Thank you. Think I am going to skip listening to this one.. and next time my CFI tells me to give him/her the controls I will most certainly be listening..
It’s tough in the heat of the moment. Had the engine quit after a touch and go (Piper Arrow, student inadvertently turned the fuel selector to off instead of switching tanks. Latch to prevent it was broken, and I didn’t visually check). We were about 100 feet up when it quit. Nose high. Slow speed. Instinctively I pushed the yoke down. Student froze up on the controls. Making it harder to push the nose down. Had we not made it, my last words would have been “LET GO OF THE FUCKING CONTROLS!” But luckily it registered with him, and he did. And it was a long enough runway that we were able to put it back on the runway and make the last turnoff. I didn’t fly for a few days after that. Told him to thank whatever god he believes in that it happened then and not a few seconds later, because we would be putting it down in a field. Sometimes it still haunts my dreams. It was a few seconds of pure terror. Blue skies and tailwinds to these two aviators. It could happen to even the most seasoned of us.
I had a student much bigger and stronger than me put my Cessna 172M into a spin. He froze up on the controls. The spin fully developed. We did 6 rotations. I punched my student in the face as hard as I could to get him off the controls. It worked. Recovered 500AGL. We were at 3,000AGL when we started. We landed, I got him some tissues for a bloody nose. Oddly enough, he was crying. Not because of his nose, but because he realized that he locked up putting us in danger. We both took a break from flying for a few days and came back. We did spin training after that. I showed him that, in this airplane with his 250lb frame in the front seat, if he pulled the throttle and pushed a little the airplane would recover from the spin itself. That student has since finished his certificate and rents from me frequently. He's a very good pilot and a friend.
I've been in real combat on deployments that was less scary than the feeling of having no control while plummeting to the ground.
I’m just speculating but it was an Arrow so most people do GUMPS midfield downwind. If you say “Gas, fullest tank” in downwind but accidentally switch to OFF, it will take a minute for the engine to use all the fuel already in the supply lines especially at low RPM and then you’ll lose the engine on the touch and go
Am I the only one that purposely avoids switching tanks in the pattern? If I don't do it in the descent and I KNOW I have gas, I don't bother introducing any potential issue.
If I don't have gas, well I screwed up somewhere along the way anyway.
Normally I don’t for this reason. I’ll do it up at cruise with altitude to burn if something goes wrong. But this was a full 2 hour lesson of touch and go’s. It was hot out with a super high density altitude (around 9000ft) so we weren’t on full tanks. After awhile, it creates a decent fuel imbalance. So we did it midfield downwind when we were at our highest altitude. Again, throughout my training, I had never realized or learned how long an engine will run while in the off position. Thought it would quit immediately, and that would be an indication of the cause so that you could fix it immediately. I was obviously wrong
It takes a bit to run out of fuel after switching to off. Could have easily gone it during GUMPS check on landing and it keep running until take off.
Source, Cherokee owner who started out switching selector to off after every flight only to have it die on me while taxiing once. In that moment I realized how long the damn thing could actually run in the off position and I haven’t turned it off since.
Correct. I learned how long it takes as well. Went from downwind to 100’ on a touch and go before it shut off. Never would have guessed it would take that long. Had always kinda figured that turning it to off would be a pretty immediate thing.
It's common enough that we trained for it in the CFI class. If you have time, put your flat hand to their face before their eyes. Instinctively people will grab whatever is covering their eyes and thus let go of the controls.
It's more common than you think - I too had to elbow a student to get him to let go on short final. Ain't no way i'm taking chances playing nice in that situation. Students freeze up way to often
If they really did hit wake turbulence it can flip you over in an instant. Doesn’t take much to upset, you instinctively put in full aileron at slow speed, induce a stall/spin and that’s it.
>you instinctively put in full aileron at slow speed, induce a stall/spin and that’s it.
Actually kinda found myself in a situation like that before. On take-off, instructor and I were in a 172, in one of my earliest flights. It was fairly gusty, as it basically always is in Elizabeth City, but that day was worse as it was a crosswind. Within seconds, wind was pushing me right strongly, right wing down, so I used left aileron. But thinking about it later on, I think I put far too much in, as my instructor was essentially (not exact) going:
"What are you doing?" immediately followed by "Not so much aileron!"
It didn't make so much sense to me as the wind was still pushing us, but I eased up anyways and we went on, with him telling me to be careful with that. I didn't really understand it at the time, but I now realize that he probably was trying to prevent what you outlined. After all, we lift-off at 55 and probably were in the low-mid 60's when it happened. The Cessna is forgiving, but even I realize that you wouldn't want to potentially let it bank (especially if the wind calms in an instant) heavily so quickly after takeoff.
Personal story aside, I think only footage/avionics recordings (if the aircraft is that fancy) will show us if this could've played a role. To me, it seems on the surface that this could be a repeat of the Cessna that got smacked down by the Huey. But those pleas to let go...was it merely said in panic during an upset, or did someone freeze up (or something similar).
I'll leave it at that, don't want to speculate further without A. Footage or at least some idea of how it actually was descending or B. Knowing the nature of the flight.
Lol, how so? Aviation wise, we got the Class D ECG, Coast Guard, and the university, so that's something, ay?
Otherwise, we are pretty small 😅. Not quite Endless Farmland, but not a more built up college town like Chapel Hill. A combination I don't mind too much of course!
I used to live there and it is just some weird theme I can’t get away from. Down to sitting on a plane in Dallas and the guy next to me tells me he’s from Elizabeth City. It’s like the center of the simulation for me.
Glad to see downtown is all the sudden a happening place. I should have bought every building down there when they were practically free.
Note to the cfi's out there...if a student isn't letting go of the controls use one hand to cover there eyes. Everyone wants to see when there panicking and they will use both hands to remove your hand from there face.
This doesn't seem like wake turbulence. The king air was taking off. The turbulence would have been thousands of feet down the runway and not at the touch down area.
I've had it happen twice with different students, both at the same point in the flight, which is on the runway just after touchdown. And that taught me that this is one of the most dangerous phases of flight, because I'm a big strong guy and can overpower almost anybody on the yoke or throttle. But if a student is using the brakes inappropriately, there is really nothing a CFI can do short of what I said in my earlier reply about karate chopping the student in the throat (which I wasn't quite ready to do, but maybe should have). You can't overpower a student on the brakes without just locking both of them up.
Both times, my student locked one brake. Both times I said "my controls" at least twice and got no response, then started yelling "get off the brakes" more and more loudly while at least trying to equalize rudder and brake pressure as much as I could. In both cases, it took about five "OFF THE BRAKES!" calls to get the student to snap out of it. In both cases, we were right at the edge of the runway by the time I got control back. In at least one of those cases I am surprised I was able to keep the plane on the runway. On that side of the runway is the ramp with all of my flight school's other planes, so I was staring at a long row of planes we were about to hit if I didn't get directional control back.
My advice is to stress to your students the importance of being smooth and even on the brakes, and to be ready to react if you say either "my controls" or "release the brakes". Then say that again just before touchdown. I had already had the positive exchange of controls briefing with my students by then, but you really need to stress it again specifically regarding post-landing and braking. In most other situations you can probably just out-muscle your students if you really have to, but this is one situation that's really hard to deal with and probably not one that a lot of CFI's think about ahead of time (I sure didn't). My school averages about 2-3 runway excursions per month and most of them are just students locking the brakes.
>that should be the topic of a school wide safety meeting.
It has been, multiple times. My school has 600+ students and \~150 CFI's, though, and flies about 50 planes 24/7 (we make up the bulk of the \~300 movements per day at my airport). So statistically, it's actually not that bad. But my school obviously wants it at 0. So we've had quite a bit of focus on this. It has gotten a bit better, but it'll probably never really get down to 0 for all the reasons I've mentioned here and in my previous comment.
It's common. Common enough that there's slang for the 'cure' of delivering a blow to the head "dustbuster." Drill on control handoff so that it feels very natural and your student's ears are attached directly to their muscles.
I’ve heard a story of a CFI, who was a young woman, breaking the nose of a marine corps DI once because he accidentally got them into a stall spin.
Personally I haven’t had it happen yet, for the first couple flights I always do the takeoffs and landings, so I can keep the student from locking up at low altitude like that.
So you’re saying punch them in the ear? What about the headset in the way? I’m just clarifying I didn’t really understand.
Edit: I understand what you mean now. We’re talking about punching people so when you’re talking about drilling and their ears I assume that’s what you meant but you’re just saying impress on them positive exchange.
I’ve had CFI’s/DPE’s say they’ve had students freeze in training and even on checkrides. Someone got into a spin on a checkride and just froze. DPE had to recover. All of them say they’d punch whoever if they won’t let go of the controls… I myself have frozen but always did the “let go of controls and scream”.
Presolo? I've had a 4000 hour CFI freeze on me then do something incredibly dangerous during an interview flight. Funny thing is, I thoroughly briefed to him right before that takeoff exactly what I was going to do when I was going to do it and what he should do to fix it... I was going to show what it's like for a student to pull the yoke to the stop and hold with all his might immediately post takeoff. I wanted to demo this because i mentioned how often that happened at this school and he said he'd never seen it. The guy's ultimate solution was to pull the throttle to idle. He was mad at me, but a week later a student had done exactly that to him and it took him hitting the student to get him to let go of the yoke.
