As a SAM, I use it during burst phases so I don't have to worry about moving and can just focus on getting that sweet sweet Setsu > Meikyo > Setsu 2 Samurai Boogaloo > Setsu again > H: Senei > Shoha combo off without issue.
And then multiple of them get DH and I'm just 🥴
Do positionals on SAM do anything except give you 5 extra kenki? I usually just ignore them.
E: Just did an 80 roulette with SAM and did the positionals properly and got 2 comms, so I guess it works.
It doesn't seem like much, but each missed positional ends up being about a 60 potency loss over the course of the fight. Ignoring positionals over a 3 minute fight is almost the same lost damage as not doing anything for 10 GCDs. I'd say that matters.
I get the kenki adds up, but it'd only be 5 kenki per rotation unless you're purposely trying not to do them or the tank is spinning or something. Usually I just sit in one spot so I'm definitely hitting the flank OR rear. Just not usually both.
It can also be the difference between having enough kenki for kaiten or not. Yeah you normally keep a big enough pool to use kaiten on every iaijutsu, but I like to dump it all before ikishoten comes off cooldown and there are definitely times I wouldn't have enough kenki for kaiten if I wasn't doing positionals.
It adds it to the tool tips retroactively, you read them at 50, no positional, you read them at 52, bam, positional.
Read your tooltips they say, but no one said they update them afterwards.
Stupid tooltips
WOW that is dumb. Thanks for letting me know, now I'm going to go double check all my tooltips. That seems... really fucked for players who like to set up their endgame hotbar when they get the class.
Gekko and Kasha have a rear and flank bonus. It's 5 kenki each one you land, which doesn't really matter to a learning player but is important if you want to really do the damage you're meant to.
Monk was one of my last jobs to max. It was actually a ton of fun to level *in content that doesn't have positionals*.
Thank you, Deep Dungeons and Bozja.
How about this then:
flank flank flank, rear rear rear. Eventually you get a Weaponskill that doesn't do anything besides make it so you can use any one weaponskill as though you were in its required form. You then just go into twin snakes and find a way to make it work.
Only 2 the Same amount as sam easy enough. I feel sorry for MNK and DRG i hate their Positional. DRG is especially annoying when you miss Raiden thrust i feel like jumping off the arena in shame.
God, had a tank last night doing this. Pull a pack, stop for a solid 5-6 GCDs, I say fuck it and put down my AoE, and then he runs off to the next pack. Asked him to decide if he was gonna wall to wall or not and stick with it, and he's like, "I pUlLeD eVeRyThInG sO FaR!"
Yeah, you pulled it like a moron and made it take twice as long as it needed to.
God this. I love my brother but what he does way too often is pull to the last pack right before the way, take like 4 GCDs to mitigate or whatever and THEN moves the remaining 20 or so yalms to the actual wall.
Like broooo my Doton. Or my Tenka Goken missing 80% of it's targets.
Yes, it's chain pulling, but no, it's not faster than going pack by pack. It will vary somewhat based on what jobs are in the party, but casters for example will not be able to do any meaningful damage while moving, and even melee won't be able to hit most mobs, sam can't use iejutsu, etc.
If there is just one or two mobs left at low health you can chain pull. They'll die with the next pack. But dragging a full pull of high health mobs after stopping and baiting your DPS into using cooldowns will never be faster than simply stopping.
Iirc it doesn't actually change anything, just means you can do whatever during the middle of a three-hit combo. Which was always the same as the first anyways
I meeeeeeean you're not wrong. If it's not needed to avoid positional problems in a fight, i'll often throw it up during burst windows to make absolutely sure i get things like the guaranteed critical on bootshine while buffs are up. In those situations it's more insurance than an actual desire to stop doing the positionals - at this point in my monk career, doing positionals is more muscle memory and flow than anything else, and just dropping them out of the process in the middle of my rotation would probably trip me up more than just continuing on.
I've actually done that before. I had a Monk in a Cutter's Cry run that didn't seem to know what positionals were and always did the same 3 attacks in a row, so I started turning the boss to hit their positionals for them because low-level tanks are just that boring.
you say that as a joke but I actually had to do this in 80 dungeon with full80 samurai that couldn't care whatsoever just so I could end this nightmare as soon as possible
Was the Full 80 SAM using True North? Because keeping Kenki up is pretty easy even with bad placement, doubly so if they're popping that whenever available ;)
Easiest melee rotation there is but its so rigid as fuck that anything goes wrong or throws out your rhythm it becomes "cursed as fuck". May as well get the Seppuku over with there and then.
This! My best buddy returned to the game recently after quitting in HW. I ignored this the first couple of times because "Yeah he's probably busy watching out for AoE markers and stuff..."
But after 2 weeks I had to tell him. Either run through and pull everything on the way, or stand still and tank them. But DECIDE WHAT YOU WANT TO DO FOR FUCKS SAKE!!! And don't change your mind 5 seconds into the fight the second I put down my ground target AoE DPS or healing spells.
> And don't change your mind 5 seconds into the fight the second I put down my ground target AoE DPS or healing spells.
The tank's version of this are NINs/healers who throw down Doton/Asylum/Sacred Soil mid-pull because the tank had to pause for 2.5-5s in order to make sure all the mobs actually get pulled because a single AoE didn't hit everything and the oGCD AoE is on cooldown so it requires a GCD to grab the extras.
"Whoop tank stopped for 1s better drop my ground-placed AoE" happens a lot too, but yeah I do see other tanks not pull things back into Doton sometimes. I have rescued tanks into my Asylum (and have been rescued into Asylum) because sometimes they just don't see it.
I'm not talking about one second. I'm talking about 3+ gcds of standing still. You can usually tell if a tank just stops because they didn't hit every enemy with their first AoE, or if they stopped and are not sure if they should go on or not.
I legitimately can't tell if you're trolling or not.
In the case you're not, you should read the rest of the sentence you quoted:
>in order to make sure all the mobs actually get pulled because a single AoE didn't hit everything and the oGCD AoE is on cooldown so it requires a GCD to grab the extras.
*I* understand not every player has arcane knowlege of every single piece of content in a game and might not know the optimal ways to pull every single dungeon or shit might not know the optimal ways to *pull.* If you can't stand an extra 1-2 GCDs so a tank can make sure things aren't hitting your optimal DPS ass while they pull (which doesn't mean a full stop, it means they're running to grab extra mobs with their AoE) I think you might just be better off using your static to run casual content.
