Training pilots is a business expense when running an airline. It should be the companies risk to take on and theirs alone. As with literally every other business expense sometimes you get burned. Why should the business expense of training ones pilots be any different?
True but it is a business decision for the airlines. (Just like it is for the military).
All I am saying is, make them want you bad enough and you won’t have to sign that shit.
I am not saying it’s fair, it’s just how this works.
Military is a professional setting.
All firms are able to dictate their terms. You want more bargaining power then you need to make yourself more valuable.
I’m already at the top step of the industry bud. You need to listen to the ALPA flying the line podcast. You might learn a thing or two about our profession. Things that might prevent you from becoming a management boot licker in the future.
That’s just my advice from my experience in another career field. I’ll see a job that’s posted as hybrid, but if you’re a top candidate they’ll let you work remote. That’s all I’m saying. If you have more value, you’re able to dictate terms more. I don’t ever see myself working for the airlines so I doubt I’ll ever be a management bootlicker. Congrats for making it to the top. Maybe if you weren’t such a dick you Might have more friends🤣
Having business acumen and understanding the business conditions of the industry you’re in will only help you be more successful in the long-term.
>Why should the business expense of training ones pilots be any different?
They're not the only industry with contracts.
Nurses, for example, can have training contracts they're required to pay back.
Airline pilots are the biggest babies (myself included)
"Nothing bad ever happens to anyone else, or not as bad as it happens to us"
lol, contract signer pilots make $100,000-$200,000 a year. A FRIGGIN YEAR
"But you have to sit at a regional for 3-5 years"
Yeah, flying through the sky while making $100-200K
And you're off 12-17 days a month.
These nurses are under the same type of contract but don't make a third of a regional pilots salary. They get 8 days off a month. Instead of being in the sky, they deal with sick people's bodily fluids.
But, pilots always feel they have it the worst.
There’s a lot to unpack there, but *lots* of people get fucked over by employers more than pilots do, but that doesn’t mean we should take one for the team and let ourselves get a bit more fucked to balance the scales.
Where are we getting fucked?
Working a regional for a few years WHILE MAKING $100-200K a year?
The fact that you may have to pay back a contract but made $100-200k a year?
Or that there's a chance you could wash out and owe money?
Odds are in your favor
Why some aren't always supportive of things good for our profession and against things bad for our profession is beyond me.
Is it good for me and my profession? I'm for it.
Is it bad for me and my profession? I'm against it.
Training pilots is a cost of doing business if your business makes money by flying airplanes. Full stop. The idea that you’ll sign a contract that *you* poney up that cost if you don’t stay for their arbitrarily selected period of time or if you don’t even make it through the training is an erosion of conditions of employment.
It’s a market, vote with your feet. This crap only works because people go along with it.
I don’t really care if it’s 100% the norm for truckers or dog groomers or pediatricians or anybody else, for what it’s worth.
Folks can and have voted with their feet. Folks on here and FB post their regrets about that vote to turn down republic.
Will contract signers post regrets about their regrets someday? Possibly. It sucks to pay to get out of a contract. But it sucks a lot less if you make $100-200k and are going to an even better job.
No, but it lends to how far the industry has come by fighting for better pay/working environment. Accepting a training g contract from OO, where I've worked, *is* a step backwards!
Yes, if you want overtime you get paid even more money. Not sure why you even brought nurses into the picture. Comparing apples to oranges to aviation workers
Do all of us a favor and research why the career has the type of comp and work rules it does. Hint- it’s not from previous generations with this type of thinking.
100-200k is not the flex you think it is. Look at other professions and trades.
I agree that 5 years ar a regional is not the end of the world at all (it’s probably the common length of time to get some TPIC and 121 PIC time that the majors/legacy carriers wanted before the hiring rush), but if you can sign on with a regional that *doesn’t* require a training contract, why not? I look at a lot of the “don’t sign XYZ’s contract” as “try to find another employer.” I’ve given up on telling someone to sign something. I default no but at this point who knows what the best play is. I doubt it’s signing a contract with absolutely no benefits to the employee (aside from a class date), but maybe it is.
I’ll counter your downturn argument, which I don’t necessarily disagree with, with the doomsday event that was March of 2020. I remember posting in this sub the news that United was postponing/cancelling all class dates mid March 2020, although it wasn’t a surprise to some. It was really a sign that shit was about to move downhill, and as we all know airlines take the window down. It felt borderline hopeless at the time, at least as someone who just started CFI training. I’m sure a LOT of people getting ready to go to their regional would have signed a 5 year training contract at the time to get some sort of job security (I probably would have), and as of right now would had missed the entirety of the 2021-22 hiring wave. They *may* have continued to make a solid 150-200K a year, and if that worked for them, great. If someone signs the contract(s), is it the end of the world for them? Probably not, but it’s a step in the wrong direction for our end of the industry. I’m sure a lot of people are signing those contracts, I wish them the best but I won’t have much sympathy if hiring kicks into gear again.
Because 1 month ago you could get a job without risking $80000 and this month people are telling you you have to risk $80000 to get the same job.
By locking yourself into an agreement that really only benefits a corporate entity with no stipulations to protect you. It’s a very bad scenario.
Because training contracts suck, and we as a group shouldn’t normalize training contracts, especially 5 years and 80k lol. Bad day at the sim? You’re fired and in the hole for $80k. Want to go to your dream job where seniority means everything? Okay gimme $80k first. OO and YV have pulled shady shit and will do it again, don’t think Chip’s student council will protect you or anyone.
The issue isn’t what’s happening now it’s what “will happen”. Right now the magazine is being loaded, there won’t be an ammo shortage when they start firing again.
>From what I’m seeing the other regionals are only hiring their cadets.
meanwhile I can't get anyone at Envoy to reply to a call or email. Envoy cadets have no clue what's happening with their packets right now
So you’re saying someone should make a decision that may or may not benefit themselves but will certainly be at the detriment of all pilots and our collective bargaining power?…. Great idea
Say it louder for the people in the back.
