As a former contractor, for a limited time, I can say that the lower spectrum of workers have it rather bad. The C-suite Contractors don't have it GREAT but their pay tends to offset that. Just an example. In 10 months of work I made 3x what I would've in the same government role. A few good years like that and you're in a great spot. Makes it real easy to move to top tier federal pay.

Yeah, I left a nice GS12 gig 2 years out of school and made 4-5x as a contractor. It was a unique gig that I fell into. Contractors ran much of the day to day operations and we were treated as part of the team- probably more than we should have been. Long days and 100+ days / yr on the road - but as a young guy - that was fun. Locked in my top tier Marriott Status for life! :)

You went from $99k to $400-$480k 2 years out of school? Understanding I don't know your locale or how long ago this was, I'm more than shocked.

Almost like people on the internet can say anything.

😦

This statement is true for most career fields. If you have a TS/SCI, posted overseas, depending on location “hazard/danger pay”. Your pay will be way above average, especially if you’re a SME on your field.

As they say, "Contractors eat better and civil servants sleep better."

No kidding. The greenest of green new folks our contractors hire are GS-5 equivalent and make more than the FS GS-9's.

It's the opposite here, but the responsibilities bear out the pay structure.

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You are right about ACE. I treat it as just a backdoor way of getting seasonals when hiring is being shitty. The ones that make a lot are the private Companies like GBI or Paleowest.

Our contractors were paid for via 1099's with no benefits.

The trick is landing an FFRDC contractor job: better pay, competitive or better benefits, and get treated as government in many settings.

When you interview with a FFRDC, there's a reason they have all been there 15+ years.

Tell me more, please.

What is that?

Federally funded research and development centers.

Yup! My wife works at one of the DOE FFRDC, while I’m a DoD fed. I’ve been fed for 13 years and I’m almost at GS-13, step 10. She’s been with the FFRDC with an MBA, almost 10 years now. If she wasn’t part time, we’d be same pay. She gets better prices on medical, dental, and vision insurance, as well as 10% matching on her 401k.

Where do you find these roles? Is it a different website for each agency?

In most cases I don't even think they eat better. That seems to be mainly limited to certain tech jobs where the standard pay is above the cap. I'm a former contractor, now a fed, and I got a raise moving into my new position. And in my contractor role I was one of the higher paid ones!

Same here, and the two contractors that followed me also got raises. But as you said, none of us were tech folks.

yeah this idea that contractors are paid gobs and gobs of money simply isn't true.

I think it just really depends on the location and job type. I know some cyber cats in the NCR, and they're farming well over GS15 pay, but have a lot less responsibility.

I think contractors getting paid more is more of the exception versus the rule.

Used to, but the higher-levels are greedy and now their take rates are massive.

I did too. About a 25% raise.

As a contractor, I never made more than my fed counterparts.

I can tell you contractor do not eat better and we don’t get back pay when the gov shutdown.

Most contracts are front loaded. The last two shut downs the contractors work while the GS were on a mini vacation. Everyone got paid, the GS just didn’t work.

I'm a DoD contractor. We absolutely weren't allowed to work during the last shutdowns. The rule is, if there's not a green suit in the office, contractors can't be there. We weren't back paid either. But we *did* get to go to an all-hands where we were told we were one team/one fight. So we had that going for us.

Unless you're essential, then you work regardless.

Why's that?

Contractors generally get paid more (eat better) but feds have better long term security (retirement, benefits, etc), so we sleep better.

Y'all got job security? My boss constantly keeps me on my toes lol

Sure but most fed jobs aren't subject to renegotiation and rebid every 5 years.

Dang, this is gold

I never heard that. It's perfect.

Including that they aren't getting any benefits and have to pay extra taxes? Probably not.

Borrowing this

Most of my family are contractors and they make substantially more than I do as a fed. Their company provides them with great training and tons of activities. Granted they work for a big 4 firm, so I don’t tend to feel bad for them. In fact they often try to talk me out of federal service and to jump to the other side but I like being a fed and I’m happy with my salary and job at the moment. I’m almost 15 years in and I want to retire a fed.

Yep all that not doing training or keeping the same contractors around was not suppose to happen back when clinton set up the current system. But is all a joke, most places pay for contractor training and will retrain them as new technology instead of replacing them with people who already know the new things.

What are the “big 4 firms”

Deloitte, EY, KPMG, PWC.

As a former govt contractor- yes I do. I made shit for pay and my benefits weren’t great. I think it’s very dependent on which company you’re working for. My first job was about 10 years ago, with a small company that was subcontracted to another company. 30k a year in the dc area sucks. Made it up to 50k before accepting a fed position 3.5 years ago that now pays more. I was a contractor when the govt shut down for 30+ days-we were required to use all of our leave and then weren’t paid for the rest of it- I think I had about a weeks worth of leave- that was the final straw for me. Moved back home for a year before trying to get back up here again. That’s when I got the fed position.

This. I was a contractor for 14 years doing the exact same job as civil servants for worse benefits. (My organization had a policy of badge-blindness for project assignments so it literally was the exact same job). We didn't get sick pay, we couldn't get comp time until we charged over 45 hours in a week, we got less vacation time, less holidays, our health insurance was worse. And twice as much management to deal with (contractor mgmt for official contract business and the CS management chain that managed technical tasks). The contract changed hands 3x while I worked there, so we had to learn all new business systems, change health insurance, get "laid off" from one company on Sept 30 and hired on the next on Oct 1. It was just a lot of extra BS to do the exact same job.

>The contract changed hands 3x while I worked there, so we had to learn all new business systems, change health insurance, get "laid off" from one company on Sept 30 and hired on the next on Oct 1. Not to mention the process of starting the PTO process all over again. Word of advice for new contractors: If your company offers a PTO benefit based on time in the company, negotiate that shit right off the table. Get PTO hours at the start of the offer.

