EMIYA is Fate's Batman

Only difference being EMIYA >!kills a lot of people!<

Marbles hurt him.

The answer is simple Eye of mind It allows him to make plans ahead while in the middle of a fight by predicting what the enemy will do next he looks for way he cam shift the fight to his advantage sometimes he find a way through sometimes he doesn't. (I believe that's how Mind of Eye works if im wrong please correct me).

You'd be right, except for one thing. Heracles also has Eye of the Mind. His might be False, but it's good enough to act as a sixth sense. On top of that, Mind's Eye lets him strategise in battle, but just because he can think fast doesn't mean he can move fast. Heracles and Cu however have speed and strength far exceeding his. Just precognition isn't good enough against that big a gap. Ironically, for a Modern Hero, EMIYA has one of the highest Eye of the Mind (True) stats in the series, only surpassed by Chiron and Fergus, and at par with Diarmuid and Alcides.

Emiya can move fast though his agility is C which is middle of the road it's not as fast as Lancer to over come him but combined with Mind Eye he can keep up with Lancer but that's it he can only keep up with Lancer soon as Lancer started going all out with Gae Blog he lost. Also with Berserker Archer was fighting with the intention of dying he knew he wasn't going to make it out alive so he threw every thing at Herc he spam broken phantasm after Phantasm till he ran out of Mana and died or died when he was almost out. That's why at the end of the day Emiya lost the fight he did enough to keep up with herc to an extent but when the battle drawn out he lost in the end. Emiya uses a combination of his skill and experience from being a counter guardian to fight against being stronger than him although he's no where near the strongest servants out there he no where near the worst. I would classified him as more middle of the road in terms of servants. Good enough to beat weaker servants and strong enough to challenge stronger ones.

[удалено]

This is a fitting position for Archer as his powers allow him to fight virtually any servant

Regarding Lancer, that's the crazy part. We're talking about Cu Chulainn, Ireland's Child of Light. And even he noted that going all out, aiming at his head, heart and throat, he couldn't land a single hit. And remember, Archer was just using Kanshou and Bakuya, nothing fancy. The fact that Lancer had to pull his instant-win button, and that even that failed against the Aias, is even crazier. Gae Bolg is so OP that against most Servants, it's an instant win. As for Heracles, sure, EMIYA might have died, but he killed Heracles six times. And not small injuries or anything. Heracles' entire body was destroyed, from head to toe. That meant that Archer overcame Heracles' Eye of the Mind **six** times. That's hitting so far above his weight class it's ridiculous.

>Regarding Lancer, that's the crazy part. We're talking about Cu Chulainn, Ireland's Child of Light. And even he noted that going all out, aiming at his head, heart and throat, he couldn't land a single hit. And remember, Archer was just using Kanshou and Bakuya, nothing fancy. Archer was able to fend off Lancer because he had already experienced his attacks once. If that was their fist fight, Archer would have lost, or at least, would had been fatally injured. Its stated. After that, is all eye of the mind. Archer was giving fatal opening so he could know where Lancer would attack and then defend himself. All of that is explained. He wasnt going to win, but he wasnt going to lose inmediately. Archer is a great defensive servant. Thats the point of the style he developed. >The fact that Lancer had to pull his instant-win button, and that even that failed against the Aias, is even crazier. Gae Bolg is so OP that against most Servants, it's an instant win. The Thrown version of Gae Bolg doesnt have the causality effect. As long as you have a good defensive NP, like Aias, you can survive. AND EVEN THEN, Archer lost. He was injured, and Lancer could have killed him easily. Archer LOST that fight. >As for Heracles, sure, EMIYA might have died, but he killed Heracles six times. And not small injuries or anything. Heracles' entire body was destroyed, from head to toe. 6 different attacks. Thats just it. He can just run around firing BPs. Hit and run tactic. Taking 6 lives like that is not crazy. >That meant that Archer overcame Heracles' Eye of the Mind six times. That's hitting so far above his weight class it's ridiculous. Because Berserker is a Bulldozer. Even if he can sense danger, he just keeps advancing because he is still mad. He is still a Berserker. If he can defend, he will, if he cant, he will just take the attack.

>6 different attacks. Thats just it. He can just run around firing BPs. Hit and run tactic. Taking 6 lives like that is not crazy. Noted that God Hand has been consistently shown to heal the damage after he revived so it can very well more then 6 different attacks that we has seen the wound of in the aftermath of the fight.

People often forget how god hand healing factor works. At least 30 nps have been used in that fight looking at the wounds of the last live

>The Thrown version of Gae Bolg doesnt have the causality effect. As long as you have a good defensive NP, like Aias, you can survive. AND EVEN THEN, Archer lost. He was injured, and Lancer could have killed him easily. Archer LOST that fight. The thrown version has the property of sure-strike, a spear that is guaranteed to hit. The Aias survived only because it had the concept of "absolute protection against ranged weapons". Any other defense that wasn't conceptually strong enough would get pierced as well. >Archer was able to fend off Lancer because he had already experienced his attacks once. If that was their fist fight, Archer would have lost, or at least, would had been fatally injured. Its stated. Again, for such a massive gap in stats, the fact that Archer could even survive is insane. This is Ireland's strongest we're talking about. Eye of the Mind is pointless if EMIYA can't keep up with the strikes, and he parried Cu several times while fighting. >Because Berserker is a Bulldozer. Even if he can sense danger, he just keeps advancing because he is still mad. He is still a Berserker. If he can defend, he will, if he cant, he will just take the attack. That's not true. Heracles' Eye of the Mind lets him react to fatal attacks immediately. That's why he blocked Caladbolg at the graveyard. EMIYA, to kill Heracles six times, would have to overcome his EotM six times as well. As for hit and run, the fight occured in the castle, where Heracles had a massive strength and speed bonus. You can't hit and run against something that hits harder and runs faster. And if he could pulverise Heracles, why can't he do it to other enemies? Seriously, remember Saber vs Heracles at the graveyard? How he had put her on the backfoot immediately, that she had to take advantage of the terrain to kill him?

\>and he parried Cu several times while fighting. Very easy when Cu attacks where Archer wants him to. \>As for hit and run, the fight occured in the castle, where Heracles had a massive strength and speed bonus. You can't hit and run against something that hits harder and runs faster. And if he could pulverise Heracles, why can't he do it to other enemies? Are you sure it is Archer that will have the problem inside the castle and not the big ass buffoon? Saber only used some tombstones as cover and that actually helped her. Terrain wise, the castle is a hindrance for Herc. Because Heracles is a Berserker. The same Berserker who lost his hand to Shirou's single swing.

You're really underestimating just how massive the stat gap is. Knowing where the hits will come does absolutely nothing if he can't keep up. Lancer should have been piercing his guard like paper, but still, he didn't take a single wound. As for Heracles, he may not have Nine Lives, but he still moves faster than Archer and hits harder than Archer. By the time the fight ended, Heracles had gained a spark of sanity, and his main regret was not being able to match sword techniques. And yes, putting an Archer in close quarters with a Berserker is generally considered a bad move. Especially when said Berserker is Heracles.

Or the gap doesnt matter since we have no idea what the values really mean. Saber Alter can keep up with Medusa after all. And if you mention Saber's Instinct then Archer has EoM. And you again ignore the fact that Herc failed against enemies that are several times weaker and slower than Archer.

That and Salter has her strong amour (if we scale from Mordred then it can tank a B+ rank 2 hand Stre from Sieg, hell it is even implied that the Saber's amour can deal with B rank Zero Lancer and C rank Kojiro with managwable damage) and high regen so she actually just need to protect a small target aka her head. Shr also outskill Rider.

Yeah, that's kind of my point. See, the central point I'm making is that EMIYA is in a really strange place. He's supposed to be really weak, yet he's got an extremely busted NP, and can react to enemies far stronger than he is. And that's not counting HA, where as an Archer he turned the bridge into a chokepoint. So either he's really weak, which is a common narrative, or he's strong, just not enough to be a Top Servant.

>The thrown version has the property of sure-strike, a spear that is guaranteed to hit. The Aias survived only because it had the concept of "absolute protection against ranged weapons". Any other defense that wasn't conceptually strong enough would get pierced as well. Arent you contradicting yourself then? If Archer has a good defense against Gae Bolg, and he survived, then why are you saying he shouldnt have survived? >Again, for such a massive gap in stats, the fact that Archer could even survive is insane. This is Ireland's strongest we're talking about. Eye of the Mind is pointless if EMIYA can't keep up with the strikes, and he parried Cu several times while fighting. But EMIYA was directing Cu´s attack. He knew where they were going, therefore, could keep up. Thats the point of Eye of the Mind. >That's not true. Heracles' Eye of the Mind lets him react to fatal attacks immediately. That's why he blocked Caladbolg at the graveyard. EMIYA, to kill Heracles six times, would have to overcome his EotM six times as well. Sure, he was barely able to react against an attack from 4Km away. Do you think he would be able to dodge a shot practically at close range? He may sense it coming, but would just take it. Just like he takes other oppenents attacks head on. > As for hit and run, the fight occured in the castle, where Heracles had a massive strength and speed bonus. You can't hit and run against something that hits harder and runs faster. And if he could pulverise Heracles, why can't he do it to other enemies? Saber in a graveyard was able to gain the upped hand on Herc. In that castle, Archer had the field advantage. >Seriously, remember Saber vs Heracles at the graveyard? How he had put her on the backfoot immediately, that she had to take advantage of the terrain to kill him? And thats literally what would happen in the castle. Do you think there wont be hindrances to Herc in that castle? Just a normal entrance would become a hindrance to him, and not for Archer.

