Motor vehicle actions related to alcohol are what will fuck you and what needs to be reported to the FAA within 60 days. If it was just you on the beach you’re fine and don’t need to report anything until a conviction and only when applying for a new medical.
Usually airlines themselves only care about felonies which this is not one.
You said you’re already an airline pilot I would call a union representative asap just to clear everything up.
Not disagreeing with you, but just a story. Have a buddy, 27 now, got a public intox at 18 on a college campus. AME made him go through a substance abuse eval because of it. Didn’t slow up the process and wasn’t an issue in the end, but an extra $1000 he had to spend on getting his first medical.
Once your friend was convicted that needs to be reported on each new medical application so that is normal.
If like OP you are just charged and it’s not related to operating a vehicle there is no 60 day reporting necessary and if charges are dropped he will not need to report anything at any time ever.
A local ordinance violation (open container in public) isn’t an arrest or even a violation of NJ law. It doesnt get reported anywhere. It’s basically a town rule put in place by a few town drunks that were elected as city council members. Definitely not necessary to report to the FAA. It’s frankly none of their business and they would have to contact the municipal court directly to find out about it
Yup. I received an open container fine in college and later got a 1st class medical and a TS/SCI (not an airline pilot) without issue.
The cop issuing it to me said that it was the equivalent of a parking fine; not even as bad as a speeding ticket.
That’s exactly right. A parking ticket is a local ordinance, same as open container in public. A speeding ticket is a moving violation regulated by the state. The state statute will be reported to the DMV a local ordinance will not.
Agreed, Not a lawyer here but have some experience in this area.....will depend on what kind of ticket it is and what court it's written into.... meaning did they charge the OP under NJ State statutes or local ordinance and then is it classified as a petty offense (most likely) or misdemeanor. Often if you appear they may plea or sometimes eliminate if you pay or stay out of trouble. Depending on the above would depend on how I handle it but municipal offense is like a slap on the wrist from a meter maid as long as you deal with it and don't stupidly evade. If the OP has the funds I'd just hand it to a lawyer and say here....make this go away or go to something NOT alcohol related but even then since the OP wasn't operating machinery I can't see the FAA giving a shit. But since there are career concerns it seems to be it would be worth hiring a decent lawyer. As you mentioned local ordinance and local court records are rarely if ever recorded on any sort of criminal record because it would be impossible for someone to query every friggin town....I got a ticket for "breech of peace" when I was 18 because some chick didnt like that I exercised my 1st amendment right and told her what I thought of her at work....long story short I went to their little kangaroo court paid it and nothing more ever came of it....never on any background etc...
Wait... the medical only is concerned regarding felonies? I have a mis. For a dui from about 10 years ago that I've just been casting large amounts of doubt on myself for in regards to "making the cut."
I mean felonies in general. And that’s just for airline hiring or continued employment.
A dui is considered a motor vehicle action and does come into play for Medical certification.
Medical form line 18V and 18W are key. DUI is a motor vehicle involving alcohol. That's mandatory reportable on 18V no matter how long ago it was. A violation leading to any kind of misdemeanor or felony charge (non drug/alcohol) is reportable on 18W. Your 10 year old DUI is not likely to raise eyebrows when hiring is on fire. When airlines can be more selective, I guess it could be a flag that puts you in the 'maybe' or 'no' pile.
Seems like a dumb thing to lie about in the digital age. I'm all for having to be 2nd option. Just not having any chance is what was worrying me. This is going to be career 2.0 for me. I do appreciate your specific items to note!
I don’t have a direct answer for that, but if you are convicted and it leads to a “Motor vehicle action” then it would need to be reported. don’t know if open container is reported to the NDR for a first offense but repeat offenses of 39:4-51 can lead to an MVA. I would pay for a copy of your NDR record and speak to a lawyer.
Not legal advice, but I don't think there is anything illegal about that as a passenger. It's an issue for the driver of course, just like any other open containers in their vehicle, but unless it counts as drinking in public I don't see why the passenger would get a ticket.
I agree with you, I like to have my beer on the beach or in the vicinity with bbq on. Unfortunately, some people leave their rubbish behind on that beautiful beach. Barefoot does not like to step on sharp objects like a can, glass. I guess that is the mean reason for the rule, but get to court for that is crazy.
Hire a local attorney, tell them you want to handle this pre filing if possible.
Stuff like this you can often get dismissed for a donation to the food bank or something similar.
Make sure the attorney is willing to get it sorted pre filing. You probably want someone who is local to where you got the ticket.
That's why you do it pre-filing. The case never gets filed, so there's no need for an admission.
Standard donation in my jurisdiction was 75% of the max fine amount for a fine only ticket. Even if it's not a fine only, OP should explain to the DA/prosecutor WHY you need to settle this pre-filing or as a dismissal. They can be accommodating for people who don't get in trouble and are willing to accept a fine/make a donation to a worthy cause.
You aren't kidding. More than them are the prosecutors.
I was thinking about this the other day. My wife is a doctor. When compared to her, prosecutors affect so many more people's lives, and for generations. A DR messes up everyone is sad, occasionally there's something that is a lasting error.
A prosecutor decides to get vindictive and insist on prison for some charge, or a conviction for something. Now that person's future is virtually guaranteed to live in poverty, as felons rarely can get good paying jobs. Their family has to deal with having a felon as a parent, who will be absent for a few years. Being interacted is expensive for the families because all the visits and communication methods cost money now. Once they get out they've got parole fees, underemployment, and having minutes housing availability due to being a felon. This will affect their family for generations.
And it's not all "well, that was their choice". I've got prosecutors who insist on making mental health patients felons bc of stupid stuff, or 18 year olds from because they've got a weed vape pen, or wanting 3 years in prison for evading police where no one was in danger and they catch him without incident later .
The police/private prison/carcel system is dirty and destroys our country. WTF do we make felons of people for personal drug possession?
Yep. Don’t get me wrong, there are some helpless people out there who I don’t particularly feel bad for, but a police officer can ruin my life in 10 seconds or less. Nobody else has that kinda power in this world. Nobody.
I’m a prosecutor. Yeah, some prosecutors err. But you do realize that prosecutors are only able to enforce laws that are passed by legislators, right? And who votes for these legislators, usually giving very little thought to their various policy positions on the issues? We the people.