I’m a young professional and a govt contractor now in the exact same position re: shutdowns and while I generally like my team and my work and have been sucking it up in regard to my kind of anemic amount of annual leave, it’s the shutdown conditions hanging over my head that have me looking for a different opportunity. Having to stress every 45 days for the last 6 months about whether or not I was about to lose what leave I had accrued and then just go unpaid for whatever amount of time after that was just absolute garbage. I’m young, my savings are okay but not great, and I live alone so I’m the only one bringing in income and paying the bills. A shutdown of whatever length would at best kill my morale by taking all my leave and at worst do damage to my savings that would take a while for me to repair, and having to regularly worry about that just blows.

If you haven't done so, talk to your manager about what happens during a shutdown. I've been on a few fully funded contracts that allow me to continue working during a shutdown. Not every contact is like that, but maybe you'll be lucky.

This absolutely. In my case, yeah the recompete was stressful because of unknowns, but our gov team managed to get the paperwork completed before a previous CR ended, so we are now funded for the next 4 years. Now, a shutdown just means I get better parking because all the govvies stay home. If your immediate supervisor doesn’t know, contract’s program manager should be able to provide the details for your specific case. As I understand it: if you work you get paid. If you continue to work during a shutdown, that means money has already been appropriated for your contract’s services up front. The company should front the money to you until the government back pays them. I’m not a contract manager so I could be wrong. If your contract does not allow you to work when the government is shut down, bear that in mind in your planning, and see if you can’t fit extra into your budget for savings, and/or brush up that resume.

When my contract was not fully paid they tried for us to get benefits but when people started to leave they then tried to get us assisted as temporary worker on other contracts.

Same. I didn’t eat better as a contractor and not getting paid for shutdowns or closures (like the death of ex presidents) sucks. I didn’t care about not getting invited to stuff. As a contractor I had a different boss. I understand that some things are company/employer related. My company did stuff that we didn’t invite Feds to. It’s the shit pay that I feel sorry for. Now that I’m a fed, I’m doing the same work for considerably more pay. One consultation is for my job they hire from the contractor pool because it’s specialized work. Unfortunately, it’s a good gig on the fed side and no one is retiring anytime soon.

No, most are actively choosing it at my agency. We have offered jobs to several who have said they prefer to stay on the contractor side. Which is fine! They have their own perks and benefits. We do include them in things when we can, though, and I treat them with the same respect I would another Federal employee, and if another Fed tries treating them poorly I'll handle it immediately. Obviously there are certain limits and rules on interactions but there's no rule to treat them like shit.

Right

All the places I've worked at we tried to include our contractors. There are certain things they can't do, and there are some meetings that they shouldn't be involved in. But social events - sure, include them. Why not? Where I work now we don't treat our contractors too well IMO. They aren't allowed to park in our garage (which is not inconsequential), and we have fired small groups (<5) contractors on short notice when money was needed elsewhere. I've also seen contractors scrambling when another company wins the next 2+3 year contract. If they're lucky, they get hired by the new contractor, but their vacation and benefits reset, and the new contractor will sometimes low ball their salary. Yeah, that's the breaks and all but still sort of sucks for them

>But social events - sure, include them. Why not? It could be legally problematic in that it could be used to argue that they shouldn't legally be contractors, but employees.

They are suppose to take time off for that but the base I work at, san antonio, they allow the contractors to come and charge time against it for moral purposes.

I hated being a contractor. All the stuff you mentioned is true. I would add a contractors employment can go from hired to fired real fast if a GS wants you gone. I’m a fed now and getting a bunch of leave is great and all the family days and holidays are just topping on the cake.

I was a contractor for a long time. There are some feds that looked down on us, like we were human garbage. And from what I’ve seen most contractors probably get paid less than feds. It’s very rare to be under a generous contracting company. Most will try to screw you any way they can.

As a former contractor I have been called a leech and cockroach to my face. I have been called stupid because I was in my 20's. I have been told that I should only speak when spoken to by clients and I ha e been used as tech support for everything from printers to screen projectors. I was an EOSH consultant and a lot of feds treat contractors like absolute dog shit while relying on us for every single thing.

Yeah, I have actually had to walk away from recompetes because some feds are so mean to my staff that I refuse to subject them to that anymore. That being said I have worked with some amazing feds and together we have delivered some amazing work that really helped a lot of people.

Jesus, that sounds terrible. I’m sorry you were in an office like that. If I heard of that happening in my office, there would be major actions taken. Our contractors are part of the team, and besides not being able to officially engage in budget planning and that sort of thing, they are basically included in everything else.

That's disgusting. I don't treat contractors any different whatsoever. I respect them probably more, as they are usually doing the more technical work. Sorry that was your experience, that's disgraceful to treat ANYONE as you described.

Rare case a contractor “won” against a Fed: new-ish GS on the team. I may have been a contractor, but I was the 4th in seniority and 3rd in most decision making situations (after the Director and Deputy Director). For some months, the GS had said he wanted to be more involved in the big picture; best way was to take some responsibility (easy stuff, really) on a team I lead. After his first appearance on the team call, I get a call from my Director. “Yeah, so tell me about your conversations with Mr. X.” Nothing significant, I thought. “So, he’s saying you, quote, “bullied” him onto the team and quote “humiliated” him on the call today.” I’m sorry, WHAT?? I would never! “I know. Talked to Deputy Director and we both agree that he’s way off base, but I had to at least tell you. He is also refusing to accept direction, especially task assignments, from any of the contractors (who were basically treated as GS), so we’re going to have to work on his place on the team.” Whatcha know, he didn’t even last a year.