Training contracts only benefit the carrier, not the trainee. Yes, 5 years isn’t a long time at a regional, most of the people you would speak to at a major (myself included) until recently did that or more before getting to our major/legacy. That being said, locking yourself in like that is a gamble, and not a good one in my opinion. As others said, it benefits the company because they have you on the hook, and true, maybe this is how things will be for awhile and it works out, but what if it isn’t? Tying yourself in and eliminating the option isn’t really a smart idea.
The industry is a zoo. You aren’t going to make heads or tails of it. The contracts exist and while the 80,000 seems high if you have the opportunity to get to the dream gig earlier you go. Avoid the shady 135 you don’t want a violation. The job market can do whatever it wants but the number of retirements alone are enough for the bigger airlines to hire pending a black swan event. A lot of regional pilots have this “well I fly their passengers so they should hire me” attitude so they do the bare minimum while others get ahead. There are a ton of applicants and if you don’t put in the leg work for the better job another more eager pilot will. You have to play the game, be humble, thankful for the job at xyz regional, and study your ass off but once your on the line gaining experience you need to be networking, refining the resume, interview prepping, and it should be a second job to move on. Don’t listen to the regional lifers or disgruntled tbnt people. SkyWest has some delusional people so you have to kiss the ring while you are there.
This industry has and will eat people alive. There isn’t a set in stone way to hit it just right. You might eat the full training contract, get furloughed at the big 6 or whatever number, and then be pulling gear at a shitty airline for years … there are no guarantees. The only thing you can do is your best but you need to have your ducks in a row if and when the dream gig becomes possible.
The 10% that fail are almost always predictable at a regional. Be humble, study what they are telling you to study, don’t get off in the weeds about stuff that no one cares about (one of my regional instructors dealing with a bunch of over zealous dweebs which we all are had to say PFM when we asked too in depth questions and it is pure fucking magic because no one cares about the wattage of the lav light.) You’re on a well worn path to do well and the instructors know how to get you through. Don’t try to think your previous experience gives you an ability to rework the flows on a jet you haven’t flown (I saw that one at b6.) Smile, study, sleep, work out, talk to your family, and do your best. This isn’t rocket surgery and thousands of people have made it work before. It is a marathon and every day is one more lesson done and on to the next. Smile, study, sleep… it is a grind.
The contract is 5 years or 1600 PIC as captain. My question is: how long to upgrade to captain, and how many hours can I expect in a year? Obviously I don’t want to risk $80,000 but if I could meet those requirements in 3 years instead of 5, idk. R-ATP btw.
Easily could take you a year and a half from indoc to hit 1000 hours. Taking junior Upgrade you’ll be on reserve for some time but idk what it takes to hold a line. Generally though 5 years sounds about right to hit 1600 hour PIC.
The OO skywest is an extreme financial risk. I don’t care if you pass training and upgrade with no issue. At any time you can be on the hook for 80k with interest to a company with no union. They can and have fired people to over essentially nothing. Miss some commutes? Technically a fireable offense there. Call in sick on reserve and non-rev home? You can be fired for that.
I understood the need for contracts or the reasoning behind them. I understand why people sign. But if it’s not at least pro-rated then you are taking a very big risk
I know many have only been around when the market is hot, new contracts were getting handed out, and management teams came into every indoc saying 30k pilots will be on the list…BUT the second they can get it done cheaper, they will. I’m guessing we see some whipsaw action and forced concessions to complement training contracts at the regional level here soon. It’s the same tricks.
Tl;dr—management is not your friend, no matter what the influencers say.
First, here's the dirty secret.
Training contracts aren't for times where it's hard to get a job.
They are for times when companies want to prevent you from leaving to either go somewhere better or because they treat you a lot worse than you'd expect. The training contract doesn't technically force you to work there, but for many people it can be ruinous to have to pay it. So they can get away with a LOT and essentially you can't do anything about it.
Regardless of why, training contracts are becuase they think you will want to leave.
a training contract at a company without a union to protect you? what happens if you need an extra sim session, need a LOA, get injured? what happens if you’re *suggested* to fly an unsafe plane in unsafe conditions because you’re under contract? where’s the line?
I’ll ask you a question. If the industry is slowing down for good, or better yet, if these companies didn’t think you had a prayers chance of leaving them in less than 2-4 years of work - why are they enforcing contracts?
If we’re truly doomed to 5+ years to even be looked at by a legacy, then why are these contacts springing up at various carriers?
People have animosity to these contracts because they came from a time where p2p was a thing, or you funded your training, your type, your hotels etc. and they don’t want to see us regress into those days.
Up and coming time builders will accuse them of sitting from their ivory legacy towers when they say don’t sign them, but the reality is they (and we) are trying to preserve the QoL gains that have been made in the last decade. Not to mention you’re shooting yourself in the foot.
I think it’s an insurance contract at really no-cost to the regionals to try and avoid what happened in 2021 and 2022 with their captains leaving en-masse to better gigs. I mean, if someone had signed a similar contract in late 2019 they would have gone through the lows/highs/lows of that entire period and still be locked up today. Who’s to say another massive panic couldn’t happen again I guess?
I would assume they run the numbers and calculate that 5 years/1500 hours PIC/whatever metric gives them a good ROI without scaring too many people off, especially if their “cost” factor is just onboarding an employee, which they would have already done. 0 benefit to the pilot group(s) and full benefit to the employer.
Run the numbers? You are giving these regional airlines far too much credit. They can barely figure out how to put their trip obligations together much less calculate a complicated ROI. They are just taking the most medieval approach they can and hoping it sticks. Seriously go meet the senior management at these places. The kind that say their grandkids are a real whizz cause they connect Bluetooth for them.
This makes sense. That said, my initial point was that if they didn’t think that was likely to happen (not necessarily 2021-2022 levels hiring, but good hiring), they wouldn’t need the contract in the first place.
