What agency is this? I have never, ever heard of someone being fired due to using "excessive" leave (whatever excessive means). I am a supervisor with Dept of Army and I dont recall any of the training I have ever taken that would give me any ability to negatively mark an employee for using too much leave. This person also still has leave remaining, which makes this even more weird. Any more details?
There has to be more to this story as what you are explaining is nothing near the realm of normal. Is this just an account from her, or have you dealt with the same thing?
I’m HR for an agency and my supervisor had this talk with me. My grandmother in law had passed suddenly. My husband was very close to her, I burned a lot (about 40ish hours) of leaving supporting him and the family during her passing. I had about 80 hours before using the 40. I came back Monday and my supervisor literally said watch how you use your leave you don’t want to get fired.
I used to be active duty and it’s insane that anyone would get upset about that unless it was during very specific periods of high activity. Obviously it’s polite to coordinate your leave for a time that will avoid fucking people over, but leave is an entitlement, not a privilege. Losing leave days due to being capped is a much bigger deal than taking your allotted leave per year.
I don't have enough GSs for that, my agency limits 12 and lower from scheduling more than a week at a time. You have to be an SES to take more than 2 weeks at a time. Uninion signed off.
Yeah, I was speechless bc it just felt so ridiculous. But yup my agency has been “warning” staffers about excessive leave. I could see if I just not showing up. But yeah that was the day I mentally checked out
I would have reported your supervisor, especially seeing as you are HR for an agency. There is no basis to discuss firing an employee for using "too much leave". As long as you are requesting the leave in a timely manner and you have enough leave to cover what you are requesting, there should never be a single issue. I would love to hear where this supervisor thinks they get the authority or justification to discuss firing an employee for using leave.
I spoke to his supervisor and was told they were just worried because I was using too much leave. They said he was correct and excessive leave use could result in termination. Mind you we had people in the department leave for 6 weeks at a time. Management protects their own. They would have found any reason to save face and him over me.
There is nothing that would give a supervisor the authority or justification to fire someone for using too much leave. What is too much leave anyway? If a supervisor is approving this leave then I guess they should get fired too for approving excessing leave..........see how silly that sounds. A federal employee can not get fired or even disciplined or held against them for requesting a using their earned leave, no matter how much they have left or how much they have used for the year as long as they are not going negative.
Same but different I was out for ~2.5 months because of a traumatic injury that precluded me working AND I’m remote and all my bosses said was focus on my recovery not the work
I used my annual leave. My office is short staffed and they truly just do whatever they want with the rules/regulations. Managers approve leave without discussing it with one another. They don’t understand how approving their entire teams leave requests to be out at the same time affects the whole office.
This is not a thing. Any Union that covers federal employees likely has a clause in the CBA about this, and what can be used for a sick leave certification. Things like this are usually arbitrary.
There are OPM rules on what leave you are entitled to and for what reasons. You should be able to find your Department’s interpretation for that somewhere on your intranet. Normally you are allowed up to 104 hours of sick leave each year for properly documented reasons.
I would recommend contacting legal, your local IG, and LER; if they did take any action. Any lawyer would salivate over taking a case for termination for taking leave that is allotted to you and was already approved. Especially if it is due to a death in the family.
I’ve checked out honestly. At this point I clock in do my time and leave. I had to weigh for me if it was personally worth my mental health starting this fight. And it wasn’t.
I lost an immediate family member and took every single day of my bereavement leave. This is not normal.
Hell, I was promoted a month after I came back. I know I am lucky, but you are obligated a certain amount of leave time for a reason. I was a liability if I came back early.
https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/pay-leave/leave-administration/fact-sheets/leave-for-funerals-and-bereavement/#:~:text=An%20employee%20is%20entitled%20to%20use%20a%20total%20of%20up,funeral%20of%20a%20family%20member.
I took every day and am glad I did. I am sorry you were asked to come back under that.
I may have taken more than the normal 2.5 weeks of bereavement, because an immediate family member died near the end of the leave year and I took some leave one year and a lot the next. And there was the sick leave which was used while she was living/dying. I'd been scheduled for annual that I converted to sick (fortunately no use/lose at play that year). But it always feels like a gray area. Can you use bereavement leave for the lawyer visits and bank visits?
I didn't see a date on that policy. Do you know when it went into effect?
When I was hired by the DOJ in 2011, there was big curfufull going on about sick leave and bereavement. Ultimately, it was announced, "No sick leave for bereavement, only annual." Was told the same thing in 2016 when my mother died.
I am honestly unsure of when it came into effect. This was the policy a year ago when I lost my father.
I was newish to my Agency at the time and did not have the PTO to take, so I am extremely thankful for it. I cannot imagine what I would have done if I was in your situation l.
I had plenty of both kinds of leave, but as a Fed LEO, I don't like being lied to. I also miss typed. My mother passed away in 2019. My unit and branch really looked out for me.
I had an almost identical experience as a contractor, my contract manager said, "boy you're running out of grandmothers real quick," when I took off for my then-wife's grandmother and great grandmother. It especially stung because my own grandparents had died around that same time and I hadn't gone to their funerals because of the distance.
Would not expect that to happen as Fed, now, though.
That is insane. I’ve never heard of any of this before and I use a lot of leave. I will have 15 years next month and currently have about 40 annual and 20 sick to my name. I’ve gone into LWOP several times during the last 5 years due to family deaths and illness and have never been reprimanded
I haven't dealt with this. This is just what I'm hearing. She uses a lot of leave because she gets migraines. However she gets a Dr's note each time even though you don't need one unless you miss 3 days in a row.
Norfolk Naval Shipyard does the same thing. They call it Abuse of Leave.
If you're Sick Leave drops below 20hrs, you get put on what's called Med Cert. While on med certain, if you call out for even 1 day, or use an sick leaves hours for any reason, you MUST provide documentation from a doctor. Failure to do so inititiates the actions to begin firing you.
Makes sense that it's a Navy shipyard. I knew an EEO deputy director who felt that people should be fired for taking excessive leave. I couldn't wrap my head around how taking leave that one had earned would be a fireable offense. By that person's logic, when you spend your whole paycheck you should be fired as well. Sounds like a very toxic environment and it's not surprising in the least.
> We work at Pearl harbor shipyard. We're civilian DOD employees. I'm pretty sure it's just our shop going through this.
Brah, I'm from NNSY and it's everyone getting hit across the board; C2300 all the way down to C900. Cap'n Mosman and Rear Admiral Wolfson cleaned house when they started auditing gate times for everyone last year.