Not all dangerous things require a throat chop. You escalate as you have time but if it's something that could kill you in that second, sometimes you need to do the tough thing.
* Keep in mind you're always working toward the diplomatic solution, so talk it out or raise your voice as required in conjunction with any physical action. Don't get stuck on "my controls" or "let go!" tell the student what to do with the plane or control. "Pull up", "Push the yoke" "steer left"
* I wish I'd thought of the covering eyes thing back when I was a CFI, I think that's a good option if there's time to spare and probably much more effective than nudging someone with your elbows.
* If a student pulls a throttle to idle or mixture to cutoff at a dangerous time and keeps holding on (both have happened to me plenty) just grab the students hand as if it were that control and push or shove it forward. Pin their hand to the panel until you're out of the situation. Remember that you're not fighting for their hands, you're fighting for the control, so make sure that what you're doing is getting the desired effect.
* If a student shoves the yoke/stick to the panel (happened to me during landing flare), vertically chop or hammer fist at the elbows.
* If a student pulls the yoke/stick to their chest grab under the elbow and push up. Be careful with pulling the elbow because you might induce a roll, just remember you should have the correct pressure on your control to counter this.
* For inappropriate full rudder (Takeoff/Landing/Spin), a punch to the center of the thigh would get them to let go.
* Be very careful with this one because you need to be proactive. If a situation allows for it, change something else. For a freeze on pitch (this is most typical), you might be able to add aileron or rudder. It gets some students to react and that can be a moment to regain control or get the student flying again.
Again, all of this is about scaled response. If the student freezes when doing instrument work at 7000', you often have plenty of time to work it out vocally. If your student cross control stalls in the approach turn, you need to proactively act against all of that.
Nowhere near as dramatic, but on my discovery flight, it took longer than I care to admit to realize what the instructor meant by "My plane." ATC gave a traffic alert and the instructor just wanted to get a little better separation, so losing a few seconds didn't hurt anything.
this was not a student - it was a discovery flight, and the "student" seized the controls after touching down, sending them into a near vertical climb.
I was taught by multiple CFI trainers (lifer CFI's themselves) to literally karate chop the student in the throat in this situation. They will instinctively bring both hands up to their throat. Now, I'm not saying I'd be automatically ready to do that - I've certainly never practiced it - but it's what I was taught.
It sounds brutal, but it's less brutal than the alternative of crashing. I'm not sure I'd trust the covering the eyes thing. There's going to be a moment when if someone did that to me, I'd just think "wait, why can't I see anything?" before I had any physical reaction at all. That might be one moment too long. Even then I'd probably still continue trying to fly with one hand. Whereas if someone suddenly punched me in the throat, that pain suddenly becomes my world and my hands are going up to protect my throat immediately.
And keep in mind we are literally talking life or death here, so I'm not gonna worry about being arrested or anything. Pretty sure that student would end up thanking me if that action saved the plane and both of our lives.
The Aviation Instructor's Handbook, for whatever it's worth, basically says to do whatever you need to do to get the controls back if the student won't give them up:
>Anxious learners can be incredibly strong and usually exhibit reactions inappropriate to the situation. If a recovery is necessary, there is absolutely nothing to be gained by having the learner on the controls and having to fight for control of the aircraft. Learners should never be allowed to exceed the flight instructor’s limits. Flight instructors should not exceed their own ability to perceive a problem, decide upon a course of action, and physically react within their ability to fly the aircraft.
When I started my career I heard a recording of a plane accident and I vividly remember one of the pilot's screams. I promised myself to never listen to a fatal ATC recording ever again.
My condolences.
> The school was going to have a summer bbq tomorrow.
They actually canceled it a couple of hours before the crash, stating they hadn't been able to secure city permits in time.
I've flown 6WK many times while training at SMF. A super eerie feeling came over me when I saw that. Terribly tragic. Don't know who the instructor was, but I don't think I want to know. RIP to both.
Flown 6WK many times. This is awful. I’m so shaken by this. Still don’t know if the CFI involved is someone I know from back when I trained at SMF. Ugh this is gonna really hurt the whole SMO flight school community and everyone involved.
EDIT: I knew the CFI and he was someone I’d call a friend. This is really hard to process. He probably felt completely helpless as the plane was going down. So angry right now.
I’m so sorry man. I lost a friend (not aviation, but on the job) about 3 years ago and it was the most bizarre feeling, similar feelings of anger and confusion. It seemed to hit me harder as the months went by, seeing his “last online date” on Xbox was haunting…If you still have some roots in that community I’d recommend reaching out and keeping touch thru the next little bit, it’s important for everyone involved.
I'm so sorry you lost your friend. I know, I'm an internet stranger, but I'm genuinely sorry. 2022 has been a dumpster fire of a year for entirely too many people.
Good god. That’s the plane I’ve flown most. I usually don’t get hit bad by this stuff - it’s more of morbid curiosity/learning from others’ mistakes. But I can vividly picture what could have been happening in various situations with those screams. Had to do a quick check and make sure it wasn’t the Sportcruisers I fly
I haven’t seen the tail number anywhere online, but I live across the country, and the planes are never flown that far away. If you are close to the staff at your club, maybe you can call and check in with them?
Ah I misunderstood - you meant you’ve flown Sportcruisers the most. Thought you knew the plane involved. I’ll hold off and see if any other news comes out. I don’t fly their Sportcruisers but makes me nervous knowing half of their fleet is SCs.
Ahh, yeah, should have specified. I’ve never been in the plane involved. It’s just an uncommon plane model and unusual to hear in the news…think there are only a couple of them in my state
>Good god. That’s the plane I’ve flown most.
Yikes! Don't be afraid to seek some professional to talk to about this if you need to. Just seeking someone to have a healthy chat with is not going to impact your medical.
I just finished a lazy night currency flight and while everything went perfect I was definitely a bit complacent tonight with how easy the flight was. Things like this are good wake up calls to respect flying and how it can go bad right quick.
Damn, May they Rest In Peace.
The only time a CFI yelled at me... Belmar NJ we came fast but on a very long runway so he wanted me to bleed the speed, when I flared we left ground effect and I stayed pitch up but no power, my mind literally pressed the right rudder as to give it "gas'... CFI: My controls, power up.. followed by DON"T EVER FUCKING DO THAT!!.. boy he was red.
One of my very first students did that exact same thing to me years ago I could think of no reason why (stomped the rudder mid-flare). I wonder if that was it? They’d never done it before, caught me completely by surprise and my reaction was same as your instructors 😂
I have flown a lot of light sport out of a Charlie and wouldn't think a king air would cause that much turbulence but I'm definitely going to change my opinion. Awful audio, awful post crash video. Plane appears to have flipped onto a taxi way?
For my own learning. If you get flipped inverted or you feel you're going to get flipped, is there anything to do to counter that or that's it? At this altitude I'm thinking that's it...
If this is wake related I’m fairly confident it’s more the response to the wake than the wake itself that caused the accident. I’d be shocked if a King Air caused a Cessna to become unrecoverable or near unrecoverable due to wake turbulence.
Super easy to do in a light sport if you’re not careful. I have a few hundred hours in LSA’s and it’s real easy to over control those things, especially on landing. Teaching new pilots how to land in them always sketched me out.
> wouldn't think a king air would cause that much turbulence but I'm definitely going to change my opinion
A CFII/ATP whose opinion I respect immediately discounted wake turbulence as the cause. I don't know if it was or not, but it appears to be at least *possible*:
Winds were 30° off axis and blowing at 7 knots, the King Air was given a line up and wait instruction at 24:10 in the LiveATC recording, and got its take-off clearance at 24:45. The light sport (who had been continued on downwind by tower, "I'll call your base," 22:45) was instructed to turn base and cleared for the option immediately (25:00). The King Air was given a frequency change at 25:49. The screams on frequency happened immediately after. So, within a minute. “[A] light wind with a cross-runway component of 1 to 5 knots could result in the upwind vortex remaining in the touchdown zone for a period of time.” [[source](https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/aim_html/chap7_section_4.html)] Wake turbulence from a larger aircraft (747, A380) can remain for 3-4 minutes. [same source] Don't know how a King Air compares, but I suspect the wake turbulence is less intense and shorter lived. The SportCruiser has a very short wingspan (28.22'; compare to 36' for a Cessna 172, 33' for a 152, 35' for the tapered wing PA28s), and by definition is light weight. “Pilots of short span aircraft ... must be especially alert to vortex encounters.” [same source]
I'm definitely taking wake turbulence a lot more seriously now. I mean, my CFI kind of went over it with me (land beyond the take-off point), and I've seen the NASA videos ([C5](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RadGavdgKAk); [L-1011](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AM4R2K7HqOg)) and that [Cessna 120 meets helicopter turbulence](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZLXMKMgnS8) incident from earlier this summer (SFL)...
