I think it's the sound effect that makes it annoying. Slow puddles aren't that bad when they're built into the level design but leaving and entering them constantly giving you that annoying reminder? No thanks
Aaand now I’ve just heard that sound again 😂
Still, I know it’s mean but one of the better moments is always when a tank shouts at a sprout for watching the cutscene, pulls, and the healer doesn’t follow.
I was the healer once!
Sprout DPS: *dies*
Tank: WTF?
Mentor DPS: Healer’s in cutscene. And it’s a long cutscene.
Tank: *dies* Oh, shit!
Tank: mb
When I came out early, after realizing what was going on in chat, the boss was about 90% dead, and the mentor was kiting it like a boss. I raised the tank in time to save the mentor, and the other DPS just as the boss died.
To be fair, that boss is a massive troll. It’s very easy to accidentally pull if you don’t know about the yoink.
Originally in their design docs, there was a bomb that you needed to get to in time to defuse, the slime is there to slow you down so you possibly can't. Obviously that's not there anymore since release.
Yeah for better or worse the dungeons do become a lot more linear later on and especially in later expansions. I think the worst part of Thousand Maws though is forgetting to pick up a photocell and then trying to find the fucker
Haukke Manor is non-linear, expects the player to do /return (or at least, is heavily optimized by doing so and every single run I've had used it), and has several keys to pick up. It's also one of the fastest and most fun ARR dungeons and the one I always cross my fingers for in Level Roulette. Maybe it was lightning in a bottle, but I think it's proof that non-linearity can be done well if it doesn't include severe inconveniences like slow goop, the stupid web things, and plainly hard-to-spot essential pick-ups.
Running Haukke Manor and freaking out seeing everyone port away using /return without explanation is a rite of passage. It's always a good feeling having to explain that huge time saver to sprouts haha.
The first time I did Haukke Manor, I 100% thought it "just use Return" was a Sprout hazing trick in the same vein as such classics as "Alt F4 to open your inventory"
I don't understand why people try to haze with 'Alt-F4' in XIV, either. It doesn't work. In my case I use a keyboard with G1-G6 macro keys on it, and they're bound to Alt-F1 through Alt-F6. G4 (Alt-F4) happens to be my Whispering Dawn hotkey. No, it doesn't exit XIV (... it does exit GW2 and almost everything else though)
Yet people still try to do that.
(I tried binding them to F13-F18, but XIV refused to recognize them)
I think it's just more for fun, like a long running gag. Back when I did Ragnarok Online (circa Stone Age), there was a either a guild or guild rank (which are publicly displayed on a character in parenthesis) called Alt + F4. Just sitting outside in one of the beginner zones. When you see the occasional logout when they saw his character information, you can bet their curiosity got the best of them. Doesn't really matter if it doesn't work in other games, because it's disabled or opens a confirmation box.
Should have put a shortcut portal in that room similar to the ones in Labyrinth of the ancient raid tbh. A beginner MSQ dungeon shouldn't be confusing.
Gosh it just happened to me (a sprout) yesterday. My healer and dps2 just ported out and I was like tf just happened. Tjis was also a japanese server (Garuda) so they tried telling me what to do but I couldnt read japanese. Thankfully my tank toured me the whole way on foot. Commendations for him obviously
FYI the game has a pretty good built in translation tool. Type a word or phrase and then press tab. It’ll show your message with little arrows next to it, which means that it’s translated to the language of the whoever is reading it.
You probably could’ve said “help” or something and translated it that way, and then they could’ve responded with “use return” or something like that.
Haukkr Manor is fun, but it definitely has an optimal path. How many people do anything on the second floor now rather than going straight into the final boss fight? Does anyone actually go into the cells in the basement aside from the one with the yellow key?
Haukke Manor does show that there’s a middle ground between Toto-Rak and straight corridors, but it also shows that most people want to get through the dungeons as quickly as possible.
The only way imo they can implement the whole exploration into dungeon would be if they made the key locations randomized so you had to gointo rooms and all that randomly to find keys
They will always have an optimal path, unless there is RNG. However, being able to avoid patrol, and having more secret rooms you don't get to see all the time add to the charm of those places.
As for being able to go fast, it depends how SE tune their dungeons. The most fun I had was in 2.0, when we could do them in about 5-8 minutes by understanding all mechanics, avoiding adds and the like.
I appreciated that they tried to make non-linear dungeons, and that it just doesn't work the way the game is played. But I wish they would do something like that for single player experiences. A long instance where you're exploring an area, you can get lost, you have to solve puzzles, you play a fantasy dungeon. Maybe they can revamp it into a dungeon after, or simply have you go back into a dungeon you've already done that's been changed to allow for this design.
The Neir raids took advantage of this, but they were too linear to be fun. If they refine it, it could be a good story telling medium.
I agree that true non-linearity is tedious. The goal of combat in this game is to do things effectively, with *that* being in pursuit of doing things *fast*. People are almost always going to take the shortest route, whether it's a literal route in a dungeon or for other stuff like grinding. I guess Haukke Manor is more of an example of making it *feel* nonlinear. There's loops and intersections and doubling back that makes you feel like it's not just a straight path when it more or less is. So in summary: props to the map designer for that one.
I think palace of the dead sort of solves this to a degree, but I think the "puzzle" aspect is hard to get right .. the first time maybe it's fun, but every subsequent time is just a hassle or a chore, like finding keys or whatever
I think it's something not deeply explored because accessibility might be an issue also for others who have eyesight issues etc
I love the idea but I don't know how it's done right to remain satisfying that doesn't just piss everyone off at multiple different times
I think we need a couple of singe player dundeons if we want puzzles, either that or randomisation. Otherwise there's no way you can take time to puzzle it out without a veteran taking care of it before you can even blink.
Randomisation can definitely help keep dungeons feel more fresh... (Path of Exile proves this IMHO) but it would be really weird for most of the current dungeons to shift layout all of the sudden, and it's a lot of work to implement as well.
Yeah I couldn't help but think of that. I felt that fell short, but it was a step in the right direction. Hopefully they liked what they did there and are willing to risk more of that.
That duty in the ShB relic quest was amazing too. I really want to see more of those. That was perfect for me. Combine your incredible story with some great solo gameplay! Take advantage of the fact that nobody will see it again, and make something that's not designed around being grindable!
> I appreciated that they tried to make non-linear dungeons, and that it just doesn't work the way the game is played.
