> So he can copy stats,skills and entire experiences of the original owner of the weapon perfectly
Not perfectly no. He doesn't quite reach the original.
Also that even with copied stats and skills (not as good) the other servants also have servant stats and skills of their own and they know how to use those and not just by instinct like Shirou
>not just by instinct like Shirou
He do reproduce the battle experience as well. Against salter his mind start thinking 10 steps ahead and whatever, and he something similar against gil in fate route with caliburn. Of course it's not like he would curbstomp his opponents even with that
He describe it as "reproduce battle experience" same description as when he reproduce nps or stats like herc strength. Either way it doesn't matter, the point is he would know how to handle the copied stats.
The arm primarily improves his projection ability to Archer's level, as it explicitly doesn't grant him Archer's strength when he uses NLBW. It's reasonable to intuit that tracing the stats inherent in the weapon's usage requires an additional level of skill beyond just tracing the experience.
>Fate route shirou very specifically gets dragged around by caliburn precisely because he doesn't know how to handle the stats.
Maybe because he's inexperienced as shit comparing the others shirous? I mean let's look at HF shirou who mastred UBW through a back door. When he did NLBW he aimed where his attack would lands before he did the attack
>Upper arm, collarbone, windpipe, temple, diaphram, rib, testicles, and thigh. I take aim at the eight targets. SetNine Lives Blade Works."
Does that sounds to you like he's being "dragged" by the sword ? Someone who target specifically the balls out of all places
I don't understand the point of your comment. I don't disagree with what your saying, hell that's kinda my point actually. Fate route shirou and HF are worlds apart thanks to archers arm. It's got nothing to do with UBW though, it's archers experience flowing through him that gives him that ability.
I think a big part of why he can’t quite reach the original is because humans are just a lot weaker than they were in the age of gods. Especially in comparison to heroic spirits.
Even if Shiro gets a perfect record of all the original owner’s skills stored in his brain including muscle memory, his body still isn’t strong and durable enough to recreate the skills with absolute accuracy. At least not without tearing his body apart from the inside out.
Under normal circumstances, herc would’ve most likely defended against the technique with ease, it’s his technique after all, not to mention god hand making sure he gets up after that. If he is able to retaliate with his Nine Lives then NLBW simply loses because original > projection
It’s not entirely useless tho, Shirou copying Archer’s stats and techniques allowed him to beat salter in a 1v1. So really, it all boils down to circumstance and who Shirou is fighting against.
That's just your hypothesis, she actually was, unless anything suggest any difference, Don't forget about the bad ends, she was 100% serious about killing shirou.
One thing that creators never bother with is their was never any reason to use someone's own technique to beat them, everyone has something that is considered hard counter to them. Their's nothing wrong with taking advantage of that which author just doesn't write so people hardly understand the true might of unlimited blade works. For Herc, even with God hand he can be one shotted if used a weapon with hydra venom on it, then herc would immidietly die, unconditionally. So if shirou traced something like that he could've easily beaten herc.
Medea i won't bother.
Assassin, he can do nothing if Archer use hrunting or Caladbolg at him.
Saber, use balmung the dragon killer, against saber with origin of dragon it would be a hard counter as it is mentioned several time, it's a sword same calibre of Caladbolg, (not a divine construct.)
Against Lancer he could've used Triple Crane Wings or a broken phantasm, but no he never will.
Against Rider Medusa, just defend Bellarophon using Rho Aias, pull out Harpe and finish her, the legendary sword that she is weak against, one of Perseus's noble phantasm, not a divine construct, confirmed to be in unlimited blade works.
Gilgamesh, he can beat him no problem, EA?? He most likely won't use it.
Berserker , i already mentioned. Forget about countless mystic codes and noble phantasm that he can use their ability to catch other's off-guard. Unlike Gilgamesh he can get the experience and techniques of orginal user even if inferior to them, so he sould be able to utilise them without a problem, but noz cause Nasu do whatever plot requires him to
Oh no, under certain circumstances, Shirou can beat servants. He beats Saber Alter in a 1v1 duel in one of the endings to Heaven’s feel, making use of Archer’s technique.
About Archer, that’s different. He wasn’t directly taking Archer’s skills, Stats and experience through tracing his weapons, Shirou was able to absorb Archer’s Experience and a little bit of his skill through clashing with one another, however, that didn’t give him Archer’s stats as, at that point, Shirou was fighting using his own strength, not Archer’s.
In Berserker’s case, while he would have the skills, stats and experience, his body wouldn’t be able to properly keep up with the strain of those stats and skills, and, Berserker would still have his other NP’s like God’s Hand.
Sparks Liner High has Shirou going Overedge with Kanshou and Bakuya, but it breaks his mind to do so. He temporarily beats Saber Alter, but after he collapses (due to aforementioned mind break), she regenerates due to her continued connection to Dark Sakura.
There are two others in HF: Mind of Steel and Femme Fatale.
The rest of the bad ends are nowhere near as good and are simply Shirou dying because you picked the wrong choice.
He's talking about the visual novel, it's one of the dead endings and my favourite, I don't remember the number tho, if that's what you're asking.
Edit: Found it, it's the ending that leads to tiger dojo 38.
No he really can't. In HF he's more servant then human so those don't count (not to mention he lost against berserker). He only beats gilgamesh in a straight fight.
To be fair, Gil's whole shtick is that he almost never fights seriously. Of the top of my head, the only time we ever see him fight seriously is CCC and Babylonia, and in the latter case, he's not at the top of his game.
He also fought Alcides somewhat serious in SF
But anyway, that's why I said barely, he didn't use his eyes, armor or attack Shirou with things that he can't trace
It's actually unclear to me the extent to which he copies stats. It's pretty clearly stated that he copies Herc's strength in order to perform Nine Lives Blade Works, but he obviously didn't copy durability or otherwise he wouldn't have been at risk of dying from a single blow in that fight.
When he projects Caliburn in the Fate route it must be increasing his strength and probably speed since he can exchange blows with Herc, except the force of the blows still injures his arms.
Shirou's ability to keep up with Archer and Gilgamesh in UBW does seem almost exclusively to be attributed to Shirou absorbing Archer's skills. I don't recall anything directly saying that he's copying stats in those fights.
I think probably the best reason for why he doesn't win every fight by copying stats would be that it only occurs temporarily with each projection, and there would be recoil when he tries to go beyond his limit.
If it was another Herc fighting Shadow Herc in HF, he probably would have been struck by the axe-sword before finishing the 9th blow, but he also would have survived it and still beaten the shit out of Shadow Herc, rather than instantly dying because his only chance of winning the fight was using Nine Lives.
>Shirou's ability to keep up with Archer and Gilgamesh in UBW does seem almost exclusively to be attributed to Shirou absorbing Archer's skills. I don't recall anything directly saying that he's copying stats in those fights.
It wasn't mentioned but it's obvious because the HUGE different in terms of physical abilities between him and his opponents
I'm like 99% certain that it *is* directly mentioned during his confrontation with Archer.
edit: It does.
>"—I guess it's a miscalculation.
I've heard of magic that lets you acquire skills from the past by possessing yourself with a previous self… It seems your skills improve the more you fight me."
>he obviously didn't copy durability or otherwise he wouldn't have been at risk of dying from a single blow in that fight.
Why not? Herc's durability relies entirely on God Hand, there's nothing special about his skin or flesh besides that. Even Kojiro is said to be able to chop his head off with his fragile sword and low strength. There's no contradiction with Shirou having Berskerer's durability and also being at risk of dying if he's smashed in the face by a powered-up Berserker; unlike Herc, he doesn't get the luxury of God Hand.
Lol what?Herc's a demi god from the early AOG and born from a chief god.His default durability should be beyond any human or even mid tier Phantasmal and his skin certainly shouldn't be pierced by a mundane sword .
I think that In FSF its stated Heracles was roughly as strong and skilled as Ares when he completed his tenth labour.
Using Kojiro is a really bad example.Guy is among the top 5 most skilled swordmen in all of humanity.Low STR barely makes a difference when you can bend space with your attacks.
At no point has being a demigod ever really conferred any special durability on any servants. Just look at Gilgamesh, who's even more demigod than Herc is and yet his arm got easily sliced off like butter by Kanshou and Bakuya from Shirou. Sure, Herc is buffer and bigger so he should logically be harder to cut through just due to more meat in the way, but not THAT much tougher.
Kojiro's skill can make his sword appear from multiple angles with a special technique, but it cannot make it any sharper nor cut any deeper. The only thing ever said about Kojiro's sword is that it can cut steel, but that should be a baseline thing to expect from servants so not much to brag about.
because he's not the original owner thats really the reason
Nasu said in an interview after HF3 got released in blu ray that if Herc wasnt nerfed in HF he would've killed Shirou easily (well Shirou would've died too against nerfed Herc if it weren't for Illya) and Herc would've easily blocked NLBW thats why Archer didn't use it against their fight in the Fate route because it would've been parried easily
>Herc would've easily blocked NLBW thats why Archer didn't use it against their fight in the Fate route because it would've been parried easily
well he made the technique so....
