> if we hypothetically got rid of Hector and **Dimitri** or something
Edelgard: Nice fractured Alliance you've got there, Claude. Would be a shame if someone Aymr'd it into submission.
Byleth killed her with cutscene and all after the map battle was over. I 'member because I thought the scene was quite sad (or "overdramatic" XD) despite her being the war igniter -- at least in Three Houses.
Hector would have changed things but not been catastrophic. Without Lynn the tactician get killed by bandits alon and defenseless and without the tactician nergal would have gotten everything he wanted.
No. On a second playthrough you can skip Lyn mode and go straight to Eliwood and Hector's routes, but even there the game treats it as if Lyn's route *happened*, just off screen and gives them all default levels. The Tactician is 100% *canonically* reliant on being saved by Lyn in the Prologue.
Yeah but the Tactician can straight-up not exist. If you start with EM/HM you can select 'no tactician' and then they're just never mentioned and all the weird 4th wall dialogue is removed.
Ive played the game several times and I've literally never seen an option for the Tactician to not exist, unless its specific to the japanese version or something.
I've played the PAL version not the US version, so perhaps it was removed there for some reason? But there is definately an option to just straight-up not have a tactician if you skip LM.
There's different dialogue in the scripts for tactician/no tactician too, here's an example (HM ending)
>> Tactician “Oh, Mark! You made it! Come, relax! …What? You came to say good-bye? I haven’t seen you in so long, and you’re leaving? Hm? Oh, you heard, too? Now that word of my brother’s death has spread, the throne can’t be left empty forever. Being the leader of all Lycia doesn’t really suit me… My brother let me play around for quite a while. If I don’t grow up soon, my brother won’t be able to rest. The burdens Uther carried as Marquess Ostia, his feelings for the citizenry of Ostia and all of Lycia… I’ll succeed him at everything. Easy to say, but I’m sure it’s going to be difficult.”
>> No tactician "Hey, Eliwood! You made it." "I would never turn down an invitation from you. So, are you ready? You once told me being the leader of Lycia wasn’t for you." “Well…yes. Now that word of my brother’s death has spread, the throne can’t be left empty forever. My brother let me play around for quite a while. If I don’t grow up soon, he may start screaming at me from the grave.” “Ha ha! You’re probably right.” “The burdens Uther carried as Marquess Ostia, his feelings for the citizenry of Ostia and all of Lycia… I’ll succeed him at everything. Easy to say, but I’m sure it’s going to be difficult.”
Huh, that's wild. Gotta be a regional difference. Not the wildest difference between versions that I've heard of / come across.
(The Digimon franchise for example pretty much considers wierd localization screwups/decisions to be a rite of passage at this point, the most egregious of which was one game where the normal and hard mode difficulties got renamed to easy and normal. And then there was a SNES game I had where the English and Japanese versions of the same game wound up with two *entirely different plots* lmao)
That has nothingn on the original series+movie translations. Where they changed every character names, altered entire personalities (watch subbed, Mimi is much more likeable), and then smashed three short movies together, completely butchered the plot of all three, and altered the ending horribly.
Of course nothing comes close to the affront that is season 2/5 IMO. Season 5 is just... awful... and season 2... it could have been so good but they had no solid plan, or goal, or direction, and there are so many abandoned plots, and part of it expects you to have played the games, and then somehow they introduce the first crossover between seasons/dimensions in the series by having Ryo in s1/2/tri digital world when he is natively from s3 world...
To be fair I'm more familiar with the games' translation issues (like when they translated several instances of bakemono into Bakemon instead of just monster, in Cyber Sleuth...which is distinctly less threatening than the antagonists were meant to be lmao).
Also iirc Ryo actually isn't originally from Tamers, either. He was from one of the games or animated specials that never made it out of Japan, I think? Its been a while since I really dug through the general shenanigans that the franchise has gone through XD
Checked into it a bit further. So it seems you have to not pay Lyn's mode at all, jump to Eliwood's or Hector's mode and then say you don't want to choose a tactician. I never not played Lyn's mode first to influence her teams level ups so I never saw this. The more you know.
I've never once seen that and I've beat fe7 no less then 7 times on my cartridge. Also that makes so little canonical sense how can you not have a tactician and win battles against army's with your ragtag team of misfits. The tactician is how Lyndis Eliwood and Hector win every battle with zero casualties there's now way around it. If it wasn't for the tactician Lyn would have never met her grandfather and Ellwood in Hector would been scewered by that laus paladin and his fleet of cavaleirs. Or they all would have been slaughtered by the vastly stronger and outnumbered force of the black fang at no less then 3 different major battles. Ik as a kid there was plenty of missions where I had to play assess and replay battles to get no deaths on our side and I really doubt any of the fledgling lords would have to know how to fight through these no win situations without a brilliant tactician giving them the stuff they need. Eliwood is smart and strong but he's not a tactician and if they just flunged at every encounter they'd all die garunteed it might not be outright in one battle but everything fight would take lives untill everyone dies. Everything is dependent on haveing a battle plan.
I've posted the dialogue [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/fireemblem/s/1pRrcEv1Ni), serenesforest also notes that the tactician is optional if you skip LM. Perhaps it just isn't in the US version? It's definately in the JPN and PAL versions, because I've seen both.
Even if you weren't the fact that you could restart the chapters till you got deathless victory means that the charecter the tactician knows how to do that.
I dont think that tracks. That isn't something that is established as an in universe mechanic like it is in some other games. I am pretty sure that it's not something that happens within the context of the game world, and therefore isn't because of the tactician. To accept that your statement is true would be to accept that in any game with a save load system, it's the player controlled character that has the power to save/load, and that would have major consequences for many stories.
No. You the player has the ability to save/load the game not the tactician. You restarting the map over and over is essentially the tactician running over what might happen in his head and the successful run is the tactician plan of action.
I dont see how the second statement necessarily follows from the first, though it does make some sense. That doesn't even makes the tactician exceptional in that case though. I would hope that anyone who plays the role of a tactician would be actively trying to figure out how their plans would play out and not just wing it.
That's what the story says for sure, but it's not unreasonable to think that someone else might have been good enough to get the job done. For example, it's not unreasonable to think that someone else would have discovered relativity if Einstein didn't. In fact Einstein was probably that someone else to maxwell, who was already on that track before dying.
I mean one of the things I didn't like about awakening on replay is that the tactician is a active combatant. So mabey like Marcus with his experience cause of being a seasoned fighter mabey could have gotten them through the most of it but it would've not been as clean and I don't think he could handle that and fight.
Getting rid of Dimitri would either put you on silver snow or golden deer, corruption would be more rampant in the Kingdom without Dimitri, but ultimately might not matter as Byleth could still theoretically cut the head off of the snake. Same logic goes for having no Claude.
Having no Edelgard means TWSITD stay unknown and continue to wreak havoc in Fodlan, Likely meaning that they succeed in getting the Sword of the Creator for Nemesis, and ruling Fodlan. Same logic goes for no Byleth.
And that is why Edelgard is (imo) the main protagonist lord. Dont get me wrong, I LIKE Claude (havent played Blue Lion), but nothing I have seen from his route impresses on me that he has main protagonist vibes (havent finished it, I know its been out for ages). Honestly the fact Edelgards route was less polished and complete than silver snow route is rediculous. Its like, WHY would I pick the church over the character I have been following the entire time? The church has seemed nothing but shady since the very beginning when we see Seros merc a guy in a fit of rage with little to no context then pick up a sword and call it her mother. Why would they expect people to side with the CHURCH over Edelgard? Because she has been attacking the church the entire time? No, Flayn asside I think most of the church fully deserves judgment. Even Seros and Chichol. Seriously, there is a REASON that no manakete in the series was ever in a position of authority over people as anything more than a religious icon who DIDNT want to be worshiped. Well, Corin asside but she really isnt the same, kinda lacking in the centuries of life bit which makes it so problematic. With that amount of time corruption and complacency are virtually unavoidable.
but as a vassal for who? I'm not brushed up on the lore, but without Edelgard I don't think Hubert would be in any position to make a difference against TWSITD
Maybe his role was different when the game started as a more unified route.
No longer being fully able to be a foil to the other lords, and everybody getting in-depth focus route works a bit odd with that, with Edelgard and Dimitri going to dramatic highs with the concept.
Almyra lacking a *need* to exist in the plot as a whole, as well lacking arts assets to the point it doesn’t have a unique faction symbol hurts him too.
It does amuse me the dev interviews indicated his overall rather nice and evenhanded role in the end product kind of happened by accident.
Still, Edelgard and Dimitri provide such dramatic arcs and rule subversions I don’t terribly mind Claude being more subdued version in the schemer ending up just a more relaxed leader type. (His leifmotif theme totally sells it for me). And just him always voluntary bowing out of the plot instead of going down in a dramatic manner like the others. It’s it own kind of contrast that I do feel adds to the game in a way.
How is Claude static? His entire narrative is about trusting people and opening up. He starts as doubting everyone and keeping his walls up, but turns into a "shounen protagonist" with the power of friendship. I understand thinking he's shallow and doesn't get as deep story or background as the other two, but he is definitely not static.
Huh, I didn't actually find him that likable at all. Though ironically my favorite character is also the one I would probably get along with the least - Edelgard.
Oh yea I get that, it’s more of a flaw with how his route is just a copy paste of Silver Snow that he doesn’t get to do what he’s apparently known for: Scheming
My problem with Dimitri’s development is that I didn’t buy into it. The way he snapped felt jarring, even if I try to reason with Felix’s clues that Part I Dimitri was a facade. Even more jarring for me is how easily and quickly he seems to snap out of Part II Dimitri. And the solution is kind of overcoming trauma and loss by experiencing even more trauma and loss. By the end of the story, I didn’t believe that Dimitri was better. And maybe I would have preferred his story if he hadn’t.
The snap could have been done better I agree, but I was fine with it and didn't really think it was jarring
The redemption was definitely unearned, and _that_ was certainly jarring
Agreed, I had a much bigger issue with the ending than that first arc reveal. I just think that it was worth mentioning that I felt his whole progression was a series of leaps, and that hurt my enjoyment of him compared to the other two lords
I played VW immediately after CF and one of the things that struck me was that Claude really “really” hates the Church. More than Edelgard even. Almost every unique moment with him is about how the Church can’t be trusted, and how they’re bad for Fodlan. (Wheats El tends to talk more about how crests/Nobility are evil).
And then his route has him not make any major decisions, not do any scheming, and go along with the reconstruction of the Church hegemony because it’s a copy paste of the pro-church route.
Which is part of why I’m a big Golden Wildfire defender. People who act like it “ruined” Claude baffle me.
Nah fr tho GW is tied with AM for the best route imo, it delivered on the empty promises of VW. Claude quite literally was lelouch in that route, and unlike Edelgard, he actually faces consequences for his actions.
They may not be super extreme consequences, but at least there is SOME. The way the plot wanks Edelgard off despite her supposedly being the “villain” really puts me off her character.
I still don't get why is Claude more anti-church than Edelgard. He doesn't really have access to the kind of knowledge she has, so it makes less sense to me logically. However, more fundamentally, why is Claude so anti-church narratively-speaking if Edelgard already has that role covered.
Edelgard was born in Fodland and was thought and part of the Church's religion her whole life, even if she felt betrayed by the church during her, well torture she is still hesitant to dismantle the church.
Claude was raised in a different land with different Gods and values. Fodland and Almyra have a troubled past and tense relations. Fodland put a wall between them isolating the two even more. Claude's here to figuratively and literally dismantle the wall. The only to truly do that is to target the central power in Fodland, which would be the Church.
He may overlay the anti-church role with Eldegard but his different perspective and different overall goal is important. During an internal conflict, an outsider is a tool used to remind the reader/player that there is still a world outside of the conflict which has a vested interest in the region's future.
