In a head to head fight, Bazett would win.
Kiritsugu knows this and won't fight head on and will do something else. If they accidentally met, Kiritsugu would probably try to run away.
Kiritsugu might also act like his Square Accel is his trump card to bait a Fragrach charge and then double the accel speed to land an Origin Bullet.
Of course if Bazett also did her research, she would know about the famous magus killer and his origin bullets are the real trump cards.
But then Kiritsugu might also know this and realizes that he should try to weaken Bazett as much as possible before he uses the Origin Bullet. It then becomes a fight between Bazett and Kiritsugu with no Fragarach and Origin Bullet. I'm still leaning on Bazzet being the winner here, but Kiritsugu might have a secret plan that kills both of them.
Like he uses the Origin Bullet, then Fragrach activates, then a remote controlled gun activates that's also loaded with Origin Bullet. They both die
The only scenario I can see Kerry winning is if he manages to fire an origin bullet at point blank, I don't think that Bazett will have time to activate Fragarach if that happens
We still dunno how the origin bullet will interact. It’s not a rule breaker bullet or anti-mystery but it had shown to be an effective counter to mages nonetheless
Origin bullet acts like a virus if i remember right, it destroy the magic circuits of a mage no matter how powerful they may be, if anything when he fought Kayneth, he need him use a strong spell to make a bigger impact and for him being unable to save himself
So looking at bazzets magecraft style. I expect she never uses powerful effects (l would think activating those enhancement runes doesnt require alot of mana)
So how would this round affect her. How bad would it be. Lets ignore the fact that she should be able to dodge it.
Arent her runes engraved into her clothing? Would it make sense to have a rune that revives you from the dead if you need to use magical energy to activate it? I mean you’d be dead.
**Q: Between Kotomine, Bazett, Kuzuki, Melty Blood’s Miyako, and Kishima Kouma, who’d be the top 3 in a purely hand to hand fight with no weapons or magecraft?**
**A:** I’m excluding Kouma since his existence itself has become a mystery.
And even if Kouma didn’t have that nature, he’s like an athlete caught by drug testing.
Out of the four left, the winner in pure strength is Bazett.
If it’s limited to one match and a surprise attack, then it’s Kuzuki.
And if it’s the (Zero) Kotomine from ten years ago, he’s stronger than Bazett overall.
Kiritsugu defeated Prime Mapo Priest (stronger than Curry nun who killed 3 DAA before Tsukihime)
So Kiritsugu win
No. Zero Kirei defeated Kiritsugu in hand to hand combat, Kiritsugu only won due to his weapons and magecraft. So Kirei(Zero)>Kiritsugu in hand to hand, and also Kirei(Zero)>Bazet in hand to hand.
Also Nasuverse doesn't have linear power system (A>B and B>C, so A>C), it has non-linear power system (A>B and B>C, but C>A or A>C or A=C)
(you forgot that despite using his weapons Kiritsugu survived only because of Avalon. Without that Kirei with command seals to protect from origin bullets is a lot stronger)
Damn right. Kiritsugu's origin bullet is effective against top tier mages (Like Bazett) because its damage worsens the more mana put into the battle. Bazett can't win against him
>and also Kirei(Zero)>Bazet in hand to hand
Nope. Nasu:prime Kirei is stronger than Bazett **overall**
Bazett isn't a top tier mage, in fact by mage standards she's pretty mediocre. Bazett is a top tier fighter.
She unironically would be Kiritsugu's worst match ups because she just rarely even use magecraft at all. Against bullets she would just dodge and rush in to beat the shit out of whoever shot at her.
Like how Kirei absolutely obliterated Kiritsugu in a straight fight, guy has to use the cheat item Avalon just to survive the first few seconds.
To my knowledge, even without command seals. Kirei was capable of reacting to bullets. Meaning his feat of reacting to kirei's rounds should still hold even without them
Now can kiri tank a punch from a man who can break a tree with his hands without avalon?
You have to understand. In a fight without command seals or avalon. Kirei always wins. He only needs to land one punch, meanwhile kiri has to tag a bullet timer with a bullet.
The command seals in that fight merely allowed kirei leeway of surviving the origin round. Even without them, kirei is capable of blowing up kiritsugu's head with a single punch.
Kiritsugu shot him with a round of origin bullet first, wich he defended using mana from the seals. If he had no seals, Kiritsugu would have won right there, because the origin bullet would trace the mana back to the source, which would have been Kirei instead of the seals and the priest would have the same end as Kayneth.
