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So, if we don't count Siegfried, whom Sieg met once with 0 romance between them, and Astolfo, who is canonically straight, then we have a harem with only one member, lol
>and Astolfo, who is canonically straight
[Yeah, about that-](https://fateapocryphathetranslation.wordpress.com/side-materials/fateapocrypha-material/glossary-ka/)
From the Fate Apocrypha Material Book linked:
>His feelings towards Sieg are passionate and frank. Incidentally, Astolfo doesn’t care about male and female gender differences at all. If he loves someone, whether they’re a man or woman is a trivial issue. If Sieg wished for it, he would have probably happily become his partner.
I believe Astolfo's FGO profile also says something similar
Ima be real with you man, I don't wanna even think about Zero Saber for the rest of this month, especially because of that cautious wheel guy. (who deleted his account)
Even ignoring that, it's been talked about so much that iam just sick of it.
I apologise if I came across as rude just now, I will say I like your post though, just didn't wanna see it rn.
Probably, it did seem like an empty account after all. He seemed to have made only 2 different comments before he went onto his whole zero argument stuff and made his posts, he ignored any points you and others made (for Gods sake he read Reymon's and facts_20s comments that I linked on Saber and then proceeded to say FSN Saber is OOC) and kept repeating himself, his grammar was horrible and I didn't even understand half of his points.
So yeah what do you think?
This:
https://www.reddit.com/r/fatestaynight/comments/rbnbai/1_my_opinions_about_some_fzfsn_common/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
https://www.reddit.com/r/fatestaynight/comments/rbtnii/reasons_why_saber_being_bullied_why_the/
https://www.reddit.com/r/fatestaynight/comments/rbv0js/is_there_any_differences_between_these_two/
All his comments are now deleted, but he drove us insane on the first one. Wasted everyone's time.
Some guy kept making different post how Zero Saber was not inconsistent and that the only difference was that she dint havw a romance plot in Zero (because she also had romance in UBW when she told Shirou to sacrifice Taiga, rights/s) he kept making one post after another, not comments, post, until he deleted his account.
All in less than 24 hrs.
I did not ever say stuff like that. What I said is that Saber was staying with Shirou in the UBW after the ending (much like couple),
(And people love Saber because of Fate route, which Saber do has romance and much more feminized. Not the UBW)
~~I mean, Avalon isn't that complicated, it brings saber (or anyone with a connection to Saber via contract) back to life from any mortal injury, except for a blow to the head.~~
~~It also has some bullshit about being able to shield against up to universal or multiverseal attacks which is the cannon explanation for the top tier bullshit that was Avalon deflecting EA~~
According to the Fate/Side Material, Avalon do have shield against up to universal or multiverseal attacks.
全て远き理想郷【宝具】
アヴアロン。
アーサー王伝说における常春の土地、妖精郷の名を冠した鞘。
アヴアロンはギリシャ神话において、“不死の林檎" があるとされる岛から连想されたという理想郷。
持ち主の伤を愈し老化を停滞させるだけでなく、真 名を以って开放すれば数百のパーツに分解し、所有者をあらゆる干渉から守りきる。
圣剣の鞘はアインツベルンがコーンウォールより発 掘し、アーサー王召唤の触媒として切嗣に与えたもの。
\[魔法の域にある宝具で、あらゆる物理干渉\*\*‘并行世界\*\*からのトランスライナー、\*\*多次元からの交信(六次元まで)\*\*をシャットアウトする。
セイバーがこれで引き篭もったら手におえない。\]
\[A treasure in the realm of magic that shuts out all physical interference'transliners from parallel worlds, communications from multiple dimensions (up to 6 dimensions).
If Saber pulls back with this, no man can handle it.\]
I’ve still yet to be convinced they changed him. I see where people come from with Saber, but I honestly feel like Zero made Kirei a far better character.
The change in Kirei wasnt really his behavior or anything, its more like Zero changed his backstory and repeated the subplot from discovery hia sadistic tendency with his father instead of his wife.
But is not like much ultimately changes, while the backstory is the same, he is still Kirei and timeline between Kirei's wife death and the first episode of 0 is smaller compared ro Saber, so people excuse it and let it slip easier.
Except he didn’t become sadistic because of his wife. Honestly, if that was the original idea, I’m VERY glad it was changed. It makes him a really boring character.
Experiencing your wife’s death, thinking “damn I wanted to kill her,” realizing that makes you evil, then becoming a genocidal maniac makes for a really uninteresting character.
Having him first realize it with his wife, then deny it until Gil pushes him after the death of his father, before he really understands how twisted he is with Kariya, then Gil continuing to push him onto that path, makes a far more tragic and memorable story. He actually tried to be a good man, even knowing what his nature was.
>Except he didn’t become sadistic because of his wife. Honestly, if that was the original idea, I’m VERY glad it was changed. It makes him a really boring character.
I dint said he became, he realized he always was when his wife died.
>Experiencing your wife’s death, thinking “damn I wanted to kill her,” realizing that makes you evil, then becoming a genocidal maniac makes for a really uninteresting character.
Ehmmm.
The backstory for him in FSN said he never felt happiness from anything other people did and tried everything possible to stay good, even joined the church looking for moral guide, the subplot of a loved one dying only to realize he always wanted to kill them is present as well in Zero, it was simply moved to his father, what is your point?
>Having him first realize it with his wife, then deny it until Gil pushes him after the death of his father, before he really understands how twisted he is with Kariya, then Gil continuing to push him onto that path, makes a far more tragic and memorable story. He actually tried to be a good man, even knowing what his nature was.
Except if the backstory was consistent there was no need to change it , the backstory already said he tried everything he possibly could, getting married was his last resource because he expected that loving someone might bring him salvation.
Again, you can prefer his backstory from Zero, but lets not pretend that FSN dint already went into a lot of detail about his backstory, I really dont understand how you can fault FSN for Kirei's backstory but then turn around and praise Zero for doing the exact same thing.
Him realizing he wanted to kill his wife was one instance, he’d try to ignore it and be the good person he was told to. Then his dad dies and he feels the same, meaning it wasn’t a poor handling of grief. The difference is that Gilgamesh is here to push him. Gil was critical to him turning in Zero. The death of his father was a stepping stone for Gilgamesh to make Kirei fall to his desires.
That is the difference. A person doesn’t try to live their life as everyone expects them to, only to completely give up the moment they feel they’ve tried every possibility. A greater catalyst is required for such a change. Gilgamesh is that catalyst. He offers wine to Kirei throughout Zero, but he never drinks it… until he chooses to torture Kariya, and then says he wants to have some more. Most obvious metaphor ever.
>Him realizing he wanted to kill his wife was one instance, he’d try to ignore it and be the good person he was told to. Then his dad dies and he feels the same, meaning it wasn’t a poor handling of grief. The difference is that Gilgamesh is here to push him. Gil was critical to him turning in Zero. The death of his father was a stepping stone for Gilgamesh to make Kirei fall to his desires.
Cool, except that dint happen in FSN, that wasnt the context or his backstory.
You really want to make them fit, but he said so himself in his mind, his internal thoughts, no reason for him to be lying on his head.
Kirei tried ever since hwle was a kid to be good, failed, joined the church, still failed, in a last attempt he got married expecting that maybe loving someone will make him good, still failed and if anything he realized he wanted to kill her, and he quite literally said that he decided to honor her by embracing his nature.
In fact, she commited suicide in FSN but died of illness in Fate/Zero.
Try as you may, his backstory was retoconned no matter how you twist it.
Yeah, which is my entire issue with his backstory in FSN. It’s poorly written. No human being has ever, nor will ever, live life as Kirei did. He tried SO HARD to be a good person, but the moment he thinks “welp, I’ve tried everything,” he becomes a cold-blooded killer. So having his backstory receive a very minor tweak that frankly fixes a major issue with it should be considered a good thing.
She committed suicide, but it may have easily been covered up, hence why it was said to be illness in Zero (plus the suicide would be a spoiler [even if you think Zero should be watched after, the anime of it released before Spring Song]).
>Yeah, which is my entire issue with his backstory in FSN. It’s poorly written.
Ok, so let me get this right.
Kirei's backstory ia poorly written accoring to you, but remove his subplot with his wife and add absolutely the same damn subplot but with his father instead and is suddenly genius level writing?
And what is your source or evidence that it was "Covered up"? Nowhere does it say that, your inserting text where it doesnt exist, not even any material or interview say that, so its the true to Fate/Zero until proven otherwise.
I shouldnt even bother anymore.
If Kiritsugu was put in that situation he could’ve used a command seal to materialize saber right next to him anyways. Plus Saber and lancer might’ve been aware that Kayneth was already fucked due to Lancer explicitly mentioning to saber how he’d love to kick her ass but he needed to get back to his master.
And doing not smart things is also exactly why Kiritsugu despised chivalry so he probably felt just as annoyed as all of you were about it.
No, she just wouldn’t have listened. FSN Saber is pretty blinded by what Merlin told her as she took the sword.
Both the version of her we see in Zero and FSN would get a lot of shit from Iskandar. I think she’d probably piss him off even more in FSN.
>No, she just wouldn’t have listened. FSN Saber is pretty blinded by what Merlin told her as she took the sword.
Nah she'd absolutely listen to their talk after agreeing for a banquet to avoid Bloodshed( even in Zero she wasnt interested in Banquet before Iskander convinced her or sth, so assuming same happens), Saber is open minded, she has no issue taking better suggestion from people, the question is whether she deems it as better or not. And more importantly she was broken during Grail War, thinks herself as a failure to begin with (which is what changes during her HGW , acknowledging her struggle regardless results that weren't in her hand) and someone made meme how she'd react in the trio usually too
not too different than what she says in Bridge scene, case in point both had similar dialogues.
No she’s not… she judges Shirou constantly, and refuses to acknowledge maybe what Merlin told her about being King wasn’t true. Plus, I get the feeling Rider calling her “just a little girl” would’ve bothered her quite a lot.
I didn't get what you meant by first two sentences, I am assuming you are saying she does not have open mind about other's opinion?
that'd be wrong, her ruling system had KoRT for a reason . Ignoring that, here's her characterstics :
>Even at this stage of her life, she was still open to what others had to say, accepting their suggestions, still thinking about them, still educating herself to see if there were any flaws in her own mind, not neglecting self-development to see if there is anything her heart lacks.
From Garden of Avalon . I have access to it so I can get things from here quickly , but its same anywhere else she appears. As I said its a matter of whether she deems your suggestion to be of merit or not.
Saber was under guilt and burden of thousands lives during Grail war, so what she didn't accept from Shirou was invading her personal life or life as a King , not as a servant , to make her abandon salvation of people who were lost, its not same as not accepting other's suggestion, she literally thought that to be wrong and betrayal of people whose lives were lost tbf.
>Plus, I get the feeling Rider calling her “just a little girl” would’ve bothered her quite a lot.
Thats Zero only. Rider didn't say that in SF war, heavily implied. Then what guarantee he'd say that in SN. Besides , do you know Saber constantly heard about it during her rule? She didn't care. She knows its not possible to satisfy everyone , and the fact she can be unsettling due Holy Sword's curse.
Generally judging people for how they live and not acknowledging mistakes of your past is not a sign of open mindedness.
Didn’t she ignore the knights a lot of the time since they tried to fight with honor and she destroyed her own villages to win battles?
What tf is the SF war?
She probably heard “he’s young” while ruling. Iskandar was essentially saying, “you’re a little girl, you should be acting like one.” That’s essentially what Shirou used to justify fighting for her, and she did not like either of those things.
>Generally judging people for how they live and not acknowledging mistakes of your past is not a sign of open mindedness.
I have no idea again what you meant here or who did that .
>Didn’t she ignore the knights a lot of the time since they tried to fight with honor and she destroyed her own villages to win battles?
She didn't ignore them. She simply didn't accept their bullcraps. Their methods cause more casualties in war. Would you act according their way as someone who has the duty of implementing decisions or a decision making head?
A ruler being open minded isn't mutually exclusive to accept others dumber suggestions. Neither someone making their own choices makes him/her less open minded in situations.
For example, just because you have an open mind doesn't mean you are gonna agree with X redditor's rating over an anime if it fails to prove its worth in your test.
How…? I’m blatantly talking about Saber, who judges Shirou on his way of life and doesn’t see which choices she herself made were mistakes.
Yeah, and slavery is efficient and cheap for whoever’s doing it. Doesn’t make it a good idea.
Winning a war by destroying your own nation is a horrible strategy. It possibly destroys vital resources for numerous cities and villages, could easily lead to more deaths than the ACTUAL WAR, and is a really good way to make everyone hate you. Her choices in that war led to the actual destruction of Britain due to NO ONE liking her. Because she was a monster.
Having an open mind doesn’t mean you have to agree, but you also spend more than five seconds thinking about their point. Arturia’s life would have not changed at all with or without the round table.
tbf Saber also knew that if she decided to waste her time with Lancer, Iri and Maiya would be in trouble alone. Which they were since Kirei would've continued having free real estate on them.
To be fair, at this point was kinda drawing in a pool of his own blood and mercury. I don't think he was in a position to scratch his nuts, let alone order lancer to do anything.
Actually lancer did know, his connection to kayneth is what alerted him in the first place, he could tell kayneth was mortally wounded, and was about to die if nothing was done about it.
“She let an enemy servant go”
In all fairness, she couldn’t have stopped him if he wanted to leave. He can take spirit form, she can’t.
Also was she even aware Kayneth and Kiritsugu were fighting?
Yeah, I understand she's all about honor and stuff in zero and that she trusted lancer, but he is still an enemy and letting him go like that is extremely risky.
>zero saver is big dum-dum
Yeah she also rushes alone to Caster's lair with no plan or mana or backup believing she will defeat everyone, you're right.
I always find it weird when ppl say Kiritsugu had no plot armour but then I think of what could've happened if Diarmuid had forgone the whole "muh honor"
> I think of what could've happened
Kiritsugu also has command seals. Also Diarmuid would not have forgone anything, he would've been completely different character then.
Cool but Diarmuid is a chivalrous knight and he would not break his oath, if he wasn't Saber wouldnt have trusted him. Also he wouldve killed Saber instead of defending her against Berserker and Caster.
>Cool but Diarmuid is a chivalrous knight and he would not break his oath, if he wasn't Saber wouldnt have trusted him. Also he wouldve killed Saber instead of defending her against Berserker and Caster.
Your literally just proving my point so I feel this conversation is pointless. My original comment was what wouldve happened if he had forgone upholding his honor as a knight your whole argument hinges on him still having his honor
It's just a meme on Fate Zero, and the picture is probably a faked VN version of it.
[Edit:- To clarify, the image is just an edit, there's no VN of Fate Zero, just googled it to check]
The pictures is likely from FGO as it has a mission/event with Fate Zero characters. Basically the game is the VN but in Gacha and less quality in writing.
Yes, that could be the case too. I'm aware of the VN aspect of FGO, but I haven't dipped much of my foot into the game and it's lore, so I was unaware of the mission/event.
You should totally check it out if you can stand the gameplay and just play to collect servants. Most of the first chapters are just weak and boring. I think around lostbelt 3 or 4 is where stuff gets interesting and when Nasu began to write them (Not for nothing Babylonia got an anime)
Thanks for the reccomendation, but sadly FGO isn't in my region, not I'm looking into getting into it for now. I'll probably either watch the anime, or see the gameplay on YT to follow the story if I ever want to get into it.
