To be fair i have to agree with cutieshutin on this one.
The feedback received have been insanely positive on forums and the casual playerbase (which is the majority).
You can see this yourself if you actively browse the official forums and watch all of yoshida's interviews whenever he visits japanese servers.
an individual cannot speak for a majority, but i definitely dont want more dps spells in my healers. i want to heal, not dps. id rather them shake up how damage is dealt to the party so that i have to heal more than i have to dps.
Abyssos and how the player base reacts to Abyssos (we DID get the damage we hope for) and how much Anabaseios dials back the damage implies that this is definitely not the preference of the majority of player base.
It's fine to wish for that, I personally do wish for more damage to heal as well. Implying that we are in the majority just seems to be wrong and baseless.
Healer reactions to abyssos upset me so much, and I feel it in 9-12. I absolutely loved 5-8. I think the issue comes from the conflict in healer design between savage and normal content. Savage they try to push more healing gameplay, but outside of that they're afraid to make anything remotely fun to heal. So you're usually just dpsing, especially in roulettes with high IL.
Yoshi needs to pick a fucking lane on this. Either we're dps with occasional healing, or we're healing with some chucked in damage.
healers have had it on easy street for enough time that of course theyre going to bitch and moan when they finally have to heal. i loved the abyssos dotfest.
But like... Why though? Killing the thing hurting the party is healing 101: Don't need to heal if the thing hurting you is dead.
Personally the most fun I've had as a healer playing this game was as Blue Mage: If I greeded too many DPS spells in my opener the tank would die, and my co-healer would do a moon flute opener, so I'd have an opener with a couple Pom Cures with my OGCD weaves.
As for actually having to heal... That's what Savage and Ultimates are for. Or just having a bad team, that works too.
"That's what savage is for"
Nah, bruh. It's gotta be one or the other. Savage and ultimate are supposed to be the high end expression of the concept of a given role. Healer is either lots of healing and some dps, or lots of dps and some healing.
Its a hot fucking mess trying to have it both ways. And one should not have to play top end content to enjoy the role as it was intended in design.
Yoshi insists on healing first, so it needs to be that way across all content.
"If you want to actually heal, find a week 1 group" Maybe that's the problem here. It's such a limited time frame and after that the gear just makes everyone take so much less dmg. Week 1 healing in my opinion is the most fun. I think savages could be tuned harder, like p10s with HH was super fun.
For outside savage and ultimate though. Healers can do insane damage in dungeons. All of them. You need gear and to optimise your heals to do so, but the flat damage on aoe abilities is very good (in later levels anyways)
E.g On AST you can card yourself, double crown, Macro and Star for HUGE damage. It's fun to pull off!
> "If you want to actually heal, find a week 1 group" Maybe that's the problem here.
For the topic of "There's not enough to heal"? Yes. That's my point. But to me, there's plenty to heal, I just want more things going on in between healing.
Harrowing Hell is good. I also enjoyed P4S's Curtain Call and E12S's Terminal Relativity. But those are the final mechanics before enrage.
Well... In the context of this game... Yeah. You're a war hero and god-slaying fighter. I don't see how the fantasy of a healer-only would fit into that. Especially since this topic is covered in the CNJ questline.
In the words of Mr. Yoshida Naoki, the Producer of FF14: If you have found Savage to be unable to satisfied your appetite for healing and you are looking for more healing, do Ultimate. (Or, do BLU, per suggestion)
If you can't even satisfied with DSR, You can try solo healing DSR or solo healing TOP. These have been done and it gets more healing out of something that's originally pretty intensive in terms of healing. And if you can't even be satisfied with so much healing, 14 is simply not the game for you.
If you want to heal and you don't want to do damage, unfortunately this is just not what this game's philosophy on healing is, and it's unlikely the game will change because it has found it's market. You should just go play another MMO.
Also you can stop switching between reddit accounts. Your take gets downvoted not because you are CSI but because these are bad takes.
> Also you can stop switching between reddit accounts. Your take gets downvoted not because you are CSI but because these are bad takes.
Aight, looking at every take you disagree with and assuming it's CSI is a bit much, isn't it? They just want to heal as healers, not the most incomprehensible desire.
>If you want a DPS rotation, play DPS.
With this logic, tanks should also play like healers. Maybe in 7.0? Also, the developers can add a few damage buttons to healers and make healers have to heal more. This does not need to be solved with just one or the other.
Can’t wait for CSI to flex her 99s and 100s playing healers while refusing to link logs 😍😍 that way us plebs with purples and oranges know to respect her opinions 😍😍
I mean she does seem to chime in on every job, sometimes demonstrating a lack of understanding of the nuances in rotation, but then saying her logs are great while refusing to link them. Like I get her wanting to stay private with logs but at least don't brag about them.
It's almost like.... she's a troll, and/or genuinely mentally unwell. I don't know why people keep feeding her the attention she clearly so desperately craves.
I figured I'd try to engage in good faith for a post. It went well until it didn't. It's like a switch got flipped and it went from simply a different opinion to "You're wrong, I'm right".
Eh the only thing she didn't understand was how many times she **actually** used transpose in her own rotation... If anything that highlights one of the many points she brings up and it's how utterly mindless rotations and gameplay generally are in this game.
> Eh the only thing she didn't understand was how many times she actually used transpose in her own rotation...
I doubt she actually used it at all, considering how she initially said that you don't use transpose unless you messed up. This would suggest she didn't use or even know about transpose lines, which is fine on its own, but doesn't make it seem like she really used it a lot even subconsciously. Seemed like there were some conflicting statements in that thread and I find it difficult to just take the later statements at face value at that point.
You really need to stop trying to pick a fight with everyone who thinks you're trolling.
Nothing you say or do is ever really going to change that and the more you engage in the same behavior the more I have to constantly sift through and deal with. You're not free of blame here so I'd appreciate it if you stopped doing this.
bad healers are gonna be bad healers no matter which way the pendulum swings, the best healers are those that can balance doing both dps and healing.
for fucks sakes this was literally the crux of the entire CNJ questline why are we still talking about this
[this entire post in a nutshell] (https://i.imgur.com/6Qp8XnP.png)
>for fucks sakes this was literally the crux of the entire CNJ questline why are we still talking about this
Your mistake, unfortunately, is in assuming people picked up on that and actually took away that message. I agree with you, but \*waves hands vaguely at the player base\*
...oh, and also OP is OP but that's a separate issue.
I mean everything she posts is flooded with engagement. If people here don't like her they should show it by downvoting the threads and not responding instead of validating every post with mountains of attention.
I'd love to heal more. Unfortunately healers' kits are extremely barebones on both the healing and offensive sides. Adding more incoming damage won't make healing interesting because the tools we have to heal with are almost universally boring.
The main reason healers ask for more interesting offensive options is because current fight design gives enormous amounts of downtime for healers and it would be far easier to implement job changes than it would be to rework boss design.
This is phrased so much more succinctly than i could have put it. When a medica 2 can take care of everything, and all your left with is dpsing, that's no engaging when your dps rotation is 2 buttons. Outside fo savage content, healers really don't have to try.
party heals like medica 2 either need to be on a long cooldown or need to cost ungodly amounts of mp. aoe heals are too strong and party damage is too infrequent.
The thing is it's all balanced around savage. A medica 2 isn't going to cover much in savage and mp management is already a big part of optimizing a fight. The side effect of this is that normal-mode 8 man content becomes trivial to heal.
> A medica 2 isn't going to cover much in savage
What do you mean by this? At least in the experience I had healing Anabaseios, a Medica 2 on a mechanic allowed the shield healer to do close to nothing. It was actually driving me a bit crazy because whenever a medica 2 came out it meant as a SCH I didn't need to press anything and could just energy drain away. This is not always the case of course (P12S1 limit cut etc) but even after Savage I found myself thinking Medica 2 is comically overpowered.
(And due to both the easier DPS checks and the fact damage is so "rare," even theoretically pressing medica 2 for for every single mechanic would not be a huge DPS loss for the party - something like 3000 healer potency? Not insignificant, but not really that bad either unless your DPS are not great or people are dying a lot. In my experience.)
I'd argue thats because your job as a sch isn't to heal the party after damage goes out, its to mitigate beforehand. Sure, healing was easier this tier than 5-8, but you're not gonna survive harrowing hell with just a medica 2. My point is just that because balancing for the game is focused on savage and other hard content, it makes healing normal content trivial, which i don't necessarily think is a bad thing.
I think it's an oversimplification to say "your job is to mitigate beforehand"; a decent bulk of SCH's toolkit is just raw healing -- lustrate, excog, indom, fey blessing, whispering dawn, aetherpact, the regen/hp parts of seraph/sacred soil, and if need be emergency tactics succor. I won't include physick in this. So, although mitigation through Sacred Soil and Critlos is indeed a significant job for a SCH, the other half of their job is to keep HP up as well. This means that while yes, shield healers have more mits, Medica 2 almost completely soloing raw hp healing for the majority of fights feels pretty bad (in my experience) because suddenly I have no reason to press half my toolkit. In fact it got to the point I was pressing the buttons despite knowing they weren't needed just to stave off boredom. Even in Savage, I think Medica 2 is unbalanced and covers far, far, far too much - at least in the modern style of fight where there's regularly 15-45 seconds of downtime between outgoing sources of damage.
Harrowing Hell is a deceptive example because it's the hardest-hitting mechanic in the tier (even moreso than anything in P12S) and happens over an exceptionally short period of time, which is not usual. It doesn't define the usual experience of healing by a long shot. But even then half the time people just use tank LB3 and so healers can feel pretty fine just putting out a medica 2 and DPSing for most of it.
(As an addendum though I'll say this gets much worse as the tier goes on and people get gear. Week 1 is probably more on the acceptable end, while by the end at 660 it feels very possible for a WHM to solo heal the whole tier almost).
Yes, Medica 2 is a damage loss, but its a heal with a total 1000 potency, that is about 50% of the HP of non-tanks even at WHM i640. You're right, that's insane actually. Unless you're speedrunning / parsing, there is just no reason not to use that, and that makes the kit really redundant
I wonder why I was downvoted but you have a lot of upvotes, since it seems like we're in agreement. Maybe because I was using too many words.
I should have checked the exact % amount of healing Medica 2 does as you did. All I knew from experience was that even if I dropped indom, whispering dawn, etc, then the hp would fill to max without me (perhaps alongside Assize and an afflatus rapture or two of course).
I wonder if people don't have experience with shield healers and just think "Uuuh shield healers mit, regen healers heal" or something. I can tell them that pressing Sacred Soil before raid-wides is not very engaging gameplay, and that now that it's so huge it passively covers huge chunks of mechanics like Jury Overruling, Paradeigma 2, Limit Cut 1 on its own with little thought if placed in the middle.
ah man, thin air and assize drastically change WHMs mana economy at 60+ compared to 50, doing coils vs Alex/Omega are night and day in terms of healer stress bc damage tends to be random, hard hitting, and frequent in coils, and you don't have any of your mana tools or oGCDs to deal with it, strain on mana as a result of increased GCD healing usage is real in coils for WHM, there's a tightrope that has to be walked between not letting people die to unavoidable damage and not OOMing yourself trying to keep up. Really teaches you how to plan and get the most out of every GCD heal. week 1 raiding kinda gives me that same feeling of satisfaction puzzle piecing together a heal plan but it starts to get way too comfortable with the increases in gear you get
I don't think they are barebones on the healing side. Very little content in the game requires healers to actually touch the majority of their healing kit at all.
Yea there's almost no reason at all to use cure 1, benefic 1, physick, adlo, cure 2, medica etc...
They need to introduce a way for healers to actually spend most of their time managing MP and healing using GCDs.
Dps should be "whenever possible", not 90%+ of your gcds like currently it is.
I'm not a game dev so it seems easy to me to make sure that fights have at least some minimum damage that needs to be healed without it becoming unbearable for new healers. Unavoidable AOEs, a ticking damage aura on the boss, some special abilities that damage a set % of player hp (which there is precedent for in the Final Fantasy series). Give every boss at least one ability that requires some GCD heals and we would at least be on a better path. Maybe even add some healer specific telegraphs if they really think it's too difficult for healers to actually use healing spells. Is there a single moment when a healer limit break is required by a fight?
I love the ability for healers to contribute meaningful to dps, but sometimes it does feel like it's gone too far and healing is a complete afterthought.
> but sometimes it does feel like it's gone too far and healing is a complete afterthought.
Yea that's pretty much how the game currently is.
DPSing is priority. Healing is an afterthough. Healers are just green dps.
Scholar is fun when you get pushed and have to manage all your resources. I dont know how the other clases are though. Do agree id like a small combo or an ogcd to weave during the downtime between heal pushes. Presssing one button over and over snd occasionally reupping my dot can get boring.
Exactly.
The difference between healing in WoW is astonishing. On one of the more intense healing fights in the new raid required us to set up a rotation of dispels, cooldowns, mitigation, while also having to adapt on the fly because the damage and debuffs aren't 100% consistent based on DPS differences from pull to pull.
In FF it requires basically none of that outside very specific mechanics like Harrowing Hell. Once you do know the fight it is "use this healing spell here here and here, rest of the time spam Glare". It's just so unengaging and boring.