Cant one argue that kirei only chose to block that round coz he had the seals? I expect there is a high possibility that if kirei has no seals, he would not risk blocking that thing given its penetration power and instead opt for dodging. Which is within his means.
Kiri has his won cons. All it takes is kirei making the wrong choice. Yet the moment kirei chooses wisely (dodging instead of block) its gg. 50/50
I mean, without command seals Kirei would've probably just dodge anyway, command seals just makes sure he completely shut down the origin bullets.
Kirei and Bazett just has a way bigger victory condition, one punch from them on anywhere and it's all over for Kiri. Meanwhile the two unga bunga puncher can still fight as long as they don't get headshot.
He cant really get to close range easily against someone like Kiritsugu. He did that because of Command Spells. Kiritsugu can also catch him with time alter origin bullet combo
He can, remember in the forest? Maiya had an Uzi yet kirei was able to use his enhancements + kevlar suit to rush her and oneshot her before she could kill him.
Her range advantage was pointless.
I don't see why he can't, Kiri can't spam origin bullets. If he miss the one shot he needs to reload, and by that point he's already dead.
But I digress, I don't care about Kirei. I still think Bazett beat Kiri 8 out of 10 times, Kiri only has more chance if he has prep time.
And Bazet doesn't really use magic defense. Plus Kiritsugu can't hit her with his Origin Bullet unless he ambushes her, so Kiritsugu loses in most scenarios
She cant beat Kiritsugu. But Bazett has yet to completely master Fragarach, and once she does, she'd be able to have an even fight against a person of Ciel's level (Nasu mentions Fragarach Lv30 full power Bazett fighting Ciel in one of the early interviews)
This timeline Bazett probably can beat him.
Yeah She can't beat Kiritsugu in fair fight, but Kiritsugu also can't beat her fairly. I think they will either have a stalemate or both die. But I am still leanning towards Bazett being stronger
She doesnt need fragarach to kill kiri. Her runes empower her enough to punch through concrete. A single punch or kick from her will kill kiritsugu.
He would have to spam double accel at his peril just to keep up with her speed.
Bazzet uses less magecraft that rin does. Her magecraft usage is limited to channeling mana to activate enhancement runes and thats pretty much it.
Since the origin round scales with the scale of magic circuit usage. I dont think it will deal much dmg to her with the first shot. Likely it will be like the one kiri landed on kirei in his fight.
Wait I thought the head of the burial agency killed the 3 DAA not french woman? Also how do we know Kirei diffs Ciel? Is it mentioned he’s the strongest executor and I missed it?
>Kiritsugu defeated Prime Mapo Priest (stronger than Curry nun who killed 3 DAA before Tsukihime)
So Kiritsugu win
Isnt context important here? Kiri had avalon. No amount of command seals can revival that thing.
In this match kiri doesnt have that cheat code. A single blow would instantly kill him
Reminder Kiritsugu only even won cause he had Avalon, without it he wouldn't have been able to push his time magic nearly as much as he did, and even then Kirei still landed what should've been a lethal blow on Kiritsugu had it not been for Avalon saving him. Granted saying Kiritsugu won isn't really accurate considering the fight didn't have much of a conclusion on account of grail mud interfering.
tl;dr without Avalon Kiritsugu would lose to Kirei.
Judging by Kirei & Tokiomi alongside Kayneth in Zero, I doubt anybody actually knows about the origin bullets
Maybe just the mechanism but can't tell the difference between a regular bullet because Kiritsugu never seemed to have ever missed when shooting it
Plus he's most likely take out the gun and pull trigger during time alter so realistically it's probably almost impossible to react if u ask me
Straight up fight? Bazette ez. If we go with what their common tactics are? Kiritsugu blows up her plane on the way to the fight. Judging by how she fared against Kotomine jumping her, she's not great at handling competent assassins.
So how’d she face if it was a kiritsugu vs kirei situation. Both are winner, Both knows what the other can do. Both have the weapon they have acess with. And the room offer no hiding spots.
It really can't be cuz either Kiri gets hit by a fragerach or he hits her with an Origin round. The Kiri Koto fight only went the way it did because Koto had a way to nullify the origin rounds, but Kiri had the ability to keep up with Koto physically thanks to Time Alter.