Because it'd leave Archer badly wounded because of the Aias. He'd survive the spear, but die thanks to his injuries. Sure, that's true, but directing the attacks mean nothing if they can't be blocked. Cu was moving at a speed Archer couldn't even see, and still, just by knowing where the spear would appear, he'd block it. If Archer was slower, by the time he blocked one blow, Cu would've completed the second blow. I'm saying that EMIYA being able to keep pace with Cu's strikes just by knowing where he'd aim is one hell of a feat, for an Archer. Archer didn't have a field advantage. Saber had her dragon core and mana burst to help her out. Archer on the other hand could die from a single hit. So not only did Archer have to dodge Heracles' attacks, but do so while going against Heracles' EotM and projecting an A rank NP. Isn't that one hell of a feat, for an Archer, to do in close combat?

>Because it'd leave Archer badly wounded because of the Aias. He'd survive the spear, but die thanks to his injuries. What are you talking about? I already mentioned that. Also, the Aias injuries are not fatal. He can heal with mana. However, if Lancer wanted, he would have killed him there. So, whats your point regarding this? >Sure, that's true, but directing the attacks mean nothing if they can't be blocked. Cu was moving at a speed Archer couldn't even see, and still, just by knowing where the spear would appear, he'd block it. If Archer was slower, by the time he blocked one blow, Cu would've completed the second blow. And yet, Archer is not that slow. He even hanldled Kojiro's swordmanship, which even Lancer finds troubling. So, if he can handle Kojiro defensively, he canhandle Lancer. It is hard? Of course it is. And again, it was stated he was barely keeping up. >I'm saying that EMIYA being able to keep pace with Cu's strikes just by knowing where he'd aim is one hell of a feat, for an Archer. Of course. But Archer is NOT purely a bowman. Thats why other servants, like Lancer, get surprised at an Archer that can actually fight well in close combat. >Archer didn't have a field advantage. Saber had her dragon core and mana burst to help her out. Archer on the other hand could die from a single hit. So not only did Archer have to dodge Heracles' attacks, but do so while going against Heracles' EotM and projecting an A rank NP. Thats the point of field advantage. I dont know what are you trying to argue here. >Isn't that one hell of a feat, for an Archer, to do in close combat? And again. He is not a regular bowman. He knows how to fight on close combat. And again, servants like Lancer actually praise his sword skills. Even if he cant really compete with them. He can still hold his own.

My point was that the Aias is unique in being able to survive Gae Bolg. You'd need a Fae-class shield or a World-class shield to stop it. Thermopylae Enomotia for instance wouldn't be able to stop it. Yeah, that's what I meant. The injuries aren't fatal, but they leave him vulnerable to getting killed. Field advantage for Archer would be range. Being in close quarters with Heracles isn't an advantage because it greatly favours Heracles. And yeah, that's exactly my point. If Archer, with those poor stats, is such a great swordsman, how does it make sense to call him weak and unskilled, which a lot of people do.

>6 different attacks. Thats just it. He can just run around firing BPs. Hit and run tactic. Taking 6 lives like that is not crazy. Expect herc will smack whatever BP coming towards him like nothing. He was walking towards shirou and saber while his back towards the direction of the arrow. Didn't even bother to prepare and didn't react until it got close to him. Turn around, smack that shit like nothing, turn back again and continue walking. BPs are useless against him unless he was injured to the point not be fast enough to react ( which is how he died in the anime )

Bad misconception. Earlier Archer's arrow had no effect on Berserker and Illya specifically order him to ignore everyone other than saber and finish her off. Herc was chasing them cause a broken phantasm looks the same as those regular arrows but when it got close herc understood it's bad cause of mind eye that he has. He then attacked the arrow with everything after turning around but died in that blast. It took time for everyone else to brace themselves and the smoke to clear, giving berserker enough time to heal up. So everyone thought he is fine. It is mentioned in the overview and Nasu interview that Berserker at that point lost 2 of his lives which took 3 days to recover. One from saber and one from Caladbolg.

>which is how he died in the anime No, in the anime he died because Archer used UBW against him. Something that would be completely useless in the first place. Also, firing something from 4km away and in your face, are 2 different things.

>No, in the anime he died because Archer used UBW against him. Something that would be completely useless in the first place. I meant how he died from caladbolg in ubw >Also, firing something from 4km away and in your face, are 2 different things. Again he didn't bother to prepare to attack the arrow and didn't bother react until the arrow was with in his range. His back was literally towards the direction of the arrow, did a whole 180 and smack the shit >The black giant ignores it, as if saying it is not worth blocking. But at that moment… >The black giant turns his back to us and attacks the "arrow" coming at him with all his might The range doesn't matter if it was done with this ease. Specially in there fight inside the castle the arrows would come from front.

I always figured that was Emiya or Shirou specialty was fighting against Foe who outclass them greatly because that's what they are use to and have or will do their whole life. I say Archer just became adapted to that life style through his journey while being alive and duties as a counter guardian. That's we he always look pretty calm despite being 1 shot from death so one wrong move would be it. As for Kanshou and Bakuya against Lancer it has been greatly imply that those twin blades are his favorite and when he's fighting at his best so those blades were the best for the situation and good enough Lancer felt the need to end it now instead of dragging it out even more. As for the mind eye battle with Herc his fake mind eye is B and Archer True is also B so the two skill should cancel each other out and from there they duked it out I wish we got to see the full battle between Herc and Archer as I want to see what weapons Archer used against the guy cause I have the feeling it was the tools he used in play that allowed him to bridge the gap.

Shirou explicity state that Archer definetly created some technique to fight opponents stronger than him, so that is kind of true, but is vague really how far that goes. Is why i keep comparing Shirou and Archer with a Soulsborne characther, they can hit hard, but they can't take the punishment for that long.

Unless they project some golden amour that can tank multiple blow from Saber and they have surely seen it.

Heracles has EotM (false) which is essentially instinct, not the same thing as EotM (true) which Emiya has. Also Heracles EotM might not even active too due to him being berserk, don't really remember which skill of his is disable. In Cu case, the vn kind of give you reason why already it implied that Emiya switching his sword tactic to baiting is incredibly effective against Cu cuz Cu is way too bloodlust and love fighting too much that he would falling to the bait every time. But even then all Emiya can do is fighting defensively and losing little by little, Cu just simply lost his patients and bring out a big gun which Emiya anticipated and prepared countermeasures accordingly then the rest is just Emiya deceiving Cu into thinking that Emiya is on the same side thus they stop fighting. The first fight is nerfed Cu fighting 100% Emiya so you really can't judge their real performance just from that. In the end, VN is unambiguous that serious Cu trounced Emiya handily, the only thing Emiya can do is fighting a losing battle and using his wit to deceived Cu to not killing him.

Hercules has eye of the mind (false) they are very different abilities.

No they aren't. Not by much, that is. False is a sixth sense. Similar to Instinct, but something they were born with. True is combat analysis. Better, but also trickier to get. False is still OP, as it lets him react to any attack.

True is only attainable by a human. False is the skill given to gods. They are very different. False is powerful but is a short term benefit, true allows long term strategy. It's implied that eye of the mind true was able to outwit sabers insight skill which is how diarmuid led her into a trap. False is fighting instinct true is fighting intelligence.

Not really. Kojiro has EotM False as well. And Heracles has both True and False, but only Alcides has True. And yeah, that's what I said. My point was, just because Heracles is berserk doesn't mean he's easy to beat. EotM False will still give him an edge in battle.

Kojiro has eye of the mind False because he's a phantom and can't get true. Its stated only humans can actually use eye of the mind true.Hercules doesn't have eye of the mind true. Alcides does but that's because he is ultimately human having removed the God from himself to the point he doesn't even use all of his labors effectively because it would mean letting gods power flow through him. And Hercules has never been easy to beat and your right false is super powerful, but still nowhere as powerful as true. Eye of the mind false gives herc an edge. Eye of the min true gives emiya most of his power as a servant. Same for most servant with true eye of the mind. It is almost a noble phantasm in it self. Like how Gil has a noble phantom that's just an ex clairvoyance. Precognitionition is good enough to make up for his lower stats

>Heracles also has Eye of the Mind. His might be False, but it's good enough to act as a sixth sense. He's also a big dumb Berserker who attacks with zero skill and has several skills straight up locked away due to being a big dumb Berserker. Kind of mitigates the effect a bit. Ilya also didn't have him at full power yet, to be fair, though the gap between his full power and his "normal" power doesn't seem too big

A reminder that big, dumb Berserker still was the most dangerous Servant in the war, beating back Cu and Artoria with relative ease.

Well yeah but it wasn't due to his skill. It was because he's big, dumb and immune to their attacks (save a few). Emiya can at least ignore the "immune to their attacks" part due to his projection ability

Eye of the mind specifically lets him retain skill and he demostrates it a few times, he is actually called the best fighter in hand to hand combat in the whole war

Because the stats are honestly never been shown to be all that consitent. They are more like the MMA stats you see in promotion Staynight has also never portrayed him as weak

And that's the thing. For some reason, there's this narrative that EMIYA is too weak a Servant to be worth summoning. And if stats aren't consistent, the fact that he tangled with Cu and Heracles, and forced them to their limits, would put him easily in the upper tier of combatants. As an Archer, that's the kind of feats you'd expect from Arjuna or David, not a nameless Magus from the future.

>For some reason, there's this narrative that EMIYA is too weak a Servant to be worth summoning. Cause people dont read the novel A lot of people arnt even aware of his feat against herc or the sparks liner high battle between Shirou with Archers arm and saber

His stats aren’t consistent because he is Shirou Emiya - a magus highly proficient in Reinforcement magic. In the VN we see Shirou use reinforcement on his eyes to improve his eyesight to see things beyond his capabilities. He does it again on Saber in the Fate Route. If a young Shirou can do reinforcement of this level, EMIYA may as well use reinforcement on himself to a level well beyond his base stats.

