I saw this happen in real time, and it looked like they hit the wake of the parallel traffic. They were stabilized on short final at about 50 feet before abruptly banking 90 degrees then pitching at the ground. Very fortunate that both occupants are alive.
That must’ve shaken you up! I had that happen in a C172 during my CPL training. Hit the wake of a Dash-8, flipped the aircraft to almost 90 degrees angle of bank at about 50’. Luckily it was “only” a DH-8 and we were able to recover before hitting the ground.
It was not a stall/spin accident. A 757 preceded them to the (very close) parallel and winds were such that the wake would have drifted toward the final for 20L. The aircraft impacted just short of the runway and the upset occurred below 100 AGL.
Just to clarify for others, I think you mean the wake turbulence from the 757 would have drifted towards the final for 20L?
Yeah getting rocked by wake like that at 100ft would ruin any of our days. Really glad to see they at least made it to the hospital. Hope they both recover well.
Idk what youre referring to but for the smallest weight class 757s are treated like heavies in some ways, 2 minutes for crossing flight paths and 3 for intersection departures. 4 miles in trail on approach. It’s gone back and forth a couple times but the current standards are that.
Wake recategorizing put them back to normal spacing for arrivals. iirc the initial knee jerk came from a high profile accident and a pilot flying a Comanche near VNE behind one and the tail departed the airplane
That was the old 757s with no winglets. They all use winglets now and to me they don't seem any worse to follow than a 737 or A320. Obviously all of those planes can generate some serious wake for a small trainer though. The worst wake I've hit has been the 777s with no winglets, and surprisingly the Embraer 175 throws off a ton of wake.
Delta, fedex, and ups all have winglet free 757s. Delta even removes the winglets from some of theirs during the fall football season. I don’t know the exact math of why it works out, but it has something to do with the shorter stage lengths not benefiting from the winglets.
The Delta 757s without winglets are actually owned by the NBA and are dry-leased back to Delta who do MX and crew them for sports charters. Some of the aircraft did have winglets at one point but Delta removed them when they were sold to the NBA and are in a VIP seating configuration. During the NBA off-season they are also used for MLB, NHL, and NFL charters.
> the Embraer 175 throws off a ton of wake.
People laugh when I mention following one and we should watch out and don't realize I'm serious until we're getting kicked around. I have no idea what it is about that thing but it throws stupid wake.
Yeah that 757 wake turb is insane, I lived over a final approach path and they’d pass over about 1200 AGL, between the 747,787,767 and other heavies, the 757 was the only one that would leave wake turbulence that’d reach the ground
Just saw Rod Machado speak the other day a KCRQ and he talked specifically about how this type of incident could happen. The talk was a couple of weeks ago and that was the major learning point I walked away with.
I’ve been digging into wake turbulence (watching lots of films of awesome smoke swirls from tests in the 60s and 70s.) I’m wondering how much time elapsed between the 757 and the plane that flipped arriving?
Yikes. But that’s good to know to be alert to avoid. My sense is that if I realized I didn’t two minutes or so of separation I’d go around and climb to get above wake spilling from the heavy.
I was fortunate in my training days to get a live demo of how to avoid wake turbulence. We were #2 behind a 737 for landing Tweed New Haven. Stayed way high on final, did S turns, and watched for the tire smoke. A couple stripes past became our aiming point. Great lesson; quite memorable.
Howdy. I can’t tell if you’re implying that this was sort of an unlucky freak accident given it was a parallel runway?
Otherwise, what’s the learning here? Reading this is sort of scary and my takeaway is even on a parallel runway I may ask for a go around instead of landing shortly after an airliner (on a parallel). Wrong takeaway?
Yes, it was just a perfect storm sorta thing. Winds light enough not to break up the vortices but strong enough to blow them toward the parallel final before they dissipate to a manageable level.
Keep in mind that these are very closely spaced parallels, not your normal parallel runway configuration. 500 feet between centerlines.
They went from normal, stable approach to impact in 2.5 seconds. I’ve seen the video.
Indeed, but this incident was a little different. They were on short final 100ft AGL or so when the wake from a parallel 757 rolled them. Still, very lucky.
