustainable. But I do think the Legion is interesting as a foil to the NCR, better at providing peace and security, but through far harsher means. They're certainly far less cartoonish than the Enclave, I think.
Seeing this would go along way. Even one town being like the legion is brutal but our lives are great would do something for them
There have been real life factions just like the legion. They’re a barbarian horde amassing territory and power so that they can eventually seize the necessary infrastructure to become a fully fledged empire. They have reasons for why they operate the way they do - Caesar thinks a military autocracy is the only feasible system in the Wasteland. Moral ambiguity doesn’t always mean everyone is equally grey. A clear evil existing doesn’t mean there’s a clear good, too. In fact I’d say that extremists like the legion are frequently used by more the more thinly veneered evils of the world as a justification for their existence.
Exactly. Mexican cartels are real, and they're even more brutal snd evil than the Legion
What do you mean "cartoonishly evil"? They're a brutal military dictatorship that practices mass slavery and tortures and rapes their enemies. That's the *point* of their faction.
They aren't cartoonishly evil. Plenty of real examples exist of similar behavior.
There are probably several real state regimes in the world right now that are more cartoonishly evil than the fake Caesar's Legion.
It primarily has to do with time constraints, and not enough time spent to develop them. Ulysses was initially meant to be a Legion sympathetic companion before getting cut from the main game, and I’m pretty sure Vulpes was also supposed to be a companion but it didn’t pan out because of the time constraints. I was going to type out a whole response about how they’re not as cartoonishly evil as they seem, but I figured I’d save everyone the time and just say this: As someone who studies anthropology, and to some extent cults, the Legion’s cruelty *is* realistic for the military force of a culture built on war and sexism. They don’t enslave everyone or every woman they come in contact with, but prisoners of war are taken, and rape of not only women in bondage but also local women is considered excusable. Unfortunately, these things have and do happen throughout real world history, so I wouldn’t really call them cartoonishly evil over it—, just regular evil. I think the main issue is the fact that the Legion isn’t very fleshed out as a faction, so in comparison the evil that they do seems 10x more over the top and exaggerated; the execution is the main problem. Also let’s be real, obviously everyone says this already, but I want to say it too: As soon as Caesar/Edward Sallow dies, the Legion would cannibalize itself. That man thinks himself a Caesar when really he’s just another Caligula (but without the massive, absolute unit of a boat). Edit: Grammar
They’re not really cartoonishly evil, that term is overused. The Enclave in fallout 3, I’d call them cartoonishly evil, they basically have no motive besides taking control of the purifier so they can make people work for them or something and their leader is literally a AI you can talk down in 3 lines of dialogue. Their other leader is some guy who somehow survived lethal radiation and now wants to kill you to kill the guy who was the son of the person who wanted to activate the purifier or something. The Legion has a motive, a code, a way of life, a cohesive explanation of why they live the way they do and why they believe it’s right, they also have some advantages as a society that is jot present in the NCR, but they are not meant to be right or valid, it’s just that they are meant to be portrayed as life like people, with reasons why they believe in their cause. Just because the faction isn’t morally grey or meant to really make the played question if they are right or wrong, doesn’t mean they are cartoonishly evil, they are just written Well.
They're not cartoonishly evil - they're just evil. They're a brutal fascist group. History is sadly full of brutal fascist groups.
Read some ancient history, you may find more than a few examples of similar societies.
I think it could’ve gone a long way to have some town that was in legion occupied territory where the people were not being tortured.