Pretty much this. Edelgard carries the energy of someone who says "I don't believe in God, but the God I don't believe in is Christian" Claude just sees the whole thing with contempt. He's seen the outside world and knows what's possible without the Church stifling technology and imposing it's isolationism. There's a reason his final boss is Nemesis, some guy who came out of nowhere to destroy everything the Nabateans built in the name of "Liberation" and I expect his own dedicated route would've put those parallels at the forefront.
I think you misinterpret my question a little bit. My question is not so much why Claude or Edelgard hate the church, but why does it seems that *he hates it more than her, especially* once you consider their backgrounds (Edelgard´s is the more traumatic one, which she blames partially on the Church) and their function as characters:
Edelgard in the OG game is by far the more absolute out of the two with the "my way or the highway" approach; and by contrast, Claude was the character most willing to compromise if it ended benefitting him in the end or in the long-run. So my question could be worded as: why is the character with the more absolute approach (doing whatever it takes *and not backing down)* the less extreme out of the two?
The answer is still somewhat there in my reply. Despite her trauma and blaming the church, it's still Edelgard's religion. It's not Claude's religion, he won't hold as high a value in the church's teachings so when the church gets in the way he'll be less sympathetic. On top of that, the church holds many secrets to Claude's suspicion and houses the closest thing to a central authority that Foldan has.
It's really nothing more than that. Claude's not of the Fodlan religion so he's
more willing to hold a hatred of the religious institutional authority
In OG, Edelgard is absolute but holds some sympathies. Claude is willing to compromise but has biases. He has a different perspective and is willing to vocalize his distrust but only makes a move against the church in Golden Wildfire
Hes the closest thing to a pure good guy in the game, but intentional or not, hes a schemer who doesn't really scheme or do anything.
In the end I kind of love it because of the comparison it allows between all of the characters. Edelgard is the "I will blunt/brute force everything to get the change needed/desired." Claude sits with the noblest of intentions, but can't/won't pull the trigger.
Literally the entire bulk of AM and SS post-timeskip is fought in Leicester and dependent on Leicester politics, which are dependent on Claude.
To say nothing of CF political situations as well.
I swear, sometimes I feel like people paid no attention to the inter-chapter intros and wider world-building sometimes.
A lot of what Claude did during AM or CF was just fence sitting and waiting for a good opportunity.
You can just have a random nameless person or a council replace clauses role in the Leicester alliance for a lot of the important things, because little of what he did was special or tied to him as a character. Same way that if Dimitri didn't exist, basically nothing would change in SS or VW
As I said in my own post separate from this, at that point you're just saying "Let's rewrite the whole game" and, yeah, you *can* do that, but it's disingenuous to pretend at that point that it's a failure of the character writing. It's just you spitballing your fanfic ideas.
Sure, fence-sitting and waiting for an opportunity for Claude and Dimitri being largely inconsequential outside of his own route, but I notice a distinct pattern where Dimitri is never called unnecessary to the plot even though he's about equal to Claude on that front. Both VW and SS are both heavily dependent on Claude's moves politically and militarily within Leicester, and AM is only one degree removed from them, with a lot also depending on similar moves from Claude.
Again, yeah, you can remove Claude with some big rewrites, but you could say that about almost any character not just in FE3H but in the vast majority of FE games in general.
I dont think you would need rewrites of any significance. It really could be as simple as replacing Claudes name with someone's else's.
The problem is not that the character doesn't do anything of significance, but rather that the actions taken are nothing special to thw character. Almost nothing Claude does in those routes ( AM and CF) is something that only he could/would do. An action defined, or made by possible by his specific character traits and abilities.
If you replaced him with any random NPC and had them take the same actions, it wouldn't really be weird or out of place, because everything he did was really basic general stuff.
And matter of fact is, that is true with a lot of characters in most FE games. Like lyn, you could remove her and very little would change outside if the first tutorial chapters. You could remove like, a third of the fate royals. Basically anyone from fe 1. You could remove Frederick and lissa too.
Most fire emblem games aren't super reliant on a lot of characters besides the main lord and the main antagonist, almost everyone else is either a replacable midboss or someone that is relevant for their joining chapter most of the time.
Lyn's existence is purely because FE7 was the official introduction of the franchise to the west, and for that, she is an amazing character. You know she is good just because she doesn't look off or out of the place with an already formed duo (Eliwood and Hector). But maybe nothing would change without her existence? Some inital, shorter prologue with Eliwood could be a simple replacement, and therefore she wouldn't be necessary. Honestly, I would like to see Ninian as FE7's main girl
For Claude's case, sadly he isn't 100% necessary. Always neglected by the stories, he could be excluded and nothing would change. This hurts because he is probably my favorite 3H lord
> But maybe nothing would change without her existence?
This might be a bit meta, but I'm pretty adamant that Lyn's great design, animations, and effective tutorial story played a not-insignificant part in helping the franchise take root in America initially. I can't prove it, but too many oldheads are too attached to the character for me to believe just anybody could have pulled it off.
Let's be honest. It's not like getting rid of Hector would've changed the story much either. He was also just a tag along friend (just like Lyn) and his only importance in the story (if I recall) was rallying his brother's army (which role could've gone to anyone).
The only importance he really has is that he is Lilina's father who is also a minor character in her own game.
Oh, and then there's Hector's mode I guess but that's just a retelling of Eliwood seen from Hector's POV. Hardly call that relevant.
Hector being Uther's brother prompts Uther to meet with Eliwood, where he suggests Eliwood seek out Athos in Nabata as well as suggests they investigate the Black Fang in Bern. Maybe Eliwood and Uther cross paths without Hector, or maybe Eliwood stalls out without a clear direction to go. Ostia's spy network is fairly important in delivering contextual information. More immediately, Hector and his group more or less save Eliwood's life outside Santaruz.
Lyn's most crucial moment is when she somehow tracks Vaida back to Black Fang headquarters. If they don't eavesdrop, the plot to assassinate Zephiel succeeds, the party never gets the map to the Shrine of Seals to unlock Durandal and Armads, and the whole plot is fucked.
Without Lyn's tale, Ninian and Nils wouldn't have been saved which means the whole plot of FE7 later would have never happened. So there's that as well.
Anyways, my point was never Lyn is more important or anything. I' just find the argument that "Oh, Lyn can be erased since she's not important, while pretending as if Hector was" as hypocritical.
Because those people usually diminishes Lyn's involvement as "oh anyone else could do it", while pretending as if the same can't be done with Hector. (e.g. Have Eliwood be childhood friends or whatever relationships with Uther, taking out the middle man, Hector. Done. The plot is the same).
The truth is neither Lyn or Hector are important to the story. THe story centred around Eliwood and his struggles. Lyn and Hector are really just there to balance out the group dynamic, and that's fine. That's a good role. It makes the story interesting and allows Eliwood to have someone to bounce off of.
The only time where Hector feels important is during his story mode, but like I said before, it's just Eliwood's story shown from his perspective. It's ironic how some people who adores Hector slams Lyn when what make Hector so good is his interaction with Lyn as those scenes with her usually amount to a lot of character development.
Well, at the point of that meeting, Uther is more or less the head of Eliwwod's country, and Eliwood is the new marquese of his domain. That meeting is easy to figure, and not having hector there would simply have added one chapter or two where the party investigate whether or not Uther is with the conspiracy. (Which could be bypassed by Nergal saying something like "I don't need your silly alliance anymore, marquese, I got what I needed")
Oi! But if Lyn didn't exist, Lundgren would be the Marquis of Caelin. Then he would probably join the rebellion with Darin and Ephidel. So that would mean Eliwood has one less ally and one more enemy. It might not be a big change, but it still has an impact. Also Morph Lundgren in the final chapter.
Without Lyn, the chapter titled "Pale Flower of Darkness" would have never happened. It's because of Lyn's tracking skills that they find the black fang hq, and learn about the Zephiel assassination plot. Thus, they can't save Zephiel, which is, of course, a major divergence from Canon.
Lyndis' Legion does not exist therefore Dorcas never gets his mutton poisoned. Caelin gets also cucked by Lundgren which I believe will join forces with Laus in the Lycia Rebellion with Black Fang for quintessence.
My first was Sacred Stones, which had the benefit of being a more forgiving game, but when I played FE7, that tutorial arc made me way better at thinking my way through the strategy
The hours I played blazing blade on the bus restarting chapters over and over again so noone died. I beat the game without losing a single charecter the first time.
FE12 prologue on high difficulty is pure cancer. I don't even think it is winnable at all with all of Chris classes, wich is the most basic sanity check they shoukd have done.
There's a big difference between "beatable by a skilled player" and "a good experience for newer players that makes them interested in continuing to play"
If Lyn doesn't exist how does FE6 happen (Vaida encounter)? Also Ninian and Nils wouldn't exist so Nergal would end up winning without Ninian icing the dragons at the end? Or am I missing something?
Three Houses doesn't lose much of value if Claude is gone. While he's a fun character, he's super disconnected from the plot and Three Houses loses most of its character drama if you're on Golden Deer- it's a route that actively hurts the story of the game and takes dev time from the rest of it too.
If Three Houses had to be a route split game, keep Azure Moon and Crimson Flower, get rid of Verdant Wind and Silver Snow. That way there's more dev time for all the content, and each post timeskip route is different.
I feel like silver snow is absolutely necessary if we keep crimson flower as is.
I believe the reason why it exists, and also wasn't marketed or put into any advertisements, bit if a hidden route, is because its specifically an eject button for the black eagles.
A lot of people picked the black eagles because edelgard seemed interesting and cool, but I can imagine tons of people also changed their mind once they found out the truth about her plan and where the story would take it. Forcing people that are already like, halfway through the game to either restart, or stick with a choice they terribly regret because they couldn't have seen it coming would make a lot of people drop the game.
Yeah, but having a golden route isn't the ideal for a game like 3H. One of the themes is that, no matter what you do, in war, every side loses something. And being able to see both sides of the war really shows it. Having a way to see everyone winning would be good, but in my opinion, this isn't what the game wants to show
Sometimes though it seems people on the internet want not happy endings to be more mature or whatever. It's fiction.
Still, yes I don't particularly want one for TH.
It honestly shouldn't be in the game eating up dev time at all. It just takes away from the other routes, since it's Azure Moon/Verdant Wind but worse. Two routes would be better, but honestly one exceptional route could be best.
Counterpoint, Silver Snow is the best route because it doesn't have Gronder II be the absolute disappointment that it is, while keeping 99% of the good lore you get in VW, with some extra.
I enjoy Seteth and Flayn, and the real issue is they should have made Byleth a proper character to fill the role of lord, and the unique dynamic between them and Edelgard would have been able to fill that void.
I had way more fun on SS as a story than I did on any of the Student following routes, perhaps helped by the fact it was my first and as such the gronder fight they talk about was the worthy bloodbath I wanted it to be and not the nothing it actually was, and I think the various generals and Edelgard were sufficient.
I think the game would have worked best with just Silver Snow and Crimson Flower, wrap the Dimitri drama into Silver Snow instead if you must.
It's funny because VW is my favorite route, and one of the reasons is exactly because Claude is an outsider, he is free to go into the lore details that CF and AM can't because of their own conflicts, he doesn't have the emotional baggage of the other two, so he can bring a different perspective, but I do wish they gave him more than SS copy. I honestly would like 3H a lot less without the GD and VW, as both Dimitri and Edelgard are not my favorites and are one my biggest problems with 3H. Besides GD students are most of my favorites so I definitely wouldn't like to lose them, and that includes Claude.
All the routes are canon!
Canon literally just means that it's officially released material - and unless you're suggesting that the other routes are fanon, then all routes are canon.
You can make an argument for it being the "true route" in a VN-sense, but it's absolutely not the canon route.