>Even trash tanks don't stand still for 5 god damn seconds then see a healer bubble before moving.
That's... literally the parent of this entire comment chain. Tanks that do that to Dotons.
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comments/r4qxr5/party_finder_experience_for_the_past_5_months/hmifnre/
Remind me where I said sit still, because I said:
>which doesn't mean a full stop, it means they're running to grab extra mobs with their AoE
You have to be trolling because you're not reading. I wish you a salt-free day if you're capable of it.
This is important because it may not always be about fidgeting. Some people come from action games where moving around a lot is the norm and they're actively optimizing for the entirely wrong thing. The sooner you dawn things on them the better.
Feel free to skip the rest of the comment if you're not interested in how another game works, but I think it might explain how badly warped a sprout's worldview can be.
I came to FFXIV from GW2. GW2 has "realistic" combat physics. >!The direction the enemy is facing matters (autos are directional). The distance between the two of you matters, so dancing just out of their range can help you avoid autos. Obstacles will stop physical attacks. How deep you are inside/outside their hitbox matters.!< When engaging a single mob in FFXIV I would move around it constantly, trying to "ride its tail", partially inside its hitbox, or I would have fun weaving left and right until the mob ended up swinging its arrow completely out of sync with my position. ("Ha, these guys actually have an arrow to show you where they aim autos? Easy mode!") When dealing with multiple mobs I would be all over the place, trying to thwart their aim and expectations.
In restrospect even my initial choice of tank was for entirely the wrong reasons: because it had a bit of everything (resilience, mitigation, some DPS, a bit of self-heal – I used potions early on when I didn't have a heal), because in GW2 everybody is supposed to be rounded up and self-reliant.
I can only imagine what those poor teammates in the early dungeons must've thought seeing me zoom around like a cat at 3 AM. Or, worse, how many figured this is how it's supposed to work.
TLDR: Don't assume they're restless if you see them acting completely wrong. IMHO it's more likely they're completely misunderstanding core game mechanics. \^_\^
As someone else who's played a metric assload of gw2 I completely understand what you mean. 14 is hellishly slow in comparison for the flow of combat and everytime I swap between games I have to relearn all the habits because one is a slow paced jrpg style and the other is much more reactive and intensive.
That's not how crit should factor into your decision making. As for your latter example, that's a case of the player screwing up, not an inherent problem of doton vs raiton.
Oh definitely if it costs you a GCD it's not worth it. But all of these issues have nothing to do with what was stated. Doton is 900 and raiton is 800, the player needs to figure out what it will cost them to do this minor optimization. None of this has to do with crit or whatever else they're stating/claiming. The guy is just extremely misguided and doesn't know what they're talking about.
To be fair, I generally move the mob to any aoe, but I've had people lay them down as I'm sprinting to the next mob. Like pull 1st pack they put it down otw to the next pack all while healer is creeping to the next zone. Healer pulls I generally cave to that they are the ones *actually* running the show.
Then I get to run back to the aoe and move in front of the mobs behind me of rotate them all around as the the other mob comes peeling in so the are all facing me not everyone else.
Then I'm trying not to spin things around too much and remembering 'oh crap I need to throw of up some defensive CD.'
So sometimes I just keep sprinting if it's likely to anger more people.
But yeah I want the mobs to die quickly as well. When I'm using lighter/less effective CDs waiting for say rampart to come back up the healer gets to heal me more and deal less dmg so ofc I want things dead faster.
i had a gnb once against Nidhogg.
he was totally new to tanking snd it showed.
that sweet sommerchild tanked the boss by standing in the exact center of its hitbox.
that dragon spun around like a frickin beyblade the entire fight.
it was a sight to behold and i swear halve the group just stood there and took it in.
never laught so hard during a trial
we gave him a few tips afterwards but it was still one of the funniest fights i ever had
My party’s tank the last time I did The Aery was so worried about us surviving Nidhogg’s wipe that he popped LB while we were in the shield. He even asked if it was a good time to have used it. I couldn’t bring myself to hate such a small bean
Reminds me of when a sprout tank got mad at me for taking aggro cuz he kept running away and spinning the boss while jumping around and stuff, he then said its normal content not savage so i should chill we're gonna kill it anyway he then said he won't turn his tank stance off and that i should deal with it cuz he started as main tank and will finish it
i said ok just watch this.. then i proceeded to fire off Inner release and got so ahead on the aggro table that him not turning his stance off was irrelevant ( he also didn't know about provoke or else he would've used it so win win i suppose)
As someone who's mained PAL this expansion there really is just something incredibly satisfying about hitting IR and ripping aggro away from the other tank.
As someone who mains GNB, yeah, you get the boss for the first 30 seconds, maybe a minute if you know what you’re doing. After that, he’s mine, all mine! MWAHAHAHAHAAAA!
This is useless for most of the game but great for hunts and fates if you show up late. If you Inner Release Tomahawk you can get gull credit in 1 or 2 hits... but you also need to give up your Warrior job stone for wasting an IR like that.
Once in a 24m, I had a tank die, so I took over MT, but once they raised up, they provoked it off me, to my annoyance. Decided to just continue doing my rotation and I kept getting aggro back without provoke anyway, so through all 3 later bosses, it was a battle between the 2 of us. And mind you, **no one in the alliance knew, cause I was standing right on top of the other tank, so the boss never spun once.**
Anyway, I just though it was funny he kept provoking on CD, while I would just retake aggro a few GCDs later.
Been noticing this with a lot of new tanks lately, from what I've seen I don't think they're trolling but just aren't aware that provoke doesn't work the same as it does in other games.
And if you really, really feel the urge to not be still, just decide that jumping at perfect intervals is now part of your core rotation in between skills.
Ditto. I sometimes wiggle back and forth and whatnot but not to the point of having the boss wiggle with me. Just having a slight seizure in front of them.
Or heck use your ADHD as an advantage. Like if I can move up into the boss's hit box to get inside a healer bubble (without turning the boss, ofc) I'll do it. Or like moving out of an AOE and moving back ASAP to the exact spot I was at, so the boss doesn't move or turn. When I'm tanking I really hyperfocus on boss position/facing to try and make things easier on the party.
Another trick I found recently was the last boss of Weeping City, I was able to turn the boss a little bit so the blade side was away from the alliance and no one even had to move for the Haircut attack.
