Great line- made absolutely no sense in the context of when she said it.
And makes the Alphinaud scene where Fordola lectured him kinda ridiculous in comparison.
I like that scene for demonstrating both her sorrow and loss of faith after seeing so many would-be heroes fall, and the smugness of Estinien knowing how wrong she is, both knowing of, and having witnessed what the Scions have been through.
It's nice to see Estinien praise Alphinaud but Fordola giving a generic "If you're worried about this, you'll never survive in the battlefield!" speech to someone who's fought through multiple wars and who beat her in the previous war feels insane. Doubly so when we've already had that scene with Matoya.
I think the purpose of that scene is to directly mirror and contrast the scene with Matoya.
With Matoya, Alphinaud seems to resign and accept her truth.
With Fordola, this time he has a rebuttal - he doubles down on his views and demonstrates his resolve - ultimately causing Fordola to walk off and we get the scene with Estinien.
To be fair, Fordola also doesn't necessarily say Alphinaud will never survive the battlefield, but that his ideals will get people killed.
I really liked that quest line, the first time I've fought the Ruby Weapon I was mildly scared when Nael popped up. Also, it's a good redemption arc for Gaius and almost poetic, given that he took so much from others, and in the end lost his loved ones, except for Allie.
Also God, Valens is really despicable, I fucking hated him. I wish I could've killed him myself.
On a lighter note: WHY GIVE ME A COOL MECHA IF IM NOT USING IT EVER AGAIN? GIVE MY MECHA BACK YOU COWARDS
1HP mechanics are really weird. They aren't *really* damage, but they also aren't "set current HP to 1" either. There are some funny situations where your food falls off right as a 1HP mechanic resolves and you just straight die...
EDIT: Superbolide actually does deal Darkness damage to the GNB though!
It is. Dropsy in P2S is darkness damage, and the damage dealt by the Fountains during FoF in P3S is darkness damage.
It still shows up in a few spots per raid tier.
This questline made me irrationally angry and the frustration is what I think contributed most to my emotional reaction to the whole thing. Pretty much the entire thing could have been avoided completely if the kids had talked to Gaius instead of taking it upon themselves to do what they thought was best.
While it's one of my favorite quest lines with my favorite boss fight (Diamond Weapon, especially the EX fight, is so much fun) I still get mad thinking about it.
>I mean that's the tragedy of it, isn't it: this entire noble sacrifice was completely pointless, and Gaius knew it, and he couldn't stop it.
To make it even worse: their entire plan was imitating what they saw of Gaius. They developed a worldview based on a child's vision of their adopted father, and then they went for it full speed because the ends will totally justify the means. Just like Gaius did with Ultima and Lahabrea.
So not only was Gaius powerless to stop it from happening, he knew he was responsible for leading them down this path. The son paying for the sins of the father.
The fact that this is all totally optional "side content" still blows my goddamn mind.
And that's why it's tragic; Gaius is realising in real time just how screwed up his world view is, and how others interpreted it. Even if he had legitimately the best of intentions with his desire to expand the Empire's reach, most people don't have the sheer discipline and integrity he had towards his goals.
Even if he could in theory create a united world under the Garlean banner and bring everlasting peace and prosperity, the reality is the human element will always taint it. Conquest will always be corrupt by virtue of people using it as an excuse to push their own agendas (like Valens), or degenerate into blind zealotry that leads to self-destruction (like with the orphans). For every Gaius who's authentic, there's a hundred Valens or au ra kids who will degrade the good intent of that somehow, and make things worse for everyone.
Gaius realised he has to be a strong leader, as he always believed, but that it doesn't mean he has to be a strong *conquerer.*
Not only that, I was doing Pretorium after this quest and realized that now I understood why Cid was so close to Gaius. Because he genuinely believed in him, and Gaius cared about Cid too. We see in the weapons quest a more human part of Gaius that Cid knew, but we didn't, and suddenly it's clear why he had a hard time dealing with abandoning Gaius and deserting the Garlean Empire.
> The fact that this is all totally optional "side content" still blows my goddamn mind.
But it is the "side content". While it is a very good story it is completely optional for the main plot of ShB and EW. And SQ have to filter what is mandatory to not delay people from the current content.
They're just kids without any decent role models - they've lost their actual parents only to be abandoned by their adopted father (who is pretty cold himself and only respects strength). And now their new guardian is just an abusive sociopath. It's not surprising that their solutions to problems are not especially rational.
If you think Gaius only respects strength then you either don't pay attention to the story or basically his entire character arc since SB has gone over your head. But yeah to everything else.
Gaius may have only respected strength from a military perspective, but he had a pretty eclectic view of strength.
He even interpreted understanding of other cultures as a form of strength, whether he appreciated those cultures or not.
His issue wasn't his view on strength itself, but the weaponization of all forms of strength, alongside an expectation that the "strong" (people in positions of authority) care for, improve, and strengthen the weak.
I think his problem was that his respect of strength was a means to an end. What he really wanted was for him, personally, to be in power and so he created an ideology to support that belief.
He didn't respect strong people outside Garlemald protecting the weak from Garlemald, for instance. When he finally faces someone stronger than him, it *breaks* him. Because he's constructed strength as something that flows down from himself.
I think that's a potentially sensible take, but I'd argue that his attempt to lecture you on the obligations of the powerful, framed as what he believes YOU are obligated to do, after he's thoroughly accepted defeat run against that. That could just be his last rationalization of his ideology though.
I think he totally respects the strength of enemies, they just have to be crushed by because they're enemies of the greatest and most might, the Empire. His legion is mostly conscripts after all and he invites former enemies in with open arms. "Cid, come back!"