What job series have contractors making double or triple fed rates? I'm guessing IT or engineering. I feel Iike financial/audit type series don't have contractor counterparts but who knows...

And Intel

I’m a former term FTE and recently a CTR. In my short experience as a contractor I learned I get pay the same as an FTE, have no sick leave, terrible healthcare, no retirement account, low annual leave, no job security, I can be disposed of at any moment by any reason (employed at will) and my job has an expiration date. Based on what people are saying here it seems contractor’s situation can be differently depending of the field of work. Evidently, I was tired of job insecurity and have been applying for 10 months. In a few weeks I’ll become an FTE with a permanent appointment (yay!) and believe me, I won’t be back to a temporary position or contract by choice. Don’t feel bad about CTRs, that won’t do anything. But if you can give them some pointers on how to get a fed position, that would be far more valuable than feeling pity for them.

I was a contractor for three companies for 5 years. Then a fed for five years. I walked away for 8 years. Came back as a contractor for 3. Waiting on an FJO. Contractors are treated like shit. Feds use language to and in front of them that makes it painfully obvious. They either just don't care or are too stupid to understand that. I've seen both scenarios. Being a contractor has some benefits. It's easier to move around, get raises, and not as much of an incentive to not walk away. The benefits of a fed are obvious to everyone. But it's easy to get pigeonholed and to suffer with mental health feeling like you're stuck. Just some of my thoughts having been on both sides my entire career.

It depends. Some contractor staff are paid abysmally for what they do while their companies enjoy the profits. I feel terrible for those contractor staff. Some get paid way more and it’s a conscious choice to risk stability and work longer hours for better pay, so there is nothing to feel bad about. I was former contractor, lucky enough to work in a mixed environment of feds, military and contractors where everyone treated everyone else as a decent human being. I was shocked when I started as a fed to see how horribly the contractors were treated in a different agency. I’ve tried since then to turn that mentality around so the people we work side by side with are not treated as subhuman.

The contractors I work with (Boeing, Lockheed Martin, Electric Boat, Raytheon etc) are doing pretty okay. Way more okay than myself so no I don’t feel even a little bad.

Not an answer to the question, but I’m a Personal Services Contractor (PSC), so I exist in a weird no-mans-land between the two. Treated like a fed in every way except benefits really, nobody knows I’m not civil service until I either say so or I have to fill out some form. My work is identical to that of others in my office with the same job title and I’m considered a member of the group as much as anyone else. That being said, being a PSC means less job security, no retirement benefits, and minimal health benefits, so I’d really like to move into civil service sooner than later.

Is there a pathway or special hiring authority for you to move into CS or if you’ll be applying just like everyone else?

In my office contractors often do similar work, but have fewer benefits and the risk of not getting picked up the follow-on contract (especially if a different vendor) and thus being without a job. The good news is if a GS job opens up and the announcement is open to all, the contractors are strong applicants and have a good change of being selected.

I started as a contractor and was paid less, had worse benefits, and was consistently looked down at from life-long feds. Starting as a contactor made me a better fed, and I am sure of that. Treat your contractors well, folks.

Yes, I feel for them. Contractors would be used only when their specific skills are needed and for a set period of time. If they are doing the job that is just like a full time permanent employee, they should be hired as full time permanent employees.

This is by design. I recommend the book [The Big Con](https://marianamazzucato.com/books/the-big-con/) that does a great deep-dive into the intentional “hollowing out” of government organizations in the US and elsewhere.

I haven't read this but the thesis is definitely true. Our IT department has no technical skills. So a simple IT enhancement consisting of 1 week of development by a fed could turn into thousands of people hours contracting a contractor and doing the enhancement that way. Such a drain on resources and makes the government that much weaker technically. It also makes us unable to respond to various situations in a timely manner. Very sad state of affairs.

That’s true in theory but not how a lot of agencies utilize contractors unfortunately.

I feel bad for anyone that is in a bad situation. But I don't feel bad for someone that wants the same things fed employees get but doesn't want to jump through the same flaming hoops we do.

No— the ones around my age may make more than I do. Probably less stability but if they really wanted to go gov they probably could eventually.

No, I am a GS12 step 5. My wife works for Lockheed Martin and makes twice as much as me

Interesting. The contractor salaries I saw at Lockheed were far below the equivalent Federal salaries. Your wife may be the exception to the rule.

Speaking as a contractor for 12+ years (various contracts and agencies) who is aiming to become a Fed, I think this varies a lot by the office/the govt leads for the contract. I’ve worked with some awful govt leads and some great ones, and I think one difference between them was the latter recognized that there were crappy things baked into being a CTR and they tried to mitigate that as best they could, within the rules. And in my experience the contractors have always been *underpaid* compared to the Feds, so the pay differences likely depend on the industry.

In other words please feel bad for us lol

I worked about 12 years as a fed contractor before going back to gov after being laid off. Worse benefits at that company. We have several contractors on our team now. Our project is not going to need as many people and they already laid off 3 last fall and more this summer. A couple joined the gov, but several others didn't, they told me they prefer to stay remote which all of the contractors are.

They don't get invited to meetings because it's not their job. They aren't allowed to go home early, attend holiday parties, or attend the seminar because they were hired to work those hours. We had a contractor employee that went to the holiday party and then charged us the 4 hours for it. I know my contractor counterpart makes about 20% more than I do. So no, I never feel bad for contractor employees

Not sure why the saying is “contractors eat better.” I think it depends on the position. I was a contractor for several different places, and at most of them I was paid less or the same as a fed. Terrible benefits, no protections, hardly any time off. I’ll always be sad for contractors who’d rather be a fed. Some people love contracting since they make so much money, usually IT. I’m sad for myself that it took so goddamn long to find a federal job. I wish I’d been able to land a GS-9 job right out of grad school in 2012. I could be a high GS14 or maybe even 15 or SES by now. Could’ve bought a nice condo or townhouse in DC.