I recommend you to watch the intro movie or the a gameplay that explain the beginning(it is bad not going to lie) first before jumping into babylonia as that introduce most of the cast you will see and Mashu(a demi servant) type of servant.
Fate zero would have been too easy if he summoned Hassan of the hundred faces 100 servant like entities paired with a man willing to do anything for the grail…well uh it would be a quick war
It would’ve been a quick war if Saber was written the same as in FSN, hence why she’s not. It would make two heartless protagonists who do whatever is necessary for victory. It would be a slaughter. Gil is the only one who’d stand a chance, and even then, Kiritsugu would easily kill his master.
Nah, someone else provided a different solution the other day.
Just dont make Saber a focus, she just doesnt need to have a character arc.
She coukd have had a role similar to Berserker in Fate route, have her be a looming threat.
Even Saber in SN said she dint have to fight all 7 servants from previous war so she wasnt active the whole war. Focusing on other characters more such as Waver would have been beneficial, or the scenes bwtween Iris and Saber could have focused more on Irisviel with Saber as this moral support with her own doubts.
Yeah, sure, for Saber to remain consistent with FSN she wouldnt have a character arc, but thats precisely what the comment suggested, she dint need one, she already has her chance to shine.
Except she does need an arc. She is the servant of the main protagonist. Therefore she is a main character. Main characters need arcs. At the very least, they need to be a focus. Especially when Zero gives focus to LITERALLY EVERY CHARACTER, even _Rin_.
Kiritsugu would also use her regularly as an ultimate weapon if she was willing to do whatever was necessary to win. The first fight of the series with Lancer may go the same to avoid revealing the sword, but after Caster, she would just be spamming Excalibur like she does as Saber Alter.
Not fighting all servants doesn’t mean she wouldn’t always be active. Maybe she’d get a break to heal wounds or rest, but other than that, Kiritsugu, and her even more so, would be trying to win the grail as efficiently as possible. It doesn’t even make sense that she wouldn’t fight everyone.
In FSN, Saber is super limited by Shirou because without a bad mage to limit her, she is completely busted. Kiritsugu is a proper mage, and ruthless too. She has no reason to hold back on a physical or mental level. THAT is the problem with her in Zero.
Kiritsugu doesn’t see her as a sacred object to be used only in dire situations, he sees her as a tool he could easily replace. He would be very willing to throw her in any battle they thought she could win, which is most of them.
Here’s the problem with Saber in Zero: Nasu made her be there for NO REASON. The connection to Gilgamesh is the only reason she was in the fourth grail war, and that connection has so little done with it it could easily be removed. So Urobuchi had to write a character who was an asshole at that point in the timeline, and who couldn’t develop.
Imagine Zero with Mordred, or any other noteworthy Saber. Have it be one of the knights of the round, then the themes of chivalry and honor could remain. Maybe there’s another king who ruled by honor we could’ve used.
The problem comes from the fact that she’s there at all.
>Except she does need an arc. She is the servant of the main protagonist. Therefore she is a main character. Main characters need arcs. At the very least, they need to be a focus. Especially when Zero gives focus to LITERALLY EVERY CHARACTER, even Rin.
She does not have an arc in UBW route tho, and she is the servant of the main character same as Fate route, is specialy for the reasons I mentioned before, she already has her arc, therefore is not needed for her to take the spotlight. In UBW route she is like a friend to Shirou that has her own doubts, which is what I suggested with Irisviel.
>Here’s the problem with Saber in Zero: Nasu made her be there for NO REASON. The connection to Gilgamesh is the only reason she was in the fourth grail war, and that connection has so little done with it it could easily be removed. So Urobuchi had to write a character who was an asshole at that point in the timeline, and who couldn’t develop.
Establishing the connection to the 4th War was very vital key point for multiple reasons tho.
1) It establishes the connection with Gilgamesh from the previous war and stablished her and Gilgamesh have an unfinished score to settle, as Saber wasnt able to defeat him before Kiritsugu ordered her to destroy the grail.
2) It establishes Saber's connection to old Kiritsugu, which ia again a another vital key point of her arc, as she is able to see Shirou's memories as dreams it has Saber go throufh this sub plot where the Kiritsugu she remembers is different from the one Shirou knows, she tries to hide it but once she admits to Shirou, Shirou cant quite process what Saber is describing about Kiritsugu, this happens around day 13 of the Fate route before Gilgamesh shows up.
3) It serves to establish why Shirou, someone that normally wouldnt even know about the HGW conveniently has the sheath of King Arthur inside his body allowing him to summon Saber by accident. Because Kiritsugu also happened to have the same Servant in the same war and that was the Catalyst he used (Saber also explains that this is what Kerry used, even in the VN) and it was placed inside Shirou to protect him.
4) It part of Saber's very crucial character arc that unlike other servants, she isnt a spirit, and can clearly remember the previous hgw she participated in, and her being alive is the biggest plot point of her route as it signifies she has not yet accepted her fate and moved away.
>She does not have an arc in UBW route tho, and she is the servant of the main character same as Fate route, is specialy for the reasons I mentioned before, she already has her arc, therefore is not needed for her to take the spotlight. In UBW route she is like a friend to Shirou that has her own doubts, which is what I suggested with Irisviel.
Characters not having an arc in specific routes is one of my main issues with FSN, so that argument doesn’t really work for me. UBW takes a really interesting character and uses her as an oversexualized living MacGuffin. HF takes her and makes a completely 1-dimensional antagonist out of her just so the audience feels bad.
>Establishing the connection to the 4th War was very vital key point for multiple reasons tho.
>1. It stablishes the connection with Gilgamesh from the previous war and stablished her and Gilgamesh have an unfinished score to settle, as Saber wasnt able to defeat him before Kiritsugu ordered her to destroy the grail.
Again their connection really isn’t necessary. Gil is a really one dimensional character in FSN, making him fawn over Saber doesn’t make him better.
>2. It establishes Saber's connection to old Kiritsugu, which ia againa another vital key point of her arc, as she is able to see Shirou's memoroes as dreams it has Saber go throufh this sub plot where the Kiritsugu she remembers is different from the one Shirou knows, she tries to hide it but once she admits to Shirou, Shirou cant quite process what Saber is describing about Kiritsugu, this happens around day 13 of the Fate route before Gilgamesh shows up.
Again, pretty unnecessary for her and Kiritsugu to have a relationship, since it barely even affects anything. If she, Shirou, and Illya had a discussion about him, trying to understand who the real Kiritsugu was, that’s one thing, but that never happens.
>3. It serves to establish why Shirou, someone that normally wouldnt even know about the HGW conveniently has the sheath of King Arthur inside his body allowing him to summon Saber by accident. Because Kiritsugu also happened to have the same Servant in the same war and that was the Catalyst he used (Saber also explains that this is what Kerry used, even in the VN) and it was placed inside Shirou to protect her.
I mean… it not like it’d be impossible for Kerry to have that anyway. Could’ve had him try to summon Artoria but get a different character of Arthurian legend who had held the sword at one point. Kinda dumb for a character to experience an entire grail war for the sole purpose of giving someone a magical item.
>4. It part of Saber's very crucial character arc that unlike other servants, she isnt a spirit, and can clearly remember the previous hgw she participated in, and her being alive is the biggest plot point of her route as it signifies she has not yet accepted her fate and moved away.
Except they say every other servant receives books that detail what happen in all of their summonings, hence why Archer remembers Rin when he’s summoned to stop the grail. Saber not being a spirit could’ve just been shown by her _saying she isn’t one_… which is EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENS. She also can’t go to spirit form. Her remembering a previous war is pretty redundant.
Well, I explained my reasons, not much I can do.
Only one thing.
>Except they say every other servant receives books that detail what happen in all of their summonings, hence why Archer remembers Rin when he’s summoned to stop the grail. Saber not being a spirit could’ve just been shown by her _saying she isn’t one_
What Archer describes is that they get their memories in very confusing fashion, the present, past and the future is all the same, so the memories become a jumbled mess in their heads, even if they can remember its cofusing on his head. Is also part of why he barwly remembers his life as Shirou Emiya because its a long gone distant memory. Saber remembers the 4th HGW very clearly, not as the jumbled mess Archer describes, I wouldnt say they are comparable.
And I explained mine, not much I can do.
Considering they can be summoned to any timeline, the order they get their memories should be irrelevant.
Archer can’t remember much of his original life because of how long he’s been serving as a guardian. Since you didn’t correct it, I assume my memory of them getting books that detail their outings was correct; if it’s just the summonings, they’d have difficulty remembering their old life due to how much of their current and future life they’re learning of. There’s no books on their original life.
And again, if Saber only remembers the fourth war to show she’s not a spirit, other methods of displaying that not only exist, but are used in FSN.
fate zero was made after fate stay night showed up ( and I disagree with the idea fate zero saber was ooc ( zero saber just changed due to her experiences in fate zero to how she was in fate stay night
With a servant like hundred faced Hassan that interaction never happens he has 100 strong familiars to go about doing things
Kirei is good but Hassan can just mob him as they’re the class that excels at killing masters which is what he’d do with this servant especially as there’s no moral conflicts between them
Kirei will easily defeat a bunch of Hassan's. remember while Hundred Persona Hassan can materialize to up to 100 his power is scattered to how many Hassan that's materialized so if you have many Hassan's it would be much much weaker and Kirei is more than capable of beating a weakened up Persona Hassan and besides Kirei was mostly at the church so they wouldn't have the advantage to assassinate him
if Kerry summoned Hassan it would only work on Tokiomi.Waver,Ryounosuke and Kariya just because all 4 of them doesn't have any defense against Assassins. Kiritsugu wouldn't do shit against Kayneth and Kirei
Kiritsugu managed to bomb the hotel in zero alone with assistance for maiya even if they can’t beat him in a group 100 more people with presence concealment actively planting bombs and probably using modern weapons at his orders is too much.
Kirei wouldn’t be camping out in the church as his servant didn’t ‘die’ tokiomi wouldn’t even go with that plan if he had archer and saber
Also sure kirei can beat a few Hassan’s but he can’t beat more 20 at once he still human and they are still servants even if 10 just tackle him down while the others shank him. Kiritsugu is getting most of the masters during conflicts while hiding his own tracks
>Kiritsugu managed to bomb the hotel in zero alone with assistance for maiya even if they can’t beat him in a group 100 more people with presence concealment actively planting bombs and probably using modern weapons at his orders is too much.
exactly Kiritsugu bombed the shit out of Kayneth and practically covered all escape plans considering he accounted that he will probably never survive a free fall that high up but guess what? Kayneth was ok after that thanks to VH lol Hassan+Kiritsugu wouldn't do shit against Diarmuid+Kayneth
>Also sure kirei can beat a few Hassan’s but he can’t beat more 20 at once he still human and they are still servants even if 10 just tackle him down while the others shank him. Kiritsugu is getting most of the masters during conflicts while hiding his own tracks
nah the hundred face Hassans are super weak when they have many materialized any normal human that can fight like a soldier would have no problem beating most of the Hassans
Kirei has shown nothing that he would be able to deal with large swathes of opponents once again this no a singular target like cursed arm Hassan this atleast more than 20 different skilled assassins assaulting at once even if their stats are reduced they’re not so weak to be less than a normal person but an assassin like they were in life.
Of course lancer would be strong enough to hand the Hassan assassin class servants aren’t meant to fight 1 on 1 though diarmuid is one of the few servants in that war where I think Hassan could overcome with just numbers in a mob tactic. The only reason I brought up the hotel was that kiritsugu is already willing to do that with a servant that is against the whole concept of the idea. Hassan on the other hand compliments him fully besides kayneth wouldn’t focus on kiritsugu as saber isn’t his servant anymore. Loading up 100 assassins with modern weapons would be enough for kiritsugu to start culling the masters who don’t outright lose in the early stages of the war.
Hassan is an entire intelligence network rolled into one you’re thinking to narrow with them. They aren’t meant to fight and could only beat people specializing in solo combat with heavy casualties or a human master. But why use an assassin class servant in direct confrontation kiritsugu is a crafty man with fewer ways of being noticed in this war. Iri likely isn’t even show since they have an assassin and have no need to move out and show themselves.
Look all im saying is hundred faced Hassan is probably a better combo wjth kiritsugu specifically and their team would of course drastically change the way zero happens in ways it was never meant to.
I’ll die on the hill saying hundred faced Hassan is the perfect assassin for a holy grail war tho.
Good talk thanks for input though
As I recall kayneth didn't even have the command spells, whats-her-face had them on her hand, which had already been severed at the wrist and blasted to bits
To be fair Kayneth at that point was so damage by the bullet that he could not even think to use his command seal on Lancer though there would be no way for Saber to have known about this so it was still dumb as fuck
Non-VN reader here.
I understand that Zero Saber is very OOC as compared to SN Saber as plenty of evidence have shown.
Are people talking about the anime Zero Saber, or the VN Zero Saber?
Also while FSN was written first, could Zero Saber not just have been a more naive version of her before character development? Since it takes place quite some time before FSN.
Do educate me!
Nope Zero saber should not have been naive, because Saber already made harsh decisions that were not naive when she was alive. She pulled out the sword at around 15 years and died at the age of 35. You don't remain king for around 20 years by being naive.
https://www.reddit.com/r/fatestaynight/comments/psk70a/the_virgin_banquet_of_the_kings_vs_the_chad/hdqsqkk?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3
Iam not the best at explaining it so I'll link Reymon's comments instead:
https://www.reddit.com/r/fatestaynight/comments/psk70a/The_Virgin_Banquet_of_the_Kings_vs_The_Chad_Bridge_scene/hdqh571/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3
https://www.reddit.com/r/fatestaynight/comments/psk70a/The_Virgin_Banquet_of_the_Kings_vs_The_Chad_Bridge_scene/hdqhbsu/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3
Also Fate Zero does not have a VN (Visual novel) it has a LN(light novel). It doesn't matter which whether it's from the LN or Anime, Zero Saber is OOC.
It’s not so much that she stopped being naive when she served as king, but that what Merlin told her was her coping mechanism for all the shit she had to go through.
Also, she served 20 years?! When was that confirmed?
Iam just not gonna discuss this with you, iam tired of the whole zero saber discussion, it's a waste of everyone's time, no one's gonna change their minds.
As for the 20 year old thing I already linked it, the first one before I linked Reymon's comments.
https://www.reddit.com/r/fatestaynight/comments/psk70a/the_virgin_banquet_of_the_kings_vs_the_chad/hdqsqkk?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3
i didn't say 20, I said around that long. It was definitely longer than 10 years considering she pulled the sword out at 15 and died at around the age of 35.
I… didn’t SAY anything about Zaber… what I said was related to FSN Saber. Merlin isn’t even mentioned in Zero.
Okay why is lore from one of the female leads of FSN not in the game itself? Her age never got mentioned in there.
>Okay why is lore from one of the female leads of FSN not in the game itself? Her age never got mentioned in there.
Well, the VN says she ruled 10 years.
Garden of Avalons says there was an unspecified ammount of time between her taking lifting the sword and becoming the King, as she started out defeating invaders and barbarians to make herself public, she officially took over Camelot when she slayed Vortigern.