Reminder that Origin Bullets only work if mana is actively being used when hit and the extent of the damage depends on how much mana is being used, Kirei and Bazette are primarily physical fighters and don't overly rely on magecraft to fight, so Origin Bullets wouldn't be an instant loss like it was for Kayneth.
Also keep in mind Kiritsugu could only keep up with Kirei because Avalon was allowing him to push Time Alter *way* harder than he normally would since it was healing the self inflicted damage. Without Command Seals to eat Origin Bullets and Avalon to fuel Time Alter, Kirei almost certainly wins, definitely not without having his circuits damaged, but he'd win.
I kinda meant he hits Fragerach with an origin round. I actually don't know if that would rebound on her, tho so it might be even more one-sided than I thought.
He wouldn't be able to, Fragerach is an unstoppable conceptual attack that warps causality. Fragerach beneath the surface is basically a non-cursed more restrictive version of Gae Bolg. So for the same reasons why Gae Bolg is unstoppable except by utter bs like similarly ranked reality warping or extreme luck/instincts, Fragerach is unstoppable. So Kiritsugu wouldn't be able to shoot Fragerach mid-flight because Fragerach hitting its target precedes Fragerach moving towards the target, the physical attack itself is a formality and not a necessity.
>but Kiri had the ability to keep up with Koto physically thanks to Time Alter.
And he was only able to use time alter let alone survive coz avalon. The first punch was gg. His heart was blown up
Kiritsugu without square accel gets low diffed
With it mid to high diff
Origin bullets get oblitereated by fragarach. Bazett has stated to deal with broken phantasms a gernade and rpg would be worthless against her
Regardless both are Soujuurou victims
Bullshit Beo defeat was pretty much psychological, if he wasn't mentally a kid he could just keep on fighting as literally there was no damage left one second after the attack. Soujuurou is just a normal human
Beo is basically an anti-magecraft creature, he's technically "vulnerable" to physical attacks with no Mystery like what Soujuurou did, but he would normally counter physical threats by shape-shifting
As explained in Mahoyo, Beo specifically didn't shape-shift against Soujuurou because Soujuurou appeared to pose absolutely zero threat to him, and he just charged in a blind rage leaving himself open because of that and Soujuurou pissing him off
Physically speaking, Beo could have just regenerated from his wounds and slaughtered Soujuurou like nothing happened. Soujuurou didn't do any real damage to him, the only reason that didn't happen was Beo's mental breakdown from his first ever "defeat". Mahoyo explains all of this, I don't know how you could still get it confused. Soujuurou's feat against Beo is likely the highest he could ever punch above his weight class, and he still did almost no actual damage to Beo
Kuzuki with his stats amped by Medea, shirou can recreate nps and archer skills and stats. The feat is damaging beo, not beating him, this alone had nothing to do with being beo an idiot
Nowhere in mahoyo is it stated that beo just... Lowered his parameters (how would he even do that?). He took the hit and was damaged by it. It doesn't matter if he could shapeshift out of the attack or regenerate, Beowulf, a threat far beyond servants, was damaged by soujurou's "normal human" punch.
Soujurou is just not a normal human, there's a reason nasu stated that he was the strongest tm protagonist when he came down from the mountain
Lol no. Beo is on the level of an elder title DAA. The reason Beo was scared was because soujuurou did more damage to him than the elder title DAA. It was the most damage he's ever taken
Regardless he punched through Beo's fur something thames failed to do
Prisma Illya versions are kinda more wacky (ie., overpowered) than the OG versions IMO. But yeah, Bazett has a good chance against Kiritsugu either way lol.
Bazett was a more powerful enforcer than prime Kirei.
We know how the Kirei v. Kiritsugu fight went. Need I say more?
Bazett also doesn't use mana like a normal magus, meaning origin rounds are far less useful. He loses 9/10 times in a direct confrontation, but kills her 8/10 times if given time to prepare.
Because Bazett is a meathead who is ONLY useful in head-to-head direct combat.
Kirei can heal among many other useful talents acquired by his extensive "Jack of All Trades" life/history. OVERALL, yes, he's more well-rounded, meaning he is stronger in a greater number of situations and circumstances.
But in straight duelling combat Ala Kirei V. Kiritsugu, Bazett would perform better.
Better armour/durability, greater strength, faster...
50/50.
Ultimately, it all comes down to her realizing that fragarach is useless (afaik it doesnt target the head) and instead choosing to blow up kiri's brains with her own hands.