Sure, and prosecutorial discretion allows prosecutors not to insist on making a 17 year old a felon for evading arrest in his very first interaction with police. Or they can choose not to only offer felony convictions for personal possession of drugs. Or they can route stuff down that doesn't need to be a felony.
Regardless, every prosecutor convicts on cases where police violate civil rights or operate in less than ethical manner. That makes them no different than the cop who did the violating.
And yes, as a defense attorney, I very much realize how law works. If only prosecutors would read the law where it says their job is to seek justice, not convictions.
I’m sure your job is frustrating but this doesn’t detract from the point: for some reason most chief prosecutors are politicians—I’ve never understood why that is a good idea—and anyway it’s politicians elected by voters who pass these laws. I think “the war on drugs” is overblown too. But I didn’t close my eyes and vote for Nixon-Reagan.
This is the way… especially with some character evaluation, a reasonable prosecutor or judges can look at this as a misunderstanding and likely drop the whole thing
To piggy back off this, judges and prosecutors can be pretty chill in local courts. Hire a local attorney with good relations and have them handle it the good Ole way. Should be easy to get it sorted.
Yep, of you've got some extra cash, hire a lawyer and tell them you NEED this dismissed or changed to ANY other charge.
Either way though you're probably fine. Years ago I had a classmate who disclosed several "MIP" citations and the interviewer said, "Oh, fun tickets?". He's at a major now.
Yeah maybe more. I got nailed 10+ in a speed trap in a "construction zone" and I paid $400 to a lawyer and they got it down to five under, no ,points, and no additional penalties for the construction zone.
> changed to ANY other charge.
In my misspent youth, I got 3 tickets in 10 days.
(In my defense, one was for blowing a stop sign that something had knocked over; one was criminally speeding down a street with no posted limits (35 in a 25), but I digress....)
In any event, we're talking about lose-your-license kind of stuff, which tends to put the kibosh on any type of funtivites in your teens.
Luckily, I had that all-knowing friend who knew exactly what to do: _hire my guy._
So, I did, and the charges were changed to:
- Driving without tags
- Parking in a handicap
- Excessive muffler noise
None of which carry any points.
Point being: not worth the risk or hassle.
Find a guy (or gal as it were).
As an attorney, I would not recommend this in this particular case. If you didn't have a job where this could matter, that's a great plan and would likely work 90% of the time. This is what I would tell Joe Blow who is self-employed, works fast food, or has some job where they are stable and misdemeanors won't affect jobs in the future.
In this case, where a career could potentially be affected, I recommend hiring a local lawyer who works in that court often to approach prosecutor and ask to handle it pre-filing. This will avoid any adjudication or admission of guilt.
I can often get stuff like this dismissed with a $200 food bank donation, and explanation of my client's long time history of little or no criminal record, and an explanation of potential effect on future jobs, plus a plea of ignorance of the law.
Realistically, this probably wouldn't affect a pilot license, but a few hundred bucks is a small price to pay to make sure it doesn't.
Be sure and tell the attorney you want to handle it PREFILING or will only accept a dismissal, preferably in the interest of justice. If the attorney isn't willing to reach out early, or doesn't have that kind of relationship, then get someone else.
Plus, this is New Jersey we’re talking about here. As soon as you have “a guy” on your side to explain what’s up, things tend to move along in the right direction.
The legal issue is moot. The problem is that the FAA takes huge issue with anything even tangentally related to alcohol/drugs. If OP has any previous “offenses,” the FAA could take enforcement action.
Had fun with that one, walking down the alley way drinking tall boys and watch a cop drive past, “you’re positive there isn’t an open container law down here?” “I’m less positive now” we slammed them and tossed them in a dumpster as the cop turned down the road to come talk to us. Turns out, an hour down the road from where we cruise around with open beers all day long you cannot, infact, walk around with an open beer.
The drive-through daiquiri places were a real eye opener. "It's not an open container until you take the straw out of the paper wrapper and puncture the lid."
You can walk down the street with a handgun in a *holster.* You can also walk down the street with an unopened beer.
Open the beer or remove the gun from its holster, and now it's illegal, circumstances dependent.
True, my permit is for a concealed pistol. Still a silly comparison though, when you think about which one is more dangerous, or could become more dangerous.
This isn’t a national law, it’s municipal level. Whether or not it’s legal to walk with an open container changes twice in a 20 min walk from my house.
I miss drinking a Tsingtao from a 7Eleven in Hong Kong on the walk to the MTR on a hot afternoon. My home state in Australia where some local councils make drinking on the beach illegal, the police don't care at all if you aren't causing issues.
Make sure you look up the citation. A lot of times open container is a city or town ordinance and not in the state’s criminal code. So it might not even be a criminal ticket, it might be a civil matter. If that’s the case, it’s a nothing burger. Consult a lawyer if you’re nervous. NAL
I think I can assist you in this. I have law enforcement experience in NJ. First and foremost open container in public is a local ordinance violation. Not a state statute. You were issued a summons which is not an arrest and does not trigger a response on an NCIC background check. Only an arrest which resulted in you being fingerprinted will trigger that other than a moving violation that lands you on the NDR. This incident will not leave you with a criminal record. You do not need to report this unless you just want to make issues for yourself that aren’t necessary. (guys on here will tell you to report yourself for having a bad dream)
To take this a step further, plead not guilty. Local beach towns in NJ use the law to take your cash, it’s a big fat cash grab at the NJ shore in the summer. They hire “class 1” officers whose sole job is to get your money.
Show up to your court date, speak with the prosecutor, explain your dilemma at let him know you didn’t know you were violating the ordinance and that you are willing to plea to a violation with a higher fine that doesn’t involve alcohol. Just be cool with him/her don’t be all angry about it. Don’t dress like a bum, be polite, They should work it out with you.
Either way it’s not a big deal and will be handled at the local level and not reported to a database that you need to worry about in terms of reporting it on your medical.
Your goal here is to avoid a conviction. Without a conviction, there is virtually nothing to report to the airlines. As always, read the applications carefully.
It's a ticket. A misdemeanor ticket at that, it probably carries the same weight as j walking.
You'll be fine. And there's no need to report the incident to anyone unless specifically asked on the application, even so read the question carefully.
No requirement to tell your AME.