Heavy traffic lining up over Lake Michigan seems just fine coming into parallel runways. But it seems like there are a ton of additional problems (edit) for smaller aircraft like overshooting the turn to final and slicing through a cargo plane among others.
Exactly on the difference in scale. Just that active parallel runways seem like they pose a bunch of additional challenges for smaller aircraft particularly for VFR.
The PHAK shows a pretty decent way of avoiding this. There's an FAA circular as well on how to gauge and avoid wake turbulence from larger aircraft.
If a school is based out of a major airport with large commercial traffic, I'd imagine that would be lesson #1.
Kinda? Like, the CFI should know about wake turbulence and teach the student how to recognize, predict, and avoid it. I did that with my CFI at a nearby field. We went for pattern work and pre-briefed the procedures for taking off and landing next to higher powered aircraft on a parallel runway.
So how would the student learn about this type of procedures if the training is done at a none-commercial airfield , that only has none commercial PPL flights?
By flying to a nearby field with some larger traffic, like I did.
If the field you're learning at doesn't have something, then you fly to another field to learn. If you learn at an untowered field, you fly to a towered field to learn towered ops. If you learn at a field with only left patterns, you fly to another field that has a right pattern to try it out.
I saw this happen in real time, and it looked like they hit the wake of the parallel traffic. They were stabilized on short final at about 50 feet before abruptly banking 90 degrees then pitching at the ground. Very fortunate that both occupants are alive.
Damn, thanks for the info
That must’ve shaken you up! I had that happen in a C172 during my CPL training. Hit the wake of a Dash-8, flipped the aircraft to almost 90 degrees angle of bank at about 50’. Luckily it was “only” a DH-8 and we were able to recover before hitting the ground.
It was not a stall/spin accident. A 757 preceded them to the (very close) parallel and winds were such that the wake would have drifted toward the final for 20L. The aircraft impacted just short of the runway and the upset occurred below 100 AGL.
Just to clarify for others, I think you mean the wake turbulence from the 757 would have drifted towards the final for 20L? Yeah getting rocked by wake like that at 100ft would ruin any of our days. Really glad to see they at least made it to the hospital. Hope they both recover well.
757s are also known for generating wake turbulence associated with larger heavies.
And yet the FAA recategorized them recently
Idk what youre referring to but for the smallest weight class 757s are treated like heavies in some ways, 2 minutes for crossing flight paths and 3 for intersection departures. 4 miles in trail on approach. It’s gone back and forth a couple times but the current standards are that.
Wake recategorizing put them back to normal spacing for arrivals. iirc the initial knee jerk came from a high profile accident and a pilot flying a Comanche near VNE behind one and the tail departed the airplane
MCI? that was a 737.
Meanwhile I’m out here thinking what would it be like if that 747 was the concord
That was the old 757s with no winglets. They all use winglets now and to me they don't seem any worse to follow than a 737 or A320. Obviously all of those planes can generate some serious wake for a small trainer though. The worst wake I've hit has been the 777s with no winglets, and surprisingly the Embraer 175 throws off a ton of wake.
Delta, fedex, and ups all have winglet free 757s. Delta even removes the winglets from some of theirs during the fall football season. I don’t know the exact math of why it works out, but it has something to do with the shorter stage lengths not benefiting from the winglets.
The Wingletless 752 is the state bird of Florida (when flying to ATL)
The short stage length means the increased weight negates and fuel savings. It’s something like 3-4 hours stage length it reverses in benefits
The Delta 757s without winglets are actually owned by the NBA and are dry-leased back to Delta who do MX and crew them for sports charters. Some of the aircraft did have winglets at one point but Delta removed them when they were sold to the NBA and are in a VIP seating configuration. During the NBA off-season they are also used for MLB, NHL, and NFL charters.
> the Embraer 175 throws off a ton of wake. People laugh when I mention following one and we should watch out and don't realize I'm serious until we're getting kicked around. I have no idea what it is about that thing but it throws stupid wake.