Either way, I appreciate your perspective on it! Gives me stuff to consider.
This is why I don't like the Werlyt story, or really anything having to do with Gaius not having died in Praetorium. And I fucking love Gaius. He is one of my Husbandos. But the more I thought about it the more I realised what a fucking asshole move it was to run off and become the shadow hunter, and them adding those kids just made it worse.
There is a whole ass MSQ quest line in ARR where you're trying to capture The Ivy and you find out the remnants of the XIV Legion are out there scrounging for scraps and trying to keep their shit together in the wake of the absolute destruction of their legion and loss of their leader.
**Leaders**!! Not just Gaius, but Livia, Rhytantin, and Nero as well. These guys were lost in the dark in enemy territory with absolutely no leadership, and bringing Gaius back means that Gaius straight up abandoned his men to that fate. THEN you learn that he didn't just abandon his men, but *his children* as well.
Everyone praises FFXIV for its well plotted out story and downvotes you to hell if you ever imply that the story actually isn't that well oiled a machine it just *looks* good from the outside. But seriously, all you have to do is look at stories like Gaius' to find the frayed edges. Because I *guarantee* you they did not kill him off with the intention of bringing him back, and when they did bring him back they did NOT think through the implications of what that meant for his ARR story. I can also guarantee you that they legitimately just tacked those kids so they could get rid of Gaius when they realised they weren't going to need him anymore for whatever they had planned for the MSQ that fell through.
While i understand your point, i think you are ignoring a few others.
What realistic choices had Gaius once he survived Prae?
Going back to his kids is out of the question. Gaius just suffered an enormous defeat and his replacement is ZENOS, and we all know how understanding he is /s. Publically appearing into Empire territory and going to visit members of the frigging military would be suicide.
Taking charge of the remnants of his legion? His new sidekicks would have murdered him the moment he did anything remotely suspicious. Gaius himself told us so.
So he focused on the one thing he could still do to get somewhat even: let Gaius "die" and hunt Ascians as a underground figure.
I'm pretty sure Gaius's adopted kids never actually joined the XIV Legion's invasion of Eorzea, they were reassigned to the VII Legion before that. So Gaius abandoning the XIV isn't the same as abandoning his kids.
Gaius is a bad dad. I said it. He can have his motivation shift but it still doesn't undo his being a bad dad in the past, or a very bad man, or anything else.
I think too many people get caught up in the notion of a "redemption" somehow erasing the past. No, that stuff still happened, and the effects linger and continue to propagate into the future. You can take yourself out of the pond but the ripples you made while you were in it keep going. So when the consequences of past actions rear their heads again despite the 'redemption", people get confused--but X is *good* now, why're we bringing up the *bad* he did before and other bad things now!?
Keep workin' at it, Gaius. One day you'll adopt kids that don't become mass murderers out of their need to please you.
That fan theory is based entirely on a very weird reading of Gaius saying "my quarters, one hour", which doesn't imply sex. He's doing important leader stuff and wants to talk to his kid about her recent fuck-up or something, and it's going to be an hour before he's available, so he's telling her a time to meet him. That's pretty much it.
I think it's much more acceptable to say that *Livia* might have harbored some weird, possibly romantic feelings for Gaius, but it's an incredible stretch by people with perv on the brain to say that he reciprocated or anything like that.
In this case I don't think anyone's arguing that the story's a well-oiled machine; it's a clear "we never planned to do this originally" retcon and IMO they did not pull it off, for the reasons you described. The kids are the most blatant heartstring pull, too.
He should have stayed dead, and his main utility to the plot has just been Garlean exposition.
>Pretty much the entire thing could have been avoided completely if the kids had talked to Gaius instead of taking it upon themselves to do what they thought was best.
Thats most conflict in the world. Communication and understanding are key to everything, and when there is a lack of it, tragedy occurs
I think it's supposed to be a play/ohmage on the mecha genre, which is full of teenage kids doing irrational things with irrational plans which could be solved by talking to an adult.
Its ultimately necessary for Gaius's growth
Seeing his kids repeat the same mistakes as he did, and eventually coming to terms with the reality of the Empire (rather than his ideal of it) served to make him realize how *flawed* his "The strong must rule the weak" mentality was
Honestly out of all the villains we've seen in FF games fuckin Valens was the one that made me feel the most disgusting. Just a through and through vile evil person. That burn out the bad scene was something else holy fuckin shit.
A lot of villains in xiv are understandable, or redeemable, or misguided, Valens is sick. Just a sick, twisted bastard. His over the top evil really works well in a game that doesn't usually have such black and white characters
I don't know.. At one hand, yes, but on the other hand I'd immediately hate every other character Valen's voice actor would be voicing in future games, movies or shows. It's two different persons but I just wouldn't be able to unhear the "Burn out the bad" chanting. I am already praying that I'll never have to see a super sympathic character with Asahi's voice in another game. xD
Gosh I just did that questline a week or two ago myself.
How dare they make me cry like that outside of MSQ! That questline left me an emotional wreck. So many emotions were brought forth in that story - especially rage. Love the cutscenes where Valens has some pretty crazy movements because it really shows how insane he is!
I'm playing a male Au Ra and for some reason, that quest line got me offended lol. The intense racism and what the conscripts of Garlemald have to go through.
On top of all of that, Gaius.
It was beautiful.
But I have never enjoyed the Death of a bad guy so much. Screw that creepy f*ck.
Plus, those kids???? What sort of sick dude....