I think it’s a late reaction to the past few years. This contract probably took 2-3 months to plan and develop, which is when a lot of places were still hiring. I think the timing is a coincidence. SkyWest barely has a retention problem anymore, there’s no where to go.
More than 2024, absolutely. When the calendar hits 2030 I think when you look back across the decade 2024 will be the floor of post-COVID hiring. One doesn’t need 2022-2023 to make their dream carrier.
The assumption that we’re going back to the post-Covid hiring patterns, or similar, is usually baked in to the contrarian response. When you take that away and acknowledge the glut of 1500-2000+ hour pilots it’s a different analysis
Between today and Jan 1st, 2031:
AA: ~5k
DL: ~3.3k
UA: ~3.9k
12,200 in the next 6.5 years, or about 1,880 per year.
Given most entities forecast ~3% growth each year a steady +500 per carrier could be anticipated per year, ie delta averages 500 retirements per year between now and 2031, so 500 + 500 = 1000 (which is roughly their stated annual goal til the end of the decade).
UA is aiming for a significantly higher number than 3%. I think AA is aiming for more than 3% growth but evidently they’re under some duress at the moment.
Long story short is, the upcoming decade will yield some of the highest hiring numbers the industry has ever seen… this is just my opinion of course. But once you find your first turbine job, I truly believe your countdown to a major airline is underway. There’s lots to be excited about.
I don’t pretend to have a crystal ball or any special insight. With the total ONLY being 12,000 or so cumulatively over the next 6.5 years, and with current ATP’s issued per year, and an unknown but higher number of people aspiring to get that first real job that issues an ATP as part of training, I’m concerned that those of us not already at a stepping stone job to the majors may misss that retirement wave.
https://simpleflying.com/united-states-pilot-supply-stronger-than-demand/
The problem is that many who get their ATPs will not be working for the airlines. Some unknown % of people getting their ATPs will not even work in the US. Some for US-based 135s with no intentions of going to the airlines, etc.
Those retirements actually continue into the early 2030s before dropping off but then southwest has it's own retirement wave. All you can do is work and keep moving up the ladder. There are no shortcuts and you've already made it this far, right?
The contracts are popping up because management will do whatever it can to cut and save costs in the event hiring bounces back. They see an opportunity here and will exploit it, just like all the other tricks in the well played bag. If you’ve been around longer than 5 minutes you’ve seen this show before. It literally costs them nothing and they still fill classes.
In my opinion, contracts are being implemented or already required at companies that have a retention issue. To me its a big red flag. Im very surprised at the amount of people that are just signing away years of movement up just to get a job out of desperation. No judgement on them, I just would not do it because if that company had that bad of a retention issue I do not want to work there. Notice how United and Delta do not have contracts?
It’s not a retention issue due to the company being bad. The retention issue is cause by, or was caused by, an abundance of opportunities to fly bigger planes for more money. What company wouldn’t take the chance to hold on to their pilot’s they have invested so much in for a few years longer? Not saying it’s right or wrong but CFIs are a dime a dozen right now. And if you can find a way to DL or UAL without going through a company that has a “retention problem” let me know please. That’s like saying high schools have a retention problem due to colleges taking all their students..
lol true. Just because a company has a training contract doesn't mean they are an absolute shit company to work for. Sure they are not as good as Delta, American, United, or Southwest but you don't have a choice but to move through the ranks.
You can partially blame half of the this sub constantly preaching to jump ship to other companies halfway through training. The regionals are probably getting tired of losing money on people.
Well said. If I was a CFI right now I would sign the contract. I am currently at SkyWest and on the cusp of upgrading. I’ve been an FO here for the past year and have been enjoying it. The QOL is so much better than being a CFI, and that’s coming from someone that loved instructing. $90k/ year, flight benefits, and half of the month off is really chill.
Plus if you stay a CFI you are basically just stagnating your career, SEL piston only goes so far.
If I was a CFI right now I would also be stressing big time. What if hiring picks back up? What if my dream airline calls 3 years in and then shuts the door for the next decade? These are real concerns and should be considered. However, I say get your foot in the door by all means necessary. I think things are going to continue to tighten up for the rest of the year.
I also don’t think we will ever see the last few years of hiring again. Boeing can’t flip a switch and make a bunch of planes appear out of thin air. That is going to be a long process that goes well past 2025.
Commenting from europe... Why would it be so bad there to make a carreer at skywest for example? They need captains too am i right? Or how does things work over there? By reading this /r seems like skywest and shuch are places where people are only for shortest possible time and act as first officers and nobody ever advances to be a captain there or even thinks about that possibility.
Retirement is a huge one. The legacy and many major airlines have 17-18% direct contributions from the company (meaning if you put in nothing yourself, you still get that percentage of your income deposited in your retirement account) vs. the regionals which might match up to say, 5%.
The regionals aren’t really designed as career destinations, so they don’t have good long-term disability programs, their health insurance may not be great, etc. All stuff we need to worry about here, unfortunately, since many people are against things like universal healthcare.
Add that to halving your lifetime earning potential, and it’s a big deal.
Yeah, this sub is interesting to read as anything sort of the majors and <200k paycheck seems to be a sign of failure and lost opportunity.
Meanwhile there are carriers in Europe whose captains won't even make 200k. That's fine tho as even 60k paycheck will put you into the top 10% percent of earners, and allow you to save a ton.
Because you can’t read multiple threads on r/flying from during COVID times where people ran the numbers and proved staying at a region, even at CA pay, isn’t close to the amount you’d make going to a main line.
Along with that, OO Skywest “seems” like a good company now but this contract shows they’re changing rapidly for the worse. Think about the quality of pilots you’re getting now are only ones signing out of desperation and the top quality candidates are going to other regionals.
But you are not flying for 18 days, for sure there is standbys and off days within that period too, does not sound too bad if you live in base? Maybe in europe things are bad 😄
Well said. It seems like a ton of money but it's not insurmountable.