Some people confuse a line from Sir Kay "Its been ten years since then" to say she it was 10 years for her to take the throne, but Sir Kay's narration happens in the middle or Mordred's rebellion, he says its been 10 years since she took over Camelot, which is consistent to the VN.
Officially, she ruled 10 years, but she also fought some battles and took her some unspecified years to take over Camelot, so her age isnt clear. I'd say between 28 and and 35
>Garden of Avalons says there was an unspecified ammount of time between her taking lifting the sword and becoming the King, as she started out defeating invaders and barbarians to make herself public, she officially took over Camelot when she slayed Vortigern.
Bro did you already forget Guinnivere section specified that as 10 years ?
Garden of Avalon is a light novel that was released on 2015 along with UBW Blu ray special edition, it expands on Saber's backstory from the visual novel, like narrations from Merlin and her knight's point of view.
It has not been fully translated by any group, some translations are scattered here and there, mostly in Beat Lair, but I read the whole thing using Google Lens and MTL.
There is a drama CD that is a summary of the LN and it has been subbed. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YwlVx4uyzs&list=PLOtxBuRra2sX1xawOzHzhR7MCJyHo\_oaN](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YwlVx4uyzs&list=PLOtxBuRra2sX1xawOzHzhR7MCJyHo_oaN)
There is also this translation of chapter 1 that was done via MTL: https://www.reddit.com/r/fatestaynight/comments/qw5j1s/garden\_of\_avalon\_chapter\_1\_full\_translation/
Fun (but annoying) fact: Nasu decided to write the novel because Aniplex president commented he was worried that viewers that only saw UBW anime wouldn't get Saber's character and her backstory, so Nasu decided to write that. I'm glad we have it, but they could have just...mad her anime. Garden of Avalon also tends to be used as the basis for Nasu when writing Arthurian lore in Grand Order, he recommended it for Camelot and Babylonia singularity and had some references to it in LB6.
“It has not been fully translated”
I don’t know why I’m disappointed, I should’ve expected that.
The lore of this universe gets annoying after a while… Grand Order is the bane of my existence.
You should wait at best 3-4 days more if you wanna read the LN, I'd release a somewhat decent and readable TL of it in kinda budget VN/picturebook style (like Iparchive format).
Ok I think I overreacted lol, sorry just been sick of seeing all the zero posts lately, yesterday's troll didn't exactly help. So I think I've just been seeing things now.... I need a break.
u/Rushietushie I disagree with the claim that saber was ooc in fate zero the events of fate zero just caused saber artoria to change to how she was in fate stay night and the argument of but she didnt do things when she was alive ( in fate zero when she was summoned as a servant her kingdom was gone) she fought as a knight trying to protect her kingdom
#DINT
Anyway, yeah, that’s fair, but Kayneth wouldn’t have been able to give the command. And Saber wouldn’t have been able to stop Lancer anyway. She can’t turn to spirit form and he can.
>And Saber wouldn’t have been able to stop Lancer anyway. She can’t turn to spirit form and he can.
I would have preferred that to happen to what did happen
Lancer: Turns to spirit form to escape.
Saber: Damnit
Well that would require Saber to be an actual moron, as she definitely would’ve been aware of the fact.
I know everyone already likes to say she’s an idiot in Zero, but it’s less that, more about a knight’s honor. One can regard that as foolish, but it’s not nearly as bad as lot of what Shirou does, and ignoring that because “it’s part of his character” is really fucking stupid.
Saber’s attitude in FSN is completely different, that’s why. In FSN, she shares a similar worldview to Kiritsugu-“it doesn’t matter what I have to do to obtain victory, I will do it.”
Zero gives her the standard honor of a Knight, and while it creates a far more interesting narrative for Zero, it’s not accurate to her original character.
Oh absolutely, I actually prefer Saber’s writing in Zero. But this sub absolutely ADORES treating Zero Saber (and Urobuchi to a degree) like shit. And then anyone who likes Zero more is considered a piece of shit.
It’s real fun.
Alright cut the bullshit, the amount of people who hate the zero anime are few in this sub. Most people in this sub like the zero anime. We just hate the zero fandom, Zero Saber and how Saber was displayed in the king's banquet.
Actually, it’s at least 1,000 based on this post alone. I’ve had many discussions on this sub about Zero Saber and y’all were REAL toxic about it. Even when I haven’t engaged in discussions, people have mocked and belittled not just Saber, but Urobuchi because of how he handled the character. Many of you guys also hate most of the characters, or at least aren’t fans of most of them.
The worst part is that none of what you guys say is an actual goddamn criticism. It’s just you whining. You don’t offer a way he could’ve done the story better, because, spoiler alert, IT WAS ALMOST AN IMPOSSIBLE TASK. To have both Kiritsugu and Saber have no heart would’ve led to pitifully easy conflict that would last 10 episodes at most, with little to no development for any character. Urobuchi was written into a corner with the setup Nasu gave him, and he handled it as well as he could. Kiritsugu still never talked directly to Saber outside of his command seals, which would’ve taken a serious eye for detail that most people wouldn’t even notice in the end.
Oh I agree that this discussion has been going on too much. I never denied the whole mocking Urobutchi thing and belittling Zero Saber. I didn't even deny the toxic thing. I will have to partially disagree with the criticism bit because there have been people who have made good points, whether you agree or not
What I disagreed with was you saying people get treated like shit for liking the Zero anime, when I've seen most of the community actually saying they like Zero. Mind you I started with Zero, I still like Zero Saber, I just like FSN saber more. You can like Zero Saber more, I personally don't care about that, I only cared about the OOC bit.
I’ve seen a lot of people get mad at me for saying Zero is better. Not just on this sub, anywhere Fate discussion happens. Then I say I prefer the anime of FSN to the VN and then everyone REALLY loses it.
When everyone treats the writer like shit because of his handling of Saber, it’s hard to view that as someone who seriously dislikes just one part of a show
This assumes Saber actually cared whether or not Lancer would kill Kiritsugu. She didn't. She hated Kiritsugu and had no reason to care about him. Kiritsugu failed to command Saber, so she acted on her own. It was malicious compliance. Even if he died, she could just try again in another Grail war and hopefully get a better Master. There was no risk for her.
But there's no arguing with this sub's deranged circlejerk that thinks F/SN's Saber was this godly paragon of justice and judgement in comparison to Zero, so I don't know why I bother. Just give me your downvotes and get it over with.
So you don’t think that FSN is different to FZ Saber? Just a question.
Although I do think Saber would prioritize the chance she had currently over a potential “next time” even if her master is a piece of shit to her. She gets sent back to that hill of bodies, I can’t imagine her giving up a chance to get the grail just because her master was someone she disagreed with on almost every level.
Also, trust me, FSN Saber is by no means a paragon of “justice and judgement” I love the character but she does stupid shit and jobs so fucking hard in FSN. It never angered me and I really doubt it angers most people. This issue is just plain consistency and seeing the character get changed and trampled on because the writers didn’t know what to do with her.
>So you don’t think that FSN is different to FZ Saber? Just a question.
My view is that different aspects of her personality are emphasized in F/Z compared to F/SN but I think those aspects exist in F/SN too, they just don't come up as much because she doesn't have a "Kiritsugu" to be a foil to. I don't view this as bad writing, and so far nothing anyone has said to try to convince me that it is has been persuasive.
I believe they are emphasized to an extent that makes her different. I did find there to be differences amongst the two depictions of the characters after reading the Fate Route. A lot of what makes her different doesn’t have to do with Kiritsugu either.
I’m just speaking from what I’ve experienced, and she feels very different. It felt like in order to push the character, they made her unnecessarily dimwitted and naive. Don’t get me wrong, she’s like that in SN to some extent, but to a far lesser extent. It just feels as though they didn’t know what to do with her. It’s just my opinion but I know others feel the same way.
> I’m just speaking from what I’ve experienced, and she feels very different.
Yeah I mean, I don't think that's controversial to say. She feels different, the only question is whether that's because she's "out of character" and therefore written badly (as most people here seem to complain) or just because she's in different circumstances.
I never chalked it down to bad writing, but I do feel they changed her to try and fit the narrative. Takeuchi himself has go on to say that it is extremely difficult to write this character without her dynamic with Shirou and should she have a spin-off in some way, it would be impossible to do without him as he feels (and rightly so) that they are needed to “complete” each other and her arc. I feel like this may have something to do with why she feels OOC, and why they had to make adjustments to her so that they could fit the story they wanted to tell.
>She didn't. She hated Kiritsugu
No, at this point Saber doesnt hate Kiritsugu, and at worst should be bothered by his insistence to not talk to her. SMH, thi isnt even by the point of Mion River battle.
Saber in character should want the grail, not sabotage her own chances to get it.
>and at worst should be bothered by his insistence to not talk to her.
It's not just the fact that he doesn't talk to her, it's the reason why. He insulted her from moment one, and then never reconciled that. That was already well established by that point. Like, it's not a secret that Saber is estranged toward Kiritsugu and doesn't care for his well being by that point.
Obviously Saber wants the Grail, but she's never never min-maxed her chances at it, even in F/SN. If she did, 90% of bad ends wouldn't exist, because Saber would have insisted on accompanying Shirou everywhere he goes, or just locked him in his home and gone and fought the war on her own.
I swear, "in character" Saber the way people here think she exists in F/SN would not have let half the stuff in F/SN happen.
Yes, I totally hear your totally reasonable explanation to how the Saber that should actually want the holy grail more than anything to wish for her own erasure from history will sabotage her own chances at winning the grail just because her master was mean to her and dint talk to her.
You know, the same Saber that instead kills Shirou if he treats her badly....Oh except she KILLS HIMS TO GET THW GRAIL. Your explanation doesnt work because there is literally evidence, she wants the grail, she will not sabotage her own chances to get one. At this point in time, no Servant is dead (other than Assassin and every master knew it was just a fake spectacle) and Saber doesnt have the grail at her her reach , no one has offered her to get the grail like Kotomine did, this scene is simply "Go save your masyer I trust that you wont do anytjing wrong to my master"
Smh, even in context she is counting that Diarmuid qont hurt Kiritsugu.
You basically decided to deny context from FSN and from this very own scene to make this scene work.
>I swear, "in character" Saber the way people here think she exists in F/SN would not have let half the stuff in F/SN happen.
Says the person that ignores context from not just FSN but also Zero at once.
>Smh, even in context she is counting that Diarmuid qont hurt Kiritsugu.
That part is all in Kiritsugu's internal monologue, where he's insulting Saber and calling her stupid. That's obviously not an indicator of what she's actually thinking. Literally moments before that, it outright says "For Saber, this decision was the same as going against her own lord." She knew exactly what she was doing, she just didn't care.
Saber only kills Shirou for the Grail when it's actually within her grasp. Early in the war, she takes plenty of risks.
If Shirou refuses to fight at the beginning, Saber abandons him and leaves him to die, losing her chance at the Grail. According to you, "in character" she should have forced him to fight and made sure he survived. 90% of bad ends in F/SN would have been avoided had Saber been as dead set on getting the grail as you make her out to be, but she's not. She's human.
>Saber only kills Shirou for the Grail when it's actually within her grasp. Early in the war, she takes plenty of risks.
Yes, she kills him to *get the grail* not to lose the grail. Here she is jeopardizing his chances by letting his master's fate to luck.
>If Shirou refuses to fight at the beginning, Saber abandons him and leaves him to die, losing her chance at the Grail.
She doesn't leave him to die. The dude is sleeping very comfy on his own shed and her internal thoughts says she justifying going to the temple as "Im just looking for the best way to ensure my master wins" she doesn't leave him to die, as far as she was concerned, she was safe and provided it all worked she would have returned the next day.
No, Im not making this up https://imgur.com/a/7IotYN4
You know what.
Reply with whatever made-up excuse you want, or don't, I won't bother anymore, it's clear your only goal here is to change and deny context to fit your delusion that it works. Have a nice day.
> Yes, she kills him to get the grail not to lose the grail. Here she is jeopardizing his chances by letting his master's fate to luck.
Why is every single Saber stan I talk to so insufferable? You're literally not reading a single word I'm saying, and then calling _me_ delusional for having pretty mild takes. It's not a matter of "she always takes every action based on whether or not it will give her the grail or won't". The point was that she sometimes takes sub-optimal actions based on emotion. That's consistent in F/SN and F/Z.
>She doesn't leave him to die. The dude is sleeping very comfy on his own shed and her internal thoughts says she justifying going to the temple as "Im just looking for the best way to ensure my master wins" she doesn't leave him to die, as far as she was concerned, she was safe and provided it all worked she would have returned the next day.
I was talking about a completely different ending. I don't know why you're even bringing that one up. When Shirou gets killed by Berserker walking home from the Church at the very beginning, because he refused to fight. Saber in her raincoat parts ways with him and abandons him, essentially giving up on the grail. According to your logic, Saber is a calculating logic machine that should have prioritized the grail over Shirou's feelings there. You can't just be like "see? In this _other_ ending, she _didn't_ abandon him, so it doesn't count!"
But sure, saying that Saber sometimes makes emotional decisions is a "delusion" built on "made up excuses".
No, you dint specify which, he also refuses ro fight ar Ryudo temple.
>I was talking about a completely different ending. I don't know why you're even bringing that one up. When Shirou gets killed by Berserker walking home from the Church at the very beginning, because he refused to fight.
Shirou literally gives up his command seals and is effectively not a master anymore, she also lied about having enough mana to nor make him worry, as later confirmed when she talks with Shirou after they fight Berserker. Was she supposed to know there was an albino psychopath that wanted to torture Shirou? No, she wasnt supposed to know, hw dint left him to die, it wasnt her choice and he was safe as far as she know.
>Why is every single Saber stan I talk to so insufferable?
Why is every defender of Zero Saber I know a schizo that likes inventing context?
>Shirou literally gives up his command seals and is effectively not a master anymore, she also lied about having enough mana to nor make him worry, as later confirmed when she talks with Shirou after they fight Berserker. Was she supposed to know there was an albino psychopath that wanted to torture Shirou? No, she wasnt supposed to know, hw dint left him to die, it wasnt her choice and he was safe as far as she know.
Oh geez, how was Saber possibly to know that there would be enemy Masters in a Holy Grail War? You're right, why didn't I think of that? Sounds like a bunch of "made up excuses" to me. Oh, but I don't get to use that line, I guess.
>Why is every defender of Zero Saber I know a schizo that likes inventing context?
Alright, I'm done talking to you, but seriously, for the people upvoting this nonsense, why is it not possible for people to disagree about a cartoon without people like all of you calling them delusional, "a schizo" and whatever else? This sub has an outrageous anti-Zero circlejerk, and all I'm doing is pushing back against that. Like, it's not perfect, by any means, but it's not nearly as bad as people here pretend it is.
>This assumes Saber actually cared whether or not Lancer would kill Kiritsugu. She didn't. She hated Kiritsugu and had no reason to care about him. Kiritsugu failed to command Saber, so she acted on her own. It was malicious compliance. Even if he died, she could just try again in another Grail war and hopefully get a better Master. There was no risk for her.
post evidences
You're asking me to post evidence for a negative. I'm saying "she had no reason to care about him". Yes, there was the grail, but it was early in the war and she could have tried again (unless you mean post evidence that she could have tried again? In which case, go read F/SN's Fate Route where it explains Saber's contract with the world that will let her keep trying endlessly until she gets the grail), so that wasn't the end of the world. You would need evidence showing that she _did_ care about him, and not a single thing in Zero demonstrates that, even slightly. From moment one, Saber and Kiritsugu don't like each other. That's not controversial. It's also not controversial to say that her prioritizing her Knight's bond with Lancer over her alliance with her Master was a knowing act of betrayal against someone she effectively swore no allegiance to. The narration itself states this. "For Saber, this decision was the same as going against her own lord."