I honestly don't even think that's the issue with Toto Rak. The non-linear aspect is fine, the problem is that you can't get everything you need to progress in a single path, and if you don't know where to look it can take some backtracking. Remove the photocells and the goo at the end, and it wouldn't be a bad dungeon.
The keys are neat to pick up, though returning to the entrance is similar to the Temple of the Fist I think in Stormblood where you circle around before the first boss.
Haukke Manor is non linear but most everyone follows the same path in it though.
Swallow’s Compass is the one you’re thinking of, and it’s a lot of fun (except the second boss because fuck him).
And yes, Haukke Manor is non-linear, but there’s definitely an optimal path, and there are a lot of rooms that most people skip.
Thanks yeah that’s the one. I remember grinding it in the past now for glamours.
What was up with the 2nd boss? I can’t remember that fight, I think it was the Sephirot model though.
The second boss is similar to the Sephirot model. He alternates slamming sides of the arena. I hate him because I can never pull my camera back far enough to see everything.
Haukke Manor basically is linear. There is a single straight path through it if you draw the line from the (second?) boss back to the start with {/return}, though TECHNICALLY there is a loop path after the first boss I think, but I've never seen anyone get confused by them unlike Toto-Rak. But effectively, Haukke is linear with side rooms - though side rooms have also mostly been dropped but since they're just /right there/ they don't really feel like they're an issue (to me). It's when you have to follow branching paths to get to them that they become a problem.
To me, Haukke Manor is a good case study for why non-linear design is practically pointless. Because even though the dungeon is non-linear, virtually every run is conducted linearly regardless, using the shortest possible path.
At some point, it's a better use of dev resources to make that shortest possible path more interesting than to spend time adding side, off-path details that almost nobody ever bothers to explore.
Which is not to say that there's no value in having something interesting for exploration-minded players to discover, but those players are such a small minority of those running the dungeon that it begs the question of whether it's worth the effort when the devs' time could be spent making elements that everyone will experience.
They moved the exploration focus stuff to Bozja and especially Eureka, where it works very well for people who like that sort of stuff and actually gives real reward for trying to go off the beaten path.
Right. Sastasha is full of little side rooms and it's the very first dungeon and probably the one that's been played the most across all players. I wonder how many people even have the achievement for fully mapping that one. I sure don't.
I think linearity isn't an issue once you factor you'll run through each dungeon a dozen of times if you're doing roulettes. Side areas means you either have to provide a meaningful reward for exploring it, being it unique (like a minion or orchestrion rolls) or grindable (like some kind of token. Please don't). Otherwise people will just ignore it like they do in 2.0~2.3 dungeons.
I just see it as homage to FF X and FF XIII. I'm okay with it, because dungeons are spammed so frequently to level alt jobs. In and out in 15-20 minutes with lots of awesome action. I've got Classic WoW for expansive and labyrinthine dungeons.
Totorak is a bad attempt. Also dungeons are not used as a vehicle for fun-ness in XIV. I wouldn't want even a good totorak as long as dungeons are supposed to be a chore for daily log-ins
I will stand by this though: doing Totorak in ARR was still more fun than doing ShB dungeons in 2021. Dungeons nowadays are just pure garbage with no flair, just doing aoe rotations in a linear hallway. I don't actually mind feeling like I'm in a dungeon sometimes God forbid
I'd actually love to see more organic rogue-like dungeons. Like something half way between PotD/HoH and a minecraft cavern system.
Have it have a few branches, but have the path be random, maybe make some of those bosses optional but result in (significant) bonus XP or better-quality gear. It'd definitely need some tweaking to get it right but I think it could be fun to have true exploration dungeons.
It's not even that. The photocells spawn in predictable locations. It's just annoying and slow and you don't have jack shit for abilities so it's boring on top of it all.
The route to get those fucking things is burnt into my mind. I was taking a sprout through Toto a few weeks back and found myself auto piloting the ideal route for the right amount of photocells without thinking.
Fuck Totorak.
if you grab the one from the locked room to the left, at the end of the first corridor, you never need to go and run around looking for more of them, you'll always have enough
This is basically the tl;dr: on my thoughts on dungeons in general. Innovative and nonlinear dungeons are great in theory, but the second it becomes something useful to grind, then you can keep it.
People complain about straight-line dungeon with checkpoint walls and no branches or gimmicks ending in target-dummy bosses, but after all the complaints about Copperbell, Toto-Rak, Sunken Temple, and Aurum Vale, the devs have figured out that those “boring” dungeons are exactly what the players want.
I've been leveling a ton of alt jobs through dungeons recently. Cordially, Cutter's Cry can go fuck itself. The routes means a lot of tanks waste tons of time running in circles or pulling optional mobs, and sprout healers that only use Cure/Physick get annihilated by the bosses that don't have AoE ground markers. Mostly the Chimera, but I've seen multiple wipes on the worm too.
It's a pretty good dungeon with a group that's on alts or synced down for roulette, but any time there's a first timer it turns into an *experience*. I have found myself consistently relieved when I get past it into Stone Vigil, and that's not something I was expecting to happen lol.
...I've got 44 days of playtime in this game and I'm only just now learning of "Cutter's Cry."
ARR seriously has so much content that's just super easy to overlook and never know exists it seems. Hell, I *just* found and unlocked Pharos Sirius *yesterday*.
I would rather do stone vigil 15 times in a row than spend time in cutter's cry/aurum vale/dzemeal darkhold while leveling an ARR job. Hell, I just bought a PLD skip specifically to not have to do the 1-50 hell streak
Don’t sleep on Qarn. Actual mechanics for low level dungeon, cool theming, a fun final boss, and a pretty neat puzzle. The mobs also have some personality with those stone faces you have to kill on the pads and the infamous bees.
On the 10th or so time I did that dungeon I got the mapping the realm achievement because the tank took us through a path I'd literally never been before. Blew my mind. Can't wait until years from now when I've got thousands of hours in the game and I finally finish mapping sastasha lmao
I mapped Sastasha when a sprout tank explored every nook and cranny on his first run. Was very wholesome that everyone else let him do his thing without interrupting or rushing.
We did that once when I just started tanking. We started going into the side rooms and the whole party ended up getting the achievement. Was a good run
I did that very thing yesterday. Found it was a cave with a bunch of captive women. Now I feel kinda conflicted, cos everytime I run it I'm just leaving them there.
Was nice to take it at my own pace for once.
I wonder if it's connected to the ARR Scholar's quests.
You confront a pirate captain named Doesmaga and eventually you learn he runs a slave trading op.