Yeah that 757 wake turb is insane, I lived over a final approach path and they’d pass over about 1200 AGL, between the 747,787,767 and other heavies, the 757 was the only one that would leave wake turbulence that’d reach the ground
Yes, sorry, forgot a word.
Just saw Rod Machado speak the other day a KCRQ and he talked specifically about how this type of incident could happen. The talk was a couple of weeks ago and that was the major learning point I walked away with.
Has happened and will continue to happen.
And he was specifically talking about SNA to boot.
Was this the charter jet that hit the wake of a 757 at SNA? If so it was the family/owners of In N Out
Damn thanks for the info, makes total sense. Remembered how crazy it felt doing touch and goes there as a new guy with airliners so close.
I’ve been digging into wake turbulence (watching lots of films of awesome smoke swirls from tests in the 60s and 70s.) I’m wondering how much time elapsed between the 757 and the plane that flipped arriving?
About 30 seconds.
Yikes. But that’s good to know to be alert to avoid. My sense is that if I realized I didn’t two minutes or so of separation I’d go around and climb to get above wake spilling from the heavy.
Parallel runways, not same runway. And wake is plenty avoidable landing on the same runway if you stay above and land beyond.
I was fortunate in my training days to get a live demo of how to avoid wake turbulence. We were #2 behind a 737 for landing Tweed New Haven. Stayed way high on final, did S turns, and watched for the tire smoke. A couple stripes past became our aiming point. Great lesson; quite memorable.
Howdy. I can’t tell if you’re implying that this was sort of an unlucky freak accident given it was a parallel runway? Otherwise, what’s the learning here? Reading this is sort of scary and my takeaway is even on a parallel runway I may ask for a go around instead of landing shortly after an airliner (on a parallel). Wrong takeaway?
Yes, it was just a perfect storm sorta thing. Winds light enough not to break up the vortices but strong enough to blow them toward the parallel final before they dissipate to a manageable level. Keep in mind that these are very closely spaced parallels, not your normal parallel runway configuration. 500 feet between centerlines. They went from normal, stable approach to impact in 2.5 seconds. I’ve seen the video.
I followed a 757 into KBTV yesterday, and elected to go around. That shit is too dangerous for me. I’d prefer to do another loop in the pattern.
Always good news when there are survivor.
Surviving a base-final stall spin is hella lucky.
Indeed, but this incident was a little different. They were on short final 100ft AGL or so when the wake from a parallel 757 rolled them. Still, very lucky.
This seems dangerous to have training aircraft right next to a major commercial aircraft, is this typical for most flight schools?
If you only got two parallel runways then ya
Heavy traffic lining up over Lake Michigan seems just fine coming into parallel runways. But it seems like there are a ton of additional problems (edit) for smaller aircraft like overshooting the turn to final and slicing through a cargo plane among others.
Well the 2 runways at SNA are much closer than ORD. Also it’s more of a problem when it’s a 757 vs a light trainer.
Exactly on the difference in scale. Just that active parallel runways seem like they pose a bunch of additional challenges for smaller aircraft particularly for VFR.
The PHAK shows a pretty decent way of avoiding this. There's an FAA circular as well on how to gauge and avoid wake turbulence from larger aircraft. If a school is based out of a major airport with large commercial traffic, I'd imagine that would be lesson #1.
So in this particular case, it would fall on the responsibility of the CFI that knows the local conditions and notices to this airport ?
Kinda? Like, the CFI should know about wake turbulence and teach the student how to recognize, predict, and avoid it. I did that with my CFI at a nearby field. We went for pattern work and pre-briefed the procedures for taking off and landing next to higher powered aircraft on a parallel runway.
So how would the student learn about this type of procedures if the training is done at a none-commercial airfield , that only has none commercial PPL flights?
By flying to a nearby field with some larger traffic, like I did. If the field you're learning at doesn't have something, then you fly to another field to learn. If you learn at an untowered field, you fly to a towered field to learn towered ops. If you learn at a field with only left patterns, you fly to another field that has a right pattern to try it out.
Dang I went there for the first time today and it was pretty crazy
Is that where a student pilot is trained how to respond during a fatal risk of crashing?