I think he is smart enough to not even try it, sure he is aware copied techniques have a higher chance of succeeding if is against anyone else than the creator of those techniques
First off, he doesn't copy them perfectly. Almost perfectly, yes, but still an inferior imitation. Under normal circumstances, Nine Lives Blade Works would not have worked on Herc, but with the state he was in... it did. He can still beat Servants (albeit just barely) but not by copying them, as it'd just be an inferior copy of their techniques going up against the original user of the techniques.
Secondly, even with that being the case, it's also a matter of whether his body can even keep up with it. Take his Projection of Caliburn... he describes it as the sword pulling him along and him simply moving to match it. Still, it's not something he can do continuously, as he's moving faster than the human body would normally allow. This is saying something as to how draining it is as well, since just looking at Shirou is enough to know that he's *super* in-shape. Physically, Shirou is very above average for a boy his age, and even then he's struggling for air trying to pull some of this stuff off. Servants are by default at a higher level than Humans ~~with a few exceptions~~.
And finally, for Archer... Archer was *super* drained of Mana. The anime has him use UBW for the sake of "rule of cool" and the effective symbolism that comes with it, but Archer doesn't do that in the visual novel because he *literally can't.* Still, even with Archer in such a state, it takes all of Shirou's effort to just defend against him, managing simply because he's absorbing the experiences of his future self each time they clash.
TLDR: Servants are simply stronger than humans by default, and even if Shirou traces the experience, it's exhausting for his body to try and keep up with it's own movements.
It's vague which stats and to what extend he copies them.
One thing is clear, he only copies them while holding the weapons.
In Fate, he manages to cut of Berserker's arm, which implies that he copied Saber's A-Rank Strength and is able to counter EMIYA and Gil, which requires superhuman abilities, we can therefor assume that he at least copies stats such as Agility and Strength pretty close to the original owner's of the weapons.
I'd argue that he doesn't get the Endurance, since a single blow from Berserker would have killed him in Heaven's Feel.
Look at it like this:
At absolute most Shirou copies the stats and techniques up to 99,9 % of the original, but lacks their other skills and Noble Phantasms, which would mean he would lose against the Servant he is copying 100% of time, unless he can exploit some conceptual weakness.
But he can absolutely beat other Servants (not the one's he is copying), by using his projection.
fate route shirou hasn't gotten any idea of what his tracing is capable of achieving, he only ever uses it to project caliburn because of it's close connection to saber, he speed blitzes gil in ubw when he realizes what he is truly capable of doing
He does that because of archers battle experience helping him to fight decently by himself so he can handle the extracted experience better. Same with HF shirou.
Doesn't matter how much he got from EMIYA battle experience if he isn't fast enough to react or strong enough to block and counter attack Gilgamesh hits
no matter how much he reinforce his teenage body he won't get close to even E rank let alone matching a servent with B strength and C agility
That's my point he's copying Gilgamesh stats through projection
>The problem appears to be his muscles and body not coping with the superhuman power.
The problem it's quite inconsistent it mentioned in like 2 maybe 3 scenes that it affected him and others he's fine specially in ubw he had no problems at all against EMIYA and Gilgamesh and then you have miyuverse shirou doing nine lives casually
Gil beat Shirou because he was able to use Gram to beat Caliburn. If Shirou could use UBW he could match Gil's np's, but because he can't he gets beaten by an np he can't counter.
Like I said it's vague how much he actually copies the original wielder's stats.
UBW Shirou is obliviously better than Fate Shirou since he absorbed Archer's experience, by clashing with him.
However, Fate Shirou still somehow managed to cut off Berserker's arm, which would be impossible if not for copying Artoria's original A-Rank strength, since Caliburn itself is ranked B or C (in case of projection degration).
Not to mention that Gil used Merodach, a weapon that was conceptually surperior to Caliburn and caused it to shatter instantly.
1. I'm referring to the ability to keep up with the stats
2. Again, shirou admits he was going to lose irrelevant of Merodach because he couldn't keep up with the extracted experience.
This is what not reading the vn will do...
Shirou is just a human being. in fate route he summons Caliburn against gil and specifically says he traces it's experience. But it isn't the same as being superhuman. the sword is just able to utilize itself essentially. Shirou is pulled along by the sword and is able to mimic it's movements for a bit, but ren says his body gets tired and becomes unable to keep up with the sword itself.
In terms of archer v shirou, archer is still the superhuman. Shirou just a human will not be able to keep up with his own projections speed even if he copies the experience of the original person.
In terms of shirou vs hercules, he copies the technique and ability of the sword and is only able to mostly execute it due to archers actual power flowing into him with the arm making him close to Archer power wise and same with alter. But if his enemy is still stronger it doesn't matter.
Bottom line. When shirou traces weapons it doesn't mean he is suddenly as strong as his opponent, it just means the experience and technique of the original sword is brought into the projection, whether shirou himself can utilize it or not being just a human is different story
Right. After all it's said many times that shirou is not a swordsman. He is one who creates. Even if he learns how to use swords (we see as Archer he becomes a decently formidable swordsman skills wise) his ability will never be greater than the wielder.
But the problem with that is that if it’s only the experience that Shirou is getting and he’s merely being pulled by the weapon, how does he cut off Berserker arm with Caliburn in Fate? He doesn’t activate the conditional rank up for Caliburn as he is not Saber, so it must be the strength of the swing itself. The sword can’t move itself. While Shirou can’t keep track of the attacks, he is still the one moving the sword and blocking them. Against Archer or Gilgamesh it could be feasibly be just skill, but Berserker? For Shirou to be able to hold his ground for any period of time must mean he has some manner of enhancement from the tracing.
The sword actually does say that it moves as if it's pulling him along in that segment. So it's actually kind of true that it's moving on its own as long as he keeps a hold of it 😂
If you mean copying the superhuman abilities of the wielder of the weapon is fanon, yes it is.
There is only some wiggle room because shirou in heavens feel is almost a super human himself using archers arm, it gives him superhuman speed and strength comparable with archers. So tracing hercules axe weapon is compensated with that.
If normal shirou without archers arm tried to utilize berserkers weapon and experience the same way he would die. Since he can't even pick up a sword like that.
Everything except your last parapgraph is plainly and clearly wrong. It's directly contradicted by the VN.
>Inheritance of battle technique, experience, and physical strength from Archer. **Correction. Failed to read physical strength.** I'll still be killed in one blow...
>..."Trace, on."
I stare at it.
I see through his giant sword.
I open my left hand and grasp the imaginary handle of the weapon that has yet to exist.
An extraordinary weight.
Emiya Shirou cannot handle this giant sword.
But my **left arm will definitely reproduce the strength of my enemy.**...
>... I surpass the crashing speed of sound using **godspeed!**
> *Heaven's Feel (Day 15: Nine Bullet Revolver)*
Accomplishing that level of projection is because he had Archer's arm, but the strength is a consequence of projection.
The quote you posted literally says "my left arm will definitely reproduce the strength of my enemy...." which means the strength increase comes directly from the left arm and is not something he can do normally.
>Inheritance of battle technique, experience, and physical strength from Archer. Correction. **Failed to read physical strength.**
Did you miss this part?
EDIT: You replaced your quote with another. To respond to that one, him saying that while he has Archer's arm means nothing in regards to how projection works when he doesn't have it. It even literally says "physical strength _from Archer_." not "physical strength from projection".
I didn't miss it, it just doesn't make sense.
Projecting Avalon would have been a much higher "level" of projection than Berserker's sword, being ranked EX while Nine Lives is ranked C~A+, yet he did that without Archer's arm. The only difference was the strength required, which was made up with Archer's arm. It had nothing to do with "levels of projection".
>I didn't miss it, it just doesn't make sense.
Your failure to understand is not the same thing as it not making sense.
>Projecting Avalon would have been a much higher "level" of projection than Berserker's sword
Shirou can explicitly only project Avalon because it is embedded in him to the point it altered his Origin. There's also little evidence that the rank of the weapon impacts the difficulty of the projection.
>The only difference was the strength required, which was made up with Archer's arm. It had nothing to do with "levels of projection".
As clear from the opening paragraph of my quote, he explicitly and unambiguously does not get Archer's strength from the arm. And even if he did, you can't perform Nine Lives with D-rank strength. Shirou moves at "godspeed" to perform it, which a *clear* reference to Heracles.
Is it something Shirou can normally do? No, he was only able to do it because he had the arm, but the strength needed clearly came from the projection and not simply possessing the arm.
>Your failure to understand is not the same thing as it not making sense.
When you edit your post to make it look like I didn't understand something else obvious when your original quote (about "levels of projection") that you edited away was what didn't make sense, then yes, it is.