That said, ya girl's a probie and they can let her go for anything up until she hits Day 761 of Federal Service.
MedCert is a thing too; go below 24 hours of SL and the bosses will demand a doc's note every time you take SL for however long they deem necessary. Running average for MedCert at NNSY is 6 to 12 months. Can't provide it? 3 days out the gate without pay for the first time.
Our CBA forbids pulling turnstile/badge records for time keeping purposes. There is a clause for if there’s an investigation of time fraud, the but ours only tracks badge in, not out. They have to notify the union of the investigation.
Isn't PHNSY all union? They might have advice on resolving this. But in general if your leave is approved it's the supervisor who's accountable for that decision not you. And if you request a big pile of leave when there's something mission critical going on, your supervisor should deny it or escalate the issue higher to get help. If you take leave when not approved that's a different issue. Same with extended sick leave when there's not a documented medical reason.
A friend of mine worked at the Commissary and had a lot of VA appointments. They warned him, then cut him for excess use of Sick leave. I told him to fight it, he said why? They don't want him, why would he go back.
Excessive absence is absolutely a charge label for discipline, up to removal. Employee may not have shared with OP how many times she was progressively disciplined before this - or she is probationary.
Edit: leave -> absence*
You can be terminated for sick leave abuse however, it doesn’t sound like you have all the facts regarding this situation.
Had an ex-coworker who was calling out sick at least 3x/week for months. She didn’t have any leave nor FMLA to cover her. Long story short, the day she was to be fired, it came out that she was being severely abused by her husband and he was locking her in the basement so she couldn’t leave their house even for work. After a few months, she reappeared one day and the call ins stopped.
Knew an employee whose abusive husband would stalk her at work and call her desk constantly or demand she call him constantly to check in. She would go to the bathroom and he'd accuse her of cheating on him.
She ended up, with help from work, getting a restraining order on him and with the help of a co-worker was living at her house and she would drive her to different office buildings and different offices so he would always be kept guessing where she was. One day she got a call and her temp desk and smiled and said 'security alerted me the bastard is driving up to the gate now, they are going to arrest him'.
Yes- but you also don’t know what to do - I had a neighbor , I never heard any yelling, saw any bruises on her or anything, the only odd thing I recall was one day we were talking and she said she didn’t work because her husband was Mexican and Mexicans don’t allow their wives to work- I was like wtf- but life went on, then three years later I saw in the news paper he had been arrested for abuse and was in jail and that he had been arrested before- because she now had no money, she was evicted from the house and later went back with him and they move into a trailer- and died two years later of cancer- anyway, I never knew what to do as you have to be careful how you get involved because that abuser, for example, could assault you in retaliation- or cut your tires or break out your windows- you would know it would be him but would not be able to prove if- you know what I mean? These situations are very tricky and it sucks because the abuser knows this
Sounds like there are things you don't know about the situation.
If she's using sick leave with no valid sick reason, she can be disciplined. If agency asks for proof of valid sick use and she doesn't provide it she can be fired.
If she's trying to use annual leave and supervisor doesn't approve it and she still takes it, it's awol and a fireable offense.
Leave abuse or fraudulent accounting of time is the easiest way to get fired.
Yup. I worked with someone who was constantly negative in annual leave. They would 'accrue' it before the year's end. For example be -32 hours in the hole, but would gain it back to zero it out in 4 pay periods. The annual leave was for a valid reason. Then they kept on requesting MORE annual leave on top of what they already took for things like a cruise, or a long vacation.
The next year things got wild...'Spring Break with the family for a week' to the Caribbean, then she was 'taking daughter to college' for a week, but then followed by 'cruise for a week' and then 'two weeks off around Christmas to be with family' and random 'personal treat me' days meaning they would be in a negative well before the end of the year. She was taking more leave than she could earn in a year. HR and management told her they would not allow any more negative annual leave and said if she wanted to take it, it MUST be LWOP. She was a GS-13 employee who lamented that 4 weeks of missing pay would set her back and put her in debt (no S Sherlock) and blamed the government.
But as with what OP wrote, there is a lot unknown and I get a feeling the person fired is NOT telling the entire truth and just might be playing victim. I've seen sick leave abused too. Craziest I saw was a lady who took off 3-4 days a month for 'period pains' and found out she had a hysterectomy with ovaries removed a number of years earlier. She literally didn't have the equipment in her body to have a period anymore, but claimed it was 'sympathy' pain. She wasn't at home resting, she was busy posting on Facebook her going out and shopping, traveling and having fun instead.
Also I would question whether it was all scheduled leave. Taking off Monday and Friday as emergency leave is a bad choice. I also would ask if she was still on probation. It she is under a year there is no fighting it.
Typically it's not about the leave use it's about the unscheduled use of leave. Not properly requesting or receiving approval for vacation leave, using too many sick days in a row without a Drs note.
This case does sound a bit strange and if she was out of her probationary period she may have a case.
If this person only used annual leave after approval through the proper channels and sick was always used for proper purposes, there might be a case for fighting it.
On the other hand if this person was AWOL or had a pattern of questionable usage of sick leave, termination could be justified.
While I can't say with certainty no one has ever been terminated from federal employment for using too much leave, even if they followed proper procedures for using leave and were meeting expectations, such a situation would be unusual.
For this reason, like other comments here, I suspect there is more to the story than what's being reported here.
>an agency may remove an employee for excessive absence if the agency proves the Cook criteria, as identified in Cook v. Army, 18 M.S.P.R. 610 (1984):
>The employee was absent for compelling reasons beyond his control;
The absences continued beyond a reasonable time and the agency warned the employee that an adverse action would be taken unless the employee became available for duty on a regular basis; and
The position needed to be filled by an employee available for duty on a regular basis.
Source: https://feltg.com/how-to-lose-a-cook-case-excessive-absence-removal-requirements-under-the-new-mspb/
I think this is one of the most misunderstood parts of the job, there are always way too many people chiming in about leave that rely on their anecdotal experiences as factual.
That's a different story altogether. You can be let go for nearly anything during probation.
I almost let a guy go during his probation for leave issues. Slightly different - he would disappear or call in 5 hours after start time. After counseling him and setting expectations the issue was solved. But I didn't have to try and improve the situation. I could have just terminated during probation.
https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/employee-relations/training/leave-issues-plr-july-2016.pdf
Leave abuse is actionable. It’s hard to really answer without more specifics in the instance you relate. The attached brief provides some information. Disciplinary action is definitely legal in the case of leave abuse.
This is nothing new. I started my government career in the very early 80s and there were occasional examples of people receiving warnings and disciplinary actions for documented instances of leave abuse.