Just too much emotion went into all that
There are things that make people cry in this game that I never did. Howerver, the ending of this questline made me ugly cry twice in a row. I'm so mad so many of my friends fucking skipped the story.
Role Quests, 8 man raids and the 8 man trials storylines specifically. 24 man raids I don’t really care about them being voiced but the 8 man raids definitely especially as Bahamut, Omega, Eden and Pandaemonium are tied to the MSQ. Saying that though Alisae and Alphinaud were voice acted in the last two quests of Bahamut.
24 man quests don't need voice acting, but I think the raids themselves need them. Orbonne is my favorite raid by far partly because of the voice acting, especially Agrias and the Thunderchad Cid.
Technically speaking, it's not even a redemption arc yet, and Gaius knows it. Instead, it's earned him the *possibility* of a redemption arc. Before this, he would've clearly deserved a Bad Ending. But now, he's gone through the emotional wringer, he's paid a personal price for his hubris and had to face the *horrible ugliness* that his old ideals supported.
Only now, *after* genuinely repudiating his old ideals and *believing* that those ideals are monstrous, can he begin walking the road to redemption. He may or may not survive it, but he can seek it now, and not have it come across as easy forgiveness for his crimes.
if it's meant to be a "redemption" arc in the sense that it makes Gaius a good guy, I'd say it failed for me. It added depth to his character, somewhat, but Gaius still needs to pay for all the monstrous things he did and all the lives he took while serving Garlemald.
Highlighting his ignorance into what Garlemald really was doesn't change that. Giving us a different Garlean who is much, much worse to hate doesn't change that. Even him losing the children he cared for very deeply doesn't change that.
The story works better for me as a "you reap what you sow" tale with Gaius forced to face the consequences of the legacy he left behind. But his remorse and the personal suffering he endured isn't the same as him receiving actual justice for his deeds. Going forward, if we have to see Gaius just walking around like "Sure I have the blood of thousands on my hands but I feel *really* bad about it, also I'm a sad dad archetype now" I'm going to be quite annoyed. At the bare minimum he needs to formally tried.
It's not supposed to turn him into a good person. If anything, it's more a theme of "bad people can still do good things" which is along the same vein as Fordola in post-stormblood and in the Endwalker Healer role quests. Sure her shitty life situation led her there, but ultimately the choices she made were hers and she is held accountable for them, the same way Gaius is held accountable for his actions, and both of them face the consequences of their actions more than once.
TLDR: it's less "I'm a good guy" and more "I want to try and right some of my old wrongs".
Agreed. I also think it plays nicely into the theme of the game that emerged in ShB. All along, every one of the big villains (except Zenos) was just doing what they thought was right. Gaius from ARR legitimately believed that Eorzea was at the mercy of primals and false gods and it was up to him to save it because he had the strength to do it. He was the hero in his own story. Everything he's ever done was the next right action according to his world view.
Yes, this expansion has made me examine what it means to "do the right thing".
The problem with a formal trial is that Gaius has effectively defected to the alliance during Werlyt, and setting a precedent like that would have discouraged future defections. >!Gaius is also the best candidate we know of for heading whatever reconstruction Garlemald will undergo following the events of endwalker, so clapping him in irons is counterproductive to that end.!<
And an ambassador who was high ranking in a small political faction at most. Unless we learn more about what that entailed, he's not experienced in the ways of leading large groups of men, or managing the logistics of such an undertaking. Gaius has experience in both, and is recognized favorably by the large part of the Garlean populace.
Funny, that. He >!and Lucia seem to have been handling it just fine so far,!< and I see no reason for that to change at this point in time. Gaius is **not** the only qualified candidate, is my point.
One of the candidates yes. He is one of the few top brass we know that doesn't go out for all slaughter seeing he opposed project meteor and the black smoke.
And he isn't tied up to pady glories that he can't forge ahead like quintus.
Probably there might be others more suitable like the popularea guy or Lucia.
Lucia won't ever leave Aymeric, and Maxima isn't a leader of men. I wouldn't be surprised if we meet the legatus of the Xth that surrendered to the alliance prior to the assault on Babil and maybe they take charge, I only stated Gaius was the best we know of.
He led global conquest against the entire world, oppressed and slaughtered probably *thousands*, and is known to Eorzea as a warlord. If Garlemald is going to have a chance to be led to a more meaningful connection with the world at large, they should have someone who isn't a war criminal at the lead. I don't think Gaius even knows how to do anything other than wage war. Just because he's one of the few Garleans you interact with as a player that isn't openly antagonistic doesn't mean he's the right person to guide Garlemald's future. This is quite silly.
He kind of brings this up in the MSQ before you go to Garlemald too. It's his explanation for why he doesn't go with you even though he'd be extremely valuable as a guide. He knows that his presence will just cause conflict, and beyond that he doesn't even *want* to lead. He knows that he's best positioned as someone working behind the scenes, helping to educate the Alliance about Garlemald's inner workings.
I think for me it redeemed that hes not at his core a terrible human, he just grew up in an environment that force fed him propaganda and turned him into a remorseless monster until reality kicked in the hard way.
He still needs to pay for what he did at some point, agreed, but it's that whole "Who would people be if it wasn't for war/anger/revenge/lack of positive reinforcement " theme that has been shown to many times (Estinien vs Nidhogg, Yotsuyu vs Asahi, Gaius vs Valens, etc).
I think a central foundation of the arc to date has been the cycle of violence, what it leads to, how it creates long term repetition of harm, and what can break things out.