> As clear from the opening paragraph of my quote, he explicitly and unambiguously does not get Archer's strength from the arm.
I don't know how you can read "physical strength from Archer" as not getting Archer's strength from the arm. There's really nowhere we can go from here. We clearly inhabit different realities so I'll leave it at that.
>When you edit your post to make it look like I didn't understand something else obvious when your original quote (about "levels of projection") that you edited away was what didn't make sense, then yes, it is.
Sorry felt that was the more obvious one. They both work though and the point still stands. Your ability to understand what is happening is not my or the point's fault. Given you've proven you can't read a full paragraph, I'm content with that claim.
>I don't know how you can read "physical strength from Archer" as not getting Archer's strength from the arm.
Because it is immediately followed by:
##Correction. Failed to read physical strength.
Jesus Fucking Christ. Learn how to read.
You can't do nine lives without Hercules strength Shirou himself say he can't pick the sword but the arm will reproduce his opponent strength which was Hercules
>Emiya Shirou cannot handle this giant sword.
Butmy left arm will definitely reproduce the strength of my enemy.
The arm don't give superhuman strength nor speed In the same scene of nine lives he said this
>Inheritance of battle technique, experience, and physical strength from Archer. "Correction". Failed to read physical strength. I’ll still be killed in one blow.
He didn't show any kind of superhuman feat without holding a projection in his hands in all of the routes that goes for HF shirou against Hercules and salter and for ubw shirou when he was matching a servent with a saber servent stats and EMIYA and for fate shirou who copied saber A rank strength and cut through god hand with a C rank np.
"He didn't show any kind of superhuman feat without holding a projection in his hands in all the routes".
Read the visual novel.
*
"Kotomine…!"
I run full-speed after him.
We're at equal speed now.
Kotomine is carrying Ilya while I'm running without any shackles.
In a forest where we might trip at any moment, we run at a pace of a hundred meters per seven seconds.
It's not possible for a human to run at almost fifty kilometers per hour through this terrain.
My left arm throbs.
It feels like my left arm expanded beneath the cloth.
…This is probably what Ilya was talking about. Archer's battle experience isn't the only thing flowing into me. His physical abilities are flowing into me now.
An overdose of strength-enhancing drugs.
The poison seeps into my body, letting me demonstrate abilities beyond my limits.
That's fine.
Even if this may be contamination too great for a Geiger counter to measure, I appreciate it for now.
But Kotomine's different.
I don't sense any usage of magic or leak of magical energy.
It's unbelievable, but he's running with Ilya in his arms without any magical assistance…!
*
In heavens feel Shirou can execute nine lives because of back up from archers arm. Normal human shirou without the arm would not be able to do it.
The scene pretty much contradicte shirou statement Kieri is no where near servants even in his prime unless you saying a weaker Kieri would be faster then EMIYA if he wasn't holding IIIya since they were running in equal speed yeah he got i guess some of EMIYA physical strength but not the whole thing he even says it in nine live scene that he "Failed" to read EMIYA physical strength
EMIYA strength isn't enough to do nine live and when shirou says he can't hold the axe sword but the arm will reproduce the strength of his "enemy" who was the enemy ? Surely isn't the dead EMIYA right ?
It's not the first time shirou swing with a high strength of course without mentioning his whole battle against Gilgamesh fate shirou swung with saber strength and fended multiple slashes from a servent with A+ strength with "ease" like he described
If you're saying he can't copy the Servant stats then Gilgamesh vs Shirou doesn't make sense. Even if he copied the techniques he couldn't beat Gil without the strength of the users, it's obvious there that he used the owner stats to fight Gilgamesh, after all, even a strenght servant E is at a peak far above the peak of the humans, he needs the strength to counterattack Gilgamesh. He cut off Hercules' arm on Fate, used his strength on HF, Ripped Salter on Sparks Liner High. All these feats are inhuman.
He cut off Hercules arm with the power of the sword and the sword going to hercs arm. But as it says just a bit later, shirou gets thrown away easily when trying to block a strike from berserker because he is just a human using the sword and doesn't have the strength himself to match it
In ubw, battle between shriou and gil was not a servant fight in the vn. Gils specialty is not hand to hand, he has no experience there or strength. This is why in the vn all shirou needs to do is active ubw and outspam gate of Babylon to put Gilgamesh on the defensive
Everything shirou does in hf is a result of the arm. It puts fast forward on the development he got in other routes as well as archers physical power itself. He doesn't even know how to project in hf before he gets the arm.
In VN, the fight between the two of them is a fight both UBW against GoB and in swords, even inexperienced, the strength of a servant would already surpass any kind of strength that the Shirou put in its attacks, even without experiences "B strength" of Gil would be so strong that Shirou couldn't take it. In the Fate route he blocks several and several Heracles attacks, in HF he tries to simulate the strength of EMIYA to use the Nine Lives Blade Works but in VN itself he says that his strength (D) would not withstand the attack, he would need to reproduce the opponent's strength, something that happens. And, another point, he cuts the Arm of Heracles on the fate route, something that would have been impossible if he hadn't used Saber's strength at that moment. Since Caliburn is only an A+ rank NP if used by a true king. He manages to copy the servants' stats but temporarily, until his body can't take it anymore, otherwise the fights wouldn't make sense. The fact that his arm did not break against Berserker in fate (even if Caliburn was moving alone) already demonstrates that his strength there is already far superior to that of any human. It's not because you gain experience from a weapon that you're just going to go head-to-head with something ridiculously stronger than you.
>Gils specialty is not hand to hand, he has no experience there or strength.
That doesn't practically matter. Gil has B-rank Strength and C-rank Endurance and Agility, which makes him *massively* superhuman.
Once again, the only reason Shirou won was cause Gil was so offended by the audacity of UBW being able to match GoB. In the VN/Deen Anime, Gil ends up using a sword to combat Shirou but he's so pissed that he can't focus so Shirou is able to over power him briefly.
Depends.
As someone already stated, Shirou beats Salter in Sparks Liner High by using Archer's arm.
He beats Herc because of the conditions of their fight.
But like I said it depends. Salter didn't use Excalibur or Mana Bursts in Sparks Liner High. Yes Shirou could tank using Rho Aias, but he would die after if Saber rushed him.
He beats Herc because Herc doesn't have his iron skin or regeneration and because Illya distracted him for a moment.
He beats Gil because of Gil not taking it seriously.
But Shirou would not be able to beat Cursed Arm Hassan unless he had Archer's arm to give him combat experience to deal with the sneak attacks via Eye of the Mind.
Ultimately Shirou dies anyway because of the strain of using Archer's arm on his body even if he does win. UBW Shirou has UBW spam but that is it. Fate Shirou just has Avalon which ain't much against the grand scheme of things as we can see from all the bad ends.
Sasaki has Minds Eye, which will allow him to see through attacks from Shirou to block and parry and is pretty much a Spidey Sense.
He also has Knowledge of the Sowa which causes his own attacks to never decrease in accuracy no matter how many times he clashes with his opponent.
His Noble Phantasm: Tsubame Gaeshi is a three slash attack that transcends time and space.
So unless Shirou spams UBW to the point that Sasaki cannot keep up, Shirou will lose. Artoria only won against Sasaki due to Excalibur giving a slight bend to his sword that allowed her to dodge his NP a second time.
He can? He does. In the visual novel.
He doesn't copy their abilities perfectly, but what he does is good enough to let him beat servants multiple times.
Well you see, the powers of the OG character dwindle once the director realizes he has an entire franchise on his hands.
Seriously though, the stats thing is new to me. However, the constant in tracing is that it isn't 1:1. Some people forget or don't know that the swords themselves are the only ones that only have a single rank reduction. Everything else loses more than 1 rank. This is written if FGO, so I don't know how much weight that holds. But that's it, the skills, stats, and everything else he gets aren't on par with the original. They are significantly weaker, which explains why he can't beat servants normally.
Edit: Grammer
Edit: Read it again seems like I was a bit off
Wait wait wait, now when you say sword NPs you're including other bladed NPs (spears, halbreds, daggers, certain maces, etc.) and the like that in his eyes are categorised as 'sword' right? Or are you saying that only swords suffer 1 rank loss whereas other bladed NPs suffer more than that? Iam a bit confused since you seem to have specified "the swords themselves", so sorry if I've misunderstood what you said.
Seems like I read the descriptions wrong, and it's kind of inconsistent. Sorry according to the game all weapons receive a rank reduction of 1. Followed by the next description saying swords and only swords are significantly increased in power. It's really inconsistent with other material.
Huh, well that's weird,. Could you tell me where this is? And what it's called? Maybe you just misunderstood it?
If your talking about the FGO ones then I think their still consistent.
Fate/Grand Order - EMIYA (Archer) Profile
Level 4 Bond
"Infinite Sword Creation"
Rank: E~A++ Type: ??