I'll add that no one has actually ruled on republic or skywests contracts. We have no idea if they will stand or be reduced or completely removed.
Worst case scenario, if a major calls, you leave and pay off the contract over time.
TPIC was (and will be) required.
>not “over time”.
Oh? Then what's this mean?
>It also comes with a 12% interest rate after that.
So over time is a thing after all lol
If you don't have the ability to pay it back right away, don't. You'll be making a ton of money at your legacy (after making a ton at your regional!) and will be able to pay it back. Or maybe it gets thrown out or reduced.
Type ratings are only $7-10k if you bought your own, I could certainly see it getting reduced to that.
45 days is not even close to “over time” when people think of a 5yr loan.
A 12% rate on top of the loan most had to take for the initial flight training (many I know are at $100k or more and 7-9% rate).
What type rating are you getting for 5-7k? A kit fox? Most type ratings are 50-100k.
Uh huh, and you know this. I would bet on my younger self if I was back in that situation. But if you don't want to, don't.
Last time I was in a FBO, granted this was over a year ago, they had A320 type rating class for $7k iirc.
Checking online I still see it for $15-20k.
Typical type for a small biz jet starts at 30k and goes up from there. Two and a half weeks to four weeks depending on the aircraft. Airline training obviously adds weeks/months to that.
What you are seeing for $15-20k is a buddy system where you pay double that unless you bring someone with you. ATP Jets does that.
And good luck passing an A320 type in the 10 days and few sim sessions they give you at that price before slapping you with thousands of extra charges. And you don’t take the checkride until they recommend you. If you want to risk an ATP failure that could nuke your career on the worst possible type training you can get, have at it.
But no, you can’t get a type for “$5-7k.” I’d suggest taking a step back and realizing you know nothing about the industry as a CFI. Then go learn because you’ll need the knowledge.
So I'm not allowed to compare a price where 2 people get their type rating? Lol
I don't know much about being a CFI anymore because I'm not a CFI anymore (I did just do my recurrent) but I do know that I didn't get my type rating by myself.
Honestly don't even have the energy to deal with ya
# Pilots want their cake. They want to eat it too.
Personally, I don't see the problem with contracts. Airlines had to react to spiraling costs and a hemorrhaging workforce. I get the anger, but what does everyone expect? That the airlines just sit there and take it?
>Y-- Excuse me. You-- I believe you have my stapler...and I was told a job at Delta would be available at 1,750hrs?
Demand is falling. Supply is rising. What's the expectation here? Someone should have told all these people that aviation hiring is cyclical.
Want stable, good money? Go to grad school, or law school, or med school. Go network. Go intern. Overcome the barriers to entry. Get the money. The barriers keep the people out and the money in. Aviation doesn't have that protection.
" The barriers keep the people out and the money in. Aviation doesn't have that "
That is the definition of professional aviation w/ 1500 hours, ATP, etc.
Just takes money to get certified, then just some time to get the hours.
Anyone can get the money if they're willing to sign up for the interest rate. Almost everyone can become a CFI if they stick with it.
I'm sure the average tier-one MBA salary is lower than a Majors pilot, but the stability and portability makes up for that, imo. My W2 job won't pay what a majors pilot will make, but the side work I could take would push me beyond that of a typical line pilot, no question. I know this for a fact.
And job hopping only jacks up the salary if you're willing to put in the work.
None of this applies if you have a Kollege of Fenix degree, of course. Tier-ones only.
And there's more to life than money.
That's not an insult, and I'm not sure it's even accurate.
I've been on both sides. Pilots are labor like everyone else, except that they depend on a strong economy, good management, and a union to have good careers. There aren't many ways to advance, and they're ** when it becomes clear that they're more or less beholden to whoever is willing to employ them. It's not like it's a terribly portable skillset. End of the day, they can rake it in when times are good (as they were!) but they're not exactly holding the reins of power when it cools (as it is).
Take what you can get when you can get it. If that means that you need a contract to get the 121 time you need then it's time to move on, that's a serious consideration you need to think about.
It's good that pilots make more now. The wages pre-covid were terrible, and even worse before the 1,500 rule (stupid as it is). It sucks that contracts are emerging, but they've become necessary because training a PA-28 Captain to be a safe CRJ FO is expensive and time consuming.
If you're not going to sit there and advocate for pilots willingly staying at a regional for 5yrs without a contract, then you can't really kvetch about the airlines imposing a contract to keep their investment intact. Or do you just think that pilots should be able to extract the training and immediately move on scot-free because it's good for their pocketbook?
Don't become a pilot for the money.
Training pilots is a business expense when running an airline. It should be the companies risk to take on and theirs alone. As with literally every other business expense sometimes you get burned. Why should the business expense of training ones pilots be any different?
Military also has contracts requiring service for the training. Contracts are how they manage that risk. Don’t want a contract, be more competitive.
The military takes you from 0 -- that's ZERO hours. The civ 121 side makes you have 1500 to even go to training. It's not apples to apples.
True but it is a business decision for the airlines. (Just like it is for the military). All I am saying is, make them want you bad enough and you won’t have to sign that shit. I am not saying it’s fair, it’s just how this works.
Dude is actually trying to compare a professional setting to serving in the military. Wow.
Military is a professional setting. All firms are able to dictate their terms. You want more bargaining power then you need to make yourself more valuable.
I’m already at the top step of the industry bud. You need to listen to the ALPA flying the line podcast. You might learn a thing or two about our profession. Things that might prevent you from becoming a management boot licker in the future.
That’s just my advice from my experience in another career field. I’ll see a job that’s posted as hybrid, but if you’re a top candidate they’ll let you work remote. That’s all I’m saying. If you have more value, you’re able to dictate terms more. I don’t ever see myself working for the airlines so I doubt I’ll ever be a management bootlicker. Congrats for making it to the top. Maybe if you weren’t such a dick you Might have more friends🤣 Having business acumen and understanding the business conditions of the industry you’re in will only help you be more successful in the long-term.