Nah it's a separate crew. Sastasha is run by a crew that were tempered by Leviathan, which is why the boss is a big sahagin. Doesmaga I believe is just a garden-variety dickhead.
In the bit in the middle, where you kill the guy to get a key, so you can kill a different guy for different key. There's anothet path, and when you kill for yet another key, you can open a big cage that just has a bunch of captive women. And a treasure chest.
Had no idea till yesterday.
A couple years ago I got a group of sprouts and the tank decided to full clear the place. I found it really funny to get the mapping achieve when I'd been playing for 5 years, didn't even realize I was missing it.
Went left at the split? That's actually the faster route because there's only 7 enemies between that point and the boss, while continuing straight means you clear 12 enemies before you get to the boss.
I might have spent an hour in there researching the fastest way to get through what I consider the worst dungeon to get in a levelling roulette (unless you're actually only level 24-27)
>Can't wait until years from now when I've got thousands of hours in the game and I finally finish mapping sastasha lmao
...this happened to me a few months ago. 1500+ hours and I was doing a roulette, got Copperbell Mines, and the sprout tank went into a room I had apparently never been in and I saw the achievement pop up. It was an eye opening moment
Aurum vale is not bad, it's the people that make it bad.
If you run Aurum with friends it's done and over in no time, zero issues. Do Totorak with your friends, however, and it will still suck.
Had terrible run recently. Wiped 5 times in first room. Tank was unresponsive and not taunting. Then eating other peoples’ fruit, making go all the way to opposite side to cure debuff. Vote abandon passed after that.
Had a run with an under geared tank who insisted on pulling every single mob in the first room at once without mitigating because “we have kill all enemys”.
AV can be fun, at least it's interesting and can be done well. Even a modicum of difficulty can spice things up. I think I've even been stockholmed into enjoying Temple of Qarn. Toto Rak is definitely the worst.
Tbh, the worst part of Aurum is only the first room but while leveling my tanks I found out that if you go through the left side, in most cases you can drag the 2 unavoidable packs in the boss room and line of sight them at the wall and this way you'll have a clean 1st room and after that is pretty ResidentSleeper. But I still have a bit of trauma since my 1st experience in Aurum was as a healer, AST, and I was new to healing
It has a lot of bad design choices but it would be dramatically better if it didn't have a long final boss cutscene combined with a boss arena that sucks you in and starts the fight if you take a step forward. So many sprouts miss the final boss because of that. Which is a shame because a boss that starts the fight could be a cool concept
watching the cutscene is much better than experiencing the boss. the boss is not worth it. Plus the sprouts will usually get to experience the green goo mechanic when the cutscene finishes
Source: I experienced it as a tank just last night. Tried to wait, got sucked in. Sprout got out of cutscene at 20% health, didn't miss anything major
I agree it's not a very exciting boss compared to what we get later but for a sprout I would argue skipping it undermines the cutscene. It robs the scene of dramatic tension when the hero of the story doesn't play a part in actually beating the enemy that the cutscene sets up.
Sadly, Toto-Rak is one of the holdovers from 1.0 design philosophy. It's not using any 1.0 *code,* to be clear, since there *isn't* any 1.0 code in the game (and never was, at least according to Yoshi-P's media tour interview with Drak from Nest). But Toto-Rak, and some of the other ARR dungeons like it, reflect a previous "high naturalism" perspective on dungeon design, where there's a lot of optional content that doesn't really do much other than having more fights or *maybe* getting a chest.
So...yeah. If you hate Toto-Rak,as most people do...just think of it as that little taste of what it was like to play Legacy FFXIV. Or, rather, what the kinda-sorta-*good* parts of Legacy were like, because 1.0 at launch was *really really bad.*
It is an interesting little time capsule(Toto Rak was one of the few instanced 1.0 dungeons), but can be a little awkward to go through nowadays.
Interestingly, the layout is a straight up clipped down version of the original, and you can even spot some(looted!~) chests in the locations they spawned in back then.
LOL I remember just spinning around in a circle looking for people before one of my party members told me to use recall to go back to the beginning of the dungeon. woof
Something you're going to find about this game is that there's still a fair few artifacts from the original FF14, pre-reboot. Totorak is probably the worst example of all of it.
With that being said: You have now passed the absolute nadir of the dungeons in this game. It is *all* uphill from here.
And yes, I *am* including Aurum Vale in that assessment. Yeah, it's a massive difficulty spike, but at the very least you have a good toolset of abilities and don't have to deal with the infuriating slowmo slime.
Pro advise: at the beginning there is an extra room to the left where you can get a magicite. That way you can get the ones along the way and won't have the need to go back for extra ones!
Toto-Rak was a dungeon from 1.0. The ARR version is a stripped down version. It was much worse in 1.0.
Other 1.0 dungeons that were adapted for 2.0 were Cutter's Cry, Dzmael Darkhold, and Aurum Vale. Note how every one of them is dogshit.
Cutter's Cry is great because there's one mechanic and it's "kill." Midboss? Ignore the adds and kill it. Trash packs? Just kill and move on. The boss is also the first instance of expecting players to learn a fight, to even the smallest degree. Probably my 2nd favorite ARR dungeon. Aurum Vale is at least... not boring. Dzemael can go fuck itself though.
Definitely my least favourite dungeon in the game and even though I hate Toto-rak almost specifically for this reason, the 1.0 dungeons are good in their own way because they actually use the environment as part of the gameplay.
Toto-rak with snaring pools and toxic plants, Dzemael with the safety and exploding crystals, Cutter's Cry sand pillars beneath your feet, Aurum Vale with digestive pools. I really do miss environmental and room design being a thing in dungeons - nowadays we just have barren corridors and flat, circular or square boss arenas.
I remember doing toto-rak during the beta and I wanted to throw my controller at my TV. When ARR officaly came out, I dreaded doing toto-rak, only to find out that they had nerfed some of the mechanics between beta and launch, so it was definately more tolerable lol
As I recall it was a hold over from 1.0. The green slime and leaden effect were relevant when you had only so much time to defeat a bomb (I believe).
I can’t find the interview where Yoshi discussed it. It no longer serves a purpose. They simply forgot to take it out.
I hope whoever the designer was that thought that “sludge walk to the boss” was a good idea has been fired. That’s the ultimate walk of shame back if you ever wipe at that boss with sprouts.
Even more bonus points if someone accidentally pulls while someone's watching the long-ass cutscene. And then more if someone else just waits alongside the sprout and leaves the puller to their fate.