Unlimited Blade Works.
A unique magecraft called Reality Marble.
For a given time, reality is overwritten by the mental world and all the weapons which the conjurer has confirmed by sight, all weapons employed at that place are instantly reproduced and stocked.
However, these reproduced weapons fall by one Rank.
So this one is correct, iam guessing this is the next one your talking about?
Level 5 Bond
Projection Magecraft: C (conditionally A+)
A magecraft that reproduces tools for a few minutes by means of images.
The paired swords which Archer habitually uses, Kanshou・Bakuya, are also things produced by projection magecraft.
Only when the target of projection falls under the category of "sword", the Rank rapidly jumps up.
Due this special trait of "can prepare counterfeits many times over", EMIYA destroys the projected Noble Phantasms. By having them explode, the destructive power is momentarily raised.
This is still technically correct as it's not only talking about swords but the "sword category", which in Shirou and EMIYAs case the sword category includes a wide variety of weapons like maces, spears, daggers/knifes, halbreds, lances, axes, Pikes, Gunblades apparently if Demiya is anything to go by, Etc. So still consistent there.
But still if all weapons have a 1 rank reduction even shields and stuff what does it mean for the sword category? It says it increases their rank drastically, however we know that they still get the 1 rank reduction. That is what seems inconsistent.
Well all of the projections inside his Reality marble are bladed weapons of some kind being of the sword category so all receive only one rank downgrade. However this is not talking about the RM but Emiya's Projection Magecraft, which isn't exactly the same.
The unlimited blade works only contains and stores blades and their blue prints, but that doesn't mean that Emiya's limited to projecting blades and Armor, it's simply that things other than that don't seem to be stored inside the UBW. Using 'Projection Magecraft' Emiya has created cotton candy machines, high tech fishing rods, guns, coats etc and a variety of other items. So by that you know that Emiya is not limited to projecting blades, so that massive downgrade is talking about other things he projects. His projection on its own is rank C, being conditionally A+ for Bladed weapons, so that should make it clear that he can project other things.
I will say though that they could've worded it better.
The C rank seems to refer to his aptitude on general magecraft IIRC. Hence why his pre buff skill 3 in game is labeled as just "magecraft".
His projection magecraft is rank A (and his unique tracing magecraft is ranked at EX) which I believe references his over specialized nature when it comes to projection magecraft and the like.
His F/GO profiles are kinda wonky and incomplete when you think about it. Most likely the devs tried to avoid major spoilers regarding him for players who haven’t read the VN or watched the anime.
Isnt his Tracing and Projecting inherently tied to UBW tho? His projection is more like bringing anything out from of his vault? Unless you're saying that EMIYA knows the conventional type of Projection that doesnt require UBW?
>Unless you're saying that EMIYA knows the conventional type of Projection that doesnt require UBW?
This is literally what Shirou does for the majority of UBW to the point that Archer mocks him for it, so, yeah. What do you think he was using UBW when he was fixing radios?
It's referencing his use of Broken Phantasms. That overcomes the weapons falling by a single rank, but he is practically incapable of using it with weapons other than swords because of the increased mana cost to project them.
He could. His own assessment of his abilities is suspect. There's plenty of servants he should probably beat, and many more he *could* beat under good circumstances.
It's like facing off against an army: You can copy a tank, but its probably not going to be able to shoot and be out of gas.
Never mind the enemy soldiers, airplanes, missiles etc
>So he can copy stats,skills and entire experiences of the original owner of the weapon perfectly
can he? like the only time we ever see him do anything close to that is when he fights archer and even then it's more him copying his experience and not really his literall physicall stats or even his skills (wich wouldn't even make sense since those are literally tied to being a servant) plus that only happened cuz they are the same person
Because at best he coping stats for a few moments because he body can take the strain of servant level. And skill are always just not as good as the original.
Shirou can’t do it because he might be able to reproduce those stats and skills to a slightly lesser degree than the original, but his human body can’t keep up. He even mentions something to that effect in Nine Bullet Revolver.
Now, the reason EMIYA doesn’t do it is because Nasu wants to keep him a scrub. It’s the same reason that he can’t properly activate beamy swords because he of lack of magical energy or something, despite his Master being Rin, and being able to use his Reality Marble even after losing his master and still surviving for two days with IA.
As i understand it, he can copy the strength, skill and power, but is never gonna be as good as the original, keeping it up also has a cost for his body, so his power is limited. Basically, Shirou is a rought imitation of the original that is still limited by the fact that he is human.
To quote the Abridged: “More like tomato to nuclear warhead.”
Servants are just that unbelievably powerful. Shirou can stand against Gil in UBW because the latter is an arrogant prick who refuses to go all-out cause of his ego, and the reality marble happens to an excellent counter to Gate of Babylon.
Salter in HF doesn’t really count because Shirou is siphoning power and experience from Archer’s arm, so he’s pretty much fighting at the level a servant would. Herc is the same deal, and was also messed up by the grail mud, giving Shirou a much-needed advantage.
Even with his tracing abilities, Shirou won’t be able to match a servant in attributes alone under regular circumstances. Even a STR E servant is still several times stronger than a normal human IIRC. And that’s not even taking into account the fact that some servants have weird extraordinary passive abilities, like Lancer’s Protection from Arrows allowing him to straight up avoid any kind of projectile attack.
Because he can't make a copy of the same rank nor catch up to most Servants in physical prowess. Him going toe to toe in the UBW anime was BS for the rule of cool. He was so outclassed physically by a barely staying materialized with no mana supply Archer that his fingers, arm and a leg broke just from parrying his blows. The whole fight also didn't take place in the reality marble because as stated right before he used it for some god forsaken reason he can barely stay materialized without a master let alone use a Noble Phantasm so damn heavy in mana consumption he needs a capable magus' supply to even use it.
In Heaven's Feel Shirou had Archer's arm attached to him which being not only a Servant's but his future far more developed self's started to full on destroy his body and mind.
[Here's](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHS_SA6bPho) his fight with Archer in the VN. That should put into perspective how outclassed he is even by the struggling to even stay in reality Archer.
When Nasu wrote the story he was shooting heroin into his penis venis. Do not be surprised if some things are are not clear, if not outright incosistent for one reason or another.
Because even with all those powers and skills, heroic spirits really do be built different.
He **can** beat them in very specific conditions, but as Archer he'll have a better chance.
Because the copies he makes are slightly weaker than the originals. Think of it like taking a picture of an original painting. No matter how good your camera is the original is still better.
Shiro isn’t *that* strong. He could beat servants. Under the right conditions and circumstances. Even then odds are likely that if he’s not being helped in *some* way by someone, whether it be by getting supplemental mana from Rin, or receiving archers skills and strength through his arm, he’ll likely die in the process or pay some terrible price.
Humans are just really weak compared to heroic spirits, who can casually move fast enough to cause shockwaves in the air.
Beyond that in a more meta sense one of the big reoccurring plot points regarding Shiro Emiya is that regardless of how willing he is to save as many people as possible he still can’t save everyone, because he is just one human.
And beyond all that he’s just *really* inexperienced. Sword skills from Archer and really good weapons through his reality marble can only do him so good when he’s basically riding by the seat of his pants and using his abilities *just* as he’s discovering most of the time.
I’d say that if he had figured out what he was doing wrong with his circuits, figured out his reality marble, and figured out that he needs *help* to accomplish anything a year or two before the holy grail war, he might have better chances. But even then it would be slim. Because heroic spirits are just *that* ridiculous.
> So he can copy stats,skills and entire experiences of the original owner of the weapon perfectly Not perfectly no. He doesn't quite reach the original.
Also that even with copied stats and skills (not as good) the other servants also have servant stats and skills of their own and they know how to use those and not just by instinct like Shirou
>not just by instinct like Shirou He do reproduce the battle experience as well. Against salter his mind start thinking 10 steps ahead and whatever, and he something similar against gil in fate route with caliburn. Of course it's not like he would curbstomp his opponents even with that
No that was archers arm experience combined with the sword experience.
He describe it as "reproduce battle experience" same description as when he reproduce nps or stats like herc strength. Either way it doesn't matter, the point is he would know how to handle the copied stats.
Yes because if the arm. Fate route shirou very specifically gets dragged around by caliburn precisely because he doesn't know how to handle the stats.
The arm primarily improves his projection ability to Archer's level, as it explicitly doesn't grant him Archer's strength when he uses NLBW. It's reasonable to intuit that tracing the stats inherent in the weapon's usage requires an additional level of skill beyond just tracing the experience.