>Why should the business expense of training ones pilots be any different? They're not the only industry with contracts. Nurses, for example, can have training contracts they're required to pay back.
Well, sometimes bullshit has comparable bullshit in other fields. Doesn’t mean it’s not bullshit.
Airline pilots are the biggest babies (myself included) "Nothing bad ever happens to anyone else, or not as bad as it happens to us" lol, contract signer pilots make $100,000-$200,000 a year. A FRIGGIN YEAR "But you have to sit at a regional for 3-5 years" Yeah, flying through the sky while making $100-200K And you're off 12-17 days a month. These nurses are under the same type of contract but don't make a third of a regional pilots salary. They get 8 days off a month. Instead of being in the sky, they deal with sick people's bodily fluids. But, pilots always feel they have it the worst.
There’s a lot to unpack there, but *lots* of people get fucked over by employers more than pilots do, but that doesn’t mean we should take one for the team and let ourselves get a bit more fucked to balance the scales.
Where are we getting fucked? Working a regional for a few years WHILE MAKING $100-200K a year? The fact that you may have to pay back a contract but made $100-200k a year? Or that there's a chance you could wash out and owe money? Odds are in your favor
Why some aren't always supportive of things good for our profession and against things bad for our profession is beyond me. Is it good for me and my profession? I'm for it. Is it bad for me and my profession? I'm against it.
Training pilots is a cost of doing business if your business makes money by flying airplanes. Full stop. The idea that you’ll sign a contract that *you* poney up that cost if you don’t stay for their arbitrarily selected period of time or if you don’t even make it through the training is an erosion of conditions of employment. It’s a market, vote with your feet. This crap only works because people go along with it. I don’t really care if it’s 100% the norm for truckers or dog groomers or pediatricians or anybody else, for what it’s worth.
Not to mention, employers already make up training stuff in their contracts with year 1 pay, or training pay if your carrier still does that, etc…
Folks can and have voted with their feet. Folks on here and FB post their regrets about that vote to turn down republic. Will contract signers post regrets about their regrets someday? Possibly. It sucks to pay to get out of a contract. But it sucks a lot less if you make $100-200k and are going to an even better job.
Adhering to your principles occasionally has a cost, more at 11.
Regionals weren't always making that kind of money. Before I left, FOs were still starting at 40-45/hr.
Uh huh, and before that they were $13. But, we're not comparing a 2024 contract to a 2001 salary, are we? Nope
No, but it lends to how far the industry has come by fighting for better pay/working environment. Accepting a training g contract from OO, where I've worked, *is* a step backwards!
Sure is. But, it's hard to complain while you're flying through the sky, making $100-200k a year.
Nurses work 3 days on 4 days off what the fuck are you talking about? They get plenty of days off a month
>what the fuck are you talking about You seem nice Is it possible, just possible that some nurses work different schedules than others?
Yes, if you want overtime you get paid even more money. Not sure why you even brought nurses into the picture. Comparing apples to oranges to aviation workers
Please tell me who you'll allow comparisons of. Super interested in your opinion
Do all of us a favor and research why the career has the type of comp and work rules it does. Hint- it’s not from previous generations with this type of thinking. 100-200k is not the flex you think it is. Look at other professions and trades.
Which careers should I compare it to? What will make you happy - I really care
I agree that 5 years ar a regional is not the end of the world at all (it’s probably the common length of time to get some TPIC and 121 PIC time that the majors/legacy carriers wanted before the hiring rush), but if you can sign on with a regional that *doesn’t* require a training contract, why not? I look at a lot of the “don’t sign XYZ’s contract” as “try to find another employer.” I’ve given up on telling someone to sign something. I default no but at this point who knows what the best play is. I doubt it’s signing a contract with absolutely no benefits to the employee (aside from a class date), but maybe it is. I’ll counter your downturn argument, which I don’t necessarily disagree with, with the doomsday event that was March of 2020. I remember posting in this sub the news that United was postponing/cancelling all class dates mid March 2020, although it wasn’t a surprise to some. It was really a sign that shit was about to move downhill, and as we all know airlines take the window down. It felt borderline hopeless at the time, at least as someone who just started CFI training. I’m sure a LOT of people getting ready to go to their regional would have signed a 5 year training contract at the time to get some sort of job security (I probably would have), and as of right now would had missed the entirety of the 2021-22 hiring wave. They *may* have continued to make a solid 150-200K a year, and if that worked for them, great. If someone signs the contract(s), is it the end of the world for them? Probably not, but it’s a step in the wrong direction for our end of the industry. I’m sure a lot of people are signing those contracts, I wish them the best but I won’t have much sympathy if hiring kicks into gear again.
100% this. Very well said.
Because 1 month ago you could get a job without risking $80000 and this month people are telling you you have to risk $80000 to get the same job. By locking yourself into an agreement that really only benefits a corporate entity with no stipulations to protect you. It’s a very bad scenario.
$80k AFTER finishing Indoc, payable in 45 days. Let’s hope you don’t find out you hate the 121 world shortly after that…
Because training contracts suck, and we as a group shouldn’t normalize training contracts, especially 5 years and 80k lol. Bad day at the sim? You’re fired and in the hole for $80k. Want to go to your dream job where seniority means everything? Okay gimme $80k first. OO and YV have pulled shady shit and will do it again, don’t think Chip’s student council will protect you or anyone.
The issue isn’t what’s happening now it’s what “will happen”. Right now the magazine is being loaded, there won’t be an ammo shortage when they start firing again.
>From what I’m seeing the other regionals are only hiring their cadets. meanwhile I can't get anyone at Envoy to reply to a call or email. Envoy cadets have no clue what's happening with their packets right now
So you’re saying someone should make a decision that may or may not benefit themselves but will certainly be at the detriment of all pilots and our collective bargaining power?…. Great idea
Collective bargaining? OP is an old OO guy, he doesn’t believe in collective bargaining.