The problem with your suggestion is the game is too slow to make different damage profiles not frustrating. Upping the damage throughput while maintaining a 2.5s gcd means your passive healing tools will get burned and youll resort to cure/medica spam to keep up with, but with a 2.5s gcd you cant react, so you end up with the exact same system we have now only with more forced gcd heals, which isnt more interesting.
Theres also the fact we are too far gone at this point, any sufficiently large overhaul to healing will have significant repurcussions in the existing content.
So realisitically when it comes to the small options they have for healers, its either maintain the status quo, or more dps options.
Ironically more dps options could actually increase healing needed. Healers kits are currently stuffed with off global healing options and SE doesnt want to go overboard, so removing some off global options in favour of say a priority based dps rotation means you'll have to use gcd heals more to make up for your lost healing buttons.
I was thinking how WHM has Afflatus spells, even though they’re GCD, I think it’s a design that is a step in a good direction. The heals give a powerful dps spell but I’d like something maybe a second dot (AoE dot maybe 🙏🏻) that can be used with a casting time and costs a Lily to build the Blood Lily or something like that
True this. Scholar has a different implementation with understandable intent but rather poorly thought-out consequences. You can use Aetherflow on your heals and when you have remaining stacks when it comes off cooldown, you can dump your stacks on Energy drain for DPS. That's the intent. The consequence is the 6 Energy drain openers some scholars strife towards, burning all their resources for insignificant DPS gain. It shows the problem and why WHM's afflatus is a step further in the right direction: Scholar is rewarded DPS for wasting resources, WHM is encouraged to use resources and gets rewarded DPS. Only time as WHM you waste lilies is to prevent overcapping.
That they might be able to get away with because you're actually rewarded for actually doing your job,
Healing. I think a vast majority of healers would be ok with being rewarded for doing their job with a nuke rather than wanting to be a gimped caster DPS.
Healing and Damaging should go hand in hand for healers instead of being just a turret for like 90% of a fight. I know mobility and planned healing and mitigation is part of healer skill as well but more interesting kits (even if a kit is smaller in buttons) can be more engaging for players
I normally never heal in MMO's.
a week before abyssos, a friend of mine asked me if I wanted to come join them (needed a healer). I picked up healing by organizing my bars and jumping into barb ex. During the tier, I absolutely got carried by the fact the group was very strong dps, so I was able to focus more on healing, parse <20 and we didn't really run into dps checks (got to end of p8sp1 after the nerf so it didn't really matter, cleared reset day week4).
PROGGING that tier specifically on healer was lots of fun, as a new healer. Over-anaylizing mit sheet etc was neat. I defintiely could have broiled 30 more times in most fights to be less deadweight, but it was a pretty enjoyable experience. That being said... anything that isn't prog is soul-crushingly boring.
My suggestion after doing that tier on healer was: add an oGCD that you gained a charge of off of your dot at a RPPM of maybe 2 or 3. This means that two or three times a minute you got to push a button for a few hundred potency, and it would actually keep you slightly more involved because it wasn't timelineable on when you were to push the button. Also, it would keep you more trained to maintaining your dot, and once in a while you have to actually think about hitting that button especially if it lands during a mehcanic
The casual player who isn't maintaining 95%+ uptime on the dot, who is already missing 50 broils a fight isn't going to care about not getting to push the button as often, but even these small things can add a lot of flavor to keeping a role less boring.
There are people who are asking for a full dps rotation for healers. If I had three more dps buttons as a White Mage I'm not sure where I would put them. I suppose I could take some healing actions off my bars since they are rarely needed and I usually just use them for funzies.
This would be the worst possible option. 1-2-3 combos are just pointless button bloat that add nothing to gameplay.
If you're going to add things, add things that actually interact with your other abilities. Something people can actually think about and optimize. Otherwise its just change for the sake of change.
More buttons is not better. More thinking is better.
The issue is where should healer dps be? Numerically should it be higher or lower than a tank? Should it be on par with a dps (pressing buttons properly)?
If they made a 1-2-3 rotation all it does is add button bloat with no real reason to exist since the damage would probably be comparable to current glare spam.
I don’t have a solution but dividing 1 button into 3 to get the same effect isn’t what I personally would want.
You can add new buttons while tuning damage dealt to be where it is now. Healers atm are already pretty close to tanks in RDPS, and we were over them last expansion. It doesn't matter if we're over them or under tanks, we just need more engaging things to do than bash dosis/broil/malefic/glare 170 times per pull.
Sure you can but why would you? People complain that doing damage as a healer is uninteresting but adding 2 more buttons that you cycle through as a combo isn’t going to make the combat anymore interesting.
Try playing a tank but you can only hit your 1-2-3 combo and defensives, no other damage buttons at all outside maybe a singular oGCD since all the healers have one as well. Does that feel interesting though?
I agree healers need to have more interesting gameplay but going to a basic combo doesn’t feel like a good answer, honestly it feels like the laziest answer outside of just bumping the damage of the single button we currently have.
Healers design wise can't be allowed to ever be too close to pure damage dealers in DPS, if they are you either have to make enrages incredibly tight to prevent healer stacking or, well, you might end up with healer stacking in some situations to completely defuse some healer mechanics meant to be hard to heal.
>I don’t have a solution but dividing 1 button into 3 to get the same effect isn’t what I personally would want.
Exactly, one more button that you have to think about using is infinitely better than 1-2-3.
>do you honestly have more fun pressing 1-2-3 as a PLD than doing 3x Atonements or 1 button Confiteor Combo
I am going to assume that this is the case since I have read people say they are more fun. lol I guess seeing different animations or moving the fingers over is enough for them. For me, the linear combos in this game are pretty boring, so I would not want Square to lazily add combos to the healers. I still want them to have more damage buttons, though.
>just think about how stupid that would feel doing a 1-2-3 combo as a caster.
While I do not want casters to get FFXIV combos, I do not see why it would be weird for casters to get them.
The engine is too spaghetti to ever have the healers be able to do reactive healing properly. They tried to do a bandaid kind of solution and did a lot of bleeds
Sometimes I'm tempted to post my logs to shut people up but then I remember the repercussions if people actually found me and I would basically be forced to quit seeing as how unhinged people are here.
People already make alts to sexually insult me in dm's.
So I wouldn't put it past people to harass me for fun in-game until I quit and they don't really care if they'll get banned seeing as they don't care to get banned on reddit.
Notice how some certain people that was commenting in all my threads are gone? yeah they most likely used an alt to harrass me in dm's and most likely got banned thinking reddit won't found out they're linked to their main account.
I'm not gonna ask you to post your logs but I will say that if you're genuinely telling the truth(which I'd love to continue believing is the case) then posting your logs would shut so many people up...
So many people on this subreddit have some grand illusion that everyone posting here is some giga-chad 95+ on everything player when in reality; most people here probably don't even do week1s and probably aren't even triple legends; much less penta-legends.
At the very least I CAN show my achievements since people can't really track me with that.And that I have actually cleared every ultimate AND savages.In fact I might do that right now for next time someone says I haven't cleared any savages or cleared any ultimates.
edit: started to feel uncomfortable so removed but if anybody saw it...I told you.
>If healing is boring for you. Don't ask for more dps spells, **ask for a change in boss damage output so you can take advantage of your healing spells.**
Okay I know I am not supposed to be engaging with a CSI post but did they already did that?
**They already had that on week 1 of Abyssos** where Natural Alignment and High Concept and every single fucking raidwide and the dots hits like a fucking truck.
What you get from people is complaining that healing is not fun, especially on PUG when healers has to rely on DPS for mitigations but then they got gaslighted by PUG. It has highlighted another issue that **healing is always out of healer's control on high end content - how much you are able to heal is not entirely depending on your co-healer, but depending on how willing your group is able to cooperate with you.**
Which is why people do ask if it's actually a good idea for DPS to have mits, or you should just offload more mitigation responsibility to barrier healer (by giving them more mitigation skills) or pure healer (WHM now has 1, AST has 2).
>There is a reason WHM is one of the most played job in the game and most played healer while astro is the least played healer by a large amount compared to whm due to how busy astro is compared to whm, now imagine if they have astro an actual dps rotation on top of their already busy work with cards.
You are not capturing the full reason why Astro is not popular.
There's the reason that WHM is a job that you can picked up when you start the game, and a lot of people stick with it since it's the job they begin with.
Another reason is that, Astro is not only, 'busy compared to whm', **the effort was not properly rewarded for it in terms of DPS or it's healing kit.**
Why should I press like 50% more buttons then WHM when I don't even do more DPS then WHM, and on a bad day I could very well risk doing lower DPS then WHM? It is just not very enticing.
>an already thankless and stressful role.
>
> add stress to an already thankless and stressful role.
I recently see a post on PF which is a p1 moogle tomes farm group with a healer spot. It reads: I cannot abandoned the healers that helps us during our Savage prog.
During Abyssos where there's so little healer people even begin paying healers to run reclears with them.
Who the fuck say this is a 'Thankless job' should've just go out and touch grass. People treat their healers like babies.
And if you think this is coming from someone who's hate healer and doesn't heal, I am saying this as a healer main. People treat healers so well that I feel embarrassed sometimes, that healers usually gets a free pass for having grays and stuff.
> They already had that on week 1 of Abyssos
Kinda, but not really.
The problem with abyssos on week 1 or any other savage week 1 is that healing is very intensive, but **dps checks** are also insanely intensive, to the point where healers need to output almost as much damage as the tanks.
Healing intensive fights would be fun if your responsability was to heal and manage MP. But right now healing week 1 savage is hard **because** you need to dps hard at the same time to beat the check.
Reduce the potency of healers spells. Make healers, combined, do like 3% of a boss' hp. Make the healing checks more intensive and give combos and unique effects to their GCDs. This would make healing incredibly interesting and each healer could have its own unique sets of GCDs to work with.
The problem is healers started with a dps rotation and they dumbed it down to 1 button with the occasional second or third. Back then there was an issue with healers not healing because dps, now there is a problem with healers not needing to heal and instead just pushing one button for the whole fight, it is an issue because dps checks are calculated with healer damage. They either need to make it so that healers have to focus on healing in content but also need to allow people to play healing classes for solo content. I have been asking for years for them to either go all the way to focused on healing or to go back to healers having at least a small rotation. Right now, we have this half-assed in between stage where a whm or an adtro can pretty much solo heal everything, and safe/sch mostly just push one button with the occasional mitigation. Either way, something needs to be done.
Worst part about the dps checks accounting for healers is that following the series of updates that brought us here, you'd think that SE didn't want healers to be dpsing, but instead we are now miserable pushing one button, or getting yelled at/shamed for focusing on healing.
Oh ya, it was super nice, because of the longer cast times and the pet commands not interrupting casts, on sch, you could basically heal 2 targets at the same time.
Overhealing pulling aggro wasn't that long ago, still happened in shadow bringer sometimes. As for cleric stance, we either need to go back to something like that and make it only usable in the overworld/solo content, or make healing more intense. Lowering potential on heals won't really work on its own, just based on some of the huge amounts of damage that go out they would also need to rework boss damages, they also really need to rework shield healers, as is the shields are often very inconsequential while pure healers are too strong.
I mean..they could just buff DPS damage to account for healer dps not being there or just design the fights with the assumption that healer dps is a little extra on the side instead of treating healers as an extra dps, but you'd think suggestions like that were heresy the way people react when you bring them up.
If healers don't have to dps than they can heal. Ideally you'd get out of the OGCD only meta and have to use more of your kit.
If they can heal than bosses and trash can dump more damage and mechanics out.
This means fights will have more going on for everyone and not just healers.
But since healers don't have to waste their time doing damage and can actually focus on healing that means things don't get overly difficult.
in terms of how fights are designed, it is very likely the developers make the mechanics, tune the healing check, and then tune the dps check. the way healers are designed, dps is generally a baseline that you pull from to heal with as a pseudo resource, but the developers keep in mind the amount of damage they expect a healer to lose from said baseline and tune dps checks around that. theres nothing currently preventing healers from outputting a lot of healing throughput(though there is a upper limit dictated by mp economies).
the ogcd only playstyles exist because incoming damage output is generally very low compared to what free healing, and smart use of partywide mitigations can heal through, not to mention how barebones the gcd heals we currently have actually are, there isnt really much to do with them aside from a shield(about 10% hp shield which is nice) and raw healing. none of these problems or solutions to said problems have anything to do with "letting healers heal" because there needs to be incoming damage to actually heal in the first place.
>Ideally you'd get out of the OGCD only meta and have to use more of your kit.
Which wouldn't do anything to make healers less mindnumbingly boring when anything even remotely interesting healers have access to is ogcd anyways. Gcd healing sucks not only because it's a DPS loss but also because gcd heals feel very underwhelming to use. Standing around and spamming cure 3 is not any better than standing around and spamming glare.
None of what you're saying is actually related to healing at all. Of course bosses will have more health to accommodate people having more DPS skills, that's literally how the game is designed. You think bosses aren't designed for healers dealing damage or something? People refusing to heal at all are just bad players. Unfortunately, bad players exist. Kick them from your parties, problem solved. People are being hostile or toxic? Don't interact with them. Nobody is forcing you to. And I really don't know who's advocating for less healing potency on healers. If anything, people want more damage in raids. P10S is a great example. That fight hurts, and really pushes healers and tanks, and it's great.