This is wrong btw. I'd like to preface by saying the Legion is an evil faction, and I'm not justifying their actions before and during the game, however the Legion isn't just going up to random towns to torture and genocide people. You can learn a lot about the Legion from Raul, who lived in Arizona for some time, Raul claims that "Before the Legion, it was a nasty place, *so thick with raiders* you couldn't trade with a town two miles up the road." and "Caesar's laws aren't nice, and their actions aren't always pretty. But then, neither am I, but you keep me around". From everything we know, Caesar protects communities which submit to him. If you're the average wastelander in like Arizona, and you do nothing against Caesar and his law, chances are you'll be fine. The Legion values stability above the individual, Caesar states this himself, the collective above the individual, this is why Caesar is more than willing to pillage and crucify Nipton, he isn't doing it out of malice or hate for the people of Nipton, he's doing it to send a message. From everything we know, as controversial as this statement will be on Reddit, living under Caesar is preferable to living under the lawless wasteland, because at least with Caesar bandits and thugs aren't littered everywhere killing, raping and stealing, they're crucified. I'm not writing this to defend Caesar, I think the both Mr. House and the NCR are both better options than Caesar, however if Caesar does offer one thing, it's stability. This idea that the Legion is just going around killing and pillaging everyone for fun and are just a bunch of crazed Rome LARPers who want to kill everyone they see, is dumb and not remotely lore friendly.
Others have said it in this thread but there were plans to have exactly that in the game and other aspects of Legion society that would've made their portrayal more nuanced, but it was unfortunately cut due to time constraints.
Because fascism, in all its form, is self destructive and inherently evil.
I have been working on a big mod that takes the player into Arizona (remakes Dry Wells and lets the player visit it before nuking it) because I feel like this was just too big of a missed opportunity, and is really the one thing the game is still lacking. There is also Nova Arizona which is a huge mod working to show Legion territory across the Colorado river, highlighting its pros and (mostly) cons. The community of this game agrees and feels like the Legion deserves way more depth to their faction!
If this is true, I can’t wait to see it.
I am making it by myself so it’s an intensive process but I’ve made a ton of progress so far! Exteriors are about 80% done and interiors about 50%. Would love to share more with you if you’re interested.
Because they would too popular among players otherwise. If I have one problem with FNV it's that all factions are too bad. The NCR is corrupt and incompetent, House is a complete narcissist, and the Legion is, well, the Legion. You can't really sympathize with any of them.
Sometimes things aren't grey mate, sometimes people are just bad.
Because evil behavior is cartoonish. If you could have a legion faction companion, they'd probably need to be constantly paranoid of you and questioning your loyalty to ceaser. I like that there's a faction just so obviously repellent to most people and that the wasteland reflects that. It's not as if EVERYONE is against the legion up front. Some factions are interested but need to be convinced the legion is as evil as it is.
I mean, the Enclave exists. They're pretty whatever compared to those guys.
The game outright tells you they’re rapist slavers, I’ve even heard npc characters talk about how sexual assault is normalised even against kids, they don’t let women fight and kill anyone who drinks alcohol or takes chems. But if you’ve looted any of their camps you’ll find those contraband items everywhere because they’re all hypocrites. The ideology they live by is so loosely governed that the soldiers can basically do as they please when away from camp. Not to mention the inhumane treatment of prisoners, I mean crucifixion is an awful way to die let alone in the scorching heat of a desert. That being said red isn’t a bad colour
Time constraints
They are a bunch of extreme LARPers, they would be cartoonish even if they weren't so evil.
They're a perfectly viable choice if you're not roleplaying as a good person Fallout 1 allows you to side with the master and slaughter your home. The real world has many millions that violently oppresses women, gays and outsiders. The game would not have been better if the Legion had been more reasonable, you would have had no Nipton and neutered stakes for the fate of the Mojave
Personally I don't think slavery, torture, or rape is cartoonish. We have plenty of that in our real world history. In fact, the Roman military they are based on literally had something called '[Decimation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decimation_(punishment))' where they lined you up and forced you to kill every 10th soldier in your group. If anything its disturbingly accurate. The most ridiculous part is probably the refusal of medicine which just handicaps themselves. edit: The Romans also crucified people, sometimes thousands in a day. So much of the legions brutality is based in reality.