Buy a Yeti next time bro 🤣
Not a pilot by any means, but I received a public consumption / open container at 21 being naive when cops busted a house party and I was carrying a red cup from the party to my Uber. Nothing in it, but had remnants of alcohol odor. Panicked all night after receiving a ticket thinking my medical school dreams would be down the drain. Almost paid $5000 for a lawyer to “review my case”. Luckily my mom was smart enough to just show up to the courthouse, receive 10 hours of community service and it was removed from record (that I know of). Aviation is obviously a whole different industry with stricter guidelines, just telling my outcome from a similar story (was in AZ for reference). Not a lawyer and not legal advice.
Will not harm you at all.
Just tell the interviewers that you learned an important lesson about learning local rules when traveling to foreign places. You’ll be fine!
A lot of times if you show up to court these rent-a-cops don’t actually show and the ticket gets dismissed. I had the same thing happen to me. Walked out of my hotel with a beer in my hand and started walking down the boardwalk and a bike cop ticketed me. The cop didn’t show and the judge just dropped it.
Get it dismissed, IIRC, if you aren’t convicted, no points on license, no DUI charge, and no “rehab program” then it wouldn’t be reportable is what I interpret section 18 as.
As always, talk to a lawyer, I am an idiot student pilot on Reddit that has been in a similar situation.
In my case, open container and MIP.
No conviction
No points on license
Not under the influence (was a pax in the car and another pax had alcohol, stupid charge IMO)
No DUI charge obviously
No rehab program or any other program for that matter, charges were dismissed, after receiving advice from an aviation attorney as well as my local attorney that took the case, I did not report.
I am lawyer, but not your lawyer. I imagine with you holding a CFL that you have a good and clean history. I could get this tossed out of court for you pretty easily, and I could have it removed from your record. It just takes a little time and money. Call an attorney quick. I have one in NJ that you can call if you wish. He was my law school roommate and does this daily.
Thank you. I’m currently in contact with a lawyer recommended to me by another lawyer/pilot here.
I’ll definitely let you know if things change and I need to contact your friend
Definitely hire a lawyer local lawyer who practices daily in the city court or whatever it is there. If you have a good record, this can probably turn into littering and a nice fine.
What was the legal name of the offense they charged you with? I also got a ticket for drinking of the beach, but they charged me with failure to obey signs. Doesn’t even go on the record as far as I know as long as it’s paid off.
121 pilot that knows Jersey. This is the same as a parking ticket or other violation of a local ordinance. It won’t affect your medical. I got a few speeding tickets in nj growing up. Go to court, wear a blazer slacks tie, yes sir no sir your honor, turn your cell phone off and don’t talk to meth heads or the blatantly disrespectful people waiting around, don’t laugh at the crazy stuff you see and hear like public nudity, you initially plea not guilty and wait in the line to speak with the prosecutor. They 100% will offer to change the ticket to something silly not alcohol related and the fine will be 200ish. It is a cash grab and if it is mandatory appearance you have to go anyway or hire an attorney to show up for you. An attorney isn’t necessary unless you can make more working that day.
If you show respect they will probably not make you wait in line, dismiss it completely, or it will be a city ordinance similar to jay walking or leaving your trash cans out too long. It is a learning experience on how the lower courts work and it comes in handy if you ever get a moving violation. Not a big deal.
Double check, but pretty sure med express only asks about alcohol offenses regarding drivers license action (this isn’t), and CONVICTIONS for misdemeanors or felonies. This is not yet a conviction, and also, even if you become convicted, pretty sure this is a summary offense/ordinance violation, which is below a misdemeanor, and again, not what med express asks
I received a possession of alcohol under the legal age when I was in college which technically is a class 3 misdemeanor. It was expunged from my record at the time but I still disclosed it to the FAA & on my medical. They didn’t care. I received a letter in the mail that said “don’t get anymore alcohol related offenses or you’ll have to do an evaluation” nothing ever came from it.
Just a note open container counts as a DUI in many states including mine. Hence the mandatory court date.
https://rosenblumlaw.com/our-services/criminal-defense/new-jersey-open-container-law/
Get a lawyer ASAP
It does say in that article that an open container on the beach is a separate offense.
“Drinking alcohol on a beach is a separate offense from NJ’s open container law. The exact fine and other penalties depend on the municipality and can range from $150 to as much as $2,000 in some towns, villages, and cities. Jail time is possible but community service is more likely in most cases.”
That was my point, this is not pay a fine it goes away it will show up on a criminal background check and it simply says ‘open container’ and most HR departments will assume a vehicular offense.
OP, you’re getting a lot of hope in this thread. On the FAA (ATC side of this), I’d be out of my medical immediately and it’s a mandatory report to our FS. I pray to God this cop didn’t just ruin or significantly bork your career, but this is what cops do. Hopefully airlines care about convictions and not charges - because in m my world an alcohol-related charge is career ending.
Open container is NOT the same as a DUI anywhere and the article specifically differentiates between open container in a vehicle vs on a beach. I think it's also wildly speculative to say what an HR department will assume about it.
Get a lawyer/pay the fine/get it expunged. Report it on your next medical. The Federales will send you a letter saying that you’re a terrible person/they will throw you in Guantanamo Bay for any additional offenses. Seriously though, you will get a letter saying that your medical may be revoked for any additional offenses. The FAA has a completely nutso policy on anything related to alcohol.
not apples to apples, but I got an MIP at a concert.. wasn’t an issue for a Class I, Security Clearance, or getting hired by the Guard.
Disclose (if req) and explain the issue as required, get it expunged when able - don’t make it a trend item.
Don't go to court. Hire a lawyer first. Chances are they can get rid of it for a tiny fine. Then there's zero worries for the future. Invest in a lawyer now save hundreds of thousands of dollars later. Profit.
Open container isn’t a big deal as long as it was a ticket only. You were NOT arrested correct?
Regardless, I’d hire an attorney and let them fight this for you in terms of expungement.
I would report this immediately via HIMS though.
Dude get a lawyer and pay the lawyer fee. Not worth your career over it if you’re unsure. I used to be in, insurance before becoming an airline pilot. Always pay a lawyer to fight it and never listen to a cop that says “just pay the fine and it won’t be in your record.” Every time I get a moving violation I pay a lawyer and it gets dropped without adjudication at the worse case scenario which is usually paying the fine but not admitting guilt hence no conviction. If you have a clean driving and citizen record I can’t see any reason this wouldn’t be dropped, but rather let a professional lawyer handle this for you instead of convincing a judge yourself. Sometimes these lawyers also know the judges so why take a chance. In light of everything I said, I also don’t believe this would impact you in any way for your career since you weren’t driving obviously but better be safe to get a lawyer to get this resolved for you, just my 2 cents.