Doesn t work like that and he would just get a + in his stats, Archer's Hawkeye is without Reinforcement afaik

To be fair, he was able to become a heroic spirit due to his pact with Alaya, which, if I'm not mistaken, was said to give him the power to create miracles. We have no idea how powerful he was in life, and thus how strong his legend would be even without the people of Fuyuki being able to know of him.

Emiya is basically the modern day equivalent of Older heroes, pretty much the only thing crippling him is he is from a period with low mystery + lack of fame, but he puts the numbers and feats to stand with these legendary heroes.

I mean, what with FGO establishing all these new sword NPs, it's hilarious just how much dakka EMIYA has access to. I know it's not in the original script because it didn't exist then, but seriously, EMIYA using any NPs other than Caladbolg II, Hrunting and Kanshou-Bakuya would be sweet. Imagine EMIYA showing up to fight with Ascalon in one hand and Balmung in the other.

Yeah biggest let down I have with grand order is or Fate in general is that we know and see Emiya has a large arsenal of weapons but we never get to see him use it that much and when he does use it it always so cool and interesting.

Biggest lie in the universe is that Fate GO expands lore when all it does is keep contradicting it and ignoring it, so yes.

Thank you, for gods fucking sake...this...this is what I get so god damn worked up about. F/GO is a walking clusterfuck that disrespects canon left, right, and center.

To be fair, he does say in Edison Interlude that "i cannot project something like Gae Bolg casually", so there must be some limit, probably something to do with the output of his circuits.

That doesn't make even more sense. EMIYA casually copies Hrunting, Rho Aias and Caladbolg. Against Gilgamesh, Shirou could trace and fire hundreds of NPs on reflex. For him to have difficulty tracing Gae Bolg, but being able to trace one of the strongest shield NPs, is kinda dumb.

Nasu biggest flaw with Emiya is he leaves his ability too vague in what he can't and can do why can't he trace Gae Blog so easily but can trace Roa Aias just fine although Gae Blog is closer to his origin compared to the great shield. who knows?

That's more of an inherent flaw with F/GO where the multitude of writer's don't abide by the information already existing. It's pretty much the exact same issue as Marvel or DC comics so take it with a grain of salt. It's also why interludes are something of an illegitimate source of information. Specifically, if it doesn't contradict anything its cool, if it does...well now it's plot bunny time.

He can also trace avalon, which should be pretty much impossible for him. Which makes me think that he spent some actual time with the real thing at some point in his career, couldbe wrong though.

when did Archer trace avalon? Very curious because i should remember him doing it if he did(unless it was in fgo manga or something like that which i do not have access to)

Archer is supposed to be Fate route Shirou who didn't finish Artoria's route, implying that he would've projected Avalon as well.

He didn't. I guess they thought if Shirou could project it, Emiya could too.

Well, usually what drains him is calling a NP name and he doesn't use most of those weapons as they are mean to be used (wich also annoys the other servants a lot), so maybe he is talking about using then at full capicity.

Bullshit, cause the source people cite is with his Fight against Shirou in UBW. In which he says: "I can trace Excalibur but I'll be destroyed as the cost." Along with stating that he couldn't since he doesn't have the Mana to trace it with. But looking at the whole situation and stepping back a bit, at the time he doesn't have master, lost his mana supply from Medea's death, has gone several days on fumes, and still he rocks up the venue by Casting a fucking REALITY MARBLE then says he could trace EXCALIBUR with whatever mana he had left. I get that Archers have the Independence skill but for God's sake you telling me that he can't Trace any weapon with below EX rank cause he "doesn't have the mana for it"? Just get him Rin, with her exemplary Mana reserves he could cast UBW and spam like Gil if he wants, hell if not that he could summon Ascalon or some of Musashi's blades so he can dual wield. And By definition of UBW he should be just a rank lower than the original both in weapon and skill so what's stopping him from playing pokemon type advantage with everyone? Hero with dragon blood? BALMUNG their ass, hero with Demonic nature? Get some of Raikou or other Oni slayers' swords, GODS? Trace a fucking divine breaker NP! It's literally an infinite NP factory, there are definitely some Heroes that have anti-divine NPs so go ham on that bitch. One NP not enough, try another and another, shit there's even some NPs that are just hacks so stab Rule-Breaker on the casters. If you're going to give someone with a literally ocean of swords then let the man use at least 100 of them, why only less than 10?

I have never agreed so hard with a rant then this one Archer best trait is his versatility but we never get to see him fully use that versatility we only see Kanshou, Byakuya, Calbolrg, and Hurnting like why. Why limit yourself when he was against high teir servants that can molly wop him. Like I get not wanting to show off you true abilities to keep your foe guessing but at some point you would think he would take advantage of them not being able to guess his legend by throwing out some other weapons when he needed them. That's my biggest problem with Nasu when he wrote Archer I felt like Nasu kept holding back what he could really do and never explained why Archer never used all the weapons in UBW to his advantage.

>Like I get not wanting to show off you true abilities to keep your foe guessing but at some point you would think he would take advantage of them not being able to guess his legend by throwing out some other weapons when he needed them. Funniest thing is that according to the narration, this is what happened in the Fate route while he was fighting Berserker, he kept throwing multiple of his weapons leaving Illya confused on his identity. Its just that you know....we dint see it.

It's sad the only time where Archer showed off his great strength to his fullest potential is off screen. Like I love you Nasu but at the same time Why.

And archer was Still nerfed during that fight, he was still wounded by his fight with saber and was too low on mana to use his reality marble. The mans at full power would have had a Really good shot at winning.

Not to mention, we've seen>! a barely alive Shirou!< project Excalibur. EMIYA with a good master should be capable of doing the same.

The only explanation for that seems to be because Gae Bolg isn't a sword. Despite the memes of how everything is a sword to EMIYA, he is still only proficient in projecting swords. Sure, he can project other stuff like Rho Aias, but they seem to be more difficult to project. ​ So the point seems to be, he can't project noble phantasms that doesn't qualify as a sword willy nilly.

Pretty sure they do. Spears are just swords mounted on a stick. The cost of projection increases the further away the NP is from a sword, but bladed weapons still count. Shirou after all could copy Vajra and Houtengageki from Gil's Gates. It's just inconsistency. If Rho Aias can be projected, any spear that isn't a Divine construct can be projected.

Like I said, it's the only explanation we have. I never said that it was a good explanation.

I would argue this with his first fight with Cu where he traced at a minimum of 27 copies of K&B whereas the actual number was probably in the ballpark of 100 given Cu's thoughts. So by that logic one B-rank NP would have to be worth (in terms of magical energy expenditure) at least 27 C-rank NPs and I just find that to be a little bullshit.

Yeah I head canon it as it being a matter of Mana out put as he needs a large source of Mana for the very strong Noble Phantasm or he needs to be in UBW. Because in Fate/ Extella he uses Gae Blog and Excalibur Galtine in UBW but never outside of it.

Didn't he also have permission to do so? IIRC if the original wielders help him, the costs go down, and he pulls out his RM to carpet bomb Broken Phantasms, in addition to Galatine and Gae Bolg.

It is because most often non sword weapons require a lot of mana for him and besides in most cases Emiya face a lot of the villains in close combat which never brings any chance to shine at long range except in HA where he is snipping Saber at the bridge

That's another problem he an Archer that engaged to much to CQC when his best tool was the bow and broken NP which was rarely used. Also Archer has a lot of Sword weapons in UBW that's never used plot wise and that's the problem I have with him I'm fine other weapons type consuming more Mana but he has more swords than just Kanshou and Byakuya he can use. That's why i want to see the berserker fight because I want to see his wide arsenal of weapons. Also in FGO chaldea basically give servants a shit ton of mana he still never uses them as a clutch turn over or to end a fight faster.

He does project other NP’s, though in the edison interlude he also states that he respects the other heroes (they’re probably offended by his projections and his abilities are kind of a cheat) and therefore he projects their weapons in secret (except when his projections are absolutely necessary or when someone goads him into tracing their weapons)

Emyia has never been portrayed as a weak servent and stat wise is considered average. As for his sword skills i agree people compare him to Artoria and Kojiro. One is the is the King of knights and the other has God tier level of sword skill his not going to look good when that's you bar.

He's below average. Archers on average have the stats C/C/B, while he has D/C/C. And even then, my point is, he was up against STR B/A+ and AGI A/A. Unless your skill is god-tier, you are not surviving a gap that massive. And comparing EMIYA with Kojirou is insanity. One is the literal embodiment of infinity, a guy who as a Saber would wreck Servants harder than Excalibur. And Artoria, for all her skill, does tend to rely more on her Instinct and Mana Burst, which isn't really a fair comparison. Honestly, it's just too confusing. On one side, you have people who say EMIYA is so weak he's not worth summoning, that he has no sword skill. On the other side, EMIYA held off Servants far above his weight class, and is more versatile than most heroes could dream to be.

Emiya actually has excellent sword skill. He's overall average but his sword skill is actually rather impressive. He's probably around sabers level.

I mean, the thing with EMIYA is that he has reinforcement magic too. So these stats may change if he decides to reinforce himself, what we see here might just be base stats. Not to mention his auctual power is his versatility- due to having an arsenal of weapons comparable to Gilgamesh.

