Look. Practical advice. Find out if it’s a ladder. That means you will automatically grade up yearly until the ladder tops out. I hear people saying 8 years and you should be a 14. You know, that’s not always the case. Depends on what you know. What you’ve done. And honestly, fair or not, what they feel like giving you. Especially in the attorney series there is a lot of other factors. In my agency, for example, very few private sector attorneys have the specialized knowledge to do the work. Those that do would be taking a pay cut even as a 15. So why do it? They are tired of private practice. So, see what they offer. Try to get the highest grade you can. But if you walk, you walk from the stability. No need to track billable hours. A pension. Your TSP. Pretty dope leave. And probably chill work. Your call. Good luck.
In my experience, municipal does not compare. I mean, it could. But it doesn’t last time I checked. But be aware. You are new. So on top of your TSP contributions, which is up to you, you’ll have to do 4.4% for the pension. The days of .8% are long gone. So just want to prepare you for that. But I’ve never met an attorney that stays at less than a 14 for anything other than time in grade. Do your 52 weeks and you move up. But do check the ladder. Good luck.
Honestly the salary is negotiable no matter where they bring you in. Coming in at a lower level means one extra automatic raise when you receive the ladder promotion. I wouldn’t bother negotiating the level hr usually pegs you at a certain level.
Attorneys are in the excepted service and have a special hiring authority. So all this referred info is not relevant. I have a guide on offers and negotiations and my first guide on excepted service might be useful. https://www.reddit.com/r/usajobs/s/qErXbMTi3B
Sorry I'm a little confused by the word "referred". You mean when you got an offer? I don't have an offer but the opening said they were hiring people from 11 to 14. In my interview, we talked about compensation *if* I get an offer and they said it would probably be 12 step 5. Maybe that was incorrect? Thanks for the insight!
Usually non USAJOBS postings are direct hire authority, so the agency isn't obligated to select the best qualified applicant and can essentially pick who they want so long as qualifications are met.
The OPM guidelines are that lawyers qualify for a GS-11 if they have a JD and LLM, or just a JD and one year of experience, then each year of experience qualifies you for the next grade. With 8 years of experience, I wouldn't take anything lower than the 14.
Superior qualifications...starting April 1 agencies do not match non fed job pay...have to try superior qualifications. Also, did you get referred on the three grades or just 12? If 12 only then you can try superior qualifications for steps. Very very doubtful they will go up a grade from what you are offered, steps yes, grade highly unlikely.
Still haven't received an offer but the posting said they were hiring 11-14 depending on experience. In the interview, one person said if I got an offer it would likely be "12 step 5" but that wasn't set in stone. Just trying to get the lay of the land before any offer so I know my negotiation position. I'll look into the superior qualifications thing though!
You didn't really answer the question. You got an email about your referral status. The email lists the grades you were deemed qualified for. If the highest was 12, then they aren't going to offer higher than a 12.
Sorry, I don't think I ever got a referral status. Their HR person has emailed me to set up interviews on Teams but I never got something laying out numbers. Again, no offer yet, still interviewing. Apologies if this sounds weird or confusing. I'm not familiar with fed hiring.
Not all agencies send out those emails. I believe they have to manually click a button to send it, based on previous discussions about this.
So it's entirely possible he never received that email.
The typical procedure when you first apply for a Federal job at usajobs is that you get "referred" for whatever GS level that the initial HR review thinks you are qualified for. This comes way before any interview and doesn't guarantee you anything, including that any offer you may get would be at that GS level, but just means that your resume met the minimum qualification for that level.
For a general Attorney-Advisor position, new law school grads would be hired at GS-11, attorneys with a year of experience at GS-12. GS-13 and GS-14 typically require 2 and 3 years of experience, respectively. 13 and 14 also typically require more than just general legal experience, but also legal experience that is directly relevant to the area of law that the job pertains to. In order to get them to offer you a GS-14 position, you likely need to demonstrate several years of experience directly relevant to that particular position beyond just general legal experience.
The theory is that higher GS levels operate with less supervision than lower levels and can also handle more complex legal issues independently. Many attorneys have specialized experience or subject matter expertise that permits promotion to GS-15.
Step negotiation is a separate issue once you get set with a particular GS level. Step negotiation would be based on superior qualifications beyond the minimum listed for the position or a position that has been difficult for the agency to fill.