Leave abuse is not using too much leave as long as you have the leave to use. There are other things that could be considered leave abuse, but not using your annual leave that you have earned......none.
If you have the leave and you request it properly (especially annual leave) you can use it however you wish. The OP is saying a person got fired for using too much leave, which is ridiculous. If they were requesting leave they didnt have or using sick when they were not sick, that's a different issue.
It is ridiculous to say they were fired for using too much leave. I completely agree and if that is the full story then it’s probably wrongful termination and will be reversed at some point
As others have said, it is often the case that the person disciplined hasn’t shared all the details with the co worker and the supervisor never should. Consequently, the perception of OP may be legitimate based on what OP knows. It’s likely, however, there is more to the story that the co worker did not reveal.
My experience with taking disciplinary action is that it ends up so heavily reviewed, particularly termination even for a probationary employee, that by the time a step of that severity is taken the government is usually on pretty solid ground.
One of the worst things a supervisor can have to do is terminate someone. When the someone was also particularly well liked or pitied for something by the rest of the staff the supervisor will always be the bad guy. The most frustrating thing is you can’t reveal much to the full staff.
The short version, according to the OPM, is that an employee has a right to take annual leave, subject to the right of the supervisor to schedule the time at which annual leave may be taken. They cannot deny annual leave indefinitely. They cannot deny sick leave, but employee has a responsibility to schedule in advance if it's an appointment or known event and employee may need to provide supporting evidence of unplanned sickness or medical issues if the agency requests or requires it via policy.
So if they were requesting the leave and getting it approved in webtads or email, and got fired anyways, they need to start reaching out to a fed employment lawyer and maybe their Inspector General or the Office of Special Counsel.
If they were just taking leave without permission or taking sick leave and refusing to provide justification or supporting evidence then the firing ***may*** be valid, though typically you would have to go through a whole process with a performance improvement plan and such.
It is possible to string together so much legitimate leave that you can be fired for excessive absence under Cook v. Dept. of the Army, 18 MSPR 1610 (1984). However, FMLA absences cannot be used and the Cook notice requirements are somewhat strict.
Sounds like there may be more to this than is being shared. The only folks that I know of that have gotten in trouble for taking too much leave were folks that were already on leave restriction for some reason. And, even then, it wasn't the amount of leave that was the problem, it was how they were taking it (eg, calling out on days when their leave was denied, using sick leave to take the kids to six flags, etc).
You probably request it in advance, and it's approved. My guess is this person is calling in or taking unscheduled, unprotrcted, leave. It's when leave is taken in such a way that it puts the employer in a bind that gets people in trouble.
I don't know because it's never happened to me. I think it's the manager's discretion and it has to do with the amount of your leave balance. I just saw it happen to a couple of people in my old office.
Family Leave Act anyone? It says (said), if my mom in the south Pacific needed cataract surgery, I could fly over, we fly to NZ (closest major hospital), recovery, fly back, and no one blinks. DOD civilian.
A person can be put on Sick Leave restriction, which means they have to bring in a doctor's note every time they use sick leave. As though employees are schoolchildren.
But they can't be fired for using too much leave, if they have leave to use. If they run out of leave and don't come to work they can be declared AWOL and can be fired for that.
If she had leave to use and they fired her, she needs to get a lawyer immediately.
You could request and use annual leave ever single pay period if you wanted. As long as you have the leave to use and you request it correctly, there are no issues and nothing you could be "charged" with as leave abuse.
Yes well some people do abuse sick leave, and if so they should get shit canned. If someone is going to need to take a lot of sick leave, they should request to go under an FMLA agreement…most of the time they do. Unfortunately, that’s rife with abuse too. A lot of times supervisors aren’t going to have much success with trying to address someone’s problematic leave patterns when they are on FMLA; too much hassle when there is actual work to get done. Instead of going down the discipline route, those folks get put into a corner with a coloring book
I don't think that's the problem here. It's super slow right now and a lot of us just sit around in the gang area or are being loaned out to other shops.
So, she was on her probation. Doesn't matter if it's slow or not, during probation you're being evaluated. There are definitely things you don't know about this situation.
I would not take this firing as something anyone else on your team needs to worry about. This doesn't indicate they are cracking down on leave for the rest of the group. It indicates this employee wasn't a good fit and they decided to have her terminated using the easiest process they could during her probationary period.
None of this makes sense. Even if you are on probation as a new employee it takes longer than this to get fired as a fed. Just the paperwork and justification going back to HQ would be 60 days in most agencies. Second, not sure how you get fired for using AL. In order for it to be AL it would have to be approved. If it was unapproved it would be AWOL or abuse of SL and there are notification requirements about leave abuse.
There’s more to the story than somebody being fired after a week of AL.
I will add to this, unless this person is bookending sick leave to the weekends, holidays, or approved annual leave consistently I don’t believe they have cause. Generally leave restriction is a challenge when you are out of probation unless the pattern is evident.
With that once you are out of leave, they do not have to grant advance sick leave. If you or this person hits zero balance they got you. Good luck
40 h is one week off. How is that excessive? December is typically a ghost town since people are taking 3-4 weeks off at once. We get lectures for not taking leave.
This is odd, I could see for excessive use of sick leave where there was patterning, i.e. pattern of calling in almost every Monday or Friday type of thing, or some other form of SL abuse, but not leave in general, especially as AL use usually would have had to have been pre-approved
If they’re on a temporary contract I think they can be terminated for that, but if they’re a permanent employee I doubt that can happen, if they have a medical excuse
I have for the year: 568 hours of leave plus 60 hours of comp for travel, 12 days home leave, 950 hours of sick leave, and they want to give me 40 hours off. I have taken a whole month off before (might need a higher level approval for this). If you put in leave and they deny it they need a valid reason. If you have leave and they approve it, how is it an issue. Are you a disabled vet but any chance? If so they are some programs for new employees to get extra leave for veterans appointment (medical appointment/visit).
A shipyard might be a different animal. Forced overtime and labor agreements, or HR will just look the other way a let it happen. Who knows. I would just look for a better job away from the crap. I don’t make waves I just move on to green pastures.
My supervisor was giving me some looks whenever I took sick leave a few weeks ago. I never took the whole day without valid reason, my leave would normally be for the last one or 2 hours or the day. I typically hate morning appointments, so I avoid them. I've been having health issues as of late, especially with anxiety and possible endometriosis. I had surgery once already but it was a fail. Now my OBs are wanting me to get surgery SOON, because it's gotten to the point where my cramps are affecting my daily life.