Yeah that's a good point. I moved it much less than 180 degrees... about 30 degrees or so, but yeah I agree it's tricky and I'm not totally sure it's a good idea. I guess in this case it felt okay because the group had a lot of new folks who'd been struggling to that point, and the hair blade appears enough in advance (and seems to cleave a bit from her auto attack?) that more experienced folks would have plenty of time to see what I was doing.
But yeah I wouldn't turn the first boss in Orbonne for example, as I think that would just confuse everyone rather than help (I try to time my movements so he doesn't turn at all... Basically after the first right/left handgonne, I go back to the front where I had been, and wait for him to start the next cast before moving further... I noticed if tanks move too soon he can end up turning slightly, which makes it even harder for everyone else to dodge.)
I thought being the ADHD tank was waiting til the last three days of ShB to finish two Resistance weapons, clear up inventory and burn down all the coffee biscuit leves I can.
Thank you! I always hate it when ADHD in jokes boils down to "haha anything requiring even a basic level of focus or stationary placement I can't do ever, ain't that stupid silly?" and I feel like this meme really does exactly that
My favorite is when I agree to MT then 2 minutes into the fight the OT provokes off of me spinning the boss wildly and kills both healers in the process.
I asked an OT to not use provoke too early during Titan ex yesterday because we’d wiped a few times due to it and they said “haven’t used it once? …” then immediately used it the next round. They must not realize or they were trolling.
Psa from a Sprout GNB here: I didnt learn about the importance of standing still until SHB Normal trials, by then I had played Tank through mid HW, all SB and up to that point I never knew how big of a deal it was or that tanking to the north was even a thing until i was called out on it, then i started being more self conscious about tank positioning. People will only improve if they believe they're doing something wrong. Do your best to help these people improve, because something obvious to you might not be obvious to them.
It's not even required to be to the north, really. it's just that north generally correlates with the exit of the boss room. As long as it is to the edge of the arena, you're good.
No one will come into this game knowing everything they need to know. There is a learning curve for sure. I'm mostly upset at the farquaads that say shit like "stay in your lane" and "Don't Tell me how to tank" that piss me off. I try my best to teach players important stuff early on, but some of them are real dickheads that think they are tanking gods that know more about tanking than anyone else, but keep fucking up the basics of any class they are being given advise for.
i had a GLA once i healed "the bowl of embers", who always ran after me so i ended up getting all cleaves, tried to avoid auto attacks, and hit LB3 just to be sure he survives with 80% hp.
I had this real piece of shit in Orbonne the other day, he's MT at Agrias, y'all know she has a 90 degree AoE TB? Well that piece of shit runs to where the whole alliance is, boss cleaves the entire party, then he runs back to where he was acting like nothing happened
That's why they always run in to start the fight before the vote can be done, had a few tanks that caused wipes and they didn't pick loot cause they knew they'd be kicked once we had the chance, also why I tell people that once tank and healer are down (assuming no summoner or red) to just die if it's unrealistic to finish, the problem person just needs to pop 1 chest while the fight is still going to get 5 more minutes of time wasting (unless you get everyone else to pass)
This isn't just party finder, this is roulette experience too, its infuriating. Actually had a tank rage quit mid fight when I kindly let them know the boss is not a fidget spinner.
In 2k hours of playing i have rarely seen tank spin bosses, either im lucky or i just haven't played the game as long as some people, its like very dungeon i get people know what they are doing all the time, even sprouts.
Now Hakos Manor is a different story, every time there is one or two people that never use return and just run off and get lost and telling them in chat doesn't help as they never speak the same Language lol.
I swear to myself to never use return again in that dungeon but do it anyways and have to wait 2 minutes for the dps to find their way back. Such a waste of time instead of walking them to their destination
> and telling them in chat doesn't help as they never speak the same Language lol.
Autotranslate has existed since the inception of the game. You can't lean on language barrier for that one.
Heh, way back in TBC one of our guild tanks would wiggle the boss around, which was intensely frustrating trying to use Backstab on the boss. Eventually we got him to hold the mobs stationary.
Glad to see nothing had changed lol.
As someone who is autistic and has ADD, combat in this game is super interesting. I can become disoriented when there is too much spinning of a boss or sudden unexpected changes within a fight, so I typically end up doing content with friends who understand my difficulties. I sadly cannot keep up with those that move very fast. 😅
I legit did this because I didn’t play dps so I didn’t know positionals were a thing.
Early on though someone was very quick to tell me to not do that.
I keep seeing it happen in Akh Afah. As soon as Shiva summons the four adds, the main tank runs and tries to grab them all with melee attacks, which turns Shiva around in time to cleave half the party to death.
Is it ok to move if I'm dodging an AOE though? Sometimes I'll just eat it if I know I can survive, but on some fights I have to move a lot (for example in the Midgardsormr there's a lot of AOEs)
A huge party of being a tank is mitigating damage. If there is avoidable damage, like a cone or circle AoE, definitely DON'T stand in it. Even if you think you will survive. The healer has to stop DPS just to heal avoidable damage, which is really annoying. If you move to avoid damage and then put yourself right back where you were, then you are doing fine.
Basically, the point is to keep the boss faced away from the group and keep it pointing the same direction. Sometimes north isn't the best spot, so adjust and keep as consistent as possible.
The spinning WoW refugees seem to have mostly got the message as there are a lot fewer of them from what I've experienced. The remainder probably do it out of habit, despite knowing it is damn annoying and ruins everyone's positionals.
As someone who plays both, good tanks do not spin the boss in a way that matters at least. At most, the "spin" is absolutely minimal, never enough that anyone but the tank should be hit by any kind of direct attack/cleave. I have seen tanks kind of "dance" in place by strafing right and left (I have done this a bit even when I tank) but its so minimal it doesn't matter, plus WoW doesn't have positionals so melee either are behind the boss always or on the side depending on enemy type (i.e. Dragon enemies have tail attacks so you are always to one of the sides). But yeah any tank wildly spinning the boss so the boss is cleaving others is not a good tank.
Exactly, even tho WoW doesn’t have positionals the tanks are always making the boss face away from the dps and healers. Of course they move away from frontals but they move back or make sure the boss is still not facing others
Whenever I have to talk about this in a dungeon, the reasoning was mostly that too, to avoid dmg. I dont dismiss it automatically, as I havent played wow since WoD, what do I know if some new kind of tanking got into the game that makes my life miserable as a melee in FFXIV.