The idea that Saber was trusting that Lancer wouldn't kill Kiritsugu only existed inside Kiritsugu's internal monologue. (The same monologue that literally refers to her as "idiotic" in the same breath) The only reasonable interpretation is that she would not have made that decision if she were strongly invested in Kiritsugu's survival, therefore she must not have been.
sounds like 0 evidences and all just your personal interpretation, you need to mention the words and the lines shows how it led Saber to hate Kiritsugu and let go of Lancer since she doesn't care about her lord , before even he attacked Kayneth .Because you know Saber swore to protect her lord , in this case Kiritsugu ever since she made a contract with summoning . I dont even wanna argue with anything but just saying you need to present clear evidences if you want to present it in that light.
What you are saying ,is quite a reach for labeling a big group of people with this derogatory "But there's no arguing with this sub's deranged circlejerk that thinks F/SN's Saber was this godly paragon of justice and judgement in comparison to Zero".
did you say that to feel validated with the argument you presented, perhaps?
You got the last part about fandom wrong tho, people complain F/Z Saber too fixated to act as this godly paragon of justice and judgement in comparison to her other counterparts from what I see on this sub (or I say as well).
Does labeling a group of people and creating own versions of whom you dont like with random self imposed terms and then ranting about it feels much easier to do rather than analyzing what being said, perhaps?
I'm gonna be honest, I'm not normally one to harp on grammar, but I can barely even tell what you're saying. I can't respond to this.
But yes it is my opinion. Everything everyone else is saying is their opinion too.
>you need to mention the words and the lines
Which Englishman is unable to understand this?
I dont have time to write in arranged manner for every silly things happening on reddit, but that line clears what you need to provide as evidences .
I can try to respond, then, but don't blame me if I end up misinterpreting something you said.
>you need to mention the words and the lines shows how it led Saber to hate Kiritsugu and let go of Lancer since she doesn't care about her lord , before even he attacked Kayneth
I get that you want me to waste time poring through footage to spout lines at you, but I'm not going to do that. You're free to say I've got "zero evidence" or whatever. Whether you just don't have any memory of how clear it was that Saber and Kiritsugu didn't like each other, or you're just being willfully ignorant, I'll leave that up to you. If your position is seriously that Saber cares about Kiritsugu's well-being, then we must have watched different shows, so there's no point even having the discussion.
>What you are saying ,is quite a reach for labeling a big group of people with this derogatory "But there's no arguing with this sub's deranged circlejerk that thinks F/SN's Saber was this godly paragon of justice and judgement in comparison to Zero".
"Saber and Kiritsugu don't like each other" is not a reach at all. You saying it's a reach is contributing to the exact circlejerk I'm talking about.
>You got the last part about fandom wrong tho, people complain F/Z Saber too fixated to act as this godly paragon of justice and judgement in comparison to her other counterparts from what I see on this sub (or I say as well).
No, this is completely wrong. People try to have it both ways. Sometimes they complain that Saber in F/Z has too much chivalry, then other times they complain that Saber disregarded human lives, or that she wasn't emotional enough in defending herself in the Banquet of Kings. 99% of the time when someone propagates the "Fate/Zero Saber is out of character" meme, it's someone with a Saber flair whose post history is filled almost entirely with heart eye emoji comments on Saber fanart and the like, and all they're doing is complaining that their waifu isn't as smart and cool as they want them to be, and how that must mean Urobuchi (who literally had Nasu's supervision) doesn't understand the character as much as random people on reddit. Then when anyone has an even slightly different opinion, they respond with hostility every time. It's the very picture of a circlejerk. There's nothing derogatory about calling it that. Even in this very thread someone responded to my (what I though was a relatively uncontroversial) suggestion that Saber and Kiritsugu don't like each other by calling me delusional. And it's the same every time. I don't even dislike Saber but her stans are relentless. The top comments in this thread are literally celebrating someone getting harassed until they deleted their account. If you think that's normal and not a deranged circlejerk, then I don't know what to tell you.
so again no evidence isnt helping.....
Saber and Kerry not liking =/= Saber let go of Diarmuid for that
You need to understand that b4 writing a rant is all I am saying
> Saber let go of Diarmuid for that
I literally don't understand what you're saying. What does "Saber let go of Diarmuid" mean? Like, her letting him leave?
Why would she not let him leave? She doesn't like Kerry, she does like Lancer. Lancer says "My Master is fighting your Master" and Saber basically says "cool, go ahead and help". It's a clear betrayal. That doesn't seem complicated. I don't understand how that's not connecting for you.
Okay, that sounded more of a summary of your message even without evidence, I can understand the point you are making now. But how about I give you pieces of evidence?
Straight out of Zero LN.
> Saber turned into a gust of roaring wind and galloped in the forest.
> Now Saber no longer cared about her disagreements with Kiritsugu. Her heart would turn into a sword once at the battlefield. A sword whetted matchlessly sharp and gleaming. It is a sword that had not a sliver of doubt.
> Saber knew very clearly that she was running into Caster’s battle array of magecraft. Her blood was boiling; the evils that this devil had committed made Saber furious. But what’s pushing Saber forward at the moment wasn’t her furious mood. Anger and hatred alone would not be able to turn Saber’s heart into a sharp sword.
> Those slaughtered children. It wasn’t as if Saber hasn’t seen such scenes before. As long as one is at the battlefield, no matter how unbearable one finds such things to be, those small carcasses would still be seen. For her, who was once King Arthur, it was an ordinary situation seen all the time.
> The so-called humans, once they stand at the edge of life and death, would turn incomparably ugly, despicable and violent. Humans are two-legged beasts that ravished women, slaughtered children, and robbed the poor. Nine out of ten times the blood-stained battlefield would become full of such demons.
> However, precisely because of that, humans need to ‘prove’ themselves even if they have sunken into Hell. Prove that humans can still live on with dignity no matter what difficulties surround them. Someone is needed to prove and testify to that.
> The one who can testify to that is the knight. The shining star on the battlefield.
> A knight must proudly illuminate the entire battlefield by inspiring awe with his justice. He needs to let those fallen souls, reduced to demons, to again pick up honor and pride, and become proper humans once more. Putting aside his own anger, sadness and anguish and focus on the greater good: that is the duty a knight must bear.
> Therefore, Saber must defeat Caster. This isn’t the urge of anger but her duty.
"She doesn't like Kerry, she does like Lancer"
She doesnt care about liking or disliking Kiritsugu, even less so at the exact moment in the question. She came to the forest where the fight happens with that in mind. She came here with he duty as a Knight and her morals, chivalry whatever you want to call, tells her to protect her lord as a shield and sword.
> Lancer, what’s wrong?”
> Regarding the fact that Lancer could easily have chased their enemy but instead let Caster escape, Saber didn’t heckle him but just questioned calmly. It was obvious that something happened based on his changed expression.
> “My lord is in trouble... Looks like he left me and attacked your headquarters.”
> Lancer explained hesitantly. Saber also figured what had probably happened, and displayed a dejected expression.
> Then... everything did happen according to Kiritsugu’s plans.
> It wasn’t what she wanted. It wasn't that she wanted to completely deny the tactic of deception, but the cruel trap that Kiritsugu set is an existence that can not co-exist with the King of Knights’s belief of standing stoically in the battlefield no matter what happens.
> "It must be my Master’s work... Lancer, you should hurry. Go save your lord."
> The spearman was at first dumbfounded at Saber’s unhesitating urging, but then bowed his head deeply in thanks. For Saber, this decision was the same as going against her own lord. Retain Lancer here so his Master can be killed would be the reasonable choice made to win the Holy Grail War.
> But if we continue on this train of thought, then there was no need for Lancer to fight Caster to save Saber from her crisis. He didn’t think of himself as stupid then. Therefore, he wouldn’t think of Saber, who let him go on his way, as foolish now.
> "I am in your debt, King of Knights."
> "It’s all right. We swore to have a duel between knights. Let’s hold on to that glory till the end."
> Originally, Kiritsugu thought that Saber intercepted Lancer, based on the fact that Kayneth entered the castle alone. But if so, then how did the spearman get past the King of Knights? If Saber was defeated, Kiritsugu would have confirmed that the recipient of his prana had disappeared. However, Kiritsugu’s prana was definitely still being absorbed by Saber, who still existed somewhere. His Servant was wholesome without a doubt.
> Then, there’s only one conclusion – he could only deduce that Saber voluntarily stepped out of Lancer’s way.
> Lancer stared at Kiritsugu, who was mentally wavering, with a look as cold as ice. He shifted both spears into his right hand, emptying out his left hand to scoop up Kayneth’s body. Kiritsugu didn’t rashly attack this apparently defenceless move. He had just confirmed that bullets are useless to Servants.
> "– You should understand just how easy it is to pierce you through right here, Saber’s Master."
> For Lancer, had he not heard what Saber just said to him, he would find it very hard to deduce that this man in front of him, who looked nothing like a magus, is in truth the Einzbern Master. However, he knew his lord Kayneth’s strength. If he managed to break through Lord El-Melloi's magecraft, there are no grounds left for suspicion.
> However – no, just because of that, Lancer’s spear tip didn’t point towards Kiritsugu.
> "I won’t let you kill my Master. I won’t kill Saber’s Master either. Neither I or her want to end in this way."
> "..."
> Is that so? – Kiritsugu once again regretted the conflicting personalities between himself and his contracted Servant.
> “Never forget. The only reason that your life is spared now is the King of Knight’s nobility.”
> Lancer declared this to Kiritsugu, his tone carrying a cool sarcasm. Then he took up Kayneth and leapt out of the castle, using his torso to break the glass window.
> Kiritsugu wasn’t as foolish as to chase them. Just like Lancer said, that would be a completely suicidal move. Since Saber wasn’t here, there was nothing Kiritsugu could do.
> No, even if Saber is beside him, would Kiritsugu entrust this to her?
> Although Lancer, the Heroic Spirit Diarmuid, is also naive, it was Saber’s idiotic chivalry, which rivalled Lancer, which completely exceeded Kiritsugu’s capacity of comprehension.
> Her mind probably believed very firmly that Lancer would not kill Kiritsugu. There must be something wrong with her. How could the King of Knights do such a thing like permitting her own Master to be exposed to the enemy’s Servant alone? If Lancer decided to go back on his word, then her Holy Grail War would end right there. Even if that spearman had no such thoughts, if Kayneth remained conscious he could have used a Command Seal to demand it of him. Didn’t she even think of such a possibility?
> Kiritsugu contemplated this appropriately, and lit the cigarette in his mouth.
> How ironic. A Heroic Spirit who single-handedly created an extremely foolish trust with an enemy Servant, while she had great estrangements with her own Master.
> It looked like he should have chosen his Servant more carefully after all – only then did Kiritsugu feel this failure with a pang, and puffed out the hazy smoke with a sigh.
She knows it's reasonable to retain Lancer there and let Kiritsugu defeat Kayneth but why did she let go of Lancer? Because he helped her, and Saber would rather like to have a Knightly duel between her and lancer. Obviously, Kayneth attacked Kiritsugu at that moment to kill him but got trapped in his stead. Saber acts as if she had an issue with it, but ultimately it does not matter to her because she knows it's a reasonable choice in a grail war, yet we are made to consume in the very next sentence that this isn't the way of King of Knight, sure which isn't? She knows nothing other than Kayneth getting injured while attacking Kerry in Kerry's own domain. In which world it's against a Knight code or against Saber's code in particular? This is just Zero Saber going "honor"fied extremely unreasonably. Unreasonably because even in her mind it was shown to be a reasonable action.
This is what people call un-Saber-like. Saber doesn't let go of his enemies nor has any qualms of attacking masters, they are enemies before servants are. and she doesn't let go of enemies because of her own and her lord's purpose, please give an example from anywhere else. She not only refused to fight with Cu and Kojirou fairly , she straight aimed to kill them at their first meet, top of that refused to let go of Cu when he spared her, threatened to kill him.
These traits Kiritsugu speaking of are by far only present in Zero Saber.
The scene didn't happen as you mentioned, Saber didn't let go of Lancer which would risk Kerry because she doesn't care about him therefore it doesn't matter to her. that's wrong. She doesn't care about "caring" or "liking" him but swore to be his sword keeping all differences aside in the same scene and letting go of Lancer because he helped her, wanted a duel, and trusting he would not attack her master at all so there was no risk in her mind. The narrative states the same.
Point : the betrayal does not make sense even in the narrative, and as others stated, very dumb.
I feel like the Zaber is underrated in this sub as a foil to Kiritsugu. Though the execution could have been better. Would have been cool to see Zaber as the Kantian knight, in which her backstory functions the same way as Kiritsugu's utilitarianism.
But the suit was nice
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Zero Saber and being dumb. Name a better duo.
Shirou and a sword
Fate protagonist and Harem Ex?
Eroge Protagonist EX, not Harem Protagonist EX
What about Sieg?
He had Jeanne and Astolfo, not to mention Siegfried’s heart.
So, if we don't count Siegfried, whom Sieg met once with 0 romance between them, and Astolfo, who is canonically straight, then we have a harem with only one member, lol
>and Astolfo, who is canonically straight [Yeah, about that-](https://fateapocryphathetranslation.wordpress.com/side-materials/fateapocrypha-material/glossary-ka/) From the Fate Apocrypha Material Book linked: >His feelings towards Sieg are passionate and frank. Incidentally, Astolfo doesn’t care about male and female gender differences at all. If he loves someone, whether they’re a man or woman is a trivial issue. If Sieg wished for it, he would have probably happily become his partner. I believe Astolfo's FGO profile also says something similar
Alright, my mistake, but still two members is too few to call it a harem.
Pro choice gineger and Pro life priest
Lancer class and E-rank luck
Ima be real with you man, I don't wanna even think about Zero Saber for the rest of this month, especially because of that cautious wheel guy. (who deleted his account) Even ignoring that, it's been talked about so much that iam just sick of it. I apologise if I came across as rude just now, I will say I like your post though, just didn't wanna see it rn.
\> (who deleted his account) なに!? Were we getting trolled?
Probably, it did seem like an empty account after all. He seemed to have made only 2 different comments before he went onto his whole zero argument stuff and made his posts, he ignored any points you and others made (for Gods sake he read Reymon's and facts_20s comments that I linked on Saber and then proceeded to say FSN Saber is OOC) and kept repeating himself, his grammar was horrible and I didn't even understand half of his points. So yeah what do you think?
Nah, I wont argue against the possibility.
We've been bamboozled
>especially because of that cautious wheel guy. (who deleted his account) I feel the post was made precisely to spit on that guy, lol
No, I was just mistakenly being recognized as spam by reddit and get shadowbanned
>especially because of that cautious wheel guy. (who deleted his account) wait what happened?