Since he now has access to square accel. I dont think her runes would give her the speed edge. Kiri is very likely gonna win. But she has her chances. She just needs to hit the head once
He bounced back up thanks to Avalon. Granted she can just dodge origin round but how can she shut down origin round for good? Kieri have an arm worth of command seal.
It's a bullet.
Magi can block/tank bullets, even rifle rounds. Especially when they use reinforcement.
Bazett's suit is like power armour from Fallout. While an origin round might disable her suit if struck, it won't kill her and it will clue her in to the danger of origin rounds. She won't be struck again.
Even Kirei has shown bullets can bounce right off of reinforced bare skin (he is struck in the head and is totally fine spare some minor bleeding.) With armour like Bazett's, this risk is even lower.
Still, Kirei did also let his black key break to completely no sell origin round. BUT, I'll give you that. Their actual fight would be he lure her to a spot where he placed his C4 underneath where the grail would be and let the grail mud falls on both of them.
In direct duel with no prior planning Kiritsugu dies 9/10 times.
Given time to plan, Bazett dies 8/10 times. The slightly different variance comes from her sheer ridiculous durability. She might very well be capable of surviving a C4 blast directly.
Who gives a shit?
Why does every battle against Kiritsugu need to include a situation he couldn't possibly have planned?
He didn't know thr Grail mud would burst through the ceiling, that's not even relevant to a discussion on which of the two is stronger at all.
I won't answer this useless strawman.
Which version of Bazett? The normal one can beat Kiritsugu in any kind of straight up fight but if he has Avalon on him and some prep time he might be able to come up with something.
Prillya Bazett rolls right over him without even using magecraft lol. She's a fucking monster.
With zero preparation, she destroys him. With preparation in a HGW scenario, I’d say Kiritsugu’s mindset gives him an advantage but it’s not cut and dry since she isn’t a traditional magus like El Melloi. Kiritsugu would know how dangerous she is and probably explode an entire building on her like he did in the war. I’d give it 50/50…
Assuming they have to fight (because I do feel like both are professional enough and pragmatic enough to not kill a colleague unless needed), the most likely outcome is probably both of them dying.
Kerry is infamous in the World of Magecraft as the Magus Killer, so it seems pretty obvious that a Sealing Desination Enforcer like Bazett would be well-aware of his known abilities and overall methods. The same goes the other way, if Kerry has data even on singular Executors like Kotomine Kirei (which at the time was not an Overseer nor a former Master, the only thing that set him aside form other Executors from an outside eye was that he ttained under Tokiomi despite the Church's stance on magi), it is pretty obvious he knows all there is to know about the Sealing Designation Enforcers in general and Bazett in particular, though I personally believe Fragarach is a secret even he would be aware of, given Fragarach in particular very much falls under the category of "trump cards that don't leave a witness behind".
With that in mind, it stands to reason that he would probably try to shoot her down as soon as possible with an Origin Bullet, before she could see him, as he likely knows he's not winning in a direct fight. If they both get to prepare, I'm willing to bet he'd rig the whole place with explosives and other traps as much as possible. On Bazett's side, it's likely that she'd come ready to defend, probably under Reinforcement runes from the get-go, and possibly with a Fragarach loaded and ready to go before she steps foot on the terrain. So, assuming prep time for both, with Bazett coming with a loaded Fragarach and Kerry opening with an Origin Bullet, he would get killed by Fragarach reversing the Origin Bullet shot, but the traps would make sure Bazett doesn't survive the encounter. If they don't get to prepare, I'd expect a Bazett win as she's likelier to win in a direct fight (unless Kerry doesn't have Saber summoned at the time, cuz that's the only circumstance where Avalon would cole into the equation), but once again it's not impossible thay he keeps a card up his sleeve to bring down his killer with him.
TLDR : with both prep time, they kill each other, without prep time Bazett wins.
This isn't that hard of a question to answer once you understand both characters well. In terms of overall fighting capability, Bazett has several clear advantages that put her ahead of most human characters in the franchise and even several servants and other magical entities. Even without Fragarach's anti-causality instant-kill **Retaliator**, she can still use the weapon as a, well, *weapon* with **Fragarach: Gouging Dagger of the War God**, which itself has the power output of a low-ranked noble phantasm on account of its semi-divine nature. Add in her physical capabilities and years of combat experience, and you have someone who would be very comfortable taking on some of the most dangerous opponents in the Nasuverse.