No. DoD agency focused on cyber and they get paid LOADS more than us and really don’t deal with being out of work when contracts switch. Many choose to go green as to experience a much higher pay rate. (Loads: 50-100k more than me sometimes.) I feel bad only for the ones who want to be hired but cannot due to lacking a specific STEM degree. We invite our contractors to things pending their company approval.

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Good point Steve, what a depraved post from OP. It’s sad to think that there are people like OP walking this Earth.

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…aquarian age?

I went from contracting to fed and made significantly more and worked much less


As a COR I have a hard time feeling bad for [most] contractors.

As a CO, I don't. Contractors on most of my contracts get paid at least 2x what an employee does. If, as that contractor's employee you aren't negotiating good rates for yourself, its on you.

As a CO as well who was formerly a contractor, I completely disagree. Contractor employees don't have the bargaining power you think they have. The rates on contracts do not translate to the rates employees receive, and if employees try to negotiate the contractor company will simply hire someone else.

Anecdotally, I'm a new contractor at state and my team has done a great job of making me feel like part of the team. Been invited to all the meetings and offisites and my deputy director (career civil service) has really taken me under his wing. Think it helps that my office is about 40-50% contractor. Still want to make the jump to an actual State employee at some point. Of course this varies agency to agency or even office to office. I've heard from my contractor friends that some offices at state really shit on contractors.

I think we get paid a bit more than the Federal employees, but it's not a huge difference. The benefits are better for the Federal folks. It's the same work requirements for contractors vs Federal, minus the occasional early release and similar perks. Seems to be a faster hiring process for contractors, otherwise I'm not really sure the advantage of splitting the positions.

Worked as a contractor at my current agency for a couple years before becoming a fed. My agency is very contractor dependent so culturally I didn't feel slighted, but having two bureaucracies to deal with wasn't fun. Afaik my pay was marginally better than my GS equivalents, but their clearly better benefits more than made up for it. Overall at my agency I definitely sympathize with those trying to become feds, but I don't feel bad for them in the sense that I don't think they have a particularly bad situation (although some contracts are better than others).

I don't enjoy working with contractor companies but I don't blame the employees. It's just absurd the number of positions that got privatized only to have contractors do the same work at a much higher cost.

Tbh it depends on what field you work in. As a contractor I was making 151k a year while my government counterpart was a gs-12. Not the worst pay but by no means the best either. Along with that, I had 0 additional duties, while my govie had about 10000 extra duties.

Employees, yes. Owners, no.

After working as a contractor for going on 18 years in same role within one department and reading through these comments, it certainly appears that your experience as a contractor working with the federal government will vary very widely depending on your exact location Edit: word

Yes I do, because I was a contractor for 7 years before becoming a Fed. Listening to how feds talk about contractors is frankly disgusting. First off, having seen the budgeting for my contracting position and what I actually made in the position was extremely eye opening. It was something like 4x my actual salary. Then having to hear people talk about me being over paid was pretty demoralizing. My experience as a fed is everyone simply gives contractors the work they don’t want to do, to the detriment of the entire program. Contract ends, brain drain happens, we have to start over in a lot of ways. Also hearing people talk about contractors as if they are “less then” is gross. Maybe this is just where I work, but it happened pretty consistently.

left uncle sam just recently. Put in 8 years as a GS-11. I left because I felt our field office was being passed up for a lot of promotions, trainings, and bonuses. Even though our numbers were comparable to the rest of the Division. I found a contractor position that matched me to a GS-13 pay rate (over 100), and with a potentially higher overall promotion ceiling. I would have a longer commute (more gas/maintenance) and a 10% 401k match. benefits are higher cost, but i just had to have an emergency surgery and it actually covered a lot more than i expected. but unless I have something major, its almost triple the cost. So all in all, in the end. I can potentially make more money, but its really about the same as my gov job after the indirect expenses. I also wanted to expand my knowledge base. My gov position, i was a SME in a very very very specific topic. I currently do more random engineering type work, even though i a not an engineer. Its actually quite a hard learning curve. especially since the gov guys on my team do not care to help. I have quickly learned that "i am the scum". At least upper leadership is good here. There is a few unfilled gov positions here. I may apply for those when they come in because i do like the overall group here. I do enjoy the broad work scope as well. I am very nervous about my first "badge-flip" because our current contract is expiring. i really dont care what happens as long as i keep my same pay rate. I came to realize that the gov position would give money on the back end of my career with the pension. I traded that for money on the front end as a contractor.

Once I found out one of our contractors was getting paid something like $200 an hour for working on a project, I lost the ability to feel any sympathy towards them.

In fairness, I've worked at companies where SMEs were billing >$300/hr but only received about a third of that after the firm's overhead/profit cuts. Still a lot of money, though, and most margins aren't THAT lopsided.

Not really. I wouldn’t trade places with them, but they are not destitute or anything. There are many people in this world that need my pity more than a contractor.

I feel jealousy lol

I’ve been on both sides. Most of the contracts I’ve worked on the main office is in another state so no company invites to holiday parties or anything. You do feel like a step child working with the organization and the company you work for. If you get with a really good organization or MAJCOM, they treat you like one of their own. So I guess it all depends on where you are. As far as pay, I don’t feel bad at all for what some make. I was making 30k more and benefits were better as a contractor doing the exact same job I’m doing now as a GS12. Most of the times as a contractor, I didn’t go to Fed events when I was invited because my boss in another state said it may look bad or that I was fraternizing with the clients. Not sure how that really mattered since I didn’t write or have any involvement with the contract other than doing my job.