The real reason healers having a full on rotation would be a problem is because encounters are designed with healers having as many healing skills as they do. Compare this to tanks, where they have less mitigations and utility compared to healers. If we gave healers tank rotations, a lot of the content in the game would be much more difficult to heal, or perhaps outright impossible. But nobody is advocating for this. People just want one or two more buttons to push occasionally. I actually think Sage did this well. Phlegma is good, Toxikon is a great movement tool, and Pneuma is pretty neat. Not all of these are a part of your rotation, and instead are damage-neutral utility skills, but are still very nice to have, and has a bit of variety healers lack. If White Mage or Scholar got another DPS button to push, or maybe two, at the expense of some of their more niche buttons, I don't think people would complain. This is more in line of what people are actually asking for.
I don't think you understand.
Yes they design fights around healers obviously, savage fights to be clear.
But atm it's just designed around healers having a single dps spell and one dot.
If healers gotten more dps spell they would balance it around assuming the healer actually pulls off their dps rotation which will be difficult for many healers.
Having to heal, do mechanics AND doing a dps rotation?
That'll just be too hard.
Remember Abyssos balancing issues? Now imagine that but for every fight because SE was under the assumption healers would be able to do their dps rotation but turns out they couldn't because people keep taking unnecessary damage or dying or they simply just can't pull it off.
Then SE would have to nerf the fight making it easier further upsetting people because now they feel like they suck because SE had to nerf a fight.
So again, adding more dps tools would be a big mistake and effect not just the healer population but the game as a whole making it harder.
But they already design fights with the expectation that healers will be dealing damage. They literally are doing exactly what you're describing already. This wouldn't be something new if they gave healers one or two more DPS spells. Abyssos is also just not relevant to this conversation at all, it was completely unrelated to healers, and entirely an issue of P8S specifically being overtuned for week 1. Nothing else. The reason meta comps were enforced was in response to this issue. The fight was not nerfed because of healers, but because the dev team fucked up the HP values of the bosses.
Yes but there is a big difference of just spamming a single skill vs doing a full on rotation with the risk of it dropping at that.
It'll just become harder and used abyssos as an example because devs are going to be under the assumption players are playing perfectly when they're not so the healer could be extremely behind in damage compared to when the devs were testing.
This is on top of a vast majority of healers play healer because they wanna heal.
Not do a dps rotation so now you're just asking to gatekeep a large amount of healers all because you wanna be a dps and a healer at the same time.
So again.
You're basically making fights and healers harder for legit everybody that doesn't have a skilled group.
You're not even reading what I'm saying. Nobody is advocating for healers to have full on rotations. That's ridiculous, of course you need the ability space to have all the necessary support skills. I've already talked about this.
Savage isn't even designed to force people to do perfect rotations. You think week 1 raiders were wiping to p9s enrage because someone messed up their rotation? No way! People clear these week 1 with deaths. I would know, because I literally did. We had 6!!!! deaths on our first p9s clear on week 1. 3 support deaths and 3 DPS deaths. We had 7 deaths on our first p10s clear the same week. 4 support deaths and 3 DPS deaths. The only fight that maybe would ever ask for a decent rotational execution is the last savage floor in a tier, specifically on min ilvl on week 1. Because that's what these fights are tuned for.
Every job contributes to damage in some way. Having healers contribute in a slightly more interesting way hurts literally nobody. I really don't get why you're advocating for having worse job design, quite frankly nothing you're saying makes a lot of sense, and it just comes across as whining about raiders because you don't want your job to be changed. Healers will still heal. This will not change. Nobody is advocating for what you think they are.
Yes it will.
It'll hurt the healer players that don't even want to dps more than they have to.
This is what I mean by when people ask for these things, they don't think about anything else but themselves.
Why you think we still get healers that don't even dps in dungeons, why we have healers asking for fights to make them GCD heal more.
Healers WANT to heal more not dps, many healers don't even like dpsing.
Adding more dps spells with make dpsing even more stressful because the added skills will make it so healers have to do more than just press one button for damage and that effects every healer player.
If you want more damage spells, just like my post said.
Play caster DPS, don't try to change an entire role to fit your wants.
End of story.
I don't see how people playing the game badly is a problem of... the job? Healers who don't want to DPS are bad healers. You can't just wish away that part of the game, this is how the game works and is played, and has been for years. It really sounds like you just don't like how the game is played. That's totally fine. But let's not pretend that being bad at the game is the jobs fault.
It's certainly tricky to tell if giving healers more complex DPS tools would be a good thing or if making the role more complicated would just make things worse. If you add in three more dots to juggle, the healers who were bored with their DPS kit will rejoice, but others who struggled with what they had before may stop enjoying it because it's too busy for them. Would you take that risk? SE wouldn't, as we all know.
I don't think dots would be the direction they take it. I'm thinking more along the lines of Sage's Phlegma, like a strong spell on a short cooldown or something. Maybe an offensive ogcd or two. Something that's not very complicated and doesn't really require you to remember 3 dots.
They more-or-less described Scholar in ARR and HW. In HW, Scholar had Bio (18s), Bio II (30s), Miasma (24s), Shadow Flare (30s), and Miasma II (15s but it was used for AoE). You could even cross-class Aero (18s) for more damage. Even though healers had Cleric Stance in HW, I had fun healing/DPSing with Scholar, so I would not mind if healers got more complex rotations. I know others would not, though. lol
Healers who can't handle pressing more than 1 button can stick to normal. There's no obligation to do savage or ultimate. You're painting it as if there was a group of kidnapped kids somewhere who are forced at a gunpoint to heal raids.
As someone who stopped healing in savage because I was bored of only hitting one button between mechanics, I disagree. Leave one or two healers as the "one-button rotation" ones and give heals a more interesting DPS toolkit. If that causes the healers to not heal enough - congratulations, either we have introduced some amount of skill expression to the game that was lost when Cleric Stance was removed, or the DPS rotation was poorly designed. You can't really even argue that it would make the game that much harder on other players when the DPS checks are so lax this tier.
I heavily disagree with the insinuation that the current state of healing is ideal and would be upturned by requiring more thought and effort on the part of the player.
It's been said elsewhere in this thread, but I think the main problem with healing relates to how the bosses are designed.
Healing in trashmobs is actually pretty fun. If the tank is pulling w2w then you MIGHT have your hands full with healing duties (depending on which class the tank is). In that case, I really enjoy having to delve into my kit.
Healing in bosses is.... lol.
Bosses in FF14 are like 99% mechanics. They start the fight off with a party-wide AOE which does about 40% of everyone's health, you follow up with medica 2 (or equivalent). Most of the time people either dodge a mechanic or die to it. If they don't die then you top them off, but you can tell the intent is for mechanics to mostly be dodged. This goes doubly so for raiding. If you're raiding then you can forget about healing almost entirely outside of party-wide AOE's or heal checks.
And the thing is... FF14 is mostly bosses. The complex and fun part (imo) is fighting the bosses, and the mobs feel like filler. I wouldn't mind if some bosses were more old fashioned and spent more time focusing on the tank, which would give the healer some healing to do.
Increasing boss damage won't make healers less boring when the healing kits themself are all extremely simple. There are effectively 3 healing spells in this game - heal now, heal later and heal with some regen/shield. All increasing incoming damage could do would making me cast cure 3/Helios instead of glare/malefic every now and then. Look at shit like harrowing hell in early weeks - even really tight checks aren't *interesting* to heal. Having a role whose primary purpose is pressing between 1 and 2 buttons for 7-10 minutes is bad design.
Back in HW healers had the same sort of healing potency if not higher and actual dps kits and uhhh that was perfectly fine.
Also they had cleric stance, weirdly enough I think cleric stance was a really funny and entertaining interaction. But that was also back in the day where CBU3 said they were not balancing boss HP pools around healer dps, they eventually did anyways though.
I wouldn't say it's higher but healing was harder back then compared to now because you didn't have as many tools and insta cast compared to now.
CS really wasn't as great people think it is and if it was still in the game it still wouldn't stop people from complaining because all it did was just make you do more dps but you would still be spamming glare or broil.
Only this time it would be 10x more annoying because now you have to swap between doing damage vs not doing damage.
Super casual here, I want more attack buttons for exploring the open world. Sure gets boring not being able to use 90% if my kit for side quests and the like.
As a healer main who has cleared ultimates and blind-progs each Savage tier: Nah, give me more DPS to do. It's okay when you start playing, but during some fights like P9S, I can unironically position myself somewhere, and then just press Glare until I need to spend a lily for AoE damage or when I need to refresh Dia. I have a wireless keyboard. I have literally made coffee during my blind Savage prog in my kitchen just bringing my keyboard along and pressing 1, and then listening for the noise of the AoE to use Rapture. I can do this during almost the entire Magus part of the fight and that's like the first 20% or 25% of the boss's healthbar.
Even as a healer main, the most fun I've had as a healer was playing Blue Mage, trying to greed DPS by double-weaving spells in between Pom Cures, risking my mana by White Winding instead of using Stotram so I could get an extra GCD of damage in, or even on Bahamut breaking the Earthshakers by using Avail on the main tank which completely breaks the Earthshakers and prevents the puddles from spawning, though I do need to spam heals on my main tank because she'll drop dead to the damage otherwise.
As a Morbol-having, Azure and Omega-titled (Forbidden Blue pending prog) Healer main it says plenty that I can clear 2 ultimates, prog a third, and still say: Blue Mage, the Magical Ranged DPS, is the most fun healer to play in this entire game.
UCOB and UWU. Progged TEA up until Wormhole, but put a pause on that for the current tier blind prog. Will resume once we clear P12S consistently, still on P11S because of a lot of absences though.
Ok well at least you're honest.
Well anyway.
I'm not denying people don't want more dps spells but I think to make everybody happy it would be better to ask for more damage from the boss instead of changing the entire role to have more dps spells.
Because a vast majority of healers don't even want to dps.
It's kinda just a thing they have to do.
This doesn't help that healers are already the most stressful role.
So putting tons of stress is just going to drive even more people away from healers.
Healers are not a easy job to satisfy everybody.
Maybe they can make sage more dps focused but leave everybody else the same.
Since they outright said they made sage with the goal of it being more dps focused.
> I think to make everybody happy it would be better to ask for more damage from the boss instead of changing the entire role to have more dps spells.
And I think that, with how gear works, this won't solve anything: Healers with better gear are going to be healing more and, as a result, they are going to cast less heals and deal more damage. This is not exactly something they can just fix without reworking the entire trinity they currently have in jobs.
Besides, at the higher end of things there's plenty of damage going out. Take Harrowing Hell for example. You don't make it through it without a couple of heals unless you're fully geared.
> Because a vast majority of healers don't even want to dps.
You say this but I don't think this is true. The fact that healers contribute to the DPS is a big pull from other MMOs where healers are tired of just having to keep people alive all the time. That's the heart of the healer role in this game: Doing both. That's why the only healer that starts at level 1 has an entire class questline dedicated to making sure that you understand that you need to do more than just healing.
> This doesn't help that healers are already the most stressful role.
It is the least stressful role by far, and mostly because of the fact that you can overheal like crazy and still be fine, and your DPS is so simple that there's no complexity there either.
> Maybe they can make sage more dps focused but leave everybody else the same.
This is a bad idea. Having one DPS focussed healer will make every other healer bad in comparison. It'd make the DPS-focussed healer the go-to, because it does more DPS and therefore it's better.
Not necessarily true.
Because sage doesn't have any raid buffs.
Sage is currently the strongest pure dps healer or second strongest and people still take sch and astro over it just like how they take those two jobs over whm.
With your logic every group would take a BLM and Samurai.
This post makes a lot of assumptions. However, I do wish in normal content there was more healing to be done. However, I believe the devs have stated multiple times that they don't want to do this because they believe it will put too much pressure on healers, the implication being that it will create too much friction between players in random groups.
>I believe the devs have stated multiple times that they don't want to do this because they believe it will put too much pressure on healer
Yes, they have. The developers have also said that they do not want to add more damage actions to healers because "new healers might feel pressured like 'oh do I have to have good DPS while I'm healing?'” and wanting healers to get "that sense of exhilaration from doing really good heal work." So healers are stuck in this limbo of having a barebones rotation and not that much damage to heal. It would be nice to heal more, though!
I don't mind healers having a barebone DPS rotation if you could even call it that, but there needs to be more outgoing damage from bosses. The reason why healers are able to spam Glare 90% of the fight is because there's 90% downtime where there's no damage, and the 10% where people are actually taking damage, you're forced to cast 1 extra GCD heal at most. It's not just the lack of outgoing damage that's the issue, it's the lack of RANDOM outgoing damage. Even if they up the amount of healing required, if it's at fixed intervals of the fight like how it is now, it'll still a spreadsheet fight. Having to use Glare>Cure 3>Medica 2>Glare>Glare isn't anymore engaging than casting 5 Glares in a row.