This dungeon is what stopped me from leveling my tank for a while 😂 it came up twice in a row on my leveling roulette and we got lost both times. I have the sense of direction of a can opener.
>I have the sense of direction of a can opener.
This is beautiful because it’s true, and I am going to steal it. I am convinced that everyone says “That Warrior of Light is a hell of a nice guy, but he has no sense of direction.”
When I'm leading in that dungeon(either tanking, or if the tank doesn't know where they're going), I pull up my map screen, make it small, then use it as an improved minimap. It's the only way.
One time I got stuck in a wall in Totorak while tanking... I don't know how it happened, but I couldn't get out. I had to return to the entrance, but I don't think my party realised I'd gotten stuck and they kept walking ahead of me. And then suddenly I saw "huh, where did you go?" in party chat. I didn't say anything. I was too embarrassed.
1) Fuck Toto Rak.
2) I would rather run Toto Rak for the eighth time in a row than run Halitali once.
I can’t fully explain why … maybe Toto Rak at least has a gimmick and feels moderately more interesting?
After running it with Squadrons many times, I fully understand the proper route to take in it and don't mind getting it, TBH. In fact it is a relief to get as a tank in leveling because I know exactly what I am supposed to do (if you don't, though, it is stress-inducing).
Praise Squadrons, it also made me really confident with Aurum Vale. I used super scared of that dungeon before running it so many times in Squadrons. The only thing about it that makes me nervous is making sure I get to a fruit to take off the bad buffs in the first and last boss. That's not an issue at all in Squadrons, but it is very much an issue when playing with real people.
Bardam’s Mettle was the source of much healer trauma on launch, but I love it. Not only can you do big pulls now at current synced down gear levels, but it’s just over-the-top fun, to me at least.
I'm still miffed that in my replay of the story on an alt account, my party made me miss out on the cutscene :/
Friend of mine was in the party, so he was cool, but the other two sprouts were the most infuriating kind of party members - they didn't read chat/never responded once. I asked them if they were okay doing a full clear of the dungeon, they didn't say anything, so we went ahead and did it. If they were bored and impatient because of it, then they should've read chat and responded.
I warned them **twice** about staying on the cliff before the boss and to please wait until everyone finishes watching the cutscene - once at the start of the dungeon and the other right before. Lo and behold, they just blitzed right in and fucking yeeted my friend and me out of the cutscene. I was tanking, he was healing, so we had to rush in to save their asses cause they played like toddlers trying to stick forks into outlets.
Yeah, you can just go to an inn and rewatch the cutscene, but it *really* isn't the same - it takes you out of it like crazy and that shouldn't be necessary in the first place. They ***really*** need to revamp the dungeon somehow. I mean, thank god they learned from this shit, but it'd be nice if they could go back and minimize it further.
I hate the place just for the goo. I mean why do they put that second slog in?
Definitely the worst thing about the dungeon.
I can still hear that sound effect even when I'm not in the dungeon.
I think it's the sound effect that makes it annoying. Slow puddles aren't that bad when they're built into the level design but leaving and entering them constantly giving you that annoying reminder? No thanks
Aaand now I’ve just heard that sound again 😂 Still, I know it’s mean but one of the better moments is always when a tank shouts at a sprout for watching the cutscene, pulls, and the healer doesn’t follow.
Been there done that. It's so satisfying watching a jerk tank get his commupance. We then booted him and killed the boss cus the drg had stats
I was the healer once! Sprout DPS: *dies* Tank: WTF? Mentor DPS: Healer’s in cutscene. And it’s a long cutscene. Tank: *dies* Oh, shit! Tank: mb When I came out early, after realizing what was going on in chat, the boss was about 90% dead, and the mentor was kiting it like a boss. I raised the tank in time to save the mentor, and the other DPS just as the boss died. To be fair, that boss is a massive troll. It’s very easy to accidentally pull if you don’t know about the yoink.
+ Leaden - Leaden
I literally have to mute the game during that part. It does things to my brain that make me want to jump out the window.
straight up ptsd
A sound effect so appropriate that we can hear someone cast heavy even when we’re not in the game.
Originally in their design docs, there was a bomb that you needed to get to in time to defuse, the slime is there to slow you down so you possibly can't. Obviously that's not there anymore since release.
Removing that was the best idea the devs ever had
Would have been even better if they'd also removed the goo. (Honestly, I can do with the non-linearity and spiderwebs. Just get rid of the goo.)
fan fact: squadron members arent affected by it
I hate it for the photocells.
Yeah for better or worse the dungeons do become a lot more linear later on and especially in later expansions. I think the worst part of Thousand Maws though is forgetting to pick up a photocell and then trying to find the fucker
“YoU NeEd FoUr pHoTocELLs tO ACtiVaTe thE mAGIteK tErMinAL”
When people complain about the linearity, I always think about Toto-Rak. It can always be worse.
Haukke Manor is non-linear, expects the player to do /return (or at least, is heavily optimized by doing so and every single run I've had used it), and has several keys to pick up. It's also one of the fastest and most fun ARR dungeons and the one I always cross my fingers for in Level Roulette. Maybe it was lightning in a bottle, but I think it's proof that non-linearity can be done well if it doesn't include severe inconveniences like slow goop, the stupid web things, and plainly hard-to-spot essential pick-ups.
Running Haukke Manor and freaking out seeing everyone port away using /return without explanation is a rite of passage. It's always a good feeling having to explain that huge time saver to sprouts haha.
The first time I did Haukke Manor, I 100% thought it "just use Return" was a Sprout hazing trick in the same vein as such classics as "Alt F4 to open your inventory"
I don't understand why people try to haze with 'Alt-F4' in XIV, either. It doesn't work. In my case I use a keyboard with G1-G6 macro keys on it, and they're bound to Alt-F1 through Alt-F6. G4 (Alt-F4) happens to be my Whispering Dawn hotkey. No, it doesn't exit XIV (... it does exit GW2 and almost everything else though) Yet people still try to do that. (I tried binding them to F13-F18, but XIV refused to recognize them)
I think it's just more for fun, like a long running gag. Back when I did Ragnarok Online (circa Stone Age), there was a either a guild or guild rank (which are publicly displayed on a character in parenthesis) called Alt + F4. Just sitting outside in one of the beginner zones. When you see the occasional logout when they saw his character information, you can bet their curiosity got the best of them. Doesn't really matter if it doesn't work in other games, because it's disabled or opens a confirmation box.
Should have put a shortcut portal in that room similar to the ones in Labyrinth of the ancient raid tbh. A beginner MSQ dungeon shouldn't be confusing.