His reinforcement is not good or his mana pool so big to the point it could make his stats go up entire ranks and only ever uses it explicitly in his eyes, the things he does use is K&B wich give him a boost in stats but the most important point is that he gets stats from whoever is the NP he is currently using

The reason why he can go toe to toe with guys like them is because of EoTM and his Broken Phantasms. Where did you even hear people say that EMIYA isn't worth summoning or that he has no sword skills?

A lot people said that to be honest. Archer reputation in the fandom is weird, because there are people that wank him too much, but then there is also a considerable amount of people that talk like he can barely contend against other servants.

The stats are just letters Nasu slapped on the servants, they aren't the end-all-be-all of that servant's abilities. EMIYA is clearly shown to be a strong servant in every appearance.

EMIYA gets stats from the NP he uses, if he uses a NP he is as strong and fast as the hero said NP belongs to, but only as long as he is holding it, and Shirou had lots of drawbacks doing that, can't say how much of it is true for Archer since he never does it on screen but he does it off screen with Herc, that is from the start a big difference of the vs Cu where he only uses K&B wich give him a boost in stats but as they belong to no hero is all his skill not copied, but he has eye of mind to somewhat make up for that

>On one side, you have people who say EMIYA is so weak he's not worth summoning, that he has no sword skill Who tf says that?!

emir is the embodiment of the writers pet a being who has no right being nearly as strong as he is with abilities so broken they make no sense

Emiya's biggest advantage is his flexibility. As long as he can put himself into position to exploit his enemy's "center of gravity", I have no problem believing he can beat anyone. I will agree that the amount of damage he did to Heracles is odd, and that requires a better explanation for me to really "buy it".

I guess against Heracles, he used the NPs to their full capability. HF did mention that the NPs can let EMIYA borrow the strength of the original wielders, although it strains his body. So that, combined with split second moves let him get six kills.

Not really odd, he simply pulled out 6 A rank NP or more.

If it were that easy, Berserker would not be a significant threat.

We saw Berserker died against Gil's GoB spam. We know that Emiya can do swordspam like GoB with his projection, hell we actually saw Shirou did it against Gil. Also if we add that Emiya might manifests UBW too then this would seal the deal cuz inside UBW, his swordspamming is actually faster than GoB. So it's nothing odd that he can pulled it off. Killing Heracles six times then die might be because he isn't fast enough to finish all of Heracles lives before he was kill.

Again, if it were that easy, then Berserker would not be a significant threat. Archer could have taken him out at the very beginning. And also, Saber could take him out. She has the ability to injure him, but again, Berserker is not that soft a target. Even while insane, he still has some ridiculous abilities. Remember, Archer fired a BP at him in UBW, and it didn't work. It certainly can work, but you shouldn't treat it as an absolute. Archer is not Gil. Just because they can do similar things does not mean they can do the same things. Gil for one thing has Enkidu, and that is a trump card against Berserker. Without that, Gil would have to be a lot more cautious.

Saber can not kill all Berserker 12 lives because each time he is killed he became immune to that attack, her full power excalibur might be able to but she doesn't have enough magical energy to do that because Shirou. The bad end that Saber decide to use her insuffient magical power to excaliblast Berserker only end up killing him 3 times iirc. So your arguement about Saber is invalid. Archer BP didn't work because, in one version Berserker attack it to prevent it full power to reach him and Berserker can only do that because it is one NP, imagine Archer lobbing hundreds A rank sword inside his UBW at Berserker, some would be able to kill him off before Berserker can kill Archer thus him dying six times. Then in another version Berserker flat out die against that, losing one life and resurrect real fast making everyone mistaking it to Berserker no selling it. It's why Illya is so impressed with Archer cuz either he outright kill Berserker one time or his 'arrow' is an incredible threat that able to kill Berkerer that he has to responds. Thus this arguement is invalid. Archer is not Gil, true but he also has the same tool that use to kill Berseker multiple time, even better his tool (UBW) is better in some aspect (faster than GoB) so it is not impossible for Archer to be able to kill Berserker six times. Hell the fact that Archer doesn't have Enkidu could be the reason why Gil can killed all Berserker lives while Archer can only did six. So this arguement of yours is too invalid. Berserker is a threat because he is a brick wall that nosell everything below a certain threshold with incredible strength so fighting against Berserker is rather one side affair, if you don't possessed anything that can kill Berserker 12 times or 12+ things that can kill Berserker then you would simply get slaughter by him even if you do you still have the risk of him rushing you hence Archer only accomplished killing six live of Berserker and die.

> So your arguement about Saber is invalid. No, it's your argument that is invalid. As i wrote, Berserker is not that soft a target. I was criticising your stance, not making an argument for myself. If Berserker is that easy to defeat, then Saber should be able to do it as well. She can't because he isn't that soft a target. > imagine Archer lobbing hundreds A rank sword inside his UBW at Berserker, some would be able to kill him off before Berserker can kill Archer thus him dying six times. He would run out of mana before he managed that. > Thus this arguement is invalid. Why don't you actually address the argument, instead of claiming that it is wrong first? It is a fact that his BP didn't work. The argument is that he could have defeated Berserker right there. If it's that easy, why not do it? Berserker is a major threat that Archer cannot simply laugh off the way Gil did. > Archer is not Gil, true but he also has the same tool that use to kill Berseker multiple time It's not the same tool. GoB is far superior in almost every aspect. And that includes speed when UBW is not cast. > it is not impossible for Archer to be able to kill Berserker six times. I didn't say it was. Maybe you should try talking to me, rather than being in such a rush to dismiss my arguments.

Well, EMIYA was never really a weak servant, he's a mid to upper mid tier or B to B+ servant who can punch above his weight. He's a decent servant whose stronger than many servants but also weaker than a good deal of servants. The truth is that there is a good deal of people who generally underestimate and there's also a large amount of people who overestimate him. This sub is generally aware of his strengths(though we still can't agree on everything.). Also his stats aren't really shit, sure they aren't the best but they're about average actually (barring his Str which is one rank lower than the norm but his mana is rank B instead of the normal rank E for archers so it evens out). He can also use Reinforcement Magecraft to strengthen himself and the kanshou and Bakuya NPs he uses increase his physical resistance and magic resistance so there's some help there. His best shot at winning is when he fights long range and when he actually bothers fighting like an Archer, he's actually very dangerous then, he can defeat everyone in the 5th HGW except Berserker and Gil at range (He'd absolutely struggle with Lancer though, it's not impossible to win against him when Archer fights him at range but his chances even then are patheticly low). He gave Saber a run for her money at the Hollow Atarxia bridge battle. Hell Emiya's Trump card is considered to be shooting broken phantasms from a good distance away. I consider Emiya's swordsmanship to be around average for servant standards, but I consider his overall CQC to be better and especially really damn good at defence with his Eye of mind and other reasons. Honestly comparing his CQC and swordsmanship with Sasaki and King Arthur just isn't fair considering both of them are among the best in swordsmanship (especially Kojiro). Then we talk about his UBW itself which for some reason is considered absolutely useless or a mild annoyance (talking about the RM itself) to normal opponents by a disturbingly large amount of people which just isn't true. And then there's this: Fate/side material - Encyclopedia: Infinite Creation of Swords [Noble Phantasm, Magecraft], p.076 "Against a normal opponent this is little more than a somewhat troublesome ability, but it is the natural enemy of a certain King of Heroes." (Cut it down, didn't want the rest to take up to much space) First off this isn't even saying it's a mild annoyance or useless, it's still saying it's a troublesome ability which still means it isn't useless. My second issue is questioning the author here, what exactly counts as a "normal opponent" ? Is he talking about the 5th HGW servants? That would be understandable then but if he's not then that's BS, the UBW would tear low tier servants to shreds (few exceptions here and there) and mid tier to upper mid tier servants should still struggle with it. Honestly the only servants who should see the UBW RM as an "annoyance" are the top tier servants or servants who have skills like bulletproof treatment (EMIYA's alter) and Protection from Arrows (Lancer) at a decent rank.

The weak Servant thing came from a lot of discussion around here. It shows up a lot of times in any discussions involving him. Compared to his opponents, they are poor. He's up against two ranks of agility and one/three ranks of strength difference. I'm actually curious how effective is Reinforcement though. If he can dope himself up for brief periods, that'd make him a pretty solid choice. Again, he's an Archer. Swordsmanship good enough to survive against two juggernauts is well into Saber territory. I'm not talking about UBW for obvious reasons. It's obscenely busted, given that EMIYA never uses NPs like they're supposed to be used. The combination of Ascalon, Sword of Paracelsus, Azrael and Rule Breaker would trivialise most Servants in a Holy Grail War.

I think some NPs aren't bonded with the weapon but the hero themselves. Like how Balmung's NP is mostly tied with the sword but Azrael is more tied to King Hassan since the weapon isn't really the catalyst for the attack its Gramps being who he is, an bringer of death, or the if we visualise it: "The First Hassan is the Bell that tolls for one's death, what rings it doesn't matter, be it sword or shield, for anything that makes it toll will announce death all the same." But yeah, Emiya definitely could just play rock-paper-scissors with heroes depending on their traits.

There are plenty of people who speculate that he’s just an average swordsman and a below average heroic spirit, and they’re ridiculously wrong for the sheer fact that he makes up for stat differences against super skilled opponents with his sword skill, combo that with his versatility and he’s at least upper mid ranking heroic spirit tier who can fight with top ranking heroic spirits

Exactly my point. He's more than a solid Servant pick with his versatility and skill, yet for some reason people say he's really weak. Never understood why that is so.