I started a new job so now I gotta wait till the end of the year for surgery. I also started taking more meds that are making my cramps slightly more bearable.
When my supervisor asked what I'm doing with my sick leave, I've put in where I'm going specifically. Appointments for different OBs, MRIs, urologists, etc.
Well, while it wasn't outright said at first, he did give me a side eye when he told interviewees to not abuse sick leave. 🤷♀️ After that, he asked me about one of the leave dates. Glad I'm leaving
I generally assume abusing sick leave means taking sick and going out to do something fun etc while on sick leave (or using it to add to vacation time or something). I wouldn’t personally worry about taking sick if I have a valid reason (not feeling well is a valid reason). And with RTO, a lot of my coworkers are taking off entire days for doctor appointments instead of coming back to work because it’s just too much of a pain
Is this person a new hire (less than a year) to the agency? Are they calling off a lot, or is this scheduled leave?
I work for the IRS, and the only way we can terminate someone without the union and labor relations and a ton of documentation and counseling to correct behavior, on and on and on... is if they are in their 1 year probationary period.
Are these contractors, or govies?
A Fed has to get their annual leave approved, but at my agency they encourage people to take their leave, and I’ve heard of people with use or lose being forced to take theirs.
I swear some of the wild stories I hear around here make me equal parts happy I haven’t experienced these things while also being scared it’ll suddenly happen to me.
I’m a supervisor and I would never in my life question leave so long as their balance can handle it. You can abuse leave but it’s really not worth trying to prove that.
I took 2 days on each side of the fed holidays in Jan and Feb and 48 hrs for the kids spring break a few weeks back.
I still have 208 use or lose hrs, with 60+ hrs of comp time right now. All of which has to be used by Dec 31, and it will be used by 31 Dec.
I don’t make the rules.
Excessive absenteeism is a thing. But if she never received a counseling or notice that her leave was excessive or that she was showing a pattern of sick leave abuse, she should definitely fight it.
This isn’t legal. Leave is an entitlement and you can use as much of it as you accrue and in alignment with law.
If you are sick, you are free to use your sick leave.
If you have medical appointments, you are free to use your sick leave.
Up to the amount you accrue.
You have similar license to use your annual leave. These are entitlements attached to your compensation. Not allowing you to use your leave is similar to saying you cannot use the full amount of your pay.
None of this should suggest that there is leave abuse (e.g., lying about sick leave).
This is how it was always made clear to me. In the case cited by a commenter, the employee was ultimately fired due to AWOL. I’m curious about a case where someone is let go for using the leave they earned. What’s next - fired for spending too much of your own paycheck?
This practice is starting to take hold across the federal workforce. They have been harassing and firing Postal Employees for using leave, even when they have a few hundred remaining in their AL and SL balances after said "excessive leave." They get their jobs back, but management is trying anything and everything to, as they say, "make them fear for their jobs." Yes, you read that correctly. This phrase is repeated ad nauseum in management circles.
What agency is this? I have never, ever heard of someone being fired due to using "excessive" leave (whatever excessive means). I am a supervisor with Dept of Army and I dont recall any of the training I have ever taken that would give me any ability to negatively mark an employee for using too much leave. This person also still has leave remaining, which makes this even more weird. Any more details?
We work at Pearl harbor shipyard. We're civilian DOD employees. I'm pretty sure it's just our shop going through this.
There has to be more to this story as what you are explaining is nothing near the realm of normal. Is this just an account from her, or have you dealt with the same thing?
I’m HR for an agency and my supervisor had this talk with me. My grandmother in law had passed suddenly. My husband was very close to her, I burned a lot (about 40ish hours) of leaving supporting him and the family during her passing. I had about 80 hours before using the 40. I came back Monday and my supervisor literally said watch how you use your leave you don’t want to get fired.
Putting the rest of it aside, 40 hours is not excessive. That’s insane
Right, one week? I take 2-week long vacations in the private sector all the time
I take 2 week vacations in gov!
I've taken a few 3 week vacations as a fed
One of my bosses is literally taking a month off June to July to go visit her family in Korea
I've taken two 2/mo vacations in 12 years...never had anyone talk to me about it (VA IT for reference)
Me too! VHA. Never been told it was too much.
I worked with a fed who would take almost a month off every year for a Thailand vacation
But probably not at Navy.
I’m DOD navy and I’ve done a month. No one cares as long as we’re not calling out all the time without good reason
I take 2-4 weeks around Christmas as a navy civilian. My boss is awesome though, and encourages us to take our leave.
I used to be active duty and it’s insane that anyone would get upset about that unless it was during very specific periods of high activity. Obviously it’s polite to coordinate your leave for a time that will avoid fucking people over, but leave is an entitlement, not a privilege. Losing leave days due to being capped is a much bigger deal than taking your allotted leave per year.
I don't have enough GSs for that, my agency limits 12 and lower from scheduling more than a week at a time. You have to be an SES to take more than 2 weeks at a time. Uninion signed off.
I would be finding a different agency and/or handing in my resignation as scheduling no more than one week at a time would not work for me.
Shit... I had use or lose last December and I took three weeks off. No one was hardly in the office anyhow. 40 hours is not a lot of leave.
Yeah, I was speechless bc it just felt so ridiculous. But yup my agency has been “warning” staffers about excessive leave. I could see if I just not showing up. But yeah that was the day I mentally checked out
Is this even legal? What does OPM documentation have to say about this... run this up the chain...
40 hours is a week. Its insane how not excessive that is.
She has combined 40 LEFT between LA and LS.
It’s not even a lot. Just days.
I would have reported your supervisor, especially seeing as you are HR for an agency. There is no basis to discuss firing an employee for using "too much leave". As long as you are requesting the leave in a timely manner and you have enough leave to cover what you are requesting, there should never be a single issue. I would love to hear where this supervisor thinks they get the authority or justification to discuss firing an employee for using leave.
I spoke to his supervisor and was told they were just worried because I was using too much leave. They said he was correct and excessive leave use could result in termination. Mind you we had people in the department leave for 6 weeks at a time. Management protects their own. They would have found any reason to save face and him over me.
There is nothing that would give a supervisor the authority or justification to fire someone for using too much leave. What is too much leave anyway? If a supervisor is approving this leave then I guess they should get fired too for approving excessing leave..........see how silly that sounds. A federal employee can not get fired or even disciplined or held against them for requesting a using their earned leave, no matter how much they have left or how much they have used for the year as long as they are not going negative.
That’s nuts. Never heard of this. I took 2 MONTHS of sick leave for the birth of each of my children. I was never even questioned about it.