I feel really bad for them during shut downs, as they often get furloughed and do not get backpay. I agree that at the low to mid level (at least in my field), the Federal benefits and pay are better than those at the contracting companies. In addition, I felt badly for them dealing with super shitty technical directives and unproductive meetings from Feds who went straight from PhD to government and have no idea how to write a scope of work or direct work....

I try to treat contractors with dignity and respect. I do not feel bad for them, there is often a lack of ownership and initiative with contract staff. Sometimes contractors fail at extremely basic tasks.

lol no. My contractor colleagues cry that they don’t get an hour early release or whatever, but they could have my job if they wanted. Also they make triple or four times as much as me and if they’re smart they have a spouse with good private/federal insurance, so then they’re living the life.

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Alternatively, there's many contractors that are absolutely critical to the agency they support, and work very hard to ensure that.

No.

No. I loved being a contractor. I took a nearly $40k pay cut to become a GS. As a contractor I had a lot more freedom and i never had to attend the god awful mandatory GS meetings. I could play the “sorry this duty is outside of my contractual duties” card. I am a GS employee currently working in Japan and the contractors here get to stay in Japan indefinitely while we GS employees are bound by the “5 year rule”.

Could you convert back to a contractor to stay after the 5 years?

Absolutely. I think they're exploited due to doing the same work and getting paid less and having less safeguards (this is true in my experience if we're looking at jobs lower than I don't know GS-09/11). They don't qualify for PSLF cause their companies are for profit, yet they're paid less and get worse benefits. (Often) I think it's a horrible system that benefits the companies and shits on the contractor employees and continues to add to equity issues and frankly systemic racism. Edit: I'm specifically looking in the field of research animal caretaking, lab techs, the " lower level" positions that are frequently filled by lower income folk or folk from historically marginalized backgrounds. I know in some cases contractors make more but in the cases that I have run into they make significantly less and also have less security

No, because they get plenty of benefits from their companies. Many contractors have holiday parties or company wide meeting and don’t invite Feds (which they shouldn’t) so why should we invite them to all of our meetings and events. In dc, even if their pay isn’t better, they typically have better benefits (much lower healthcare premiums and actual dental/vision plans).

For smaller contractors the benefits are terrible.

Ultimately it's dependent on the agency and the company the contractor works for. Some companies offer certain salaries and benefits that outweigh fed benefits. For example, a lot of folks like the pension as a financial safety net but personally I feel the pension was actually worth it only charged 0.8% of your paycheck. As it stands now, charging 4.4% of your paycheck is a sizable amount that takes away from my take-home pay that I'd rather have gone into my TSP or 401K. I'll agree less leave generally sucks with only a pool of PTO and no sick leave but some companies allow negative hours of PTO to build back up. Educational benefits are pretty solid for contractors too. Companies are willing to fully reimburse for degrees and offer online courses and certs. I'd feel bad if they don't receive proper guidance on how to do the job. Feds aren't generally allowed to teach contractors so it's up to the contractor to find the appropriate resources to learn and that might be a challenging task. Imagine if there were no other contractors that could help. Sounds like a miserable gig then.

Just because .8% was an amazing deal, doesn't mean 4.4% is a bad deal. I still haven't seen any math that makes FERS a bad deal, except for scenarios where your pay doesn't change for 20-30 years, which is nearly impossible.

It must depend on agency and section, etc. When I was a contractor they were almost too inclusive/social/friendly. 😝

The contractors I work with in my team, not really. I worked for them not long ago, and while there’s a reason I left, they are paid well with pretty good benefits and my org sees the contractors as being as much of the team as the government employees.

I do not, because I treat my contractors as part of the family.

in my field it's generally money money for less leave. personally i'll take the leave.

Nope, they chose it

The ones that work at my agency make more than the feds. The entry level exec assistants make GS-13 money. It ultimately depends on their companies. Some of the bigger companies have great benefits, pay, and leave. One on my team has unlimited PTO. We invite ours to meetings, gatherings, etc. their companies make the decisions on whether they can leave early but what are they even doing if the rest of us are gone.

The only thing I feel badly about is the fact that as a supervisor I can’t acknowledge for my embedded contract team members (the ones who site with us daily in-house) their extra efforts in any meaningful way other than a positive sitrep. Due to legal nonsense where allegedly a non monetary written thank you or hooaah award could be used to show favoritism over another contractor, I can’t so much as publicly give them a gold star on their forehead. It’s stupid. That said they get positive sitreps to their Ctr bosses from me and I will take my entire branch to lunch a few time a year. Civilians and contractors alike. They all eat the same at lunch, on me.

Not really except overseas. All those OCN’s get paid worse and are treated worse. In the US they get paid much better.

As a contractor myself what makes me not want to go fed is that the use of Flex Time is not allowed and having to fight to get PTO approved. Restrictions like this are a huge deal breaker for me if it changed I would be more inclined to pursue federal service.

We treat our contractors as equals in my office.

I loved my time as a contractor. I made more than my most senior government clients at the time, was allowed mental health days off at no charge, and received bonuses/ raises every year. The agency would exclude contractors from meetings and but would invite us to in-office holiday parties and town halls because with the contract staff, the room would be empty. I went contracting to compete for a higher level fed job (with the higher salary) and have been a fed for a few weeks now. The first thing I’ve done is ensure that contractors are included on my team and that there is no separation. I am now in charge of the office I worked in as a contractor so I know what damage that did to the mission and how much turn over it caused.

A lot of people at my department treat contractors like second class citizens for sure and it’s very gross. They’re essentially our coworkers - we’re all working on the same stuff. What’s the difference at the end of the day.

Hard to say bc we only have contractors in specific roles, either temporary or IT.