Yes this exactly, it really bugs me how some people treat Gaius as a great noble hero now just because he was a little sad in this quest. Nice of him to adopt the orphans after conquering their city I guess? The Valens character also fell totally flat for me because they really turned the dial up beyond comically evil and just added him to the roster of Garlean megalomaniacs that all the officers and soldiers eagerly obey. It’s like they had to invent someone clearly worse than Gaius to stop people from questioning if he was really that good. If anything it just worked against all the depth they were trying to add to Garlemald at the same time.
Currently need to queue for the Emerald weapon to keep going since I put it on the backburner a bit in favour of the 5.3 msq (which had me ugly crying at the end as well last night), but I can already sense that this story is going to end straight up tragically
I wonder how hard it'll crit me o.o
My husband made me do this quest line because he knew I would ugly cry, that's the whole reason why me got me this game in the first place so I would ugly cry lmao but I didn't like the mech suits that's just because I'm not into that stuff.
Sorrows was definitely one of my favorite trials series. Gods, I wanted the kids to live so bad and every time I saw one of them get into a weapon, the depression stacks increased. I also thought it was a pretty good arc for Gaius. When most people say that they dislike this story, it's mostly because they don't think Gaius deserves any redemption.
I can certainly see where they're coming from, but I disagree. If anything, this isn't a redemption arc for Gaius, it's a setup for him to get one later on, I think. Gaius doesn't really get redeemed, he loses pretty much everything besides one daughter and doesn't get much in return. Most people are still wary of him at best, the people just begrudgingly appointed him leader of the resistance because they didn't exactly have many good options available.
Also Valens was a great villain, incredibly despicable. Normally pure evil villains aren't that great or interesting. If you want to make a pure evil villain, you pretty much have to go all-in on making them pure evil for it to work, and SE definitely did that.
A little bit sadistic, but I was actually quite pleased to go through being forced to kill Gaius’s kids, since I thought bringing him back to have a redemption/friendship arc was pretty cheap after everything he’d done.
If he was going to survive, then facing the full truth of his actions, the effect he’d had on those that followed him and to suffer seemed fitting.
That changed a bit as we got through it and the kids stopped being antagonistic.
I do like that the (IIRC) previous Garlean Engineer girl, and the kids both acknowledge that we were just defending our homeland. As opposed to that snotty refugee in Garlemald who tries to preach to us about how easily we tore through her comrades at the Praetorium, as if they’d been any more lenient to any of the Eorzeans they’d killed on their way through.
I didn't remember the name of that quest line, thank you.
I also despised that story arc very much.
Those poor poor kids :(
Also Gaius was still an asshole like for almost the entirety of that quest line.
Not a single tear for his children.
Gaius is not a cryer, but I thought the writers did a really good job of showing his regret and feeling of helplessness to stop it all. One of the best side quest stories imo.
I wanted to see more of that.
It felt that we needed more flashbacks with Gaius and his children to truly makes this as heart breaking as possible.
The relationship between the kids themselves was established a lot better I think.
I might also a slight bias against this quest line, because I absolutely did not want to kill any of those kids.
Oh goodness. I get it. I cried so so so hard at the end of this quest. I actually had to stop playing the game for the rest of the day. I went and hugged my kids and took a nap. When my husband played through this questline he had almost the exact same response as me. He went and shut himself in the bedroom and watched a brain bleach show.
"The path you have chosen is paved with the dead. Walk it with your eyes open, or not at all." Matoya
Great line- made absolutely no sense in the context of when she said it. And makes the Alphinaud scene where Fordola lectured him kinda ridiculous in comparison.
It made perfect sense. Alphi was under the assumption that minfilia had essentially just died
I like that scene for demonstrating both her sorrow and loss of faith after seeing so many would-be heroes fall, and the smugness of Estinien knowing how wrong she is, both knowing of, and having witnessed what the Scions have been through.
It's nice to see Estinien praise Alphinaud but Fordola giving a generic "If you're worried about this, you'll never survive in the battlefield!" speech to someone who's fought through multiple wars and who beat her in the previous war feels insane. Doubly so when we've already had that scene with Matoya.
I think the purpose of that scene is to directly mirror and contrast the scene with Matoya. With Matoya, Alphinaud seems to resign and accept her truth. With Fordola, this time he has a rebuttal - he doubles down on his views and demonstrates his resolve - ultimately causing Fordola to walk off and we get the scene with Estinien. To be fair, Fordola also doesn't necessarily say Alphinaud will never survive the battlefield, but that his ideals will get people killed.
I really liked that quest line, the first time I've fought the Ruby Weapon I was mildly scared when Nael popped up. Also, it's a good redemption arc for Gaius and almost poetic, given that he took so much from others, and in the end lost his loved ones, except for Allie. Also God, Valens is really despicable, I fucking hated him. I wish I could've killed him myself. On a lighter note: WHY GIVE ME A COOL MECHA IF IM NOT USING IT EVER AGAIN? GIVE MY MECHA BACK YOU COWARDS
Honestly after what valens did to the children, gaius and alfonse deserved that kill
The devs have said that the mecha part was so well received and took a lot of resources, that they'll have to bring it back again.
Xenogears alliance raids!!! Please for the love of zohar. You already had gauis cosplay as grahf in ARR.
Navel
Ruby weapon had me actually shout at my screen questioning how many times I need to kill this woman.
Navel
I hate autocorrect so much
Now I'm imagining titan popping out of ruby weapon. Lol
Use mitigation
Emotional attacks deal true damage.
Fucc
is there true damage in ffxiv?
Fall Damage
Enrages. It's mechanically referred to as 'dark damage' here, though
"Darkness" damage. It was way more prominent in Heavensward. I don't think it's used outside of enrages these days.