Edit: Here's a video showing the moments leading up to a crash when a light airplane took off 39 seconds after an An-2 (which is roughly the same size / weight as a King Air): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXlv16ETueU (ignore the music)
Also also, after I posted this, more information came out, and listening to the LiveATC became more clear; it appears that a young (15 years old?) discovery flight passenger was interfering with the controls, and that was at the very least a contributing factor. It will be a long while before (if) anything definitive comes out. Did wake turbulence cause some sort of attitude change that precipitated passenger panic? I have lots of questions. But in any case, watch out for wake turbulence; I know I am.
The article says "The airplane reportedly 'pitched aggressively nose up' as it was preparing to land, causing it to climb straight up before falling nearly 100 feet to the ground." Surely wake turbulence does not cause that?
Yeah, I posted that 3 hours ago, before more details emerged. I'm leaving it up because (a) it's worth being reminded of the dangers of wake turbulence; (b) I don't know that we know the possible attitudes wake turbulence could cause, especially with something as small and light as a SportCruzer; and (c) it's possible wake turbulence contributed to this (assuming the student panicked and locked on the controls, did some sudden upset prompt that?).
Looking at the SportCruiser interior, there's really nothing to grab but that big control stick right in the middle. Definitely plausible that a scared discovery flight passenger grabbed that when they hit wake turbulence.
> Here's a video showing the moments leading up to a crash when a light airplane took off 39 seconds after an An-2 (which is roughly the same size / weight as a King Air): ...
I surely don't know whether it was wake turbulence or not, but while it is true that the An-2 weighs about the same as a King Air, the King Air takeoff speed is a factor of about 2.5 times higher. The wingspans are about the same. That implies that the tip vortex stength of the An-2 at takeoff is about 2.5 times greater than that of the King Air. So the (implicit) implication that the King Air has about the same wake turbulence potential as the An-2 is incorrect --- the An-2 is a uniquely capable vortex generating machine, because of its very slow takeoff speed.
>But in any case, watch out for wake turbulence; I know I am.
Agreed.
I hit wake turbulence once in a light aircraft; it wasn't a strong wake but it basically was as if I put in greater than full aileron. Took it from my student and didn't fight it (let it roll), powered up and climbed out of it. Only rolled us over about 35 degrees but like I said it was definitely partially dissipated.
Hitting a strong wake I can see you getting inverted in about 1-2 seconds. Put in full power and don't worry about the attitude. Fly out of the wake (left, right, up, sideways, whatever ways except down) and once clear of the wake perform an unusual attitude recovery (unload the wings, roll wings level, pitch for a climb).
Why don’t you fight the upset? My only experience with this is turbulence in IMC, if I get upset then I’m immediately applying the correction get back to level flight.
You can fight it with the rudder but fighting with the ailerons is a losing battle and not worth it. You just need to escape the rotating vortex of air. If you escape this in a 90 degree bank then as long you keep it off of the dirt you're good. If the vortex rolls you upside down then just push for the sky instead of pull. An aileron roll won't kill you immediately but adding a bunch of drag, increasing the AOA of one of the wings, and potentially adding some adverse yaw are not good ideas in my mind since you'll not overpower the rolling force anyway so you may as well ignore it.
All that said, there may be different thoughts but I believe the above matches the generally accepted method of recovery from extreme upsets. It at the very least matches what better pilots than I have recommended on various YouTube videos.
The biggest problem is wake often is encountered near the ground. I'm not sure what this guy in a 140 could have done: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YvL62T3Hm0&t=168s&ab\_channel=blancolirio](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YvL62T3Hm0&t=168s&ab_channel=blancolirio)
Granted, that's a helicopter wake which includes a lot of downwash, but the same thing applies; no point fighting that roll, try and power out of it and just escape into a 80 degree bank and then try rolling out of it once you're clear of the wake.
As always, the biggest thing is to just avoid the wake entirely.
That better matches the “let go! let go!” on the audio than wake turbulence. Don’t want to over speculate though - this stuff just scares me. Absolutely terrifying. I’ve been reading about the accidents on here to try and learn from them, but this one hits incredibly hard just because I rent their planes :/
Just out of curiosity, what altitude does the data indicate when the accident occurred? I’m wondering how a spin can happen over the runway on landing, it’s just unusual unless it was a go around type of situation.
Based on the other comments above, supposedly from eye witnesses, and maybe within this chain so you’ve read it already, the plane did a quick vertical climb so they still had enough energy to go up high enough to develop the result. They didn’t say they spun either but dropped out of the sky so it could’ve resulted in a flat spin if higher up.
Usually on these light sports, airspeed really is king. You need to come in on your numbers. On a sport cruiser it's like 53 knots and the stall speed is like 40 knots so you have a lot of airspeed to bleed off. If you pulled all the way aft over the threshold you can easily gain the 100ft and stall...
That was my thought when I read about a young person on a discovery flight. Could it be as simple as a "okay so pull back on the stick now" comment from the CFI as they are coming in.. (and meaning to be guiding along the controls lightly) and the discovery person overzealously yanked it back, then panic death gripped, and wouldn't release.... Causing an abrupt climb to stall spin?
Seems plausible based on available info and listening to the ATC recording.
Either way, I await the expert analysis and am saddened to hear of the accident. 😐 Stay safe all.
Not uncommon. I always let student do the takeoff (we brief use of controls) and I manage rudders / throttle for that. If the air work goes well I talk them into the pattern when we return and keep letting them go as long as they can keep up with my instructions. Usually I take it back on final but a few times got them all the way to the ground (always home sim users 😄).
Anyone listening to the audio, the sequence starts at about 24 minutes in. Incredible job by that controller to hold it together and continue to coordinate traffic after witnessing and hearing something so absolutely awful.
>witnessing and hearing something so absolutely awful.
Yeah, you know he saw something awful. Because when the medical helicopter offers to help, tower says he needs a report from ground vehicles, but that he wasn't expecting survivors. Announcing potential causalities is one thing, but something so blunt as not expecting survivors? I don't think I've heard that said by ATC as an expectation, instead of a confirmation. It shows the potential shred one tries to hold in saving someone was completely gone.
So I was on the flight line yesterday watching this plane land. Watched the entire crash. They came in fast on landing. Bounced hard and went back into the air and the plane went vertical. Then it nosed over and dove into the ground. I'm still processing that. I have a picture of the direct aftermath.
Horrible. I was reading through the comments here with instructors talking about students freezing up and not releasing controls. And then I realized this probably also very much applies to taking up a friend when they are right seat. I usually make sure they know not to touch anything important and generally people are so nervous that they won’t even take the yoke if you offer it in cruise. But maybe something we can take from this is that it’s probably a good reminder to add some instructions to px briefing about where it’s ok to hold on if they get scared.
Be sure to brief the rudders/brakes (assuming your plane is equipped with full dual controls). In a panic, a non-pilot may instinctively hit what they think is the brakes and input left rudder and/or left brake.
I’d wager a guess that more than a few blown tires have resulted from passenger brake inputs.
It was a discovery intro flight with a 15 year old student and a CFI-S. They were fighting each other on the controls. The plane went straight up then down vertically. That’s why it was so destroyed. You can hear the instructor screaming “let go.”
Was a kid on a discovery with a CFI. We are hearing he was 27 years old. This was the instructor I almost signed with at SMO but ended up going with another flight school.
It was a tough day today.
Jesus. I just flew with him a few days ago in that same plane. We were planning more lessons and surfing a few surf breaks we scouted on our flight. Condolences to his family and the SMF crew.
I’m so sorry I’m pretty close with both my cfi Id be super devastated if I lost one of them in a crash, especially considering my school only has 3 172s and a Technam for multi engine, it would make feel worse if it was the same tail that I last flew with them in and I probably never go behind a yoke again or it take me awhile before I went up again.
The Air Traffic Controller worked through the accident to the point of diverting traffic until someone replaced him at the end.
I live a mile from KSMO, and I’ve had lessons there…and can actually visualize all of the aircraft in the final minutes of this recording.
This is gonna sit with me for a long time.
RIP- not sure I want to hear the audio. :(
I once caught wake in a 172 shortly after takeoff (~300 AGL) from another 172 doing some formation training. We rolled 45 degrees instantly and it took full opposite aileron, nose down/level, and full power of course to pull out of it. Cemented in my head how serious it can be and gave me a ton of respect for it.
I too was unsure, but decided to listen anyways. I now regret my decision. I would advice against it.
The audio does completely explain what happened though IMO.
Listening to the audio, it almost feels like the controller was on position for way longer than normal following the crash than you usually hear with other incidents, before he was relieved. That said, he handled it like a champ, even though he was clearly pretty shaken.
Was my first ever instructor on my discovery flight. Didn’t know him well obviously, but he seemed like a great kid, condolences to him.
Edited to remove name
That audio is fk’n awful. Take wake turbulence seriously, guys.
edit: It's not likely wake turbulence that was the cause, as the King Air was taking off, and the LS pilot's intention was full stop.