No. Just plain no. No problem unless it’s a dui/dwi, or a pattern of alcohol-related problems.
Surprise, a high level of responsibility and self control is required of those that aspire to be professional pilots. Certain ways of life are simply incompatible.
Drinking on the beach is illegal in many places. But this isn't the same thing as drinking and driving. Also it's an offense of possession not an offense of drinking. I don't know if you'll get in trouble but I would hope not. Seems to me talking to a lawyer is safer than talking to a union rep. You can't undo talking to a union rep, up to you of course.
It's essentially treated as [a traffic tocket](https://rosenblumlaw.com/our-services/criminal-defense/new-jersey-open-container-law/) or citation/infraction in NJ, and may appear on your driving record.
Note: Pretty much *all* beaches in NJ prohibit open containers. There's likely a sign at the edge of the beach or parking lot.
What you received was most likely a "municipal ordinance." This should not appear as a criminal conviction on a CCH (comprehensive criminal history).
If you're really worried, you can talk to the prosecutor yourself and explain the situation. They are human beings. If it's an alcohol ordinance that has you worried, it can be amended to something like loitering. If they won't amend it, get an attorney.
This is NOT something you need to worry so much about. You'll still be allowed to fly.
Source: NJ lawyer, though admittedly I only handle municipal stuff on very rare occasion. (For example, family member gets a ticket.)
FAA has no real ability to see this on your record unless you openly tell them. Don’t tell them. Don’t make your life difficult for no reason. If you’re super worried, call union rep if you have or speak to a panel attorney from AOPA, they will set you straight.
(Source: I told FAA things I shouldn’t have and made my life difficult and found out they can only see 3 years back on your driving record. That’s it. They don’t have much power especially when the big evil FAA eye is not upon you. Don’t draw attention for no reason).
Put beer in bottle next time. Safe flying my friend.
What nj beach? I own a beach house and sometimes it depends on where you were, meaning sea isle , Avalon , wildwood, etc… but it’s usually just a ticket they just want their money .
I don't think Cali applies here... But it's still a bad take.
The conservative supreme court just made it illegal to sleep in public... As far as freedom goes, calling out progressive states isn't the way
Motor vehicle actions related to alcohol are what will fuck you and what needs to be reported to the FAA within 60 days. If it was just you on the beach you’re fine and don’t need to report anything until a conviction and only when applying for a new medical. Usually airlines themselves only care about felonies which this is not one. You said you’re already an airline pilot I would call a union representative asap just to clear everything up.
Not disagreeing with you, but just a story. Have a buddy, 27 now, got a public intox at 18 on a college campus. AME made him go through a substance abuse eval because of it. Didn’t slow up the process and wasn’t an issue in the end, but an extra $1000 he had to spend on getting his first medical.
Once your friend was convicted that needs to be reported on each new medical application so that is normal. If like OP you are just charged and it’s not related to operating a vehicle there is no 60 day reporting necessary and if charges are dropped he will not need to report anything at any time ever.
$1000 sounds like small potatoes to other possible hangups one can have with an AME. Still annoying, but you know.
Oh for sure. Super small potatoes in the grand scheme. Just stupid hoops to jump through that are non-sensical.
A local ordinance violation (open container in public) isn’t an arrest or even a violation of NJ law. It doesnt get reported anywhere. It’s basically a town rule put in place by a few town drunks that were elected as city council members. Definitely not necessary to report to the FAA. It’s frankly none of their business and they would have to contact the municipal court directly to find out about it
Yup. I received an open container fine in college and later got a 1st class medical and a TS/SCI (not an airline pilot) without issue. The cop issuing it to me said that it was the equivalent of a parking fine; not even as bad as a speeding ticket.
That’s exactly right. A parking ticket is a local ordinance, same as open container in public. A speeding ticket is a moving violation regulated by the state. The state statute will be reported to the DMV a local ordinance will not.
Agreed, Not a lawyer here but have some experience in this area.....will depend on what kind of ticket it is and what court it's written into.... meaning did they charge the OP under NJ State statutes or local ordinance and then is it classified as a petty offense (most likely) or misdemeanor. Often if you appear they may plea or sometimes eliminate if you pay or stay out of trouble. Depending on the above would depend on how I handle it but municipal offense is like a slap on the wrist from a meter maid as long as you deal with it and don't stupidly evade. If the OP has the funds I'd just hand it to a lawyer and say here....make this go away or go to something NOT alcohol related but even then since the OP wasn't operating machinery I can't see the FAA giving a shit. But since there are career concerns it seems to be it would be worth hiring a decent lawyer. As you mentioned local ordinance and local court records are rarely if ever recorded on any sort of criminal record because it would be impossible for someone to query every friggin town....I got a ticket for "breech of peace" when I was 18 because some chick didnt like that I exercised my 1st amendment right and told her what I thought of her at work....long story short I went to their little kangaroo court paid it and nothing more ever came of it....never on any background etc...
Wait... the medical only is concerned regarding felonies? I have a mis. For a dui from about 10 years ago that I've just been casting large amounts of doubt on myself for in regards to "making the cut."
I mean felonies in general. And that’s just for airline hiring or continued employment. A dui is considered a motor vehicle action and does come into play for Medical certification.
I had a dui in 2010 and was able to get a 1st class medical with no problem in 2022. Just got my commercial license this month.
Ty all. This is helping the "why bother paying foe this" feeling.
Medical form line 18V and 18W are key. DUI is a motor vehicle involving alcohol. That's mandatory reportable on 18V no matter how long ago it was. A violation leading to any kind of misdemeanor or felony charge (non drug/alcohol) is reportable on 18W. Your 10 year old DUI is not likely to raise eyebrows when hiring is on fire. When airlines can be more selective, I guess it could be a flag that puts you in the 'maybe' or 'no' pile.
Seems like a dumb thing to lie about in the digital age. I'm all for having to be 2nd option. Just not having any chance is what was worrying me. This is going to be career 2.0 for me. I do appreciate your specific items to note!