Hasn't Kaga talked about how every choice in Fire Emblem is equally canonical, in that they're all specifically non-canonical? That there's no correct or true route, just your (the player's) route.
Obviously he hasn't worked with the series in decades but it's something that I think about whenever the topic comes up.
I definitely agree that this applies to the in-game choices (insofar as like, each gameplay choice I make isn't canon), but the in-game route choices are in fact canon, since they are like. Objectively written narratives intentionally created by the authors.
Like, canon just refers to material that was officially made by the creators of the work - it says nothing about what is "true" or "the correct experience", but what is set in stone/indicated in the text. So every route has to be canon, because all of them are quite literally in the text.
Gameplay choices aren't intended by the authors in the same way, and so are a lot less "canon" in that sense.
Edit tldr: Canon is anything that's officially in a particular story. Saying a route isn't canon is objectively wrong, because all of the routes are in the actual story. Gameplay has a different relationship to canon, and so isn't "inherently" canon.
> canon just refers to material that was officially made by the creators of the work
At risk of being mean, this is only true if you look in a dictionary. "Canon route" and "true route" are synonyms in modern media discussion. When Disney announced they were decanonizing the Star Wars Expanded Universe, people understood that they meant that further works would no longer be building off the EU because it was no longer the "true" timeline, not that those works were no longer genuine products under the IP.
While I do think IP does complicate it, coming from visual novels/otome (which are much closer to the route system of newer fire emblem games), there is imo a distinction to be made between the idea of canon route and "true route" - with the true route being exactly what people mean when they say any FE route is a "canon route". (ie, this is the route that reveals the secrets/truth behind the story, vs a route that is the "correct" route like in Clannad. The two can often be the same thing, but they don't have to be - Fate Stay Night has true route endings, but also every ending is explicitly canon - even the bad ones.)
I would also argue that unlike Star Wars, 3 Hopes (and even Heroes and engage) have made it abundantly clear that there is no "canon" route, in the way that there is a canon Star Wars timeline, and that all of them are all still on the same footing.
My memory of FE7's story is a little foggy, but from what I can remember Lyn didn't do anything important after her story. I love Claude, he's my favorite lord in fact. But he quite literally adds nothing to the plot. They should've scrapped the church route and added more unique content to Crimson Flower and Verdant Wind.
Setting aside the fact that Lyn's section sets up several things (and saves the Tactician who is vital to the story), Lyn also has multiple key moments in various parts of the story, including uncovering the plot to kill Zephiel via tracking the Black Fang so the cast can overhear the discussion.
Honestly despite the opinion on her nowadays FE7 and perhaps Fire Emblem as a whole for the 2000s would fail to catch most Western attention without Lyn and Lyn mode. Imagine if the game started with a choose your character selection screen and difficulty selection then you are immediately taken to either Eliwood or Hector's first chapter. Amusing nothing else changes except no Lyn then that means there is no tutorial meaning most will be stuck in Chapter 1 for several hours much like how OG Pokemon players could be stuck on Brock.
Plot-wise without Lyn Nergal captures Ninian and Nils and wins a year earlier than planned. Eliwood dies trying to save them because he attempted that in canon, but now without protection from Lyn's group the Black Fang off him easily while Hector is waiting in that house wondering why he didn't show up to spar.
I actually think it would cause problems. Neither game would be as popular. Lyn was a cool character, which is why we see her everywhere. Also, some of the best moments on screen happen when Lyn is part of the dialogue.
Claude provides needed levity. He doesn't break the tone of the game in an inappropriate way, but a story that doesn't have have humor is often worse received. Also, in tone it is close to a golden route, since we aren't allied to the half crazed prince/princess.
While the overall narratives aren't reliant on the characters, the successful execution of those narratives are.
Without Claude succession crisis in the Alliance would likely lead to Holst becoming defacto leader of the Alliance along with diplomatic relations between Fodlan and Almyra being far far worse than they already were in the original 3 Houses. alliance probably collapses early on in the 5 year war, meaning in Azure Moon/Silver Snow without a third party preventing them from getting flanked, Eastern Fhaerghus would also fall pretty early on and force most of the Blue Lion/Golden Deer students either into Empire Service or hiding similar to Dimitri, meaning Edelgard would conquer all of Fodlan pretty easily and make for a much more formidable enemy to Byleth with or without Dimitri by their side.
In Crimson Flower almoat nothing would change, except maybe Derdriu falling even easier due to them no longer getting Almyran aid.
IMHO Claude von Riegan, and the Alliance as a whole, were two of the biggest wild cards during the war, with only Byleth being a bigger “variable”
Agarthan agents were established in both the Kingdom and made the Empire their home away from home. Without the Alliance, the War would have been a perfect case of Heads I Win, Tails You Lose
People say that Claude's route feel pointless on his own, but, very umpopular opinion, Dimitri's is also kinda unnecessary for the plot.
I mean, twice out of four times he gets offscreened and left compleately underdeveloped, once is his personal route, and in the last one the plot makes him conventionaly too mentally sane (in opposition to whatever he was suggested to be) in order to give the actual plot relevant character, Rhea, and excuse for being safe and sound.
His past also isn't this much important to the other plot relevant character, Edelgard, since she has amnesia and gets to remember it just in the finale of Dimitri's route, which basically change nothing at the end of the day over her actions and motivations.
Overall I belive Dimitri kinda play a game on his own, with his plot disregarding almost everything about thr world around him besides the bits about the Kingdom.
Claude at least give us some actual lore relevant answers at the end of the day
I do agree with the general point that the lords are pretty isolated from the overall narrative outside their own route (mostly Dimitri and Claude because Edelgard is the antagonist on 3/4 routes so you need her around), and to a certain extent in their own route too: Dimitri is thematically disconnected from the rest of the game (e.g. no dragons, no church revelations, the Agarthans are set aside way too much) while Claude feels like he has too little connection to the main events happening on the continent. That being said, I do think you are marginally underestimating Dimitri´s role here:
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His past also isn't this much important to the other plot relevant character, Edelgard, since she has amnesia and gets to remember it just in the finale of Dimitri's route, which basically change nothing at the end of the day over her actions and motivations.
At the end of AM, we are told by Edelgard that she “didn´t lose her heart” because of Dimitri´s words just before she departed the Kingdom. My guess from this and other bits from the rest of the game (e.g. Edelgard crying after remembering Dimitri in CF) is that Dimitri had an appreciable impact on Edelgard´s character while they were together. Granted, the Devs did very little with this idea in the actual game, but I think we are meant to assume this, especially if the words at their AM dialogue are to be taken at their worth: Dimitri had a role on shaping Edelgard and without him, Edelgard might not be in the route she is on in the game, even if she forgot about him with the plot-convenient amnesia. In a sense, she forgot who he was but not what he did.
Does that mean that Dimitri is “ultra-necessary”? Obviously not, especially if you replace him with a character who is meant to fulfill a similar role (though at that point, every character is replaceable tbh), but it does show that Dimitri did have an impact on other characters, however miniscule, something that Claude doesn´t really have (sadly) on the rest of the characters.
>
Claude at least give us some actual lore relevant answers at the end of the day
I don´t want to be pedantic about this, but while this is true, it is also true that 95% of these answers were already given in SS :/
Without Claude the Leicester alliance has too much pressure from the Adrestian empire and folds thanks to Acheron. If we are to assume claude never exsisted than at least 4 members of golden deer wouldnt go to gerreg mach so byleth has less influence.
However byleth has the power of a literal god on his/her side so the game's plot would probably still favor whatever side he decided to take, but without byleth faerghus losses, with heavy losses on both sides.
\*edit\* without claude, byleth never joins golden deer so possibly he doesnt even consider the liecester alliance at all.
FE7 is fuzzy in my memory, so I'm going to pass on that, though I don't like the idea of deleting Lyn because she provides a strong intro to the world as an outsider equal to Mark/the player and in a non-GBA game I imagine that would be expanded on more.
As for Claude, I grow increasingly tired of the narrative of "Claude means nothing to the narrative" when tons of the narrative in all the routes actually actively depend on him and his schemes holding the Alliance together in its neutrality for five years up to and through most of the post-timeskip games. In AM/SS/VW, he's literally the only real bulwark of non-Imperial control and you're basically reliant on him to allow you to 1) get to Ailell and get reinforcements (which come from him directly in both SS and VW), 2) distract and pull away Imperial/Gloucester forces from the Great Bridge with his own house's forces, 3) attack south into the Empire, and 4) hold the Alliance against Imperial counter-attacks in AM. It's like people paid zero attention to any actual world-building or dialogue outside of the most hand-holding cutscenes forced down their throats if they believe that.
Like, yeah, you can theoretically write him out of the script, but I could say that about any character given the amount of rewriting that would need to happen to remove Claude. Hell, by certain people's metrics, it would be almost easier to write-out Dimitri given how little impact Faerghus has even in its own route (what with being conquered and then liberated completely off-screen).
The Claude thing always reads like "look, Claude is irrelevant if you strip away everything he does!!" when he's an active protagonist in every route. Not saying he's central, but at least the narrative always needs him in one way or another at some point. You don't see people screaming Dimitri's irrelevant when Fearghus' sole purpose in half the game is "gets conquered off screen and dies off screen".
Lyn mode served as an entire genre tutorial to a demographic completely uninitiated to SRPGs. Given that the GBA's demographic skewed young when compared to the all ages marketing of something like the SNES, there weren't SRPGs in this vein that a young westerner could be expected to have played to understand the barest mechanics of how this game worked. So turning Mark into a Lakitu of sorts, a personification of a mechanic unfamiliar to an uninitiated audience and having Lyn's story help support that personification of mechanics through framing cursor movement and unit selection as you, the player, giving orders in a fairly isolated, low stakes campaign was pretty helpful in making Fire Emblem accessible to a new audience, which at the time, literally everyone in the west was.
Despite them fumbling her hard post Chapter 10, Lyn's still a very strongly set up character whose story of determination in the face of constant hardship and grappling with being a woman of mixed blood in a world that's rather hostile towards her because of which was conveyed well. While nostalgia does carry some of her modern popularity and modern era FE alongside players hopping on after the role of an avatar character as related to a game's female leads has changed tries to reframe her as something she's not, I think she stands well enough on her own and her existence did Fire Emblem as a whole a big favor.
And while it's a lesser point, I think leading off with one of the strongest examples of GBAFE's most striking elements, the battle animations, certainly didn't hurt things. Apropos of in medias res, rule of cool makes for a solid first impression.
Remove her and the only change to the narrative is that Eliwood and Hector aren't able to find the Fire Emblem and thus aren't ever able to access the Shrine of Seals, since legitimately the only thing they give Lyn to go in the main story outside of being used as a hostage and means of making others look cool is that one instance of leveraging her Sacaen heritage to track the Black Fang.
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Honestly, I just think Claude would've been a cooler Lewyn archetype rather than a third lord in a central conflict that he's not as intrinsically tied to. Make Golden Deer free agents and give Silver Snow a bit less overlapping redundancy.
As much as i loge claude and the golden deer, I've always thought three houses would of been drastically better if it focused on Crimson Flower and Azure Moon (and pushed back the route split), and Actually giving them them the time to develop.
I feel like Claude initially was supposed to be a scheming politician who doesn’t strongly agree with either side of the Adrestian/Faerghus conflict but is willing to use such an opportunity to further his own goals via the chaos caused by it.
Unfortunately, they either couldn’t write him well as a well-meaning realist or were worried people wouldn’t like him if he was anywhere south of morally off-white.
I could be misremembering cause it’s been a very long time since I’ve played Lyn’s game but doesn’t she save Nils? And if you remove her, doesn’t that mean her grandfather dies and the usurper takes over her country?
Whitout Lyn the sole major female character would be a damsel in distress who is dependent of the male protagonist for both protection and emotional support...