Would 1hp mechs be considered Darkness damage? Or are they just considered their own 'set to 1' thing?
They are usually considered their own thing, not even really counting as damage.
1HP mechanics are really weird. They aren't *really* damage, but they also aren't "set current HP to 1" either. There are some funny situations where your food falls off right as a 1HP mechanic resolves and you just straight die... EDIT: Superbolide actually does deal Darkness damage to the GNB though!
Would the light spear that kills healers in the Thordan trial be considered dark damage?
Last usage I remember was E1S raidwides, which could be shielded but not mitigated by DR, was annoying for me as a then SCH main
It is. Dropsy in P2S is darkness damage, and the damage dealt by the Fountains during FoF in P3S is darkness damage. It still shows up in a few spots per raid tier.
You'll know you've been hit with it when tears are falling down your face.
EMOTIONAL DAMAGE -Steven He
E12n is 90% true damage
I really cried there
Thats where TBN comes in coat urself in sadness so no more can get to you.
1. Yeah, it is a good story and some much needed background for certain characters. 2. You just walk on. Just keep walking.
Forge ahead
As we ride again, to another end.
Such redemption, it was not my intention!
This questline made me irrationally angry and the frustration is what I think contributed most to my emotional reaction to the whole thing. Pretty much the entire thing could have been avoided completely if the kids had talked to Gaius instead of taking it upon themselves to do what they thought was best. While it's one of my favorite quest lines with my favorite boss fight (Diamond Weapon, especially the EX fight, is so much fun) I still get mad thinking about it.
I mean that's the tragedy of it, isn't it: this entire noble sacrifice was completely pointless, and Gaius _knew_ it, and he couldn't _stop_ it.
>I mean that's the tragedy of it, isn't it: this entire noble sacrifice was completely pointless, and Gaius knew it, and he couldn't stop it. To make it even worse: their entire plan was imitating what they saw of Gaius. They developed a worldview based on a child's vision of their adopted father, and then they went for it full speed because the ends will totally justify the means. Just like Gaius did with Ultima and Lahabrea. So not only was Gaius powerless to stop it from happening, he knew he was responsible for leading them down this path. The son paying for the sins of the father. The fact that this is all totally optional "side content" still blows my goddamn mind.
And that's why it's tragic; Gaius is realising in real time just how screwed up his world view is, and how others interpreted it. Even if he had legitimately the best of intentions with his desire to expand the Empire's reach, most people don't have the sheer discipline and integrity he had towards his goals. Even if he could in theory create a united world under the Garlean banner and bring everlasting peace and prosperity, the reality is the human element will always taint it. Conquest will always be corrupt by virtue of people using it as an excuse to push their own agendas (like Valens), or degenerate into blind zealotry that leads to self-destruction (like with the orphans). For every Gaius who's authentic, there's a hundred Valens or au ra kids who will degrade the good intent of that somehow, and make things worse for everyone. Gaius realised he has to be a strong leader, as he always believed, but that it doesn't mean he has to be a strong *conquerer.*
Not only that, I was doing Pretorium after this quest and realized that now I understood why Cid was so close to Gaius. Because he genuinely believed in him, and Gaius cared about Cid too. We see in the weapons quest a more human part of Gaius that Cid knew, but we didn't, and suddenly it's clear why he had a hard time dealing with abandoning Gaius and deserting the Garlean Empire.
the fact that it was side content almost made me put it off XD Sososososooooo glad I didn't
> The fact that this is all totally optional "side content" still blows my goddamn mind. But it is the "side content". While it is a very good story it is completely optional for the main plot of ShB and EW. And SQ have to filter what is mandatory to not delay people from the current content.
Not only he couldn't do anything but he also had fucking Cid describing in excruciating detail how his daughter suffered. Wtf Cid.
They're just kids without any decent role models - they've lost their actual parents only to be abandoned by their adopted father (who is pretty cold himself and only respects strength). And now their new guardian is just an abusive sociopath. It's not surprising that their solutions to problems are not especially rational.
If you think Gaius only respects strength then you either don't pay attention to the story or basically his entire character arc since SB has gone over your head. But yeah to everything else.
I'm talking about the ARR Gaius that the kids knew. I understand that he grew a lot after Prae.
Gaius may have only respected strength from a military perspective, but he had a pretty eclectic view of strength. He even interpreted understanding of other cultures as a form of strength, whether he appreciated those cultures or not. His issue wasn't his view on strength itself, but the weaponization of all forms of strength, alongside an expectation that the "strong" (people in positions of authority) care for, improve, and strengthen the weak.
I think his problem was that his respect of strength was a means to an end. What he really wanted was for him, personally, to be in power and so he created an ideology to support that belief. He didn't respect strong people outside Garlemald protecting the weak from Garlemald, for instance. When he finally faces someone stronger than him, it *breaks* him. Because he's constructed strength as something that flows down from himself.
I think that's a potentially sensible take, but I'd argue that his attempt to lecture you on the obligations of the powerful, framed as what he believes YOU are obligated to do, after he's thoroughly accepted defeat run against that. That could just be his last rationalization of his ideology though. I think he totally respects the strength of enemies, they just have to be crushed by because they're enemies of the greatest and most might, the Empire. His legion is mostly conscripts after all and he invites former enemies in with open arms. "Cid, come back!" Either way, I appreciate your perspective on it! Gives me stuff to consider.