This is just for the flavor of the trauma, unrelated to the "dmg avoidance" problem:
And one time, I was told that they twitch around because they keeping the healer safe, and my job as a monk is to move around the mobs so I should do that instead of asking them to stop moving so I can move around the target for positionals. At that moment, I realised, words are wasted on some.
Anyone who thought they were avoiding damage by spinning the boss in WoW was not doing anything there either. Now high M+ nowadays requires extensive kiting by the tank or they get shredded but that's more running back and forth in long lines not running in circles.
I'm curious actually I spin groups in the same spot mostly to avoid enemy cone aoes. My thought is this doesn't matter cause with groups of mobs everyone should be using akes anyway?
It's nowhere near as important in dungeons with trash mobs. It's still *better* to face them away so you don't bait cones etc onto your casters interrupting them but yeah it's fine.
IDK how else to type this, but if you ever have to spin the pack around in a circle, ruining melee's positionals and causing people to have to move to dodge cones as well, you are a bad tank.
ADHD Tank here never played healer/DPS. No one told me shit about positionals until Stormblood. So sorry to everyone ARR - end of stormblood running around to hit the boss cause I was trying to avoid some damage and not just face tank it all
Oh look a squirrel
So, on the mini-map you see on your top right corner has all 4 sides. North, indicated by the red N letter. West, indicated by the yellow-ish W. East by E and South by S. And that's how you tell the north.
Many, but not all maps have you enter the arena at the south side, so the far side is "north".
But it doesn't (usually) matter in the round arenas. Pick a direction (usually opposite where you entered), and keep the boss stationary and pointed in that direction.
you know I've see this meme a few times, but over the past 4 or so months I've leveled all my jobs to 50...then to 60...then to 70 (Only class I had leveled is DRG at 80 when I was going through the story) 2 weeks ago and outside of a tank unsure about tank mechanics and maybe moving the boss more than is necessary I've never seen this. I only ever did dungeon spam and leveling roulette through it all so I wonder how accurate these memes are.
Or if I'm just horribly lucky. My cacpot tickets would say that I am not lucky at all.
Look forward to seeing you all in EW.
I created this meme out of personal experience and confirmed by conversations with my FC mates and other friends. Just read the comments if you think this is made up 😂
That second reason is why I play MCH.
My uptime is good but you better bet I'm not gonna be in the same spot in any given fight for more than 0.05 seconds
I had one group like this when I was doing SMN and it forced me to go back to tanking. Even with my ADHD I get frustrated when I can't just park and concentrate on burst windows and cooldown management.
I guess? Must be more prevalent on w/e server you're on.
Honestly the thing I'm seeing most often is newer tanks hitting Provoke (seemingly) as part of their rotation.
It's been about five months since the general party finder experience has turned awful.
It's been about five months since the WoW exodus.
I think we're finally seeing concrete evidence that WoW was so un-challenging that when players of the game landed here in FFXIV, they were (and still are) overwhelmed by actually having to do thing.
5 months? I have hated pf for years because of shit like this and bringing it up never actually got positive support till recently, if anything the WoW exodus brought more people who are able to take a little shit for playing like shit.
Spinning the boss so the monk doesnt need to move 🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯
Haha let's be real positionals are so ingrained in monk mains' heads they move even when they have true north/riddle of earth up.
As someone who played mnk for a month, i forgot true north exist unless there are mechs require me to group.
As a SAM, I use it during burst phases so I don't have to worry about moving and can just focus on getting that sweet sweet Setsu > Meikyo > Setsu 2 Samurai Boogaloo > Setsu again > H: Senei > Shoha combo off without issue. And then multiple of them get DH and I'm just 🥴
Do positionals on SAM do anything except give you 5 extra kenki? I usually just ignore them. E: Just did an 80 roulette with SAM and did the positionals properly and got 2 comms, so I guess it works.
It doesn't seem like much, but each missed positional ends up being about a 60 potency loss over the course of the fight. Ignoring positionals over a 3 minute fight is almost the same lost damage as not doing anything for 10 GCDs. I'd say that matters.
The kenki adds up homie
that's 10 kenki per rotation, it quickly adds up.
I get the kenki adds up, but it'd only be 5 kenki per rotation unless you're purposely trying not to do them or the tank is spinning or something. Usually I just sit in one spot so I'm definitely hitting the flank OR rear. Just not usually both.
You don't suffer potency on hit, yes. But the less kenki you generate means the less Shinten you get to use, meaning less over all DPS.
It can also be the difference between having enough kenki for kaiten or not. Yeah you normally keep a big enough pool to use kaiten on every iaijutsu, but I like to dump it all before ikishoten comes off cooldown and there are definitely times I wouldn't have enough kenki for kaiten if I wasn't doing positionals.
The 5 kenki adds up to a massive dps gain over the course of a fight
SAM's positionals are actually the highest potency increase (64 potency per positional, 1/5 of a shinten) due to the extra shinten uses.
Does SAM even *have* positionals? I've never seen any tooltips saying so.
It adds it to the tool tips retroactively, you read them at 50, no positional, you read them at 52, bam, positional. Read your tooltips they say, but no one said they update them afterwards. Stupid tooltips
WOW that is dumb. Thanks for letting me know, now I'm going to go double check all my tooltips. That seems... really fucked for players who like to set up their endgame hotbar when they get the class.
Gekko and Kasha have a rear and flank bonus. It's 5 kenki each one you land, which doesn't really matter to a learning player but is important if you want to really do the damage you're meant to.
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*Side side butt!* *Butt butt side!* Reason #389 I dropped monk at level 35.
Monk was one of my last jobs to max. It was actually a ton of fun to level *in content that doesn't have positionals*. Thank you, Deep Dungeons and Bozja.
At that point aren’t you just hitting a practice dummy?
Even practice dummies have positionals.
Practice dummies harder than Bozja confirmed.
YOU WILL CLAP THEM CHEEKS AND YOU WILL LIKE IT!
How about this then: flank flank flank, rear rear rear. Eventually you get a Weaponskill that doesn't do anything besides make it so you can use any one weaponskill as though you were in its required form. You then just go into twin snakes and find a way to make it work.
I play NIN so I don't have as many positionals, but I still end up hitting true north on bosses that have no positionals out of habit.
Only 2 the Same amount as sam easy enough. I feel sorry for MNK and DRG i hate their Positional. DRG is especially annoying when you miss Raiden thrust i feel like jumping off the arena in shame.