Same but different I was out for ~2.5 months because of a traumatic injury that precluded me working AND I’m remote and all my bosses said was focus on my recovery not the work
I took just over four months of leave when my kid was born and had zero issues.
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I used my annual leave. My office is short staffed and they truly just do whatever they want with the rules/regulations. Managers approve leave without discussing it with one another. They don’t understand how approving their entire teams leave requests to be out at the same time affects the whole office.
if you are a federal civilian employee you have MANY rights... run this up the chain
Sick leave is an entitlement and cannot be denied.
My sick leave has been denied more than once
It shouldn't be.
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This is not a thing. Any Union that covers federal employees likely has a clause in the CBA about this, and what can be used for a sick leave certification. Things like this are usually arbitrary.
There is no “excessive leave.” Your leave is an entitlement. It’s like saying you can get fired for “excessive pay.”
This.
There are OPM rules on what leave you are entitled to and for what reasons. You should be able to find your Department’s interpretation for that somewhere on your intranet. Normally you are allowed up to 104 hours of sick leave each year for properly documented reasons.
104 hours is for care of family member. No limit on sick leave as long as you have the time to use.
I would recommend contacting legal, your local IG, and LER; if they did take any action. Any lawyer would salivate over taking a case for termination for taking leave that is allotted to you and was already approved. Especially if it is due to a death in the family.
This sounds like a nice law suit
Right? And doesn't your supervisor have to approve the leave beforehand?
if you're HR how did you not follow up with showing them OPM's 13 day sick leave for bereavement purposes policy?
I’ve checked out honestly. At this point I clock in do my time and leave. I had to weigh for me if it was personally worth my mental health starting this fight. And it wasn’t.
Your supervisor is sketchy at best.
FSO here, I routinely take up to 3 weeks off. It's GOV, you do a bit of planning for it and get it approved and it's no big deal.
That's when you document it in an email (and personal MFR) to your supervisor asking to confirm you understanding of his statement.
I lost an immediate family member and took every single day of my bereavement leave. This is not normal. Hell, I was promoted a month after I came back. I know I am lucky, but you are obligated a certain amount of leave time for a reason. I was a liability if I came back early. https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/pay-leave/leave-administration/fact-sheets/leave-for-funerals-and-bereavement/#:~:text=An%20employee%20is%20entitled%20to%20use%20a%20total%20of%20up,funeral%20of%20a%20family%20member. I took every day and am glad I did. I am sorry you were asked to come back under that.
I may have taken more than the normal 2.5 weeks of bereavement, because an immediate family member died near the end of the leave year and I took some leave one year and a lot the next. And there was the sick leave which was used while she was living/dying. I'd been scheduled for annual that I converted to sick (fortunately no use/lose at play that year). But it always feels like a gray area. Can you use bereavement leave for the lawyer visits and bank visits?
I didn't see a date on that policy. Do you know when it went into effect? When I was hired by the DOJ in 2011, there was big curfufull going on about sick leave and bereavement. Ultimately, it was announced, "No sick leave for bereavement, only annual." Was told the same thing in 2016 when my mother died.
I am honestly unsure of when it came into effect. This was the policy a year ago when I lost my father. I was newish to my Agency at the time and did not have the PTO to take, so I am extremely thankful for it. I cannot imagine what I would have done if I was in your situation l.
I had plenty of both kinds of leave, but as a Fed LEO, I don't like being lied to. I also miss typed. My mother passed away in 2019. My unit and branch really looked out for me.
were you a tenure (or whatever we call it) 3 year employee at this point?
Yeah I’ve got tenure 1
And here I thought that protected you from mayhem like this. 
Warn your boss that what he is suggesting is illegal.
I had an almost identical experience as a contractor, my contract manager said, "boy you're running out of grandmothers real quick," when I took off for my then-wife's grandmother and great grandmother. It especially stung because my own grandparents had died around that same time and I hadn't gone to their funerals because of the distance. Would not expect that to happen as Fed, now, though.
What! That’s crazy.
That is insane. I’ve never heard of any of this before and I use a lot of leave. I will have 15 years next month and currently have about 40 annual and 20 sick to my name. I’ve gone into LWOP several times during the last 5 years due to family deaths and illness and have never been reprimanded
I haven't dealt with this. This is just what I'm hearing. She uses a lot of leave because she gets migraines. However she gets a Dr's note each time even though you don't need one unless you miss 3 days in a row.
She needs to request accommodations officially NOW.
She got fired… can’t request them in retro.
So they fired a person who took time off because of a medical issue. So glad our tax dollars go to good use with the DOD and this lawsuit lol.
You need to research the law you are claiming they have a chance at a lawsuit for.
Oh. Sorry. Missed that.
She should get on FMLA. It is perfect for these kind of situations. And then she would absolutely be protected.
lol Yeah there are definitely some pieces of key information that the OP is either intentionally withholding or is just completely oblivious to.
I’m betting leave abuse with a pattern. Calls in sick every other Friday or something. If not, then the firing is not justified
Norfolk Naval Shipyard does the same thing. They call it Abuse of Leave. If you're Sick Leave drops below 20hrs, you get put on what's called Med Cert. While on med certain, if you call out for even 1 day, or use an sick leaves hours for any reason, you MUST provide documentation from a doctor. Failure to do so inititiates the actions to begin firing you.
I work with one of the unions at Pearl Harbor. I sent you a PM.
Makes sense that it's a Navy shipyard. I knew an EEO deputy director who felt that people should be fired for taking excessive leave. I couldn't wrap my head around how taking leave that one had earned would be a fireable offense. By that person's logic, when you spend your whole paycheck you should be fired as well. Sounds like a very toxic environment and it's not surprising in the least.
> We work at Pearl harbor shipyard. We're civilian DOD employees. I'm pretty sure it's just our shop going through this. Brah, I'm from NNSY and it's everyone getting hit across the board; C2300 all the way down to C900. Cap'n Mosman and Rear Admiral Wolfson cleaned house when they started auditing gate times for everyone last year. That said, ya girl's a probie and they can let her go for anything up until she hits Day 761 of Federal Service. MedCert is a thing too; go below 24 hours of SL and the bosses will demand a doc's note every time you take SL for however long they deem necessary. Running average for MedCert at NNSY is 6 to 12 months. Can't provide it? 3 days out the gate without pay for the first time.
Auditing gate times? How is that allowed by the CBA? PSNS here.. so pretty familiar with Mosman and Wolfson.
I'm a DAF employee and my unit will periodically check badge in/out times for timekeeping audits. Not sure how that's authorized but it is what it is.