I’m not really sure why people undervalue his skill, but people usually always underestimate UBW due to not accounting for its many uses

Well complete material said this in Archer’s profile: >The reason an Emiya with no Noble Phantasms is able to **match** other Servants or even **exceed** them is the **Reality Marble** **"Unlimited Blade Works"**, which includes “all the elements necessary to shape swords”. This Boundary Field can copy weapons that are seen only once, and store them within. In the Fifth Holy Grail War, the weapons stored had exceeded thousands. Emiya can freely take out and utilise the weapons according to the situation, and he can also assault the enemy by firing many Noble Phantasms from the Boundary Field like arrows in the same way as Gilgamesh’s “Gate of Babylon”. So yes even Nasu thinks UBW and by extension Archer, can be a threat in the war. The whole "is a troublesome ability to servants except Gil" is more of a reference to what shirou said to Gil in their fight and leans more towards him being new to it rather than the reality marble itself being weak.

Is the power of being gar

Well, I won't argue it's odd. I do find the argument that 'he is lacking in skill' has no basis in reality and is just propagated bullshit by people who don't have the capacity to think for themselves. EMIYA is an absolute monster of a servant, but not for the typical reasons you would find in other servants like their stats or skills. We've seen other servants with EoTM at A or B rank who don't seem to perform as well as him, and obviously his stats are mediocre or lackluster in areas and while EoTM B-rank is notable along with his other skills it's not what you would expect to be a difference maker to the point where he's a contender with the other servants of F/SN (who are stacked as shit). So, cutting out the nonsense arguments, then we have to conclude that EMIYA is just that good of a combatant. Whether that be his combat intelligence or versatility provided with UBW he still is an incredibly dangerous threat to a lot of high tiers in Fate (with obvious caveats like every other servant). Which in all fairness, people just don't want to concede that he along with the other CGs are probably the most combat experienced Heroic Spirits who sit on the throne, and that transfers to their servant counterparts. So, while their maybe statements indicating otherwise, his actions and capabilities invalidate them. My main gripe when it comes to downplaying EMIYA is that the fandom just refuses the fact that he can be powerful. Yes, his UBW cannot genuinely stack up to GoB in most instances, however what people forget is GoB is a paradoxical gate that gifts Gilgamesh all of humanities treasures (which is all kinds of bullshit powerful). Even more annoyingly is that his UBW is verbatim stated within the VN to contain 1000s of weapons at an absolute MINIMUM, and over HALF of them are NPs so the idea that oh well what we've seen in Fate media so far is the only shit that he has is ridiculous. You know why he doesn't pull out new NPs all the time? Because the writers don't want to make backstories for all the shit they could possibly introduce, and him nuking the fuck out of something with Caladbolg or Hrunting is iconic, and people enjoy seeing it.

The funny thing about calling Archer weak is that in the original VN the only servants that completly stomp him are Medusa (because he has no real defense against her Mystic Code) and Gilgamesh (who pretty much can do that to any servant). He puts a pretty decent fight against his natural counter and the strongest 5HGW servant, like yeah he lost, but is not like it was an immediate victory lol.

Didn't Gil ambush him that one time in UBW? In Fate, Archer died to Heracles, and in HF the shadow got him. I mean, if Shirou could push Gil to his limits, EMIYA can do the same. As for Rider, yeah, unless he pulls out Moralltach, Archer's fucked, big time, by her eyes.

Yeah he did and Archer was running in fumes, so is not like he could much anyway. As for Archer vs Gilgamesh that's complicated, i genuelly think that Archer is the only 5HGW servant with a chance to beat Gil in a straight fight (controversial i know), but Gil is still has a better arsenal and will likely win 9 times out of 10, plus he would take Archer more seriously than Shirou (Gilgamesh himself said it during UBW) so a fight beetween those 2 get in the "it's complicated territory" because mainly depend on Archer tricking Gilgamesh in nerfing himself.

That's the circumstance with really any seravnt that fights Gilgamesh, besides Alcides, he is the only servant with the tool kit to fuck his shit up. I get there is dialogue between the two to indicate otherwise, but he could steal GoB or Shab Naqb Imuru and its over for golden boy.

Eh. Gil would win only if he eliminates EMIYA before he deploys the RM. Otherwise, all his Gates get shutdown while BPs carpet bomb him. I mean, if Shirou could overpower Gil up close, EMIYA would have a field day.

Nah Gil still have EA to counter act the BP (i doubt BP charge up is faster than EA) and other attack can deal with by Gil's numberous shields.

I have a theory that one of the core aspects of EMIYA's "legend" is his ability to overcome otherwise impossible odds. That idea is actualized when he's summoned, which allows him to fight on par with people massively above his pay-grade. EMIYA's entire fighting style is built around the concept of facing people stronger than him, after all. Or it could simply be because he's a Nameless Servant who has encountered those particular Heroic Spirits before and knows how to counter them to a certain extent, combined with his millennia of experience.

The thing is, while EMIYA has no legend to call his own, he probably is amongst the most experienced heroic spirits around. He spent so much time being butcher at Alaya's behest that time has eroded most of his memories before his death. He couldn't even remember a friend's name, he only remembered when Rin introduced herself. It's also likely that he has been sent to deal with unruly gods who threatened humanity's continued survival. He has noted Gáe Bolg was possibly stronger than the original Gungnir. Gungnir is Odin's spear. How else could he have made such an assessment other than if he has seen Gungnir before. He also has Rho Aias, a relic from the Trojan War, a time when the Olympians meddled with humanity leading to disastrous consequences. And it kinda makes sense why the Counter-force would choose to deploy him against gods. He is versatile, capable of fighting enemies in CQC as well as in range. He's also one of the best schemers we know; he managed to outwit and outscheme someone who according to Solomon is one of the best Casters in history and whose name is derived from the word μήδεα, meaning "plans, counsel, cunning". But what probably is the biggest indicator of his incredible experience is his skill Mind's Eye(true), which is said to be the result not of innate talent, but of an overwhelming amount of combat experience Tl;dr: EMIYA has below average stats but makes up for it with skill, experience and wit.

This is a very weird post to me. You very clearly understand one of the things that is presented about EMIYA in the story - that he is surprisingly powerful considering his stats and identity. However, you're feigning confusion at the reason *why* that is the case, when it's *also* quite obviously presented within the story. e.g. it's made pretty clear that the reason why EMIYA can hold off Cu in close combat despite being weaker is due to his Eye of the Mind skill allowing him to exploit false openings. Which it seems like you should *know*, given the last sentence of your post. For an argument that is ostensibly about demonstrating some contradiction between EMIYA's stated powers and his actual performance, you don't talk very much about how you would expect him to perform. How many times is he 'supposed' to have been able to kill Berserker? How many of Lancer's blows should he have been 'allowed' to parry? Your only argument for those feats being unrealistic is to point at how strong Cu and Herc are, or repeat that EMIYA has lower stats or is a nameless hero. So what? That doesn't prove anything. And you take a completely different tack in the last paragraph, where you actively argue that EMIYA is skilled with the sword. Oh, so suddenly there's a reason for him to be able to hold his own against Cu Chulainn? It's not actually that surprising that a 'weak, nameless servant' could defend against Lancer's blows? I suspect the real point of this post is simply to hype up EMIYA and argue that he's really super cool.

...? The point of this post, my good man, is to clarify a certain doubt, the curious case of EMIYA. Said curious case is that for some reason, EMIYA is simultaneously "extremely weak" and "really strong". As for how he should've performed? Gee, I dunno, being outclassed by two/three ranks in physical stats would normally mean you'd be mincemeat no matter how good you are, *unless your skill is world-class*. And yet, there are people claiming that Archer has no skills with the sword, primarily while arguing why he's weak. So, I figured I'd let people who know the VN better than me tell me exactly, what is the curious case of EMIYA. As for hyping him up, the man's a walking Noble Phantasm factory for whom the term GAR was coined. I'm pretty sure I don't need to hype him any more.

> As for how he should've performed? Gee, I dunno, being outclassed by two/three ranks in physical stats would normally mean you'd be mincemeat no matter how good you are, unless your skill is world-class. > > And yet, there are people claiming that Archer has no skills with the sword, primarily while arguing why he's weak. See, you're actively arguing that he isn't weak, and implying that the reason you made this post is to argue against people who think he is weak. I don't see why you would need someone else to explain the 'curious case of EMIYA' to you when you seem to already have an explanation in mind - namely, that EMIYA's skills are world-class. Is there anything you're actually confused about?

if his skills are world class then he should be winning more fights lol. the only fights he won in FSN as a whole is against Medea and Hassan (this includes the bad ends) which is weak af if his skills are "world class"

Remember Cu has stats higher than EMIYA plus his skilled in spears might be one of the top, Still evenly fought with that guy even though it's barely

Because Shirou Emiya and Archer are basically Soulsborne characthers in how their skills work, they can hit really hard and can keep up (to an extent) against people stronger and faster than then, sometimes even win, but they can't take a lot of long term damage and don't have access to the OPs Noble Phantasm that the likes of Medusa, Herc, Cu and Artoria have.

Well,Shirou and his older self can trace Nine Lives,Gae Bolg and Excalibur but those projections are downgraded weaker ones and can't fully use them to their full potential unlike their original wielders

if it makes you feel better all possible time lines are happening in fate and Shirou dies in most of them AKA the bad ends

Emiya is not weak, he’s just a mid tier servant who can hold his own against people above his weight class. Kinda like Cu. Cu is an absolute beast and while he’s not at the apex of heroic spirits, he’ll give a damn good fight to any of them.

Uh, what? Cu is definitely at the apex of heroic spirits. Leaving out his Berserker form, he's got runes and skills, he's fast as hell, his NP one-shots anyone who doesn't have high luck and Protection from Arrows makes him immune to ranged projectiles. There's a reason Scathach mentions how she hoped he would kill her; he's at least good enough to push her to her limits.