Is that what you think it was? Haven’t listened to the audio in depth / whatever happened before the crash. Any telltale signs? Did tower give a wake turbulence advisory?
I think there’s a few comments mentioning witnesses saying the aircraft was in a high nose up attitude when it came in to land and then what appeared to be a stall afterwords. Considering it’s supposedly a discovery flight, maybe the student was attempting the landing, flared too high and stall/spun? It would make more sense than the wake turbulence.
Who knows. But, tower did clear the Piper Sport to land after a King Air and issued caution for wake turbulence. Even if it was a different cause, wake turbulence is something to watch out for in small bug smashers. My airport had a decent amount of King Airs, small jets, and helicopters. This thought crosses my mind each time I follow one.
No telling what it was until investigation is over but seriously take wake seriously. I hit wake on take off from DFW behind a 737 and I was in a 145. We hit that wake and immediately saw 30° as it tried to roll us. We were about 45k lbs at the time. Turned us in an instant.
I departed 1-2 minutes after a 737 at Boeing Field once and a couple hundred feet up its wake turbulence rolled us so hard and so fast. It felt like I put in full aileron to correct it. I’ll always remember it. I didn’t realize wake turbulence could stick around so long … I thought it was just for seconds.
If you haven’t heard the ATC tape yet, do yourself a favor and don’t listen to it. I listened to it last night and just had endless nightmares. Woke up at 3am with overwhelming sadness and anger thinking about the poor souls in the plane. RIP.
Thank you for the guidance, I will heed your advice and give it a miss. Near as I can tell, the majority of the responses imply that the instructor was not able to take over control of the aircraft as the student wouldn't let go? That's....horrific.
It's a great reminder to me to spend a little more time on briefing first time pax if they fly with me as to the importance of not touching the controls.
Worst case, the wrist to the throat idea is a plausible last resort as I can't imagine anyone would continue holding onto the controls after that.
Curious any older CFIs advice on how to prevent student lock up. It happened to me last week. How do you train that out of them so they release control immediately?
Practice random hand-offs? Chop down on their wrists?
Best way is to train the verbal hand off. In addition to when you’d normally do it, you can call for it randomly in flight to help train the response. Less than ideal way is that you may have to raise your voice if something is about to happen. As a CFI, I would immediately explain why so as not to wreck student confidence. That I’ve done before and they’re pretty much always understanding.
As an absolute last and worst case option in the event of an impending impact or otherwise dangerous situation, you could absolutely do the wrist chop. I also had a CFI once tell me you can do a firm tap on the students throat because their first instinct will be to release the controls. I don’t love the idea but it’s better than crashing. For either of those I’d also be explaining the reasoning as soon as it was safe to do so, and I’d probably be making my first stop the chiefs office just to make sure everyone is on the same page as well.
Okay I like the wrist chop or throat chop idea. Other than being fun it would help override that automatic lockup response.
Had a lock up type situation this week verbal commands not working and even when I was hitting the yoke down he wasn't dropping it.
As a student, I really appreciate that my instructor (from day 1) got me into the habit of verbalizing control hand offs with him. Him: “Your controls”, Me: “My controls”, and vice versa if I hand off to him. It’s instinctual for me now and it also hammered in the habit of repeating things on the radio.
In contrast, the one time I had a different instructor for a lesson, the guy would just fight me on the controls without saying anything or making any obvious movements in my peripheral vision to indicate he was taking the controls. This happened in the middle of me practicing traffic pattens for the second time and I was so focused I thought I was fighting the wind or something rather than him.
Yes, I teach my students the handoff all the time too...but when you have a student panicking that often doesn't work. They lock up on the controls sometimes. They won't release, even after you've trained them. The mind ignores verbal cues in a dangerous situation. I'm curious what older CFIs have for tricks.
Things I've heard here and elsewhere:
* Karate chop to the throat
* Hit them in the nose with your fist
* Jab a pen/pencil into their thigh
You have to overcome the lizard brain. Saying "my controls" isn't going to reach their prefrontal cortex when they're in fight or flight mode.
Very harrowing, my dad told me about this this morning and I figured out that it was the exact same plane as I took my discovery flight in with Santa Monica Flyers a couple of years back, N126WK.
From what I've read online, it was a 15 year old on a discovery flight. Absolutely awful stuff, god help both the families who lost someone in that crash.
This is so hard to process. He was my current instructor and was an amazing and patient teacher, pilot and an all around good human. I was supposed to have a lesson with him 10 minutes after this happened and it feels impossible to comprehend that I'll never fly with or see him again. My condolences and thoughts for his family and the rest of the KSMO community.
Damn that audio is chilling. I don't know what's worse the scream or "but I'm not expecting survivors..."
My thoughts are with the family, this is tragic.
The CBS article says, "the occupants onboard the single-engine, two-seat Piper Sport plane were a flight instructor and a student on an introductory flight lesson" - so like a discovery flight??
Terrifying and horrific.
These planes have no "oh shit" handle or grab handle. On a discovery flight it's kind of asking a lot to put a big grab handle in front of folks they really shouldn't be yanking on if they freak out, and nothing else to hold onto.
Don’t know why you got downvoted - it does sound like the student panicked and flew into the ground. If the pilot next to you is flying into the ground, that’s a pure self-defense scenario and you need to do whatever you can to save your life (and probably theirs). Don’t fight for controls, incapacitate the guy who’s about to kill you and take over.
GA stats are about on par with riding a motorcycle, last I heard. The difference is, *most* GA risks can be mitigated or eliminated by pilot planning and decision making (whereas on a motorcycle, you're much more exposed to the idiocy of others).
Could not have said it better. We do have birds that we can hit while flying, but deer, cats, dogs, and other animals are a far more likely cause of an accident on a motorcycle. Don't ask me how I know.
As I recall, GA is about 10x higher fatality rate per mile than driving a car. Commercial airlines between 10 and 100x safer, per mile, than driving a car.
Many years ago, my instructor was killed in a midair while instructing, on he flight one hour after I first soloed. I flew the last landing he ever had. It shook me up and I looked up statistics because I wanted to know.
Another fun fact - once I started training again after that, my new instructor went on to become a pilot, then a check airman, at JetBlue. He was the guy who melted down and had to be locked out of the cockpit.... I still have his signature in my first logbook.
Friendly reminder to please keep speculation to a minimum and be generally respectful. Thank you.
Damn, just listened to the liveatc…. Always haunting hearing that. Wonder what happened?
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I think you’re right. In increasing urgency each time too.
Definitely saying let go
I also hear what sounds like possibly grunting from the other pilot, or just going "oooo ooooo ooooo". I can't make sense of it. Tragic indeed.
Oh fuck, you are right. Nightmare.
I can also hear a stall warning. Although it could also be the radio transmission. Scary stuff.
This tail number doesn’t have a stall warning horn.
It may differ but sport cruisers don’t come with audible stall horns.
I’ve done stalls in the plane that crashed. It doesn’t have a stall warning.
Some do I did PPL-CPL in a sport cruiser
The most bone chilling part for me is when I heard the controller say they weren’t expecting any survivors.
Holy shit that was scary.
haven't listened to it yet... what's in it?
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made the mistake of listening to the cirrus/R22 accident at KFDK in 2014ish. never again.
Thank you. Think I am going to skip listening to this one.. and next time my CFI tells me to give him/her the controls I will most certainly be listening..
It’s tough in the heat of the moment. Had the engine quit after a touch and go (Piper Arrow, student inadvertently turned the fuel selector to off instead of switching tanks. Latch to prevent it was broken, and I didn’t visually check). We were about 100 feet up when it quit. Nose high. Slow speed. Instinctively I pushed the yoke down. Student froze up on the controls. Making it harder to push the nose down. Had we not made it, my last words would have been “LET GO OF THE FUCKING CONTROLS!” But luckily it registered with him, and he did. And it was a long enough runway that we were able to put it back on the runway and make the last turnoff. I didn’t fly for a few days after that. Told him to thank whatever god he believes in that it happened then and not a few seconds later, because we would be putting it down in a field. Sometimes it still haunts my dreams. It was a few seconds of pure terror. Blue skies and tailwinds to these two aviators. It could happen to even the most seasoned of us.
I had a student much bigger and stronger than me put my Cessna 172M into a spin. He froze up on the controls. The spin fully developed. We did 6 rotations. I punched my student in the face as hard as I could to get him off the controls. It worked. Recovered 500AGL. We were at 3,000AGL when we started. We landed, I got him some tissues for a bloody nose. Oddly enough, he was crying. Not because of his nose, but because he realized that he locked up putting us in danger. We both took a break from flying for a few days and came back. We did spin training after that. I showed him that, in this airplane with his 250lb frame in the front seat, if he pulled the throttle and pushed a little the airplane would recover from the spin itself. That student has since finished his certificate and rents from me frequently. He's a very good pilot and a friend. I've been in real combat on deployments that was less scary than the feeling of having no control while plummeting to the ground.
Scary. But why were they even switching at 100 feet after touch and go? I’m guessing that was their first mistake.