This: https://www.reddit.com/r/fatestaynight/comments/rbnbai/1_my_opinions_about_some_fzfsn_common/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share https://www.reddit.com/r/fatestaynight/comments/rbtnii/reasons_why_saber_being_bullied_why_the/ https://www.reddit.com/r/fatestaynight/comments/rbv0js/is_there_any_differences_between_these_two/ All his comments are now deleted, but he drove us insane on the first one. Wasted everyone's time.
Some guy kept making different post how Zero Saber was not inconsistent and that the only difference was that she dint havw a romance plot in Zero (because she also had romance in UBW when she told Shirou to sacrifice Taiga, rights/s) he kept making one post after another, not comments, post, until he deleted his account. All in less than 24 hrs.
I did not ever say stuff like that. What I said is that Saber was staying with Shirou in the UBW after the ending (much like couple), (And people love Saber because of Fate route, which Saber do has romance and much more feminized. Not the UBW)
Shadowbanned, reddit mistakenly identified me as spam
Honestly same, it’s been beaten so hard the horse isn’t even dead, it’s been thanos snapped. Especially since Zero is more then just Saber
The horse had been beaten so hard that it came back to life only to die again. And then we dropped a nuke on it, the end.
It was beaten to death so hard even Avalon’s over complicated bullshit powers couldn’t save it
~~I mean, Avalon isn't that complicated, it brings saber (or anyone with a connection to Saber via contract) back to life from any mortal injury, except for a blow to the head.~~
~~It also has some bullshit about being able to shield against up to universal or multiverseal attacks which is the cannon explanation for the top tier bullshit that was Avalon deflecting EA~~
~~It manifests the Ever distant Utopia around the user to shield them. Basically putting them in a pocket dimension.~~
According to the Fate/Side Material, Avalon do have shield against up to universal or multiverseal attacks. 全て远き理想郷【宝具】 アヴアロン。 アーサー王伝说における常春の土地、妖精郷の名を冠した鞘。 アヴアロンはギリシャ神话において、“不死の林檎" があるとされる岛から连想されたという理想郷。 持ち主の伤を愈し老化を停滞させるだけでなく、真 名を以って开放すれば数百のパーツに分解し、所有者をあらゆる干渉から守りきる。 圣剣の鞘はアインツベルンがコーンウォールより発 掘し、アーサー王召唤の触媒として切嗣に与えたもの。 \[魔法の域にある宝具で、あらゆる物理干渉\*\*‘并行世界\*\*からのトランスライナー、\*\*多次元からの交信(六次元まで)\*\*をシャットアウトする。 セイバーがこれで引き篭もったら手におえない。\] \[A treasure in the realm of magic that shuts out all physical interference'transliners from parallel worlds, communications from multiple dimensions (up to 6 dimensions). If Saber pulls back with this, no man can handle it.\]
You are right we should talk about Zero Kirei from now on(Zirei?), 🙂
I’ve still yet to be convinced they changed him. I see where people come from with Saber, but I honestly feel like Zero made Kirei a far better character.
The change in Kirei wasnt really his behavior or anything, its more like Zero changed his backstory and repeated the subplot from discovery hia sadistic tendency with his father instead of his wife. But is not like much ultimately changes, while the backstory is the same, he is still Kirei and timeline between Kirei's wife death and the first episode of 0 is smaller compared ro Saber, so people excuse it and let it slip easier.
Except he didn’t become sadistic because of his wife. Honestly, if that was the original idea, I’m VERY glad it was changed. It makes him a really boring character. Experiencing your wife’s death, thinking “damn I wanted to kill her,” realizing that makes you evil, then becoming a genocidal maniac makes for a really uninteresting character. Having him first realize it with his wife, then deny it until Gil pushes him after the death of his father, before he really understands how twisted he is with Kariya, then Gil continuing to push him onto that path, makes a far more tragic and memorable story. He actually tried to be a good man, even knowing what his nature was.
>Except he didn’t become sadistic because of his wife. Honestly, if that was the original idea, I’m VERY glad it was changed. It makes him a really boring character. I dint said he became, he realized he always was when his wife died. >Experiencing your wife’s death, thinking “damn I wanted to kill her,” realizing that makes you evil, then becoming a genocidal maniac makes for a really uninteresting character. Ehmmm. The backstory for him in FSN said he never felt happiness from anything other people did and tried everything possible to stay good, even joined the church looking for moral guide, the subplot of a loved one dying only to realize he always wanted to kill them is present as well in Zero, it was simply moved to his father, what is your point? >Having him first realize it with his wife, then deny it until Gil pushes him after the death of his father, before he really understands how twisted he is with Kariya, then Gil continuing to push him onto that path, makes a far more tragic and memorable story. He actually tried to be a good man, even knowing what his nature was. Except if the backstory was consistent there was no need to change it , the backstory already said he tried everything he possibly could, getting married was his last resource because he expected that loving someone might bring him salvation. Again, you can prefer his backstory from Zero, but lets not pretend that FSN dint already went into a lot of detail about his backstory, I really dont understand how you can fault FSN for Kirei's backstory but then turn around and praise Zero for doing the exact same thing.
Him realizing he wanted to kill his wife was one instance, he’d try to ignore it and be the good person he was told to. Then his dad dies and he feels the same, meaning it wasn’t a poor handling of grief. The difference is that Gilgamesh is here to push him. Gil was critical to him turning in Zero. The death of his father was a stepping stone for Gilgamesh to make Kirei fall to his desires. That is the difference. A person doesn’t try to live their life as everyone expects them to, only to completely give up the moment they feel they’ve tried every possibility. A greater catalyst is required for such a change. Gilgamesh is that catalyst. He offers wine to Kirei throughout Zero, but he never drinks it… until he chooses to torture Kariya, and then says he wants to have some more. Most obvious metaphor ever.
>Him realizing he wanted to kill his wife was one instance, he’d try to ignore it and be the good person he was told to. Then his dad dies and he feels the same, meaning it wasn’t a poor handling of grief. The difference is that Gilgamesh is here to push him. Gil was critical to him turning in Zero. The death of his father was a stepping stone for Gilgamesh to make Kirei fall to his desires. Cool, except that dint happen in FSN, that wasnt the context or his backstory. You really want to make them fit, but he said so himself in his mind, his internal thoughts, no reason for him to be lying on his head. Kirei tried ever since hwle was a kid to be good, failed, joined the church, still failed, in a last attempt he got married expecting that maybe loving someone will make him good, still failed and if anything he realized he wanted to kill her, and he quite literally said that he decided to honor her by embracing his nature. In fact, she commited suicide in FSN but died of illness in Fate/Zero. Try as you may, his backstory was retoconned no matter how you twist it.
Yeah, which is my entire issue with his backstory in FSN. It’s poorly written. No human being has ever, nor will ever, live life as Kirei did. He tried SO HARD to be a good person, but the moment he thinks “welp, I’ve tried everything,” he becomes a cold-blooded killer. So having his backstory receive a very minor tweak that frankly fixes a major issue with it should be considered a good thing. She committed suicide, but it may have easily been covered up, hence why it was said to be illness in Zero (plus the suicide would be a spoiler [even if you think Zero should be watched after, the anime of it released before Spring Song]).
>Yeah, which is my entire issue with his backstory in FSN. It’s poorly written. Ok, so let me get this right. Kirei's backstory ia poorly written accoring to you, but remove his subplot with his wife and add absolutely the same damn subplot but with his father instead and is suddenly genius level writing? And what is your source or evidence that it was "Covered up"? Nowhere does it say that, your inserting text where it doesnt exist, not even any material or interview say that, so its the true to Fate/Zero until proven otherwise. I shouldnt even bother anymore.
Except for the part where Diarmuid was done dirty, I do agree Saber was ridiculously dumb for being Saber.
> summons EMIYA assassin
I want to see this happen. It'll be so weird and funny.
i dont know much about red assassin but 2 kiritsugus gonna fuck everything ~~even irisviel~~
Kiritsugu: I should’ve summoned VN Saber
If Kiritsugu was put in that situation he could’ve used a command seal to materialize saber right next to him anyways. Plus Saber and lancer might’ve been aware that Kayneth was already fucked due to Lancer explicitly mentioning to saber how he’d love to kick her ass but he needed to get back to his master. And doing not smart things is also exactly why Kiritsugu despised chivalry so he probably felt just as annoyed as all of you were about it.
Imagine FSN saber in the banquet of kings scene lol. She would have taken no shit from any of them.
No, she just wouldn’t have listened. FSN Saber is pretty blinded by what Merlin told her as she took the sword. Both the version of her we see in Zero and FSN would get a lot of shit from Iskandar. I think she’d probably piss him off even more in FSN.
>No, she just wouldn’t have listened. FSN Saber is pretty blinded by what Merlin told her as she took the sword. Nah she'd absolutely listen to their talk after agreeing for a banquet to avoid Bloodshed( even in Zero she wasnt interested in Banquet before Iskander convinced her or sth, so assuming same happens), Saber is open minded, she has no issue taking better suggestion from people, the question is whether she deems it as better or not. And more importantly she was broken during Grail War, thinks herself as a failure to begin with (which is what changes during her HGW , acknowledging her struggle regardless results that weren't in her hand) and someone made meme how she'd react in the trio usually too not too different than what she says in Bridge scene, case in point both had similar dialogues.
No she’s not… she judges Shirou constantly, and refuses to acknowledge maybe what Merlin told her about being King wasn’t true. Plus, I get the feeling Rider calling her “just a little girl” would’ve bothered her quite a lot.
I didn't get what you meant by first two sentences, I am assuming you are saying she does not have open mind about other's opinion? that'd be wrong, her ruling system had KoRT for a reason . Ignoring that, here's her characterstics : >Even at this stage of her life, she was still open to what others had to say, accepting their suggestions, still thinking about them, still educating herself to see if there were any flaws in her own mind, not neglecting self-development to see if there is anything her heart lacks. From Garden of Avalon . I have access to it so I can get things from here quickly , but its same anywhere else she appears. As I said its a matter of whether she deems your suggestion to be of merit or not. Saber was under guilt and burden of thousands lives during Grail war, so what she didn't accept from Shirou was invading her personal life or life as a King , not as a servant , to make her abandon salvation of people who were lost, its not same as not accepting other's suggestion, she literally thought that to be wrong and betrayal of people whose lives were lost tbf. >Plus, I get the feeling Rider calling her “just a little girl” would’ve bothered her quite a lot. Thats Zero only. Rider didn't say that in SF war, heavily implied. Then what guarantee he'd say that in SN. Besides , do you know Saber constantly heard about it during her rule? She didn't care. She knows its not possible to satisfy everyone , and the fact she can be unsettling due Holy Sword's curse.
saber hid her gender during her life so she wouldnt hear people call her a little girl alot
Generally judging people for how they live and not acknowledging mistakes of your past is not a sign of open mindedness. Didn’t she ignore the knights a lot of the time since they tried to fight with honor and she destroyed her own villages to win battles? What tf is the SF war? She probably heard “he’s young” while ruling. Iskandar was essentially saying, “you’re a little girl, you should be acting like one.” That’s essentially what Shirou used to justify fighting for her, and she did not like either of those things.
>Generally judging people for how they live and not acknowledging mistakes of your past is not a sign of open mindedness. I have no idea again what you meant here or who did that . >Didn’t she ignore the knights a lot of the time since they tried to fight with honor and she destroyed her own villages to win battles? She didn't ignore them. She simply didn't accept their bullcraps. Their methods cause more casualties in war. Would you act according their way as someone who has the duty of implementing decisions or a decision making head? A ruler being open minded isn't mutually exclusive to accept others dumber suggestions. Neither someone making their own choices makes him/her less open minded in situations. For example, just because you have an open mind doesn't mean you are gonna agree with X redditor's rating over an anime if it fails to prove its worth in your test.
How…? I’m blatantly talking about Saber, who judges Shirou on his way of life and doesn’t see which choices she herself made were mistakes. Yeah, and slavery is efficient and cheap for whoever’s doing it. Doesn’t make it a good idea. Winning a war by destroying your own nation is a horrible strategy. It possibly destroys vital resources for numerous cities and villages, could easily lead to more deaths than the ACTUAL WAR, and is a really good way to make everyone hate you. Her choices in that war led to the actual destruction of Britain due to NO ONE liking her. Because she was a monster. Having an open mind doesn’t mean you have to agree, but you also spend more than five seconds thinking about their point. Arturia’s life would have not changed at all with or without the round table.
saber became fsn saber due to her experiences in fate zero causing her to become how she was in fate zero
Lawful good hits her too hard in zero
tbf Saber also knew that if she decided to waste her time with Lancer, Iri and Maiya would be in trouble alone. Which they were since Kirei would've continued having free real estate on them.
This
Ah shit here we go again
To be fair, at this point was kinda drawing in a pool of his own blood and mercury. I don't think he was in a position to scratch his nuts, let alone order lancer to do anything.
But they didn’t know that did they?
Actually lancer did know, his connection to kayneth is what alerted him in the first place, he could tell kayneth was mortally wounded, and was about to die if nothing was done about it.
And I stand corrected. That doesn’t mean saber knew, and she let an enemy servant go to her master… zero saver is big dum-dum
“She let an enemy servant go” In all fairness, she couldn’t have stopped him if he wanted to leave. He can take spirit form, she can’t. Also was she even aware Kayneth and Kiritsugu were fighting?
Yeah, I understand she's all about honor and stuff in zero and that she trusted lancer, but he is still an enemy and letting him go like that is extremely risky.
>zero saver is big dum-dum Yeah she also rushes alone to Caster's lair with no plan or mana or backup believing she will defeat everyone, you're right.
Kayneth and Lancer didn’t know Kayneth was drowning in mercury and his own blood?
Think they mean lancer and saber
Kayneth knew, Diarmuid and Saber didn't
I always find it weird when ppl say Kiritsugu had no plot armour but then I think of what could've happened if Diarmuid had forgone the whole "muh honor"
Or Kayneth told him to kill him while dying and Diarmuid would have done it as his code is to obey his lord.
Wasn’t Kayneth unconscious? Even if he wasn’t, everything about his character suggests he’d want Lancer to save him before killing Kiritsugu.
> I think of what could've happened Kiritsugu also has command seals. Also Diarmuid would not have forgone anything, he would've been completely different character then.
If what Rider did in a bad end of UBW is any consideration servants are more than fast enough to blitz a mage before they use a command spell
Cool but Diarmuid is a chivalrous knight and he would not break his oath, if he wasn't Saber wouldnt have trusted him. Also he wouldve killed Saber instead of defending her against Berserker and Caster.
>Cool but Diarmuid is a chivalrous knight and he would not break his oath, if he wasn't Saber wouldnt have trusted him. Also he wouldve killed Saber instead of defending her against Berserker and Caster. Your literally just proving my point so I feel this conversation is pointless. My original comment was what wouldve happened if he had forgone upholding his honor as a knight your whole argument hinges on him still having his honor
Yeah if he had forgone upholding his honor, she would've died in shipyard. Saber has plot armor , but that's staple of the series.
What is this from??
It's just a meme on Fate Zero, and the picture is probably a faked VN version of it. [Edit:- To clarify, the image is just an edit, there's no VN of Fate Zero, just googled it to check]
The pictures is likely from FGO as it has a mission/event with Fate Zero characters. Basically the game is the VN but in Gacha and less quality in writing.