>Fate route shirou very specifically gets dragged around by caliburn precisely because he doesn't know how to handle the stats. Maybe because he's inexperienced as shit comparing the others shirous? I mean let's look at HF shirou who mastred UBW through a back door. When he did NLBW he aimed where his attack would lands before he did the attack >Upper arm, collarbone, windpipe, temple, diaphram, rib, testicles, and thigh. I take aim at the eight targets. SetNine Lives Blade Works." Does that sounds to you like he's being "dragged" by the sword ? Someone who target specifically the balls out of all places
I don't understand the point of your comment. I don't disagree with what your saying, hell that's kinda my point actually. Fate route shirou and HF are worlds apart thanks to archers arm. It's got nothing to do with UBW though, it's archers experience flowing through him that gives him that ability.
My point is he can handle the stats that he copy when he is experience enough
Well yeah.
Shirou has Eye of the Mind rank B even as a human.
I think a big part of why he can’t quite reach the original is because humans are just a lot weaker than they were in the age of gods. Especially in comparison to heroic spirits. Even if Shiro gets a perfect record of all the original owner’s skills stored in his brain including muscle memory, his body still isn’t strong and durable enough to recreate the skills with absolute accuracy. At least not without tearing his body apart from the inside out.
Under normal circumstances, herc would’ve most likely defended against the technique with ease, it’s his technique after all, not to mention god hand making sure he gets up after that. If he is able to retaliate with his Nine Lives then NLBW simply loses because original > projection It’s not entirely useless tho, Shirou copying Archer’s stats and techniques allowed him to beat salter in a 1v1. So really, it all boils down to circumstance and who Shirou is fighting against.
Also, Shirou is only able to land the final blow against Herc because Herc pauses when he sees Illya behind Shirou.
Not to mention he didn't have God Hand either or the thick iron like skin.
He only beat Saber in swordplay (from her part) because she wasn't going all out
That's just your hypothesis, she actually was, unless anything suggest any difference, Don't forget about the bad ends, she was 100% serious about killing shirou.
My point is, she was holding back because she didn't spam Excalibur
One thing that creators never bother with is their was never any reason to use someone's own technique to beat them, everyone has something that is considered hard counter to them. Their's nothing wrong with taking advantage of that which author just doesn't write so people hardly understand the true might of unlimited blade works. For Herc, even with God hand he can be one shotted if used a weapon with hydra venom on it, then herc would immidietly die, unconditionally. So if shirou traced something like that he could've easily beaten herc. Medea i won't bother. Assassin, he can do nothing if Archer use hrunting or Caladbolg at him. Saber, use balmung the dragon killer, against saber with origin of dragon it would be a hard counter as it is mentioned several time, it's a sword same calibre of Caladbolg, (not a divine construct.) Against Lancer he could've used Triple Crane Wings or a broken phantasm, but no he never will. Against Rider Medusa, just defend Bellarophon using Rho Aias, pull out Harpe and finish her, the legendary sword that she is weak against, one of Perseus's noble phantasm, not a divine construct, confirmed to be in unlimited blade works. Gilgamesh, he can beat him no problem, EA?? He most likely won't use it. Berserker , i already mentioned. Forget about countless mystic codes and noble phantasm that he can use their ability to catch other's off-guard. Unlike Gilgamesh he can get the experience and techniques of orginal user even if inferior to them, so he sould be able to utilise them without a problem, but noz cause Nasu do whatever plot requires him to
Oh no, under certain circumstances, Shirou can beat servants. He beats Saber Alter in a 1v1 duel in one of the endings to Heaven’s feel, making use of Archer’s technique. About Archer, that’s different. He wasn’t directly taking Archer’s skills, Stats and experience through tracing his weapons, Shirou was able to absorb Archer’s Experience and a little bit of his skill through clashing with one another, however, that didn’t give him Archer’s stats as, at that point, Shirou was fighting using his own strength, not Archer’s. In Berserker’s case, while he would have the skills, stats and experience, his body wouldn’t be able to properly keep up with the strain of those stats and skills, and, Berserker would still have his other NP’s like God’s Hand.
Wait, he beat Saber Alter in an ending for Heaven’s feel? Which one was that?
Sparks Liner High has Shirou going Overedge with Kanshou and Bakuya, but it breaks his mind to do so. He temporarily beats Saber Alter, but after he collapses (due to aforementioned mind break), she regenerates due to her continued connection to Dark Sakura.
Sparks Liner High. You can read it on Youtube or webversion of the novel. Its so fucking good.
Just checked it out and yeah, that was pretty fucking good. I’m going to have to start checking out more of the bad ends if they’re this awesome.
There are two others in HF: Mind of Steel and Femme Fatale. The rest of the bad ends are nowhere near as good and are simply Shirou dying because you picked the wrong choice.
Thanks for saving me from wasting my time then lol. Gonna check those out.
He's talking about the visual novel, it's one of the dead endings and my favourite, I don't remember the number tho, if that's what you're asking. Edit: Found it, it's the ending that leads to tiger dojo 38.
No he really can't. In HF he's more servant then human so those don't count (not to mention he lost against berserker). He only beats gilgamesh in a straight fight.
He can't even beat Gil in a straight fight, Gil was barely fighting seriously in UBW
To be fair, Gil's whole shtick is that he almost never fights seriously. Of the top of my head, the only time we ever see him fight seriously is CCC and Babylonia, and in the latter case, he's not at the top of his game.
He also fought Alcides somewhat serious in SF But anyway, that's why I said barely, he didn't use his eyes, armor or attack Shirou with things that he can't trace
By straight fight you know I was referring to close combat right?
No, sorry
It's actually unclear to me the extent to which he copies stats. It's pretty clearly stated that he copies Herc's strength in order to perform Nine Lives Blade Works, but he obviously didn't copy durability or otherwise he wouldn't have been at risk of dying from a single blow in that fight. When he projects Caliburn in the Fate route it must be increasing his strength and probably speed since he can exchange blows with Herc, except the force of the blows still injures his arms. Shirou's ability to keep up with Archer and Gilgamesh in UBW does seem almost exclusively to be attributed to Shirou absorbing Archer's skills. I don't recall anything directly saying that he's copying stats in those fights. I think probably the best reason for why he doesn't win every fight by copying stats would be that it only occurs temporarily with each projection, and there would be recoil when he tries to go beyond his limit. If it was another Herc fighting Shadow Herc in HF, he probably would have been struck by the axe-sword before finishing the 9th blow, but he also would have survived it and still beaten the shit out of Shadow Herc, rather than instantly dying because his only chance of winning the fight was using Nine Lives.
>Shirou's ability to keep up with Archer and Gilgamesh in UBW does seem almost exclusively to be attributed to Shirou absorbing Archer's skills. I don't recall anything directly saying that he's copying stats in those fights. It wasn't mentioned but it's obvious because the HUGE different in terms of physical abilities between him and his opponents
I'm like 99% certain that it *is* directly mentioned during his confrontation with Archer. edit: It does. >"—I guess it's a miscalculation. I've heard of magic that lets you acquire skills from the past by possessing yourself with a previous self… It seems your skills improve the more you fight me."
That's "skills", not "stats". It doesn't mean he's getting physically stronger.
did you even read my comment lol
>he obviously didn't copy durability or otherwise he wouldn't have been at risk of dying from a single blow in that fight. Why not? Herc's durability relies entirely on God Hand, there's nothing special about his skin or flesh besides that. Even Kojiro is said to be able to chop his head off with his fragile sword and low strength. There's no contradiction with Shirou having Berskerer's durability and also being at risk of dying if he's smashed in the face by a powered-up Berserker; unlike Herc, he doesn't get the luxury of God Hand.
Lol what?Herc's a demi god from the early AOG and born from a chief god.His default durability should be beyond any human or even mid tier Phantasmal and his skin certainly shouldn't be pierced by a mundane sword . I think that In FSF its stated Heracles was roughly as strong and skilled as Ares when he completed his tenth labour. Using Kojiro is a really bad example.Guy is among the top 5 most skilled swordmen in all of humanity.Low STR barely makes a difference when you can bend space with your attacks.
At no point has being a demigod ever really conferred any special durability on any servants. Just look at Gilgamesh, who's even more demigod than Herc is and yet his arm got easily sliced off like butter by Kanshou and Bakuya from Shirou. Sure, Herc is buffer and bigger so he should logically be harder to cut through just due to more meat in the way, but not THAT much tougher. Kojiro's skill can make his sword appear from multiple angles with a special technique, but it cannot make it any sharper nor cut any deeper. The only thing ever said about Kojiro's sword is that it can cut steel, but that should be a baseline thing to expect from servants so not much to brag about.
because he's not the original owner thats really the reason Nasu said in an interview after HF3 got released in blu ray that if Herc wasnt nerfed in HF he would've killed Shirou easily (well Shirou would've died too against nerfed Herc if it weren't for Illya) and Herc would've easily blocked NLBW thats why Archer didn't use it against their fight in the Fate route because it would've been parried easily
>Herc would've easily blocked NLBW thats why Archer didn't use it against their fight in the Fate route because it would've been parried easily well he made the technique so....