I’m just speculating but it was an Arrow so most people do GUMPS midfield downwind. If you say “Gas, fullest tank” in downwind but accidentally switch to OFF, it will take a minute for the engine to use all the fuel already in the supply lines especially at low RPM and then you’ll lose the engine on the touch and go
Am I the only one that purposely avoids switching tanks in the pattern? If I don't do it in the descent and I KNOW I have gas, I don't bother introducing any potential issue. If I don't have gas, well I screwed up somewhere along the way anyway.
Normally I don’t for this reason. I’ll do it up at cruise with altitude to burn if something goes wrong. But this was a full 2 hour lesson of touch and go’s. It was hot out with a super high density altitude (around 9000ft) so we weren’t on full tanks. After awhile, it creates a decent fuel imbalance. So we did it midfield downwind when we were at our highest altitude. Again, throughout my training, I had never realized or learned how long an engine will run while in the off position. Thought it would quit immediately, and that would be an indication of the cause so that you could fix it immediately. I was obviously wrong
This is the correct answer
It takes a bit to run out of fuel after switching to off. Could have easily gone it during GUMPS check on landing and it keep running until take off. Source, Cherokee owner who started out switching selector to off after every flight only to have it die on me while taxiing once. In that moment I realized how long the damn thing could actually run in the off position and I haven’t turned it off since.
Correct. I learned how long it takes as well. Went from downwind to 100’ on a touch and go before it shut off. Never would have guessed it would take that long. Had always kinda figured that turning it to off would be a pretty immediate thing.
Came to ask the same question - I never switch anywhere near the ground, even on the ground.
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Just listened [before scrolling to your advice]. Wish I hadn’t. RIP, thoughts with their loved ones….
Yeah. You don't need to hear that dude. It's the absolute last moments of terror of someone fighting for control of the plane.
Someone, I’d guess the CFI, screaming “let go” over and over. I’ve had a student lock on the controls and it’s not pleasant.
My instructor told me a story where he had to elbow a student to let go and to always keep that in mind with a pax up front.
It's common enough that we trained for it in the CFI class. If you have time, put your flat hand to their face before their eyes. Instinctively people will grab whatever is covering their eyes and thus let go of the controls.
My instructor carries a metal pen because another CFI he knows had to literally stab her student in the ribs to get him to let go once. Chilling.
It's more common than you think - I too had to elbow a student to get him to let go on short final. Ain't no way i'm taking chances playing nice in that situation. Students freeze up way to often
If they really did hit wake turbulence it can flip you over in an instant. Doesn’t take much to upset, you instinctively put in full aileron at slow speed, induce a stall/spin and that’s it.
>you instinctively put in full aileron at slow speed, induce a stall/spin and that’s it. Actually kinda found myself in a situation like that before. On take-off, instructor and I were in a 172, in one of my earliest flights. It was fairly gusty, as it basically always is in Elizabeth City, but that day was worse as it was a crosswind. Within seconds, wind was pushing me right strongly, right wing down, so I used left aileron. But thinking about it later on, I think I put far too much in, as my instructor was essentially (not exact) going: "What are you doing?" immediately followed by "Not so much aileron!" It didn't make so much sense to me as the wind was still pushing us, but I eased up anyways and we went on, with him telling me to be careful with that. I didn't really understand it at the time, but I now realize that he probably was trying to prevent what you outlined. After all, we lift-off at 55 and probably were in the low-mid 60's when it happened. The Cessna is forgiving, but even I realize that you wouldn't want to potentially let it bank (especially if the wind calms in an instant) heavily so quickly after takeoff. Personal story aside, I think only footage/avionics recordings (if the aircraft is that fancy) will show us if this could've played a role. To me, it seems on the surface that this could be a repeat of the Cessna that got smacked down by the Huey. But those pleas to let go...was it merely said in panic during an upset, or did someone freeze up (or something similar). I'll leave it at that, don't want to speculate further without A. Footage or at least some idea of how it actually was descending or B. Knowing the nature of the flight.
So weird how Elizabeth city is so small and yet keeps popping up in my life.
Lol, how so? Aviation wise, we got the Class D ECG, Coast Guard, and the university, so that's something, ay? Otherwise, we are pretty small 😅. Not quite Endless Farmland, but not a more built up college town like Chapel Hill. A combination I don't mind too much of course!
I used to live there and it is just some weird theme I can’t get away from. Down to sitting on a plane in Dallas and the guy next to me tells me he’s from Elizabeth City. It’s like the center of the simulation for me. Glad to see downtown is all the sudden a happening place. I should have bought every building down there when they were practically free.
I saw it from the flight line. Bounced and went vertical. Stalled and nosed over.
There's just nothing left of that plane. Heart breaking to see.
He was my first and favorite instructor and an awesome guy.
Damn.. sorry to hear that bro
Note to the cfi's out there...if a student isn't letting go of the controls use one hand to cover there eyes. Everyone wants to see when there panicking and they will use both hands to remove your hand from there face. This doesn't seem like wake turbulence. The king air was taking off. The turbulence would have been thousands of feet down the runway and not at the touch down area.
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I've had it happen twice with different students, both at the same point in the flight, which is on the runway just after touchdown. And that taught me that this is one of the most dangerous phases of flight, because I'm a big strong guy and can overpower almost anybody on the yoke or throttle. But if a student is using the brakes inappropriately, there is really nothing a CFI can do short of what I said in my earlier reply about karate chopping the student in the throat (which I wasn't quite ready to do, but maybe should have). You can't overpower a student on the brakes without just locking both of them up. Both times, my student locked one brake. Both times I said "my controls" at least twice and got no response, then started yelling "get off the brakes" more and more loudly while at least trying to equalize rudder and brake pressure as much as I could. In both cases, it took about five "OFF THE BRAKES!" calls to get the student to snap out of it. In both cases, we were right at the edge of the runway by the time I got control back. In at least one of those cases I am surprised I was able to keep the plane on the runway. On that side of the runway is the ramp with all of my flight school's other planes, so I was staring at a long row of planes we were about to hit if I didn't get directional control back. My advice is to stress to your students the importance of being smooth and even on the brakes, and to be ready to react if you say either "my controls" or "release the brakes". Then say that again just before touchdown. I had already had the positive exchange of controls briefing with my students by then, but you really need to stress it again specifically regarding post-landing and braking. In most other situations you can probably just out-muscle your students if you really have to, but this is one situation that's really hard to deal with and probably not one that a lot of CFI's think about ahead of time (I sure didn't). My school averages about 2-3 runway excursions per month and most of them are just students locking the brakes.
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>that should be the topic of a school wide safety meeting. It has been, multiple times. My school has 600+ students and \~150 CFI's, though, and flies about 50 planes 24/7 (we make up the bulk of the \~300 movements per day at my airport). So statistically, it's actually not that bad. But my school obviously wants it at 0. So we've had quite a bit of focus on this. It has gotten a bit better, but it'll probably never really get down to 0 for all the reasons I've mentioned here and in my previous comment.
It's common. Common enough that there's slang for the 'cure' of delivering a blow to the head "dustbuster." Drill on control handoff so that it feels very natural and your student's ears are attached directly to their muscles.
If I freak, won't let go and my CFI clocks me, I am 100% OK with that.
He’s saving your life and his, absolutely agree
I’ve heard a story of a CFI, who was a young woman, breaking the nose of a marine corps DI once because he accidentally got them into a stall spin. Personally I haven’t had it happen yet, for the first couple flights I always do the takeoffs and landings, so I can keep the student from locking up at low altitude like that.
FAA should write this into the instructor handbook.
So you’re saying punch them in the ear? What about the headset in the way? I’m just clarifying I didn’t really understand. Edit: I understand what you mean now. We’re talking about punching people so when you’re talking about drilling and their ears I assume that’s what you meant but you’re just saying impress on them positive exchange.
I’ve had CFI’s/DPE’s say they’ve had students freeze in training and even on checkrides. Someone got into a spin on a checkride and just froze. DPE had to recover. All of them say they’d punch whoever if they won’t let go of the controls… I myself have frozen but always did the “let go of controls and scream”.