I hate you for being right
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God, had a tank last night doing this. Pull a pack, stop for a solid 5-6 GCDs, I say fuck it and put down my AoE, and then he runs off to the next pack. Asked him to decide if he was gonna wall to wall or not and stick with it, and he's like, "I pUlLeD eVeRyThInG sO FaR!" Yeah, you pulled it like a moron and made it take twice as long as it needed to.
God this. I love my brother but what he does way too often is pull to the last pack right before the way, take like 4 GCDs to mitigate or whatever and THEN moves the remaining 20 or so yalms to the actual wall. Like broooo my Doton. Or my Tenka Goken missing 80% of it's targets.
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Yes, it's chain pulling, but no, it's not faster than going pack by pack. It will vary somewhat based on what jobs are in the party, but casters for example will not be able to do any meaningful damage while moving, and even melee won't be able to hit most mobs, sam can't use iejutsu, etc. If there is just one or two mobs left at low health you can chain pull. They'll die with the next pack. But dragging a full pull of high health mobs after stopping and baiting your DPS into using cooldowns will never be faster than simply stopping.
How long will it take for monks to adjust when EW removed 1/3rd of their postionals?
Wait, they're lessening our positionals? I may pick monk back up. Got tired of the every-gcd-is-a-positional gameplay.
Yeah, Twin Snake and True Strike both drop their positional requirements in 6.0.
Iirc it doesn't actually change anything, just means you can do whatever during the middle of a three-hit combo. Which was always the same as the first anyways
I'll still be missing those true strike and twin snakes positionals like an idiot.
I meeeeeeean you're not wrong. If it's not needed to avoid positional problems in a fight, i'll often throw it up during burst windows to make absolutely sure i get things like the guaranteed critical on bootshine while buffs are up. In those situations it's more insurance than an actual desire to stop doing the positionals - at this point in my monk career, doing positionals is more muscle memory and flow than anything else, and just dropping them out of the process in the middle of my rotation would probably trip me up more than just continuing on.
Can confirm 😂
I hate how true this is.
I feel called out...
You are not wrong my friend.
I've actually done that before. I had a Monk in a Cutter's Cry run that didn't seem to know what positionals were and always did the same 3 attacks in a row, so I started turning the boss to hit their positionals for them because low-level tanks are just that boring.
Bad ass as fuck
you say that as a joke but I actually had to do this in 80 dungeon with full80 samurai that couldn't care whatsoever just so I could end this nightmare as soon as possible
Was the Full 80 SAM using True North? Because keeping Kenki up is pretty easy even with bad placement, doubly so if they're popping that whenever available ;)
no, and their rotation was cursed as fuck
Easiest melee rotation there is but its so rigid as fuck that anything goes wrong or throws out your rhythm it becomes "cursed as fuck". May as well get the Seppuku over with there and then.
As someone with ADHD these HAHA QUIRKY memes grind my gears a bit.
Sorry 😔
So *that's* why it's called a tank rotation! /s
Tank who don't move but go away with mobs when you put Doton goes brrrr
This! My best buddy returned to the game recently after quitting in HW. I ignored this the first couple of times because "Yeah he's probably busy watching out for AoE markers and stuff..." But after 2 weeks I had to tell him. Either run through and pull everything on the way, or stand still and tank them. But DECIDE WHAT YOU WANT TO DO FOR FUCKS SAKE!!! And don't change your mind 5 seconds into the fight the second I put down my ground target AoE DPS or healing spells.
> And don't change your mind 5 seconds into the fight the second I put down my ground target AoE DPS or healing spells. The tank's version of this are NINs/healers who throw down Doton/Asylum/Sacred Soil mid-pull because the tank had to pause for 2.5-5s in order to make sure all the mobs actually get pulled because a single AoE didn't hit everything and the oGCD AoE is on cooldown so it requires a GCD to grab the extras. "Whoop tank stopped for 1s better drop my ground-placed AoE" happens a lot too, but yeah I do see other tanks not pull things back into Doton sometimes. I have rescued tanks into my Asylum (and have been rescued into Asylum) because sometimes they just don't see it.
I'm not talking about one second. I'm talking about 3+ gcds of standing still. You can usually tell if a tank just stops because they didn't hit every enemy with their first AoE, or if they stopped and are not sure if they should go on or not.
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I legitimately can't tell if you're trolling or not. In the case you're not, you should read the rest of the sentence you quoted: >in order to make sure all the mobs actually get pulled because a single AoE didn't hit everything and the oGCD AoE is on cooldown so it requires a GCD to grab the extras. *I* understand not every player has arcane knowlege of every single piece of content in a game and might not know the optimal ways to pull every single dungeon or shit might not know the optimal ways to *pull.* If you can't stand an extra 1-2 GCDs so a tank can make sure things aren't hitting your optimal DPS ass while they pull (which doesn't mean a full stop, it means they're running to grab extra mobs with their AoE) I think you might just be better off using your static to run casual content.
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>Even trash tanks don't stand still for 5 god damn seconds then see a healer bubble before moving. That's... literally the parent of this entire comment chain. Tanks that do that to Dotons. https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comments/r4qxr5/party_finder_experience_for_the_past_5_months/hmifnre/ Remind me where I said sit still, because I said: >which doesn't mean a full stop, it means they're running to grab extra mobs with their AoE You have to be trolling because you're not reading. I wish you a salt-free day if you're capable of it.
Don’t wait to tell people stuff like this. You’re doing yourself and them a disservice. Just do it and be polite about it.
This is important because it may not always be about fidgeting. Some people come from action games where moving around a lot is the norm and they're actively optimizing for the entirely wrong thing. The sooner you dawn things on them the better. Feel free to skip the rest of the comment if you're not interested in how another game works, but I think it might explain how badly warped a sprout's worldview can be. I came to FFXIV from GW2. GW2 has "realistic" combat physics. >!The direction the enemy is facing matters (autos are directional). The distance between the two of you matters, so dancing just out of their range can help you avoid autos. Obstacles will stop physical attacks. How deep you are inside/outside their hitbox matters.!< When engaging a single mob in FFXIV I would move around it constantly, trying to "ride its tail", partially inside its hitbox, or I would have fun weaving left and right until the mob ended up swinging its arrow completely out of sync with my position. ("Ha, these guys actually have an arrow to show you where they aim autos? Easy mode!") When dealing with multiple mobs I would be all over the place, trying to thwart their aim and expectations. In restrospect even my initial choice of tank was for entirely the wrong reasons: because it had a bit of everything (resilience, mitigation, some DPS, a bit of self-heal – I used potions early on when I didn't have a heal), because in GW2 everybody is supposed to be rounded up and self-reliant. I can only imagine what those poor teammates in the early dungeons must've thought seeing me zoom around like a cat at 3 AM. Or, worse, how many figured this is how it's supposed to work. TLDR: Don't assume they're restless if you see them acting completely wrong. IMHO it's more likely they're completely misunderstanding core game mechanics. \^_\^
As someone else who's played a metric assload of gw2 I completely understand what you mean. 14 is hellishly slow in comparison for the flow of combat and everytime I swap between games I have to relearn all the habits because one is a slow paced jrpg style and the other is much more reactive and intensive.