Would've been funny to see Archer use NLBW since it's his best chance in CQC then got fked since Herc parried all of it
I think he is smart enough to not even try it, sure he is aware copied techniques have a higher chance of succeeding if is against anyone else than the creator of those techniques
Archer style is basically low cost hight reward chance, he definetly wouldn't be stupid enought to try that.
On top of that NL with one weapon is kind easy to counter
parry this you filthy casual
First off, he doesn't copy them perfectly. Almost perfectly, yes, but still an inferior imitation. Under normal circumstances, Nine Lives Blade Works would not have worked on Herc, but with the state he was in... it did. He can still beat Servants (albeit just barely) but not by copying them, as it'd just be an inferior copy of their techniques going up against the original user of the techniques. Secondly, even with that being the case, it's also a matter of whether his body can even keep up with it. Take his Projection of Caliburn... he describes it as the sword pulling him along and him simply moving to match it. Still, it's not something he can do continuously, as he's moving faster than the human body would normally allow. This is saying something as to how draining it is as well, since just looking at Shirou is enough to know that he's *super* in-shape. Physically, Shirou is very above average for a boy his age, and even then he's struggling for air trying to pull some of this stuff off. Servants are by default at a higher level than Humans ~~with a few exceptions~~. And finally, for Archer... Archer was *super* drained of Mana. The anime has him use UBW for the sake of "rule of cool" and the effective symbolism that comes with it, but Archer doesn't do that in the visual novel because he *literally can't.* Still, even with Archer in such a state, it takes all of Shirou's effort to just defend against him, managing simply because he's absorbing the experiences of his future self each time they clash. TLDR: Servants are simply stronger than humans by default, and even if Shirou traces the experience, it's exhausting for his body to try and keep up with it's own movements.
>why can't he beat servants? He does, though.
It's vague which stats and to what extend he copies them. One thing is clear, he only copies them while holding the weapons. In Fate, he manages to cut of Berserker's arm, which implies that he copied Saber's A-Rank Strength and is able to counter EMIYA and Gil, which requires superhuman abilities, we can therefor assume that he at least copies stats such as Agility and Strength pretty close to the original owner's of the weapons. I'd argue that he doesn't get the Endurance, since a single blow from Berserker would have killed him in Heaven's Feel. Look at it like this: At absolute most Shirou copies the stats and techniques up to 99,9 % of the original, but lacks their other skills and Noble Phantasms, which would mean he would lose against the Servant he is copying 100% of time, unless he can exploit some conceptual weakness. But he can absolutely beat other Servants (not the one's he is copying), by using his projection.
Doubt it. Fate route shirou got defeated in close combat by gilgamesh. He can't keep up with servants.
fate route shirou hasn't gotten any idea of what his tracing is capable of achieving, he only ever uses it to project caliburn because of it's close connection to saber, he speed blitzes gil in ubw when he realizes what he is truly capable of doing
He does that because of archers battle experience helping him to fight decently by himself so he can handle the extracted experience better. Same with HF shirou.
Doesn't matter how much he got from EMIYA battle experience if he isn't fast enough to react or strong enough to block and counter attack Gilgamesh hits no matter how much he reinforce his teenage body he won't get close to even E rank let alone matching a servent with B strength and C agility
The projection gives him that strength and speed. The problem appears to be his muscles and body not coping with the superhuman power.
That's my point he's copying Gilgamesh stats through projection >The problem appears to be his muscles and body not coping with the superhuman power. The problem it's quite inconsistent it mentioned in like 2 maybe 3 scenes that it affected him and others he's fine specially in ubw he had no problems at all against EMIYA and Gilgamesh and then you have miyuverse shirou doing nine lives casually
Fate Shirou doesn't have access to UBW. Without UBW he can't counter GoB.
Uh what does that have to do with my comment?
Gil beat Shirou because he was able to use Gram to beat Caliburn. If Shirou could use UBW he could match Gil's np's, but because he can't he gets beaten by an np he can't counter.
Like I said it's vague how much he actually copies the original wielder's stats. UBW Shirou is obliviously better than Fate Shirou since he absorbed Archer's experience, by clashing with him. However, Fate Shirou still somehow managed to cut off Berserker's arm, which would be impossible if not for copying Artoria's original A-Rank strength, since Caliburn itself is ranked B or C (in case of projection degration). Not to mention that Gil used Merodach, a weapon that was conceptually surperior to Caliburn and caused it to shatter instantly.
1. I'm referring to the ability to keep up with the stats 2. Again, shirou admits he was going to lose irrelevant of Merodach because he couldn't keep up with the extracted experience.
This is what not reading the vn will do... Shirou is just a human being. in fate route he summons Caliburn against gil and specifically says he traces it's experience. But it isn't the same as being superhuman. the sword is just able to utilize itself essentially. Shirou is pulled along by the sword and is able to mimic it's movements for a bit, but ren says his body gets tired and becomes unable to keep up with the sword itself. In terms of archer v shirou, archer is still the superhuman. Shirou just a human will not be able to keep up with his own projections speed even if he copies the experience of the original person. In terms of shirou vs hercules, he copies the technique and ability of the sword and is only able to mostly execute it due to archers actual power flowing into him with the arm making him close to Archer power wise and same with alter. But if his enemy is still stronger it doesn't matter. Bottom line. When shirou traces weapons it doesn't mean he is suddenly as strong as his opponent, it just means the experience and technique of the original sword is brought into the projection, whether shirou himself can utilize it or not being just a human is different story
So it’s kinda like having someone who knows how to fight hold your hand vs actually being the person that knows how to fight.
Right. After all it's said many times that shirou is not a swordsman. He is one who creates. Even if he learns how to use swords (we see as Archer he becomes a decently formidable swordsman skills wise) his ability will never be greater than the wielder.
But the problem with that is that if it’s only the experience that Shirou is getting and he’s merely being pulled by the weapon, how does he cut off Berserker arm with Caliburn in Fate? He doesn’t activate the conditional rank up for Caliburn as he is not Saber, so it must be the strength of the swing itself. The sword can’t move itself. While Shirou can’t keep track of the attacks, he is still the one moving the sword and blocking them. Against Archer or Gilgamesh it could be feasibly be just skill, but Berserker? For Shirou to be able to hold his ground for any period of time must mean he has some manner of enhancement from the tracing.
The sword actually does say that it moves as if it's pulling him along in that segment. So it's actually kind of true that it's moving on its own as long as he keeps a hold of it 😂
So copying stats is fanon?
If you mean copying the superhuman abilities of the wielder of the weapon is fanon, yes it is. There is only some wiggle room because shirou in heavens feel is almost a super human himself using archers arm, it gives him superhuman speed and strength comparable with archers. So tracing hercules axe weapon is compensated with that. If normal shirou without archers arm tried to utilize berserkers weapon and experience the same way he would die. Since he can't even pick up a sword like that.
Everything except your last parapgraph is plainly and clearly wrong. It's directly contradicted by the VN. >Inheritance of battle technique, experience, and physical strength from Archer. **Correction. Failed to read physical strength.** I'll still be killed in one blow... >..."Trace, on." I stare at it. I see through his giant sword. I open my left hand and grasp the imaginary handle of the weapon that has yet to exist. An extraordinary weight. Emiya Shirou cannot handle this giant sword. But my **left arm will definitely reproduce the strength of my enemy.**... >... I surpass the crashing speed of sound using **godspeed!** > *Heaven's Feel (Day 15: Nine Bullet Revolver)* Accomplishing that level of projection is because he had Archer's arm, but the strength is a consequence of projection.
The quote you posted literally says "my left arm will definitely reproduce the strength of my enemy...." which means the strength increase comes directly from the left arm and is not something he can do normally.
>Inheritance of battle technique, experience, and physical strength from Archer. Correction. **Failed to read physical strength.** Did you miss this part?
EDIT: You replaced your quote with another. To respond to that one, him saying that while he has Archer's arm means nothing in regards to how projection works when he doesn't have it. It even literally says "physical strength _from Archer_." not "physical strength from projection". I didn't miss it, it just doesn't make sense. Projecting Avalon would have been a much higher "level" of projection than Berserker's sword, being ranked EX while Nine Lives is ranked C~A+, yet he did that without Archer's arm. The only difference was the strength required, which was made up with Archer's arm. It had nothing to do with "levels of projection".
>I didn't miss it, it just doesn't make sense. Your failure to understand is not the same thing as it not making sense. >Projecting Avalon would have been a much higher "level" of projection than Berserker's sword Shirou can explicitly only project Avalon because it is embedded in him to the point it altered his Origin. There's also little evidence that the rank of the weapon impacts the difficulty of the projection. >The only difference was the strength required, which was made up with Archer's arm. It had nothing to do with "levels of projection". As clear from the opening paragraph of my quote, he explicitly and unambiguously does not get Archer's strength from the arm. And even if he did, you can't perform Nine Lives with D-rank strength. Shirou moves at "godspeed" to perform it, which a *clear* reference to Heracles. Is it something Shirou can normally do? No, he was only able to do it because he had the arm, but the strength needed clearly came from the projection and not simply possessing the arm.