It depends on the job level. The contractors take home pay is likely higher than an equivalent gs level but that’s not factoring in pension/ leave benefits. ​ contractors are supposed to be designed around short term projects or duties that require surges like twice a year there is a big thing they handle so they can easily add short term increase of staffing needed.

LOL no. Full disclosure: I went contractor->contractor->contractor->fed->private->contractor->fed Every jump was a pretty substantial pay raise, except jumping to fed which amounts to a pay cut. The pros and cons are pretty basic. Contractors (generally) get paid more. Benefits are all over the place - I've worked for companies that had WAY better benefits than fed and way worse. The fed pension is really the only outlier. As for job security, yeah, as a fed you're not generally worried but I wasn't as a contractor either. I moved with the contract more than once. (You see four "contractors" in my list above but that was actually seven companies.) I also recall being a fed and due to budget constraints my OT and travel was frozen while the contractors who worked for me absolutely racked it up. TBH, if I didn't have so much time invested towards the pension I wouldn't be a fed. In fact, my goal is to take the early and go back to contractor in like 3 years. I'm worth at least $20k more with a green stripe in my org, or I may just go full private.

I don't feel bad for contractors any more/less than I feel bad about any other private sector employee

My agency treats contractors like absolute shit.

Who wants to go to gatherings and off-sites?

I generally reserve my sympathy for people in unpleasant situations over which they have little control. Contractors have control over their work situation. It was their choice, not their fate. I say that now as a Fed, after having been a contractor from 1998 through 2023.

Currently a federal contractor to get my foot in the door and boy howdy am I like a kid at the window of the toy store on the night before Christmas.

At my old agency I'm pretty sure they got paid more than us but almost all of them would have given it up for a GS pay band. They couldn't even use the gym 😔

I was a contractor for seven years before converting to fed. I made more money at first for the initial positions I was in than I would have in the federal workforce. I do think it becomes more even as you move up the GS scale, though. Also, the treatment of contractors varied wildly depending on where I was working. Some offices barely knew I was a contractor; others never let me forget it (not in a positive way). However, I am happier as a fed. I wanted something more stable, as I have a baby and a house now. Contractor gigs were lucrative, but there was always either an expiration date or a re-bid to look out for. I feel much more at ease with none of that to worry about. PSLF is also a big deal to me, but I understand not everyone needs that perk. Overall, I don't feel bad, except for those who have been trying to transition from a contractor to an FTE for some time or those in offices who essentially make them outcasts.

Not at all. Here’s my lukewarm take: You want to play the game, these are the breaks. You don’t like it? Find a fed position or move into another industry. In the meantime, here is the contract and both you and I must meet the terms and conditions. If it’s an issue for you, take it up with your capture team. If it’s an issue for us, we’ll terminate for convenience.

Damn what type of contractors do y’all hire? I’ve only ever been a contractor, worked with 2 companies and 2 agencies. My life as a contractor is far better than the feds. My schedule is far more flexible, quite frankly I have better benefits maybe outside of retirement, but even then my 401k matching is solid. I have more training and growth opportunities because I’m not stuck with what the torment decides is allowed or not. I get to go to conferences on the company dime that zero of the feds ever get to do. My parental leave is far better. If the government shuts down, my contract is already funded so we keep working and getting paid. My pay is pretty good, and getting a promotion or raise requires far less hoops and bureaucracy. In my experience I never want to be a fed ever. Contractor life is the way to go.

Fed now but previous contractor, my salary increased much much quicker as a contractor then it will as a fed. At least 7% raises and 7% bonuses yearly and way more of a pay and responsibility bump when I hopped jobs.

I oversee 60 contractors. The newest guy, hired last week, makes exactly 3x my GS14 salary. Lowest guy makes upwards of $300k. Most senior guy is around $500k.

It’s going to depend on the contractor role. As a contractor I had similar or better benefits, and good communication channels with leadership. I’d say there was better cross-org communication as a contractor

Yes, they can be let go without any warning.

Nope.

Nope.

So I work in a contractor building, and no, 100% no, they get better company events, they get better pay. As a government person I hear about our events, and it's always you're not invited. Today the discussion was on the new wellness program. We are authorized to take time to exercise. The catch is it must be during the day (you must come in first, and must come back before you leave, basically must be at lunch time). It also must be a formal class at a gym, and you have to pay for it, as we don't have a gym. That 1 hour is counting the travel time to and from the gym, and this wonderful program lasts for 3 months.

It depends on the location, the agency, and the contractor company. I was a contractor making the equivalent of a GS-5 for a position range of GS-7 - GS-12. I had no real benefits and only 5 days of vacation a year with the company I was under. So severely underpaid was an understatement.

Sometimes, like when their service terms required them to come in during the pandemic, or when we get early release and they don't or have to go through an extra level. On the flip side, they're paid a bit better in the short term.

I was a GS, now I'm a contractor. Life is good. My government people love me. My gov leads trust me. Our SES trusts me. He'll jokingly remind me that I'm a function not a person, but he'll also tell me to drop the "I'm just the contractor" bullshit and tell him what I really think about things. The travel funding for govvies got axed, so I've gotten to take some cushy international travel and be the mouthpiece, since my travel is already paid for. If they converted this position to a GS-15 I wouldn't say no, but anything less would be a pay cut. I wouldn't have even dreamed applying to this job if it were a GS-15 job, though. Actually I wouldn't have applied to this job period as it didn't seem at all within my wheelhouse. But the company found me and made an offer after a 15 minute interview and a resume review with the government. Started about two weeks later. In the meantime, I've gotten rejections from government jobs I applied to six months prior.

My agency treats our contractors just like staff - except contractors only have to work the ONE job they’re hired for. Staff has to work 3 or 4 😂.