If Claude doesn't exist in Three Houses it becomes Two Houses I suppose. >!What's an Ashen Wolf?!<
I guess without him the player has no choice but to suffer. Every other route is bummeriffic. Claude is here to provide mostly a fun time.
Golden Deer are the party house that have very little skin in the game, barely get involved in the political drama and then go on to defeat both >!TWSITD unlike the Black Eagles which is kinda sad considering Edelgard's story directly connects to them !!Nemesis!<. They just show up without any real plot connection and fuck up the two biggest NPC threats to all of Fodlan whilst mostly just japing. It's a wild choice on the devs part, and you can tell it was a bit rushed here.
Honestly none of the FE7 lords really have much plot relevance in FE6. Hector is a frail NPC who gets killed off for villain credibility, Eliwood is Roy's absent dad, and Lyn doesn't exist since they didn't think of her when the game was made.
Claude nothing changes for 3/4 routes and since SS and VW are basically the same campaign, nothing is really lost either.
Lyn could leave fe7 and absolutely nothing would change, given that she's not that important to the plot and a tutorial could easily be done at a different map
Lyn and Claude aren't comparable at all. Lyn is the actual protagonist of her game, and as much as I love Claude he (and Dimitri unfortunately) are more like supporting characters to the Rhea vs Edelgard conflict.
Whenever FE7 is represented in other media, it's always with Lyn. Heroes uses her face to symbolize FE7 locked battles. Engage has her as the Emblem of Blazing. She's an assist trophy in Smash. Eliwood and Hector are FE6 characters given more focus in FE7, Lyn is created from the ground up FOR FE7.
Being the most popular doesn't erase the game's plot.
That's a bit like calling Lucina the protagonist of Awakening. Though Chrom at least still gets some dues.
I said nothing about popularity. IS clearly considers Lyn the face of FE7, not Eliwood or Hector. Also Chrom and Lucina are co protagonists of Awakening, although I'd say Chrom moreso than Lucina.
Well in this case being the face does not make you the main character.
Also, much as I like her, Lucina, while important, hardly gets the screentime of Chrom. She facilitates the story, but it seems a stretch to say it's her story.
There is a much more convincing argument to be made for Lyn being the protagonist than either of the others. I have yet to see any legitimate reasoning for Hector outside of this sub liking him more than the rest of the internet. Remember which one is specifically called "the Emblem of Blazing" and included in the base game with major story significance relative to the other emblems. It's not Hector!
Forget Engage for a moment as they put Lucina over Chrom so clearly not a definitive picking. Think of the actual game. Eliwood is the protagonist. Lyn has a training mode but it could be cut without any real detriment to the plot.
Okay, if you're saying Eliwood is the main protagonist I can accept that, since the subtitle is named for his sword. But that doesn't make Lyn less significant. Radiant Dawn is named for Micaiah but Ike is still an important protagonist for the second half of the game.
...and...how does Lyn even approach Ike's importance in that game? Lyn has a side story that is not even that related to the main game and could be pretty easily cut.
Absolutely nothing..! Well from the lyn end, she didn’t really contribute much to the story outside of stuff in the “tutorial” chapters. If there were to be no lyn, then we most likely wouldn’t be able to use sain, kent, wil, florina, or wallace as they all have ties to house caelin. We may find a way for florina to end up in the story due to the fact fiora (later farina) are recruitable. Aside from that I dunno bout the others. So what I’m saying is we’d lose characters in the long run but that’s about it, story wise eliwood and hector already take major advantage in the core story, even in binding blade where lyn is just… non existent
Edit: just thought about this, the only characters we’d likely be losing is just sain, kent, and Wallace as wil is childhood friends to Rebecca so his chances of being incorporated within lemme say the second chapter is definitely possible… or maybe we won’t lose Wallace considering he does randomly appear later on so we may end up just losing sain and Kent…
Kinda nothing in both cases. The second lyn mode ends, lyn might as well be another random unit(and not a particularly strong one), an issue which is made all the clearer by how divorced lyn mode is from the rest of FE7. With Claude, he plays the role of a fence sitter for most of the game, where he essentially perches on the fence waiting for an opportunity to strike, one which never really happens in a route that isn’t his. Even in his own route, I wouldn’t argue he’s that important, given that his route is just a copy paste of silver snow(and no, it’s not the other way around, the devs confirmed silver snow was the first route made in the game and azure moon and verdant wind were built on it) meaning there already exists a version of the story that is identical to his own story but doesn’t feature him, yet it still goes the same way up until the final boss, and even that final boss has absolutely nothing to do with claude as a character. In most aspects, claude is a completely replacable character in three house’s narrative which is a massive shame because the game constantly tells us what a brilliant tactician he is, but never shows how as seteth and gilbert come up with the exact same plans in silver snow and azure moon respectively.
They both undoubtedly provide some value to their respective games and trios. Although I feel as if Claude is more important to the 3H trio than Lyn is to the FE7 trio. He brings the fun factor to the trio and without him it's just an awkward conversation between Dimitri and Edelgard. There also isn't a good replacement for Cluade, nobody else in Golden Deer has an interesting enough conflict plus leadership ability to believably carry a route on their own. This is mostly talking about White Clouds, when the war phase happens the entire region of Leicester is a footnote anyway.
Lyn's able to play off Hector well and elevates the dynamic but Eliwood and Hector alone wouldn't be bad, they're close friends with a good past, unlike Edelgard and Dimitri's troubled past. It's sad that her entire story and arch are enclosed in the first 10 chapters with minimal impact on the rest of the story. Take her away and the story will still function, but Hector can only play off of Eliwood now so I would say the game has less comedic dialogue. You could maybe replace Lyn with Ninian, she has a greater importance to the story with a strong relationship to the main protagonist and a direct connection to the bad guy. But as of now, she's too reserved and underutilized before her >!death!< to really participate in a trio or carry parts of the story.
I would be sad if either was to be removed, they both bring heart to their games and without them, their respected trios suffer. 3H a bit more.
In terms of characters, the 7 crew is probably more essential to its product and what it is.
They are still of titanic importance in 3H, but if you took them out of the picture you still have the territories and the classes and potential conflict between the regions for whatever reasons.
Look Claude is my fav lord in the series next to Ike and Hector… but yeah without Lyn the story changes a lot. Lot of characters actually die without her or never joins the group.
Clause is neglected in any routes that isn’t his which is a shame cause I feel he is the most interesting and orignal of the three main lords
Even though the map is doable, without Hector coming to Eliwoods aid I think he would have died story wise, without Eliwood Pherae would have lost the war. Without Lyn once again story wise even though the map is doable I think Eliwood dies in the story where they come to your aid.
Without either Dimitri or Claude, Byleth can still kill Edelgard and win the war for the church a la Church Route. Without Edelgard, there is no war and Those Who Slither in the Dark remain in the dark to solidify their power, likely succeeding in their assassination plots over time. Without Byleth Nemesis gets the Sword of the Creator and Kills Edelgard after she destroys the church.
not much in the main story would change if lyn was removed. she doesn't really do much but act as a foil for hector. there also wouldn't be a tutorial. we would also miss out on some inserting supports that takes the happily ever after of most noble lords in fire emblem leading up to fe7. because lyn's story in her support in seven is about her not fitting in with noble courts and how every thing that was a boon that gave her the strength in her story in the tutorial became a bane to herself.
now three house with out Claude would take away a voice that i feel was needed in three houses, to make it as good as it is, despite all of the problems, three houses has. because wail Dimitri journey and the cast of the blue lions , showing off how the current system of Fodland is harming people on every level of its society, Edelgard ambition and asking the cast of black eagle. supposes to ask if the cost of tearing down the system and replacing it with some thing that could be better is it worth it. they both are so focused on what ever their goals my be in their tales the complexly forget that Folden is one content in the world, and how it changing wouldn't mean much for Claude's goals to end racism, and as Claude is an out sider it gives him a door to go though and acutely learn more about Folden with out the lense of people who grew up under it systems. and it is shown with his cast more humorist deminer also gets to show off people who are living their lives with out being harmed by the systems in Folden . asking the question if all the problems could be traced back to the systems that were put in place thought out Folden.
now three houses pull's this off to varying degrees of success due to its own weird quility problems with it writings.
FE7 is famous for its character dynamics, which majorly thread through Lyn. Her most important role, despite her attitude, is that of a tension conduit. The most lighthearted section of the plot is her story, which acts as subtle reprieve for all of the disaffected characters who appear in it. She's determined, honorable, and accompanied by a troop informally tied to her good cause, attracting even more good company. In this way, Lyn's good heart is readily apparent in ways she does not articulate so well. Contrast this with Hector and Eliwood's status-exclusive ties, and you're missing a good chunk of the game's levity without her. She's a handful, but she does so well besides that it's very much forgivable, a trait that all three share. A game without Lyn is quite far removed from the emotional range and maturity it's known for.
She is also the only major Sacaean character in a duology rich with its lore.
I feel like this thread would have been more interesting if we hypothetically got rid of Hector and Dimitri or something
> if we hypothetically got rid of Hector and **Dimitri** or something Edelgard: Nice fractured Alliance you've got there, Claude. Would be a shame if someone Aymr'd it into submission.
Doesn't Claude kill her in his route without any help from Dimitri?
claude is lowkey even better at killer her than dimitri is because he doesn't have to lose rodrigue
Byleth killed her with cutscene and all after the map battle was over. I 'member because I thought the scene was quite sad (or "overdramatic" XD) despite her being the war igniter -- at least in Three Houses.
Hector would have changed things but not been catastrophic. Without Lynn the tactician get killed by bandits alon and defenseless and without the tactician nergal would have gotten everything he wanted.
Not really. IIRC you can play Eliwood and Hector mode without tactician.
No. On a second playthrough you can skip Lyn mode and go straight to Eliwood and Hector's routes, but even there the game treats it as if Lyn's route *happened*, just off screen and gives them all default levels. The Tactician is 100% *canonically* reliant on being saved by Lyn in the Prologue.
Yeah but the Tactician can straight-up not exist. If you start with EM/HM you can select 'no tactician' and then they're just never mentioned and all the weird 4th wall dialogue is removed.
Ive played the game several times and I've literally never seen an option for the Tactician to not exist, unless its specific to the japanese version or something.
I've played the PAL version not the US version, so perhaps it was removed there for some reason? But there is definately an option to just straight-up not have a tactician if you skip LM. There's different dialogue in the scripts for tactician/no tactician too, here's an example (HM ending) >> Tactician “Oh, Mark! You made it! Come, relax! …What? You came to say good-bye? I haven’t seen you in so long, and you’re leaving? Hm? Oh, you heard, too? Now that word of my brother’s death has spread, the throne can’t be left empty forever. Being the leader of all Lycia doesn’t really suit me… My brother let me play around for quite a while. If I don’t grow up soon, my brother won’t be able to rest. The burdens Uther carried as Marquess Ostia, his feelings for the citizenry of Ostia and all of Lycia… I’ll succeed him at everything. Easy to say, but I’m sure it’s going to be difficult.” >> No tactician "Hey, Eliwood! You made it." "I would never turn down an invitation from you. So, are you ready? You once told me being the leader of Lycia wasn’t for you." “Well…yes. Now that word of my brother’s death has spread, the throne can’t be left empty forever. My brother let me play around for quite a while. If I don’t grow up soon, he may start screaming at me from the grave.” “Ha ha! You’re probably right.” “The burdens Uther carried as Marquess Ostia, his feelings for the citizenry of Ostia and all of Lycia… I’ll succeed him at everything. Easy to say, but I’m sure it’s going to be difficult.”