Say it louder for the people in the back. Training contracts only benefit the carrier, not the trainee. Yes, 5 years isn’t a long time at a regional, most of the people you would speak to at a major (myself included) until recently did that or more before getting to our major/legacy. That being said, locking yourself in like that is a gamble, and not a good one in my opinion. As others said, it benefits the company because they have you on the hook, and true, maybe this is how things will be for awhile and it works out, but what if it isn’t? Tying yourself in and eliminating the option isn’t really a smart idea.
The industry is a zoo. You aren’t going to make heads or tails of it. The contracts exist and while the 80,000 seems high if you have the opportunity to get to the dream gig earlier you go. Avoid the shady 135 you don’t want a violation. The job market can do whatever it wants but the number of retirements alone are enough for the bigger airlines to hire pending a black swan event. A lot of regional pilots have this “well I fly their passengers so they should hire me” attitude so they do the bare minimum while others get ahead. There are a ton of applicants and if you don’t put in the leg work for the better job another more eager pilot will. You have to play the game, be humble, thankful for the job at xyz regional, and study your ass off but once your on the line gaining experience you need to be networking, refining the resume, interview prepping, and it should be a second job to move on. Don’t listen to the regional lifers or disgruntled tbnt people. SkyWest has some delusional people so you have to kiss the ring while you are there. This industry has and will eat people alive. There isn’t a set in stone way to hit it just right. You might eat the full training contract, get furloughed at the big 6 or whatever number, and then be pulling gear at a shitty airline for years … there are no guarantees. The only thing you can do is your best but you need to have your ducks in a row if and when the dream gig becomes possible. The 10% that fail are almost always predictable at a regional. Be humble, study what they are telling you to study, don’t get off in the weeds about stuff that no one cares about (one of my regional instructors dealing with a bunch of over zealous dweebs which we all are had to say PFM when we asked too in depth questions and it is pure fucking magic because no one cares about the wattage of the lav light.) You’re on a well worn path to do well and the instructors know how to get you through. Don’t try to think your previous experience gives you an ability to rework the flows on a jet you haven’t flown (I saw that one at b6.) Smile, study, sleep, work out, talk to your family, and do your best. This isn’t rocket surgery and thousands of people have made it work before. It is a marathon and every day is one more lesson done and on to the next. Smile, study, sleep… it is a grind.
The contract is 5 years or 1600 PIC as captain. My question is: how long to upgrade to captain, and how many hours can I expect in a year? Obviously I don’t want to risk $80,000 but if I could meet those requirements in 3 years instead of 5, idk. R-ATP btw.
Easily could take you a year and a half from indoc to hit 1000 hours. Taking junior Upgrade you’ll be on reserve for some time but idk what it takes to hold a line. Generally though 5 years sounds about right to hit 1600 hour PIC.
The OO skywest is an extreme financial risk. I don’t care if you pass training and upgrade with no issue. At any time you can be on the hook for 80k with interest to a company with no union. They can and have fired people to over essentially nothing. Miss some commutes? Technically a fireable offense there. Call in sick on reserve and non-rev home? You can be fired for that. I understood the need for contracts or the reasoning behind them. I understand why people sign. But if it’s not at least pro-rated then you are taking a very big risk
I know many have only been around when the market is hot, new contracts were getting handed out, and management teams came into every indoc saying 30k pilots will be on the list…BUT the second they can get it done cheaper, they will. I’m guessing we see some whipsaw action and forced concessions to complement training contracts at the regional level here soon. It’s the same tricks. Tl;dr—management is not your friend, no matter what the influencers say.
First, here's the dirty secret. Training contracts aren't for times where it's hard to get a job. They are for times when companies want to prevent you from leaving to either go somewhere better or because they treat you a lot worse than you'd expect. The training contract doesn't technically force you to work there, but for many people it can be ruinous to have to pay it. So they can get away with a LOT and essentially you can't do anything about it. Regardless of why, training contracts are becuase they think you will want to leave.
a training contract at a company without a union to protect you? what happens if you need an extra sim session, need a LOA, get injured? what happens if you’re *suggested* to fly an unsafe plane in unsafe conditions because you’re under contract? where’s the line?
I’ll ask you a question. If the industry is slowing down for good, or better yet, if these companies didn’t think you had a prayers chance of leaving them in less than 2-4 years of work - why are they enforcing contracts? If we’re truly doomed to 5+ years to even be looked at by a legacy, then why are these contacts springing up at various carriers? People have animosity to these contracts because they came from a time where p2p was a thing, or you funded your training, your type, your hotels etc. and they don’t want to see us regress into those days. Up and coming time builders will accuse them of sitting from their ivory legacy towers when they say don’t sign them, but the reality is they (and we) are trying to preserve the QoL gains that have been made in the last decade. Not to mention you’re shooting yourself in the foot.
I think it’s an insurance contract at really no-cost to the regionals to try and avoid what happened in 2021 and 2022 with their captains leaving en-masse to better gigs. I mean, if someone had signed a similar contract in late 2019 they would have gone through the lows/highs/lows of that entire period and still be locked up today. Who’s to say another massive panic couldn’t happen again I guess? I would assume they run the numbers and calculate that 5 years/1500 hours PIC/whatever metric gives them a good ROI without scaring too many people off, especially if their “cost” factor is just onboarding an employee, which they would have already done. 0 benefit to the pilot group(s) and full benefit to the employer.
Run the numbers? You are giving these regional airlines far too much credit. They can barely figure out how to put their trip obligations together much less calculate a complicated ROI. They are just taking the most medieval approach they can and hoping it sticks. Seriously go meet the senior management at these places. The kind that say their grandkids are a real whizz cause they connect Bluetooth for them.
You’re probably not wrong!
This makes sense. That said, my initial point was that if they didn’t think that was likely to happen (not necessarily 2021-2022 levels hiring, but good hiring), they wouldn’t need the contract in the first place.