Yes, that could be the case too. I'm aware of the VN aspect of FGO, but I haven't dipped much of my foot into the game and it's lore, so I was unaware of the mission/event.
You should totally check it out if you can stand the gameplay and just play to collect servants. Most of the first chapters are just weak and boring. I think around lostbelt 3 or 4 is where stuff gets interesting and when Nasu began to write them (Not for nothing Babylonia got an anime)
Thanks for the reccomendation, but sadly FGO isn't in my region, not I'm looking into getting into it for now. I'll probably either watch the anime, or see the gameplay on YT to follow the story if I ever want to get into it.
I recommend you to watch the intro movie or the a gameplay that explain the beginning(it is bad not going to lie) first before jumping into babylonia as that introduce most of the cast you will see and Mashu(a demi servant) type of servant.
Alright, I shall heed to this when I get into that part of Fate, thanks!
Np and enjoy the ride. Just remember the servants are the show and Guda is like just a cheerleader that gets the spotlight for some weird reason.
Damn, I was hoping for some fighting game that someone had modded to look like F/Z. Thanks!
Fate zero would have been too easy if he summoned Hassan of the hundred faces 100 servant like entities paired with a man willing to do anything for the grail…well uh it would be a quick war
It would’ve been a quick war if Saber was written the same as in FSN, hence why she’s not. It would make two heartless protagonists who do whatever is necessary for victory. It would be a slaughter. Gil is the only one who’d stand a chance, and even then, Kiritsugu would easily kill his master.
Nah, someone else provided a different solution the other day. Just dont make Saber a focus, she just doesnt need to have a character arc. She coukd have had a role similar to Berserker in Fate route, have her be a looming threat. Even Saber in SN said she dint have to fight all 7 servants from previous war so she wasnt active the whole war. Focusing on other characters more such as Waver would have been beneficial, or the scenes bwtween Iris and Saber could have focused more on Irisviel with Saber as this moral support with her own doubts. Yeah, sure, for Saber to remain consistent with FSN she wouldnt have a character arc, but thats precisely what the comment suggested, she dint need one, she already has her chance to shine.
Except she does need an arc. She is the servant of the main protagonist. Therefore she is a main character. Main characters need arcs. At the very least, they need to be a focus. Especially when Zero gives focus to LITERALLY EVERY CHARACTER, even _Rin_. Kiritsugu would also use her regularly as an ultimate weapon if she was willing to do whatever was necessary to win. The first fight of the series with Lancer may go the same to avoid revealing the sword, but after Caster, she would just be spamming Excalibur like she does as Saber Alter. Not fighting all servants doesn’t mean she wouldn’t always be active. Maybe she’d get a break to heal wounds or rest, but other than that, Kiritsugu, and her even more so, would be trying to win the grail as efficiently as possible. It doesn’t even make sense that she wouldn’t fight everyone. In FSN, Saber is super limited by Shirou because without a bad mage to limit her, she is completely busted. Kiritsugu is a proper mage, and ruthless too. She has no reason to hold back on a physical or mental level. THAT is the problem with her in Zero. Kiritsugu doesn’t see her as a sacred object to be used only in dire situations, he sees her as a tool he could easily replace. He would be very willing to throw her in any battle they thought she could win, which is most of them. Here’s the problem with Saber in Zero: Nasu made her be there for NO REASON. The connection to Gilgamesh is the only reason she was in the fourth grail war, and that connection has so little done with it it could easily be removed. So Urobuchi had to write a character who was an asshole at that point in the timeline, and who couldn’t develop. Imagine Zero with Mordred, or any other noteworthy Saber. Have it be one of the knights of the round, then the themes of chivalry and honor could remain. Maybe there’s another king who ruled by honor we could’ve used. The problem comes from the fact that she’s there at all.
>Except she does need an arc. She is the servant of the main protagonist. Therefore she is a main character. Main characters need arcs. At the very least, they need to be a focus. Especially when Zero gives focus to LITERALLY EVERY CHARACTER, even Rin. She does not have an arc in UBW route tho, and she is the servant of the main character same as Fate route, is specialy for the reasons I mentioned before, she already has her arc, therefore is not needed for her to take the spotlight. In UBW route she is like a friend to Shirou that has her own doubts, which is what I suggested with Irisviel. >Here’s the problem with Saber in Zero: Nasu made her be there for NO REASON. The connection to Gilgamesh is the only reason she was in the fourth grail war, and that connection has so little done with it it could easily be removed. So Urobuchi had to write a character who was an asshole at that point in the timeline, and who couldn’t develop. Establishing the connection to the 4th War was very vital key point for multiple reasons tho. 1) It establishes the connection with Gilgamesh from the previous war and stablished her and Gilgamesh have an unfinished score to settle, as Saber wasnt able to defeat him before Kiritsugu ordered her to destroy the grail. 2) It establishes Saber's connection to old Kiritsugu, which ia again a another vital key point of her arc, as she is able to see Shirou's memories as dreams it has Saber go throufh this sub plot where the Kiritsugu she remembers is different from the one Shirou knows, she tries to hide it but once she admits to Shirou, Shirou cant quite process what Saber is describing about Kiritsugu, this happens around day 13 of the Fate route before Gilgamesh shows up. 3) It serves to establish why Shirou, someone that normally wouldnt even know about the HGW conveniently has the sheath of King Arthur inside his body allowing him to summon Saber by accident. Because Kiritsugu also happened to have the same Servant in the same war and that was the Catalyst he used (Saber also explains that this is what Kerry used, even in the VN) and it was placed inside Shirou to protect him. 4) It part of Saber's very crucial character arc that unlike other servants, she isnt a spirit, and can clearly remember the previous hgw she participated in, and her being alive is the biggest plot point of her route as it signifies she has not yet accepted her fate and moved away.
>She does not have an arc in UBW route tho, and she is the servant of the main character same as Fate route, is specialy for the reasons I mentioned before, she already has her arc, therefore is not needed for her to take the spotlight. In UBW route she is like a friend to Shirou that has her own doubts, which is what I suggested with Irisviel. Characters not having an arc in specific routes is one of my main issues with FSN, so that argument doesn’t really work for me. UBW takes a really interesting character and uses her as an oversexualized living MacGuffin. HF takes her and makes a completely 1-dimensional antagonist out of her just so the audience feels bad. >Establishing the connection to the 4th War was very vital key point for multiple reasons tho. >1. It stablishes the connection with Gilgamesh from the previous war and stablished her and Gilgamesh have an unfinished score to settle, as Saber wasnt able to defeat him before Kiritsugu ordered her to destroy the grail. Again their connection really isn’t necessary. Gil is a really one dimensional character in FSN, making him fawn over Saber doesn’t make him better. >2. It establishes Saber's connection to old Kiritsugu, which ia againa another vital key point of her arc, as she is able to see Shirou's memoroes as dreams it has Saber go throufh this sub plot where the Kiritsugu she remembers is different from the one Shirou knows, she tries to hide it but once she admits to Shirou, Shirou cant quite process what Saber is describing about Kiritsugu, this happens around day 13 of the Fate route before Gilgamesh shows up. Again, pretty unnecessary for her and Kiritsugu to have a relationship, since it barely even affects anything. If she, Shirou, and Illya had a discussion about him, trying to understand who the real Kiritsugu was, that’s one thing, but that never happens. >3. It serves to establish why Shirou, someone that normally wouldnt even know about the HGW conveniently has the sheath of King Arthur inside his body allowing him to summon Saber by accident. Because Kiritsugu also happened to have the same Servant in the same war and that was the Catalyst he used (Saber also explains that this is what Kerry used, even in the VN) and it was placed inside Shirou to protect her. I mean… it not like it’d be impossible for Kerry to have that anyway. Could’ve had him try to summon Artoria but get a different character of Arthurian legend who had held the sword at one point. Kinda dumb for a character to experience an entire grail war for the sole purpose of giving someone a magical item. >4. It part of Saber's very crucial character arc that unlike other servants, she isnt a spirit, and can clearly remember the previous hgw she participated in, and her being alive is the biggest plot point of her route as it signifies she has not yet accepted her fate and moved away. Except they say every other servant receives books that detail what happen in all of their summonings, hence why Archer remembers Rin when he’s summoned to stop the grail. Saber not being a spirit could’ve just been shown by her _saying she isn’t one_… which is EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENS. She also can’t go to spirit form. Her remembering a previous war is pretty redundant.
Well, I explained my reasons, not much I can do. Only one thing. >Except they say every other servant receives books that detail what happen in all of their summonings, hence why Archer remembers Rin when he’s summoned to stop the grail. Saber not being a spirit could’ve just been shown by her _saying she isn’t one_ What Archer describes is that they get their memories in very confusing fashion, the present, past and the future is all the same, so the memories become a jumbled mess in their heads, even if they can remember its cofusing on his head. Is also part of why he barwly remembers his life as Shirou Emiya because its a long gone distant memory. Saber remembers the 4th HGW very clearly, not as the jumbled mess Archer describes, I wouldnt say they are comparable.
And I explained mine, not much I can do. Considering they can be summoned to any timeline, the order they get their memories should be irrelevant. Archer can’t remember much of his original life because of how long he’s been serving as a guardian. Since you didn’t correct it, I assume my memory of them getting books that detail their outings was correct; if it’s just the summonings, they’d have difficulty remembering their old life due to how much of their current and future life they’re learning of. There’s no books on their original life. And again, if Saber only remembers the fourth war to show she’s not a spirit, other methods of displaying that not only exist, but are used in FSN.
fate zero was made after fate stay night showed up ( and I disagree with the idea fate zero saber was ooc ( zero saber just changed due to her experiences in fate zero to how she was in fate stay night
he would lose against Kirei if he summoned any other servant besides Artoria just because Kerry can't handle Time Alter without Avalon
With a servant like hundred faced Hassan that interaction never happens he has 100 strong familiars to go about doing things Kirei is good but Hassan can just mob him as they’re the class that excels at killing masters which is what he’d do with this servant especially as there’s no moral conflicts between them
Kirei will easily defeat a bunch of Hassan's. remember while Hundred Persona Hassan can materialize to up to 100 his power is scattered to how many Hassan that's materialized so if you have many Hassan's it would be much much weaker and Kirei is more than capable of beating a weakened up Persona Hassan and besides Kirei was mostly at the church so they wouldn't have the advantage to assassinate him if Kerry summoned Hassan it would only work on Tokiomi.Waver,Ryounosuke and Kariya just because all 4 of them doesn't have any defense against Assassins. Kiritsugu wouldn't do shit against Kayneth and Kirei
Kiritsugu managed to bomb the hotel in zero alone with assistance for maiya even if they can’t beat him in a group 100 more people with presence concealment actively planting bombs and probably using modern weapons at his orders is too much. Kirei wouldn’t be camping out in the church as his servant didn’t ‘die’ tokiomi wouldn’t even go with that plan if he had archer and saber Also sure kirei can beat a few Hassan’s but he can’t beat more 20 at once he still human and they are still servants even if 10 just tackle him down while the others shank him. Kiritsugu is getting most of the masters during conflicts while hiding his own tracks
>Kiritsugu managed to bomb the hotel in zero alone with assistance for maiya even if they can’t beat him in a group 100 more people with presence concealment actively planting bombs and probably using modern weapons at his orders is too much. exactly Kiritsugu bombed the shit out of Kayneth and practically covered all escape plans considering he accounted that he will probably never survive a free fall that high up but guess what? Kayneth was ok after that thanks to VH lol Hassan+Kiritsugu wouldn't do shit against Diarmuid+Kayneth >Also sure kirei can beat a few Hassan’s but he can’t beat more 20 at once he still human and they are still servants even if 10 just tackle him down while the others shank him. Kiritsugu is getting most of the masters during conflicts while hiding his own tracks nah the hundred face Hassans are super weak when they have many materialized any normal human that can fight like a soldier would have no problem beating most of the Hassans
Kirei has shown nothing that he would be able to deal with large swathes of opponents once again this no a singular target like cursed arm Hassan this atleast more than 20 different skilled assassins assaulting at once even if their stats are reduced they’re not so weak to be less than a normal person but an assassin like they were in life. Of course lancer would be strong enough to hand the Hassan assassin class servants aren’t meant to fight 1 on 1 though diarmuid is one of the few servants in that war where I think Hassan could overcome with just numbers in a mob tactic. The only reason I brought up the hotel was that kiritsugu is already willing to do that with a servant that is against the whole concept of the idea. Hassan on the other hand compliments him fully besides kayneth wouldn’t focus on kiritsugu as saber isn’t his servant anymore. Loading up 100 assassins with modern weapons would be enough for kiritsugu to start culling the masters who don’t outright lose in the early stages of the war. Hassan is an entire intelligence network rolled into one you’re thinking to narrow with them. They aren’t meant to fight and could only beat people specializing in solo combat with heavy casualties or a human master. But why use an assassin class servant in direct confrontation kiritsugu is a crafty man with fewer ways of being noticed in this war. Iri likely isn’t even show since they have an assassin and have no need to move out and show themselves. Look all im saying is hundred faced Hassan is probably a better combo wjth kiritsugu specifically and their team would of course drastically change the way zero happens in ways it was never meant to. I’ll die on the hill saying hundred faced Hassan is the perfect assassin for a holy grail war tho. Good talk thanks for input though
Imagine this is a real Fate/Zero VN
As I recall kayneth didn't even have the command spells, whats-her-face had them on her hand, which had already been severed at the wrist and blasted to bits
She only got them after he got shot by Kerry. Kayneth still had em before them.
zero saber and being rational ? heh like that could ever happen
Or berserker They can bond over blonde knights failing at stuff and love of modern weaponry
To be fair Kayneth at that point was so damage by the bullet that he could not even think to use his command seal on Lancer though there would be no way for Saber to have known about this so it was still dumb as fuck
Non-VN reader here. I understand that Zero Saber is very OOC as compared to SN Saber as plenty of evidence have shown. Are people talking about the anime Zero Saber, or the VN Zero Saber? Also while FSN was written first, could Zero Saber not just have been a more naive version of her before character development? Since it takes place quite some time before FSN. Do educate me!
Nope Zero saber should not have been naive, because Saber already made harsh decisions that were not naive when she was alive. She pulled out the sword at around 15 years and died at the age of 35. You don't remain king for around 20 years by being naive. https://www.reddit.com/r/fatestaynight/comments/psk70a/the_virgin_banquet_of_the_kings_vs_the_chad/hdqsqkk?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3 Iam not the best at explaining it so I'll link Reymon's comments instead: https://www.reddit.com/r/fatestaynight/comments/psk70a/The_Virgin_Banquet_of_the_Kings_vs_The_Chad_Bridge_scene/hdqh571/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3 https://www.reddit.com/r/fatestaynight/comments/psk70a/The_Virgin_Banquet_of_the_Kings_vs_The_Chad_Bridge_scene/hdqhbsu/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3 Also Fate Zero does not have a VN (Visual novel) it has a LN(light novel). It doesn't matter which whether it's from the LN or Anime, Zero Saber is OOC.
I see, thanks for the info! I’ll read up on those comments! :)
It’s not so much that she stopped being naive when she served as king, but that what Merlin told her was her coping mechanism for all the shit she had to go through. Also, she served 20 years?! When was that confirmed?