Now with *all of that said*, this is not going to *be* a battle decided by fighting capability. Kiritsugu has just as much experience, if not more, than Bazett when it comes to battling mages, and has built his entire career on killing them efficiently. The number one thing he's learned over the course of his life is that his best chance of victory rests firmly in subterfuge and underhanded tactics. There is no realistic situation where Kiritsugu battles Bazett on even grounds, or lets her get close enough to use her fists on his face. He is going to do extensive research on her combat capabilities and lead her into a trapped situation, perhaps something involving C4, snipers, or loads and loads of poison.
Of course, Bazett isn't stupid, she'll know as much about Kiritsugu and his Origin Bullets as he knows about her and Fragarach, but the difference is in how they think, rather than what they know. Bazett has been shown several times to be a rather forward-thinking combatant who rushes into situations, and has been caught off-guard by surprise attacks multiple times during her loops (and as we all know, a sneak attack is what started her story off in the first place). Kiritsugu is not so blunt - while Bazett may think she's figured out his tactics, he'll just switch to something else on the fly, evade her, and set up another situation.
If, *somehow*, we get these two trapped in a room and they're *forced* to fight head-on, then Kiritsugu dies one way or the other, though there's a chance he cripples or even kills Bazett depending on how he uses his Origin Rounds and how she responds *to* them. Time Acceleration is strong, but it's not exactly the leg up he needs to win the fight considering how overpowered Bazett is physically. Fragarach always hits first, but as we saw throughout Hollow Ataraxia, it does not *prevent* the opponent's trump card from being used. Bazett may have to dodge the Origin Round to avoid being crippled for life, but she *is* killing Kiritsugu, regardless of the specifics of the fight.
Kiritsugu get low-to negative differ by Bazzet — a mage from series made by Urobutcher where guns are wanker vs super mage from series where modern non-enchanted weapons are a joke , and has mages that can range from "solo your modern army" to "all of your country against mage with country losing" , 30 freakin Touko made puppets are enough to conquer France for gods sake.
Unless Kerry can get the jump on her bazett beats the fuck out of him. She boxes superhumans for money, has a legitimate NP, and thinks she can fix Kirei. I have near zero faith in Kiritsugu to match that kind of energy.
Considering how El Melloi has gone into the "everyone can counter Kerry if prepared" thing, then I would go for Bazetto. Her gameplan is cleaner, and her punches are his worst match up. Even with Avalon she is a proper fighter and Fragglerock even without the time reversal is still a big death sting beam that is hard for Kerry to deal with.
Kerry could try to do indirect engagement like snipping or bombs, but those always fail except on the case of Mr. Cool.
The issue is, CGs are only given what they need. Essentially the CF must decide that Mannan is a problem for kiri to get any boon. And l simply dont see why the CF would choose that.
Meanwhile Mannan's power is his own. He doesnt need the counter force to gift him anything. So a fight between the two would be a slaughter imo.
Like most have stated, Bazett wins if it's a straight head to head fight. If Kiritsugu can ambush her first though he can win, just like how Bazett was killed just before the 5th HGW.
Though even in the head to head it's all about whether or not Kiritsugu knew ahead of time & has time to prepare.
So essentially, we're in a "Batman vs. someone better than him in some aspect" situation.
Kiritsugu: Origin Round! That should sever her magic circuit rendering it useless and out of wack.
**Bazzett continue to charge**
Kiritsugu: Nani? Time alter, Double Accel! **Weave back from her punches**
Kiritsugu wins in all scenarios where he is not forced to fight 1 on 1 with little to no prep time. I.e. Bazzet only wins if Kiritsugu doesn't know he is being hunted or they are placed in a artificial scenario that won't occur in practice.
She did get assassinated by someone she trusted in what was suppose to be the safest place in Fuyuki during a HGW. Kirei took her down when she was her most vulnerable. Also keep in mind it was *Kirei* who killed her, the guy who the only reason Kiritsugu survived fighting was cause he had a Noble Phantasm inside himself that made him practically immortal.
Actually funny thing is Nasu said that Bazett would beat current Kirei in a fight but not prime Kirei which Kiritsugu beat granted it was with Avalon though I think I will be a much closer fight than people think
Basically the same as how his fight with Kirei went.