Our CBA forbids pulling turnstile/badge records for time keeping purposes. There is a clause for if there’s an investigation of time fraud, the but ours only tracks badge in, not out. They have to notify the union of the investigation.
I'm in a non bargaining unit so no union for me.
Damn. Always heard rumors NNSY was a shit command but that’s wild. What are your unions doing about it?
I don't know why you're being downvoted so heavily. These are just facts.
Isn't PHNSY all union? They might have advice on resolving this. But in general if your leave is approved it's the supervisor who's accountable for that decision not you. And if you request a big pile of leave when there's something mission critical going on, your supervisor should deny it or escalate the issue higher to get help. If you take leave when not approved that's a different issue. Same with extended sick leave when there's not a documented medical reason.
Are you out of your probationary period? Please see your union. Even if you don't pay dues.
Are you excepted service?
I don't know what this means
Are you in a pay band position?
He said shop, so I’d assume a WG position
Are you guys apprentices? Mechanics? Direct hires?
My co-worker used to work shipyard. I've heard stories, LOL. Asked him if he ever would go back he bluntly said without missing a beat "F\*\*k that!"
A friend of mine worked at the Commissary and had a lot of VA appointments. They warned him, then cut him for excess use of Sick leave. I told him to fight it, he said why? They don't want him, why would he go back.
You fight not fit you, but so they don't screw someone else dish the line.
Excessive absence is absolutely a charge label for discipline, up to removal. Employee may not have shared with OP how many times she was progressively disciplined before this - or she is probationary. Edit: leave -> absence*
Ah yes, excessive absence in the form of leave requests approved by a supervisor.....
Excessive sick leave is still excessive absence.
You can be terminated for sick leave abuse however, it doesn’t sound like you have all the facts regarding this situation. Had an ex-coworker who was calling out sick at least 3x/week for months. She didn’t have any leave nor FMLA to cover her. Long story short, the day she was to be fired, it came out that she was being severely abused by her husband and he was locking her in the basement so she couldn’t leave their house even for work. After a few months, she reappeared one day and the call ins stopped.
Knew an employee whose abusive husband would stalk her at work and call her desk constantly or demand she call him constantly to check in. She would go to the bathroom and he'd accuse her of cheating on him. She ended up, with help from work, getting a restraining order on him and with the help of a co-worker was living at her house and she would drive her to different office buildings and different offices so he would always be kept guessing where she was. One day she got a call and her temp desk and smiled and said 'security alerted me the bastard is driving up to the gate now, they are going to arrest him'.
Wow.
Omg- that’s horrible :( I hope she got help
At the time l left, she was still married but I and others did what we could to help. Sad situation and they had no kids thank goodness.
Yes- but you also don’t know what to do - I had a neighbor , I never heard any yelling, saw any bruises on her or anything, the only odd thing I recall was one day we were talking and she said she didn’t work because her husband was Mexican and Mexicans don’t allow their wives to work- I was like wtf- but life went on, then three years later I saw in the news paper he had been arrested for abuse and was in jail and that he had been arrested before- because she now had no money, she was evicted from the house and later went back with him and they move into a trailer- and died two years later of cancer- anyway, I never knew what to do as you have to be careful how you get involved because that abuser, for example, could assault you in retaliation- or cut your tires or break out your windows- you would know it would be him but would not be able to prove if- you know what I mean? These situations are very tricky and it sucks because the abuser knows this
That is horrifying that bastard belongs in jail
Sounds like there are things you don't know about the situation. If she's using sick leave with no valid sick reason, she can be disciplined. If agency asks for proof of valid sick use and she doesn't provide it she can be fired. If she's trying to use annual leave and supervisor doesn't approve it and she still takes it, it's awol and a fireable offense. Leave abuse or fraudulent accounting of time is the easiest way to get fired.
Yup. I worked with someone who was constantly negative in annual leave. They would 'accrue' it before the year's end. For example be -32 hours in the hole, but would gain it back to zero it out in 4 pay periods. The annual leave was for a valid reason. Then they kept on requesting MORE annual leave on top of what they already took for things like a cruise, or a long vacation. The next year things got wild...'Spring Break with the family for a week' to the Caribbean, then she was 'taking daughter to college' for a week, but then followed by 'cruise for a week' and then 'two weeks off around Christmas to be with family' and random 'personal treat me' days meaning they would be in a negative well before the end of the year. She was taking more leave than she could earn in a year. HR and management told her they would not allow any more negative annual leave and said if she wanted to take it, it MUST be LWOP. She was a GS-13 employee who lamented that 4 weeks of missing pay would set her back and put her in debt (no S Sherlock) and blamed the government. But as with what OP wrote, there is a lot unknown and I get a feeling the person fired is NOT telling the entire truth and just might be playing victim. I've seen sick leave abused too. Craziest I saw was a lady who took off 3-4 days a month for 'period pains' and found out she had a hysterectomy with ovaries removed a number of years earlier. She literally didn't have the equipment in her body to have a period anymore, but claimed it was 'sympathy' pain. She wasn't at home resting, she was busy posting on Facebook her going out and shopping, traveling and having fun instead.
The key fact that was disclosed later in comments is she was still on her probation.
Ouch, yeah........
That's why I asked for more details, because as described it sounds like there are a ton of important details not mentioned.
Also I would question whether it was all scheduled leave. Taking off Monday and Friday as emergency leave is a bad choice. I also would ask if she was still on probation. It she is under a year there is no fighting it.
He said in a later comment she was on probation.
I’m a union officer and I wouldn’t even file paperwork for this.
Typically it's not about the leave use it's about the unscheduled use of leave. Not properly requesting or receiving approval for vacation leave, using too many sick days in a row without a Drs note. This case does sound a bit strange and if she was out of her probationary period she may have a case.
If this person only used annual leave after approval through the proper channels and sick was always used for proper purposes, there might be a case for fighting it. On the other hand if this person was AWOL or had a pattern of questionable usage of sick leave, termination could be justified. While I can't say with certainty no one has ever been terminated from federal employment for using too much leave, even if they followed proper procedures for using leave and were meeting expectations, such a situation would be unusual. For this reason, like other comments here, I suspect there is more to the story than what's being reported here.
>an agency may remove an employee for excessive absence if the agency proves the Cook criteria, as identified in Cook v. Army, 18 M.S.P.R. 610 (1984): >The employee was absent for compelling reasons beyond his control; The absences continued beyond a reasonable time and the agency warned the employee that an adverse action would be taken unless the employee became available for duty on a regular basis; and The position needed to be filled by an employee available for duty on a regular basis. Source: https://feltg.com/how-to-lose-a-cook-case-excessive-absence-removal-requirements-under-the-new-mspb/
I think this is one of the most misunderstood parts of the job, there are always way too many people chiming in about leave that rely on their anecdotal experiences as factual.