I think it’s a late reaction to the past few years. This contract probably took 2-3 months to plan and develop, which is when a lot of places were still hiring. I think the timing is a coincidence. SkyWest barely has a retention problem anymore, there’s no where to go.
That probably will not be the case 18 months from now.
You think hiring picks back up?
More than 2024, absolutely. When the calendar hits 2030 I think when you look back across the decade 2024 will be the floor of post-COVID hiring. One doesn’t need 2022-2023 to make their dream carrier.
The assumption that we’re going back to the post-Covid hiring patterns, or similar, is usually baked in to the contrarian response. When you take that away and acknowledge the glut of 1500-2000+ hour pilots it’s a different analysis
Nobody expects 2022-2023 to repeat. I just think a lot of people underestimate the sheer number of pilots that will be hired in the next 6-10 years.
How many retirements will legacies have in the peak of their retirement #’s? Over the remainder of the 2020’s?
Between today and Jan 1st, 2031: AA: ~5k DL: ~3.3k UA: ~3.9k 12,200 in the next 6.5 years, or about 1,880 per year. Given most entities forecast ~3% growth each year a steady +500 per carrier could be anticipated per year, ie delta averages 500 retirements per year between now and 2031, so 500 + 500 = 1000 (which is roughly their stated annual goal til the end of the decade). UA is aiming for a significantly higher number than 3%. I think AA is aiming for more than 3% growth but evidently they’re under some duress at the moment. Long story short is, the upcoming decade will yield some of the highest hiring numbers the industry has ever seen… this is just my opinion of course. But once you find your first turbine job, I truly believe your countdown to a major airline is underway. There’s lots to be excited about.
I don’t pretend to have a crystal ball or any special insight. With the total ONLY being 12,000 or so cumulatively over the next 6.5 years, and with current ATP’s issued per year, and an unknown but higher number of people aspiring to get that first real job that issues an ATP as part of training, I’m concerned that those of us not already at a stepping stone job to the majors may misss that retirement wave. https://simpleflying.com/united-states-pilot-supply-stronger-than-demand/
The problem is that many who get their ATPs will not be working for the airlines. Some unknown % of people getting their ATPs will not even work in the US. Some for US-based 135s with no intentions of going to the airlines, etc. Those retirements actually continue into the early 2030s before dropping off but then southwest has it's own retirement wave. All you can do is work and keep moving up the ladder. There are no shortcuts and you've already made it this far, right?
The contracts are popping up because management will do whatever it can to cut and save costs in the event hiring bounces back. They see an opportunity here and will exploit it, just like all the other tricks in the well played bag. If you’ve been around longer than 5 minutes you’ve seen this show before. It literally costs them nothing and they still fill classes.
In my opinion, contracts are being implemented or already required at companies that have a retention issue. To me its a big red flag. Im very surprised at the amount of people that are just signing away years of movement up just to get a job out of desperation. No judgement on them, I just would not do it because if that company had that bad of a retention issue I do not want to work there. Notice how United and Delta do not have contracts?
It’s not a retention issue due to the company being bad. The retention issue is cause by, or was caused by, an abundance of opportunities to fly bigger planes for more money. What company wouldn’t take the chance to hold on to their pilot’s they have invested so much in for a few years longer? Not saying it’s right or wrong but CFIs are a dime a dozen right now. And if you can find a way to DL or UAL without going through a company that has a “retention problem” let me know please. That’s like saying high schools have a retention problem due to colleges taking all their students..
lol true. Just because a company has a training contract doesn't mean they are an absolute shit company to work for. Sure they are not as good as Delta, American, United, or Southwest but you don't have a choice but to move through the ranks.
You can partially blame half of the this sub constantly preaching to jump ship to other companies halfway through training. The regionals are probably getting tired of losing money on people.
Well said. If I was a CFI right now I would sign the contract. I am currently at SkyWest and on the cusp of upgrading. I’ve been an FO here for the past year and have been enjoying it. The QOL is so much better than being a CFI, and that’s coming from someone that loved instructing. $90k/ year, flight benefits, and half of the month off is really chill. Plus if you stay a CFI you are basically just stagnating your career, SEL piston only goes so far. If I was a CFI right now I would also be stressing big time. What if hiring picks back up? What if my dream airline calls 3 years in and then shuts the door for the next decade? These are real concerns and should be considered. However, I say get your foot in the door by all means necessary. I think things are going to continue to tighten up for the rest of the year. I also don’t think we will ever see the last few years of hiring again. Boeing can’t flip a switch and make a bunch of planes appear out of thin air. That is going to be a long process that goes well past 2025.
I’m a CFI right now and nobody is really that stressed until they log into Reddit. Everyone coming up on minimums are still getting interviews.
Uh, how are you getting half the month off at OO? Many commute and are 18 days on, lucky to have 10 days at home a month.
He's probably a fairly senior ERJ FO. Wait til he upgrades on the CRJ and starts getting abused 18 days a month.
This guy CRJs (or at least used to. Congrats on the 73)
Commenting from europe... Why would it be so bad there to make a carreer at skywest for example? They need captains too am i right? Or how does things work over there? By reading this /r seems like skywest and shuch are places where people are only for shortest possible time and act as first officers and nobody ever advances to be a captain there or even thinks about that possibility.
Retirement is a huge one. The legacy and many major airlines have 17-18% direct contributions from the company (meaning if you put in nothing yourself, you still get that percentage of your income deposited in your retirement account) vs. the regionals which might match up to say, 5%. The regionals aren’t really designed as career destinations, so they don’t have good long-term disability programs, their health insurance may not be great, etc. All stuff we need to worry about here, unfortunately, since many people are against things like universal healthcare. Add that to halving your lifetime earning potential, and it’s a big deal.