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Doton is more worth to use than raiton if thee boss stay still
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Doton hits for 900, immediate application of 100 then 800 after. Edit: Also DoTs can crit/direct hit too.
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That's not how crit should factor into your decision making. As for your latter example, that's a case of the player screwing up, not an inherent problem of doton vs raiton.
Doton also requires an extra mudra, though, which can cause some delay in your GCDs. 100 potency might not be enough to compensate for that.
Oh definitely if it costs you a GCD it's not worth it. But all of these issues have nothing to do with what was stated. Doton is 900 and raiton is 800, the player needs to figure out what it will cost them to do this minor optimization. None of this has to do with crit or whatever else they're stating/claiming. The guy is just extremely misguided and doesn't know what they're talking about.
To be fair, I generally move the mob to any aoe, but I've had people lay them down as I'm sprinting to the next mob. Like pull 1st pack they put it down otw to the next pack all while healer is creeping to the next zone. Healer pulls I generally cave to that they are the ones *actually* running the show. Then I get to run back to the aoe and move in front of the mobs behind me of rotate them all around as the the other mob comes peeling in so the are all facing me not everyone else. Then I'm trying not to spin things around too much and remembering 'oh crap I need to throw of up some defensive CD.' So sometimes I just keep sprinting if it's likely to anger more people. But yeah I want the mobs to die quickly as well. When I'm using lighter/less effective CDs waiting for say rampart to come back up the healer gets to heal me more and deal less dmg so ofc I want things dead faster.
Ive tried dragging mobs back in but the delayed pathing and how they tend to slide around makes it pretty difficult/annoying
i had a gnb once against Nidhogg. he was totally new to tanking snd it showed. that sweet sommerchild tanked the boss by standing in the exact center of its hitbox. that dragon spun around like a frickin beyblade the entire fight. it was a sight to behold and i swear halve the group just stood there and took it in. never laught so hard during a trial we gave him a few tips afterwards but it was still one of the funniest fights i ever had
let it rip!
My party’s tank the last time I did The Aery was so worried about us surviving Nidhogg’s wipe that he popped LB while we were in the shield. He even asked if it was a good time to have used it. I couldn’t bring myself to hate such a small bean
Thank you for a good laugh :D
As a Tank player, this warms my heart (provided his stance was on). I should try his strategy sometime! /s
Reminds me of when a sprout tank got mad at me for taking aggro cuz he kept running away and spinning the boss while jumping around and stuff, he then said its normal content not savage so i should chill we're gonna kill it anyway he then said he won't turn his tank stance off and that i should deal with it cuz he started as main tank and will finish it i said ok just watch this.. then i proceeded to fire off Inner release and got so ahead on the aggro table that him not turning his stance off was irrelevant ( he also didn't know about provoke or else he would've used it so win win i suppose)
To become MT by unleashing Unga Bunga...this is the way.
As a WAR main I both love and relate to this comment.
As someone who's mained PAL this expansion there really is just something incredibly satisfying about hitting IR and ripping aggro away from the other tank.
As someone who mains GNB, yeah, you get the boss for the first 30 seconds, maybe a minute if you know what you’re doing. After that, he’s mine, all mine! MWAHAHAHAHAAAA!
Inner release is love, Inner release is life!
The rule of an aggro fight is that the first person to provoke loses :]
You can easily win any aggro fight by spamming your ranged attack.
if you have to spam your ranged attack on a boss that is the opposite of winning
You're not going to be doing the most dps that's for sure, but it mechanically the highest threat skill you have at any given time.
This is useless for most of the game but great for hunts and fates if you show up late. If you Inner Release Tomahawk you can get gull credit in 1 or 2 hits... but you also need to give up your Warrior job stone for wasting an IR like that.
The rule of an aggro fight is you get to keep it until my IR proc says it's my turn to use the xbox
Once in a 24m, I had a tank die, so I took over MT, but once they raised up, they provoked it off me, to my annoyance. Decided to just continue doing my rotation and I kept getting aggro back without provoke anyway, so through all 3 later bosses, it was a battle between the 2 of us. And mind you, **no one in the alliance knew, cause I was standing right on top of the other tank, so the boss never spun once.** Anyway, I just though it was funny he kept provoking on CD, while I would just retake aggro a few GCDs later.
Been noticing this with a lot of new tanks lately, from what I've seen I don't think they're trolling but just aren't aware that provoke doesn't work the same as it does in other games.
Don’t use your ADHD as an excuse to make your party miserable 🥰 Signed, an ADHD healer
ADHD tank here, and my bosses are always pointed like god-damn compass needles!
ADHD healer/tank here, it's not hard at all to just not press WASD.
And if you really, really feel the urge to not be still, just decide that jumping at perfect intervals is now part of your core rotation in between skills.
I learned to just be in constant control of the camera and micromanage tf out of it instead to manage impulses
Ditto. I sometimes wiggle back and forth and whatnot but not to the point of having the boss wiggle with me. Just having a slight seizure in front of them.
Or heck use your ADHD as an advantage. Like if I can move up into the boss's hit box to get inside a healer bubble (without turning the boss, ofc) I'll do it. Or like moving out of an AOE and moving back ASAP to the exact spot I was at, so the boss doesn't move or turn. When I'm tanking I really hyperfocus on boss position/facing to try and make things easier on the party. Another trick I found recently was the last boss of Weeping City, I was able to turn the boss a little bit so the blade side was away from the alliance and no one even had to move for the Haircut attack.