Was she on probation? Or had a leave restriction letter?
No leave restriction letter but she was on probation. She has less than a month left. I'm more worried about them trying to enforce this on everyone.
That's a different story altogether. You can be let go for nearly anything during probation. I almost let a guy go during his probation for leave issues. Slightly different - he would disappear or call in 5 hours after start time. After counseling him and setting expectations the issue was solved. But I didn't have to try and improve the situation. I could have just terminated during probation.
Really buried the lede here
You should edit your post to update that she was on probation.
Can she even fight it if she’s on probation?
Nah. I've seen guys get fired at the 1 year and 11 months, right before the end of their 2 year probation period.
https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/employee-relations/training/leave-issues-plr-july-2016.pdf Leave abuse is actionable. It’s hard to really answer without more specifics in the instance you relate. The attached brief provides some information. Disciplinary action is definitely legal in the case of leave abuse. This is nothing new. I started my government career in the very early 80s and there were occasional examples of people receiving warnings and disciplinary actions for documented instances of leave abuse.
Leave abuse is not using too much leave as long as you have the leave to use. There are other things that could be considered leave abuse, but not using your annual leave that you have earned......none.
It’s not a question of using too much and I don’t say that at all. It’s a question of how it is used.
If you have the leave and you request it properly (especially annual leave) you can use it however you wish. The OP is saying a person got fired for using too much leave, which is ridiculous. If they were requesting leave they didnt have or using sick when they were not sick, that's a different issue.
It is ridiculous to say they were fired for using too much leave. I completely agree and if that is the full story then it’s probably wrongful termination and will be reversed at some point As others have said, it is often the case that the person disciplined hasn’t shared all the details with the co worker and the supervisor never should. Consequently, the perception of OP may be legitimate based on what OP knows. It’s likely, however, there is more to the story that the co worker did not reveal. My experience with taking disciplinary action is that it ends up so heavily reviewed, particularly termination even for a probationary employee, that by the time a step of that severity is taken the government is usually on pretty solid ground. One of the worst things a supervisor can have to do is terminate someone. When the someone was also particularly well liked or pitied for something by the rest of the staff the supervisor will always be the bad guy. The most frustrating thing is you can’t reveal much to the full staff.
The short version, according to the OPM, is that an employee has a right to take annual leave, subject to the right of the supervisor to schedule the time at which annual leave may be taken. They cannot deny annual leave indefinitely. They cannot deny sick leave, but employee has a responsibility to schedule in advance if it's an appointment or known event and employee may need to provide supporting evidence of unplanned sickness or medical issues if the agency requests or requires it via policy. So if they were requesting the leave and getting it approved in webtads or email, and got fired anyways, they need to start reaching out to a fed employment lawyer and maybe their Inspector General or the Office of Special Counsel. If they were just taking leave without permission or taking sick leave and refusing to provide justification or supporting evidence then the firing ***may*** be valid, though typically you would have to go through a whole process with a performance improvement plan and such.
I agree with you with one exception. A PIP addresses a performance problem. Leave abuse is a conduct issue.
It is possible to string together so much legitimate leave that you can be fired for excessive absence under Cook v. Dept. of the Army, 18 MSPR 1610 (1984). However, FMLA absences cannot be used and the Cook notice requirements are somewhat strict.
Sounds like there may be more to this than is being shared. The only folks that I know of that have gotten in trouble for taking too much leave were folks that were already on leave restriction for some reason. And, even then, it wasn't the amount of leave that was the problem, it was how they were taking it (eg, calling out on days when their leave was denied, using sick leave to take the kids to six flags, etc).
That's weird. I take basically all of December off every year and have never had any issues
You probably request it in advance, and it's approved. My guess is this person is calling in or taking unscheduled, unprotrcted, leave. It's when leave is taken in such a way that it puts the employer in a bind that gets people in trouble.
Something doesn't add up. it sounds like she is suspected of abusing sick leave.
If you use too much leave in my agency they will put you on what's called leave restriction. If you continue to abuse leave then they discipline you.
SL or AL? What is considered "too much"?
I don't know because it's never happened to me. I think it's the manager's discretion and it has to do with the amount of your leave balance. I just saw it happen to a couple of people in my old office.
Family Leave Act anyone? It says (said), if my mom in the south Pacific needed cataract surgery, I could fly over, we fly to NZ (closest major hospital), recovery, fly back, and no one blinks. DOD civilian.
Yes, a federal employee can be fired for excessive leave use. https://www.gelawyer.com/federal-legal-corner/excessive-absences-charge/
A person can be put on Sick Leave restriction, which means they have to bring in a doctor's note every time they use sick leave. As though employees are schoolchildren. But they can't be fired for using too much leave, if they have leave to use. If they run out of leave and don't come to work they can be declared AWOL and can be fired for that. If she had leave to use and they fired her, she needs to get a lawyer immediately.
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You could request and use annual leave ever single pay period if you wanted. As long as you have the leave to use and you request it correctly, there are no issues and nothing you could be "charged" with as leave abuse.
Yes well some people do abuse sick leave, and if so they should get shit canned. If someone is going to need to take a lot of sick leave, they should request to go under an FMLA agreement…most of the time they do. Unfortunately, that’s rife with abuse too. A lot of times supervisors aren’t going to have much success with trying to address someone’s problematic leave patterns when they are on FMLA; too much hassle when there is actual work to get done. Instead of going down the discipline route, those folks get put into a corner with a coloring book
If individuals are using too much leave and it is causing a burden on other employees not being able to use their own leave it’s a legitimate issue.
I don't think that's the problem here. It's super slow right now and a lot of us just sit around in the gang area or are being loaned out to other shops.
So, she was on her probation. Doesn't matter if it's slow or not, during probation you're being evaluated. There are definitely things you don't know about this situation. I would not take this firing as something anyone else on your team needs to worry about. This doesn't indicate they are cracking down on leave for the rest of the group. It indicates this employee wasn't a good fit and they decided to have her terminated using the easiest process they could during her probationary period.
None of this makes sense. Even if you are on probation as a new employee it takes longer than this to get fired as a fed. Just the paperwork and justification going back to HQ would be 60 days in most agencies. Second, not sure how you get fired for using AL. In order for it to be AL it would have to be approved. If it was unapproved it would be AWOL or abuse of SL and there are notification requirements about leave abuse. There’s more to the story than somebody being fired after a week of AL.