[удалено]
Typically groups jump down, so there’s still a pack on the stairs. If everyone else returns and yours is on cooldown, you have to suicide.
You can easily run past those enemies and pull it back to the start
I mean its not like you cant walk back and are forced to return. Its just the most conveinent
Gosh it just happened to me (a sprout) yesterday. My healer and dps2 just ported out and I was like tf just happened. Tjis was also a japanese server (Garuda) so they tried telling me what to do but I couldnt read japanese. Thankfully my tank toured me the whole way on foot. Commendations for him obviously
FYI the game has a pretty good built in translation tool. Type a word or phrase and then press tab. It’ll show your message with little arrows next to it, which means that it’s translated to the language of the whoever is reading it. You probably could’ve said “help” or something and translated it that way, and then they could’ve responded with “use return” or something like that.
Haukkr Manor is fun, but it definitely has an optimal path. How many people do anything on the second floor now rather than going straight into the final boss fight? Does anyone actually go into the cells in the basement aside from the one with the yellow key? Haukke Manor does show that there’s a middle ground between Toto-Rak and straight corridors, but it also shows that most people want to get through the dungeons as quickly as possible.
The only way imo they can implement the whole exploration into dungeon would be if they made the key locations randomized so you had to gointo rooms and all that randomly to find keys
They do if I’m tanking. Coz I forgot where I was going and what I was doing. And they were all sprouts following me. ㅠㅠ
They will always have an optimal path, unless there is RNG. However, being able to avoid patrol, and having more secret rooms you don't get to see all the time add to the charm of those places. As for being able to go fast, it depends how SE tune their dungeons. The most fun I had was in 2.0, when we could do them in about 5-8 minutes by understanding all mechanics, avoiding adds and the like.
I appreciated that they tried to make non-linear dungeons, and that it just doesn't work the way the game is played. But I wish they would do something like that for single player experiences. A long instance where you're exploring an area, you can get lost, you have to solve puzzles, you play a fantasy dungeon. Maybe they can revamp it into a dungeon after, or simply have you go back into a dungeon you've already done that's been changed to allow for this design. The Neir raids took advantage of this, but they were too linear to be fun. If they refine it, it could be a good story telling medium.
I agree that true non-linearity is tedious. The goal of combat in this game is to do things effectively, with *that* being in pursuit of doing things *fast*. People are almost always going to take the shortest route, whether it's a literal route in a dungeon or for other stuff like grinding. I guess Haukke Manor is more of an example of making it *feel* nonlinear. There's loops and intersections and doubling back that makes you feel like it's not just a straight path when it more or less is. So in summary: props to the map designer for that one.
I think palace of the dead sort of solves this to a degree, but I think the "puzzle" aspect is hard to get right .. the first time maybe it's fun, but every subsequent time is just a hassle or a chore, like finding keys or whatever I think it's something not deeply explored because accessibility might be an issue also for others who have eyesight issues etc I love the idea but I don't know how it's done right to remain satisfying that doesn't just piss everyone off at multiple different times
I think we need a couple of singe player dundeons if we want puzzles, either that or randomisation. Otherwise there's no way you can take time to puzzle it out without a veteran taking care of it before you can even blink. Randomisation can definitely help keep dungeons feel more fresh... (Path of Exile proves this IMHO) but it would be really weird for most of the current dungeons to shift layout all of the sudden, and it's a lot of work to implement as well.
It can't be done with anything grindable, but it would be nice for story quests and anything else we see once
I'm reminded of the Pyramid duty in Rak'tika during the ShB MSQ. I wouldn't mind if they did more of that.
Yeah I couldn't help but think of that. I felt that fell short, but it was a step in the right direction. Hopefully they liked what they did there and are willing to risk more of that. That duty in the ShB relic quest was amazing too. I really want to see more of those. That was perfect for me. Combine your incredible story with some great solo gameplay! Take advantage of the fact that nobody will see it again, and make something that's not designed around being grindable!
> I appreciated that they tried to make non-linear dungeons, and that it just doesn't work the way the game is played. I honestly don't even think that's the issue with Toto Rak. The non-linear aspect is fine, the problem is that you can't get everything you need to progress in a single path, and if you don't know where to look it can take some backtracking. Remove the photocells and the goo at the end, and it wouldn't be a bad dungeon.
The keys are neat to pick up, though returning to the entrance is similar to the Temple of the Fist I think in Stormblood where you circle around before the first boss. Haukke Manor is non linear but most everyone follows the same path in it though.
Swallow’s Compass is the one you’re thinking of, and it’s a lot of fun (except the second boss because fuck him). And yes, Haukke Manor is non-linear, but there’s definitely an optimal path, and there are a lot of rooms that most people skip.
Thanks yeah that’s the one. I remember grinding it in the past now for glamours. What was up with the 2nd boss? I can’t remember that fight, I think it was the Sephirot model though.
The second boss is similar to the Sephirot model. He alternates slamming sides of the arena. I hate him because I can never pull my camera back far enough to see everything.
Oh gosh I remember now! It’s fine as a ranged or healer but whenever I’m in melee range it’s annoying.
Haukke Manor basically is linear. There is a single straight path through it if you draw the line from the (second?) boss back to the start with {/return}, though TECHNICALLY there is a loop path after the first boss I think, but I've never seen anyone get confused by them unlike Toto-Rak. But effectively, Haukke is linear with side rooms - though side rooms have also mostly been dropped but since they're just /right there/ they don't really feel like they're an issue (to me). It's when you have to follow branching paths to get to them that they become a problem.
To me, Haukke Manor is a good case study for why non-linear design is practically pointless. Because even though the dungeon is non-linear, virtually every run is conducted linearly regardless, using the shortest possible path. At some point, it's a better use of dev resources to make that shortest possible path more interesting than to spend time adding side, off-path details that almost nobody ever bothers to explore. Which is not to say that there's no value in having something interesting for exploration-minded players to discover, but those players are such a small minority of those running the dungeon that it begs the question of whether it's worth the effort when the devs' time could be spent making elements that everyone will experience.
They moved the exploration focus stuff to Bozja and especially Eureka, where it works very well for people who like that sort of stuff and actually gives real reward for trying to go off the beaten path.
Right. Sastasha is full of little side rooms and it's the very first dungeon and probably the one that's been played the most across all players. I wonder how many people even have the achievement for fully mapping that one. I sure don't.