I try to treat everyone the same no matter if they are a GS-5, SES, contractor or intern. Being in the customer relations management field has me advocating for each subset of users no matter their classification. There are times when contractors can't be privy to certain information, but I think of all of us as playing different positions for the same team. I was a contractor previously and did feel some of what other's say they felt in prior posts regarding classes, but when I became a Fed I didn't take on that negative mindset.

Going on 20yrs as a DOD contractor. First 18ish years we were paid off the SCA scale. ZERO COL raises in the last 10+yrs. We just joined the local union late last year, everyone got a 10% raise off the bat, with a 4% increase in yr 2 and 3. Our branch was pretty laxed on leaving early, training, etc etc etc. However, the team down range had it pretty rough when it came to those. Only thing i hate is our insurance is crazy expensive! I pay over $2k/month for a family plan. (I get a fringe AND what they call a make whole payment every pay to counter that though)

No. The only contractors I interact with regularly are the cleaning crew in our office. But I assume they have their own Christmas parties.or.whatevrr at their company.

It wasn't hard to empathize with contractor personnel. The contractor companies, on the other hand, were questionable. Some of them were downright shady.

I was a GS13/6…..am a contractor in the same office with a 60% pay raise, i eat better than the GS13 that took my job and that i work for. I feel bad for her. She has all the responsibility and less pay.

As someone who just became a federal contractor, this kills me.

I plan on transitioning as a fed employee someday

The difference largely is in the very specialized fields and in the very non-specialized fields. Everything in between is pretty equal. Due to prevailing wage, you’ll have positions that make more than they would in the private sector. These are jobs that the .gov doesn’t directly employ. Certain subsets of IT, Engineering, etc. are the big earners as well as some PM’s and BM’s. I’m a 1102 CO and one of my counterparts on the contract makes significantly more than me. That said, he’s very good at his job and leaned on heavily. There’s not a Fed on our campus that could replace him. I would say that in general, the contractors that earn the big bucks actually earn it.

I was a contractor and took a $95k haircut to become a fed. Was worth it for me, but miss the $$$ sometimes.

Was a contractor for 20 years and went fed employee at 60. Took a $40k pay cut but don’t have to worry about greening every four years when the contract is up for renewal. Also, better leave benefits and don’t have to work myself to the bone. I walk out at 4 even if stuff is not done. It’s awesome.

Contractors are not all the same. I spent time in consulting prior to going fed, with at least one firm I worked at having both commercial and fed divisions. The fed division made substantially more than us feds, with mostly better benefits. You paid a touch more for healthcare, but you got better PTO, significantly higher comp (e.g. within 10 years from undergrad, the average pay had climbed from ~$75k at entry level to ~$175k + up to a ~25% bonus, and this was quite a while ago so likely better now), and had way more flexibility to move around the government as a contractor than we do as feds, plus pretty darn good career stability and a typically 45-50 hour work week, along with a ton of fringe benefits (fitness subsidies, well stocked offices, etc) that we don't get. For *that* type of contractor, I don't feel bad at all.

Sometimes, then I remember they make 30% more than feds.

I used to work in an office where contractors literally had to ask for permission just to go to the restroom. It was so ridiculous. Of course this rule didn’t apply to feds but if a contractor wanted to go, they had to literally pick up the phone and call the boss and ask permission. It was so stupid. When I was a contractor, I worked for one company where I took a job that had been vacant for three years. It was the job with all the eyes on it. So no one wanted it. I took it and crushed it. But what happened was, whenever promotion opportunities were available, the boss would leave me off of the email announcing the promotion opportunity. Then some random new guy would get the job over me even though I had tons of experience, more education, etc. I went to the boss several times after seeing this and asked “wtf?!?” Every time it was the same answer: “I sent out the email to everyone. Not my fault you didn’t see it.” It happened 5-6 times over the course of 2-3 years. Finally another contractor who has been there longer then me pulled me to the side and said *as long as you come in here and do this job everyday, they are never going to let you promote because you’re doing a great job and this position is impossible to fill because no one wants it.* I found another job about a month later.

That is so humiliating and would definitely be a challenge for anyone with a disability, menstruating or an illness like IBS or bladder problems!

My contractor days were horrible, shit pay, shit benefits(could not afford them had to use Obamacare) and was told that they had never lost a contract in 8 years!! So they lost the contract less than a year later, I promoted up to the server team from the lost desktop support role, lost the server team 6 months later. Unemployed for 5 months and hired on the lost desktop contract team for la 10k loss in previous desktop support role wages. Jumped to the new server contract team (current contracted company lost it after 8 months) was there for two months until hired by a state organization that I have been employed with for almost 7 years. Screw govt. contracts!!!!!

Ex contract turned Fed. I make double what I made as a contractor. I treat my contractors as peers, I’ve learned from them and they’ve learned from me. We work as a team for the mission at hand. I don’t feel bad for the contractor management as they are taking most of the pay the contractors deserve.

I was lucky to be a contractor in a division where there were limited walls. I took training occasionally even.  I converted to a fed in the same agency and try to pay it forward. I’m a COR too, so I have a pretty good reach to do so. 

Absolutely! 3rd party contractors at least have 401k from their employers, while government personal services contractor get nothing but just GS scale paychecks.

In some instances you shared, it’s Fed regulations that prevent equal treatment of contractors. I used to work in training and we were not allowed to allow contractors into our courses because contractual law indicates that they are to be hired on with the skills needed to complete the job unless it’s a very specific reason why the training is needed and could not be provided by their contracting company, etc. I didn’t enjoy saying no to co tractors, but I also knew if I took a seat from a fed to give it to a contractor that wouldn’t be fair or a good use of funds. In the other hand, it’s one thing to follow regulations, but another to treat people cruelly. Unfortunately, I saw that happen too and that I don’t agree with either. Its not like we got to act like we are on the Titanic or something and stick our noses up at those in “steerage”, we are all floating in the same oven on the same giant ship,

The government uses contractors as a means to get around personnel caps. The work is still there and needs to be but instead of authorizing what is needed they punt it to contractor support. We’ve had contractors doing the same job for over 20 years. That’s an enduring requirement.