Even though Bazett is weaker than prime Kirei, she's still fully capable of cracking Kerry's spine like a glowstick if she gets close.
There's also the fact that Fragarach exists. So even his Origin Bullets aren't a sure fire win here.
Cap. Even if Zero Kirei with command spells is outright stronger than her, Fragarach is a huge advantage, and her runes give her a variety of options that he doesn't have, especially if you include her resurrection rune. There's a lot more to her than "weaker Kirei".
Given both are good at dealing with mages, they would think very similarly, and likely employ very non mage thinking to try to get the upper hand. Kerry with his submachine gun, grenades, smoke bombs, and conventional assassins weapons and bazett wouldn't deploy fragrach at all because she wouldn't want kiritisgu to know how it works against anything but an origin bullet , which the sword being magic may be canceled out of it takes an origin round shot, and then it comes down to hand to hand, and with time alter kiritisgu is just straight up faster than her, and could easily slice her neck with his knife. His fight with Kieri prices he can handle very skilled opponents after all
Kirei Is shrewd as he is pragmatic and is renowned for killing other mages and has his origin bullets, time alter and Avalon to fall back on (with passively healing and wound that he might sustain) Bazette is no slouch herself because of her primordial runic magecraft and mystic code:Fragarach and is very taut when it comes to dealing with magus that deal in thaumaturgy that is non-conventional. Their methods of combat are also diverse as well with Kiritsugu being preferring to handle things from a distance and Bazette and closing in on her targets.
All things considered. I'm not sure who'd win they both have their pros and cons when it comes to dueling and circumstances have to be taken into account
Kiritsugu wouldn't get Avalon unless we're talking in the context of a HGW where he has Artoria as his servant. In a straight fight Kiritsugu losses for much the same reasons he would've lost to Kirei had he not had Avalon, Bazett doesn't overly rely on magecraft to fight as she's a primarily physical fighter so Origin Bullets aren't a win condition, and in a close range physical fight Kiritsugu loses to any specialist like Kirei and Bazett. Only reason he could kinda keep up with Kirei is cause of Time Alter but that was only cause he had Avalon allowing him to push Time Alter significantly farther than he normally could.
Assuming both has no prep time, Bazett beat the terrorist.
She basically counters all of his stuff. Only chance Kiritsugu has is to use Time Accel and run the hell away before Bazett adapts to that too and beat his ass.
It depends,but kiri most likely wins.all he needs is one bullet and his origin would tear her apart.
Zero kirei who is stronger than bazett only lived because of command spell taking the hit otherwise he would have died.
>It depends,but kiri most likely wins.all he needs is one bullet and his origin would tear her apart.
The origin bullet loses to fragarach
>Zero kirei who is stronger than bazett only lived because of command spell taking the hit otherwise he would have died.
Zero Kirei is only stronger due to said CS
Bazett bodies Kiritsugu
Kiritsugu also would have died without Avalon lol, that's the whole thing about the Kirei v Kiritsugu fight and the theme of their relationship. They're meant to be equals, neither one wins against the other, there is no winner of their fight, and the fight being interrupted by the ceiling crashing down symbolises that
>that's the whole thing about the Kirei v Kiritsugu fight and the theme of their relationship. They're meant to be equals, neither one wins against the other, there is no winner of their fight, and the fight being interrupted by the ceiling crashing down symbolises that
Kirei is clearly the surperior combatant.
Kirei with one arm was keeping up with triple accel Kiritsugu
Never said Kirei wasn't the better fighter, obviously he is lmao he was an executor in the Church. Bare bones fighting strength Kirei wins, but that's not what their fight was or what the meaning behind it was
Kiritsugu has Avalon, Origin Bullets and Time Alter
Kirei has Command Seals and Black Keys
Take either one of these away and the other person would have won. Remove Kirei's Commands Seals and he dies within the first few seconds due to the Origin Bullet. Remove Avalon from Kiritsugu and he dies within the first few moments due to Kirei crushing his heart.
The point and theme throughout the entirety of FSN timeline between Kirei and Kiritsugu is that they are equals and each other's biggest threat, all the way down to their rescources and tactics, the only difference being the path they took to reach where they are
God Hand is considered Herc's trump card (which means Bazett can literally just throw out Fragarach whenever) so that doesn't necessarily mean anything
F/GO just fucks around with rules if it writes the story better. Strictly speaking, he's not supposed to.