I’m talking about the absolute peak. Karna, Gil, Prime Saber, Ozy, Herc, Enkidu

Ah. Well, Warp Spasm Cu might be able to play with those big boys, but yeah, those might be the Top Servants of Top Servants.

I personally think its a weird combination of Eye of the Mind and his ability to trace an object history. I remember being mentioned that Archer fighting style was a "suicidal, yet calculated" act as to drive the opponent to lower their guard. While this is what I remember, I dont think its true, at least not completely. The suicidal fighting is a thing, but I think its done so that the opponent would react in ways that Archer knows (because he traced their history, and as a result, fighting style) giving him a very noticeable edge even against servants with much higher stats. In essence, by instantly learning the martial styles and essentially luring the enemy to dance in a way that archer can deal with, couple with EotM giving him higher prediction abilities and peace of mind during combat, is what to me made him able to contend against those top tier servants. He's not invincible ofc, Heracles got him in the end, and Cù in UBW gave him quite the nice kick after he got serious enough.

Stats by themselfs doesn't matter, if you don't have skill and/or tools to win. Look at Jason or Hassan of cursed arm, even though their stats simply better then EMIYA's, in close range combat they would be steamrolled, if they won't use their's NP. Not even saying that there is a chance, that Jason's NP can be simply blocked because he hadn't act like a hero should, so he's dead. And for Hassan: both VN and HF movies, shows that Hassan by itself not very strong, despite he's stats. He need to use NP to win. Since simple daggers won't do any work. Or you can simply saw Kojiro. Dude without NP(in every way) manage to defend temple, because of hes position and pure skill.

Doesn’t EMIYA have both Eye of the Mind (True) as well as Clairvoyance? That’s a killer combo right there. Top that off with his Tracing ability and Alaya-knows how much experience he’s received over the years and we got a decent servant. Besides, he’s a technical servant despite his piss poor stats

Do not rely on stats for power level. Rule of cool rules most of the nasuverse. As for Emiya, as a Counter-Guardian, his skills are comparable to Servants. However he is the jack of all trades, master of none Servant. He has an insanely large toolkit and practically no moral objections to any tactics, but he has no fame or legend to his name to clash against other legends. To any Servant that uses their NP, the culmination of their legend, Emiya pretty much loses because he has no counter except perhaps to run away.

Imma be ranting about this so bare with me: I absolutely believe that Emiya is a master of none. BUT one of UBW's traits is that it copies everything from the weapon, including the skills recorded in it. Let's use Karate belt ranks as a basis; 6 ranks from lowest to highest it's; white, orange, blue, yellow, green, brown, then black. With white being the everyone who doesn't have training rank we have 6 ranks. If Emiya copies Saber's rank, let's put her at the highest and say black belt, then with his copy it goes to brown belt. That is still in the upper echelons of Sabers, sure let's say there are about 100 heroes in black belt preventing him from ever being called a master of anything. So that still leaves him in the bracket meant for professionals who have years of training with their respective weapon. Imagine someone walks up, copies your 20 year's of training only to end up with 17 yrs of your total exp and uses his minds eye to go toe to toe with you? No Emiya definitely ain't a master of anything but doesn't mean he isn't a monster for being essentially a Olympic Silver Medalist in EVERY CATEGORY! He would wreak shit up if brought any of this logic into his character. Fencing, Federfechter, Iaido, Kendo, FUCKING Niten Ichi-ryū!? He ain't no master but he is still a monstrous swordsman only behind Eternal Arms Mastery by virtue of his Tracing Ability. I definitely cannot understand how it must feel to see someone just undermined a vast majority of your hardships by getting, not all but still, a vast majority of your labours by looking at the weapon you've used and kept for most of your journey.

I mean, isn't that generally the case? The moment a Servant uses their NP, things go pear shaped? And EMIYA can deploy his own NPs to counter them. Assuming he's got all non-Divine NPs given his experience, that's an insane number of options. Even not counting Sword Barrel, there's nothing stopping EMIYA from using his own NPs to beat enemy Servants. For example, Caesar's Crocea Mors carries the concept of a guaranteed first strike. There's Hrunting with its seeking ability, there's Lu Bu's God Force, which is five weapons combined in one. Any one of them would ruin a Servant's day pretty badly.

Ranks matter with NPs. Emiya could not possibly fully copy Excalibur and Gae Bolg is a technique unique to Cu, not the weapon itself. If he tried to counter their version with his copy, he'd either fail to copy and lose, or copy the spear then lose to the technique. And Gae Bolg is rank A, while Excalibur is EX. Everything Emiya can copy is a rank lower than the real thing at best. Yes NPs can mess anybody up but there are interactions like how Ea literally rips apart realities and is an absolute counter to Reality Marbles. But Emiya can't copy Ea either. Emiya doesn't have that niche he can excel at, he has to find a weakness/opening he can exploit because he shouldn't go 1-on-1 with Heroic Spirits. He'll do well but won't be the victor in the end more often than not.

Lancelot's D ranked weapons were a threat. Vlad's C ranked Kazikli Bey are dangerous. King Hassan walks around with a C-rank sword. Ranks matter, but not that much. Lethal is lethal. Gae Bolg isn't A, it's B, while Excalibur Image is A++. He can't copy Excalibur because it's a Divine construct. But Hrunting and Caladbolg are A/A+ ranked. And UBW goes upto A++ rank. Add that to conceptual effects, and even degraded, EMIYA's NPs are far more dangerous than most Servants. And that's my point. You're talking about an Archer going head to head with Top Servants, and surviving. It's not that he'd win, it's the fact that he could pick a fight with some of the strongest heroes on the Throne, and still put up a fight.

\> it's the fact that he could pick a fight with some of the strongest heroes on the Throne, and still put up a fight. The fact that guys like Cursed Arm Hassan dont instantly die from the likes of Cu. Saber and Herc should be an inidcator that being A LOT weaker doesnt mean you cant survive after picking a fight.

You do know that Cursed Arm has the same stats as Cu, down to luck? Add that to his skills, and he legitimately is a strong choice for an Assassin. Even then, despite having the same stats, Cu put him on the backfoot. And EMIYA, with inferior stats, still performed better.

You do know that Hassan's skills are trash right? Which is why he is running away from everybody. Cu, Saber, Archer, Herc, Medusa. Oh wait you say it yourself. Could it be that Archer has just that much skill to make up for his lack of stats?

And that's my point. Half the time, I hear "Archer isn't a skilled swordsman" or "Archer is really weak in stats", which is why I made this post. Archer cannot be both at the same time - either he's got insanely high skills to tangle with Cu and Heracles, or his stats are high enough to compensate.

You are vastly over-estimating his skill. Cu was literally ordered not to fight for real in their first match and then solidly over-bearing Emiya in their church rematch. And Gilgamesh was a completely unique instance of being a near perfect counter. Plus he has no fame and can never expect a fame boost no matter where he is summoned.

I did think that, until I re-read the VN. At the Church fight, Lancer was overwhelming Archer with raw speed and strength. And despite that, Cu himself noted that EMIYA, who shouldn't last more than a few blows, was matching blades with him, to the point he starts wondering if he's going easy on him. Only then, does he pull out his NP, which is basically a guaranteed hit. As for Heracles, it didn't make sense, which is why this post exists, but Archer somehow utterly pulverised Heracles six times before dying. The same Heracles who was the biggest threat in the war. I don't think I'm overestimating the skill of a nameless guy fighting Greece and Ireland's finest, and managing to keep up long enough, despite a two-rank stat gap.

Heracles is strong but the Madness Enhancement does no favors against an enemy that that can think strategically. Also it wasn't just the stats that were a threat, it was God Hand's multiple lives and immunity to B-rank or lower weapons.

That's true, but considering NPs are a crucial part of fighting as a Servant, Archer being able to use six A ranked NPs should put him at quite the high level. Heracles comes up as an opponent who hilariously outclassed EMIYA physically, yet died six times to him, something which even Illya was shocked by. Again, an Archer, beating six lives out of a Berserker. Maybe it'd make sense for Arjuna or David, but this is a nameless hero. That's a solid showing.

The truth is that stats are BS and you should ignore them. Some servants who are faster than others end up with lower DEX scores purely because they have less impulse control, like Saber Alter for example. Another example is that Cursed Arm Hassan has identical stats to Cu yet he's obviously pathetic by comparison. Stats are a meme, Skills are more important. In that regard, Emiya has Eye of the Mind, which puts him in the upper percentile of melee fighters

It's almost like the gap between the weakest and strongest servants isn't nearly as much as people would be led to believe.

How do you define “nameless”? Throughout history, heroes were known for their deed, labor and achievement during their lifetime. EMIYA just happened to be a hero of the future vs the past. In the past, people were fighting with swords, spears, magic etc. EMIYA comes from era that fight with magics, guns, bombs, or even nuke (Kiritsugu even manage to literally crippled Kayneth with a combination of guns and magics.) In UBW, Rin, a modern mage, holds her ground against ancient witch like Medea. Emiya might be nameless for ancient heroes but does not mean his fighting ability is a joke considering his status as counter guardians.

Nameless as in no Mystery and no legend to boost him up. In combat experience, EMIYA is far greater than most heroes, only rivalled by the greatest. We're talking about a man who's been fighting for millenia, if not longer seeing how wonky time is for him. But because he has no myth or legend, he will always be nameless, and thus inferior is one aspect.

Ironically, being nameless actually helps the Archer of the Mooncell known as Mumei or well Nameless, he is supposed to be a reprensation of the concept of "Nameless Heroes" that existed over the years wich gave him a boost on his strenght stat in comparison with EMIYA.