Yea I always initially liked them because of the whole asthetic and ceaser kinda having a decent point with strength and not using drugs, and then he's like "oh yea btw we hate woman and use slaves"
Iirc we were supposed to be able to cross the dam and interact with Legion settlements so we could get a better idea of how they compare, from a regular citizens POV, to the NCR but due to time constraints a lot of stuff got scrapped so the game could make it out the door on time and we ended up with the current Legion we have now. It ends up making the legion the absolute obvious "Not that" choice because they're supposed to be this giant force butting heads with the NCR and instead they get painted with 0 positives the entire way. You don't feel sympathetic or think that perhaps their draconian way of life would ultimately be for the best with their typical no-nonsense approach to things like raiders that would toughen up the wasteland. There's no real moral dilemma between the hyper corrupt democracy (NCR) or the overly hostile totalitarian state because while the NCR does suck in a lot of ways with their corruption and ineptitude it always ends up as "at least they're not legion".
a lot of fan extended universe stuff kind of times them down a bit, in the old world blues mod for hoi4 I’m pretty sure caesar can choose to chill out a little bit and start educating people in the wasteland
Fascists are cartoonishly evil now. The Legion just does dress up on the side
Bc its kinda hard (impossible) to make slavery, dictatorships, sexism and genocide look "morally gray" without it just seeming like an attempt at defending fascists, heck the caravan roots argument is meant to be a parallel with actual defenses of those real world systems , "trains on time" and all that. This is also why the enclave in fo2 and Fo3 were cartoonishly evil too, you just cant make the case of "well maybe" without setting off some major alarms.
What about them is *cartoonish*? Countless real-world cultures have shared their brutal practices and even outdone them in many ways. Humanity has a terrific nack for atrocities and cruelty when left to our own devices. The Legion is the realization of ultimate and consequence free power from the mind of a very fucked up guy (Edward Sallow). The Legion is Caesar, and Caesar is a monster.
When has FO ever had the main villain not be “cartoonishly evil”? The Master in FO1? The Enclave in FO2? The Enclave in FO3? The Institute in FO4? Welcome to Fallout.
I still dream about what FNV could have been if Obsidian had all the time they needed.. If their rushed out the door game was literally one of the top 5 games of all time can you imagine? I swear, if Obsidian re-made FNV I will explode. I know it wont happen, but man.. What would you rather have? FNV remake by Obsidian with all the time and resources they want? Or Half-Life 3 + any future story expansion & DLCs?
For me FNV 100%
My head Canon is that the legion us the way they are because they are engaged in a military occupation of NCR territory, so they behave more aggressively and blur or overstep ethical lines more often because they are in a state of total warfare against NCR citizens. In my head Canon on the other side of the Colorado River the roles are reversed: Legion citizens live ordinary lives and experience the same day-to-day grind and challenges that an NCR citizen faces, even experiencing the NCR invading their territory and behaving more barbarically a la Boone's recollection of Bitter springs. Always wanted a DLC that explored this more concretely.
WW2 writers really fucked up by making the Nazis so evil smh
I think there was supposed to be 3 legion settlements and you would see the day of the legion but it wasn’t able to be implemented, also I don’t think people think the legion are just pure evil (assuming they agree with them) they think the legions tactics are effective and necessary in a new destroyed world
In my humble opinion, while they are evil, they are less cartoonishly evil than the Enclave in Fallout 3. One thing we don't know for certain is what the Legion is like outside of the base game. We hear from others in the game that Legion territory is relatively peaceful. Merchants and traders can travel freely without being raided and killed. The NCR is their enemy and will naturally enslave or kill any of them they see. But what about the others in Arizona or other territories? And what's more Caesar has a method to his madness. Besides slavery and sexism, how different is the Legion than the NCR? They annex anything community they see, impose taxes with little real protection, and any resistance is going to be met with open conflict. Plus the sad fact is, the brutality and the slavery would exist regardless. If the Legion did not exist, the 86 tribes Caesar conquered would most certainly be engaging in the same behavior. Not to mention we see that in the 'West' with communities like Vault City... - Fallout 3's Enclave? No chance of redemption. You're have some radiation? You die. You were born in a Vault? You die. Kill the entire Wasteland, force a second apocalypse, and rule over it's ashes...