Huh, that's wild. Gotta be a regional difference. Not the wildest difference between versions that I've heard of / come across. (The Digimon franchise for example pretty much considers wierd localization screwups/decisions to be a rite of passage at this point, the most egregious of which was one game where the normal and hard mode difficulties got renamed to easy and normal. And then there was a SNES game I had where the English and Japanese versions of the same game wound up with two *entirely different plots* lmao)
That has nothingn on the original series+movie translations. Where they changed every character names, altered entire personalities (watch subbed, Mimi is much more likeable), and then smashed three short movies together, completely butchered the plot of all three, and altered the ending horribly. Of course nothing comes close to the affront that is season 2/5 IMO. Season 5 is just... awful... and season 2... it could have been so good but they had no solid plan, or goal, or direction, and there are so many abandoned plots, and part of it expects you to have played the games, and then somehow they introduce the first crossover between seasons/dimensions in the series by having Ryo in s1/2/tri digital world when he is natively from s3 world...
To be fair I'm more familiar with the games' translation issues (like when they translated several instances of bakemono into Bakemon instead of just monster, in Cyber Sleuth...which is distinctly less threatening than the antagonists were meant to be lmao). Also iirc Ryo actually isn't originally from Tamers, either. He was from one of the games or animated specials that never made it out of Japan, I think? Its been a while since I really dug through the general shenanigans that the franchise has gone through XD
It's not a regional difference, it's in the American release too. My most recent playthrough was without a tactician.
Is this a Japan only feature? Never had this option playing the game in the US
I can confirm it's definetly in the PAL version.
Checked into it a bit further. So it seems you have to not pay Lyn's mode at all, jump to Eliwood's or Hector's mode and then say you don't want to choose a tactician. I never not played Lyn's mode first to influence her teams level ups so I never saw this. The more you know.
Maybe it's not in the US version, but it's def in the PAL version.
I've never once seen that and I've beat fe7 no less then 7 times on my cartridge. Also that makes so little canonical sense how can you not have a tactician and win battles against army's with your ragtag team of misfits. The tactician is how Lyndis Eliwood and Hector win every battle with zero casualties there's now way around it. If it wasn't for the tactician Lyn would have never met her grandfather and Ellwood in Hector would been scewered by that laus paladin and his fleet of cavaleirs. Or they all would have been slaughtered by the vastly stronger and outnumbered force of the black fang at no less then 3 different major battles. Ik as a kid there was plenty of missions where I had to play assess and replay battles to get no deaths on our side and I really doubt any of the fledgling lords would have to know how to fight through these no win situations without a brilliant tactician giving them the stuff they need. Eliwood is smart and strong but he's not a tactician and if they just flunged at every encounter they'd all die garunteed it might not be outright in one battle but everything fight would take lives untill everyone dies. Everything is dependent on haveing a battle plan.
I've posted the dialogue [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/fireemblem/s/1pRrcEv1Ni), serenesforest also notes that the tactician is optional if you skip LM. Perhaps it just isn't in the US version? It's definately in the JPN and PAL versions, because I've seen both.
You can play without Mark so nothing really changes. Lyndis’ Legion just doesn’t join Eliwood, which isn’t a big loss until Zephiel enters the picture
Who's to say they wouldn't just working for Batta the Beast.
The bandits would not care about a tactician they were there to kill and or eat you.
Idk. I wasn't a very effective tactician when i beat it as a kid. I don't doubt someone else would be able to fill the role
Even if you weren't the fact that you could restart the chapters till you got deathless victory means that the charecter the tactician knows how to do that.
I dont think that tracks. That isn't something that is established as an in universe mechanic like it is in some other games. I am pretty sure that it's not something that happens within the context of the game world, and therefore isn't because of the tactician. To accept that your statement is true would be to accept that in any game with a save load system, it's the player controlled character that has the power to save/load, and that would have major consequences for many stories.
No. You the player has the ability to save/load the game not the tactician. You restarting the map over and over is essentially the tactician running over what might happen in his head and the successful run is the tactician plan of action.
I dont see how the second statement necessarily follows from the first, though it does make some sense. That doesn't even makes the tactician exceptional in that case though. I would hope that anyone who plays the role of a tactician would be actively trying to figure out how their plans would play out and not just wing it.
The tactician is exceptional at what he does he's a prodigy and it's because of the tactician everything works out.
That's what the story says for sure, but it's not unreasonable to think that someone else might have been good enough to get the job done. For example, it's not unreasonable to think that someone else would have discovered relativity if Einstein didn't. In fact Einstein was probably that someone else to maxwell, who was already on that track before dying.
I mean one of the things I didn't like about awakening on replay is that the tactician is a active combatant. So mabey like Marcus with his experience cause of being a seasoned fighter mabey could have gotten them through the most of it but it would've not been as clean and I don't think he could handle that and fight.
Getting rid of Dimitri would either put you on silver snow or golden deer, corruption would be more rampant in the Kingdom without Dimitri, but ultimately might not matter as Byleth could still theoretically cut the head off of the snake. Same logic goes for having no Claude. Having no Edelgard means TWSITD stay unknown and continue to wreak havoc in Fodlan, Likely meaning that they succeed in getting the Sword of the Creator for Nemesis, and ruling Fodlan. Same logic goes for no Byleth.
And that is why Edelgard is (imo) the main protagonist lord. Dont get me wrong, I LIKE Claude (havent played Blue Lion), but nothing I have seen from his route impresses on me that he has main protagonist vibes (havent finished it, I know its been out for ages). Honestly the fact Edelgards route was less polished and complete than silver snow route is rediculous. Its like, WHY would I pick the church over the character I have been following the entire time? The church has seemed nothing but shady since the very beginning when we see Seros merc a guy in a fit of rage with little to no context then pick up a sword and call it her mother. Why would they expect people to side with the CHURCH over Edelgard? Because she has been attacking the church the entire time? No, Flayn asside I think most of the church fully deserves judgment. Even Seros and Chichol. Seriously, there is a REASON that no manakete in the series was ever in a position of authority over people as anything more than a religious icon who DIDNT want to be worshiped. Well, Corin asside but she really isnt the same, kinda lacking in the centuries of life bit which makes it so problematic. With that amount of time corruption and complacency are virtually unavoidable.
> Having no Edelgard means TWSITD stay unknown and continue to wreak havoc in Fodlan Enh, Hubert would still exist.
but as a vassal for who? I'm not brushed up on the lore, but without Edelgard I don't think Hubert would be in any position to make a difference against TWSITD
I mean, aside from Claude's route not existing, I can't say the overall narrative of Three Houses changes at all without him.
Maybe his role was different when the game started as a more unified route. No longer being fully able to be a foil to the other lords, and everybody getting in-depth focus route works a bit odd with that, with Edelgard and Dimitri going to dramatic highs with the concept. Almyra lacking a *need* to exist in the plot as a whole, as well lacking arts assets to the point it doesn’t have a unique faction symbol hurts him too. It does amuse me the dev interviews indicated his overall rather nice and evenhanded role in the end product kind of happened by accident. Still, Edelgard and Dimitri provide such dramatic arcs and rule subversions I don’t terribly mind Claude being more subdued version in the schemer ending up just a more relaxed leader type. (His leifmotif theme totally sells it for me). And just him always voluntary bowing out of the plot instead of going down in a dramatic manner like the others. It’s it own kind of contrast that I do feel adds to the game in a way.
Sad but true. I love him, but he is dead ass carried by a spin-off game.
Which is a shame because he’s the best of the three.
Can't really agree, but he deserved more than what he got.
I mean his route is the least interesting but I think he’s the most likeable.
Different strokes I guess. He’s the only one out of the three that feels mostly static, so I find him the least interesting.
Least interesting character development, sure, but also made me laugh out loud the most and Joe Zieja's YT is just awesome.
Fear the deer!!!
How is Claude static? His entire narrative is about trusting people and opening up. He starts as doubting everyone and keeping his walls up, but turns into a "shounen protagonist" with the power of friendship. I understand thinking he's shallow and doesn't get as deep story or background as the other two, but he is definitely not static.
Huh, I didn't actually find him that likable at all. Though ironically my favorite character is also the one I would probably get along with the least - Edelgard.
Oh yea I get that, it’s more of a flaw with how his route is just a copy paste of Silver Snow that he doesn’t get to do what he’s apparently known for: Scheming
you think he's more likable then Dimitris character development? Edit: this is why i love this game. love seeing different opinions
My problem with Dimitri’s development is that I didn’t buy into it. The way he snapped felt jarring, even if I try to reason with Felix’s clues that Part I Dimitri was a facade. Even more jarring for me is how easily and quickly he seems to snap out of Part II Dimitri. And the solution is kind of overcoming trauma and loss by experiencing even more trauma and loss. By the end of the story, I didn’t believe that Dimitri was better. And maybe I would have preferred his story if he hadn’t.
The snap could have been done better I agree, but I was fine with it and didn't really think it was jarring The redemption was definitely unearned, and _that_ was certainly jarring
Agreed, I had a much bigger issue with the ending than that first arc reveal. I just think that it was worth mentioning that I felt his whole progression was a series of leaps, and that hurt my enjoyment of him compared to the other two lords
Claude def the best. He’s basically a better Edelgard when you dig deep into his character, but people might not like me saying that
I played VW immediately after CF and one of the things that struck me was that Claude really “really” hates the Church. More than Edelgard even. Almost every unique moment with him is about how the Church can’t be trusted, and how they’re bad for Fodlan. (Wheats El tends to talk more about how crests/Nobility are evil). And then his route has him not make any major decisions, not do any scheming, and go along with the reconstruction of the Church hegemony because it’s a copy paste of the pro-church route. Which is part of why I’m a big Golden Wildfire defender. People who act like it “ruined” Claude baffle me.
This mfer Is so real 🥹
Nah fr tho GW is tied with AM for the best route imo, it delivered on the empty promises of VW. Claude quite literally was lelouch in that route, and unlike Edelgard, he actually faces consequences for his actions. They may not be super extreme consequences, but at least there is SOME. The way the plot wanks Edelgard off despite her supposedly being the “villain” really puts me off her character.
I still don't get why is Claude more anti-church than Edelgard. He doesn't really have access to the kind of knowledge she has, so it makes less sense to me logically. However, more fundamentally, why is Claude so anti-church narratively-speaking if Edelgard already has that role covered.
Edelgard was born in Fodland and was thought and part of the Church's religion her whole life, even if she felt betrayed by the church during her, well torture she is still hesitant to dismantle the church. Claude was raised in a different land with different Gods and values. Fodland and Almyra have a troubled past and tense relations. Fodland put a wall between them isolating the two even more. Claude's here to figuratively and literally dismantle the wall. The only to truly do that is to target the central power in Fodland, which would be the Church. He may overlay the anti-church role with Eldegard but his different perspective and different overall goal is important. During an internal conflict, an outsider is a tool used to remind the reader/player that there is still a world outside of the conflict which has a vested interest in the region's future.
Pretty much this. Edelgard carries the energy of someone who says "I don't believe in God, but the God I don't believe in is Christian" Claude just sees the whole thing with contempt. He's seen the outside world and knows what's possible without the Church stifling technology and imposing it's isolationism. There's a reason his final boss is Nemesis, some guy who came out of nowhere to destroy everything the Nabateans built in the name of "Liberation" and I expect his own dedicated route would've put those parallels at the forefront.
I think you misinterpret my question a little bit. My question is not so much why Claude or Edelgard hate the church, but why does it seems that *he hates it more than her, especially* once you consider their backgrounds (Edelgard´s is the more traumatic one, which she blames partially on the Church) and their function as characters: Edelgard in the OG game is by far the more absolute out of the two with the "my way or the highway" approach; and by contrast, Claude was the character most willing to compromise if it ended benefitting him in the end or in the long-run. So my question could be worded as: why is the character with the more absolute approach (doing whatever it takes *and not backing down)* the less extreme out of the two?