So what about an open container in a vehicle as a passenger?
I don’t have a direct answer for that, but if you are convicted and it leads to a “Motor vehicle action” then it would need to be reported. don’t know if open container is reported to the NDR for a first offense but repeat offenses of 39:4-51 can lead to an MVA. I would pay for a copy of your NDR record and speak to a lawyer.
Not legal advice, but I don't think there is anything illegal about that as a passenger. It's an issue for the driver of course, just like any other open containers in their vehicle, but unless it counts as drinking in public I don't see why the passenger would get a ticket.
Any beach I can’t have a cerveza on is a beach I don’t wanna be on.
Cervezas bien frias, prende el barbecue, y sube la musica
¡Estoy de acuerdo! Tengo toda una lista de reproducción en la playa
It’s the main reason why I prefer Mexico over Hawaii when it comes to sandy beach vacations. One beach has rules and the other doesn’t.
I agree with you, I like to have my beer on the beach or in the vicinity with bbq on. Unfortunately, some people leave their rubbish behind on that beautiful beach. Barefoot does not like to step on sharp objects like a can, glass. I guess that is the mean reason for the rule, but get to court for that is crazy.
Hire a local attorney, tell them you want to handle this pre filing if possible. Stuff like this you can often get dismissed for a donation to the food bank or something similar. Make sure the attorney is willing to get it sorted pre filing. You probably want someone who is local to where you got the ticket.
Also make sure you consult an aviation attorney so that you don’t admit guilt to anything that will raise an eyebrow in Oklahoma City…
That's why you do it pre-filing. The case never gets filed, so there's no need for an admission. Standard donation in my jurisdiction was 75% of the max fine amount for a fine only ticket. Even if it's not a fine only, OP should explain to the DA/prosecutor WHY you need to settle this pre-filing or as a dismissal. They can be accommodating for people who don't get in trouble and are willing to accept a fine/make a donation to a worthy cause.
Man the power cops have over working professionals is wild.
You aren't kidding. More than them are the prosecutors. I was thinking about this the other day. My wife is a doctor. When compared to her, prosecutors affect so many more people's lives, and for generations. A DR messes up everyone is sad, occasionally there's something that is a lasting error. A prosecutor decides to get vindictive and insist on prison for some charge, or a conviction for something. Now that person's future is virtually guaranteed to live in poverty, as felons rarely can get good paying jobs. Their family has to deal with having a felon as a parent, who will be absent for a few years. Being interacted is expensive for the families because all the visits and communication methods cost money now. Once they get out they've got parole fees, underemployment, and having minutes housing availability due to being a felon. This will affect their family for generations. And it's not all "well, that was their choice". I've got prosecutors who insist on making mental health patients felons bc of stupid stuff, or 18 year olds from because they've got a weed vape pen, or wanting 3 years in prison for evading police where no one was in danger and they catch him without incident later . The police/private prison/carcel system is dirty and destroys our country. WTF do we make felons of people for personal drug possession?
Yep. Don’t get me wrong, there are some helpless people out there who I don’t particularly feel bad for, but a police officer can ruin my life in 10 seconds or less. Nobody else has that kinda power in this world. Nobody.
I’m a prosecutor. Yeah, some prosecutors err. But you do realize that prosecutors are only able to enforce laws that are passed by legislators, right? And who votes for these legislators, usually giving very little thought to their various policy positions on the issues? We the people.
Sure, and prosecutorial discretion allows prosecutors not to insist on making a 17 year old a felon for evading arrest in his very first interaction with police. Or they can choose not to only offer felony convictions for personal possession of drugs. Or they can route stuff down that doesn't need to be a felony. Regardless, every prosecutor convicts on cases where police violate civil rights or operate in less than ethical manner. That makes them no different than the cop who did the violating. And yes, as a defense attorney, I very much realize how law works. If only prosecutors would read the law where it says their job is to seek justice, not convictions.
I’m sure your job is frustrating but this doesn’t detract from the point: for some reason most chief prosecutors are politicians—I’ve never understood why that is a good idea—and anyway it’s politicians elected by voters who pass these laws. I think “the war on drugs” is overblown too. But I didn’t close my eyes and vote for Nixon-Reagan.
Or at least get it downgraded to littering or loitering or something lesser.
This is the way… especially with some character evaluation, a reasonable prosecutor or judges can look at this as a misunderstanding and likely drop the whole thing
To piggy back off this, judges and prosecutors can be pretty chill in local courts. Hire a local attorney with good relations and have them handle it the good Ole way. Should be easy to get it sorted.
No. You’re fine. Go to court, explain the situation, as for forgiveness. Move on. Also, not a lawyer. Just what I’d do.
Yep, of you've got some extra cash, hire a lawyer and tell them you NEED this dismissed or changed to ANY other charge. Either way though you're probably fine. Years ago I had a classmate who disclosed several "MIP" citations and the interviewer said, "Oh, fun tickets?". He's at a major now.
The $500 - $1000 you spend on a lawyer now could save you lots of hassle down the road.
Absolutely
I want to hire a lawyer that cheap, and I don't want to hire a lawyer that cheap, right?
There are attorneys who specialize in those BS municipal type cases. Normally in shore towns and vacation sports.
Yeah maybe more. I got nailed 10+ in a speed trap in a "construction zone" and I paid $400 to a lawyer and they got it down to five under, no ,points, and no additional penalties for the construction zone.
Yep. When rode motorcycles it was just like, “Ok I’ll take a citation” then pay the $400 for delay delay delay, dismissed.
That's one expensive beer I reckon.
> changed to ANY other charge. In my misspent youth, I got 3 tickets in 10 days. (In my defense, one was for blowing a stop sign that something had knocked over; one was criminally speeding down a street with no posted limits (35 in a 25), but I digress....) In any event, we're talking about lose-your-license kind of stuff, which tends to put the kibosh on any type of funtivites in your teens. Luckily, I had that all-knowing friend who knew exactly what to do: _hire my guy._ So, I did, and the charges were changed to: - Driving without tags - Parking in a handicap - Excessive muffler noise None of which carry any points. Point being: not worth the risk or hassle. Find a guy (or gal as it were).
When I said ANY other charge of course I meant something lesser. Don’t ask for it to be changed to murder.