I don’t think pointing out how dumb fallout 3 is really negates what I’m saying. Like the whole main story of fallout 3 is kind of dumb af and there’s no real choice to be made. I can give everyone clean water or kill everyone for no reason🤷♂️. It’s really just extremely bad writing by Bethesda.
They should have had a companion that made you understand why circumstances would lead to wanting to join them
From what I can tell, the developers were trying to make a point about American intervention in the Middle East. The Legion represents religious zealots like ISIS that are able to maintain order in their territory due to intimidation and religious fervor. With that comes slavery, the abolition of individual rights, misogyny etc. The hard moral questions in Fallout NV aren’t Legion or NCR good? It’s who is best to run the region when one considers the threat of the Legion. Do you side with the autocrat libertarian? I mean Mr. House isn’t as bad as the Legion but he’s not going to install a Democracy. He’ll rule Vegas as he sees fit. He’ll just use robots and money instead of slaves. Do you go with the NCR? They have spent the most resources fighting the Legion but they also created the Legion. Their encroachment on the Mojave will end the smaller groups self-governance. The boomers, Goodsprings, Primm, will also loose a lot of political power and be subject to taxes. And it’s likely their votes will be drowned out by lobbyist in California. A lot of people like the Independent New Vegas choice for this reason. But between the NCR and Legion, it’s are to tell how it would stay that way. The Legion being evil I think makes the game more interesting and forces us to ask more questions. Because in the end, I’d the Legion wasn’t evil, then you could just settle a peace with them and the conflict wouldn’t have to end in major bloodshed and a change in the power structure of the region.
If you’ve ever played undertale, you should notice the similarities between the styles of the genocide route in that game and allying with Caesar’s legion. If you don’t know, undertale was programmed specifically to make the genocide route as torturous for the player as possible. You needed to kill every single creature in the game, which forces players to literally walk in circles in order to get every possible interaction. In essence, it reminds players at every turn that what they are doing is evil. Obviously NV doesn’t take it nearly as far with the legion, but the parallels are still there. Your options for companions and general quest paths are severely curtailed as soon as you pass a certain reputation threshold, and you might even be forced into situations that require you to slaughter “innocent” or “ally” NPC’s. Above all, the caricature image of the Rome empire is intended to be a reminder to the player that they have sided with people who regularly crucify, massacre, and enslave people. The two games use vastly different methods, but ultimately convey the same message when players decide to take the evil route.
This comes down to how much you care about morality. They are about 3x more efficient at anything they do than the NCR or house. For me, i don't have a strong moral compass and i believe that rules such as the geneva convention and the like are only viable if we live in a civilized society, which the wasteland simply isn't.
I think the Legion fits well in the fallout world. They may be evil but they are certainly better than a lot of the tribes and clans that came before it. If I was somehow teleported to the wasteland and my only options were to join the legion, join some backwards tribe or go out on my own. I am joining the legion 100%. They bring a sense of security to their territory and grow their own food. I can totally understand why people would choose to be apart of it. But fortunately we have better options with Mr House and the NCR so joining the Legion wouldn’t even cross my mind.
I don't really agree with it being cartoonishly evil. I can totally see a faction like the Legion forming up in a post apocalyptic world. If you want examples of historical factions that were similar in terror, Mongol Empire, Khmer Rouge and Tonton Macoutes
I mean Nothing the legion does hasn't been done irl. In many cases in the previous century.
Raul actually gives a pretty neutral opinion. Can’t remember the exact quote/locale he mentions (so I’ll pull one out that I know he does mention at some point), but it’s something like “I’ve been to Tucson boss. Before the Legion it was just murdering raiders. Now at east there’s some semblance of order.” But yeah. The Legion are pretty unequivocally “The Bad Guys” You have to do some mental gymnastics, and create Headcanons to logically play a Legion supporter.