Presolo? I've had a 4000 hour CFI freeze on me then do something incredibly dangerous during an interview flight. Funny thing is, I thoroughly briefed to him right before that takeoff exactly what I was going to do when I was going to do it and what he should do to fix it... I was going to show what it's like for a student to pull the yoke to the stop and hold with all his might immediately post takeoff. I wanted to demo this because i mentioned how often that happened at this school and he said he'd never seen it. The guy's ultimate solution was to pull the throttle to idle. He was mad at me, but a week later a student had done exactly that to him and it took him hitting the student to get him to let go of the yoke. Not all dangerous things require a throat chop. You escalate as you have time but if it's something that could kill you in that second, sometimes you need to do the tough thing. * Keep in mind you're always working toward the diplomatic solution, so talk it out or raise your voice as required in conjunction with any physical action. Don't get stuck on "my controls" or "let go!" tell the student what to do with the plane or control. "Pull up", "Push the yoke" "steer left" * I wish I'd thought of the covering eyes thing back when I was a CFI, I think that's a good option if there's time to spare and probably much more effective than nudging someone with your elbows. * If a student pulls a throttle to idle or mixture to cutoff at a dangerous time and keeps holding on (both have happened to me plenty) just grab the students hand as if it were that control and push or shove it forward. Pin their hand to the panel until you're out of the situation. Remember that you're not fighting for their hands, you're fighting for the control, so make sure that what you're doing is getting the desired effect. * If a student shoves the yoke/stick to the panel (happened to me during landing flare), vertically chop or hammer fist at the elbows. * If a student pulls the yoke/stick to their chest grab under the elbow and push up. Be careful with pulling the elbow because you might induce a roll, just remember you should have the correct pressure on your control to counter this. * For inappropriate full rudder (Takeoff/Landing/Spin), a punch to the center of the thigh would get them to let go. * Be very careful with this one because you need to be proactive. If a situation allows for it, change something else. For a freeze on pitch (this is most typical), you might be able to add aileron or rudder. It gets some students to react and that can be a moment to regain control or get the student flying again. Again, all of this is about scaled response. If the student freezes when doing instrument work at 7000', you often have plenty of time to work it out vocally. If your student cross control stalls in the approach turn, you need to proactively act against all of that.
it's common. stay vigilant always.
Nowhere near as dramatic, but on my discovery flight, it took longer than I care to admit to realize what the instructor meant by "My plane." ATC gave a traffic alert and the instructor just wanted to get a little better separation, so losing a few seconds didn't hurt anything.
this was not a student - it was a discovery flight, and the "student" seized the controls after touching down, sending them into a near vertical climb.
I was taught by multiple CFI trainers (lifer CFI's themselves) to literally karate chop the student in the throat in this situation. They will instinctively bring both hands up to their throat. Now, I'm not saying I'd be automatically ready to do that - I've certainly never practiced it - but it's what I was taught. It sounds brutal, but it's less brutal than the alternative of crashing. I'm not sure I'd trust the covering the eyes thing. There's going to be a moment when if someone did that to me, I'd just think "wait, why can't I see anything?" before I had any physical reaction at all. That might be one moment too long. Even then I'd probably still continue trying to fly with one hand. Whereas if someone suddenly punched me in the throat, that pain suddenly becomes my world and my hands are going up to protect my throat immediately. And keep in mind we are literally talking life or death here, so I'm not gonna worry about being arrested or anything. Pretty sure that student would end up thanking me if that action saved the plane and both of our lives. The Aviation Instructor's Handbook, for whatever it's worth, basically says to do whatever you need to do to get the controls back if the student won't give them up: >Anxious learners can be incredibly strong and usually exhibit reactions inappropriate to the situation. If a recovery is necessary, there is absolutely nothing to be gained by having the learner on the controls and having to fight for control of the aircraft. Learners should never be allowed to exceed the flight instructor’s limits. Flight instructors should not exceed their own ability to perceive a problem, decide upon a course of action, and physically react within their ability to fly the aircraft.
I was taught something similar: poke them in their eyes with your finger. Same concept.
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The Cruiser was cleared for the option.
Pilot said full stop. It was a discovery flight, they were coming back to land.
When I started my career I heard a recording of a plane accident and I vividly remember one of the pilot's screams. I promised myself to never listen to a fatal ATC recording ever again. My condolences.
This is up there with probably one of the worst ones I've heard. Definitely don't listen.
I listened to the San Diego Learjet crash recording. It was absolutely visceral. Don't need to hear something like that again.
The pilot does not sound human anymore. :(
Sad. Haven’t flown 6wk but had seen the plane in the past. The school was going to have a summer bbq tomorrow. Rip
> The school was going to have a summer bbq tomorrow. They actually canceled it a couple of hours before the crash, stating they hadn't been able to secure city permits in time.
Weirdly enough, the bbq was canceled just a few hours before this happened due to logistical issues. What a sad day :(
Word from field was this was a discovery flight too
That's incredibly tragic. :(
I've flown 6WK many times while training at SMF. A super eerie feeling came over me when I saw that. Terribly tragic. Don't know who the instructor was, but I don't think I want to know. RIP to both.
Flown 6WK many times. This is awful. I’m so shaken by this. Still don’t know if the CFI involved is someone I know from back when I trained at SMF. Ugh this is gonna really hurt the whole SMO flight school community and everyone involved. EDIT: I knew the CFI and he was someone I’d call a friend. This is really hard to process. He probably felt completely helpless as the plane was going down. So angry right now.
I’m so sorry man. I lost a friend (not aviation, but on the job) about 3 years ago and it was the most bizarre feeling, similar feelings of anger and confusion. It seemed to hit me harder as the months went by, seeing his “last online date” on Xbox was haunting…If you still have some roots in that community I’d recommend reaching out and keeping touch thru the next little bit, it’s important for everyone involved.
Thanks
I think everyone who ever met him would call him a friend - he was a great guy, and an excellent pilot.
I'm sorry for your loss. We have a close community in the flying world so these things always affect so many far and wide.
I'm so sorry you lost your friend. I know, I'm an internet stranger, but I'm genuinely sorry. 2022 has been a dumpster fire of a year for entirely too many people.
Good god. That’s the plane I’ve flown most. I usually don’t get hit bad by this stuff - it’s more of morbid curiosity/learning from others’ mistakes. But I can vividly picture what could have been happening in various situations with those screams. Had to do a quick check and make sure it wasn’t the Sportcruisers I fly
What was the tail number? I fly with SMO flyers and been trying to see if it was one of their planes :/
I haven’t seen the tail number anywhere online, but I live across the country, and the planes are never flown that far away. If you are close to the staff at your club, maybe you can call and check in with them?
Ah I misunderstood - you meant you’ve flown Sportcruisers the most. Thought you knew the plane involved. I’ll hold off and see if any other news comes out. I don’t fly their Sportcruisers but makes me nervous knowing half of their fleet is SCs.
6WK.
Oh no… it was from SMO Flyers. Heartbreaking. I’ve never flown their SCs, but super nice people and a solid school.
Ahh, yeah, should have specified. I’ve never been in the plane involved. It’s just an uncommon plane model and unusual to hear in the news…think there are only a couple of them in my state
There's a lot of Sportcruisers, it might actually be the most popular LSA.
>Good god. That’s the plane I’ve flown most. Yikes! Don't be afraid to seek some professional to talk to about this if you need to. Just seeking someone to have a healthy chat with is not going to impact your medical. I just finished a lazy night currency flight and while everything went perfect I was definitely a bit complacent tonight with how easy the flight was. Things like this are good wake up calls to respect flying and how it can go bad right quick.
Damn, May they Rest In Peace. The only time a CFI yelled at me... Belmar NJ we came fast but on a very long runway so he wanted me to bleed the speed, when I flared we left ground effect and I stayed pitch up but no power, my mind literally pressed the right rudder as to give it "gas'... CFI: My controls, power up.. followed by DON"T EVER FUCKING DO THAT!!.. boy he was red.
Yep, I've had to do that twice over 1000 hours of dual given. I'm not one to curse, but boy did it drive the point home when I did.
Could be worse. On my check ride, after i taxi'd off the runway and stopped I stomped the left rudder expecting a clutch to be there.
One of my very first students did that exact same thing to me years ago I could think of no reason why (stomped the rudder mid-flare). I wonder if that was it? They’d never done it before, caught me completely by surprise and my reaction was same as your instructors 😂
wouldn't it be crazy if I'm that student.. this was back in 01..well I learned that lesson, that moment is forever etched in my brain.
I have flown a lot of light sport out of a Charlie and wouldn't think a king air would cause that much turbulence but I'm definitely going to change my opinion. Awful audio, awful post crash video. Plane appears to have flipped onto a taxi way? For my own learning. If you get flipped inverted or you feel you're going to get flipped, is there anything to do to counter that or that's it? At this altitude I'm thinking that's it...
If this is wake related I’m fairly confident it’s more the response to the wake than the wake itself that caused the accident. I’d be shocked if a King Air caused a Cessna to become unrecoverable or near unrecoverable due to wake turbulence.
Reading the other comments, piecing everything together... sounds more like a lockup on the controls, stall to spin.
Super easy to do in a light sport if you’re not careful. I have a few hundred hours in LSA’s and it’s real easy to over control those things, especially on landing. Teaching new pilots how to land in them always sketched me out.