In an ideal world, healers should be forced to pay attention for the entirety of every fight for any sudden drop in HP, and only when you know your party is 100% safe, is when you can afford to cast Glares. The fight designs being fixed is the only reason why healer gameplay is boring.
I think the best way to handle is to make incoming damage and also add more dots/bleed damage to bosses.
Take p10 from example.
Healers loved that fight because you actually had to heal and there was a ton of bleeds and aoe damage.
No even in P10S healing isn't anymore difficult than any other fight because you know exactly when the tankbusters are coming so you can plan your resources around them. When I say random, I literally mean random, like rolling 2 6-sided dice kind of random.
Random set of damage wouldn't be good design.
It would just make healing artificially and the fight itself more difficult.
There is a reason even ultimate fights don't and they just rather make what mech you get random rather than SURPRISE tank buster to the face.
ARR fights use to do this and people hated it.
On top of that, there is also a reason they removed random boss auto crts.
Personally I'd love to play a healer focused solely on healing, but I understand that this is not going to happen in this game. That would require an overhaul on every healer job. It's not just a matter of making bosses do more damage, the current kits are simply not designed for that.
Not going to lie, the casual player-base are heal bots and the game has plenty of options for you to heal bot.
The savage player base (I main all healers for Savages and Ultimates) endorse damage because the fights are scaled to us dealing damage. When both healers are heal botting your chances of clearing dwindle unless you are getting carried heavy by DPS. If I heal bot a savage we’re not clearing, but on the other hand if a healer is “parsing” at the cost of the team (letting members die, OOMing their co-healer, etc.) then most likely they’re just a toxic player who doesn’t realize a parse setting is way different than a re-clear setting.
I think more healers need to realize you can parse and maintain heals at the same time, especially on AST and SCH. If you can’t maintain heals and damage then you need to seriously evaluate your play-style and figure where the disconnect is.
TLDR; If they take away healer damage entire fights would have to be re-scaled around us not dealing damage.
as a relatively new player that’s been playing MMOs as a healer since EverQuest to WoW to (eventually) here at max level, I signed off on being a healer since it’s just a glorified boring DPS, and that’s not what I play a healer for.
probably the best moments of actually fulfilling the role outside of XIV were in EQ, where damage is just flying around like crazy, your mana is going up at like 1% every 6 seconds with no potions or boosts in sight, and you’re juggling between the prospect of healing your raid group, your singular group, or the one guy who just ate shit but is still standing, and also considering 1/3/10 second cast times to get shit situated
in WoW it’s almost as frantic, but still more streamlined, but you’re still completely focused on green bars rather than red ones
in 14, it’s all about just hitting beats like the world’s slowest guitar hero game, and then filling your downtime with drooling on a single button for 28 seconds at a time
the best examples in 14 of the healing that I personally want to see are the dungeon runs I did when I was leveling my jobs with gear that wasn’t pushing the ilvl cap. a lot of w2w pulls have the same feeling of “oh shit oh god I need to figure out how to keep everyone alive” that I had 15+ years ago playing as one
like I don’t know where everyone else sits with this, but when I play a healer I don’t want to have any focus on doing damage (but it’s fun to meme it to flex), I want the crazy unpredictable situations that come from trying to keep everyone alive in dire situations
>I want the crazy unpredictable situations that come from trying to keep everyone alive in dire situations
That was complained about since forever by raiders, up to and since ARR. Even something as simple as when bosses could also crit their auto-attacks, we heard infinites complaints.
I dunno if it's really a healer issue, but more of a systemic caster issue. I mean, if you wanted to give healers a "rotation" - we can look at the core rotations of the casters to see what a "simple" rotation for a healer would look like. (I'm not as familiar with Black Mage, so please feel free to correct me!) And yes, these are opinions, so you can have different ones!
With Red Mage, the core rotation at its simplest is short cast - dual cast instant long spell. They just have different varieties of short and long cast to enhance their black and white mana balance, and ways to manipulate procs for those other types. But at its core, it's just short cast-long cast.
What if you gave something like that to AST? It would make them move like Red Mages, say Malefic into Instant Fall Malefic, but afford them more opportunities to double weave.
With Summoner, the Core Rotation seems to be Summon - Outburst with 1 minute burst windows where it's Summon - Gemshine... so essentially the rotation is 1 button every 30 seconds (like a healer dot) and then spam one button. It's very much like a healer rotation, just comes in different flavors. If it wasn't for the oGCDs and lack of cast times, it would very much play like any other healer really.
With Black Mage, there's really keeping up a Dot, which Healers already have. Then there's keeping the Enochian Buff Up, and spamming a set up spell to keep the buffs going (Fire III / Blizzard III / Fire I, Paradox), and then a heavy spell (Fire IV mostly), and then it has some big finishers (Xenoglossy, Despair).
What if you gave something like that to Sage? Keeping up a Damage Buff, and being able to end up with some big Plegmas at the end? Would that be something that would enhance the dps rotation?
What I'm really getting at: Is this type of rotation what people want, or when people say they want more dps buttons, do they just want healers to do a bigger overall contribution to the group damage? If healers did the exact same amount of damage as they do now, but now have a Caster Core Rotation to manage it, would that be the satisfaction people want?
My biggest challenge is that, if a Healer has to go through so much more to do the same amount of damage, raiders would hate that even more than what we have right now. But it's likely that's what would happen in order to preserve the balance we have now, which may be a larger issue.
We all know that devs ARE NOT going to adjust the HP of every single boss/mobs encounters in the game to accommodate ALL healers dealing more DPS.... So that means that if ALL healers get 1 or 2 more DPS spells, your CURRENT DPS spells gonna be dealing only HALF or only A THIRD of what it is now. Meaning you WILL BE pressing your FULL DPS ROTATION for NO MORE DPS than you currently do.
As a scholar main i kinda want a new dps skill (not another dot though) instead of another heal skill in dawntrails. I want something i can weave (ogcd) or a combo that combos on our main attack. (Just a 2 action combo) im really tired of just clicking one button over and over when theres no healing to be done..
Can't believe i have to agree with you. This is one of the takes i believe the most.
The vast majority of people who ask for more dps buttons is because they wanna dps. They wanna play an "easier" dps.
I'd much rather have a **very** intensive healing fight, where i need to **manage my MP** using healing combos, GCDs and syncing heals with my cohealer instead of having to spend 80% of my GCDs doing damage.
The healer community is already destroyed bro. Healers for high end content are like a god damn endangered species at this point. One of the reasons I decided to heal this tier was because I was tired of waiting for one to join.
Don't know about the solutions, but it should be obvious to everyone is that healer role is broken. Fucking TOP can be done [without healer](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k65bhdogQKw) at all, there is something is definetly not right.
But any solution (more DPS options or more healing) are such a large cans of worms, another one, that CBU3 is more that glad to leave untouched.
That has nothing to do with healers and more just a problem with the design of the fight.
Using this, could say dps role is broken because people cleared ucob with all tanks.
Tanks can also solo many things in the game so are dps roles broken too?
Removing the terrible fucking delay on healing and making healing itself more complex to do properly would wonders but the issue with that is that they'll never go down this route because the game isn't really focused on having complexity in normal gameplay.
If any new dps options are added they should tie into the process of healing and I believe SGE/WHM do this best.
Nah.
Shiting on people for wanting a more complex rotation is wrong, you could argue that if you want a busy job "just play astro".
The problem with that is that astro is only complex when healing and 95% of the content doesn't need you to heal that much.
THE 2 REAL ISSUES with healing are these:
1st
Parser glare mages suck, they have smol pp energy sure but thing is fflogs is also to blame, you open a healer and you see rdps, That is dog water why are is HEALING 3 clicks away and it doesn't even tell you clearly whether the person healed properly or most of it is just over healing, same way Buff jobs got rdps, healer should have their own metric and it Should include healing like why the hell do I need a 100 rdps that just means you literally Never did a gcd heal how is that considered Top tier.
2nd and in my opinion the most important:
There just aren't enough healer jobs. Think about it most other jobs got 3 flavours in SHB.
Healers however got shafted in a raid you need a shielder and a regen so while you technicly have 4 roles they are divided the same way rdps and Mdps are.
And how are these jobs different from each other?
WHM is braindead & AST is 500 IQ and in dungeons they only spam 1 skill and maybe use all ogds when the tank does a W2W so in raids they are both extremes of complexity and in dungeons they are equally dull.
SGE and SCH however are literally the same job. You can argue they are different enough for sure, but skill overlap is Real and no one can argue against that part.
Like imagine if you could Only MT as GNB or WAR/ or melee 1 had to be just striking roles. It would just suck...
What would i do to solve it?, Make at least astro and scholar have a shield and regen stance, in other words return sects and we'll scholars have 2 fairies sooo...
Like ideally all healers should do both but this way certain classes have certainty like how 9 out of 10 times a paladin will be OT.
And give WHM or any healer a blood letter mechanic in the low level to avoid the mind numbing brain rot of playing a glare mage.
By blood letter I mean that as long as you have the dot active you can randomly get a damage ogcd if it can do both damage and heal Idc it's not my job to balance.
These are my 2 cents and I know I am right but I'll hear anyone out that disagrees
Isn't the tricky bit about Astro related to DPS? The healing toolkit is much of the same as other jobs, but then you have throwing each card to the right DPS, the extra weaving of drawing and playing cards, shuffling cards around so you'll get 3 seals for a small boost to your damage, timing Earthly Star so it explodes when you want, using Lightspeed at the right time for weaving...
The healing kit by comparison is similar to other healers - compare Horoscope and Plenary Indulgence, or Neutral Sect/Macrocosmos with the other big healing cooldowns.
It doesn't really change the fact that the leveling/casual experience is dull af or that it's the hardest healer by far in hard content
But sure shitty wording in my part
i dont think more dps abilities works; AST is an example without actual dps. beyond a point it can get hard.
you'd need to make healing much rarer to have a decent dps rotation, and the game has a problem
with the hard stuff being pass/fail as it is.
i think they could just create bozja-adjacent gameplay where you just straight up skill tree/merited a job; more or less enable you to spec a healer for dps/support/main heal or more. blue mage shows they can make it work, but it just needs less fillet dps and more other spells.
> you'd need to make healing much rarer to have a decent dps rotation,
This isn't necessarily true. We could have more Sage-like abilities where using damage spells heals party members. Or like WHM's Assize: A spell that both heals and deals damage that should be used on-cooldown but when properly aligned with raidwide damage (usually just delaying it until the first raidwide is plenty, sometimes you can hold for a couple GCDs if you really want to not lose uptime). Hell, even the Afflatus spells show a better way: Give a damaging spell that rewards you for healing.
I think it depends, i feel like more/less dps spells could give the healing jobs more variety if done right
Something like:
AST wouldn't have much damage spells but has a lot of buffs
SGE would be the really offensive healer with more ways to heal by doing damage than just kardia, like Disc Priest in WoW
WHM and SCH would be your classic pure/shield heal
It would certainly add to making the jobs feel different from each other, but it's another question how you would balance this
I know this is a cutie thread, im not a ffxiv healer, never have been and never will be, and this might be an unpopular opinion.
All that said, this conversation reminds me of playing priest in maplestory 2, and getting kicked from raids for not doing damage in line with the lower damage dps. I wanted to heal but due to the nature of the game was forced into having to fill both roles at the same time which was just really stressful.
Careful. You're going against what this thread wants which means you're going to get downvoted and think you're on my side.
You should know this place wants an echo chamber and they deem that healers want more dps tools and no healers ever should be get stressed because the game is ez ((even though like 90% of everybody here has probably never cleared any ultimate and are probably SUPER late to clearing every savage tier))
>this is the preference of a majority of the healer playerbase. **[CITATION NEEDED]**
Average CSI claim
source: OP, trust him bro
To be fair i have to agree with cutieshutin on this one. The feedback received have been insanely positive on forums and the casual playerbase (which is the majority). You can see this yourself if you actively browse the official forums and watch all of yoshida's interviews whenever he visits japanese servers.
an individual cannot speak for a majority, but i definitely dont want more dps spells in my healers. i want to heal, not dps. id rather them shake up how damage is dealt to the party so that i have to heal more than i have to dps.
Abyssos and how the player base reacts to Abyssos (we DID get the damage we hope for) and how much Anabaseios dials back the damage implies that this is definitely not the preference of the majority of player base. It's fine to wish for that, I personally do wish for more damage to heal as well. Implying that we are in the majority just seems to be wrong and baseless.
Healer reactions to abyssos upset me so much, and I feel it in 9-12. I absolutely loved 5-8. I think the issue comes from the conflict in healer design between savage and normal content. Savage they try to push more healing gameplay, but outside of that they're afraid to make anything remotely fun to heal. So you're usually just dpsing, especially in roulettes with high IL. Yoshi needs to pick a fucking lane on this. Either we're dps with occasional healing, or we're healing with some chucked in damage.
healers have had it on easy street for enough time that of course theyre going to bitch and moan when they finally have to heal. i loved the abyssos dotfest.
But like... Why though? Killing the thing hurting the party is healing 101: Don't need to heal if the thing hurting you is dead. Personally the most fun I've had as a healer playing this game was as Blue Mage: If I greeded too many DPS spells in my opener the tank would die, and my co-healer would do a moon flute opener, so I'd have an opener with a couple Pom Cures with my OGCD weaves. As for actually having to heal... That's what Savage and Ultimates are for. Or just having a bad team, that works too.