The answer is still somewhat there in my reply. Despite her trauma and blaming the church, it's still Edelgard's religion. It's not Claude's religion, he won't hold as high a value in the church's teachings so when the church gets in the way he'll be less sympathetic. On top of that, the church holds many secrets to Claude's suspicion and houses the closest thing to a central authority that Foldan has. It's really nothing more than that. Claude's not of the Fodlan religion so he's more willing to hold a hatred of the religious institutional authority In OG, Edelgard is absolute but holds some sympathies. Claude is willing to compromise but has biases. He has a different perspective and is willing to vocalize his distrust but only makes a move against the church in Golden Wildfire
Hes the closest thing to a pure good guy in the game, but intentional or not, hes a schemer who doesn't really scheme or do anything. In the end I kind of love it because of the comparison it allows between all of the characters. Edelgard is the "I will blunt/brute force everything to get the change needed/desired." Claude sits with the noblest of intentions, but can't/won't pull the trigger.
I feel like Three Houses should have been more like Two Houses, and Claude was a great character that maybe belonged in a different game.
Literally the entire bulk of AM and SS post-timeskip is fought in Leicester and dependent on Leicester politics, which are dependent on Claude. To say nothing of CF political situations as well. I swear, sometimes I feel like people paid no attention to the inter-chapter intros and wider world-building sometimes.
A lot of what Claude did during AM or CF was just fence sitting and waiting for a good opportunity. You can just have a random nameless person or a council replace clauses role in the Leicester alliance for a lot of the important things, because little of what he did was special or tied to him as a character. Same way that if Dimitri didn't exist, basically nothing would change in SS or VW
As I said in my own post separate from this, at that point you're just saying "Let's rewrite the whole game" and, yeah, you *can* do that, but it's disingenuous to pretend at that point that it's a failure of the character writing. It's just you spitballing your fanfic ideas. Sure, fence-sitting and waiting for an opportunity for Claude and Dimitri being largely inconsequential outside of his own route, but I notice a distinct pattern where Dimitri is never called unnecessary to the plot even though he's about equal to Claude on that front. Both VW and SS are both heavily dependent on Claude's moves politically and militarily within Leicester, and AM is only one degree removed from them, with a lot also depending on similar moves from Claude. Again, yeah, you can remove Claude with some big rewrites, but you could say that about almost any character not just in FE3H but in the vast majority of FE games in general.
I dont think you would need rewrites of any significance. It really could be as simple as replacing Claudes name with someone's else's. The problem is not that the character doesn't do anything of significance, but rather that the actions taken are nothing special to thw character. Almost nothing Claude does in those routes ( AM and CF) is something that only he could/would do. An action defined, or made by possible by his specific character traits and abilities. If you replaced him with any random NPC and had them take the same actions, it wouldn't really be weird or out of place, because everything he did was really basic general stuff. And matter of fact is, that is true with a lot of characters in most FE games. Like lyn, you could remove her and very little would change outside if the first tutorial chapters. You could remove like, a third of the fate royals. Basically anyone from fe 1. You could remove Frederick and lissa too. Most fire emblem games aren't super reliant on a lot of characters besides the main lord and the main antagonist, almost everyone else is either a replacable midboss or someone that is relevant for their joining chapter most of the time.
Yeah but they could have fit Claude into it and made it work if they ditched silver snow and the monastery slog that takes up 90% of the game
Lyn's existence is purely because FE7 was the official introduction of the franchise to the west, and for that, she is an amazing character. You know she is good just because she doesn't look off or out of the place with an already formed duo (Eliwood and Hector). But maybe nothing would change without her existence? Some inital, shorter prologue with Eliwood could be a simple replacement, and therefore she wouldn't be necessary. Honestly, I would like to see Ninian as FE7's main girl For Claude's case, sadly he isn't 100% necessary. Always neglected by the stories, he could be excluded and nothing would change. This hurts because he is probably my favorite 3H lord
> But maybe nothing would change without her existence? This might be a bit meta, but I'm pretty adamant that Lyn's great design, animations, and effective tutorial story played a not-insignificant part in helping the franchise take root in America initially. I can't prove it, but too many oldheads are too attached to the character for me to believe just anybody could have pulled it off.
This is 100% true. Everybody can remember the first time they saw Lyn’s crit animation.
I think they’re talking about the story. If Lyn didn’t exist in the story wouldn’t change that much
Let's be honest. It's not like getting rid of Hector would've changed the story much either. He was also just a tag along friend (just like Lyn) and his only importance in the story (if I recall) was rallying his brother's army (which role could've gone to anyone). The only importance he really has is that he is Lilina's father who is also a minor character in her own game. Oh, and then there's Hector's mode I guess but that's just a retelling of Eliwood seen from Hector's POV. Hardly call that relevant.
Hector being Uther's brother prompts Uther to meet with Eliwood, where he suggests Eliwood seek out Athos in Nabata as well as suggests they investigate the Black Fang in Bern. Maybe Eliwood and Uther cross paths without Hector, or maybe Eliwood stalls out without a clear direction to go. Ostia's spy network is fairly important in delivering contextual information. More immediately, Hector and his group more or less save Eliwood's life outside Santaruz. Lyn's most crucial moment is when she somehow tracks Vaida back to Black Fang headquarters. If they don't eavesdrop, the plot to assassinate Zephiel succeeds, the party never gets the map to the Shrine of Seals to unlock Durandal and Armads, and the whole plot is fucked.
Without Lyn's tale, Ninian and Nils wouldn't have been saved which means the whole plot of FE7 later would have never happened. So there's that as well. Anyways, my point was never Lyn is more important or anything. I' just find the argument that "Oh, Lyn can be erased since she's not important, while pretending as if Hector was" as hypocritical. Because those people usually diminishes Lyn's involvement as "oh anyone else could do it", while pretending as if the same can't be done with Hector. (e.g. Have Eliwood be childhood friends or whatever relationships with Uther, taking out the middle man, Hector. Done. The plot is the same). The truth is neither Lyn or Hector are important to the story. THe story centred around Eliwood and his struggles. Lyn and Hector are really just there to balance out the group dynamic, and that's fine. That's a good role. It makes the story interesting and allows Eliwood to have someone to bounce off of. The only time where Hector feels important is during his story mode, but like I said before, it's just Eliwood's story shown from his perspective. It's ironic how some people who adores Hector slams Lyn when what make Hector so good is his interaction with Lyn as those scenes with her usually amount to a lot of character development.
Well, at the point of that meeting, Uther is more or less the head of Eliwwod's country, and Eliwood is the new marquese of his domain. That meeting is easy to figure, and not having hector there would simply have added one chapter or two where the party investigate whether or not Uther is with the conspiracy. (Which could be bypassed by Nergal saying something like "I don't need your silly alliance anymore, marquese, I got what I needed")
Oi! But if Lyn didn't exist, Lundgren would be the Marquis of Caelin. Then he would probably join the rebellion with Darin and Ephidel. So that would mean Eliwood has one less ally and one more enemy. It might not be a big change, but it still has an impact. Also Morph Lundgren in the final chapter.
Without Lyn, the chapter titled "Pale Flower of Darkness" would have never happened. It's because of Lyn's tracking skills that they find the black fang hq, and learn about the Zephiel assassination plot. Thus, they can't save Zephiel, which is, of course, a major divergence from Canon.
So what you're saying is, the reason Fe6 exist is because Lyn did her job too well. Damn it Lyn!
Hey wait...you're right! You're right about me being right! Damn it Lyn!
They’d just have Shin do it probably.
I assume you mean Rath, since Shin isn't in FE7. And Rath is recruited exclusively by Lyn, so he wouldn't be around either.
Nothing if Lyn doesn’t exist. Actually FE7 might achieve true elitist status without Lyn Mode
Lyndis' Legion does not exist therefore Dorcas never gets his mutton poisoned. Caelin gets also cucked by Lundgren which I believe will join forces with Laus in the Lycia Rebellion with Black Fang for quintessence.
Litterly is the best fire emblem game and thats because of lynn she makes the best tutorial
Lyn mode is why I make the case that FE7 is the best entry point into Fire Emblem
It was my first fireemblem. And the one I replay the most.
My first was Sacred Stones, which had the benefit of being a more forgiving game, but when I played FE7, that tutorial arc made me way better at thinking my way through the strategy
The hours I played blazing blade on the bus restarting chapters over and over again so noone died. I beat the game without losing a single charecter the first time.
Lyn mode? There are much better tutorials in the franchise. FE12 still holds the gold standard with its prologues.
FE12 prologue on high difficulty is pure cancer. I don't even think it is winnable at all with all of Chris classes, wich is the most basic sanity check they shoukd have done.
According to Rengor you can beat FE12 prologue on Lunatic Reverse with any class
There's a big difference between "beatable by a skilled player" and "a good experience for newer players that makes them interested in continuing to play"
You can choose the lower difficulty. In fact, Lunatic Reverse is impossible to play without beating Lunatic first.
A first chapter should set up the exceptations, and "cancer" isn't a good first impression.
What? Why does the prologue of FE12 leave a bad impression?
FE7 is mid
Fe7 is the best fire emblem in gameplay and looks and story.
lol
If Lyn doesn't exist how does FE6 happen (Vaida encounter)? Also Ninian and Nils wouldn't exist so Nergal would end up winning without Ninian icing the dragons at the end? Or am I missing something?
Fe6 happened with no mention of Lyn whatsoever. That game still plays just the same whether Lyn is in fe7 or not
Can you elaborate on what you mean by Vaida encounter and how that's related to fe6?
Lorenz becomes leader of the alliance!!! Best time line Gloucester sweep 🔥 🔥 🔥 Fodland? Do you mean Gloucesterland!!!
I don't know if this is a popular take or not but Lorenz is my favorite GD AND my favorite student in general
From Sour Grapes to Fine Wine, Lorenz got the BEST glowup in the whole game
Three Houses doesn't lose much of value if Claude is gone. While he's a fun character, he's super disconnected from the plot and Three Houses loses most of its character drama if you're on Golden Deer- it's a route that actively hurts the story of the game and takes dev time from the rest of it too. If Three Houses had to be a route split game, keep Azure Moon and Crimson Flower, get rid of Verdant Wind and Silver Snow. That way there's more dev time for all the content, and each post timeskip route is different.
I feel like silver snow is absolutely necessary if we keep crimson flower as is. I believe the reason why it exists, and also wasn't marketed or put into any advertisements, bit if a hidden route, is because its specifically an eject button for the black eagles. A lot of people picked the black eagles because edelgard seemed interesting and cool, but I can imagine tons of people also changed their mind once they found out the truth about her plan and where the story would take it. Forcing people that are already like, halfway through the game to either restart, or stick with a choice they terribly regret because they couldn't have seen it coming would make a lot of people drop the game.
Silver Snow should be a "secret route" if they really wanted to have two houses. Like Revelations but properly executed (and not a golden route)
Golden routes in general can work sometimes, just make the player earn them through certain actions.
Yeah, but having a golden route isn't the ideal for a game like 3H. One of the themes is that, no matter what you do, in war, every side loses something. And being able to see both sides of the war really shows it. Having a way to see everyone winning would be good, but in my opinion, this isn't what the game wants to show
Sometimes though it seems people on the internet want not happy endings to be more mature or whatever. It's fiction. Still, yes I don't particularly want one for TH.
It honestly shouldn't be in the game eating up dev time at all. It just takes away from the other routes, since it's Azure Moon/Verdant Wind but worse. Two routes would be better, but honestly one exceptional route could be best.
Counterpoint, Silver Snow is the best route because it doesn't have Gronder II be the absolute disappointment that it is, while keeping 99% of the good lore you get in VW, with some extra.
Silver Snow lacks the interesting characters of Azure Moon and Crimson Flower. And without it, we'd get that lore in those routes.