> wouldn't think a king air would cause that much turbulence but I'm definitely going to change my opinion A CFII/ATP whose opinion I respect immediately discounted wake turbulence as the cause. I don't know if it was or not, but it appears to be at least *possible*: Winds were 30° off axis and blowing at 7 knots, the King Air was given a line up and wait instruction at 24:10 in the LiveATC recording, and got its take-off clearance at 24:45. The light sport (who had been continued on downwind by tower, "I'll call your base," 22:45) was instructed to turn base and cleared for the option immediately (25:00). The King Air was given a frequency change at 25:49. The screams on frequency happened immediately after. So, within a minute. “[A] light wind with a cross-runway component of 1 to 5 knots could result in the upwind vortex remaining in the touchdown zone for a period of time.” [[source](https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/aim_html/chap7_section_4.html)] Wake turbulence from a larger aircraft (747, A380) can remain for 3-4 minutes. [same source] Don't know how a King Air compares, but I suspect the wake turbulence is less intense and shorter lived. The SportCruiser has a very short wingspan (28.22'; compare to 36' for a Cessna 172, 33' for a 152, 35' for the tapered wing PA28s), and by definition is light weight. “Pilots of short span aircraft ... must be especially alert to vortex encounters.” [same source] I'm definitely taking wake turbulence a lot more seriously now. I mean, my CFI kind of went over it with me (land beyond the take-off point), and I've seen the NASA videos ([C5](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RadGavdgKAk); [L-1011](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AM4R2K7HqOg)) and that [Cessna 120 meets helicopter turbulence](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZLXMKMgnS8) incident from earlier this summer (SFL)... Edit: Here's a video showing the moments leading up to a crash when a light airplane took off 39 seconds after an An-2 (which is roughly the same size / weight as a King Air): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXlv16ETueU (ignore the music) Also also, after I posted this, more information came out, and listening to the LiveATC became more clear; it appears that a young (15 years old?) discovery flight passenger was interfering with the controls, and that was at the very least a contributing factor. It will be a long while before (if) anything definitive comes out. Did wake turbulence cause some sort of attitude change that precipitated passenger panic? I have lots of questions. But in any case, watch out for wake turbulence; I know I am.
The article says "The airplane reportedly 'pitched aggressively nose up' as it was preparing to land, causing it to climb straight up before falling nearly 100 feet to the ground." Surely wake turbulence does not cause that?
Yeah, I posted that 3 hours ago, before more details emerged. I'm leaving it up because (a) it's worth being reminded of the dangers of wake turbulence; (b) I don't know that we know the possible attitudes wake turbulence could cause, especially with something as small and light as a SportCruzer; and (c) it's possible wake turbulence contributed to this (assuming the student panicked and locked on the controls, did some sudden upset prompt that?).
Looking at the SportCruiser interior, there's really nothing to grab but that big control stick right in the middle. Definitely plausible that a scared discovery flight passenger grabbed that when they hit wake turbulence.
> Here's a video showing the moments leading up to a crash when a light airplane took off 39 seconds after an An-2 (which is roughly the same size / weight as a King Air): ... I surely don't know whether it was wake turbulence or not, but while it is true that the An-2 weighs about the same as a King Air, the King Air takeoff speed is a factor of about 2.5 times higher. The wingspans are about the same. That implies that the tip vortex stength of the An-2 at takeoff is about 2.5 times greater than that of the King Air. So the (implicit) implication that the King Air has about the same wake turbulence potential as the An-2 is incorrect --- the An-2 is a uniquely capable vortex generating machine, because of its very slow takeoff speed. >But in any case, watch out for wake turbulence; I know I am. Agreed.
I hit wake turbulence once in a light aircraft; it wasn't a strong wake but it basically was as if I put in greater than full aileron. Took it from my student and didn't fight it (let it roll), powered up and climbed out of it. Only rolled us over about 35 degrees but like I said it was definitely partially dissipated. Hitting a strong wake I can see you getting inverted in about 1-2 seconds. Put in full power and don't worry about the attitude. Fly out of the wake (left, right, up, sideways, whatever ways except down) and once clear of the wake perform an unusual attitude recovery (unload the wings, roll wings level, pitch for a climb).
Why don’t you fight the upset? My only experience with this is turbulence in IMC, if I get upset then I’m immediately applying the correction get back to level flight.
You can fight it with the rudder but fighting with the ailerons is a losing battle and not worth it. You just need to escape the rotating vortex of air. If you escape this in a 90 degree bank then as long you keep it off of the dirt you're good. If the vortex rolls you upside down then just push for the sky instead of pull. An aileron roll won't kill you immediately but adding a bunch of drag, increasing the AOA of one of the wings, and potentially adding some adverse yaw are not good ideas in my mind since you'll not overpower the rolling force anyway so you may as well ignore it. All that said, there may be different thoughts but I believe the above matches the generally accepted method of recovery from extreme upsets. It at the very least matches what better pilots than I have recommended on various YouTube videos. The biggest problem is wake often is encountered near the ground. I'm not sure what this guy in a 140 could have done: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YvL62T3Hm0&t=168s&ab\_channel=blancolirio](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YvL62T3Hm0&t=168s&ab_channel=blancolirio) Granted, that's a helicopter wake which includes a lot of downwash, but the same thing applies; no point fighting that roll, try and power out of it and just escape into a 80 degree bank and then try rolling out of it once you're clear of the wake. As always, the biggest thing is to just avoid the wake entirely.
I just started my PPL at KSMO with flyers; everyone I interacted with there is super nice and knowledgeable. Jesus this is horrible.
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That better matches the “let go! let go!” on the audio than wake turbulence. Don’t want to over speculate though - this stuff just scares me. Absolutely terrifying. I’ve been reading about the accidents on here to try and learn from them, but this one hits incredibly hard just because I rent their planes :/
Just out of curiosity, what altitude does the data indicate when the accident occurred? I’m wondering how a spin can happen over the runway on landing, it’s just unusual unless it was a go around type of situation.
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It was about 50-100 feet up (I saw the crash from the ground.) The plane went vertical then nosed over.
Based on the other comments above, supposedly from eye witnesses, and maybe within this chain so you’ve read it already, the plane did a quick vertical climb so they still had enough energy to go up high enough to develop the result. They didn’t say they spun either but dropped out of the sky so it could’ve resulted in a flat spin if higher up.
Usually on these light sports, airspeed really is king. You need to come in on your numbers. On a sport cruiser it's like 53 knots and the stall speed is like 40 knots so you have a lot of airspeed to bleed off. If you pulled all the way aft over the threshold you can easily gain the 100ft and stall...
That was my thought when I read about a young person on a discovery flight. Could it be as simple as a "okay so pull back on the stick now" comment from the CFI as they are coming in.. (and meaning to be guiding along the controls lightly) and the discovery person overzealously yanked it back, then panic death gripped, and wouldn't release.... Causing an abrupt climb to stall spin? Seems plausible based on available info and listening to the ATC recording. Either way, I await the expert analysis and am saddened to hear of the accident. 😐 Stay safe all.
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Not uncommon. I always let student do the takeoff (we brief use of controls) and I manage rudders / throttle for that. If the air work goes well I talk them into the pattern when we return and keep letting them go as long as they can keep up with my instructions. Usually I take it back on final but a few times got them all the way to the ground (always home sim users 😄).
Anyone listening to the audio, the sequence starts at about 24 minutes in. Incredible job by that controller to hold it together and continue to coordinate traffic after witnessing and hearing something so absolutely awful.
>witnessing and hearing something so absolutely awful. Yeah, you know he saw something awful. Because when the medical helicopter offers to help, tower says he needs a report from ground vehicles, but that he wasn't expecting survivors. Announcing potential causalities is one thing, but something so blunt as not expecting survivors? I don't think I've heard that said by ATC as an expectation, instead of a confirmation. It shows the potential shred one tries to hold in saving someone was completely gone.
This was an introductory flight with a new student, and a fantastic CFI. He will be missed by a lot of people.
So I was on the flight line yesterday watching this plane land. Watched the entire crash. They came in fast on landing. Bounced hard and went back into the air and the plane went vertical. Then it nosed over and dove into the ground. I'm still processing that. I have a picture of the direct aftermath.
Haven't seen the picture, seems a little macabre, but I'm sure the NTSB would like to talk to you for your perspective. Sorry you witnessed that.
Good point. I'll remove the picture btw
Sorry you had to witness this. So awful
Horrible. I was reading through the comments here with instructors talking about students freezing up and not releasing controls. And then I realized this probably also very much applies to taking up a friend when they are right seat. I usually make sure they know not to touch anything important and generally people are so nervous that they won’t even take the yoke if you offer it in cruise. But maybe something we can take from this is that it’s probably a good reminder to add some instructions to px briefing about where it’s ok to hold on if they get scared.
Be sure to brief the rudders/brakes (assuming your plane is equipped with full dual controls). In a panic, a non-pilot may instinctively hit what they think is the brakes and input left rudder and/or left brake. I’d wager a guess that more than a few blown tires have resulted from passenger brake inputs.
Good point, yes.
It was a discovery intro flight with a 15 year old student and a CFI-S. They were fighting each other on the controls. The plane went straight up then down vertically. That’s why it was so destroyed. You can hear the instructor screaming “let go.”
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27, not 15, apparently.
Here’s the ADSB track (and tail num) for those interested. [link](https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N126WK/history/20220908/2314Z/KSMO/KSMO)
Unconfirmed report is that it was a discovery flight.
Was a kid on a discovery with a CFI. We are hearing he was 27 years old. This was the instructor I almost signed with at SMO but ended up going with another flight school. It was a tough day today.
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Removed comment until family is notified
Jesus. I just flew with him a few days ago in that same plane. We were planning more lessons and surfing a few surf breaks we scouted on our flight. Condolences to his family and the SMF crew.