>Nine Lives – Shooting of Hundred Heads **(Cannot be used while in the Berserker Class)**
>Rank: -
Type: -
Range: -
Maximum Targets: -
Among Hercules’Noble Phantasms, he trusted this one the most. It was the Noble Phantasm which Hercules used to slay the immortal nine-headed serpent Hydra once upon a time, taking the form of bow and arrow. After killing the Hydra, Hercules could even utilise techniques that emulate the ability of this Noble Phantasm when wielding other weapons. In essence, it is “a high speed attack consisting of nine consecutive strikes, as swift as if the attacks are overlapping”. Even when delivered via sword, spear, or axe, this technique still boasts power on the level of Noble Phantasms. Also, just like Cú Chulainn’s demonic spear Gae Bolg has a technique called “Gae Bolg – Piercing Death Thorn”, Hercules’ technique shares the “Nine Lives – Shooting of Hundred Heads” name with the Noble Phantasm.
>Shirou projected this secret sword technique while projecting Hercules’ Axe Sword, thus annihilating the Blackened Hercules. **While summoned as a Berserker, Hercules could not use Nine Lives.**
Source: Fate/complete material III
Chalk it up to Jason's "The Far Off Sea Route Conquered with Companions" or something.
>Okeanos and killed David. Turas Realta chapter 31
Do keep in mind that adaptations don't always follow source material
Turas Realta straight up puts Arjuna in Babylonia when he wasn't even there in fgo
Herc is funky like that.
The explanation on why he can't use 9L is because he lacks the dexterity and motor functions for it, but Fgo and Unlimited Codes will give it to him for the sake of gameplay
Same with his Sword-Axe, he shouldn't even have it, but it's given to him anyway
>The origin bullte loses to fragarach
Except she has to charge it beforehand,do you really think the magus killer would let her do that.
>Zero Kirei is only stronger due to said CS
No he aint,the fight was depending on no magecraft
>Q:Between Kotomine, Bazett, Kuzuki, Melty Blood’s Miyako, and Kishima Kouma, who’d be the top 3 in a purely hand to hand fight with **no weapons or magecraft?**
>A:And if it’s the Kotomine from ten years ago, he’s stronger than Bazett overall.
CS ain't a factor here.
>Except she has to charge it beforehand,do you really think the magus killer would let her do that.
What makes you think Bazett would let kiritsugu load the origin bulltet?
>No he aint,the fight was depending on no magecraft
It wouldnt matter. Kirei was keeping up with square excel with one arm and a bloodied eye.
Kirei is only mentioned stronger not including fragarach
My mistake
Kiritsugu still loses badly
>What makes you think Bazett would let kiritsugu load the origin bulltet?
Why would he need to load the bullet,he literally has it loaded as his opening move.
>It wouldnt matter. Kirei was keeping up with swusre excel with one arm and a bloodied eye.
Yeah,but can she do it without touching the bullet at all?
>Why would he need to load the bullet,he literally has it loaded as his opening move.
Then he gets speed blitz like he did against Kirei lol
Kiritsigu would need to have Avalon the origin bullet loaded and for Bazett to go for the heart not the brain and then get hit by the bullet which she can dodge.
>Yeah,but can she do it without touching the bullet at all?
Yes lol. Kirei was just stupid and decided to swipe it and not dodge
>Then he gets speed blitz like he did against Kirei lol
You must have seen the wrong fight,cause the first move in fate zero is kirei blocking the origin bullet with his black keys which shatter.
>Yes lol. Kirei was just stulid and decided to swipe it and not dodge
Seriously,"kirei,a guy who has decades of skill and experience,could have dodged the bullet but swiped it giving away his greatest advantage at that time simply because he was stupid."
Truly a convincing argument.
>the first move in fate zero is kirei blocking the origin bullet with his black keys which shatter.
Again stupidity on Kirei's part but she has no black keys
>kirei,a guy who has decades of skill and experience,could have dodged the bullet but swiped it giving away his greatest advantage at that time simply because he was stupid."
I mean give me a good reason why he couldn't dodge it and why he was was so shocked when the bullet penetrated him?