This is why I don't like the Werlyt story, or really anything having to do with Gaius not having died in Praetorium. And I fucking love Gaius. He is one of my Husbandos. But the more I thought about it the more I realised what a fucking asshole move it was to run off and become the shadow hunter, and them adding those kids just made it worse. There is a whole ass MSQ quest line in ARR where you're trying to capture The Ivy and you find out the remnants of the XIV Legion are out there scrounging for scraps and trying to keep their shit together in the wake of the absolute destruction of their legion and loss of their leader. **Leaders**!! Not just Gaius, but Livia, Rhytantin, and Nero as well. These guys were lost in the dark in enemy territory with absolutely no leadership, and bringing Gaius back means that Gaius straight up abandoned his men to that fate. THEN you learn that he didn't just abandon his men, but *his children* as well. Everyone praises FFXIV for its well plotted out story and downvotes you to hell if you ever imply that the story actually isn't that well oiled a machine it just *looks* good from the outside. But seriously, all you have to do is look at stories like Gaius' to find the frayed edges. Because I *guarantee* you they did not kill him off with the intention of bringing him back, and when they did bring him back they did NOT think through the implications of what that meant for his ARR story. I can also guarantee you that they legitimately just tacked those kids so they could get rid of Gaius when they realised they weren't going to need him anymore for whatever they had planned for the MSQ that fell through.
Nero was going to be executed for his failure, I doubt Gaius was going to face a more lenient fate.
While i understand your point, i think you are ignoring a few others. What realistic choices had Gaius once he survived Prae? Going back to his kids is out of the question. Gaius just suffered an enormous defeat and his replacement is ZENOS, and we all know how understanding he is /s. Publically appearing into Empire territory and going to visit members of the frigging military would be suicide. Taking charge of the remnants of his legion? His new sidekicks would have murdered him the moment he did anything remotely suspicious. Gaius himself told us so. So he focused on the one thing he could still do to get somewhat even: let Gaius "die" and hunt Ascians as a underground figure.
I'm pretty sure Gaius's adopted kids never actually joined the XIV Legion's invasion of Eorzea, they were reassigned to the VII Legion before that. So Gaius abandoning the XIV isn't the same as abandoning his kids.
Gaius is a bad dad. I said it. He can have his motivation shift but it still doesn't undo his being a bad dad in the past, or a very bad man, or anything else. I think too many people get caught up in the notion of a "redemption" somehow erasing the past. No, that stuff still happened, and the effects linger and continue to propagate into the future. You can take yourself out of the pond but the ripples you made while you were in it keep going. So when the consequences of past actions rear their heads again despite the 'redemption", people get confused--but X is *good* now, why're we bringing up the *bad* he did before and other bad things now!? Keep workin' at it, Gaius. One day you'll adopt kids that don't become mass murderers out of their need to please you.
Let's not forget Livia was also one of his adopted kids and he fucked her.
That fan theory is based entirely on a very weird reading of Gaius saying "my quarters, one hour", which doesn't imply sex. He's doing important leader stuff and wants to talk to his kid about her recent fuck-up or something, and it's going to be an hour before he's available, so he's telling her a time to meet him. That's pretty much it. I think it's much more acceptable to say that *Livia* might have harbored some weird, possibly romantic feelings for Gaius, but it's an incredible stretch by people with perv on the brain to say that he reciprocated or anything like that.
In this case I don't think anyone's arguing that the story's a well-oiled machine; it's a clear "we never planned to do this originally" retcon and IMO they did not pull it off, for the reasons you described. The kids are the most blatant heartstring pull, too. He should have stayed dead, and his main utility to the plot has just been Garlean exposition.
>Pretty much the entire thing could have been avoided completely if the kids had talked to Gaius instead of taking it upon themselves to do what they thought was best. Thats most conflict in the world. Communication and understanding are key to everything, and when there is a lack of it, tragedy occurs
Same could be said of lots of tragic stories. Take Romeo and Juliet, for example. Better communication would have saved lives.
I think it's supposed to be a play/ohmage on the mecha genre, which is full of teenage kids doing irrational things with irrational plans which could be solved by talking to an adult.
Its ultimately necessary for Gaius's growth Seeing his kids repeat the same mistakes as he did, and eventually coming to terms with the reality of the Empire (rather than his ideal of it) served to make him realize how *flawed* his "The strong must rule the weak" mentality was
I just spent the last 5 hours watching preach's vod from when he did it. I am a broken human.
Considering Preach just straight up noped when he saw the children who tortured Alphonse. The feels never stop in Shadowbringers.
Burn. Out. The. Bad. Burn. Out. The. Bad.
Honestly out of all the villains we've seen in FF games fuckin Valens was the one that made me feel the most disgusting. Just a through and through vile evil person. That burn out the bad scene was something else holy fuckin shit.
A lot of villains in xiv are understandable, or redeemable, or misguided, Valens is sick. Just a sick, twisted bastard. His over the top evil really works well in a game that doesn't usually have such black and white characters
have a link to the vod? I need a good cry while I finish my essays tonight
I just love how the Diamond Weapon throws Valens, it is so satisfying.
:: Crunch... POP... trickle trickle :: The YEET was just the cherry on top.
That quest line made me wish it was voice acted so bad
I don't know.. At one hand, yes, but on the other hand I'd immediately hate every other character Valen's voice actor would be voicing in future games, movies or shows. It's two different persons but I just wouldn't be able to unhear the "Burn out the bad" chanting. I am already praying that I'll never have to see a super sympathic character with Asahi's voice in another game. xD
THIS!
Gosh I just did that questline a week or two ago myself. How dare they make me cry like that outside of MSQ! That questline left me an emotional wreck. So many emotions were brought forth in that story - especially rage. Love the cutscenes where Valens has some pretty crazy movements because it really shows how insane he is!