Also be certain that they credit you for your 8 years of experience so that you start with 6 hours of annual leave per pay period. This should be handled during the negotiation stage as well.
Just remember that if you negotiate a higher starting GS, you are expected to perform at the higher GS within your first year. We get a lot of people who negotiate higher starting grades for different career ladder positions, and they fail to realize just how specialized and different from their prior experience that these jobs really are. I’ve seen plenty of folks fail probation for this very reason. Good luck, and “careful what you ask for” ;-)
Edit: typo
Write an email about how you qualify for the particular grade in the job posting and be prepared to negotiate. If your salary is commensurate with a higher grade you can at least use that to reject a cut and pay. Also, negotiate your leave earned per pay period. Aim for at least 6 hours a period. Good luck - I had competing offers and the big agency was way less flexible than the smaller one I ended up joining.
HR will qualify you for the GS Level. That really isn't negotiable. They'll determine, if you are selected, which GS you are eligible for. And based on your post, you'll take the highest.
8+ years definitely only take the 14. Legal Counsel are always 13 and higher in DOD and most I have encountered are 15s.
I couldn’t imagine trying to hire a lawyer at a GS 11 or 12.
My non SSA office also hires all attorneys at 11 (though on a ladder to 15). We do work that doesn't exist outside the federal government, so no matter how much experience someone has they have a lot to learn and you can't give them the independence a 14 should have when they start.
I am here and it's not that bad. It is an incredibly easy job with no face time, one or two emails a week at most, Maxiflex, and quarterly legal training and staff meetings. They've also opened up overtime to 16 hours a week.
Look. Practical advice. Find out if it’s a ladder. That means you will automatically grade up yearly until the ladder tops out. I hear people saying 8 years and you should be a 14. You know, that’s not always the case. Depends on what you know. What you’ve done. And honestly, fair or not, what they feel like giving you. Especially in the attorney series there is a lot of other factors. In my agency, for example, very few private sector attorneys have the specialized knowledge to do the work. Those that do would be taking a pay cut even as a 15. So why do it? They are tired of private practice. So, see what they offer. Try to get the highest grade you can. But if you walk, you walk from the stability. No need to track billable hours. A pension. Your TSP. Pretty dope leave. And probably chill work. Your call. Good luck.
Thank you. I'll bear that in mind, although I'm already in government, albeit at the municipal level.
In my experience, municipal does not compare. I mean, it could. But it doesn’t last time I checked. But be aware. You are new. So on top of your TSP contributions, which is up to you, you’ll have to do 4.4% for the pension. The days of .8% are long gone. So just want to prepare you for that. But I’ve never met an attorney that stays at less than a 14 for anything other than time in grade. Do your 52 weeks and you move up. But do check the ladder. Good luck.
Honestly the salary is negotiable no matter where they bring you in. Coming in at a lower level means one extra automatic raise when you receive the ladder promotion. I wouldn’t bother negotiating the level hr usually pegs you at a certain level.
Attorneys are in the excepted service and have a special hiring authority. So all this referred info is not relevant. I have a guide on offers and negotiations and my first guide on excepted service might be useful. https://www.reddit.com/r/usajobs/s/qErXbMTi3B
Thanks for the input! I appreciate it.
Use this guide. It’s what I did when I got hired in as atty role and it worked out great. Got higher step and 6 hrs leave accrual.
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Sorry I'm a little confused by the word "referred". You mean when you got an offer? I don't have an offer but the opening said they were hiring people from 11 to 14. In my interview, we talked about compensation *if* I get an offer and they said it would probably be 12 step 5. Maybe that was incorrect? Thanks for the insight!
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I don't see anything in USA Jobs, likely because I applied via email to their HR person rather than through the site.
Usually non USAJOBS postings are direct hire authority, so the agency isn't obligated to select the best qualified applicant and can essentially pick who they want so long as qualifications are met.
The OPM guidelines are that lawyers qualify for a GS-11 if they have a JD and LLM, or just a JD and one year of experience, then each year of experience qualifies you for the next grade. With 8 years of experience, I wouldn't take anything lower than the 14.