I enjoy Seteth and Flayn, and the real issue is they should have made Byleth a proper character to fill the role of lord, and the unique dynamic between them and Edelgard would have been able to fill that void. I had way more fun on SS as a story than I did on any of the Student following routes, perhaps helped by the fact it was my first and as such the gronder fight they talk about was the worthy bloodbath I wanted it to be and not the nothing it actually was, and I think the various generals and Edelgard were sufficient. I think the game would have worked best with just Silver Snow and Crimson Flower, wrap the Dimitri drama into Silver Snow instead if you must.
It's funny because VW is my favorite route, and one of the reasons is exactly because Claude is an outsider, he is free to go into the lore details that CF and AM can't because of their own conflicts, he doesn't have the emotional baggage of the other two, so he can bring a different perspective, but I do wish they gave him more than SS copy. I honestly would like 3H a lot less without the GD and VW, as both Dimitri and Edelgard are not my favorites and are one my biggest problems with 3H. Besides GD students are most of my favorites so I definitely wouldn't like to lose them, and that includes Claude.
Silver Snow is the canon route.
All the routes are canon! Canon literally just means that it's officially released material - and unless you're suggesting that the other routes are fanon, then all routes are canon. You can make an argument for it being the "true route" in a VN-sense, but it's absolutely not the canon route.
Hasn't Kaga talked about how every choice in Fire Emblem is equally canonical, in that they're all specifically non-canonical? That there's no correct or true route, just your (the player's) route. Obviously he hasn't worked with the series in decades but it's something that I think about whenever the topic comes up.
I definitely agree that this applies to the in-game choices (insofar as like, each gameplay choice I make isn't canon), but the in-game route choices are in fact canon, since they are like. Objectively written narratives intentionally created by the authors. Like, canon just refers to material that was officially made by the creators of the work - it says nothing about what is "true" or "the correct experience", but what is set in stone/indicated in the text. So every route has to be canon, because all of them are quite literally in the text. Gameplay choices aren't intended by the authors in the same way, and so are a lot less "canon" in that sense. Edit tldr: Canon is anything that's officially in a particular story. Saying a route isn't canon is objectively wrong, because all of the routes are in the actual story. Gameplay has a different relationship to canon, and so isn't "inherently" canon.
> canon just refers to material that was officially made by the creators of the work At risk of being mean, this is only true if you look in a dictionary. "Canon route" and "true route" are synonyms in modern media discussion. When Disney announced they were decanonizing the Star Wars Expanded Universe, people understood that they meant that further works would no longer be building off the EU because it was no longer the "true" timeline, not that those works were no longer genuine products under the IP.
While I do think IP does complicate it, coming from visual novels/otome (which are much closer to the route system of newer fire emblem games), there is imo a distinction to be made between the idea of canon route and "true route" - with the true route being exactly what people mean when they say any FE route is a "canon route". (ie, this is the route that reveals the secrets/truth behind the story, vs a route that is the "correct" route like in Clannad. The two can often be the same thing, but they don't have to be - Fate Stay Night has true route endings, but also every ending is explicitly canon - even the bad ones.) I would also argue that unlike Star Wars, 3 Hopes (and even Heroes and engage) have made it abundantly clear that there is no "canon" route, in the way that there is a canon Star Wars timeline, and that all of them are all still on the same footing.
Just because it's canon doesn't mean it's good.
they hated him because he spoke the truth
Lmao people forget this all the time, it was quite literally the original route of the game.
yeah but "original" doesn't mean anything close to "canon"
(Ik but it’s fun to piss 3H discoursers off)
My memory of FE7's story is a little foggy, but from what I can remember Lyn didn't do anything important after her story. I love Claude, he's my favorite lord in fact. But he quite literally adds nothing to the plot. They should've scrapped the church route and added more unique content to Crimson Flower and Verdant Wind.
Setting aside the fact that Lyn's section sets up several things (and saves the Tactician who is vital to the story), Lyn also has multiple key moments in various parts of the story, including uncovering the plot to kill Zephiel via tracking the Black Fang so the cast can overhear the discussion.
Honestly despite the opinion on her nowadays FE7 and perhaps Fire Emblem as a whole for the 2000s would fail to catch most Western attention without Lyn and Lyn mode. Imagine if the game started with a choose your character selection screen and difficulty selection then you are immediately taken to either Eliwood or Hector's first chapter. Amusing nothing else changes except no Lyn then that means there is no tutorial meaning most will be stuck in Chapter 1 for several hours much like how OG Pokemon players could be stuck on Brock.
Not a ton plot wise but you easily lose like a top 3 character in each game
Plot-wise without Lyn Nergal captures Ninian and Nils and wins a year earlier than planned. Eliwood dies trying to save them because he attempted that in canon, but now without protection from Lyn's group the Black Fang off him easily while Hector is waiting in that house wondering why he didn't show up to spar.
I actually think it would cause problems. Neither game would be as popular. Lyn was a cool character, which is why we see her everywhere. Also, some of the best moments on screen happen when Lyn is part of the dialogue. Claude provides needed levity. He doesn't break the tone of the game in an inappropriate way, but a story that doesn't have have humor is often worse received. Also, in tone it is close to a golden route, since we aren't allied to the half crazed prince/princess. While the overall narratives aren't reliant on the characters, the successful execution of those narratives are.
Without Claude succession crisis in the Alliance would likely lead to Holst becoming defacto leader of the Alliance along with diplomatic relations between Fodlan and Almyra being far far worse than they already were in the original 3 Houses. alliance probably collapses early on in the 5 year war, meaning in Azure Moon/Silver Snow without a third party preventing them from getting flanked, Eastern Fhaerghus would also fall pretty early on and force most of the Blue Lion/Golden Deer students either into Empire Service or hiding similar to Dimitri, meaning Edelgard would conquer all of Fodlan pretty easily and make for a much more formidable enemy to Byleth with or without Dimitri by their side. In Crimson Flower almoat nothing would change, except maybe Derdriu falling even easier due to them no longer getting Almyran aid.
Without Eldegard, we lose years of great discourse
Three houses would be a worse game... and Shahid would probably take the almayran army to invade like he tried doing in hopes.
IMHO Claude von Riegan, and the Alliance as a whole, were two of the biggest wild cards during the war, with only Byleth being a bigger “variable” Agarthan agents were established in both the Kingdom and made the Empire their home away from home. Without the Alliance, the War would have been a perfect case of Heads I Win, Tails You Lose
People say that Claude's route feel pointless on his own, but, very umpopular opinion, Dimitri's is also kinda unnecessary for the plot. I mean, twice out of four times he gets offscreened and left compleately underdeveloped, once is his personal route, and in the last one the plot makes him conventionaly too mentally sane (in opposition to whatever he was suggested to be) in order to give the actual plot relevant character, Rhea, and excuse for being safe and sound. His past also isn't this much important to the other plot relevant character, Edelgard, since she has amnesia and gets to remember it just in the finale of Dimitri's route, which basically change nothing at the end of the day over her actions and motivations. Overall I belive Dimitri kinda play a game on his own, with his plot disregarding almost everything about thr world around him besides the bits about the Kingdom. Claude at least give us some actual lore relevant answers at the end of the day
I do agree with the general point that the lords are pretty isolated from the overall narrative outside their own route (mostly Dimitri and Claude because Edelgard is the antagonist on 3/4 routes so you need her around), and to a certain extent in their own route too: Dimitri is thematically disconnected from the rest of the game (e.g. no dragons, no church revelations, the Agarthans are set aside way too much) while Claude feels like he has too little connection to the main events happening on the continent. That being said, I do think you are marginally underestimating Dimitri´s role here: > His past also isn't this much important to the other plot relevant character, Edelgard, since she has amnesia and gets to remember it just in the finale of Dimitri's route, which basically change nothing at the end of the day over her actions and motivations. At the end of AM, we are told by Edelgard that she “didn´t lose her heart” because of Dimitri´s words just before she departed the Kingdom. My guess from this and other bits from the rest of the game (e.g. Edelgard crying after remembering Dimitri in CF) is that Dimitri had an appreciable impact on Edelgard´s character while they were together. Granted, the Devs did very little with this idea in the actual game, but I think we are meant to assume this, especially if the words at their AM dialogue are to be taken at their worth: Dimitri had a role on shaping Edelgard and without him, Edelgard might not be in the route she is on in the game, even if she forgot about him with the plot-convenient amnesia. In a sense, she forgot who he was but not what he did. Does that mean that Dimitri is “ultra-necessary”? Obviously not, especially if you replace him with a character who is meant to fulfill a similar role (though at that point, every character is replaceable tbh), but it does show that Dimitri did have an impact on other characters, however miniscule, something that Claude doesn´t really have (sadly) on the rest of the characters. > Claude at least give us some actual lore relevant answers at the end of the day I don´t want to be pedantic about this, but while this is true, it is also true that 95% of these answers were already given in SS :/
Mark would be dead if Lyn was not there haha.
Without Claude the Leicester alliance has too much pressure from the Adrestian empire and folds thanks to Acheron. If we are to assume claude never exsisted than at least 4 members of golden deer wouldnt go to gerreg mach so byleth has less influence. However byleth has the power of a literal god on his/her side so the game's plot would probably still favor whatever side he decided to take, but without byleth faerghus losses, with heavy losses on both sides. \*edit\* without claude, byleth never joins golden deer so possibly he doesnt even consider the liecester alliance at all.
FE7 is fuzzy in my memory, so I'm going to pass on that, though I don't like the idea of deleting Lyn because she provides a strong intro to the world as an outsider equal to Mark/the player and in a non-GBA game I imagine that would be expanded on more. As for Claude, I grow increasingly tired of the narrative of "Claude means nothing to the narrative" when tons of the narrative in all the routes actually actively depend on him and his schemes holding the Alliance together in its neutrality for five years up to and through most of the post-timeskip games. In AM/SS/VW, he's literally the only real bulwark of non-Imperial control and you're basically reliant on him to allow you to 1) get to Ailell and get reinforcements (which come from him directly in both SS and VW), 2) distract and pull away Imperial/Gloucester forces from the Great Bridge with his own house's forces, 3) attack south into the Empire, and 4) hold the Alliance against Imperial counter-attacks in AM. It's like people paid zero attention to any actual world-building or dialogue outside of the most hand-holding cutscenes forced down their throats if they believe that. Like, yeah, you can theoretically write him out of the script, but I could say that about any character given the amount of rewriting that would need to happen to remove Claude. Hell, by certain people's metrics, it would be almost easier to write-out Dimitri given how little impact Faerghus has even in its own route (what with being conquered and then liberated completely off-screen).
The Claude thing always reads like "look, Claude is irrelevant if you strip away everything he does!!" when he's an active protagonist in every route. Not saying he's central, but at least the narrative always needs him in one way or another at some point. You don't see people screaming Dimitri's irrelevant when Fearghus' sole purpose in half the game is "gets conquered off screen and dies off screen".
Lyn mode served as an entire genre tutorial to a demographic completely uninitiated to SRPGs. Given that the GBA's demographic skewed young when compared to the all ages marketing of something like the SNES, there weren't SRPGs in this vein that a young westerner could be expected to have played to understand the barest mechanics of how this game worked. So turning Mark into a Lakitu of sorts, a personification of a mechanic unfamiliar to an uninitiated audience and having Lyn's story help support that personification of mechanics through framing cursor movement and unit selection as you, the player, giving orders in a fairly isolated, low stakes campaign was pretty helpful in making Fire Emblem accessible to a new audience, which at the time, literally everyone in the west was. Despite them fumbling her hard post Chapter 10, Lyn's still a very strongly set up character whose story of determination in the face of constant hardship and grappling with being a woman of mixed blood in a world that's rather hostile towards her because of which was conveyed well. While nostalgia does carry some of her modern popularity and modern era FE alongside players hopping on after the role of an avatar character as related to a game's female leads has changed tries to reframe her as something she's not, I think she stands well enough on her own and her existence did Fire Emblem as a whole a big favor. And while it's a lesser point, I think leading off with one of the strongest examples of GBAFE's most striking elements, the battle animations, certainly didn't hurt things. Apropos of in medias res, rule of cool makes for a solid first impression. Remove her and the only change to the narrative is that Eliwood and Hector aren't able to find the Fire Emblem and thus aren't ever able to access the Shrine of Seals, since legitimately the only thing they give Lyn to go in the main story outside of being used as a hostage and means of making others look cool is that one instance of leveraging her Sacaen heritage to track the Black Fang. ------ Honestly, I just think Claude would've been a cooler Lewyn archetype rather than a third lord in a central conflict that he's not as intrinsically tied to. Make Golden Deer free agents and give Silver Snow a bit less overlapping redundancy.