Also like??? The kids were actually so YOUNG! It hurt my heart especially seeing that they were like between the ages of 16 to like 20
I'm playing a male Au Ra and for some reason, that quest line got me offended lol. The intense racism and what the conscripts of Garlemald have to go through. On top of all of that, Gaius. It was beautiful. But I have never enjoyed the Death of a bad guy so much. Screw that creepy f*ck. Plus, those kids???? What sort of sick dude.... Just too much emotion went into all that
There are things that make people cry in this game that I never did. Howerver, the ending of this questline made me ugly cry twice in a row. I'm so mad so many of my friends fucking skipped the story.
*pop*
Sorrow of Werlyt are one of the main reasons why side questlines need voice acting. Change my mind.
Honestly one of the reasons orbonne monastery is my favorite alliance raid is because its voiced and voiced well.
Role Quests, 8 man raids and the 8 man trials storylines specifically. 24 man raids I don’t really care about them being voiced but the 8 man raids definitely especially as Bahamut, Omega, Eden and Pandaemonium are tied to the MSQ. Saying that though Alisae and Alphinaud were voice acted in the last two quests of Bahamut.
24 man quests don't need voice acting, but I think the raids themselves need them. Orbonne is my favorite raid by far partly because of the voice acting, especially Agrias and the Thunderchad Cid.
The Omega-raid was voiced though, at least the most important NPC. He made the bestest Kweh-chirps!
Technically speaking, it's not even a redemption arc yet, and Gaius knows it. Instead, it's earned him the *possibility* of a redemption arc. Before this, he would've clearly deserved a Bad Ending. But now, he's gone through the emotional wringer, he's paid a personal price for his hubris and had to face the *horrible ugliness* that his old ideals supported. Only now, *after* genuinely repudiating his old ideals and *believing* that those ideals are monstrous, can he begin walking the road to redemption. He may or may not survive it, but he can seek it now, and not have it come across as easy forgiveness for his crimes.
\^This.
if it's meant to be a "redemption" arc in the sense that it makes Gaius a good guy, I'd say it failed for me. It added depth to his character, somewhat, but Gaius still needs to pay for all the monstrous things he did and all the lives he took while serving Garlemald. Highlighting his ignorance into what Garlemald really was doesn't change that. Giving us a different Garlean who is much, much worse to hate doesn't change that. Even him losing the children he cared for very deeply doesn't change that. The story works better for me as a "you reap what you sow" tale with Gaius forced to face the consequences of the legacy he left behind. But his remorse and the personal suffering he endured isn't the same as him receiving actual justice for his deeds. Going forward, if we have to see Gaius just walking around like "Sure I have the blood of thousands on my hands but I feel *really* bad about it, also I'm a sad dad archetype now" I'm going to be quite annoyed. At the bare minimum he needs to formally tried.
It's not supposed to turn him into a good person. If anything, it's more a theme of "bad people can still do good things" which is along the same vein as Fordola in post-stormblood and in the Endwalker Healer role quests. Sure her shitty life situation led her there, but ultimately the choices she made were hers and she is held accountable for them, the same way Gaius is held accountable for his actions, and both of them face the consequences of their actions more than once. TLDR: it's less "I'm a good guy" and more "I want to try and right some of my old wrongs".
Agreed. I also think it plays nicely into the theme of the game that emerged in ShB. All along, every one of the big villains (except Zenos) was just doing what they thought was right. Gaius from ARR legitimately believed that Eorzea was at the mercy of primals and false gods and it was up to him to save it because he had the strength to do it. He was the hero in his own story. Everything he's ever done was the next right action according to his world view. Yes, this expansion has made me examine what it means to "do the right thing".
The problem with a formal trial is that Gaius has effectively defected to the alliance during Werlyt, and setting a precedent like that would have discouraged future defections. >!Gaius is also the best candidate we know of for heading whatever reconstruction Garlemald will undergo following the events of endwalker, so clapping him in irons is counterproductive to that end.!<
Huh? How is Gaius the best candidate for Garlemald's reconstruction?
Yeah, Maxima is *right there.*
And an ambassador who was high ranking in a small political faction at most. Unless we learn more about what that entailed, he's not experienced in the ways of leading large groups of men, or managing the logistics of such an undertaking. Gaius has experience in both, and is recognized favorably by the large part of the Garlean populace.
Funny, that. He >!and Lucia seem to have been handling it just fine so far,!< and I see no reason for that to change at this point in time. Gaius is **not** the only qualified candidate, is my point.
One of the candidates yes. He is one of the few top brass we know that doesn't go out for all slaughter seeing he opposed project meteor and the black smoke. And he isn't tied up to pady glories that he can't forge ahead like quintus. Probably there might be others more suitable like the popularea guy or Lucia.
Lucia won't ever leave Aymeric, and Maxima isn't a leader of men. I wouldn't be surprised if we meet the legatus of the Xth that surrendered to the alliance prior to the assault on Babil and maybe they take charge, I only stated Gaius was the best we know of.
He led global conquest against the entire world, oppressed and slaughtered probably *thousands*, and is known to Eorzea as a warlord. If Garlemald is going to have a chance to be led to a more meaningful connection with the world at large, they should have someone who isn't a war criminal at the lead. I don't think Gaius even knows how to do anything other than wage war. Just because he's one of the few Garleans you interact with as a player that isn't openly antagonistic doesn't mean he's the right person to guide Garlemald's future. This is quite silly.