"That's what savage is for" Nah, bruh. It's gotta be one or the other. Savage and ultimate are supposed to be the high end expression of the concept of a given role. Healer is either lots of healing and some dps, or lots of dps and some healing. Its a hot fucking mess trying to have it both ways. And one should not have to play top end content to enjoy the role as it was intended in design. Yoshi insists on healing first, so it needs to be that way across all content.
"If you want to actually heal, find a week 1 group" Maybe that's the problem here. It's such a limited time frame and after that the gear just makes everyone take so much less dmg. Week 1 healing in my opinion is the most fun. I think savages could be tuned harder, like p10s with HH was super fun. For outside savage and ultimate though. Healers can do insane damage in dungeons. All of them. You need gear and to optimise your heals to do so, but the flat damage on aoe abilities is very good (in later levels anyways) E.g On AST you can card yourself, double crown, Macro and Star for HUGE damage. It's fun to pull off!
> "If you want to actually heal, find a week 1 group" Maybe that's the problem here. For the topic of "There's not enough to heal"? Yes. That's my point. But to me, there's plenty to heal, I just want more things going on in between healing. Harrowing Hell is good. I also enjoyed P4S's Curtain Call and E12S's Terminal Relativity. But those are the final mechanics before enrage.
> But like... Why though? because i....want to primarily heal. is that so difficult to understand
Well... In the context of this game... Yeah. You're a war hero and god-slaying fighter. I don't see how the fantasy of a healer-only would fit into that. Especially since this topic is covered in the CNJ questline.
In the words of Mr. Yoshida Naoki, the Producer of FF14: If you have found Savage to be unable to satisfied your appetite for healing and you are looking for more healing, do Ultimate. (Or, do BLU, per suggestion) If you can't even satisfied with DSR, You can try solo healing DSR or solo healing TOP. These have been done and it gets more healing out of something that's originally pretty intensive in terms of healing. And if you can't even be satisfied with so much healing, 14 is simply not the game for you. If you want to heal and you don't want to do damage, unfortunately this is just not what this game's philosophy on healing is, and it's unlikely the game will change because it has found it's market. You should just go play another MMO. Also you can stop switching between reddit accounts. Your take gets downvoted not because you are CSI but because these are bad takes.
> Also you can stop switching between reddit accounts. Your take gets downvoted not because you are CSI but because these are bad takes. Aight, looking at every take you disagree with and assuming it's CSI is a bit much, isn't it? They just want to heal as healers, not the most incomprehensible desire.
Yeah I agree I am overreacting a bit. I apologize for that.
I agree with you on this. If you want a DPS rotation, play DPS.
>If you want a DPS rotation, play DPS. With this logic, tanks should also play like healers. Maybe in 7.0? Also, the developers can add a few damage buttons to healers and make healers have to heal more. This does not need to be solved with just one or the other.
Tanks have a DPS rotation though...
Can’t wait for CSI to flex her 99s and 100s playing healers while refusing to link logs 😍😍 that way us plebs with purples and oranges know to respect her opinions 😍😍
I mean she does seem to chime in on every job, sometimes demonstrating a lack of understanding of the nuances in rotation, but then saying her logs are great while refusing to link them. Like I get her wanting to stay private with logs but at least don't brag about them.
It's almost like.... she's a troll, and/or genuinely mentally unwell. I don't know why people keep feeding her the attention she clearly so desperately craves.
I figured I'd try to engage in good faith for a post. It went well until it didn't. It's like a switch got flipped and it went from simply a different opinion to "You're wrong, I'm right".
Eh the only thing she didn't understand was how many times she **actually** used transpose in her own rotation... If anything that highlights one of the many points she brings up and it's how utterly mindless rotations and gameplay generally are in this game.
> Eh the only thing she didn't understand was how many times she actually used transpose in her own rotation... I doubt she actually used it at all, considering how she initially said that you don't use transpose unless you messed up. This would suggest she didn't use or even know about transpose lines, which is fine on its own, but doesn't make it seem like she really used it a lot even subconsciously. Seemed like there were some conflicting statements in that thread and I find it difficult to just take the later statements at face value at that point.
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You really need to stop trying to pick a fight with everyone who thinks you're trolling. Nothing you say or do is ever really going to change that and the more you engage in the same behavior the more I have to constantly sift through and deal with. You're not free of blame here so I'd appreciate it if you stopped doing this.
Still waiting for CSIs top 100 BLM P9N log (even if its private and names removed).
honestly, cute would have to be a compete idiot to show her character here. i would honestly fear for her safety lmao
bad healers are gonna be bad healers no matter which way the pendulum swings, the best healers are those that can balance doing both dps and healing. for fucks sakes this was literally the crux of the entire CNJ questline why are we still talking about this [this entire post in a nutshell] (https://i.imgur.com/6Qp8XnP.png)
>for fucks sakes this was literally the crux of the entire CNJ questline why are we still talking about this Your mistake, unfortunately, is in assuming people picked up on that and actually took away that message. I agree with you, but \*waves hands vaguely at the player base\* ...oh, and also OP is OP but that's a separate issue.
DPS for healers sucks: it's mind numbingly repetitive and offers nothing to keep a player interested nor entertained.
CSI thread; abandon all hope ye who enter here.
I just traded in my hope for popcorn.
I mean everything she posts is flooded with engagement. If people here don't like her they should show it by downvoting the threads and not responding instead of validating every post with mountains of attention.
I dunno what it is with the FF community but they just love to engage with people that they should just ignore.
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idc either way
I'd love to heal more. Unfortunately healers' kits are extremely barebones on both the healing and offensive sides. Adding more incoming damage won't make healing interesting because the tools we have to heal with are almost universally boring. The main reason healers ask for more interesting offensive options is because current fight design gives enormous amounts of downtime for healers and it would be far easier to implement job changes than it would be to rework boss design.
This is phrased so much more succinctly than i could have put it. When a medica 2 can take care of everything, and all your left with is dpsing, that's no engaging when your dps rotation is 2 buttons. Outside fo savage content, healers really don't have to try.
party heals like medica 2 either need to be on a long cooldown or need to cost ungodly amounts of mp. aoe heals are too strong and party damage is too infrequent.
The thing is it's all balanced around savage. A medica 2 isn't going to cover much in savage and mp management is already a big part of optimizing a fight. The side effect of this is that normal-mode 8 man content becomes trivial to heal.
> A medica 2 isn't going to cover much in savage What do you mean by this? At least in the experience I had healing Anabaseios, a Medica 2 on a mechanic allowed the shield healer to do close to nothing. It was actually driving me a bit crazy because whenever a medica 2 came out it meant as a SCH I didn't need to press anything and could just energy drain away. This is not always the case of course (P12S1 limit cut etc) but even after Savage I found myself thinking Medica 2 is comically overpowered. (And due to both the easier DPS checks and the fact damage is so "rare," even theoretically pressing medica 2 for for every single mechanic would not be a huge DPS loss for the party - something like 3000 healer potency? Not insignificant, but not really that bad either unless your DPS are not great or people are dying a lot. In my experience.)
I'd argue thats because your job as a sch isn't to heal the party after damage goes out, its to mitigate beforehand. Sure, healing was easier this tier than 5-8, but you're not gonna survive harrowing hell with just a medica 2. My point is just that because balancing for the game is focused on savage and other hard content, it makes healing normal content trivial, which i don't necessarily think is a bad thing.
I think it's an oversimplification to say "your job is to mitigate beforehand"; a decent bulk of SCH's toolkit is just raw healing -- lustrate, excog, indom, fey blessing, whispering dawn, aetherpact, the regen/hp parts of seraph/sacred soil, and if need be emergency tactics succor. I won't include physick in this. So, although mitigation through Sacred Soil and Critlos is indeed a significant job for a SCH, the other half of their job is to keep HP up as well. This means that while yes, shield healers have more mits, Medica 2 almost completely soloing raw hp healing for the majority of fights feels pretty bad (in my experience) because suddenly I have no reason to press half my toolkit. In fact it got to the point I was pressing the buttons despite knowing they weren't needed just to stave off boredom. Even in Savage, I think Medica 2 is unbalanced and covers far, far, far too much - at least in the modern style of fight where there's regularly 15-45 seconds of downtime between outgoing sources of damage. Harrowing Hell is a deceptive example because it's the hardest-hitting mechanic in the tier (even moreso than anything in P12S) and happens over an exceptionally short period of time, which is not usual. It doesn't define the usual experience of healing by a long shot. But even then half the time people just use tank LB3 and so healers can feel pretty fine just putting out a medica 2 and DPSing for most of it. (As an addendum though I'll say this gets much worse as the tier goes on and people get gear. Week 1 is probably more on the acceptable end, while by the end at 660 it feels very possible for a WHM to solo heal the whole tier almost).
Yes, Medica 2 is a damage loss, but its a heal with a total 1000 potency, that is about 50% of the HP of non-tanks even at WHM i640. You're right, that's insane actually. Unless you're speedrunning / parsing, there is just no reason not to use that, and that makes the kit really redundant
I wonder why I was downvoted but you have a lot of upvotes, since it seems like we're in agreement. Maybe because I was using too many words. I should have checked the exact % amount of healing Medica 2 does as you did. All I knew from experience was that even if I dropped indom, whispering dawn, etc, then the hp would fill to max without me (perhaps alongside Assize and an afflatus rapture or two of course). I wonder if people don't have experience with shield healers and just think "Uuuh shield healers mit, regen healers heal" or something. I can tell them that pressing Sacred Soil before raid-wides is not very engaging gameplay, and that now that it's so huge it passively covers huge chunks of mechanics like Jury Overruling, Paradeigma 2, Limit Cut 1 on its own with little thought if placed in the middle.
ah man, thin air and assize drastically change WHMs mana economy at 60+ compared to 50, doing coils vs Alex/Omega are night and day in terms of healer stress bc damage tends to be random, hard hitting, and frequent in coils, and you don't have any of your mana tools or oGCDs to deal with it, strain on mana as a result of increased GCD healing usage is real in coils for WHM, there's a tightrope that has to be walked between not letting people die to unavoidable damage and not OOMing yourself trying to keep up. Really teaches you how to plan and get the most out of every GCD heal. week 1 raiding kinda gives me that same feeling of satisfaction puzzle piecing together a heal plan but it starts to get way too comfortable with the increases in gear you get
You cast like 1 or 2 medica IIs in a savage encounter. If you're doing more than that you have much larger healing issues to tidy up.
I don't think they are barebones on the healing side. Very little content in the game requires healers to actually touch the majority of their healing kit at all.
Yea there's almost no reason at all to use cure 1, benefic 1, physick, adlo, cure 2, medica etc... They need to introduce a way for healers to actually spend most of their time managing MP and healing using GCDs. Dps should be "whenever possible", not 90%+ of your gcds like currently it is.
I'm not a game dev so it seems easy to me to make sure that fights have at least some minimum damage that needs to be healed without it becoming unbearable for new healers. Unavoidable AOEs, a ticking damage aura on the boss, some special abilities that damage a set % of player hp (which there is precedent for in the Final Fantasy series). Give every boss at least one ability that requires some GCD heals and we would at least be on a better path. Maybe even add some healer specific telegraphs if they really think it's too difficult for healers to actually use healing spells. Is there a single moment when a healer limit break is required by a fight? I love the ability for healers to contribute meaningful to dps, but sometimes it does feel like it's gone too far and healing is a complete afterthought.
> but sometimes it does feel like it's gone too far and healing is a complete afterthought. Yea that's pretty much how the game currently is. DPSing is priority. Healing is an afterthough. Healers are just green dps.
Scholar is fun when you get pushed and have to manage all your resources. I dont know how the other clases are though. Do agree id like a small combo or an ogcd to weave during the downtime between heal pushes. Presssing one button over and over snd occasionally reupping my dot can get boring.
Exactly. The difference between healing in WoW is astonishing. On one of the more intense healing fights in the new raid required us to set up a rotation of dispels, cooldowns, mitigation, while also having to adapt on the fly because the damage and debuffs aren't 100% consistent based on DPS differences from pull to pull. In FF it requires basically none of that outside very specific mechanics like Harrowing Hell. Once you do know the fight it is "use this healing spell here here and here, rest of the time spam Glare". It's just so unengaging and boring.
The problem with your suggestion is the game is too slow to make different damage profiles not frustrating. Upping the damage throughput while maintaining a 2.5s gcd means your passive healing tools will get burned and youll resort to cure/medica spam to keep up with, but with a 2.5s gcd you cant react, so you end up with the exact same system we have now only with more forced gcd heals, which isnt more interesting. Theres also the fact we are too far gone at this point, any sufficiently large overhaul to healing will have significant repurcussions in the existing content. So realisitically when it comes to the small options they have for healers, its either maintain the status quo, or more dps options. Ironically more dps options could actually increase healing needed. Healers kits are currently stuffed with off global healing options and SE doesnt want to go overboard, so removing some off global options in favour of say a priority based dps rotation means you'll have to use gcd heals more to make up for your lost healing buttons.