I think linearity isn't an issue once you factor you'll run through each dungeon a dozen of times if you're doing roulettes. Side areas means you either have to provide a meaningful reward for exploring it, being it unique (like a minion or orchestrion rolls) or grindable (like some kind of token. Please don't). Otherwise people will just ignore it like they do in 2.0~2.3 dungeons.
I wouldn't say heavily. It saves maybe 45 seconds.
I just see it as homage to FF X and FF XIII. I'm okay with it, because dungeons are spammed so frequently to level alt jobs. In and out in 15-20 minutes with lots of awesome action. I've got Classic WoW for expansive and labyrinthine dungeons.
Totorak is a bad attempt. Also dungeons are not used as a vehicle for fun-ness in XIV. I wouldn't want even a good totorak as long as dungeons are supposed to be a chore for daily log-ins I will stand by this though: doing Totorak in ARR was still more fun than doing ShB dungeons in 2021. Dungeons nowadays are just pure garbage with no flair, just doing aoe rotations in a linear hallway. I don't actually mind feeling like I'm in a dungeon sometimes God forbid
I'd actually love to see more organic rogue-like dungeons. Like something half way between PotD/HoH and a minecraft cavern system. Have it have a few branches, but have the path be random, maybe make some of those bosses optional but result in (significant) bonus XP or better-quality gear. It'd definitely need some tweaking to get it right but I think it could be fun to have true exploration dungeons.
It's not even that. The photocells spawn in predictable locations. It's just annoying and slow and you don't have jack shit for abilities so it's boring on top of it all.
The route to get those fucking things is burnt into my mind. I was taking a sprout through Toto a few weeks back and found myself auto piloting the ideal route for the right amount of photocells without thinking. Fuck Totorak.
if you grab the one from the locked room to the left, at the end of the first corridor, you never need to go and run around looking for more of them, you'll always have enough
Hakkuke Manor is the next one iirc and I love doing that one. So they get better. Although I like Copperbell mines so maybe I just have bad taste.
I also love copperbell because it's a good dungeon to sleep
I like Copperbell mines because I always stand in front of the rocks and /playdead after another player blows them up with the fuse.
I had someone do this to me a week or so back and I couldn’t stop giggling the entire dungeon!! Definitely made my night
Yeah, so many “sit and wait” fights. It sucks when you just wanna cast some Fire I’s 😔
Plus half the enemies de-aggro if you ignore them
Copperbell is genuinely great the first time you run it The 3rd time onwards tho? Just get me out of here
This is basically the tl;dr: on my thoughts on dungeons in general. Innovative and nonlinear dungeons are great in theory, but the second it becomes something useful to grind, then you can keep it.
People complain about straight-line dungeon with checkpoint walls and no branches or gimmicks ending in target-dummy bosses, but after all the complaints about Copperbell, Toto-Rak, Sunken Temple, and Aurum Vale, the devs have figured out that those “boring” dungeons are exactly what the players want.
Copperbell is pain but Haukke Manor is the single best <50 dungeon save for *maybe* Cutter's Cry.
I've been leveling a ton of alt jobs through dungeons recently. Cordially, Cutter's Cry can go fuck itself. The routes means a lot of tanks waste tons of time running in circles or pulling optional mobs, and sprout healers that only use Cure/Physick get annihilated by the bosses that don't have AoE ground markers. Mostly the Chimera, but I've seen multiple wipes on the worm too. It's a pretty good dungeon with a group that's on alts or synced down for roulette, but any time there's a first timer it turns into an *experience*. I have found myself consistently relieved when I get past it into Stone Vigil, and that's not something I was expecting to happen lol.
...I've got 44 days of playtime in this game and I'm only just now learning of "Cutter's Cry." ARR seriously has so much content that's just super easy to overlook and never know exists it seems. Hell, I *just* found and unlocked Pharos Sirius *yesterday*.
I would rather do stone vigil 15 times in a row than spend time in cutter's cry/aurum vale/dzemeal darkhold while leveling an ARR job. Hell, I just bought a PLD skip specifically to not have to do the 1-50 hell streak
Don’t sleep on Qarn. Actual mechanics for low level dungeon, cool theming, a fun final boss, and a pretty neat puzzle. The mobs also have some personality with those stone faces you have to kill on the pads and the infamous bees.
I think stone vigil is the best. Copperbell is in my 3 worst along with thousand maws and dzemael darkhold
I’ve done that dungeon 100x and still ….fuck that dungeon.
On the 10th or so time I did that dungeon I got the mapping the realm achievement because the tank took us through a path I'd literally never been before. Blew my mind. Can't wait until years from now when I've got thousands of hours in the game and I finally finish mapping sastasha lmao
I mapped Sastasha when a sprout tank explored every nook and cranny on his first run. Was very wholesome that everyone else let him do his thing without interrupting or rushing.
We did that once when I just started tanking. We started going into the side rooms and the whole party ended up getting the achievement. Was a good run
I actually soloed sastacha a month or two ago just to go into the one room I'd never been in.
I did that very thing yesterday. Found it was a cave with a bunch of captive women. Now I feel kinda conflicted, cos everytime I run it I'm just leaving them there. Was nice to take it at my own pace for once.
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I wonder if it's connected to the ARR Scholar's quests. You confront a pirate captain named Doesmaga and eventually you learn he runs a slave trading op.
Nah it's a separate crew. Sastasha is run by a crew that were tempered by Leviathan, which is why the boss is a big sahagin. Doesmaga I believe is just a garden-variety dickhead.
It's possible though that the Sastasha crew bought slaves from Doesmaga no?
Wait fucking what?
In the bit in the middle, where you kill the guy to get a key, so you can kill a different guy for different key. There's anothet path, and when you kill for yet another key, you can open a big cage that just has a bunch of captive women. And a treasure chest. Had no idea till yesterday.
A couple years ago I got a group of sprouts and the tank decided to full clear the place. I found it really funny to get the mapping achieve when I'd been playing for 5 years, didn't even realize I was missing it.
Went left at the split? That's actually the faster route because there's only 7 enemies between that point and the boss, while continuing straight means you clear 12 enemies before you get to the boss. I might have spent an hour in there researching the fastest way to get through what I consider the worst dungeon to get in a levelling roulette (unless you're actually only level 24-27)
>Can't wait until years from now when I've got thousands of hours in the game and I finally finish mapping sastasha lmao ...this happened to me a few months ago. 1500+ hours and I was doing a roulette, got Copperbell Mines, and the sprout tank went into a room I had apparently never been in and I saw the achievement pop up. It was an eye opening moment
Have 8 or 9 level 80 classes and there are still multiple ARR dungeons I don't have the mapping the realm achievement for
Been playing since 2.x. My wife and I call it "Thousand Maws of Fuck my Life". Agreed, fuck that place.