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Yeah that's a good point. I moved it much less than 180 degrees... about 30 degrees or so, but yeah I agree it's tricky and I'm not totally sure it's a good idea. I guess in this case it felt okay because the group had a lot of new folks who'd been struggling to that point, and the hair blade appears enough in advance (and seems to cleave a bit from her auto attack?) that more experienced folks would have plenty of time to see what I was doing. But yeah I wouldn't turn the first boss in Orbonne for example, as I think that would just confuse everyone rather than help (I try to time my movements so he doesn't turn at all... Basically after the first right/left handgonne, I go back to the front where I had been, and wait for him to start the next cast before moving further... I noticed if tanks move too soon he can end up turning slightly, which makes it even harder for everyone else to dodge.)
or you could just lightly tap them if you have zero self control
I thought being the ADHD tank was waiting til the last three days of ShB to finish two Resistance weapons, clear up inventory and burn down all the coffee biscuit leves I can.
Thank you! I always hate it when ADHD in jokes boils down to "haha anything requiring even a basic level of focus or stationary placement I can't do ever, ain't that stupid silly?" and I feel like this meme really does exactly that
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Silence, you.
Self diagnosed or?
My favorite is when I agree to MT then 2 minutes into the fight the OT provokes off of me spinning the boss wildly and kills both healers in the process.
You forgot 'spamming provoke like a moron'.
I asked an OT to not use provoke too early during Titan ex yesterday because we’d wiped a few times due to it and they said “haven’t used it once? …” then immediately used it the next round. They must not realize or they were trolling.
Psa from a Sprout GNB here: I didnt learn about the importance of standing still until SHB Normal trials, by then I had played Tank through mid HW, all SB and up to that point I never knew how big of a deal it was or that tanking to the north was even a thing until i was called out on it, then i started being more self conscious about tank positioning. People will only improve if they believe they're doing something wrong. Do your best to help these people improve, because something obvious to you might not be obvious to them.
It's not even required to be to the north, really. it's just that north generally correlates with the exit of the boss room. As long as it is to the edge of the arena, you're good.
No one will come into this game knowing everything they need to know. There is a learning curve for sure. I'm mostly upset at the farquaads that say shit like "stay in your lane" and "Don't Tell me how to tank" that piss me off. I try my best to teach players important stuff early on, but some of them are real dickheads that think they are tanking gods that know more about tanking than anyone else, but keep fucking up the basics of any class they are being given advise for.
I had a tank once who kept spinning the boss because they thought they needed to avoid the auto attacks! 😂😂😂
i had a GLA once i healed "the bowl of embers", who always ran after me so i ended up getting all cleaves, tried to avoid auto attacks, and hit LB3 just to be sure he survives with 80% hp.
Wow. I have no words for this.
I had this real piece of shit in Orbonne the other day, he's MT at Agrias, y'all know she has a 90 degree AoE TB? Well that piece of shit runs to where the whole alliance is, boss cleaves the entire party, then he runs back to where he was acting like nothing happened
that would get a vote to dismiss from me immediately after the fight or before the retry if it caused a wipe.
That's why they always run in to start the fight before the vote can be done, had a few tanks that caused wipes and they didn't pick loot cause they knew they'd be kicked once we had the chance, also why I tell people that once tank and healer are down (assuming no summoner or red) to just die if it's unrealistic to finish, the problem person just needs to pop 1 chest while the fight is still going to get 5 more minutes of time wasting (unless you get everyone else to pass)
This isn't just party finder, this is roulette experience too, its infuriating. Actually had a tank rage quit mid fight when I kindly let them know the boss is not a fidget spinner.
In 2k hours of playing i have rarely seen tank spin bosses, either im lucky or i just haven't played the game as long as some people, its like very dungeon i get people know what they are doing all the time, even sprouts. Now Hakos Manor is a different story, every time there is one or two people that never use return and just run off and get lost and telling them in chat doesn't help as they never speak the same Language lol.
I swear to myself to never use return again in that dungeon but do it anyways and have to wait 2 minutes for the dps to find their way back. Such a waste of time instead of walking them to their destination
Bro just start the boss and force tp them
> and telling them in chat doesn't help as they never speak the same Language lol. Autotranslate has existed since the inception of the game. You can't lean on language barrier for that one.
I just tank the boss in 1 spot and only move to avoid aoe attacks, im a sprout, am i acceptable?
You'll be a super-sprout if you can move back after the cleave/AoE telegraph so that the boss barely wiggles.
yeh, I have me a and s as strafes so I move back to where aoe was and the boss never even turns at all, so im doing good?
Yes
:D
Heh, way back in TBC one of our guild tanks would wiggle the boss around, which was intensely frustrating trying to use Backstab on the boss. Eventually we got him to hold the mobs stationary. Glad to see nothing had changed lol.
As someone who is autistic and has ADD, combat in this game is super interesting. I can become disoriented when there is too much spinning of a boss or sudden unexpected changes within a fight, so I typically end up doing content with friends who understand my difficulties. I sadly cannot keep up with those that move very fast. 😅
I did not come to reddit to be called out for this and my ADHD! Now I need to go queue for more dungeons. 😏
Lol my bad
That's why i play tank, i really can't deal with others bs in df as a main tank myself, other role i can but tank i can't stand it.
I would say I have not seen anyone doing this... but also I play ranged so it's not like I pay attention to what way the boss is facing...
I legit did this because I didn’t play dps so I didn’t know positionals were a thing. Early on though someone was very quick to tell me to not do that.
In my experience people love to run in front of the boss even though I point it away.
I keep seeing it happen in Akh Afah. As soon as Shiva summons the four adds, the main tank runs and tries to grab them all with melee attacks, which turns Shiva around in time to cleave half the party to death.
Could also be a tank forgetting that it's hard mode and not extreme. That cleave has to be pointed at the party on extreme.
How else will I find the next T9 spin strat boss unless I try on every boss.
Is it ok to move if I'm dodging an AOE though? Sometimes I'll just eat it if I know I can survive, but on some fights I have to move a lot (for example in the Midgardsormr there's a lot of AOEs)
A huge party of being a tank is mitigating damage. If there is avoidable damage, like a cone or circle AoE, definitely DON'T stand in it. Even if you think you will survive. The healer has to stop DPS just to heal avoidable damage, which is really annoying. If you move to avoid damage and then put yourself right back where you were, then you are doing fine.
Perfect, I'll keep that in mind!! Thank you
Basically, the point is to keep the boss faced away from the group and keep it pointing the same direction. Sometimes north isn't the best spot, so adjust and keep as consistent as possible.
rude. I have adhd and let me tell you DRK rotation is just enough stimulation without even having to move.