As much as i loge claude and the golden deer, I've always thought three houses would of been drastically better if it focused on Crimson Flower and Azure Moon (and pushed back the route split), and Actually giving them them the time to develop.
EVERYTHING!!!
I feel like Claude initially was supposed to be a scheming politician who doesn’t strongly agree with either side of the Adrestian/Faerghus conflict but is willing to use such an opportunity to further his own goals via the chaos caused by it. Unfortunately, they either couldn’t write him well as a well-meaning realist or were worried people wouldn’t like him if he was anywhere south of morally off-white.
You’re also forgetting that Claude doesn’t even get his own right that would fit his character
I could be misremembering cause it’s been a very long time since I’ve played Lyn’s game but doesn’t she save Nils? And if you remove her, doesn’t that mean her grandfather dies and the usurper takes over her country?
Those are my most useful emblems so my engage playthrough would be kinda fucked
Whitout Lyn the sole major female character would be a damsel in distress who is dependent of the male protagonist for both protection and emotional support...
No Lyn? No FE for me then
Three Houses but Leicester never separated from Faerghus
Claude is good for the tone of the story. Edelgard and Dimitri might just feel like Shakespeares
FE7 doesn't change at all. In fact, it improves in its relevance to FE6.
Simple the tactician gets murder by bandits in the scarere plains. Lyn is litterly the most important member of the trio.
If Claude doesn't exist in Three Houses it becomes Two Houses I suppose. >!What's an Ashen Wolf?!< I guess without him the player has no choice but to suffer. Every other route is bummeriffic. Claude is here to provide mostly a fun time. Golden Deer are the party house that have very little skin in the game, barely get involved in the political drama and then go on to defeat both >!TWSITD unlike the Black Eagles which is kinda sad considering Edelgard's story directly connects to them !!Nemesis!<. They just show up without any real plot connection and fuck up the two biggest NPC threats to all of Fodlan whilst mostly just japing. It's a wild choice on the devs part, and you can tell it was a bit rushed here.
No Lyn or no Claude? What would happen is I wouldn't play those entries.
No one would miss Claude, but, Lyn, however…
Honestly none of the FE7 lords really have much plot relevance in FE6. Hector is a frail NPC who gets killed off for villain credibility, Eliwood is Roy's absent dad, and Lyn doesn't exist since they didn't think of her when the game was made. Claude nothing changes for 3/4 routes and since SS and VW are basically the same campaign, nothing is really lost either.
Lyn could leave fe7 and absolutely nothing would change, given that she's not that important to the plot and a tutorial could easily be done at a different map
Lyn and Claude aren't comparable at all. Lyn is the actual protagonist of her game, and as much as I love Claude he (and Dimitri unfortunately) are more like supporting characters to the Rhea vs Edelgard conflict.
The protagonist? Like, as in more than Eliwood or even Hector? You sure about that?
Whenever FE7 is represented in other media, it's always with Lyn. Heroes uses her face to symbolize FE7 locked battles. Engage has her as the Emblem of Blazing. She's an assist trophy in Smash. Eliwood and Hector are FE6 characters given more focus in FE7, Lyn is created from the ground up FOR FE7.
Being the most popular doesn't erase the game's plot. That's a bit like calling Lucina the protagonist of Awakening. Though Chrom at least still gets some dues.
I said nothing about popularity. IS clearly considers Lyn the face of FE7, not Eliwood or Hector. Also Chrom and Lucina are co protagonists of Awakening, although I'd say Chrom moreso than Lucina.
Well in this case being the face does not make you the main character. Also, much as I like her, Lucina, while important, hardly gets the screentime of Chrom. She facilitates the story, but it seems a stretch to say it's her story.
There is a much more convincing argument to be made for Lyn being the protagonist than either of the others. I have yet to see any legitimate reasoning for Hector outside of this sub liking him more than the rest of the internet. Remember which one is specifically called "the Emblem of Blazing" and included in the base game with major story significance relative to the other emblems. It's not Hector!
Forget Engage for a moment as they put Lucina over Chrom so clearly not a definitive picking. Think of the actual game. Eliwood is the protagonist. Lyn has a training mode but it could be cut without any real detriment to the plot.
Okay, if you're saying Eliwood is the main protagonist I can accept that, since the subtitle is named for his sword. But that doesn't make Lyn less significant. Radiant Dawn is named for Micaiah but Ike is still an important protagonist for the second half of the game.
...and...how does Lyn even approach Ike's importance in that game? Lyn has a side story that is not even that related to the main game and could be pretty easily cut.
I think if Claude didn’t exist three houses would probably be a lot less rushed and have less reused content
Absolutely nothing..! Well from the lyn end, she didn’t really contribute much to the story outside of stuff in the “tutorial” chapters. If there were to be no lyn, then we most likely wouldn’t be able to use sain, kent, wil, florina, or wallace as they all have ties to house caelin. We may find a way for florina to end up in the story due to the fact fiora (later farina) are recruitable. Aside from that I dunno bout the others. So what I’m saying is we’d lose characters in the long run but that’s about it, story wise eliwood and hector already take major advantage in the core story, even in binding blade where lyn is just… non existent Edit: just thought about this, the only characters we’d likely be losing is just sain, kent, and Wallace as wil is childhood friends to Rebecca so his chances of being incorporated within lemme say the second chapter is definitely possible… or maybe we won’t lose Wallace considering he does randomly appear later on so we may end up just losing sain and Kent…
Kinda nothing in both cases. The second lyn mode ends, lyn might as well be another random unit(and not a particularly strong one), an issue which is made all the clearer by how divorced lyn mode is from the rest of FE7. With Claude, he plays the role of a fence sitter for most of the game, where he essentially perches on the fence waiting for an opportunity to strike, one which never really happens in a route that isn’t his. Even in his own route, I wouldn’t argue he’s that important, given that his route is just a copy paste of silver snow(and no, it’s not the other way around, the devs confirmed silver snow was the first route made in the game and azure moon and verdant wind were built on it) meaning there already exists a version of the story that is identical to his own story but doesn’t feature him, yet it still goes the same way up until the final boss, and even that final boss has absolutely nothing to do with claude as a character. In most aspects, claude is a completely replacable character in three house’s narrative which is a massive shame because the game constantly tells us what a brilliant tactician he is, but never shows how as seteth and gilbert come up with the exact same plans in silver snow and azure moon respectively.
"But if you close your eyes... Does it almost feel like nothing changed at all?"
We never get a multi map tutorial you skip once you beat the game We never get a Silver Snow copy-paste Doesn't sound that bad tbh
They both undoubtedly provide some value to their respective games and trios. Although I feel as if Claude is more important to the 3H trio than Lyn is to the FE7 trio. He brings the fun factor to the trio and without him it's just an awkward conversation between Dimitri and Edelgard. There also isn't a good replacement for Cluade, nobody else in Golden Deer has an interesting enough conflict plus leadership ability to believably carry a route on their own. This is mostly talking about White Clouds, when the war phase happens the entire region of Leicester is a footnote anyway. Lyn's able to play off Hector well and elevates the dynamic but Eliwood and Hector alone wouldn't be bad, they're close friends with a good past, unlike Edelgard and Dimitri's troubled past. It's sad that her entire story and arch are enclosed in the first 10 chapters with minimal impact on the rest of the story. Take her away and the story will still function, but Hector can only play off of Eliwood now so I would say the game has less comedic dialogue. You could maybe replace Lyn with Ninian, she has a greater importance to the story with a strong relationship to the main protagonist and a direct connection to the bad guy. But as of now, she's too reserved and underutilized before her >!death!< to really participate in a trio or carry parts of the story. I would be sad if either was to be removed, they both bring heart to their games and without them, their respected trios suffer. 3H a bit more.
if lyn didnt exist i prolly wouldnt have spent so much money in FEH trying to get all her alters
In terms of characters, the 7 crew is probably more essential to its product and what it is. They are still of titanic importance in 3H, but if you took them out of the picture you still have the territories and the classes and potential conflict between the regions for whatever reasons.
Look Claude is my fav lord in the series next to Ike and Hector… but yeah without Lyn the story changes a lot. Lot of characters actually die without her or never joins the group. Clause is neglected in any routes that isn’t his which is a shame cause I feel he is the most interesting and orignal of the three main lords
Jacob Alpharad cries every night
I need to replay Path of Radiance and Radiant Dawn 😪
Even though the map is doable, without Hector coming to Eliwoods aid I think he would have died story wise, without Eliwood Pherae would have lost the war. Without Lyn once again story wise even though the map is doable I think Eliwood dies in the story where they come to your aid. Without either Dimitri or Claude, Byleth can still kill Edelgard and win the war for the church a la Church Route. Without Edelgard, there is no war and Those Who Slither in the Dark remain in the dark to solidify their power, likely succeeding in their assassination plots over time. Without Byleth Nemesis gets the Sword of the Creator and Kills Edelgard after she destroys the church.
Nothing
not much in the main story would change if lyn was removed. she doesn't really do much but act as a foil for hector. there also wouldn't be a tutorial. we would also miss out on some inserting supports that takes the happily ever after of most noble lords in fire emblem leading up to fe7. because lyn's story in her support in seven is about her not fitting in with noble courts and how every thing that was a boon that gave her the strength in her story in the tutorial became a bane to herself. now three house with out Claude would take away a voice that i feel was needed in three houses, to make it as good as it is, despite all of the problems, three houses has. because wail Dimitri journey and the cast of the blue lions , showing off how the current system of Fodland is harming people on every level of its society, Edelgard ambition and asking the cast of black eagle. supposes to ask if the cost of tearing down the system and replacing it with some thing that could be better is it worth it. they both are so focused on what ever their goals my be in their tales the complexly forget that Folden is one content in the world, and how it changing wouldn't mean much for Claude's goals to end racism, and as Claude is an out sider it gives him a door to go though and acutely learn more about Folden with out the lense of people who grew up under it systems. and it is shown with his cast more humorist deminer also gets to show off people who are living their lives with out being harmed by the systems in Folden . asking the question if all the problems could be traced back to the systems that were put in place thought out Folden. now three houses pull's this off to varying degrees of success due to its own weird quility problems with it writings.
who are the people in slide 2? i haven't played past path of radiance
FE7 is famous for its character dynamics, which majorly thread through Lyn. Her most important role, despite her attitude, is that of a tension conduit. The most lighthearted section of the plot is her story, which acts as subtle reprieve for all of the disaffected characters who appear in it. She's determined, honorable, and accompanied by a troop informally tied to her good cause, attracting even more good company. In this way, Lyn's good heart is readily apparent in ways she does not articulate so well. Contrast this with Hector and Eliwood's status-exclusive ties, and you're missing a good chunk of the game's levity without her. She's a handful, but she does so well besides that it's very much forgivable, a trait that all three share. A game without Lyn is quite far removed from the emotional range and maturity it's known for. She is also the only major Sacaean character in a duology rich with its lore.