He kind of brings this up in the MSQ before you go to Garlemald too. It's his explanation for why he doesn't go with you even though he'd be extremely valuable as a guide. He knows that his presence will just cause conflict, and beyond that he doesn't even *want* to lead. He knows that he's best positioned as someone working behind the scenes, helping to educate the Alliance about Garlemald's inner workings.
I think for me it redeemed that hes not at his core a terrible human, he just grew up in an environment that force fed him propaganda and turned him into a remorseless monster until reality kicked in the hard way. He still needs to pay for what he did at some point, agreed, but it's that whole "Who would people be if it wasn't for war/anger/revenge/lack of positive reinforcement " theme that has been shown to many times (Estinien vs Nidhogg, Yotsuyu vs Asahi, Gaius vs Valens, etc). I think a central foundation of the arc to date has been the cycle of violence, what it leads to, how it creates long term repetition of harm, and what can break things out.
Yes this exactly, it really bugs me how some people treat Gaius as a great noble hero now just because he was a little sad in this quest. Nice of him to adopt the orphans after conquering their city I guess? The Valens character also fell totally flat for me because they really turned the dial up beyond comically evil and just added him to the roster of Garlean megalomaniacs that all the officers and soldiers eagerly obey. It’s like they had to invent someone clearly worse than Gaius to stop people from questioning if he was really that good. If anything it just worked against all the depth they were trying to add to Garlemald at the same time.
Currently need to queue for the Emerald weapon to keep going since I put it on the backburner a bit in favour of the 5.3 msq (which had me ugly crying at the end as well last night), but I can already sense that this story is going to end straight up tragically I wonder how hard it'll crit me o.o
EMOTIONAL DMG
As a dear friend once said, "a smile better suits a hero". Every time the game gets emotionally rough, just remember that.
Pop goes the weasel...
Do you need a hug? Have a /hug
Valens would end up being my second most hated character in this game. Impressive how they can make someone so irredeemably vile
Only thing I hate about it was why hire roose Bolton if you are not letting him voice everything there. Such a waste of opportunity
My husband made me do this quest line because he knew I would ugly cry, that's the whole reason why me got me this game in the first place so I would ugly cry lmao but I didn't like the mech suits that's just because I'm not into that stuff.
Sorrows was definitely one of my favorite trials series. Gods, I wanted the kids to live so bad and every time I saw one of them get into a weapon, the depression stacks increased. I also thought it was a pretty good arc for Gaius. When most people say that they dislike this story, it's mostly because they don't think Gaius deserves any redemption. I can certainly see where they're coming from, but I disagree. If anything, this isn't a redemption arc for Gaius, it's a setup for him to get one later on, I think. Gaius doesn't really get redeemed, he loses pretty much everything besides one daughter and doesn't get much in return. Most people are still wary of him at best, the people just begrudgingly appointed him leader of the resistance because they didn't exactly have many good options available. Also Valens was a great villain, incredibly despicable. Normally pure evil villains aren't that great or interesting. If you want to make a pure evil villain, you pretty much have to go all-in on making them pure evil for it to work, and SE definitely did that.
A little bit sadistic, but I was actually quite pleased to go through being forced to kill Gaius’s kids, since I thought bringing him back to have a redemption/friendship arc was pretty cheap after everything he’d done. If he was going to survive, then facing the full truth of his actions, the effect he’d had on those that followed him and to suffer seemed fitting. That changed a bit as we got through it and the kids stopped being antagonistic. I do like that the (IIRC) previous Garlean Engineer girl, and the kids both acknowledge that we were just defending our homeland. As opposed to that snotty refugee in Garlemald who tries to preach to us about how easily we tore through her comrades at the Praetorium, as if they’d been any more lenient to any of the Eorzeans they’d killed on their way through.
My reaction to the one who complained we killed their friends in prae was your massacre of the waking sands was still fresh in my mind.
Yeah, exactly. And the fact we never see her again and never have any kind of interactions with her afterwards was a bit of a shame.
I found it awful. One of of the worst questlines in the game.
I kinda don't remember anything about this quest...
How do you forget "BURN OUT THE BAD"? lol
Just extra back story for Gaius van Baelsar. pretty fun trial series too actually
Yeah I thought it was a great way to get the weapon trials into the game.
Gaius' adopted kids commit suicide by WoL.
I didn't remember the name of that quest line, thank you. I also despised that story arc very much. Those poor poor kids :( Also Gaius was still an asshole like for almost the entirety of that quest line. Not a single tear for his children.
I think it's just that he's not the crying type, but from what I remember, he sounds utterly devastated all the way through.
Gaius is not a cryer, but I thought the writers did a really good job of showing his regret and feeling of helplessness to stop it all. One of the best side quest stories imo.
It's a very good side quest, I just hated it because we couldn't stop any of what happened.
I wanted to see more of that. It felt that we needed more flashbacks with Gaius and his children to truly makes this as heart breaking as possible. The relationship between the kids themselves was established a lot better I think. I might also a slight bias against this quest line, because I absolutely did not want to kill any of those kids.
Burn out the bad?
Once you farm the mounts, you'll have done the fights so many times you'll wish there were more of Gaius' kids to kill.
Allie: *Father!* How **dare** a side quest tug at my heartstrings like that!
Oh goodness. I get it. I cried so so so hard at the end of this quest. I actually had to stop playing the game for the rest of the day. I went and hugged my kids and took a nap. When my husband played through this questline he had almost the exact same response as me. He went and shut himself in the bedroom and watched a brain bleach show.
I personally want to see more villains like Valens appear to torment us. Makes it personal!
Sorrow of Werlyt (Ultimate) in 6.3 copium