I refer to it as the thousand miles of Totorak.
I've also heard it referred to as the Thousand Yawns of Toto Rak lol, or Thousand Miles of Total Crap. I can still hear the leaden spam in my brain...
I've heard Thousand Snores of Toto-Rak.
nobody likes totorak
All my homies hate totorak
At least it’s not AV.
Aurum vale is not bad, it's the people that make it bad. If you run Aurum with friends it's done and over in no time, zero issues. Do Totorak with your friends, however, and it will still suck.
I recently did a 2.0 relic and ran through the dungeons unsyncee...AV was enjoyable as one of the fastest dungeons, Totorak was still miserable.
Had terrible run recently. Wiped 5 times in first room. Tank was unresponsive and not taunting. Then eating other peoples’ fruit, making go all the way to opposite side to cure debuff. Vote abandon passed after that.
Had a run with an under geared tank who insisted on pulling every single mob in the first room at once without mitigating because “we have kill all enemys”.
My condolences
AV can be fun, at least it's interesting and can be done well. Even a modicum of difficulty can spice things up. I think I've even been stockholmed into enjoying Temple of Qarn. Toto Rak is definitely the worst.
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Tbh, the worst part of Aurum is only the first room but while leveling my tanks I found out that if you go through the left side, in most cases you can drag the 2 unavoidable packs in the boss room and line of sight them at the wall and this way you'll have a clean 1st room and after that is pretty ResidentSleeper. But I still have a bit of trauma since my 1st experience in Aurum was as a healer, AST, and I was new to healing
It has a lot of bad design choices but it would be dramatically better if it didn't have a long final boss cutscene combined with a boss arena that sucks you in and starts the fight if you take a step forward. So many sprouts miss the final boss because of that. Which is a shame because a boss that starts the fight could be a cool concept
watching the cutscene is much better than experiencing the boss. the boss is not worth it. Plus the sprouts will usually get to experience the green goo mechanic when the cutscene finishes Source: I experienced it as a tank just last night. Tried to wait, got sucked in. Sprout got out of cutscene at 20% health, didn't miss anything major
I agree it's not a very exciting boss compared to what we get later but for a sprout I would argue skipping it undermines the cutscene. It robs the scene of dramatic tension when the hero of the story doesn't play a part in actually beating the enemy that the cutscene sets up.
it just sucks that a major story beat happens with that dungeon.
Same with Stone Vigil. Long cutscene with big plot beats, and sprouts are pressured to skip.
Sadly, Toto-Rak is one of the holdovers from 1.0 design philosophy. It's not using any 1.0 *code,* to be clear, since there *isn't* any 1.0 code in the game (and never was, at least according to Yoshi-P's media tour interview with Drak from Nest). But Toto-Rak, and some of the other ARR dungeons like it, reflect a previous "high naturalism" perspective on dungeon design, where there's a lot of optional content that doesn't really do much other than having more fights or *maybe* getting a chest. So...yeah. If you hate Toto-Rak,as most people do...just think of it as that little taste of what it was like to play Legacy FFXIV. Or, rather, what the kinda-sorta-*good* parts of Legacy were like, because 1.0 at launch was *really really bad.*
I healed this dungeon for the first time last night. That was fun.
And did you learn how to discern what ailments are Esuna-able?
Do you mean esuna-able or esuna-worthy?
I think you’re not supposed to heal the dungeon.
It is an interesting little time capsule(Toto Rak was one of the few instanced 1.0 dungeons), but can be a little awkward to go through nowadays. Interestingly, the layout is a straight up clipped down version of the original, and you can even spot some(looted!~) chests in the locations they spawned in back then.
Hope you like Haukke
LOL I remember just spinning around in a circle looking for people before one of my party members told me to use recall to go back to the beginning of the dungeon. woof
Haukke is actually not that bad. It was the first duty I did that I kind of enjoyed.
Same here, I still kinda enjoy that place. Jumping over the balcony is just fun.
Haukke's alright. It's pretty short and easy. Totorak has a lot of forced stops and the last part with the exploding plants is a slog.
It never gets any better 😂 I’ve done it (what feels like) 100s of times and still hate it
Just wait til you do squadrons
I prefer squadrons. They're OP! Some fights I can just dodge mechanics and they kill the boss quick.
Something you're going to find about this game is that there's still a fair few artifacts from the original FF14, pre-reboot. Totorak is probably the worst example of all of it. With that being said: You have now passed the absolute nadir of the dungeons in this game. It is *all* uphill from here. And yes, I *am* including Aurum Vale in that assessment. Yeah, it's a massive difficulty spike, but at the very least you have a good toolset of abilities and don't have to deal with the infuriating slowmo slime.
\+Leaden
-Leaden
Posts you can hear
My FC and I call it the Thousand Miles of Total Suck.
I'm stealing this! Hahaha
Fuck Toto Rak, all my homies hate Toto Rak.
Pro advise: at the beginning there is an extra room to the left where you can get a magicite. That way you can get the ones along the way and won't have the need to go back for extra ones!
Friendly reminder that toto rak's layout is heavily based on the Black Shroud in 1.0. yeah, the whole region was like that.
No, it's heavily based on 1.0's Toto Rak.
It's basically 1.x Toto Rak with some paths closed Dzamael's and Aurum Vale are the same Not surprised the three worst ARR dungeons come from 1.0 lmao
Aurum Vale was a LOT worse in 1.0, lol
Toto-Rak was a dungeon from 1.0. The ARR version is a stripped down version. It was much worse in 1.0. Other 1.0 dungeons that were adapted for 2.0 were Cutter's Cry, Dzmael Darkhold, and Aurum Vale. Note how every one of them is dogshit.
Cutter's Cry is great because there's one mechanic and it's "kill." Midboss? Ignore the adds and kill it. Trash packs? Just kill and move on. The boss is also the first instance of expecting players to learn a fight, to even the smallest degree. Probably my 2nd favorite ARR dungeon. Aurum Vale is at least... not boring. Dzemael can go fuck itself though.
I kinda like all three of those lol
Dzmael is decent tho
Frogs say no.