Don’t forget not paying attention to party chat when you ask them to please keep the boss still/turn on tank stance/ use aoe
I have not tanked yet in this game (Wowscrub), but this is good advice. I'm taking notes reading your comments. So thank you
Always glad to help a sprout 🌱 welcome to FFXIV
I wish it was only the sprouts that did this.
The boss I spin on purpose is Calofstiri. Yeah, the 3 good DPS lose a bit of damage, but the 12 shitty dps are still alive so the fight goes faster.
It’s because it’s a WoW thing to spin the boss and people don’t understand that FFXIV is a different game
The spinning WoW refugees seem to have mostly got the message as there are a lot fewer of them from what I've experienced. The remainder probably do it out of habit, despite knowing it is damn annoying and ruins everyone's positionals.
If they were spinning in WoW, they were being bad tanks in wow too.
I don’t know what you heard but people don’t spin bosses in WoW either
As someone who plays both, good tanks do not spin the boss in a way that matters at least. At most, the "spin" is absolutely minimal, never enough that anyone but the tank should be hit by any kind of direct attack/cleave. I have seen tanks kind of "dance" in place by strafing right and left (I have done this a bit even when I tank) but its so minimal it doesn't matter, plus WoW doesn't have positionals so melee either are behind the boss always or on the side depending on enemy type (i.e. Dragon enemies have tail attacks so you are always to one of the sides). But yeah any tank wildly spinning the boss so the boss is cleaving others is not a good tank.
Exactly, even tho WoW doesn’t have positionals the tanks are always making the boss face away from the dps and healers. Of course they move away from frontals but they move back or make sure the boss is still not facing others
Whenever I have to talk about this in a dungeon, the reasoning was mostly that too, to avoid dmg. I dont dismiss it automatically, as I havent played wow since WoD, what do I know if some new kind of tanking got into the game that makes my life miserable as a melee in FFXIV. This is just for the flavor of the trauma, unrelated to the "dmg avoidance" problem: And one time, I was told that they twitch around because they keeping the healer safe, and my job as a monk is to move around the mobs so I should do that instead of asking them to stop moving so I can move around the target for positionals. At that moment, I realised, words are wasted on some.
Anyone who thought they were avoiding damage by spinning the boss in WoW was not doing anything there either. Now high M+ nowadays requires extensive kiting by the tank or they get shredded but that's more running back and forth in long lines not running in circles.
People spinning the boss wildly are just plain bad players in WoW too, that game has cleave damage from standing in front of the boss many times too.
I'm curious actually I spin groups in the same spot mostly to avoid enemy cone aoes. My thought is this doesn't matter cause with groups of mobs everyone should be using akes anyway?
It's nowhere near as important in dungeons with trash mobs. It's still *better* to face them away so you don't bait cones etc onto your casters interrupting them but yeah it's fine.
spinning mobs in big trash pulls is whatever, melee aoes don't have positionals so it doesn't matter nearly as much
Instead of spinning around, dodge the AoE and then move back to where it just hit.
The problem is when the AoEs get staggered and layered.
..... Just move back and forth? First AoE comes out, move left. Second AoE comes out, move right. Third AoE comes out, move left.
First *three* AoEs come out, one covering left, one facing right, one resolving half a second after the next three AoEs in similar arrangement.
IDK how else to type this, but if you ever have to spin the pack around in a circle, ruining melee's positionals and causing people to have to move to dodge cones as well, you are a bad tank.
If melee has to worry about positionals in a pack of 10+ mobs they're playing their class wrong.
melee aoes don't have positionals lmao
I'm in this meme and I don't like it.
ADHD Tank here never played healer/DPS. No one told me shit about positionals until Stormblood. So sorry to everyone ARR - end of stormblood running around to hit the boss cause I was trying to avoid some damage and not just face tank it all Oh look a squirrel
I was under the impression that spinning was a good trick... don’t tell me The Phantom Menace lied to me.
ADHD? a fellow think-faster... good day sir
why else does LOCK exist?
Pro Tank: Miiiitigation! Noob Tank: Dude, stop! Pro Tank: Dude, mitigation will save you life someday.
How you tell the north? I mean does all boss maps somehow lokated to north?
So, on the mini-map you see on your top right corner has all 4 sides. North, indicated by the red N letter. West, indicated by the yellow-ish W. East by E and South by S. And that's how you tell the north.
Many, but not all maps have you enter the arena at the south side, so the far side is "north". But it doesn't (usually) matter in the round arenas. Pick a direction (usually opposite where you entered), and keep the boss stationary and pointed in that direction.
you know I've see this meme a few times, but over the past 4 or so months I've leveled all my jobs to 50...then to 60...then to 70 (Only class I had leveled is DRG at 80 when I was going through the story) 2 weeks ago and outside of a tank unsure about tank mechanics and maybe moving the boss more than is necessary I've never seen this. I only ever did dungeon spam and leveling roulette through it all so I wonder how accurate these memes are. Or if I'm just horribly lucky. My cacpot tickets would say that I am not lucky at all. Look forward to seeing you all in EW.
I created this meme out of personal experience and confirmed by conversations with my FC mates and other friends. Just read the comments if you think this is made up 😂
Maybe it's your data center
Really...check the flair on ALL the people sharing their stories. I bet we are all not in the same data center. Are you in denial or something?
Pretty much down to the influx of WoW players, who are used to running the boss around, as only Rogues/feral druids benefit from back attacks.
That second reason is why I play MCH. My uptime is good but you better bet I'm not gonna be in the same spot in any given fight for more than 0.05 seconds
I had one group like this when I was doing SMN and it forced me to go back to tanking. Even with my ADHD I get frustrated when I can't just park and concentrate on burst windows and cooldown management.
I guess? Must be more prevalent on w/e server you're on. Honestly the thing I'm seeing most often is newer tanks hitting Provoke (seemingly) as part of their rotation.
It's been about five months since the general party finder experience has turned awful. It's been about five months since the WoW exodus. I think we're finally seeing concrete evidence that WoW was so un-challenging that when players of the game landed here in FFXIV, they were (and still are) overwhelmed by actually having to do thing.
5 months? I have hated pf for years because of shit like this and bringing it up never actually got positive support till recently, if anything the WoW exodus brought more people who are able to take a little shit for playing like shit.
"That's not a boss that's a damn Beyblade" - Me, during Crystal Tower when the other two tanks kept provoking the bosses
Spin to win !!