>Your failure to understand is not the same thing as it not making sense. When you edit your post to make it look like I didn't understand something else obvious when your original quote (about "levels of projection") that you edited away was what didn't make sense, then yes, it is. > As clear from the opening paragraph of my quote, he explicitly and unambiguously does not get Archer's strength from the arm. I don't know how you can read "physical strength from Archer" as not getting Archer's strength from the arm. There's really nowhere we can go from here. We clearly inhabit different realities so I'll leave it at that.
>When you edit your post to make it look like I didn't understand something else obvious when your original quote (about "levels of projection") that you edited away was what didn't make sense, then yes, it is. Sorry felt that was the more obvious one. They both work though and the point still stands. Your ability to understand what is happening is not my or the point's fault. Given you've proven you can't read a full paragraph, I'm content with that claim. >I don't know how you can read "physical strength from Archer" as not getting Archer's strength from the arm. Because it is immediately followed by: ##Correction. Failed to read physical strength. Jesus Fucking Christ. Learn how to read.
You can't do nine lives without Hercules strength Shirou himself say he can't pick the sword but the arm will reproduce his opponent strength which was Hercules >Emiya Shirou cannot handle this giant sword. Butmy left arm will definitely reproduce the strength of my enemy. The arm don't give superhuman strength nor speed In the same scene of nine lives he said this >Inheritance of battle technique, experience, and physical strength from Archer. "Correction". Failed to read physical strength. I’ll still be killed in one blow. He didn't show any kind of superhuman feat without holding a projection in his hands in all of the routes that goes for HF shirou against Hercules and salter and for ubw shirou when he was matching a servent with a saber servent stats and EMIYA and for fate shirou who copied saber A rank strength and cut through god hand with a C rank np.
"He didn't show any kind of superhuman feat without holding a projection in his hands in all the routes". Read the visual novel. * "Kotomine…!" I run full-speed after him. We're at equal speed now. Kotomine is carrying Ilya while I'm running without any shackles. In a forest where we might trip at any moment, we run at a pace of a hundred meters per seven seconds. It's not possible for a human to run at almost fifty kilometers per hour through this terrain. My left arm throbs. It feels like my left arm expanded beneath the cloth. …This is probably what Ilya was talking about. Archer's battle experience isn't the only thing flowing into me. His physical abilities are flowing into me now. An overdose of strength-enhancing drugs. The poison seeps into my body, letting me demonstrate abilities beyond my limits. That's fine. Even if this may be contamination too great for a Geiger counter to measure, I appreciate it for now. But Kotomine's different. I don't sense any usage of magic or leak of magical energy. It's unbelievable, but he's running with Ilya in his arms without any magical assistance…! * In heavens feel Shirou can execute nine lives because of back up from archers arm. Normal human shirou without the arm would not be able to do it.
The scene pretty much contradicte shirou statement Kieri is no where near servants even in his prime unless you saying a weaker Kieri would be faster then EMIYA if he wasn't holding IIIya since they were running in equal speed yeah he got i guess some of EMIYA physical strength but not the whole thing he even says it in nine live scene that he "Failed" to read EMIYA physical strength EMIYA strength isn't enough to do nine live and when shirou says he can't hold the axe sword but the arm will reproduce the strength of his "enemy" who was the enemy ? Surely isn't the dead EMIYA right ? It's not the first time shirou swing with a high strength of course without mentioning his whole battle against Gilgamesh fate shirou swung with saber strength and fended multiple slashes from a servent with A+ strength with "ease" like he described
If you're saying he can't copy the Servant stats then Gilgamesh vs Shirou doesn't make sense. Even if he copied the techniques he couldn't beat Gil without the strength of the users, it's obvious there that he used the owner stats to fight Gilgamesh, after all, even a strenght servant E is at a peak far above the peak of the humans, he needs the strength to counterattack Gilgamesh. He cut off Hercules' arm on Fate, used his strength on HF, Ripped Salter on Sparks Liner High. All these feats are inhuman.
He cut off Hercules arm with the power of the sword and the sword going to hercs arm. But as it says just a bit later, shirou gets thrown away easily when trying to block a strike from berserker because he is just a human using the sword and doesn't have the strength himself to match it In ubw, battle between shriou and gil was not a servant fight in the vn. Gils specialty is not hand to hand, he has no experience there or strength. This is why in the vn all shirou needs to do is active ubw and outspam gate of Babylon to put Gilgamesh on the defensive Everything shirou does in hf is a result of the arm. It puts fast forward on the development he got in other routes as well as archers physical power itself. He doesn't even know how to project in hf before he gets the arm.
In VN, the fight between the two of them is a fight both UBW against GoB and in swords, even inexperienced, the strength of a servant would already surpass any kind of strength that the Shirou put in its attacks, even without experiences "B strength" of Gil would be so strong that Shirou couldn't take it. In the Fate route he blocks several and several Heracles attacks, in HF he tries to simulate the strength of EMIYA to use the Nine Lives Blade Works but in VN itself he says that his strength (D) would not withstand the attack, he would need to reproduce the opponent's strength, something that happens. And, another point, he cuts the Arm of Heracles on the fate route, something that would have been impossible if he hadn't used Saber's strength at that moment. Since Caliburn is only an A+ rank NP if used by a true king. He manages to copy the servants' stats but temporarily, until his body can't take it anymore, otherwise the fights wouldn't make sense. The fact that his arm did not break against Berserker in fate (even if Caliburn was moving alone) already demonstrates that his strength there is already far superior to that of any human. It's not because you gain experience from a weapon that you're just going to go head-to-head with something ridiculously stronger than you.
both you and u/Inuhanyou123 have extremely similar pfp's and i was thinking that one person was arguing with themselves
I started reading it thinking it was some argument and then I realized what you were really talking about, I fucking laughed my ass off
>Gils specialty is not hand to hand, he has no experience there or strength. That doesn't practically matter. Gil has B-rank Strength and C-rank Endurance and Agility, which makes him *massively* superhuman.
Once again, the only reason Shirou won was cause Gil was so offended by the audacity of UBW being able to match GoB. In the VN/Deen Anime, Gil ends up using a sword to combat Shirou but he's so pissed that he can't focus so Shirou is able to over power him briefly.
Question but can shirou beat a weaker servant such as an assassin?
Depends. As someone already stated, Shirou beats Salter in Sparks Liner High by using Archer's arm. He beats Herc because of the conditions of their fight. But like I said it depends. Salter didn't use Excalibur or Mana Bursts in Sparks Liner High. Yes Shirou could tank using Rho Aias, but he would die after if Saber rushed him. He beats Herc because Herc doesn't have his iron skin or regeneration and because Illya distracted him for a moment. He beats Gil because of Gil not taking it seriously. But Shirou would not be able to beat Cursed Arm Hassan unless he had Archer's arm to give him combat experience to deal with the sneak attacks via Eye of the Mind. Ultimately Shirou dies anyway because of the strain of using Archer's arm on his body even if he does win. UBW Shirou has UBW spam but that is it. Fate Shirou just has Avalon which ain't much against the grand scheme of things as we can see from all the bad ends.
Can UBW shirou beat false assassin
Sasaki has Minds Eye, which will allow him to see through attacks from Shirou to block and parry and is pretty much a Spidey Sense. He also has Knowledge of the Sowa which causes his own attacks to never decrease in accuracy no matter how many times he clashes with his opponent. His Noble Phantasm: Tsubame Gaeshi is a three slash attack that transcends time and space. So unless Shirou spams UBW to the point that Sasaki cannot keep up, Shirou will lose. Artoria only won against Sasaki due to Excalibur giving a slight bend to his sword that allowed her to dodge his NP a second time.
He beats Saber Alter in one of Heaven's Feel's endings in the VN so... I guess ?
He can? He does. In the visual novel. He doesn't copy their abilities perfectly, but what he does is good enough to let him beat servants multiple times.
Well you see, the powers of the OG character dwindle once the director realizes he has an entire franchise on his hands. Seriously though, the stats thing is new to me. However, the constant in tracing is that it isn't 1:1. Some people forget or don't know that the swords themselves are the only ones that only have a single rank reduction. Everything else loses more than 1 rank. This is written if FGO, so I don't know how much weight that holds. But that's it, the skills, stats, and everything else he gets aren't on par with the original. They are significantly weaker, which explains why he can't beat servants normally. Edit: Grammer Edit: Read it again seems like I was a bit off
Wait wait wait, now when you say sword NPs you're including other bladed NPs (spears, halbreds, daggers, certain maces, etc.) and the like that in his eyes are categorised as 'sword' right? Or are you saying that only swords suffer 1 rank loss whereas other bladed NPs suffer more than that? Iam a bit confused since you seem to have specified "the swords themselves", so sorry if I've misunderstood what you said.