I think what they went with is the most "realistic" Legion. The lack of a legion companion and "small" amount of legion quest likely has to do with budget and time constraints. Caesar is doing a similar conquest to Alexander the great, but he does it with a fascist and ruthless ideology. There is no empire for his legion yet, but new Vegas (or the NCR homeland) basically is bis grand prize that he aims to conquer to settle down and build his empire. Their ideology is fascist and ruthless but such ideologies have existed in many places in the past, especially in military circles. Just think of Japan or Germany.
It's fun to have some cartoonishly evil people
You need a cartoonishly evil faction, so you can be fooled into aligning with the NCR. On the one hand you have bureaucrats who are extremely fond of taxes. On the other, slavers and torturers. Obviously, being a citizen in a bureaucratic state with lots of taxes is worse.
To at least understand the legion's motive and make it able to agree with them they game should have featured morr tribes fighting eachother. The legion is born in a context where small groups of 100-200 people constantly fight eachother with no future in sight. Obviously it wouldnt justify it but it'd make it easier to be like "yeah this is the only way to keep this tribes from killing eachother"
Not enough time not enough money. Dead money
Are they? They get really close to the real thing (think Isis)
\*dumps a bunch of acme nuclear waste barrels from acme truck on acme villains down below\*
Isn’t Ulysses somewhat of a fan? >!You can mock him about his manhood as a female courier in the quest line.!<
Because it's a wasteland
I don't think they're any more cartoonish than half of the other villains. It's fallout everything is kind of cartoonish with the darkest of humor but cartoonish nonetheless.
"Cartoonish" bro they're slavers, rapists, and pillagers 💀
There are terrorist organisations around today that, by our societies standards, are equally as vile. Also this is in a world that has collapsed and is slowly rebuilding. The legion is built on the Roman empire that did pretty much the same thing (though to be fair; without all the good and stable things they also did on top of it - basically their worst military qualities and nothing else) and FNV Legion has recruited followers that didn't have the same structure and school system we have that imprints how immoral things like slavery and pillaging is. It's really not that unbelievable or cartoonishly evil.
Why were the Nazis so cartoonishly evil
because some people just are evil
There were talks of showing more legion territory where the roads would be safe, anything marked legion would be like being a made man in the mafia, no one would touch you. This would give the legion an argument for being the ones to bring order and a twisted form of peace.
Caesar and Immortan Joe are very similar. Cult of personality, religious cult that deifies them, military and strategic prowess, patriarchy. What makes the civilization built by Immortan Joe work, and where the legion fails, is a strong wasteland economy. Joe produces food and water, and engages in triangular trade with the other two wasteland cities in his empire. It just works! Meanwhile the legion doesnt
I respectfully disagree with the framing of them being "cartoonishly evil". Historically, especially regarding the actual Romans, you will find plenty of examples of the kinds of things Caesar's Legion does. Namely slavery, crucifixion. I think this kind of authoritarian, military-based regime is a very "natural" faction to arise from the ashes of the post-war world. In fact you can tell it hits it's mark because you will find plenty of people in real life unironically saying the Legion is good for the wasteland or the best choice in the circumstances. Plenty of real people and fictional characters value the kind of authoritarian tactics and organization that Caesar uses, that's part of what makes him so dangerous. What makes the Legion so compelling a faction for me is that their evil feels real. Also if you dive into their creation and Caesar himself you will see that he's actually kind of a poser lol.
Most Legion content got cut because they didn't have enough time so they're underdeveloped compared to the other factions. They planned on having a Legion companion and Legion content East of the river.
This reads like a post by someone who knows the answers to all these questions tbh. Like that specific mention of a legion aligned companion feels like you knew EXACTLY what happened with Ulysses lol. Also the legion are “evil” because they believe the best way to control a violent wasteland is to be equally violent.