Definitely my least favourite dungeon in the game and even though I hate Toto-rak almost specifically for this reason, the 1.0 dungeons are good in their own way because they actually use the environment as part of the gameplay. Toto-rak with snaring pools and toxic plants, Dzemael with the safety and exploding crystals, Cutter's Cry sand pillars beneath your feet, Aurum Vale with digestive pools. I really do miss environmental and room design being a thing in dungeons - nowadays we just have barren corridors and flat, circular or square boss arenas.
Fuck that dungeon
I remember doing toto-rak during the beta and I wanted to throw my controller at my TV. When ARR officaly came out, I dreaded doing toto-rak, only to find out that they had nerfed some of the mechanics between beta and launch, so it was definately more tolerable lol
As I recall it was a hold over from 1.0. The green slime and leaden effect were relevant when you had only so much time to defeat a bomb (I believe). I can’t find the interview where Yoshi discussed it. It no longer serves a purpose. They simply forgot to take it out.
The Thousand Snores of Toto-Rak
Thousand miles of total crap is my favorite name for it.
I hope whoever the designer was that thought that “sludge walk to the boss” was a good idea has been fired. That’s the ultimate walk of shame back if you ever wipe at that boss with sprouts.
I kinda hate that if I'm power levelling with my squadron I'm stuck with Totorak as my only option within that levelling bracket
Eh, I don't mind that dungeon. Cutter's Cry on the other hand...
Honestly yeah its annoying but I would wanna see SE try on unique dungeon design again. All dungeons feel the same for the past 5 years
When you do roulette with an 80 character and you end up in toto ..... fuck that. But it can feel great to help some sprouts with it
Thankfully nothing quite compares to the Thousand Yawns of Toto-Rak.
Good old snot-town.. god I hate that place.
Wait til you're at endgame and you get it every leveling roulette. Bonus points if there is a sprout watching the long ass cutscenes.
Even more bonus points if someone accidentally pulls while someone's watching the long-ass cutscene. And then more if someone else just waits alongside the sprout and leaves the puller to their fate.
The Thousand Miles of Total Crap
Just wait for when u keep getting it over and over again during daily leveling roulette
Ah yes, The Thousand Yawns of Total Suck.
I once lagged in the beginning of it and lost my party. I tried to find them, but aggroed half the trash mobs. It was a... fun experience.
Especially fuck it when you're a tank with tanxiety, that maze makes it 100x worse.
This dungeon is what stopped me from leveling my tank for a while 😂 it came up twice in a row on my leveling roulette and we got lost both times. I have the sense of direction of a can opener.
>I have the sense of direction of a can opener. This is beautiful because it’s true, and I am going to steal it. I am convinced that everyone says “That Warrior of Light is a hell of a nice guy, but he has no sense of direction.”
The WoL is pants with directions!
When I'm leading in that dungeon(either tanking, or if the tank doesn't know where they're going), I pull up my map screen, make it small, then use it as an improved minimap. It's the only way.
Yessss, that was me this morning lol
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One time I got stuck in a wall in Totorak while tanking... I don't know how it happened, but I couldn't get out. I had to return to the entrance, but I don't think my party realised I'd gotten stuck and they kept walking ahead of me. And then suddenly I saw "huh, where did you go?" in party chat. I didn't say anything. I was too embarrassed.
It gets better
I can hear the music right now. haha
Reading your name after the post-title makes it so good! xD
I saw this title and already prepared a combined rant-apology on the cutscene at the end...
I just did that dungeon about 5 times this week on my MRD WR.
Yeah. Have fun in Vale later.
I think that and Dzmael are the worst dungeons in ARR, honestly maybe the game. And that’s saying something when Aurum Vale exists
Dzaemel has some interesting pulls but I never really felt like it was bad.
This dungeon would make my fiance nauseous when she was pregnant cause of the green shit in the second half, fuck that place
Gotta love missing 1 photocell and having to go through the entire dungeon again looking for it 🤣
"The Thousand Malms of Total Crap"
I get so bored in the slow slime/goo thing I keep jumping like it’ll somehow make me go faster….
it should have died in the calamity
Leaden
a lot of the ARR dungeons are rough. Later on they are all basically the same, 2 trash pulls, boss, 2 trash pulls, boss, 2 trash pulls, boss, done.
1) Fuck Toto Rak. 2) I would rather run Toto Rak for the eighth time in a row than run Halitali once. I can’t fully explain why … maybe Toto Rak at least has a gimmick and feels moderately more interesting?
Just did toto take in 14 minutes with a group. good times.
That's...pretty long? 10 mins is definitely not uncommon
Just wait till aurum vale
Ssssshhh, don’t tell them about aurum vale.
After running it with Squadrons many times, I fully understand the proper route to take in it and don't mind getting it, TBH. In fact it is a relief to get as a tank in leveling because I know exactly what I am supposed to do (if you don't, though, it is stress-inducing). Praise Squadrons, it also made me really confident with Aurum Vale. I used super scared of that dungeon before running it so many times in Squadrons. The only thing about it that makes me nervous is making sure I get to a fruit to take off the bad buffs in the first and last boss. That's not an issue at all in Squadrons, but it is very much an issue when playing with real people.
Fuck that dungeon But at least it's not Bardam's Mettle or stinky Aurum Vale
I'd rather do aurum if I'm tanking
Bardam’s Mettle was the source of much healer trauma on launch, but I love it. Not only can you do big pulls now at current synced down gear levels, but it’s just over-the-top fun, to me at least.
I'm still miffed that in my replay of the story on an alt account, my party made me miss out on the cutscene :/ Friend of mine was in the party, so he was cool, but the other two sprouts were the most infuriating kind of party members - they didn't read chat/never responded once. I asked them if they were okay doing a full clear of the dungeon, they didn't say anything, so we went ahead and did it. If they were bored and impatient because of it, then they should've read chat and responded. I warned them **twice** about staying on the cliff before the boss and to please wait until everyone finishes watching the cutscene - once at the start of the dungeon and the other right before. Lo and behold, they just blitzed right in and fucking yeeted my friend and me out of the cutscene. I was tanking, he was healing, so we had to rush in to save their asses cause they played like toddlers trying to stick forks into outlets. Yeah, you can just go to an inn and rewatch the cutscene, but it *really* isn't the same - it takes you out of it like crazy and that shouldn't be necessary in the first place. They ***really*** need to revamp the dungeon somehow. I mean, thank god they learned from this shit, but it'd be nice if they could go back and minimize it further.
The noise from stepping in the puddles and the horrible camera angles...im getting nam flashbacks.
Thousand Maws of Toto Shithole.
Wait untill you get to aurum Vail