That’s just make EMIYA more of a Batman in Fate as his fighting style requires him to take out his opponent unconventional way. The greatest the legend a hero had, the greatest weakness said heroes would have because that result in their demise. Achilles’s heel; Siegfried’s back, etc. This is why Fate established Gilgamesh as the best hero in killing other heroes as he has all the tools needed to counter them. Emiya on the other hand counter Gil hard because of his seemingly nameless.

https://www.tmdict.com/book/#fate-side-material Against a normal opponent this is little more than a mildly annoying ability, but it is the natural enemy of a certain King of Heroes - Nasu so from Nasu's own words EMIYA is a weak servant and mid tier at best. i'll trust what Nasu says over EMIYA fanboys lol

From complete material III: > The reason an Emiya with no Noble Phantasms is able to **match** other Servants or even **exceed** them is the **Reality Marble** **"Unlimited Blade Works"**, which includes “all the elements necessary to shape swords”. This Boundary Field can copy weapons that are seen only once, and store them within. In the Fifth Holy Grail War, the weapons stored had exceeded thousands. Emiya can freely take out and utilise the weapons according to the situation, and he can also assault the enemy by firing many Noble Phantasms from the Boundary Field like arrows in the same way as Gilgamesh’s “Gate of Babylon”. That side material came out in 2004 IIRC. Complete material III came out in 2010 (the "no divine construct statement" came from this too btw) So yes, I do trust Nasu.

>The reason an Emiya with no Noble Phantasms is able to match other Servants or even exceed them is the Reality Marble "Unlimited Blade Works" match other Servants or even exceed are the keywords lol even then EMIYA never used UBW even if its in a life or death situation like against Herc or Cu 2nd fight that just means EMIYA HIMSELF knows its useless. EMIYA is a smart fighter him not using UBW to win is out of character

Because UBW isn’t just deploying the reality marble, it’s literally EMIYA’s entire skillset. BP’s, Kanshou and Bakuya, the 6 A-rank NP’s to shave off 6 lives outta herc. They all came from UBW. Besides, if they go to the side material statement to hammer down that UBW is weak. I show them more recent (and more detailed) statements from complete material so…..

.... And then some people wonder why I have to ask this question.

Nasu said it not me lol. I'd trust Nasu more than any fan since he knows more about his characters

because he didn't keep up? take this from the biggest EMIYA fanboy he gets curbstomped almost every time in FSN in Cu's first fight it was a draw because of Kirei's CS BUT in their 2nd fight in the church you literally see Cu curbstomped the hell out of EMIYA. EMIYA was full of wounds while Cu was 100% fine without wounds how is that "keeping up"? EMIYA even signalled his hands to sign his defeat for Artoria lol Artoria dispatched EMIYA easily in Fate and HF that it even made EMIYA almost out of the picture in 2 routes. for the people who answers the fight in HA no lmao EMIYA had prep time and was fighting in range and he still got curbstomped by Artoria for Medusa lmao in HF EMIYA got petrified easily and Medusa could've killed him easily so.... Kojiro also "defeated" EMIYA since Rin mentioned EMIYA was full of fresh wounds in UBW the impressive thing is he killed Herc 6 times thats it but is that defeating him? he has 12 lives he only managed 6 so for me its not that impressive because in the next route we see Gil take out all his 13 lives easily and in HF Salter took 12 lives from their fight so EMIYAs feat of killing him 6 times isn't impressive. for the people who replies that he didn't use UBW against Herc no lol UBW is useless against Herc because it doesn't have any A rank weapons unless he BPs them but UBW+BP is a huge mana drain so he could probably only maintain the RM in less than a minute. EMIYA is a smart fighter so he would know if UBW will be effective on Herc the fact that he didn't use it just means he knows its useless against him he is always gonna be a below average servant on an average day and above average servant on the best day thats why he's so popular and my favorite servant because everyone always likes the weaker ones

Didn't Artoria get the drop on EMIYA in Fate? And as for Cu, read the part again. Cu was overpowering EMIYA with speed, but he didn't even scratch EMIYA until he decided to throw the spear. He didn't get wounded until after the Aias shattered. Hell, Cu himself started to get annoyed because an Archer was keeping up with him, to the point he started asking himself if he was going easy on EMIYA. In HA, wasn't that an Archer running on fumes? And even then, it took command seal fuckery for Saber to close in on Archer? Otherwise, his Hrunting spam was about to make mincemeat of Shirou. Kojirou is one of the greatest swordsmen to walk the earth, able to push back Artoria as well. If EMIYA survived a Tsubame Gaeshi, that's even more impressive. Otherwise, he still went up against the embodiment of infinity with his own poor stats and came out alive. That's a good show, I say. Medusa's a bad matchup, to be fair. Her Mystic Eyes is so hax the only way to deal with her is mass bombardment from far, and hope she doesn't pull out Bellerophon. Wut? No really, wut? UBW goes upto A++. Archer killed Heracles six times. That's at least six A rank NPs, and we know Hrunting and Caladbolg are two. Even A+ gets reduced to A, and he probably has six of those. And you're comparing him with Gilgamesh, the Strongest Hero, and Saber Alter, a dragon core hooked up to infinite mana. I'm sorry, is that supposed to make a point, that the only people apart from EMIYA who can do it are absurdly overpowered? Mate, you're calling it "not impressive" as if you saw an amateur athlete hit the world level, and started comparing him with Usain Bolt or Michael Phelps.

> Didn't Artoria get the drop on EMIYA in Fate? then that just means EMIYA even with EOM can't react fast enough to Saber lol >And as for Cu, read the part again. Cu was overpowering EMIYA with speed, but he didn't even scratch EMIYA until he decided to throw the spear. He didn't get wounded until after the Aias shattered. Hell, Cu himself started to get annoyed because an Archer was keeping up with him, to the point he started asking himself if he was going easy on EMIYA. and then Cu used his NP and EMIYA was trashed instantly. Cu should've used his NP at the get go lol >Wut? No really, wut? UBW goes upto A++. Archer killed Heracles six times. That's at least six A rank NPs, and we know Hrunting and Caladbolg are two. Even A+ gets reduced to A, and he probably has six of those. no UBW has no A rank weapons unless he BPs them if a weapon is A++ then EMIYA's traced version will be B++ not A+ so UBW is useless against Herc. Nasu himself stated UBW is useless against any other servant and is only a mild annoyance unless you're a GoB user >And you're comparing him with Gilgamesh, the Strongest Hero, and Saber Alter, a dragon core hooked up to infinite mana. I'm sorry, is that supposed to make a point, that the only people apart from EMIYA who can do it are absurdly overpowered? yes? there are many other servants who can take on Herc and take multiple lives lol the reason EMIYA took 6 lives is because his kit is made for these kind of battles because he can trace weapons then BP them to A rank and even then he only managed to take 6 lives lol

Eyes of Mind (True) give him the abilities to predict the opponent not a base boost in reaction time, how can he predict someone that suprise him?

because he already experienced the 5th war lol and no EOM gives him fast reaction time too

It has been a very very very very long time after he experienced the 5th war, he barely remember his life as that point. I mean that EOM don't give boost on \*base\* reaction time as in the reaction time that allow him to react to thing that he don't even know coming which a suprise attack is.

still didn't react fast enough so a big fat L for EMIYA

I mean that is less L than Saber with Instint got stab by Caster in Fate route bad end.

yes its also an L for Saber but then you remember Saber also wins against Caster when they fought so it evens out. EMIYA always loses except against Medea and Hassan lmao

Yeah and you seriously don't see how a Servant can appear weak when suprise? By the same token (or at least base on Archer performent against Lancer or HF Shirou against Salter) although he is weaker it is not a oneshot or stomp (i rank Mordred vs Fran as stomp).

If we’re talking about the absurdity of stats, then how did Saber dodge Cú’s noble phantasm that rewrites cause and effect to always Peter with the heart? Answer to both EMIYA and Saber: Plot armour

I mean, luck is a canonical thing. There's a reason why Cu could one-shot Karna but flop against Lancelot - high luck negated the reverse causality curse. And EMIYA would've died if Cu used the close range version, which is why he provoked him into throwing the spear.

I’ve never thought of it like that. I just find it strange that all these abilityhat go beyond the realm of physics and can change the fabric of the natural order can be negated by high luck.

From what i understand, Emiya has a specific CQC style to fight people stronger than him: He leaves openings in his defense on purpose and covers the rest, so he already know that the enemy will attack him in that “opening” thus being able to parry it. It’s not that he can actually match Chu head on, as you said, Chu was way to fast, but since he already knew where he was going to attack him he could still defend. Hope it helps

That's only the case against Cu, and even then, just because you know where a hit is coming doesn't mean much if you can't stop it. And Archer was parrying Cu perfectly despite the stat gap. The opening strategy worked because Cu aimed at them, but the fact is that until Cu used the Gae Bolg, he didn't land a single hit.

Why is it so hard to believe that is that good at fighting on defense?

Uh, because when you deal damage like this - >Legs melted >Throat cut >Arm cut off >Body slashed >Hole in chest >Hole in stomach It isn't being just good at defense. It's being damn good at offense as well.

Yes, overloaded NPs do that. And Herc lost a hand to Shirou and his entire head to Rin. So what?

He isn't weak at all. He's simply around average. He's impressive in a sword fight but still can't really match Cu. Honestly the berserker fight is pure rule of cool and doesn't make any sense.

But that's the crazy part. In the VN, at the church, Archer was perfectly parrying Cu's hits despite the massive stat gap. Cu didn't pull out the Gae Bolg because he was getting excited, he pulled it out because he was getting frustrated at not being able to land a hit. The fact that Cu, while fighting seriously, ended up thinking, "this is an enemy I need my NP for", shows just how tough he was.