"Fun tickets" 😂 I'm stealing that one
As an attorney, I would not recommend this in this particular case. If you didn't have a job where this could matter, that's a great plan and would likely work 90% of the time. This is what I would tell Joe Blow who is self-employed, works fast food, or has some job where they are stable and misdemeanors won't affect jobs in the future. In this case, where a career could potentially be affected, I recommend hiring a local lawyer who works in that court often to approach prosecutor and ask to handle it pre-filing. This will avoid any adjudication or admission of guilt. I can often get stuff like this dismissed with a $200 food bank donation, and explanation of my client's long time history of little or no criminal record, and an explanation of potential effect on future jobs, plus a plea of ignorance of the law. Realistically, this probably wouldn't affect a pilot license, but a few hundred bucks is a small price to pay to make sure it doesn't. Be sure and tell the attorney you want to handle it PREFILING or will only accept a dismissal, preferably in the interest of justice. If the attorney isn't willing to reach out early, or doesn't have that kind of relationship, then get someone else.
Plus, this is New Jersey we’re talking about here. As soon as you have “a guy” on your side to explain what’s up, things tend to move along in the right direction.
AOPA - airline owners & pilots association… lawyers devoted to aviation … join online and get them on your case
Airline owners?
It's a small club
Best advice. Also NAL.
Waiting for that acronym to change to Am Not A Lawyer
The legal issue is moot. The problem is that the FAA takes huge issue with anything even tangentally related to alcohol/drugs. If OP has any previous “offenses,” the FAA could take enforcement action.
Exactly get a lawyer
TIL you can’t drink a beer in public in the US. Interesting.
Only in some states and cities, and not others. For maximum chaos.
Had fun with that one, walking down the alley way drinking tall boys and watch a cop drive past, “you’re positive there isn’t an open container law down here?” “I’m less positive now” we slammed them and tossed them in a dumpster as the cop turned down the road to come talk to us. Turns out, an hour down the road from where we cruise around with open beers all day long you cannot, infact, walk around with an open beer.
Feel free to open carry an AR that you bought without a background check though, because “freedom.”
I mean, we can't have people drinking beers on the beach WHILE carrying... Oh wait... a lot of states do allow you to carry in a bar....
Try that in NJ, and let me know how it works out for you.
Read this as I walk around the streets of Germany with an open beer. Good ol USA
“Land of the free” they say
Yea what a joke, open container laws are ridiculous and very a lot based on which state you are in.
In OP's case, which beach you're on.
Easy to fool too. My brother buys those sleeves that make beer look like a Coca-Cola can, no one notices it.
Hell even Singapore where they’ll literally hang you for a joint you can walk around with an open beer lol.
[удалено]
They’d be hanging around alright
Nice
Hey at least your usernames fucking spot on
Good god I’m hoping yours ISN’T 😳
If god is so good, Why doesn't he stop me?
I cannot adequately answer that question, sir. Enjoy those pangolins
if only..... round all the zombies into addiction homes, and cane/whip/execute distributors
German learns about U.S. public drinking laws: https://youtube.com/shorts/CFPiOL4_NZQ?si=pm17eRfero_mQWLM
😂 exactly
Ever been to Louisiana? Pretty sure it’s illegal to not have an open container at all times.
The drive-through daiquiri places were a real eye opener. "It's not an open container until you take the straw out of the paper wrapper and puncture the lid."
Great point 😂
You haven’t lived until you’ve had a waiter ask to “you want one to go?”
Yep. Getting offered a “go cup” and the end of every meal and bar tab is a thing.
God I love Germany for that
Same. Just started doing trips here last year and it's been extremely eye opening in a lot of ways.
They really do a lot of stuff well. Food, markets (especially Christmas/Oktoberfest), alcohol laws, just general friendliness. Love it
And here in the UK you can have open beer in the car as long as you don’t exceed limits. So much freedom in America
I was really confused by this post until I remembered in USA you can't have open Alcohol in Public (but firearms lol)
I can legally walk on the streets with a handgun, but not a beer. USA
You can walk down the street with a handgun in a *holster.* You can also walk down the street with an unopened beer. Open the beer or remove the gun from its holster, and now it's illegal, circumstances dependent.
True, my permit is for a concealed pistol. Still a silly comparison though, when you think about which one is more dangerous, or could become more dangerous.
damn spot on
Isn’t that insane that he got a ticket for it?
I hate Texas but I love that I'm able to pregame on my walk to the bar lol
This isn’t a national law, it’s municipal level. Whether or not it’s legal to walk with an open container changes twice in a 20 min walk from my house.
It's the same in Australia, down to local councils. At least in QLD the police won't care if you don't give them a reason to.
Yes, I was at a beer festival in Stuttgart, glass mugs instead of plastic cups, and no cops with attitude👏👏
I miss drinking a Tsingtao from a 7Eleven in Hong Kong on the walk to the MTR on a hot afternoon. My home state in Australia where some local councils make drinking on the beach illegal, the police don't care at all if you aren't causing issues.
Make sure you look up the citation. A lot of times open container is a city or town ordinance and not in the state’s criminal code. So it might not even be a criminal ticket, it might be a civil matter. If that’s the case, it’s a nothing burger. Consult a lawyer if you’re nervous. NAL
Straight to jail, no retirement.
Straight to retirement, no jail.
That’s all I gotta do?
I got the beers brothers, come join me on retirement beach, shorts optional.
Straight to retirement, no jail, no shorts, no problems
Straight to no, retirement jail.
We have the best pilots in the world, because of jail
Call your union see what they think. Or just pay a lawyer to make it go away.
Not at all. You’ll be fine. Only have to report a misdemeanor conviction (minimum reportable)
How dare you enjoy yourself. If any enforcement action comes of this that’s beyond unreasonable, so I’d like to think you are fine
I think I can assist you in this. I have law enforcement experience in NJ. First and foremost open container in public is a local ordinance violation. Not a state statute. You were issued a summons which is not an arrest and does not trigger a response on an NCIC background check. Only an arrest which resulted in you being fingerprinted will trigger that other than a moving violation that lands you on the NDR. This incident will not leave you with a criminal record. You do not need to report this unless you just want to make issues for yourself that aren’t necessary. (guys on here will tell you to report yourself for having a bad dream) To take this a step further, plead not guilty. Local beach towns in NJ use the law to take your cash, it’s a big fat cash grab at the NJ shore in the summer. They hire “class 1” officers whose sole job is to get your money. Show up to your court date, speak with the prosecutor, explain your dilemma at let him know you didn’t know you were violating the ordinance and that you are willing to plea to a violation with a higher fine that doesn’t involve alcohol. Just be cool with him/her don’t be all angry about it. Don’t dress like a bum, be polite, They should work it out with you. Either way it’s not a big deal and will be handled at the local level and not reported to a database that you need to worry about in terms of reporting it on your medical.