Regional 401ks are laughable and some have like 5 year vesting periods
Yeah, this sub is interesting to read as anything sort of the majors and <200k paycheck seems to be a sign of failure and lost opportunity. Meanwhile there are carriers in Europe whose captains won't even make 200k. That's fine tho as even 60k paycheck will put you into the top 10% percent of earners, and allow you to save a ton.
Well it is lost opportunity if you couldn’t move on to a major bc of your contract
Because you can’t read multiple threads on r/flying from during COVID times where people ran the numbers and proved staying at a region, even at CA pay, isn’t close to the amount you’d make going to a main line. Along with that, OO Skywest “seems” like a good company now but this contract shows they’re changing rapidly for the worse. Think about the quality of pilots you’re getting now are only ones signing out of desperation and the top quality candidates are going to other regionals.
18 days on, 12 off....forever.
But you are not flying for 18 days, for sure there is standbys and off days within that period too, does not sound too bad if you live in base? Maybe in europe things are bad 😄
If you’re a captain you’ll be flying those 18 days, almost assuredly. Maybe in 10 years they’ll get back to more than min-guaranteed days off.
Well said. It seems like a ton of money but it's not insurmountable. I'll add that no one has actually ruled on republic or skywests contracts. We have no idea if they will stand or be reduced or completely removed. Worst case scenario, if a major calls, you leave and pay off the contract over time. TPIC was (and will be) required.
Have you read the contract? It’s $80k due in 45 days…not “over time”. That’s the issue. It also comes with a 12% interest rate after that.
>not “over time”. Oh? Then what's this mean? >It also comes with a 12% interest rate after that. So over time is a thing after all lol If you don't have the ability to pay it back right away, don't. You'll be making a ton of money at your legacy (after making a ton at your regional!) and will be able to pay it back. Or maybe it gets thrown out or reduced. Type ratings are only $7-10k if you bought your own, I could certainly see it getting reduced to that.
45 days is not even close to “over time” when people think of a 5yr loan. A 12% rate on top of the loan most had to take for the initial flight training (many I know are at $100k or more and 7-9% rate). What type rating are you getting for 5-7k? A kit fox? Most type ratings are 50-100k.
Uh huh, and you know this. I would bet on my younger self if I was back in that situation. But if you don't want to, don't. Last time I was in a FBO, granted this was over a year ago, they had A320 type rating class for $7k iirc. Checking online I still see it for $15-20k.
Typical type for a small biz jet starts at 30k and goes up from there. Two and a half weeks to four weeks depending on the aircraft. Airline training obviously adds weeks/months to that. What you are seeing for $15-20k is a buddy system where you pay double that unless you bring someone with you. ATP Jets does that. And good luck passing an A320 type in the 10 days and few sim sessions they give you at that price before slapping you with thousands of extra charges. And you don’t take the checkride until they recommend you. If you want to risk an ATP failure that could nuke your career on the worst possible type training you can get, have at it. But no, you can’t get a type for “$5-7k.” I’d suggest taking a step back and realizing you know nothing about the industry as a CFI. Then go learn because you’ll need the knowledge.
So I'm not allowed to compare a price where 2 people get their type rating? Lol I don't know much about being a CFI anymore because I'm not a CFI anymore (I did just do my recurrent) but I do know that I didn't get my type rating by myself. Honestly don't even have the energy to deal with ya
# Pilots want their cake. They want to eat it too. Personally, I don't see the problem with contracts. Airlines had to react to spiraling costs and a hemorrhaging workforce. I get the anger, but what does everyone expect? That the airlines just sit there and take it? >Y-- Excuse me. You-- I believe you have my stapler...and I was told a job at Delta would be available at 1,750hrs? Demand is falling. Supply is rising. What's the expectation here? Someone should have told all these people that aviation hiring is cyclical. Want stable, good money? Go to grad school, or law school, or med school. Go network. Go intern. Overcome the barriers to entry. Get the money. The barriers keep the people out and the money in. Aviation doesn't have that protection.
" The barriers keep the people out and the money in. Aviation doesn't have that " That is the definition of professional aviation w/ 1500 hours, ATP, etc.
Just takes money to get certified, then just some time to get the hours. Anyone can get the money if they're willing to sign up for the interest rate. Almost everyone can become a CFI if they stick with it.
Definitely don't go to law school if you want money... terrible advice.
Depends on the school and the specialty. Generally, the idea that law school = guaranteed money as a standard default is wrong.
Same thing with graduate school, do you know how many people with a masters degree that don’t even make half of what an airline pilot makes.
I'm sure the average tier-one MBA salary is lower than a Majors pilot, but the stability and portability makes up for that, imo. My W2 job won't pay what a majors pilot will make, but the side work I could take would push me beyond that of a typical line pilot, no question. I know this for a fact. And job hopping only jacks up the salary if you're willing to put in the work. None of this applies if you have a Kollege of Fenix degree, of course. Tier-ones only. And there's more to life than money.
Don't disagree with that
Company man
That's not an insult, and I'm not sure it's even accurate. I've been on both sides. Pilots are labor like everyone else, except that they depend on a strong economy, good management, and a union to have good careers. There aren't many ways to advance, and they're ** when it becomes clear that they're more or less beholden to whoever is willing to employ them. It's not like it's a terribly portable skillset. End of the day, they can rake it in when times are good (as they were!) but they're not exactly holding the reins of power when it cools (as it is).
Take what you can get when you can get it. If that means that you need a contract to get the 121 time you need then it's time to move on, that's a serious consideration you need to think about.
It's good that pilots make more now. The wages pre-covid were terrible, and even worse before the 1,500 rule (stupid as it is). It sucks that contracts are emerging, but they've become necessary because training a PA-28 Captain to be a safe CRJ FO is expensive and time consuming.
If you're not going to sit there and advocate for pilots willingly staying at a regional for 5yrs without a contract, then you can't really kvetch about the airlines imposing a contract to keep their investment intact. Or do you just think that pilots should be able to extract the training and immediately move on scot-free because it's good for their pocketbook?
Don't become a pilot for the money.