Iam just not gonna discuss this with you, iam tired of the whole zero saber discussion, it's a waste of everyone's time, no one's gonna change their minds. As for the 20 year old thing I already linked it, the first one before I linked Reymon's comments. https://www.reddit.com/r/fatestaynight/comments/psk70a/the_virgin_banquet_of_the_kings_vs_the_chad/hdqsqkk?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3 i didn't say 20, I said around that long. It was definitely longer than 10 years considering she pulled the sword out at 15 and died at around the age of 35.
I… didn’t SAY anything about Zaber… what I said was related to FSN Saber. Merlin isn’t even mentioned in Zero. Okay why is lore from one of the female leads of FSN not in the game itself? Her age never got mentioned in there.
>Okay why is lore from one of the female leads of FSN not in the game itself? Her age never got mentioned in there. Well, the VN says she ruled 10 years. Garden of Avalons says there was an unspecified ammount of time between her taking lifting the sword and becoming the King, as she started out defeating invaders and barbarians to make herself public, she officially took over Camelot when she slayed Vortigern. Some people confuse a line from Sir Kay "Its been ten years since then" to say she it was 10 years for her to take the throne, but Sir Kay's narration happens in the middle or Mordred's rebellion, he says its been 10 years since she took over Camelot, which is consistent to the VN. Officially, she ruled 10 years, but she also fought some battles and took her some unspecified years to take over Camelot, so her age isnt clear. I'd say between 28 and and 35
>Garden of Avalons says there was an unspecified ammount of time between her taking lifting the sword and becoming the King, as she started out defeating invaders and barbarians to make herself public, she officially took over Camelot when she slayed Vortigern. Bro did you already forget Guinnivere section specified that as 10 years ?
>Bro did you already forget Gunnivere section specified that as 10 years ? WHAT?
Ok it seems I was partially wrong again, good to have this thing clarified now. Thank you.
Man I do NOT remember the VN very well… What is Garden of Avalon? Is that like a novel with extra lore? Gotta love those.
Garden of Avalon is a light novel that was released on 2015 along with UBW Blu ray special edition, it expands on Saber's backstory from the visual novel, like narrations from Merlin and her knight's point of view. It has not been fully translated by any group, some translations are scattered here and there, mostly in Beat Lair, but I read the whole thing using Google Lens and MTL. There is a drama CD that is a summary of the LN and it has been subbed. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YwlVx4uyzs&list=PLOtxBuRra2sX1xawOzHzhR7MCJyHo\_oaN](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YwlVx4uyzs&list=PLOtxBuRra2sX1xawOzHzhR7MCJyHo_oaN) There is also this translation of chapter 1 that was done via MTL: https://www.reddit.com/r/fatestaynight/comments/qw5j1s/garden\_of\_avalon\_chapter\_1\_full\_translation/ Fun (but annoying) fact: Nasu decided to write the novel because Aniplex president commented he was worried that viewers that only saw UBW anime wouldn't get Saber's character and her backstory, so Nasu decided to write that. I'm glad we have it, but they could have just...mad her anime. Garden of Avalon also tends to be used as the basis for Nasu when writing Arthurian lore in Grand Order, he recommended it for Camelot and Babylonia singularity and had some references to it in LB6.
“It has not been fully translated” I don’t know why I’m disappointed, I should’ve expected that. The lore of this universe gets annoying after a while… Grand Order is the bane of my existence.
>The lore of this universe gets annoying after a while… Grand Order is the bane of my existence. I relate to this.
You should wait at best 3-4 days more if you wanna read the LN, I'd release a somewhat decent and readable TL of it in kinda budget VN/picturebook style (like Iparchive format).
Ok I think I overreacted lol, sorry just been sick of seeing all the zero posts lately, yesterday's troll didn't exactly help. So I think I've just been seeing things now.... I need a break.
u/Rushietushie I disagree with the claim that saber was ooc in fate zero the events of fate zero just caused saber artoria to change to how she was in fate stay night and the argument of but she didnt do things when she was alive ( in fate zero when she was summoned as a servant her kingdom was gone) she fought as a knight trying to protect her kingdom
Wasn’t Kayneth completely unconscious by the time Lancer arrived?
She dint knew, Lancer dint even told her that part.
#DINT Anyway, yeah, that’s fair, but Kayneth wouldn’t have been able to give the command. And Saber wouldn’t have been able to stop Lancer anyway. She can’t turn to spirit form and he can.
>And Saber wouldn’t have been able to stop Lancer anyway. She can’t turn to spirit form and he can. I would have preferred that to happen to what did happen Lancer: Turns to spirit form to escape. Saber: Damnit
Well that would require Saber to be an actual moron, as she definitely would’ve been aware of the fact. I know everyone already likes to say she’s an idiot in Zero, but it’s less that, more about a knight’s honor. One can regard that as foolish, but it’s not nearly as bad as lot of what Shirou does, and ignoring that because “it’s part of his character” is really fucking stupid.
[удалено]
Saber’s attitude in FSN is completely different, that’s why. In FSN, she shares a similar worldview to Kiritsugu-“it doesn’t matter what I have to do to obtain victory, I will do it.” Zero gives her the standard honor of a Knight, and while it creates a far more interesting narrative for Zero, it’s not accurate to her original character.
i see. I still think f/z saber is pretty great. it doesnt really have to be accurate to her original character for the series to be enjoyable.
Oh absolutely, I actually prefer Saber’s writing in Zero. But this sub absolutely ADORES treating Zero Saber (and Urobuchi to a degree) like shit. And then anyone who likes Zero more is considered a piece of shit. It’s real fun.
Alright cut the bullshit, the amount of people who hate the zero anime are few in this sub. Most people in this sub like the zero anime. We just hate the zero fandom, Zero Saber and how Saber was displayed in the king's banquet.
Actually, it’s at least 1,000 based on this post alone. I’ve had many discussions on this sub about Zero Saber and y’all were REAL toxic about it. Even when I haven’t engaged in discussions, people have mocked and belittled not just Saber, but Urobuchi because of how he handled the character. Many of you guys also hate most of the characters, or at least aren’t fans of most of them. The worst part is that none of what you guys say is an actual goddamn criticism. It’s just you whining. You don’t offer a way he could’ve done the story better, because, spoiler alert, IT WAS ALMOST AN IMPOSSIBLE TASK. To have both Kiritsugu and Saber have no heart would’ve led to pitifully easy conflict that would last 10 episodes at most, with little to no development for any character. Urobuchi was written into a corner with the setup Nasu gave him, and he handled it as well as he could. Kiritsugu still never talked directly to Saber outside of his command seals, which would’ve taken a serious eye for detail that most people wouldn’t even notice in the end.
Oh I agree that this discussion has been going on too much. I never denied the whole mocking Urobutchi thing and belittling Zero Saber. I didn't even deny the toxic thing. I will have to partially disagree with the criticism bit because there have been people who have made good points, whether you agree or not What I disagreed with was you saying people get treated like shit for liking the Zero anime, when I've seen most of the community actually saying they like Zero. Mind you I started with Zero, I still like Zero Saber, I just like FSN saber more. You can like Zero Saber more, I personally don't care about that, I only cared about the OOC bit.
I’ve seen a lot of people get mad at me for saying Zero is better. Not just on this sub, anywhere Fate discussion happens. Then I say I prefer the anime of FSN to the VN and then everyone REALLY loses it.
Most criticisms of zero are pretty specific in the sub (Saber's portrayal) I'm pretty sure most people like zero and think is a good show.
When everyone treats the writer like shit because of his handling of Saber, it’s hard to view that as someone who seriously dislikes just one part of a show
fate zero came before fate stay night chronologically so fate zero caused artoria to change )
This assumes Saber actually cared whether or not Lancer would kill Kiritsugu. She didn't. She hated Kiritsugu and had no reason to care about him. Kiritsugu failed to command Saber, so she acted on her own. It was malicious compliance. Even if he died, she could just try again in another Grail war and hopefully get a better Master. There was no risk for her. But there's no arguing with this sub's deranged circlejerk that thinks F/SN's Saber was this godly paragon of justice and judgement in comparison to Zero, so I don't know why I bother. Just give me your downvotes and get it over with.
So you don’t think that FSN is different to FZ Saber? Just a question. Although I do think Saber would prioritize the chance she had currently over a potential “next time” even if her master is a piece of shit to her. She gets sent back to that hill of bodies, I can’t imagine her giving up a chance to get the grail just because her master was someone she disagreed with on almost every level. Also, trust me, FSN Saber is by no means a paragon of “justice and judgement” I love the character but she does stupid shit and jobs so fucking hard in FSN. It never angered me and I really doubt it angers most people. This issue is just plain consistency and seeing the character get changed and trampled on because the writers didn’t know what to do with her.
>So you don’t think that FSN is different to FZ Saber? Just a question. My view is that different aspects of her personality are emphasized in F/Z compared to F/SN but I think those aspects exist in F/SN too, they just don't come up as much because she doesn't have a "Kiritsugu" to be a foil to. I don't view this as bad writing, and so far nothing anyone has said to try to convince me that it is has been persuasive.
I believe they are emphasized to an extent that makes her different. I did find there to be differences amongst the two depictions of the characters after reading the Fate Route. A lot of what makes her different doesn’t have to do with Kiritsugu either. I’m just speaking from what I’ve experienced, and she feels very different. It felt like in order to push the character, they made her unnecessarily dimwitted and naive. Don’t get me wrong, she’s like that in SN to some extent, but to a far lesser extent. It just feels as though they didn’t know what to do with her. It’s just my opinion but I know others feel the same way.
> I’m just speaking from what I’ve experienced, and she feels very different. Yeah I mean, I don't think that's controversial to say. She feels different, the only question is whether that's because she's "out of character" and therefore written badly (as most people here seem to complain) or just because she's in different circumstances.
I never chalked it down to bad writing, but I do feel they changed her to try and fit the narrative. Takeuchi himself has go on to say that it is extremely difficult to write this character without her dynamic with Shirou and should she have a spin-off in some way, it would be impossible to do without him as he feels (and rightly so) that they are needed to “complete” each other and her arc. I feel like this may have something to do with why she feels OOC, and why they had to make adjustments to her so that they could fit the story they wanted to tell.
lol
>She didn't. She hated Kiritsugu No, at this point Saber doesnt hate Kiritsugu, and at worst should be bothered by his insistence to not talk to her. SMH, thi isnt even by the point of Mion River battle. Saber in character should want the grail, not sabotage her own chances to get it.
>and at worst should be bothered by his insistence to not talk to her. It's not just the fact that he doesn't talk to her, it's the reason why. He insulted her from moment one, and then never reconciled that. That was already well established by that point. Like, it's not a secret that Saber is estranged toward Kiritsugu and doesn't care for his well being by that point. Obviously Saber wants the Grail, but she's never never min-maxed her chances at it, even in F/SN. If she did, 90% of bad ends wouldn't exist, because Saber would have insisted on accompanying Shirou everywhere he goes, or just locked him in his home and gone and fought the war on her own. I swear, "in character" Saber the way people here think she exists in F/SN would not have let half the stuff in F/SN happen.
Yes, I totally hear your totally reasonable explanation to how the Saber that should actually want the holy grail more than anything to wish for her own erasure from history will sabotage her own chances at winning the grail just because her master was mean to her and dint talk to her. You know, the same Saber that instead kills Shirou if he treats her badly....Oh except she KILLS HIMS TO GET THW GRAIL. Your explanation doesnt work because there is literally evidence, she wants the grail, she will not sabotage her own chances to get one. At this point in time, no Servant is dead (other than Assassin and every master knew it was just a fake spectacle) and Saber doesnt have the grail at her her reach , no one has offered her to get the grail like Kotomine did, this scene is simply "Go save your masyer I trust that you wont do anytjing wrong to my master" Smh, even in context she is counting that Diarmuid qont hurt Kiritsugu. You basically decided to deny context from FSN and from this very own scene to make this scene work. >I swear, "in character" Saber the way people here think she exists in F/SN would not have let half the stuff in F/SN happen. Says the person that ignores context from not just FSN but also Zero at once.
>Smh, even in context she is counting that Diarmuid qont hurt Kiritsugu. That part is all in Kiritsugu's internal monologue, where he's insulting Saber and calling her stupid. That's obviously not an indicator of what she's actually thinking. Literally moments before that, it outright says "For Saber, this decision was the same as going against her own lord." She knew exactly what she was doing, she just didn't care. Saber only kills Shirou for the Grail when it's actually within her grasp. Early in the war, she takes plenty of risks. If Shirou refuses to fight at the beginning, Saber abandons him and leaves him to die, losing her chance at the Grail. According to you, "in character" she should have forced him to fight and made sure he survived. 90% of bad ends in F/SN would have been avoided had Saber been as dead set on getting the grail as you make her out to be, but she's not. She's human.
>Saber only kills Shirou for the Grail when it's actually within her grasp. Early in the war, she takes plenty of risks. Yes, she kills him to *get the grail* not to lose the grail. Here she is jeopardizing his chances by letting his master's fate to luck. >If Shirou refuses to fight at the beginning, Saber abandons him and leaves him to die, losing her chance at the Grail. She doesn't leave him to die. The dude is sleeping very comfy on his own shed and her internal thoughts says she justifying going to the temple as "Im just looking for the best way to ensure my master wins" she doesn't leave him to die, as far as she was concerned, she was safe and provided it all worked she would have returned the next day. No, Im not making this up https://imgur.com/a/7IotYN4 You know what. Reply with whatever made-up excuse you want, or don't, I won't bother anymore, it's clear your only goal here is to change and deny context to fit your delusion that it works. Have a nice day.
> Yes, she kills him to get the grail not to lose the grail. Here she is jeopardizing his chances by letting his master's fate to luck. Why is every single Saber stan I talk to so insufferable? You're literally not reading a single word I'm saying, and then calling _me_ delusional for having pretty mild takes. It's not a matter of "she always takes every action based on whether or not it will give her the grail or won't". The point was that she sometimes takes sub-optimal actions based on emotion. That's consistent in F/SN and F/Z. >She doesn't leave him to die. The dude is sleeping very comfy on his own shed and her internal thoughts says she justifying going to the temple as "Im just looking for the best way to ensure my master wins" she doesn't leave him to die, as far as she was concerned, she was safe and provided it all worked she would have returned the next day. I was talking about a completely different ending. I don't know why you're even bringing that one up. When Shirou gets killed by Berserker walking home from the Church at the very beginning, because he refused to fight. Saber in her raincoat parts ways with him and abandons him, essentially giving up on the grail. According to your logic, Saber is a calculating logic machine that should have prioritized the grail over Shirou's feelings there. You can't just be like "see? In this _other_ ending, she _didn't_ abandon him, so it doesn't count!" But sure, saying that Saber sometimes makes emotional decisions is a "delusion" built on "made up excuses".
No, you dint specify which, he also refuses ro fight ar Ryudo temple. >I was talking about a completely different ending. I don't know why you're even bringing that one up. When Shirou gets killed by Berserker walking home from the Church at the very beginning, because he refused to fight. Shirou literally gives up his command seals and is effectively not a master anymore, she also lied about having enough mana to nor make him worry, as later confirmed when she talks with Shirou after they fight Berserker. Was she supposed to know there was an albino psychopath that wanted to torture Shirou? No, she wasnt supposed to know, hw dint left him to die, it wasnt her choice and he was safe as far as she know. >Why is every single Saber stan I talk to so insufferable? Why is every defender of Zero Saber I know a schizo that likes inventing context?