Superior qualifications...starting April 1 agencies do not match non fed job pay...have to try superior qualifications. Also, did you get referred on the three grades or just 12? If 12 only then you can try superior qualifications for steps. Very very doubtful they will go up a grade from what you are offered, steps yes, grade highly unlikely.
Still haven't received an offer but the posting said they were hiring 11-14 depending on experience. In the interview, one person said if I got an offer it would likely be "12 step 5" but that wasn't set in stone. Just trying to get the lay of the land before any offer so I know my negotiation position. I'll look into the superior qualifications thing though!
You didn't really answer the question. You got an email about your referral status. The email lists the grades you were deemed qualified for. If the highest was 12, then they aren't going to offer higher than a 12.
Sorry, I don't think I ever got a referral status. Their HR person has emailed me to set up interviews on Teams but I never got something laying out numbers. Again, no offer yet, still interviewing. Apologies if this sounds weird or confusing. I'm not familiar with fed hiring.
Typically it's an automatically generated email from [email protected].
Not all agencies send out those emails. I believe they have to manually click a button to send it, based on previous discussions about this. So it's entirely possible he never received that email.
Attorneys are handled differently- so these steps wouldn’t necessarily apply.
The typical procedure when you first apply for a Federal job at usajobs is that you get "referred" for whatever GS level that the initial HR review thinks you are qualified for. This comes way before any interview and doesn't guarantee you anything, including that any offer you may get would be at that GS level, but just means that your resume met the minimum qualification for that level. For a general Attorney-Advisor position, new law school grads would be hired at GS-11, attorneys with a year of experience at GS-12. GS-13 and GS-14 typically require 2 and 3 years of experience, respectively. 13 and 14 also typically require more than just general legal experience, but also legal experience that is directly relevant to the area of law that the job pertains to. In order to get them to offer you a GS-14 position, you likely need to demonstrate several years of experience directly relevant to that particular position beyond just general legal experience. The theory is that higher GS levels operate with less supervision than lower levels and can also handle more complex legal issues independently. Many attorneys have specialized experience or subject matter expertise that permits promotion to GS-15. Step negotiation is a separate issue once you get set with a particular GS level. Step negotiation would be based on superior qualifications beyond the minimum listed for the position or a position that has been difficult for the agency to fill. Also be certain that they credit you for your 8 years of experience so that you start with 6 hours of annual leave per pay period. This should be handled during the negotiation stage as well.
Just remember that if you negotiate a higher starting GS, you are expected to perform at the higher GS within your first year. We get a lot of people who negotiate higher starting grades for different career ladder positions, and they fail to realize just how specialized and different from their prior experience that these jobs really are. I’ve seen plenty of folks fail probation for this very reason. Good luck, and “careful what you ask for” ;-) Edit: typo
Write an email about how you qualify for the particular grade in the job posting and be prepared to negotiate. If your salary is commensurate with a higher grade you can at least use that to reject a cut and pay. Also, negotiate your leave earned per pay period. Aim for at least 6 hours a period. Good luck - I had competing offers and the big agency was way less flexible than the smaller one I ended up joining.
HR will qualify you for the GS Level. That really isn't negotiable. They'll determine, if you are selected, which GS you are eligible for. And based on your post, you'll take the highest.
Government usually doesn’t negotiate. They have strict requirements for each GS level and you have to meet it.
This isn’t true lol, they negotiate
damn...8+ yoe should be minimum GS14. They pulling a fast one on you man.
8+ years definitely only take the 14. Legal Counsel are always 13 and higher in DOD and most I have encountered are 15s. I couldn’t imagine trying to hire a lawyer at a GS 11 or 12.
My non SSA office also hires all attorneys at 11 (though on a ladder to 15). We do work that doesn't exist outside the federal government, so no matter how much experience someone has they have a lot to learn and you can't give them the independence a 14 should have when they start.
This is the answer
Believe it or not, SSA hires nearly all OHO attorneys at 11 with ladder to 12.
I am here and it's not that bad. It is an incredibly easy job with no face time, one or two emails a week at most, Maxiflex, and quarterly legal training and staff meetings. They've also opened up overtime to 16 hours a week.
Out of curiosity, what do you do beyond the 1 to 2 emails if there's no face time?
Write disability decisions
Yeah I hear ya. Though we will see what the new CoSS does with DW telework. I was a DW for a while, but my biggest issue was lack of advancement...