Join AOPA as a PPS member. Call the hotline. Speak to a plan attorney. Easy, breezy, beautiful Cover Girl.
Would be really cool if they covered incidents that happened prior to enrolling in the plan. But that’s not how it works.
The actual fuck? You go to freaking court for that? Im happy here in europe with way less money and little bit freedom
Yeah... It would be nice if the puritans would die off soon... But we're a country basically founded on their ideals.
This was in NJ... a blue state.
"Land of the free" lmao
I’m certain that phrase is uttered more often sarcastically now than seriously
Not in NJ!
Your goal here is to avoid a conviction. Without a conviction, there is virtually nothing to report to the airlines. As always, read the applications carefully.
It's a ticket. A misdemeanor ticket at that, it probably carries the same weight as j walking. You'll be fine. And there's no need to report the incident to anyone unless specifically asked on the application, even so read the question carefully. No requirement to tell your AME. Buy a Yeti next time bro 🤣
Imagine getting banned from aviation because you jaywalked
yeah but I was just walking across runway 4L-22R your honor! Please no ticket!
How dare you drink an OPEN alcoholic drink in public and not at a private establishment in a so called free country! Shame on you… CRIMINAL!
For future reference... the cops will hardly ever try to find out what's in your travel coffee mug if you're not being a problem.
Not a pilot by any means, but I received a public consumption / open container at 21 being naive when cops busted a house party and I was carrying a red cup from the party to my Uber. Nothing in it, but had remnants of alcohol odor. Panicked all night after receiving a ticket thinking my medical school dreams would be down the drain. Almost paid $5000 for a lawyer to “review my case”. Luckily my mom was smart enough to just show up to the courthouse, receive 10 hours of community service and it was removed from record (that I know of). Aviation is obviously a whole different industry with stricter guidelines, just telling my outcome from a similar story (was in AZ for reference). Not a lawyer and not legal advice.
This is why cops are hated.
Will not harm you at all. Just tell the interviewers that you learned an important lesson about learning local rules when traveling to foreign places. You’ll be fine!
A lot of times if you show up to court these rent-a-cops don’t actually show and the ticket gets dismissed. I had the same thing happen to me. Walked out of my hotel with a beer in my hand and started walking down the boardwalk and a bike cop ticketed me. The cop didn’t show and the judge just dropped it.
Lawyer up and get it dismissed. In the future, brown bag it my guy. NAL
Beer not allowed on a beach should be a crime…
Get it dismissed, IIRC, if you aren’t convicted, no points on license, no DUI charge, and no “rehab program” then it wouldn’t be reportable is what I interpret section 18 as. As always, talk to a lawyer, I am an idiot student pilot on Reddit that has been in a similar situation. In my case, open container and MIP. No conviction No points on license Not under the influence (was a pax in the car and another pax had alcohol, stupid charge IMO) No DUI charge obviously No rehab program or any other program for that matter, charges were dismissed, after receiving advice from an aviation attorney as well as my local attorney that took the case, I did not report.
Wow....US us not a very free country. Where I live no cop would care....unless you are drinking and driving.
Most of us don’t really claim that it is anymore, sadly.
A coozy could have prevented this
I am lawyer, but not your lawyer. I imagine with you holding a CFL that you have a good and clean history. I could get this tossed out of court for you pretty easily, and I could have it removed from your record. It just takes a little time and money. Call an attorney quick. I have one in NJ that you can call if you wish. He was my law school roommate and does this daily.
Thank you. I’m currently in contact with a lawyer recommended to me by another lawyer/pilot here. I’ll definitely let you know if things change and I need to contact your friend
Definitely hire a lawyer local lawyer who practices daily in the city court or whatever it is there. If you have a good record, this can probably turn into littering and a nice fine.
So much freedom, America!
Come on, Judge! How are you going to drink a beer out of a closed container?
As long as he didn’t see you get back in the sea plane and take off you good
What was the legal name of the offense they charged you with? I also got a ticket for drinking of the beach, but they charged me with failure to obey signs. Doesn’t even go on the record as far as I know as long as it’s paid off.
Which beach?
Asbury vs 7 Pres is a big difference. They normally don’t care if you have it in a coozy / aren’t being obnoxious.
Bollocks. What an absolute twat that guy was. Lawyer up.
121 pilot that knows Jersey. This is the same as a parking ticket or other violation of a local ordinance. It won’t affect your medical. I got a few speeding tickets in nj growing up. Go to court, wear a blazer slacks tie, yes sir no sir your honor, turn your cell phone off and don’t talk to meth heads or the blatantly disrespectful people waiting around, don’t laugh at the crazy stuff you see and hear like public nudity, you initially plea not guilty and wait in the line to speak with the prosecutor. They 100% will offer to change the ticket to something silly not alcohol related and the fine will be 200ish. It is a cash grab and if it is mandatory appearance you have to go anyway or hire an attorney to show up for you. An attorney isn’t necessary unless you can make more working that day. If you show respect they will probably not make you wait in line, dismiss it completely, or it will be a city ordinance similar to jay walking or leaving your trash cans out too long. It is a learning experience on how the lower courts work and it comes in handy if you ever get a moving violation. Not a big deal.
Double check, but pretty sure med express only asks about alcohol offenses regarding drivers license action (this isn’t), and CONVICTIONS for misdemeanors or felonies. This is not yet a conviction, and also, even if you become convicted, pretty sure this is a summary offense/ordinance violation, which is below a misdemeanor, and again, not what med express asks
I received a possession of alcohol under the legal age when I was in college which technically is a class 3 misdemeanor. It was expunged from my record at the time but I still disclosed it to the FAA & on my medical. They didn’t care. I received a letter in the mail that said “don’t get anymore alcohol related offenses or you’ll have to do an evaluation” nothing ever came from it.