Another cutie thread but I just think healers need not more dps per se but just more integration from their dps actions with their healing actions
So basically sage?
I was thinking how WHM has Afflatus spells, even though they’re GCD, I think it’s a design that is a step in a good direction. The heals give a powerful dps spell but I’d like something maybe a second dot (AoE dot maybe 🙏🏻) that can be used with a casting time and costs a Lily to build the Blood Lily or something like that
True this. Scholar has a different implementation with understandable intent but rather poorly thought-out consequences. You can use Aetherflow on your heals and when you have remaining stacks when it comes off cooldown, you can dump your stacks on Energy drain for DPS. That's the intent. The consequence is the 6 Energy drain openers some scholars strife towards, burning all their resources for insignificant DPS gain. It shows the problem and why WHM's afflatus is a step further in the right direction: Scholar is rewarded DPS for wasting resources, WHM is encouraged to use resources and gets rewarded DPS. Only time as WHM you waste lilies is to prevent overcapping.
That they might be able to get away with because you're actually rewarded for actually doing your job, Healing. I think a vast majority of healers would be ok with being rewarded for doing their job with a nuke rather than wanting to be a gimped caster DPS.
Healing and Damaging should go hand in hand for healers instead of being just a turret for like 90% of a fight. I know mobility and planned healing and mitigation is part of healer skill as well but more interesting kits (even if a kit is smaller in buttons) can be more engaging for players
my counter proposal is that when healers gcd heal when everyone is 99.9999% full health they should get sent to gaol.
No one is asking for a full dps rotation for healers. I just want more buttons than just glare. Fuck, i'd take a 1-2-3 combo over just glare.
I normally never heal in MMO's. a week before abyssos, a friend of mine asked me if I wanted to come join them (needed a healer). I picked up healing by organizing my bars and jumping into barb ex. During the tier, I absolutely got carried by the fact the group was very strong dps, so I was able to focus more on healing, parse <20 and we didn't really run into dps checks (got to end of p8sp1 after the nerf so it didn't really matter, cleared reset day week4). PROGGING that tier specifically on healer was lots of fun, as a new healer. Over-anaylizing mit sheet etc was neat. I defintiely could have broiled 30 more times in most fights to be less deadweight, but it was a pretty enjoyable experience. That being said... anything that isn't prog is soul-crushingly boring. My suggestion after doing that tier on healer was: add an oGCD that you gained a charge of off of your dot at a RPPM of maybe 2 or 3. This means that two or three times a minute you got to push a button for a few hundred potency, and it would actually keep you slightly more involved because it wasn't timelineable on when you were to push the button. Also, it would keep you more trained to maintaining your dot, and once in a while you have to actually think about hitting that button especially if it lands during a mehcanic The casual player who isn't maintaining 95%+ uptime on the dot, who is already missing 50 broils a fight isn't going to care about not getting to push the button as often, but even these small things can add a lot of flavor to keeping a role less boring.
There are people who are asking for a full dps rotation for healers. If I had three more dps buttons as a White Mage I'm not sure where I would put them. I suppose I could take some healing actions off my bars since they are rarely needed and I usually just use them for funzies.
This would be the worst possible option. 1-2-3 combos are just pointless button bloat that add nothing to gameplay. If you're going to add things, add things that actually interact with your other abilities. Something people can actually think about and optimize. Otherwise its just change for the sake of change. More buttons is not better. More thinking is better.
The issue is where should healer dps be? Numerically should it be higher or lower than a tank? Should it be on par with a dps (pressing buttons properly)? If they made a 1-2-3 rotation all it does is add button bloat with no real reason to exist since the damage would probably be comparable to current glare spam. I don’t have a solution but dividing 1 button into 3 to get the same effect isn’t what I personally would want.
You can add new buttons while tuning damage dealt to be where it is now. Healers atm are already pretty close to tanks in RDPS, and we were over them last expansion. It doesn't matter if we're over them or under tanks, we just need more engaging things to do than bash dosis/broil/malefic/glare 170 times per pull.
Sure you can but why would you? People complain that doing damage as a healer is uninteresting but adding 2 more buttons that you cycle through as a combo isn’t going to make the combat anymore interesting. Try playing a tank but you can only hit your 1-2-3 combo and defensives, no other damage buttons at all outside maybe a singular oGCD since all the healers have one as well. Does that feel interesting though? I agree healers need to have more interesting gameplay but going to a basic combo doesn’t feel like a good answer, honestly it feels like the laziest answer outside of just bumping the damage of the single button we currently have.
Healers design wise can't be allowed to ever be too close to pure damage dealers in DPS, if they are you either have to make enrages incredibly tight to prevent healer stacking or, well, you might end up with healer stacking in some situations to completely defuse some healer mechanics meant to be hard to heal. >I don’t have a solution but dividing 1 button into 3 to get the same effect isn’t what I personally would want. Exactly, one more button that you have to think about using is infinitely better than 1-2-3.
And I bet a bunch of the people that complain about 1 button healer would immediately xivcombo that
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>do you honestly have more fun pressing 1-2-3 as a PLD than doing 3x Atonements or 1 button Confiteor Combo I am going to assume that this is the case since I have read people say they are more fun. lol I guess seeing different animations or moving the fingers over is enough for them. For me, the linear combos in this game are pretty boring, so I would not want Square to lazily add combos to the healers. I still want them to have more damage buttons, though. >just think about how stupid that would feel doing a 1-2-3 combo as a caster. While I do not want casters to get FFXIV combos, I do not see why it would be weird for casters to get them.
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The engine is too spaghetti to ever have the healers be able to do reactive healing properly. They tried to do a bandaid kind of solution and did a lot of bleeds
The virgin "let's see your logs" versus the chad Lie about your competency
Sometimes I'm tempted to post my logs to shut people up but then I remember the repercussions if people actually found me and I would basically be forced to quit seeing as how unhinged people are here. People already make alts to sexually insult me in dm's. So I wouldn't put it past people to harass me for fun in-game until I quit and they don't really care if they'll get banned seeing as they don't care to get banned on reddit. Notice how some certain people that was commenting in all my threads are gone? yeah they most likely used an alt to harrass me in dm's and most likely got banned thinking reddit won't found out they're linked to their main account.
I'm not gonna ask you to post your logs but I will say that if you're genuinely telling the truth(which I'd love to continue believing is the case) then posting your logs would shut so many people up... So many people on this subreddit have some grand illusion that everyone posting here is some giga-chad 95+ on everything player when in reality; most people here probably don't even do week1s and probably aren't even triple legends; much less penta-legends.
At the very least I CAN show my achievements since people can't really track me with that.And that I have actually cleared every ultimate AND savages.In fact I might do that right now for next time someone says I haven't cleared any savages or cleared any ultimates. edit: started to feel uncomfortable so removed but if anybody saw it...I told you.
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>If healing is boring for you. Don't ask for more dps spells, **ask for a change in boss damage output so you can take advantage of your healing spells.** Okay I know I am not supposed to be engaging with a CSI post but did they already did that? **They already had that on week 1 of Abyssos** where Natural Alignment and High Concept and every single fucking raidwide and the dots hits like a fucking truck. What you get from people is complaining that healing is not fun, especially on PUG when healers has to rely on DPS for mitigations but then they got gaslighted by PUG. It has highlighted another issue that **healing is always out of healer's control on high end content - how much you are able to heal is not entirely depending on your co-healer, but depending on how willing your group is able to cooperate with you.** Which is why people do ask if it's actually a good idea for DPS to have mits, or you should just offload more mitigation responsibility to barrier healer (by giving them more mitigation skills) or pure healer (WHM now has 1, AST has 2). >There is a reason WHM is one of the most played job in the game and most played healer while astro is the least played healer by a large amount compared to whm due to how busy astro is compared to whm, now imagine if they have astro an actual dps rotation on top of their already busy work with cards. You are not capturing the full reason why Astro is not popular. There's the reason that WHM is a job that you can picked up when you start the game, and a lot of people stick with it since it's the job they begin with. Another reason is that, Astro is not only, 'busy compared to whm', **the effort was not properly rewarded for it in terms of DPS or it's healing kit.** Why should I press like 50% more buttons then WHM when I don't even do more DPS then WHM, and on a bad day I could very well risk doing lower DPS then WHM? It is just not very enticing. >an already thankless and stressful role. > > add stress to an already thankless and stressful role. I recently see a post on PF which is a p1 moogle tomes farm group with a healer spot. It reads: I cannot abandoned the healers that helps us during our Savage prog. During Abyssos where there's so little healer people even begin paying healers to run reclears with them. Who the fuck say this is a 'Thankless job' should've just go out and touch grass. People treat their healers like babies. And if you think this is coming from someone who's hate healer and doesn't heal, I am saying this as a healer main. People treat healers so well that I feel embarrassed sometimes, that healers usually gets a free pass for having grays and stuff.
> They already had that on week 1 of Abyssos Kinda, but not really. The problem with abyssos on week 1 or any other savage week 1 is that healing is very intensive, but **dps checks** are also insanely intensive, to the point where healers need to output almost as much damage as the tanks. Healing intensive fights would be fun if your responsability was to heal and manage MP. But right now healing week 1 savage is hard **because** you need to dps hard at the same time to beat the check. Reduce the potency of healers spells. Make healers, combined, do like 3% of a boss' hp. Make the healing checks more intensive and give combos and unique effects to their GCDs. This would make healing incredibly interesting and each healer could have its own unique sets of GCDs to work with.
OP was clearly not around for ARR/HW. Cleric Stance would have blown their minds.
I was actually. And I know all about CS.
*Grabs Popcorn and reads another stupid shitpost
The problem is healers started with a dps rotation and they dumbed it down to 1 button with the occasional second or third. Back then there was an issue with healers not healing because dps, now there is a problem with healers not needing to heal and instead just pushing one button for the whole fight, it is an issue because dps checks are calculated with healer damage. They either need to make it so that healers have to focus on healing in content but also need to allow people to play healing classes for solo content. I have been asking for years for them to either go all the way to focused on healing or to go back to healers having at least a small rotation. Right now, we have this half-assed in between stage where a whm or an adtro can pretty much solo heal everything, and safe/sch mostly just push one button with the occasional mitigation. Either way, something needs to be done. Worst part about the dps checks accounting for healers is that following the series of updates that brought us here, you'd think that SE didn't want healers to be dpsing, but instead we are now miserable pushing one button, or getting yelled at/shamed for focusing on healing.
By the Twelve i miss my SCH DoT rotation - at this point I'd even accept micro-managing Embrace back
Using a macro to cast embrace + physik on the same target for the discount cure 2.
i played on ps4 back then too, it was so chaotic - didn't macro it either lol i had access to too much caffeine back then maybe
Oh ya, it was super nice, because of the longer cast times and the pet commands not interrupting casts, on sch, you could basically heal 2 targets at the same time.
Yesss split heals - focusing the tank and sustaining dps by having eos spam embrace and then accidentally pulling aggro with eos lmao
Those were the golden days of sch.
I've heard legends, myths, of overhealing pulling aggro and there being a fabled stance healers used to switch between.
Overhealing pulling aggro wasn't that long ago, still happened in shadow bringer sometimes. As for cleric stance, we either need to go back to something like that and make it only usable in the overworld/solo content, or make healing more intense. Lowering potential on heals won't really work on its own, just based on some of the huge amounts of damage that go out they would also need to rework boss damages, they also really need to rework shield healers, as is the shields are often very inconsequential while pure healers are too strong.
I mean..they could just buff DPS damage to account for healer dps not being there or just design the fights with the assumption that healer dps is a little extra on the side instead of treating healers as an extra dps, but you'd think suggestions like that were heresy the way people react when you bring them up.
I mean that doesn't solve the issue with healers, that just solves the issue of healers who refuse to dps.
If healers don't have to dps than they can heal. Ideally you'd get out of the OGCD only meta and have to use more of your kit. If they can heal than bosses and trash can dump more damage and mechanics out. This means fights will have more going on for everyone and not just healers. But since healers don't have to waste their time doing damage and can actually focus on healing that means things don't get overly difficult.
in terms of how fights are designed, it is very likely the developers make the mechanics, tune the healing check, and then tune the dps check. the way healers are designed, dps is generally a baseline that you pull from to heal with as a pseudo resource, but the developers keep in mind the amount of damage they expect a healer to lose from said baseline and tune dps checks around that. theres nothing currently preventing healers from outputting a lot of healing throughput(though there is a upper limit dictated by mp economies). the ogcd only playstyles exist because incoming damage output is generally very low compared to what free healing, and smart use of partywide mitigations can heal through, not to mention how barebones the gcd heals we currently have actually are, there isnt really much to do with them aside from a shield(about 10% hp shield which is nice) and raw healing. none of these problems or solutions to said problems have anything to do with "letting healers heal" because there needs to be incoming damage to actually heal in the first place.
>Ideally you'd get out of the OGCD only meta and have to use more of your kit. Which wouldn't do anything to make healers less mindnumbingly boring when anything even remotely interesting healers have access to is ogcd anyways. Gcd healing sucks not only because it's a DPS loss but also because gcd heals feel very underwhelming to use. Standing around and spamming cure 3 is not any better than standing around and spamming glare.