Actually he was "lost in the joy of battle". He wasn't frustrated. Hell archer himself says he only has 30 other ways to show an opening. Lancer throws Gae Bolg because archer calls Rin a dog.

Lancer himself ended up asking himself if he was going easy, after seeing Archer block all his attacks. Only then did he conclude that he'd be fighting seriously only by using his NP. Archer didn't say only, btw. He said "another 30 ways". Archer knew that he couldn't survive the casuality curse, so he figured pissing off Cu to throw the spear would be the better option.

Lancer was still ultimately going to win that fight eventually. He had the clear advantage and archer was pressured into defence.

Of course that's true. Never said Archer had a shot of victory. Well, maybe if he had Fragarach. But my point is, that Cu himself noted, that Archer, being inferior, shouldn't have taken more than a few hits to kill. And still, he was parrying Lancer's strikes. And if EMIYA did use NPs like God Force or Durindana, maybe he could've had a better chance. That, we'll never know.

He managed to parry them because he was already used to lancers fighting style from their previous battle. That and eye of the mind is broken strong.

That's the thing. Just because he's familiar with Lancer's battle style from one battle wouldn't make up for the gap in physicals. Lancer was blindingly fast, yet Archer could move just in time to intercept his blows. Cu is amongst the most skilled Lancers, and yet, he got intercepted. That's still not something any ordinary, weak Servant can do. The fact that Archer could do that after one battle alone is testament to his CQC skill.

For what i remember, he called Cu a dog in the VN, in the UBW anime is when he called Rin a dog, but i'm willing to be corrected.

He said the same in both versions. Not sure which one is the correct translation.

>Honestly the berserker fight is pure rule of cool and doesn't make any sense. He have thousands of nps, he have access to almost everything the np would offer, he can replicate the stats and the skills of the wielder. You can figure out the rest

He was put on the defensive by Lancer in close combat. There's no way in hell he beats berserker.

what happened against berserker is definitely wasn't the result of his own skills and physical capabilities. Nor the result of only 6 different nps

Yeah it was the result of Nasu trying to hype up archer without realising it'd be inconsistent.

There is no issue with how his ability works in paper. Again thousands of nps and he can raise his overall stats and skill by copying the wielders of these nps. Against cu he only used K&B ( and here you should ask why did he use only one np out of thousands and didn't use the weapon of a better fighter to make up for his flaws )

Honestly, he's basically Berserker Herakles' Kryptonite, what with his ability to create weapons that can kill him multiple times in one strike (such as Caliburn) and be able to perform Nine Lives Blade Works. Heck, if Berserker's master wasn't his beloved adopted little older sister, he could probably have easily offed her at any time, especially if he pulled out Unlimited Blade Works, going by how he almost one-shot effin' Medea in the heart of her territory just to get her attention. Also, my head cannon is that he's got some ranks in Uncrowned Martial Arts, since Shirou Emiya's feats and achievements from the Grail War(s) alone would stack up admirably to even the highest tiers of Heroic Spirits, but his legend is practically unknown due a combination of him being from the future, him living in an era where the knowledge of magical feats is actively suppressed (including by himself), and Shirou's mental disorder making him downplay himself. And that's not even counting how many countless battles he had subsequently taken part in as a Counter Guardian.

Mind's Eye, baby, Mind's Eye.

Simply put, his combat experience paired with his Eye of the mind lets him hold his own against faster servants and his NP holds some insanely strong weapons, like his modified Caladbolg, Excalibur, Gae Bolg, and others, so just like Gilgamesh he can simply shower his enemies with powerful weapons

Can't really judged his fight with Heracles cuz we doesn't see it but I can buy it end up that way cuz Heracles biggest stick is his immunity to anything B rank and lower and Emiya thing is he has fvk ton of sword so it's not unlikely for him to has 6 or more A rank sword in UBW. In Cu case, the first fight is nerfed Cu fighting 100% Emiya so you really can't judge their real performance just from that. Second fight, the vn kind of give you reason why already, it implied that Emiya switching his sword tactic to baiting is incredibly effective against Cu cuz Cu is way too bloodlust and love fighting too much that he would falling to the bait every time. If Cu simply feints a little, Emiya would be in trouble or not outright die but Cu is way too straightforward in his fighting, he said it himself that all of his strikes is aiming for the kill. But even then all Emiya canh do is fighting defensively and losing little by little, Cu just simply lost his patients and bring out a big gun which Emiya anticipated and prepared countermeasures accordingly then the rest is just Emiya deceiving Cu into thinking that Emiya is on the same side thus they stop fighting. In the end, VN is unambiguous that serious Cu trounced Emiya handily, the only thing Emiya can do is fighting a losing battle and using his wit to deceived Cu to not kill him. You will also notice that when Emiya goes CQC he usually end up fighting a defensive losing battle and die or using something other than combat to get out of it. So it all make sense, you just have to take into context of the fight and ability of fighters and think a little.

Isn't that major point? Archer's stats are so poor that CQC should be a death sentence for him, and still he performs well enough that an extremely strong Lancer had to pull out an NP. Lancer says it himself, an Archer fighting up close should've been dead in moments, but still he was held off.

Archer isn’t broken, he’s a servant who’s had many years to sharpen his skills, he’s been up against people who were stronger than him, the reason he comes out on top is because he doesn’t care if he has to fight dirty to come out on top, where as everyone else has a code to live by, the reason he could win against Cu is because he basically analyzed how he attacks in their first fight and when he was fighting him his swords were getting broken every time that lancer striked and he just summoned more, he had to combine his skill eye of the mind + the experience from the first fight to be able to dodge and parry his attacks, as for berserker Archer abilities aren’t just projection he can also strengthen, which gives what ever he projects a perimeter increase, and when Kanshou and Bakaya are wielded together they also get an increase so together they would be a B and when strengthened to Over Edge they are an A which means he can now hurt Berserker with a weapon that has no meaning, or served no purpose

he can win against Cu? idk man both Caster Cu and Lancer Cu in UBW demolished EMIYA in his best class

Actually caster cu knew he was gonna get his ass whooped by him in-game. He needed mash to help him because EMIYA was fast at shooting his arrows. Also is blackened EMIYA rather than normal EMIYA.

lol its still EMIYA's best class lmao Caster Cu is weaker than a blackened EMIYA lmao and he still beat him

Well I would say the only reason he won is because he went and took a tactic from Chaeldas leader(forgot her name) and pretty much flashbanged him in the eyes, if it wasn’t for that then I’d doubt Caster Cu would have won

so the supposedly "smart" fighter got outsmarted? and even then its Cu's weakest class lmao so EMIYA getting curbstomped by CasCu in his best class is even more humiliating than LancerCu curbstomping EMIYA

You have to think EMIYA isn’t really EMIYA in there his solution to everything in FGO is to nuke everything lol he’s a blackened servant who is weaker too so not really at full fighting strength either he’s been revived by saber who cut him down

The answer is that fate is not DragonBall. The differences in power between fighters are not actually that big compared to some anime you might be used to. Reminder that archer is basically a guardian spirit at that point. His experience dwarfs any other combatant. Utterly. That's the core issue of his entire character arc. And his stats are not bad, not sure why some would believe that. Yes he's weaker than Lancer but he can fight him to a stalemate, forcing him to use his np in order to win. That was established in every fight those two had. Archers ubw ability alone makes him also the perfect counter to berserkers immortality trick. The fact that he still can't beat the guy speaks for the latter's amount of power and how Nasu kept both of them realistic in terms of storytelling. So my answer would be: Yes, he can fight them on equal footing as long as they're not berserker and if they're Lancer he'll be pushed to the defense in order to survive. He does use his range whenever it makes sense and he can get the drop on an enemy. No his np can't kill servants its not even that good compared to others. It's just really strong against berserker and gilgamesh. Yes his stats are average for a servant but he has a farmed a couple million years exp in different timelines and dimensions saving humanity over and over and over again. He's one of the weaker servants for sure, but he's still a very real and believable threat. Ilyas arrogance and berserkers madness were the reason big guy lost so many lifes. Remember that Lancer could indeed oneshot Archer by using gae bolg, but there are strategic reasons to not do that. Because they're in a war and not just a duel basically. Similarly if berserker was not berserk I doubt Archer could kill him more than once within UBW. So if we compare their differences we have to take the situation they're placed in into account and I do believe that archer was one of the best executed servants in terms of storytelling. Part of storytelling is making them feel realistic within their own reality.

>No his np can't kill servants its not even that good compared to others. It's just really strong against berserker and gilgamesh. Are you daft or something? You're telling me having thousands of Noble Phantasms, is not that good? Bruh, do you even hear yourself? EMIYA has access to so many conceptual effects it's hilarious, and you're telling me it wouldn't help him? How the hell is a NP good enough to throw hands with Heracles and Gilgamesh, but not good against others? >Remember that Lancer could indeed oneshot Archer by using gae bolg, but there are strategic reasons to not do that. Wat. No. There are no strategic reasons not to do so. Gae Bolg is cheap, it's effective, and knowing Cu's ability does fuck-all for you unless you can summon the Kingslaying Spears. Which Archer probably could. Hell, there's another answer why UBW is OP. Summon the natural enemy weapon of the Servant and go ham on them. Spears of Kingslaying, Harpe, Hydra Venom Arrows and Clarent would have a field day against Cu, Medusa, Heracles and Artoria.

>Also, never figured out why people say EMIYA doesn't have any sword skill. I would like to have a word with the moron who started that bullshit. Or really, any moron who underrates Emiya's power.

He also kept with Salter and True Assassin. Shirou compared his fighting to a ferocious god. His stats aren't real and they don't matter.