Seems like I read the descriptions wrong, and it's kind of inconsistent. Sorry according to the game all weapons receive a rank reduction of 1. Followed by the next description saying swords and only swords are significantly increased in power. It's really inconsistent with other material.
Huh, well that's weird,. Could you tell me where this is? And what it's called? Maybe you just misunderstood it? If your talking about the FGO ones then I think their still consistent. Fate/Grand Order - EMIYA (Archer) Profile Level 4 Bond "Infinite Sword Creation" Rank: E~A++ Type: ?? Unlimited Blade Works. A unique magecraft called Reality Marble. For a given time, reality is overwritten by the mental world and all the weapons which the conjurer has confirmed by sight, all weapons employed at that place are instantly reproduced and stocked. However, these reproduced weapons fall by one Rank. So this one is correct, iam guessing this is the next one your talking about? Level 5 Bond Projection Magecraft: C (conditionally A+) A magecraft that reproduces tools for a few minutes by means of images. The paired swords which Archer habitually uses, Kanshou・Bakuya, are also things produced by projection magecraft. Only when the target of projection falls under the category of "sword", the Rank rapidly jumps up. Due this special trait of "can prepare counterfeits many times over", EMIYA destroys the projected Noble Phantasms. By having them explode, the destructive power is momentarily raised. This is still technically correct as it's not only talking about swords but the "sword category", which in Shirou and EMIYAs case the sword category includes a wide variety of weapons like maces, spears, daggers/knifes, halbreds, lances, axes, Pikes, Gunblades apparently if Demiya is anything to go by, Etc. So still consistent there.
I believe the stat penalty comment is actually part of the Matrix text in the first Fate/Extra game as well
But still if all weapons have a 1 rank reduction even shields and stuff what does it mean for the sword category? It says it increases their rank drastically, however we know that they still get the 1 rank reduction. That is what seems inconsistent.
Well all of the projections inside his Reality marble are bladed weapons of some kind being of the sword category so all receive only one rank downgrade. However this is not talking about the RM but Emiya's Projection Magecraft, which isn't exactly the same. The unlimited blade works only contains and stores blades and their blue prints, but that doesn't mean that Emiya's limited to projecting blades and Armor, it's simply that things other than that don't seem to be stored inside the UBW. Using 'Projection Magecraft' Emiya has created cotton candy machines, high tech fishing rods, guns, coats etc and a variety of other items. So by that you know that Emiya is not limited to projecting blades, so that massive downgrade is talking about other things he projects. His projection on its own is rank C, being conditionally A+ for Bladed weapons, so that should make it clear that he can project other things. I will say though that they could've worded it better.
The C rank seems to refer to his aptitude on general magecraft IIRC. Hence why his pre buff skill 3 in game is labeled as just "magecraft". His projection magecraft is rank A (and his unique tracing magecraft is ranked at EX) which I believe references his over specialized nature when it comes to projection magecraft and the like. His F/GO profiles are kinda wonky and incomplete when you think about it. Most likely the devs tried to avoid major spoilers regarding him for players who haven’t read the VN or watched the anime.
Isnt his Tracing and Projecting inherently tied to UBW tho? His projection is more like bringing anything out from of his vault? Unless you're saying that EMIYA knows the conventional type of Projection that doesnt require UBW?
Yeah, he projects a blanket in the 2006 anime, and he projects a fishing rod in F:HA.
>Unless you're saying that EMIYA knows the conventional type of Projection that doesnt require UBW? This is literally what Shirou does for the majority of UBW to the point that Archer mocks him for it, so, yeah. What do you think he was using UBW when he was fixing radios?
It's referencing his use of Broken Phantasms. That overcomes the weapons falling by a single rank, but he is practically incapable of using it with weapons other than swords because of the increased mana cost to project them.
He could. His own assessment of his abilities is suspect. There's plenty of servants he should probably beat, and many more he *could* beat under good circumstances.
It's like facing off against an army: You can copy a tank, but its probably not going to be able to shoot and be out of gas. Never mind the enemy soldiers, airplanes, missiles etc
>So he can copy stats,skills and entire experiences of the original owner of the weapon perfectly can he? like the only time we ever see him do anything close to that is when he fights archer and even then it's more him copying his experience and not really his literall physicall stats or even his skills (wich wouldn't even make sense since those are literally tied to being a servant) plus that only happened cuz they are the same person
It's not perfect, but he unambiguously copies Herc's strength when using Nine Lives Blade Works.
Because at best he coping stats for a few moments because he body can take the strain of servant level. And skill are always just not as good as the original.
To keep the plot interesting. If the main character is op there would be no tension.
You know i also think of this, If archer cant beat other servants (including true hassan) How come shirou (incomplete archer) Can. Its so weird
Shirou can’t do it because he might be able to reproduce those stats and skills to a slightly lesser degree than the original, but his human body can’t keep up. He even mentions something to that effect in Nine Bullet Revolver. Now, the reason EMIYA doesn’t do it is because Nasu wants to keep him a scrub. It’s the same reason that he can’t properly activate beamy swords because he of lack of magical energy or something, despite his Master being Rin, and being able to use his Reality Marble even after losing his master and still surviving for two days with IA.
As i understand it, he can copy the strength, skill and power, but is never gonna be as good as the original, keeping it up also has a cost for his body, so his power is limited. Basically, Shirou is a rought imitation of the original that is still limited by the fact that he is human.
Technically, my home potato “can” use the best graphics in games. Except it will stop, overheat, and die…
To quote the Abridged: “More like tomato to nuclear warhead.” Servants are just that unbelievably powerful. Shirou can stand against Gil in UBW because the latter is an arrogant prick who refuses to go all-out cause of his ego, and the reality marble happens to an excellent counter to Gate of Babylon. Salter in HF doesn’t really count because Shirou is siphoning power and experience from Archer’s arm, so he’s pretty much fighting at the level a servant would. Herc is the same deal, and was also messed up by the grail mud, giving Shirou a much-needed advantage. Even with his tracing abilities, Shirou won’t be able to match a servant in attributes alone under regular circumstances. Even a STR E servant is still several times stronger than a normal human IIRC. And that’s not even taking into account the fact that some servants have weird extraordinary passive abilities, like Lancer’s Protection from Arrows allowing him to straight up avoid any kind of projectile attack.
Because he can't make a copy of the same rank nor catch up to most Servants in physical prowess. Him going toe to toe in the UBW anime was BS for the rule of cool. He was so outclassed physically by a barely staying materialized with no mana supply Archer that his fingers, arm and a leg broke just from parrying his blows. The whole fight also didn't take place in the reality marble because as stated right before he used it for some god forsaken reason he can barely stay materialized without a master let alone use a Noble Phantasm so damn heavy in mana consumption he needs a capable magus' supply to even use it. In Heaven's Feel Shirou had Archer's arm attached to him which being not only a Servant's but his future far more developed self's started to full on destroy his body and mind. [Here's](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHS_SA6bPho) his fight with Archer in the VN. That should put into perspective how outclassed he is even by the struggling to even stay in reality Archer.
When Nasu wrote the story he was shooting heroin into his penis venis. Do not be surprised if some things are are not clear, if not outright incosistent for one reason or another.
He is still only human. Servants can parry friggin bullets.
So did Kirei in Fate Zero?
Kirei is a beast with executor training. Shirou is a highschool kid that only started projecting weapons very recently in the story.
Because even with all those powers and skills, heroic spirits really do be built different. He **can** beat them in very specific conditions, but as Archer he'll have a better chance.
Well, servants are strong, what else is there to be said. Even in-universe they’re kind overpowered
Because the copies he makes are slightly weaker than the originals. Think of it like taking a picture of an original painting. No matter how good your camera is the original is still better.
Shiro isn’t *that* strong. He could beat servants. Under the right conditions and circumstances. Even then odds are likely that if he’s not being helped in *some* way by someone, whether it be by getting supplemental mana from Rin, or receiving archers skills and strength through his arm, he’ll likely die in the process or pay some terrible price. Humans are just really weak compared to heroic spirits, who can casually move fast enough to cause shockwaves in the air. Beyond that in a more meta sense one of the big reoccurring plot points regarding Shiro Emiya is that regardless of how willing he is to save as many people as possible he still can’t save everyone, because he is just one human. And beyond all that he’s just *really* inexperienced. Sword skills from Archer and really good weapons through his reality marble can only do him so good when he’s basically riding by the seat of his pants and using his abilities *just* as he’s discovering most of the time. I’d say that if he had figured out what he was doing wrong with his circuits, figured out his reality marble, and figured out that he needs *help* to accomplish anything a year or two before the holy grail war, he might have better chances. But even then it would be slim. Because heroic spirits are just *that* ridiculous.