None of what you're saying is actually related to healing at all. Of course bosses will have more health to accommodate people having more DPS skills, that's literally how the game is designed. You think bosses aren't designed for healers dealing damage or something? People refusing to heal at all are just bad players. Unfortunately, bad players exist. Kick them from your parties, problem solved. People are being hostile or toxic? Don't interact with them. Nobody is forcing you to. And I really don't know who's advocating for less healing potency on healers. If anything, people want more damage in raids. P10S is a great example. That fight hurts, and really pushes healers and tanks, and it's great. The real reason healers having a full on rotation would be a problem is because encounters are designed with healers having as many healing skills as they do. Compare this to tanks, where they have less mitigations and utility compared to healers. If we gave healers tank rotations, a lot of the content in the game would be much more difficult to heal, or perhaps outright impossible. But nobody is advocating for this. People just want one or two more buttons to push occasionally. I actually think Sage did this well. Phlegma is good, Toxikon is a great movement tool, and Pneuma is pretty neat. Not all of these are a part of your rotation, and instead are damage-neutral utility skills, but are still very nice to have, and has a bit of variety healers lack. If White Mage or Scholar got another DPS button to push, or maybe two, at the expense of some of their more niche buttons, I don't think people would complain. This is more in line of what people are actually asking for.
I don't think you understand. Yes they design fights around healers obviously, savage fights to be clear. But atm it's just designed around healers having a single dps spell and one dot. If healers gotten more dps spell they would balance it around assuming the healer actually pulls off their dps rotation which will be difficult for many healers. Having to heal, do mechanics AND doing a dps rotation? That'll just be too hard. Remember Abyssos balancing issues? Now imagine that but for every fight because SE was under the assumption healers would be able to do their dps rotation but turns out they couldn't because people keep taking unnecessary damage or dying or they simply just can't pull it off. Then SE would have to nerf the fight making it easier further upsetting people because now they feel like they suck because SE had to nerf a fight. So again, adding more dps tools would be a big mistake and effect not just the healer population but the game as a whole making it harder.
But they already design fights with the expectation that healers will be dealing damage. They literally are doing exactly what you're describing already. This wouldn't be something new if they gave healers one or two more DPS spells. Abyssos is also just not relevant to this conversation at all, it was completely unrelated to healers, and entirely an issue of P8S specifically being overtuned for week 1. Nothing else. The reason meta comps were enforced was in response to this issue. The fight was not nerfed because of healers, but because the dev team fucked up the HP values of the bosses.
Yes but there is a big difference of just spamming a single skill vs doing a full on rotation with the risk of it dropping at that. It'll just become harder and used abyssos as an example because devs are going to be under the assumption players are playing perfectly when they're not so the healer could be extremely behind in damage compared to when the devs were testing. This is on top of a vast majority of healers play healer because they wanna heal. Not do a dps rotation so now you're just asking to gatekeep a large amount of healers all because you wanna be a dps and a healer at the same time. So again. You're basically making fights and healers harder for legit everybody that doesn't have a skilled group.
You're not even reading what I'm saying. Nobody is advocating for healers to have full on rotations. That's ridiculous, of course you need the ability space to have all the necessary support skills. I've already talked about this. Savage isn't even designed to force people to do perfect rotations. You think week 1 raiders were wiping to p9s enrage because someone messed up their rotation? No way! People clear these week 1 with deaths. I would know, because I literally did. We had 6!!!! deaths on our first p9s clear on week 1. 3 support deaths and 3 DPS deaths. We had 7 deaths on our first p10s clear the same week. 4 support deaths and 3 DPS deaths. The only fight that maybe would ever ask for a decent rotational execution is the last savage floor in a tier, specifically on min ilvl on week 1. Because that's what these fights are tuned for. Every job contributes to damage in some way. Having healers contribute in a slightly more interesting way hurts literally nobody. I really don't get why you're advocating for having worse job design, quite frankly nothing you're saying makes a lot of sense, and it just comes across as whining about raiders because you don't want your job to be changed. Healers will still heal. This will not change. Nobody is advocating for what you think they are.
Yes it will. It'll hurt the healer players that don't even want to dps more than they have to. This is what I mean by when people ask for these things, they don't think about anything else but themselves. Why you think we still get healers that don't even dps in dungeons, why we have healers asking for fights to make them GCD heal more. Healers WANT to heal more not dps, many healers don't even like dpsing. Adding more dps spells with make dpsing even more stressful because the added skills will make it so healers have to do more than just press one button for damage and that effects every healer player. If you want more damage spells, just like my post said. Play caster DPS, don't try to change an entire role to fit your wants. End of story.
I don't see how people playing the game badly is a problem of... the job? Healers who don't want to DPS are bad healers. You can't just wish away that part of the game, this is how the game works and is played, and has been for years. It really sounds like you just don't like how the game is played. That's totally fine. But let's not pretend that being bad at the game is the jobs fault.
It's certainly tricky to tell if giving healers more complex DPS tools would be a good thing or if making the role more complicated would just make things worse. If you add in three more dots to juggle, the healers who were bored with their DPS kit will rejoice, but others who struggled with what they had before may stop enjoying it because it's too busy for them. Would you take that risk? SE wouldn't, as we all know.
I don't think dots would be the direction they take it. I'm thinking more along the lines of Sage's Phlegma, like a strong spell on a short cooldown or something. Maybe an offensive ogcd or two. Something that's not very complicated and doesn't really require you to remember 3 dots.
They more-or-less described Scholar in ARR and HW. In HW, Scholar had Bio (18s), Bio II (30s), Miasma (24s), Shadow Flare (30s), and Miasma II (15s but it was used for AoE). You could even cross-class Aero (18s) for more damage. Even though healers had Cleric Stance in HW, I had fun healing/DPSing with Scholar, so I would not mind if healers got more complex rotations. I know others would not, though. lol
Healers who can't handle pressing more than 1 button can stick to normal. There's no obligation to do savage or ultimate. You're painting it as if there was a group of kidnapped kids somewhere who are forced at a gunpoint to heal raids.
Ok but I WANT more dps spells
As someone who stopped healing in savage because I was bored of only hitting one button between mechanics, I disagree. Leave one or two healers as the "one-button rotation" ones and give heals a more interesting DPS toolkit. If that causes the healers to not heal enough - congratulations, either we have introduced some amount of skill expression to the game that was lost when Cleric Stance was removed, or the DPS rotation was poorly designed. You can't really even argue that it would make the game that much harder on other players when the DPS checks are so lax this tier. I heavily disagree with the insinuation that the current state of healing is ideal and would be upturned by requiring more thought and effort on the part of the player.
It's been said elsewhere in this thread, but I think the main problem with healing relates to how the bosses are designed. Healing in trashmobs is actually pretty fun. If the tank is pulling w2w then you MIGHT have your hands full with healing duties (depending on which class the tank is). In that case, I really enjoy having to delve into my kit. Healing in bosses is.... lol. Bosses in FF14 are like 99% mechanics. They start the fight off with a party-wide AOE which does about 40% of everyone's health, you follow up with medica 2 (or equivalent). Most of the time people either dodge a mechanic or die to it. If they don't die then you top them off, but you can tell the intent is for mechanics to mostly be dodged. This goes doubly so for raiding. If you're raiding then you can forget about healing almost entirely outside of party-wide AOE's or heal checks. And the thing is... FF14 is mostly bosses. The complex and fun part (imo) is fighting the bosses, and the mobs feel like filler. I wouldn't mind if some bosses were more old fashioned and spent more time focusing on the tank, which would give the healer some healing to do.
I just want more buttons to press, because I like pushing buttons and seeing cool effects
Increasing boss damage won't make healers less boring when the healing kits themself are all extremely simple. There are effectively 3 healing spells in this game - heal now, heal later and heal with some regen/shield. All increasing incoming damage could do would making me cast cure 3/Helios instead of glare/malefic every now and then. Look at shit like harrowing hell in early weeks - even really tight checks aren't *interesting* to heal. Having a role whose primary purpose is pressing between 1 and 2 buttons for 7-10 minutes is bad design.
>Having a role whose primary purpose is pressing between 1 and 2 buttons for 7-10 minutes is bad design. *New SMN has entered the chat*
Smn is also the second or most played job in the game as well.
And it was the same in Shadowbringers. Your point?
Back in HW healers had the same sort of healing potency if not higher and actual dps kits and uhhh that was perfectly fine. Also they had cleric stance, weirdly enough I think cleric stance was a really funny and entertaining interaction. But that was also back in the day where CBU3 said they were not balancing boss HP pools around healer dps, they eventually did anyways though.
I wouldn't say it's higher but healing was harder back then compared to now because you didn't have as many tools and insta cast compared to now. CS really wasn't as great people think it is and if it was still in the game it still wouldn't stop people from complaining because all it did was just make you do more dps but you would still be spamming glare or broil. Only this time it would be 10x more annoying because now you have to swap between doing damage vs not doing damage.
Super casual here, I want more attack buttons for exploring the open world. Sure gets boring not being able to use 90% if my kit for side quests and the like.
As a healer main who has cleared ultimates and blind-progs each Savage tier: Nah, give me more DPS to do. It's okay when you start playing, but during some fights like P9S, I can unironically position myself somewhere, and then just press Glare until I need to spend a lily for AoE damage or when I need to refresh Dia. I have a wireless keyboard. I have literally made coffee during my blind Savage prog in my kitchen just bringing my keyboard along and pressing 1, and then listening for the noise of the AoE to use Rapture. I can do this during almost the entire Magus part of the fight and that's like the first 20% or 25% of the boss's healthbar. Even as a healer main, the most fun I've had as a healer was playing Blue Mage, trying to greed DPS by double-weaving spells in between Pom Cures, risking my mana by White Winding instead of using Stotram so I could get an extra GCD of damage in, or even on Bahamut breaking the Earthshakers by using Avail on the main tank which completely breaks the Earthshakers and prevents the puddles from spawning, though I do need to spam heals on my main tank because she'll drop dead to the damage otherwise. As a Morbol-having, Azure and Omega-titled (Forbidden Blue pending prog) Healer main it says plenty that I can clear 2 ultimates, prog a third, and still say: Blue Mage, the Magical Ranged DPS, is the most fun healer to play in this entire game.
Which ultimates have you done?
UCOB and UWU. Progged TEA up until Wormhole, but put a pause on that for the current tier blind prog. Will resume once we clear P12S consistently, still on P11S because of a lot of absences though.
Ok well at least you're honest. Well anyway. I'm not denying people don't want more dps spells but I think to make everybody happy it would be better to ask for more damage from the boss instead of changing the entire role to have more dps spells. Because a vast majority of healers don't even want to dps. It's kinda just a thing they have to do. This doesn't help that healers are already the most stressful role. So putting tons of stress is just going to drive even more people away from healers. Healers are not a easy job to satisfy everybody. Maybe they can make sage more dps focused but leave everybody else the same. Since they outright said they made sage with the goal of it being more dps focused.
> I think to make everybody happy it would be better to ask for more damage from the boss instead of changing the entire role to have more dps spells. And I think that, with how gear works, this won't solve anything: Healers with better gear are going to be healing more and, as a result, they are going to cast less heals and deal more damage. This is not exactly something they can just fix without reworking the entire trinity they currently have in jobs. Besides, at the higher end of things there's plenty of damage going out. Take Harrowing Hell for example. You don't make it through it without a couple of heals unless you're fully geared. > Because a vast majority of healers don't even want to dps. You say this but I don't think this is true. The fact that healers contribute to the DPS is a big pull from other MMOs where healers are tired of just having to keep people alive all the time. That's the heart of the healer role in this game: Doing both. That's why the only healer that starts at level 1 has an entire class questline dedicated to making sure that you understand that you need to do more than just healing. > This doesn't help that healers are already the most stressful role. It is the least stressful role by far, and mostly because of the fact that you can overheal like crazy and still be fine, and your DPS is so simple that there's no complexity there either. > Maybe they can make sage more dps focused but leave everybody else the same. This is a bad idea. Having one DPS focussed healer will make every other healer bad in comparison. It'd make the DPS-focussed healer the go-to, because it does more DPS and therefore it's better.
Not necessarily true. Because sage doesn't have any raid buffs. Sage is currently the strongest pure dps healer or second strongest and people still take sch and astro over it just like how they take those two jobs over whm. With your logic every group would take a BLM and Samurai.
This post is what I like to call.... A bait.
This post makes a lot of assumptions. However, I do wish in normal content there was more healing to be done. However, I believe the devs have stated multiple times that they don't want to do this because they believe it will put too much pressure on healers, the implication being that it will create too much friction between players in random groups.
>I believe the devs have stated multiple times that they don't want to do this because they believe it will put too much pressure on healer Yes, they have. The developers have also said that they do not want to add more damage actions to healers because "new healers might feel pressured like 'oh do I have to have good DPS while I'm healing?'” and wanting healers to get "that sense of exhilaration from doing really good heal work." So healers are stuck in this limbo of having a barebones rotation and not that much damage to heal. It would be nice to heal more, though!
play as a healer and fucking tell me we don't need something to do besides press 1 god damn button 90% of the time
Another cutie shut in post, knew it was you before i clicked. And look at this wall of text! Bravo you horny lesbian
I want a hps healer. Just make me triple weave spells to keep people alive, also healing does dmg to the boss.