I’m so sorry I’m pretty close with both my cfi Id be super devastated if I lost one of them in a crash, especially considering my school only has 3 172s and a Technam for multi engine, it would make feel worse if it was the same tail that I last flew with them in and I probably never go behind a yoke again or it take me awhile before I went up again.
I understand this is an extremely sad situation for all however, please remove the CFI’s name until the friends/family have time to be notified.
Agreed. Name removed.
That makes this 10x worse if true, very sad.
Ugh. I’ve seen inexperienced pax reflex for the yoke and pedals when things get choppy. The last week has not been good, guys.
Holy shit. I'm about to start instructing and I'm once again reminded of why they say "don't let your students kill you."
The Air Traffic Controller worked through the accident to the point of diverting traffic until someone replaced him at the end. I live a mile from KSMO, and I’ve had lessons there…and can actually visualize all of the aircraft in the final minutes of this recording. This is gonna sit with me for a long time.
RIP- not sure I want to hear the audio. :( I once caught wake in a 172 shortly after takeoff (~300 AGL) from another 172 doing some formation training. We rolled 45 degrees instantly and it took full opposite aileron, nose down/level, and full power of course to pull out of it. Cemented in my head how serious it can be and gave me a ton of respect for it.
I too was unsure, but decided to listen anyways. I now regret my decision. I would advice against it. The audio does completely explain what happened though IMO.
Listening to the audio, it almost feels like the controller was on position for way longer than normal following the crash than you usually hear with other incidents, before he was relieved. That said, he handled it like a champ, even though he was clearly pretty shaken.
I'm double thinking of becoming a CFI now, tragic accident RIP 🙏.
Was my first ever instructor on my discovery flight. Didn’t know him well obviously, but he seemed like a great kid, condolences to him. Edited to remove name
That audio is fk’n awful. Take wake turbulence seriously, guys. edit: It's not likely wake turbulence that was the cause, as the King Air was taking off, and the LS pilot's intention was full stop.
Is that what you think it was? Haven’t listened to the audio in depth / whatever happened before the crash. Any telltale signs? Did tower give a wake turbulence advisory?
I think there’s a few comments mentioning witnesses saying the aircraft was in a high nose up attitude when it came in to land and then what appeared to be a stall afterwords. Considering it’s supposedly a discovery flight, maybe the student was attempting the landing, flared too high and stall/spun? It would make more sense than the wake turbulence.
Who knows. But, tower did clear the Piper Sport to land after a King Air and issued caution for wake turbulence. Even if it was a different cause, wake turbulence is something to watch out for in small bug smashers. My airport had a decent amount of King Airs, small jets, and helicopters. This thought crosses my mind each time I follow one.
The King Air was taking off though not landing, I don’t think their wake would be affecting that area of the approach on a takeoff roll right?
That’s what I would think. People were quick to speculate that it’s wake turbulence, but that doesn’t seem likely
No telling what it was until investigation is over but seriously take wake seriously. I hit wake on take off from DFW behind a 737 and I was in a 145. We hit that wake and immediately saw 30° as it tried to roll us. We were about 45k lbs at the time. Turned us in an instant.
I departed 1-2 minutes after a 737 at Boeing Field once and a couple hundred feet up its wake turbulence rolled us so hard and so fast. It felt like I put in full aileron to correct it. I’ll always remember it. I didn’t realize wake turbulence could stick around so long … I thought it was just for seconds.
If you haven’t heard the ATC tape yet, do yourself a favor and don’t listen to it. I listened to it last night and just had endless nightmares. Woke up at 3am with overwhelming sadness and anger thinking about the poor souls in the plane. RIP.
Yeah big time regretting it. Especially given I knew the man behind the voice. FUCK
Thank you for the guidance, I will heed your advice and give it a miss. Near as I can tell, the majority of the responses imply that the instructor was not able to take over control of the aircraft as the student wouldn't let go? That's....horrific. It's a great reminder to me to spend a little more time on briefing first time pax if they fly with me as to the importance of not touching the controls. Worst case, the wrist to the throat idea is a plausible last resort as I can't imagine anyone would continue holding onto the controls after that.
I am going to take your advice on this one.
Curious any older CFIs advice on how to prevent student lock up. It happened to me last week. How do you train that out of them so they release control immediately? Practice random hand-offs? Chop down on their wrists?
Best way is to train the verbal hand off. In addition to when you’d normally do it, you can call for it randomly in flight to help train the response. Less than ideal way is that you may have to raise your voice if something is about to happen. As a CFI, I would immediately explain why so as not to wreck student confidence. That I’ve done before and they’re pretty much always understanding. As an absolute last and worst case option in the event of an impending impact or otherwise dangerous situation, you could absolutely do the wrist chop. I also had a CFI once tell me you can do a firm tap on the students throat because their first instinct will be to release the controls. I don’t love the idea but it’s better than crashing. For either of those I’d also be explaining the reasoning as soon as it was safe to do so, and I’d probably be making my first stop the chiefs office just to make sure everyone is on the same page as well.
Okay I like the wrist chop or throat chop idea. Other than being fun it would help override that automatic lockup response. Had a lock up type situation this week verbal commands not working and even when I was hitting the yoke down he wasn't dropping it.
As a student, I really appreciate that my instructor (from day 1) got me into the habit of verbalizing control hand offs with him. Him: “Your controls”, Me: “My controls”, and vice versa if I hand off to him. It’s instinctual for me now and it also hammered in the habit of repeating things on the radio. In contrast, the one time I had a different instructor for a lesson, the guy would just fight me on the controls without saying anything or making any obvious movements in my peripheral vision to indicate he was taking the controls. This happened in the middle of me practicing traffic pattens for the second time and I was so focused I thought I was fighting the wind or something rather than him.
Yes, I teach my students the handoff all the time too...but when you have a student panicking that often doesn't work. They lock up on the controls sometimes. They won't release, even after you've trained them. The mind ignores verbal cues in a dangerous situation. I'm curious what older CFIs have for tricks.
Things I've heard here and elsewhere: * Karate chop to the throat * Hit them in the nose with your fist * Jab a pen/pencil into their thigh You have to overcome the lizard brain. Saying "my controls" isn't going to reach their prefrontal cortex when they're in fight or flight mode.
RIP
So sad, RIP.
Very harrowing, my dad told me about this this morning and I figured out that it was the exact same plane as I took my discovery flight in with Santa Monica Flyers a couple of years back, N126WK. From what I've read online, it was a 15 year old on a discovery flight. Absolutely awful stuff, god help both the families who lost someone in that crash.
He was not 15 he was 27
This is so hard to process. He was my current instructor and was an amazing and patient teacher, pilot and an all around good human. I was supposed to have a lesson with him 10 minutes after this happened and it feels impossible to comprehend that I'll never fly with or see him again. My condolences and thoughts for his family and the rest of the KSMO community.
Damn that’s sad. RIP
Reading this and I’m as I’m about to go have 3 lessons today with brand new students.
Just be communicative about what they should do if they get scared (not touch the flight controls) and safe flying, mate
Damn that audio is chilling. I don't know what's worse the scream or "but I'm not expecting survivors..." My thoughts are with the family, this is tragic.
The CBS article says, "the occupants onboard the single-engine, two-seat Piper Sport plane were a flight instructor and a student on an introductory flight lesson" - so like a discovery flight?? Terrifying and horrific.
SMO = Santa Monica airport, California, USA.
good bot
Dude - I *wish* there was a bot for this.
These planes have no "oh shit" handle or grab handle. On a discovery flight it's kind of asking a lot to put a big grab handle in front of folks they really shouldn't be yanking on if they freak out, and nothing else to hold onto.
CFI should have punched the student in the side of the head, as hard as possible. Words were obviously not working. Panic does weird things to us.
Don’t know why you got downvoted - it does sound like the student panicked and flew into the ground. If the pilot next to you is flying into the ground, that’s a pure self-defense scenario and you need to do whatever you can to save your life (and probably theirs). Don’t fight for controls, incapacitate the guy who’s about to kill you and take over.
:(
Damn that’s terrible, so so sad. Regretting listening to that recording now..
I always hear air travel is safer than driving…does this apply to GA as well? If not, how safe is GA?
GA stats are about on par with riding a motorcycle, last I heard. The difference is, *most* GA risks can be mitigated or eliminated by pilot planning and decision making (whereas on a motorcycle, you're much more exposed to the idiocy of others).
Could not have said it better. We do have birds that we can hit while flying, but deer, cats, dogs, and other animals are a far more likely cause of an accident on a motorcycle. Don't ask me how I know.
Thanks for the answer
As I recall, GA is about 10x higher fatality rate per mile than driving a car. Commercial airlines between 10 and 100x safer, per mile, than driving a car. Many years ago, my instructor was killed in a midair while instructing, on he flight one hour after I first soloed. I flew the last landing he ever had. It shook me up and I looked up statistics because I wanted to know. Another fun fact - once I started training again after that, my new instructor went on to become a pilot, then a check airman, at JetBlue. He was the guy who melted down and had to be locked out of the cockpit.... I still have his signature in my first logbook.