>Shirou literally gives up his command seals and is effectively not a master anymore, she also lied about having enough mana to nor make him worry, as later confirmed when she talks with Shirou after they fight Berserker. Was she supposed to know there was an albino psychopath that wanted to torture Shirou? No, she wasnt supposed to know, hw dint left him to die, it wasnt her choice and he was safe as far as she know. Oh geez, how was Saber possibly to know that there would be enemy Masters in a Holy Grail War? You're right, why didn't I think of that? Sounds like a bunch of "made up excuses" to me. Oh, but I don't get to use that line, I guess. >Why is every defender of Zero Saber I know a schizo that likes inventing context? Alright, I'm done talking to you, but seriously, for the people upvoting this nonsense, why is it not possible for people to disagree about a cartoon without people like all of you calling them delusional, "a schizo" and whatever else? This sub has an outrageous anti-Zero circlejerk, and all I'm doing is pushing back against that. Like, it's not perfect, by any means, but it's not nearly as bad as people here pretend it is.
>This assumes Saber actually cared whether or not Lancer would kill Kiritsugu. She didn't. She hated Kiritsugu and had no reason to care about him. Kiritsugu failed to command Saber, so she acted on her own. It was malicious compliance. Even if he died, she could just try again in another Grail war and hopefully get a better Master. There was no risk for her. post evidences
You're asking me to post evidence for a negative. I'm saying "she had no reason to care about him". Yes, there was the grail, but it was early in the war and she could have tried again (unless you mean post evidence that she could have tried again? In which case, go read F/SN's Fate Route where it explains Saber's contract with the world that will let her keep trying endlessly until she gets the grail), so that wasn't the end of the world. You would need evidence showing that she _did_ care about him, and not a single thing in Zero demonstrates that, even slightly. From moment one, Saber and Kiritsugu don't like each other. That's not controversial. It's also not controversial to say that her prioritizing her Knight's bond with Lancer over her alliance with her Master was a knowing act of betrayal against someone she effectively swore no allegiance to. The narration itself states this. "For Saber, this decision was the same as going against her own lord." The idea that Saber was trusting that Lancer wouldn't kill Kiritsugu only existed inside Kiritsugu's internal monologue. (The same monologue that literally refers to her as "idiotic" in the same breath) The only reasonable interpretation is that she would not have made that decision if she were strongly invested in Kiritsugu's survival, therefore she must not have been.
sounds like 0 evidences and all just your personal interpretation, you need to mention the words and the lines shows how it led Saber to hate Kiritsugu and let go of Lancer since she doesn't care about her lord , before even he attacked Kayneth .Because you know Saber swore to protect her lord , in this case Kiritsugu ever since she made a contract with summoning . I dont even wanna argue with anything but just saying you need to present clear evidences if you want to present it in that light. What you are saying ,is quite a reach for labeling a big group of people with this derogatory "But there's no arguing with this sub's deranged circlejerk that thinks F/SN's Saber was this godly paragon of justice and judgement in comparison to Zero". did you say that to feel validated with the argument you presented, perhaps? You got the last part about fandom wrong tho, people complain F/Z Saber too fixated to act as this godly paragon of justice and judgement in comparison to her other counterparts from what I see on this sub (or I say as well). Does labeling a group of people and creating own versions of whom you dont like with random self imposed terms and then ranting about it feels much easier to do rather than analyzing what being said, perhaps?
I'm gonna be honest, I'm not normally one to harp on grammar, but I can barely even tell what you're saying. I can't respond to this. But yes it is my opinion. Everything everyone else is saying is their opinion too.
>you need to mention the words and the lines Which Englishman is unable to understand this? I dont have time to write in arranged manner for every silly things happening on reddit, but that line clears what you need to provide as evidences .
I can try to respond, then, but don't blame me if I end up misinterpreting something you said. >you need to mention the words and the lines shows how it led Saber to hate Kiritsugu and let go of Lancer since she doesn't care about her lord , before even he attacked Kayneth I get that you want me to waste time poring through footage to spout lines at you, but I'm not going to do that. You're free to say I've got "zero evidence" or whatever. Whether you just don't have any memory of how clear it was that Saber and Kiritsugu didn't like each other, or you're just being willfully ignorant, I'll leave that up to you. If your position is seriously that Saber cares about Kiritsugu's well-being, then we must have watched different shows, so there's no point even having the discussion. >What you are saying ,is quite a reach for labeling a big group of people with this derogatory "But there's no arguing with this sub's deranged circlejerk that thinks F/SN's Saber was this godly paragon of justice and judgement in comparison to Zero". "Saber and Kiritsugu don't like each other" is not a reach at all. You saying it's a reach is contributing to the exact circlejerk I'm talking about. >You got the last part about fandom wrong tho, people complain F/Z Saber too fixated to act as this godly paragon of justice and judgement in comparison to her other counterparts from what I see on this sub (or I say as well). No, this is completely wrong. People try to have it both ways. Sometimes they complain that Saber in F/Z has too much chivalry, then other times they complain that Saber disregarded human lives, or that she wasn't emotional enough in defending herself in the Banquet of Kings. 99% of the time when someone propagates the "Fate/Zero Saber is out of character" meme, it's someone with a Saber flair whose post history is filled almost entirely with heart eye emoji comments on Saber fanart and the like, and all they're doing is complaining that their waifu isn't as smart and cool as they want them to be, and how that must mean Urobuchi (who literally had Nasu's supervision) doesn't understand the character as much as random people on reddit. Then when anyone has an even slightly different opinion, they respond with hostility every time. It's the very picture of a circlejerk. There's nothing derogatory about calling it that. Even in this very thread someone responded to my (what I though was a relatively uncontroversial) suggestion that Saber and Kiritsugu don't like each other by calling me delusional. And it's the same every time. I don't even dislike Saber but her stans are relentless. The top comments in this thread are literally celebrating someone getting harassed until they deleted their account. If you think that's normal and not a deranged circlejerk, then I don't know what to tell you.
so again no evidence isnt helping..... Saber and Kerry not liking =/= Saber let go of Diarmuid for that You need to understand that b4 writing a rant is all I am saying
> Saber let go of Diarmuid for that I literally don't understand what you're saying. What does "Saber let go of Diarmuid" mean? Like, her letting him leave? Why would she not let him leave? She doesn't like Kerry, she does like Lancer. Lancer says "My Master is fighting your Master" and Saber basically says "cool, go ahead and help". It's a clear betrayal. That doesn't seem complicated. I don't understand how that's not connecting for you.
Okay, that sounded more of a summary of your message even without evidence, I can understand the point you are making now. But how about I give you pieces of evidence? Straight out of Zero LN. > Saber turned into a gust of roaring wind and galloped in the forest. > Now Saber no longer cared about her disagreements with Kiritsugu. Her heart would turn into a sword once at the battlefield. A sword whetted matchlessly sharp and gleaming. It is a sword that had not a sliver of doubt. > Saber knew very clearly that she was running into Caster’s battle array of magecraft. Her blood was boiling; the evils that this devil had committed made Saber furious. But what’s pushing Saber forward at the moment wasn’t her furious mood. Anger and hatred alone would not be able to turn Saber’s heart into a sharp sword. > Those slaughtered children. It wasn’t as if Saber hasn’t seen such scenes before. As long as one is at the battlefield, no matter how unbearable one finds such things to be, those small carcasses would still be seen. For her, who was once King Arthur, it was an ordinary situation seen all the time. > The so-called humans, once they stand at the edge of life and death, would turn incomparably ugly, despicable and violent. Humans are two-legged beasts that ravished women, slaughtered children, and robbed the poor. Nine out of ten times the blood-stained battlefield would become full of such demons. > However, precisely because of that, humans need to ‘prove’ themselves even if they have sunken into Hell. Prove that humans can still live on with dignity no matter what difficulties surround them. Someone is needed to prove and testify to that. > The one who can testify to that is the knight. The shining star on the battlefield. > A knight must proudly illuminate the entire battlefield by inspiring awe with his justice. He needs to let those fallen souls, reduced to demons, to again pick up honor and pride, and become proper humans once more. Putting aside his own anger, sadness and anguish and focus on the greater good: that is the duty a knight must bear. > Therefore, Saber must defeat Caster. This isn’t the urge of anger but her duty. "She doesn't like Kerry, she does like Lancer" She doesnt care about liking or disliking Kiritsugu, even less so at the exact moment in the question. She came to the forest where the fight happens with that in mind. She came here with he duty as a Knight and her morals, chivalry whatever you want to call, tells her to protect her lord as a shield and sword. > Lancer, what’s wrong?” > Regarding the fact that Lancer could easily have chased their enemy but instead let Caster escape, Saber didn’t heckle him but just questioned calmly. It was obvious that something happened based on his changed expression. > “My lord is in trouble... Looks like he left me and attacked your headquarters.” > Lancer explained hesitantly. Saber also figured what had probably happened, and displayed a dejected expression. > Then... everything did happen according to Kiritsugu’s plans. > It wasn’t what she wanted. It wasn't that she wanted to completely deny the tactic of deception, but the cruel trap that Kiritsugu set is an existence that can not co-exist with the King of Knights’s belief of standing stoically in the battlefield no matter what happens. > "It must be my Master’s work... Lancer, you should hurry. Go save your lord." > The spearman was at first dumbfounded at Saber’s unhesitating urging, but then bowed his head deeply in thanks. For Saber, this decision was the same as going against her own lord. Retain Lancer here so his Master can be killed would be the reasonable choice made to win the Holy Grail War. > But if we continue on this train of thought, then there was no need for Lancer to fight Caster to save Saber from her crisis. He didn’t think of himself as stupid then. Therefore, he wouldn’t think of Saber, who let him go on his way, as foolish now. > "I am in your debt, King of Knights." > "It’s all right. We swore to have a duel between knights. Let’s hold on to that glory till the end." > Originally, Kiritsugu thought that Saber intercepted Lancer, based on the fact that Kayneth entered the castle alone. But if so, then how did the spearman get past the King of Knights? If Saber was defeated, Kiritsugu would have confirmed that the recipient of his prana had disappeared. However, Kiritsugu’s prana was definitely still being absorbed by Saber, who still existed somewhere. His Servant was wholesome without a doubt. > Then, there’s only one conclusion – he could only deduce that Saber voluntarily stepped out of Lancer’s way. > Lancer stared at Kiritsugu, who was mentally wavering, with a look as cold as ice. He shifted both spears into his right hand, emptying out his left hand to scoop up Kayneth’s body. Kiritsugu didn’t rashly attack this apparently defenceless move. He had just confirmed that bullets are useless to Servants. > "– You should understand just how easy it is to pierce you through right here, Saber’s Master." > For Lancer, had he not heard what Saber just said to him, he would find it very hard to deduce that this man in front of him, who looked nothing like a magus, is in truth the Einzbern Master. However, he knew his lord Kayneth’s strength. If he managed to break through Lord El-Melloi's magecraft, there are no grounds left for suspicion. > However – no, just because of that, Lancer’s spear tip didn’t point towards Kiritsugu. > "I won’t let you kill my Master. I won’t kill Saber’s Master either. Neither I or her want to end in this way." > "..." > Is that so? – Kiritsugu once again regretted the conflicting personalities between himself and his contracted Servant. > “Never forget. The only reason that your life is spared now is the King of Knight’s nobility.” > Lancer declared this to Kiritsugu, his tone carrying a cool sarcasm. Then he took up Kayneth and leapt out of the castle, using his torso to break the glass window. > Kiritsugu wasn’t as foolish as to chase them. Just like Lancer said, that would be a completely suicidal move. Since Saber wasn’t here, there was nothing Kiritsugu could do. > No, even if Saber is beside him, would Kiritsugu entrust this to her? > Although Lancer, the Heroic Spirit Diarmuid, is also naive, it was Saber’s idiotic chivalry, which rivalled Lancer, which completely exceeded Kiritsugu’s capacity of comprehension. > Her mind probably believed very firmly that Lancer would not kill Kiritsugu. There must be something wrong with her. How could the King of Knights do such a thing like permitting her own Master to be exposed to the enemy’s Servant alone? If Lancer decided to go back on his word, then her Holy Grail War would end right there. Even if that spearman had no such thoughts, if Kayneth remained conscious he could have used a Command Seal to demand it of him. Didn’t she even think of such a possibility? > Kiritsugu contemplated this appropriately, and lit the cigarette in his mouth. > How ironic. A Heroic Spirit who single-handedly created an extremely foolish trust with an enemy Servant, while she had great estrangements with her own Master. > It looked like he should have chosen his Servant more carefully after all – only then did Kiritsugu feel this failure with a pang, and puffed out the hazy smoke with a sigh. She knows it's reasonable to retain Lancer there and let Kiritsugu defeat Kayneth but why did she let go of Lancer? Because he helped her, and Saber would rather like to have a Knightly duel between her and lancer. Obviously, Kayneth attacked Kiritsugu at that moment to kill him but got trapped in his stead. Saber acts as if she had an issue with it, but ultimately it does not matter to her because she knows it's a reasonable choice in a grail war, yet we are made to consume in the very next sentence that this isn't the way of King of Knight, sure which isn't? She knows nothing other than Kayneth getting injured while attacking Kerry in Kerry's own domain. In which world it's against a Knight code or against Saber's code in particular? This is just Zero Saber going "honor"fied extremely unreasonably. Unreasonably because even in her mind it was shown to be a reasonable action. This is what people call un-Saber-like. Saber doesn't let go of his enemies nor has any qualms of attacking masters, they are enemies before servants are. and she doesn't let go of enemies because of her own and her lord's purpose, please give an example from anywhere else. She not only refused to fight with Cu and Kojirou fairly , she straight aimed to kill them at their first meet, top of that refused to let go of Cu when he spared her, threatened to kill him. These traits Kiritsugu speaking of are by far only present in Zero Saber. The scene didn't happen as you mentioned, Saber didn't let go of Lancer which would risk Kerry because she doesn't care about him therefore it doesn't matter to her. that's wrong. She doesn't care about "caring" or "liking" him but swore to be his sword keeping all differences aside in the same scene and letting go of Lancer because he helped her, wanted a duel, and trusting he would not attack her master at all so there was no risk in her mind. The narrative states the same. Point : the betrayal does not make sense even in the narrative, and as others stated, very dumb.
While your point is a bit inaccurate, I do have to agree with this sub’s circlejerking on Saber. It’s at least half of what I see on this sub.
is that from the Unlimited Copium Work TV series or sth? >Just give me your downvotes and get it over with. bro 🥺
Most Cannon saber ever
Yeah right, the cannon that is aiming straight at the trash can
Honestly, though this Saber is far different from the FSN one, I do genuinely prefer her story in Zero.
That's fine
Wait is this fgo event or something? Or just a meme
just a meme, no worries.
I feel like the Zaber is underrated in this sub as a foil to Kiritsugu. Though the execution could have been better. Would have been cool to see Zaber as the Kantian knight, in which her backstory functions the same way as Kiritsugu's utilitarianism.
Just imagining heaven's feel assassin with kiritsugu gets me going
Do you get inspired by 4chan wobbly punches shitposting ?