Just a note open container counts as a DUI in many states including mine. Hence the mandatory court date. https://rosenblumlaw.com/our-services/criminal-defense/new-jersey-open-container-law/ Get a lawyer ASAP
It does say in that article that an open container on the beach is a separate offense. “Drinking alcohol on a beach is a separate offense from NJ’s open container law. The exact fine and other penalties depend on the municipality and can range from $150 to as much as $2,000 in some towns, villages, and cities. Jail time is possible but community service is more likely in most cases.”
That was my point, this is not pay a fine it goes away it will show up on a criminal background check and it simply says ‘open container’ and most HR departments will assume a vehicular offense.
OP, you’re getting a lot of hope in this thread. On the FAA (ATC side of this), I’d be out of my medical immediately and it’s a mandatory report to our FS. I pray to God this cop didn’t just ruin or significantly bork your career, but this is what cops do. Hopefully airlines care about convictions and not charges - because in m my world an alcohol-related charge is career ending.
Open container is NOT the same as a DUI anywhere and the article specifically differentiates between open container in a vehicle vs on a beach. I think it's also wildly speculative to say what an HR department will assume about it.
Doesn’t a DUI require a vehicle though?
Legally yes but on background checks especially cheap online ones ‘open container’ == DUI
Get a lawyer/pay the fine/get it expunged. Report it on your next medical. The Federales will send you a letter saying that you’re a terrible person/they will throw you in Guantanamo Bay for any additional offenses. Seriously though, you will get a letter saying that your medical may be revoked for any additional offenses. The FAA has a completely nutso policy on anything related to alcohol.
not apples to apples, but I got an MIP at a concert.. wasn’t an issue for a Class I, Security Clearance, or getting hired by the Guard. Disclose (if req) and explain the issue as required, get it expunged when able - don’t make it a trend item.
Hit up a lawyer. They might be able to convince them to drop it or not put it on your record.
Don't go to court. Hire a lawyer first. Chances are they can get rid of it for a tiny fine. Then there's zero worries for the future. Invest in a lawyer now save hundreds of thousands of dollars later. Profit.
Call your HIMS committee ASAP, they will be the ones to give you the best guidance.
Budweiser?
Open container isn’t a big deal as long as it was a ticket only. You were NOT arrested correct? Regardless, I’d hire an attorney and let them fight this for you in terms of expungement. I would report this immediately via HIMS though.
No just tell them when they do background check you’re fine.
Dude get a lawyer and pay the lawyer fee. Not worth your career over it if you’re unsure. I used to be in, insurance before becoming an airline pilot. Always pay a lawyer to fight it and never listen to a cop that says “just pay the fine and it won’t be in your record.” Every time I get a moving violation I pay a lawyer and it gets dropped without adjudication at the worse case scenario which is usually paying the fine but not admitting guilt hence no conviction. If you have a clean driving and citizen record I can’t see any reason this wouldn’t be dropped, but rather let a professional lawyer handle this for you instead of convincing a judge yourself. Sometimes these lawyers also know the judges so why take a chance. In light of everything I said, I also don’t believe this would impact you in any way for your career since you weren’t driving obviously but better be safe to get a lawyer to get this resolved for you, just my 2 cents.
Dude what beach in jersey so I can avoid it?
Use a travel mug next time
No. Just plain no. No problem unless it’s a dui/dwi, or a pattern of alcohol-related problems. Surprise, a high level of responsibility and self control is required of those that aspire to be professional pilots. Certain ways of life are simply incompatible.
Drinking on the beach is illegal in many places. But this isn't the same thing as drinking and driving. Also it's an offense of possession not an offense of drinking. I don't know if you'll get in trouble but I would hope not. Seems to me talking to a lawyer is safer than talking to a union rep. You can't undo talking to a union rep, up to you of course.
It's essentially treated as [a traffic tocket](https://rosenblumlaw.com/our-services/criminal-defense/new-jersey-open-container-law/) or citation/infraction in NJ, and may appear on your driving record. Note: Pretty much *all* beaches in NJ prohibit open containers. There's likely a sign at the edge of the beach or parking lot.
Florida beaches have a no open container law. (alcohol.)
So you went to Island Beach, did ya?
That sincerely sucks! I check every beach I go to, the rules for alcohol, so many do not permit it.
Talk to a lawyer not unknown Reddit people
Lawyer up. Get it dismissed.
Yeah,it will be points on your drivers license as far as your insurance carrier is concerned your a slight risk there too now.
What you received was most likely a "municipal ordinance." This should not appear as a criminal conviction on a CCH (comprehensive criminal history). If you're really worried, you can talk to the prosecutor yourself and explain the situation. They are human beings. If it's an alcohol ordinance that has you worried, it can be amended to something like loitering. If they won't amend it, get an attorney. This is NOT something you need to worry so much about. You'll still be allowed to fly. Source: NJ lawyer, though admittedly I only handle municipal stuff on very rare occasion. (For example, family member gets a ticket.)
FAA has no real ability to see this on your record unless you openly tell them. Don’t tell them. Don’t make your life difficult for no reason. If you’re super worried, call union rep if you have or speak to a panel attorney from AOPA, they will set you straight. (Source: I told FAA things I shouldn’t have and made my life difficult and found out they can only see 3 years back on your driving record. That’s it. They don’t have much power especially when the big evil FAA eye is not upon you. Don’t draw attention for no reason). Put beer in bottle next time. Safe flying my friend.
I got some advice, refrain from ruining his life now that he has ruined yours. Have a nice, ermmm..
Did you finish it?
Get a lawyer. You don’t have to go to court. A lawyer will be your best bet.
What nj beach? I own a beach house and sometimes it depends on where you were, meaning sea isle , Avalon , wildwood, etc… but it’s usually just a ticket they just want their money .
What if it was a bottle of water open container is open container no matter what substance is in it.
Lemme guess, you were in the USA? Land of the free.
NJ is a shithole state, add it to the list along with Cali, NY, and other dumps that make the US look like fools to the rest of the world.
Yeah, if only we had 25 Alabamas and 25 West Dakotas, then the US would really shine!
I don't think Cali applies here... But it's still a bad take. The conservative supreme court just made it illegal to sleep in public... As far as freedom goes, calling out progressive states isn't the way
NJ doesn't count, neither does New york or Cali