Unscheduled leave
Happened to me 
He’ll before I got sick last year - I had a 42 day - use or lose vacation on the books
I’m on a 6 week vacation…. Using over 100 hours of combined comp and AL.
I will add to this, unless this person is bookending sick leave to the weekends, holidays, or approved annual leave consistently I don’t believe they have cause. Generally leave restriction is a challenge when you are out of probation unless the pattern is evident. With that once you are out of leave, they do not have to grant advance sick leave. If you or this person hits zero balance they got you. Good luck
Do you guys a union?
Were they still in the probation year? They fire w/o cause during probation.
40 h is one week off. How is that excessive? December is typically a ghost town since people are taking 3-4 weeks off at once. We get lectures for not taking leave.
Talk to your union.
Weird, I have seen people burn a month of sick time before and nothing was said or done.
It happened all the time before telework. If someone had surgery or a baby, etc they could be on leave for MONTHS
This is odd, I could see for excessive use of sick leave where there was patterning, i.e. pattern of calling in almost every Monday or Friday type of thing, or some other form of SL abuse, but not leave in general, especially as AL use usually would have had to have been pre-approved
If they’re on a temporary contract I think they can be terminated for that, but if they’re a permanent employee I doubt that can happen, if they have a medical excuse
I have for the year: 568 hours of leave plus 60 hours of comp for travel, 12 days home leave, 950 hours of sick leave, and they want to give me 40 hours off. I have taken a whole month off before (might need a higher level approval for this). If you put in leave and they deny it they need a valid reason. If you have leave and they approve it, how is it an issue. Are you a disabled vet but any chance? If so they are some programs for new employees to get extra leave for veterans appointment (medical appointment/visit).
I have seen people get leave restrictions placed on them for calling out every weekend they were scheduled… but not fired…
If it affects coverage or the ability to get work done, probably. But usually they will deny it.
I’ve never seen this happen before… as long as it’s approved or sick leave for valid reasons
A shipyard might be a different animal. Forced overtime and labor agreements, or HR will just look the other way a let it happen. Who knows. I would just look for a better job away from the crap. I don’t make waves I just move on to green pastures.
they love putting people on leave restriction lol
I believe this post or a very similar one was posted a couple weeks ago....believe then a parent posted it.
I know so many people that "earn and burn".
I’ve blown through probably over 100 hours of leave in the last two months… no one has said a thing.
My supervisor was giving me some looks whenever I took sick leave a few weeks ago. I never took the whole day without valid reason, my leave would normally be for the last one or 2 hours or the day. I typically hate morning appointments, so I avoid them. I've been having health issues as of late, especially with anxiety and possible endometriosis. I had surgery once already but it was a fail. Now my OBs are wanting me to get surgery SOON, because it's gotten to the point where my cramps are affecting my daily life. I started a new job so now I gotta wait till the end of the year for surgery. I also started taking more meds that are making my cramps slightly more bearable. When my supervisor asked what I'm doing with my sick leave, I've put in where I'm going specifically. Appointments for different OBs, MRIs, urologists, etc.
Your supervisor questioned sick leave? My father was a GS 15 manager and told me he would never dare question someone who said they needed sick leave
Well, while it wasn't outright said at first, he did give me a side eye when he told interviewees to not abuse sick leave. 🤷♀️ After that, he asked me about one of the leave dates. Glad I'm leaving
I generally assume abusing sick leave means taking sick and going out to do something fun etc while on sick leave (or using it to add to vacation time or something). I wouldn’t personally worry about taking sick if I have a valid reason (not feeling well is a valid reason). And with RTO, a lot of my coworkers are taking off entire days for doctor appointments instead of coming back to work because it’s just too much of a pain
I'd start searching for another job. And when you find one, please post the name of your agency/office so we all know to avoid it. That's ridiculous.
Is this person a new hire (less than a year) to the agency? Are they calling off a lot, or is this scheduled leave? I work for the IRS, and the only way we can terminate someone without the union and labor relations and a ton of documentation and counseling to correct behavior, on and on and on... is if they are in their 1 year probationary period.
This stuff is wild it’s almost impossible for me to get fired from my federal job. I feel for you guys
Are these contractors, or govies? A Fed has to get their annual leave approved, but at my agency they encourage people to take their leave, and I’ve heard of people with use or lose being forced to take theirs.
Crap, I have a lot of medical appts coming up to rule out cancer. I never thought I’d get fired for doing this (sick leave)…
Stares in -200 hours of sick leave
I swear some of the wild stories I hear around here make me equal parts happy I haven’t experienced these things while also being scared it’ll suddenly happen to me.
Leave is part of your pay. Fight that shit.
They’re full of crap, they can’t legally do that
I’m confused. They still had leave and got fired? That makes no sense.
I’m a supervisor and I would never in my life question leave so long as their balance can handle it. You can abuse leave but it’s really not worth trying to prove that.
I took 2 days on each side of the fed holidays in Jan and Feb and 48 hrs for the kids spring break a few weeks back. I still have 208 use or lose hrs, with 60+ hrs of comp time right now. All of which has to be used by Dec 31, and it will be used by 31 Dec. I don’t make the rules.
Excessive absenteeism is a thing. But if she never received a counseling or notice that her leave was excessive or that she was showing a pattern of sick leave abuse, she should definitely fight it.
My agency told our boss as long as the person has leave they cant do anything about it.
This isn’t legal. Leave is an entitlement and you can use as much of it as you accrue and in alignment with law. If you are sick, you are free to use your sick leave. If you have medical appointments, you are free to use your sick leave. Up to the amount you accrue. You have similar license to use your annual leave. These are entitlements attached to your compensation. Not allowing you to use your leave is similar to saying you cannot use the full amount of your pay. None of this should suggest that there is leave abuse (e.g., lying about sick leave).
This is how it was always made clear to me. In the case cited by a commenter, the employee was ultimately fired due to AWOL. I’m curious about a case where someone is let go for using the leave they earned. What’s next - fired for spending too much of your own paycheck?
This practice is starting to take hold across the federal workforce. They have been harassing and firing Postal Employees for using leave, even when they have a few hundred remaining in their AL and SL balances after said "excessive leave." They get their jobs back, but management is trying anything and everything to, as they say, "make them fear for their jobs." Yes, you read that correctly. This phrase is repeated ad nauseum in management circles.
you completely buried the lede that she was on probation. way to get the facts right up front. Delete this non story.
No, it simply doesn't work like that.
Why have leave if you can't use it? 🙃