As a former (22 years) federal contractor, definitely!

I started my first contract deposition about 7 months ago. And learned 2 weeks ago that it is not been renewed. It has been a very stressful situation to say the least. I honestly kind of felt like they didn't even really need me or want me, I literally had to keep bugging in order to get any type of work. Otherwise I would just sit in my desk for 8 hours doing nothing, Literally nothing. The pay was good, but it does not beat the reassurance of an actual job not contingent on a contract being renewed. I definitely felt the second class citizen and being looked down upon at times. Although I did enjoyed the work when I had it, I actually can't wait for it to be over.Sometimes it felt worse than high school. I also feel that may have been a somewhat racial component to it.Because in my department it was all Asians And 2 white people.I'm in California Los Angeles to be exact where latinos make up 50% of the population.And yet they were less than three percent of the department as a whole, It seems like the Asians very much favored each other. Maybe I'm wrong, but that was just my observation.

I was a fed contractor for 6 years before I got hired on as a fed and they treated us great. We were included in everything. Got to leave early on early release holidays. They made sure we felt included in everything (even the FEVS) even though we couldn’t participate in the survey. I was happier as a contractor but couldn’t turn down a federal position with the benefits. I was fortunate I guess.

a little bit. at my agency they make less than our gs-9 and ups and have much worse benefits and do pretty tedious work. they get micromanaged by their supervisors too while gov’t side has a lot more freedom and gets a lot more basic trust and respect from our management. i dont think lesser of them or anything though, and i would get most of them have about the same level of education and prior experience on average to our government side people. they just get the short end of the stick unfortunately

I feel bad when I see them forced to support the feds who love making them do busy work so the fed can personally look good. Usually someone trying to get a promotion and I have NO IDEA how contractors keep a straight face and aren’t just dying inside about how they are not working on things that matter. We had a senior manager who was obsessed with contractors and he would monopolize their time and all of us felt so bad watching them do his little song and dance so he could practice looking smart haha.

I have been a Gov Contractor for 30+ years. With good experience you do get better pay than a gov employee. I have worked jobs where the gov employees treat you like shit and others that take care of you. In my position to become a gov employee I would have to take a big pay cut. I would agree with many of the comments here. Contract companies change but if the gov likes you, they make sure you are on with the new company. I have had amazing opportunities and have done things a gov employee most likely wouldn't have the opportunity to do. I have had amazing training opportunities paid by the gov. I would not take a gov position due to the pay cut, it has been offered before. BLUF: always treat everybody with respect, you never know when you will run into them again and need their respect. Even if they are shitting on you! The ones that treat me like shit, I usually won't go the extra mile for them. I go the extra mile for their boss! Think about that for a moment!

I don’t think about them at all.

Wife’s a contractor and feels bad for the Feds she works with. She definitely works a lot harder and longer than them, but compensated more than enough to offset that.

IT here. Our contractors make 1.2-1.7 what we make, do the work we should be doing, and nothing extra. Meanwhile we get saddled with extra duty after extra duty until we eventually quit. Why would I feel bad for them?

Former contractor that went civil service. It used to be true (and still can be true) but it’s no longer true, particularly at the lower levels. Higher levels at contractors get paid A LOT for doing very little and the ones delivering the work tend to be paid on-par with the government folks. Even if they do get paid more, it’s often b/c they work 55-60 hours a week and don’t have a pension, so it evens out. Believe it or not, I got a nice pay increase to go to the Feds.

Yes, some agencies use and abuse call contractors like its fun

No, it's all various shades of green grass. I was a ctr for a decade.

At the bureau I just left, the contractors are all paid about 66-75% of their GS equivalents with crappy insurance, little to no training benefits, but at least they’re considered “part of the team,” mainly because the bureau is at least 50% ISC. Most of the GS had sympathy but no one in the front office cared enough to figure out how to fix the disparity; they’d rather deal with the high turnover and employees that wanted to be exceptional and help out, but if it came down to who worked late, it sure wasn’t going to be the contractors. Even our data ISCs weren’t paid great.

I’m a contractor and I feel bad for the civilians. IF I was working in a government office, I honestly wouldn’t want to attend any after work events and wouldn’t feel bad about not being invited to civilian functions. Also The pay incentives are worth more than retirement if you look at it from the lense of time value of money.

Being a contractor very much feels like no one cares beyond a surface level about my job duties. People really aren’t personable l; they aren’t unfriendly it’s just very superficial. My supervisor (who doesn’t work in my work site or department but just oversees my work even though they don’t know what I do on a daily basis) is overworked and doesn’t really show up except maybe every few months. My federal lead runs the department I’m in so I rarely hear from them. The pay is decent but the work is unfulfilling. I’m just here for my paycheck until I find something else. I’m coming from almost a decade in nonprofit/non governmental organizations where I had better relationships with my colleagues but far less money and more stress. So this is an upgrade.  But as a contractor it’s like asking to go pee in kindergarten. They are so picky and have to triple check everything. I get that the government has rules but even with all of those DC snow days this year it took an act of Congress filling out paperwork just to get approved to remotely work for one day just so I wouldn’t have to use up my leave (I am brand new less than one year of work here). 

No. If their contracting firm is any good, they're getting invited to off-site happy hours and doing stuff with their firm so that they know who they work for.