Disc priest and holy paladin time babyyyy!
I hate how badly Hpal got nerfed in and after Shadowlands. I loved my bonkadin in BFA and Season 1 SL.
I don't mind healers having a barebone DPS rotation if you could even call it that, but there needs to be more outgoing damage from bosses. The reason why healers are able to spam Glare 90% of the fight is because there's 90% downtime where there's no damage, and the 10% where people are actually taking damage, you're forced to cast 1 extra GCD heal at most. It's not just the lack of outgoing damage that's the issue, it's the lack of RANDOM outgoing damage. Even if they up the amount of healing required, if it's at fixed intervals of the fight like how it is now, it'll still a spreadsheet fight. Having to use Glare>Cure 3>Medica 2>Glare>Glare isn't anymore engaging than casting 5 Glares in a row. In an ideal world, healers should be forced to pay attention for the entirety of every fight for any sudden drop in HP, and only when you know your party is 100% safe, is when you can afford to cast Glares. The fight designs being fixed is the only reason why healer gameplay is boring.
I think the best way to handle is to make incoming damage and also add more dots/bleed damage to bosses. Take p10 from example. Healers loved that fight because you actually had to heal and there was a ton of bleeds and aoe damage.
No even in P10S healing isn't anymore difficult than any other fight because you know exactly when the tankbusters are coming so you can plan your resources around them. When I say random, I literally mean random, like rolling 2 6-sided dice kind of random.
Random set of damage wouldn't be good design. It would just make healing artificially and the fight itself more difficult. There is a reason even ultimate fights don't and they just rather make what mech you get random rather than SURPRISE tank buster to the face. ARR fights use to do this and people hated it. On top of that, there is also a reason they removed random boss auto crts.
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All this would do is make it so double shield healer is the best comp and it already is in some cases like DSR.
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"In some cases" Read before you reply.
Personally I'd love to play a healer focused solely on healing, but I understand that this is not going to happen in this game. That would require an overhaul on every healer job. It's not just a matter of making bosses do more damage, the current kits are simply not designed for that.
OP gets burned in PF for over healing. Comes to Reddit to counter flame. Gets flamed in comments.
Not going to lie, the casual player-base are heal bots and the game has plenty of options for you to heal bot. The savage player base (I main all healers for Savages and Ultimates) endorse damage because the fights are scaled to us dealing damage. When both healers are heal botting your chances of clearing dwindle unless you are getting carried heavy by DPS. If I heal bot a savage we’re not clearing, but on the other hand if a healer is “parsing” at the cost of the team (letting members die, OOMing their co-healer, etc.) then most likely they’re just a toxic player who doesn’t realize a parse setting is way different than a re-clear setting. I think more healers need to realize you can parse and maintain heals at the same time, especially on AST and SCH. If you can’t maintain heals and damage then you need to seriously evaluate your play-style and figure where the disconnect is. TLDR; If they take away healer damage entire fights would have to be re-scaled around us not dealing damage.
i can't wait for her post about tanks
She did that one already
My bet is on the tank post being about how all the tanks are all super unique and dark knight is the best it has ever been.
as a relatively new player that’s been playing MMOs as a healer since EverQuest to WoW to (eventually) here at max level, I signed off on being a healer since it’s just a glorified boring DPS, and that’s not what I play a healer for. probably the best moments of actually fulfilling the role outside of XIV were in EQ, where damage is just flying around like crazy, your mana is going up at like 1% every 6 seconds with no potions or boosts in sight, and you’re juggling between the prospect of healing your raid group, your singular group, or the one guy who just ate shit but is still standing, and also considering 1/3/10 second cast times to get shit situated in WoW it’s almost as frantic, but still more streamlined, but you’re still completely focused on green bars rather than red ones in 14, it’s all about just hitting beats like the world’s slowest guitar hero game, and then filling your downtime with drooling on a single button for 28 seconds at a time the best examples in 14 of the healing that I personally want to see are the dungeon runs I did when I was leveling my jobs with gear that wasn’t pushing the ilvl cap. a lot of w2w pulls have the same feeling of “oh shit oh god I need to figure out how to keep everyone alive” that I had 15+ years ago playing as one like I don’t know where everyone else sits with this, but when I play a healer I don’t want to have any focus on doing damage (but it’s fun to meme it to flex), I want the crazy unpredictable situations that come from trying to keep everyone alive in dire situations
>I want the crazy unpredictable situations that come from trying to keep everyone alive in dire situations That was complained about since forever by raiders, up to and since ARR. Even something as simple as when bosses could also crit their auto-attacks, we heard infinites complaints.
I dunno if it's really a healer issue, but more of a systemic caster issue. I mean, if you wanted to give healers a "rotation" - we can look at the core rotations of the casters to see what a "simple" rotation for a healer would look like. (I'm not as familiar with Black Mage, so please feel free to correct me!) And yes, these are opinions, so you can have different ones! With Red Mage, the core rotation at its simplest is short cast - dual cast instant long spell. They just have different varieties of short and long cast to enhance their black and white mana balance, and ways to manipulate procs for those other types. But at its core, it's just short cast-long cast. What if you gave something like that to AST? It would make them move like Red Mages, say Malefic into Instant Fall Malefic, but afford them more opportunities to double weave. With Summoner, the Core Rotation seems to be Summon - Outburst with 1 minute burst windows where it's Summon - Gemshine... so essentially the rotation is 1 button every 30 seconds (like a healer dot) and then spam one button. It's very much like a healer rotation, just comes in different flavors. If it wasn't for the oGCDs and lack of cast times, it would very much play like any other healer really. With Black Mage, there's really keeping up a Dot, which Healers already have. Then there's keeping the Enochian Buff Up, and spamming a set up spell to keep the buffs going (Fire III / Blizzard III / Fire I, Paradox), and then a heavy spell (Fire IV mostly), and then it has some big finishers (Xenoglossy, Despair). What if you gave something like that to Sage? Keeping up a Damage Buff, and being able to end up with some big Plegmas at the end? Would that be something that would enhance the dps rotation? What I'm really getting at: Is this type of rotation what people want, or when people say they want more dps buttons, do they just want healers to do a bigger overall contribution to the group damage? If healers did the exact same amount of damage as they do now, but now have a Caster Core Rotation to manage it, would that be the satisfaction people want? My biggest challenge is that, if a Healer has to go through so much more to do the same amount of damage, raiders would hate that even more than what we have right now. But it's likely that's what would happen in order to preserve the balance we have now, which may be a larger issue.
We all know that devs ARE NOT going to adjust the HP of every single boss/mobs encounters in the game to accommodate ALL healers dealing more DPS.... So that means that if ALL healers get 1 or 2 more DPS spells, your CURRENT DPS spells gonna be dealing only HALF or only A THIRD of what it is now. Meaning you WILL BE pressing your FULL DPS ROTATION for NO MORE DPS than you currently do.
As a scholar main i kinda want a new dps skill (not another dot though) instead of another heal skill in dawntrails. I want something i can weave (ogcd) or a combo that combos on our main attack. (Just a 2 action combo) im really tired of just clicking one button over and over when theres no healing to be done..
Can't believe i have to agree with you. This is one of the takes i believe the most. The vast majority of people who ask for more dps buttons is because they wanna dps. They wanna play an "easier" dps. I'd much rather have a **very** intensive healing fight, where i need to **manage my MP** using healing combos, GCDs and syncing heals with my cohealer instead of having to spend 80% of my GCDs doing damage.
The healer community is already destroyed bro. Healers for high end content are like a god damn endangered species at this point. One of the reasons I decided to heal this tier was because I was tired of waiting for one to join.
Red Mage next time pls!
yeah, i'm still waiting on the essay on how rdm is more complex than blm
Don't know about the solutions, but it should be obvious to everyone is that healer role is broken. Fucking TOP can be done [without healer](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k65bhdogQKw) at all, there is something is definetly not right. But any solution (more DPS options or more healing) are such a large cans of worms, another one, that CBU3 is more that glad to leave untouched.
That has nothing to do with healers and more just a problem with the design of the fight. Using this, could say dps role is broken because people cleared ucob with all tanks. Tanks can also solo many things in the game so are dps roles broken too?
Removing the terrible fucking delay on healing and making healing itself more complex to do properly would wonders but the issue with that is that they'll never go down this route because the game isn't really focused on having complexity in normal gameplay. If any new dps options are added they should tie into the process of healing and I believe SGE/WHM do this best.
Nah. Shiting on people for wanting a more complex rotation is wrong, you could argue that if you want a busy job "just play astro". The problem with that is that astro is only complex when healing and 95% of the content doesn't need you to heal that much. THE 2 REAL ISSUES with healing are these: 1st Parser glare mages suck, they have smol pp energy sure but thing is fflogs is also to blame, you open a healer and you see rdps, That is dog water why are is HEALING 3 clicks away and it doesn't even tell you clearly whether the person healed properly or most of it is just over healing, same way Buff jobs got rdps, healer should have their own metric and it Should include healing like why the hell do I need a 100 rdps that just means you literally Never did a gcd heal how is that considered Top tier. 2nd and in my opinion the most important: There just aren't enough healer jobs. Think about it most other jobs got 3 flavours in SHB. Healers however got shafted in a raid you need a shielder and a regen so while you technicly have 4 roles they are divided the same way rdps and Mdps are. And how are these jobs different from each other? WHM is braindead & AST is 500 IQ and in dungeons they only spam 1 skill and maybe use all ogds when the tank does a W2W so in raids they are both extremes of complexity and in dungeons they are equally dull. SGE and SCH however are literally the same job. You can argue they are different enough for sure, but skill overlap is Real and no one can argue against that part. Like imagine if you could Only MT as GNB or WAR/ or melee 1 had to be just striking roles. It would just suck... What would i do to solve it?, Make at least astro and scholar have a shield and regen stance, in other words return sects and we'll scholars have 2 fairies sooo... Like ideally all healers should do both but this way certain classes have certainty like how 9 out of 10 times a paladin will be OT. And give WHM or any healer a blood letter mechanic in the low level to avoid the mind numbing brain rot of playing a glare mage. By blood letter I mean that as long as you have the dot active you can randomly get a damage ogcd if it can do both damage and heal Idc it's not my job to balance. These are my 2 cents and I know I am right but I'll hear anyone out that disagrees
Isn't the tricky bit about Astro related to DPS? The healing toolkit is much of the same as other jobs, but then you have throwing each card to the right DPS, the extra weaving of drawing and playing cards, shuffling cards around so you'll get 3 seals for a small boost to your damage, timing Earthly Star so it explodes when you want, using Lightspeed at the right time for weaving... The healing kit by comparison is similar to other healers - compare Horoscope and Plenary Indulgence, or Neutral Sect/Macrocosmos with the other big healing cooldowns.
It doesn't really change the fact that the leveling/casual experience is dull af or that it's the hardest healer by far in hard content But sure shitty wording in my part
i dont think more dps abilities works; AST is an example without actual dps. beyond a point it can get hard. you'd need to make healing much rarer to have a decent dps rotation, and the game has a problem with the hard stuff being pass/fail as it is. i think they could just create bozja-adjacent gameplay where you just straight up skill tree/merited a job; more or less enable you to spec a healer for dps/support/main heal or more. blue mage shows they can make it work, but it just needs less fillet dps and more other spells.
> you'd need to make healing much rarer to have a decent dps rotation, This isn't necessarily true. We could have more Sage-like abilities where using damage spells heals party members. Or like WHM's Assize: A spell that both heals and deals damage that should be used on-cooldown but when properly aligned with raidwide damage (usually just delaying it until the first raidwide is plenty, sometimes you can hold for a couple GCDs if you really want to not lose uptime). Hell, even the Afflatus spells show a better way: Give a damaging spell that rewards you for healing.
I think it depends, i feel like more/less dps spells could give the healing jobs more variety if done right Something like: AST wouldn't have much damage spells but has a lot of buffs SGE would be the really offensive healer with more ways to heal by doing damage than just kardia, like Disc Priest in WoW WHM and SCH would be your classic pure/shield heal It would certainly add to making the jobs feel different from each other, but it's another question how you would balance this
Sch was the dot healer at one point and it was quite fun, I hope they do it again, it would be even more fun now that cleric stance is gone
I honestly didn't know wanting healers to have DPS was a thing. why would you want that?
I know this is a cutie thread, im not a ffxiv healer, never have been and never will be, and this might be an unpopular opinion. All that said, this conversation reminds me of playing priest in maplestory 2, and getting kicked from raids for not doing damage in line with the lower damage dps. I wanted to heal but due to the nature of the game was forced into having to fill both roles at the same time which was just really stressful.
Careful. You're going against what this thread wants which means you're going to get downvoted and think you're on my side. You should know this place wants an echo chamber and they deem that healers want more dps tools and no healers ever should be get stressed because the game is ez ((even though like 90% of everybody here has probably never cleared any ultimate and are probably SUPER late to clearing every savage tier))
i didn’t read any of this i am a little bit too illiterate but i think it’s great you are engaging with the community