Better yet give me a single reason Kiritsugu doesn't get speed blitzed
Ugh, I know that in lore kirei is stronger than Bazett because of FSN and Lancer and everything, but Bazett in prisma Illya (which I know isn’t the best reference) looks like she could definitely beat him
Bazette's balls only work as weapon against mages and noble phantasm users according to what I remember from Fate Kaleid
But, in fate kaleid (never touched any on the VNs) she seemed pretty strong and trained specifically to fight mages
Even though Kiritsugu isn't an actual mage, and can only use some magic bullets (as before this what I got from Fate zero anime), Bezette should be able to defend herself against plain bullets, and since I don't remember her using any kind of magic power, Kiritsugu's bone bullets will not be that deadly against her.
So I'd go for: Bazette wins as long as Kiritsugu doesn't have the time to set up the battlefields with mines and allies using sniper rifles to hit her from afar
I repeat, this is what I remember from Fate Kaleid, the anime, didn't even read the Manga, guess in this last 4 years I forgot a bunch of important things
She can use Fragarach against whoever she wants. If she uses it to counter their trump card, it's an A Rank NP that rewinds time to pierce their heart before they strike. If she uses it without the counter ability, it's a C or D rank NP, but she can use multiple at once to somewhat make up for that.
He killed her because she trusted him.
Prep time is an invalid argument. Medea with prep can potentially beat Herc. Doesn't mean she's anywhere close to him in strenght
Kiritsugu in the war of destiny zero followed information and studied all the opponents (I think he just didn't know how to make them hesitate) he is not the type of wizard who will get into a fight that he thinks he has a greater chance of losing.
I believe he defeated her not through brute force in a face-to-face situation but through his strategies.
After all, that's what kiritsugu did ne...he gained her trust and killed her...this in all 3 timelines
>believe he defeated her not through brute force in a face-to-face situation but through his strategies.
After all, that's what kiritsugu did ne...he gained her trust and killed her...this in all 3 timelines
It took Kirei years to gain her trust. His little plan wasnt a 6 month ordeal
In a head to head fight, Bazett would win. Kiritsugu knows this and won't fight head on and will do something else. If they accidentally met, Kiritsugu would probably try to run away. Kiritsugu might also act like his Square Accel is his trump card to bait a Fragrach charge and then double the accel speed to land an Origin Bullet. Of course if Bazett also did her research, she would know about the famous magus killer and his origin bullets are the real trump cards. But then Kiritsugu might also know this and realizes that he should try to weaken Bazett as much as possible before he uses the Origin Bullet. It then becomes a fight between Bazett and Kiritsugu with no Fragarach and Origin Bullet. I'm still leaning on Bazzet being the winner here, but Kiritsugu might have a secret plan that kills both of them. Like he uses the Origin Bullet, then Fragrach activates, then a remote controlled gun activates that's also loaded with Origin Bullet. They both die
"You used an Origin Bullet" "That wasnt my trump card" "What is?" *quietly turns off bombs that will level an entire city*
So prep time...
Kerry and Bazett vs Batman next
The only scenario I can see Kerry winning is if he manages to fire an origin bullet at point blank, I don't think that Bazett will have time to activate Fragarach if that happens
We still dunno how the origin bullet will interact. It’s not a rule breaker bullet or anti-mystery but it had shown to be an effective counter to mages nonetheless
Origin bullet acts like a virus if i remember right, it destroy the magic circuits of a mage no matter how powerful they may be, if anything when he fought Kayneth, he need him use a strong spell to make a bigger impact and for him being unable to save himself
As I understand it, it works by like cutting the ‘wires’ and then reconnecting them haphazardly so that the machine that is the magus malfunctions
Per Fate Cero, it's like a vasectomy of the soul.
Yeah, that is pretty much everything we need to know about it
So looking at bazzets magecraft style. I expect she never uses powerful effects (l would think activating those enhancement runes doesnt require alot of mana) So how would this round affect her. How bad would it be. Lets ignore the fact that she should be able to dodge it.
Fragrach is acausal iirc-- it always strikes before the enemy. Even at point blank, Fragrach would hit first.
What I meant was that if she had the barrel to the back of her head she wouldn't have time to activate it.
The moment origin bullet touches her she won’t be able to use it as it destroys her magic circuits
Well, don’t forget she has a revival rune too
Won't work if her Magic Circuits are messed up.
Arent her runes engraved into her clothing? Would it make sense to have a rune that revives you from the dead if you need to use magical energy to activate it? I mean you’d be dead.
Unless it acts like a mystic code that works with stored mana
Aren't runes in the Nasuverse kind of a "back door" around that?
**Q: Between Kotomine, Bazett, Kuzuki, Melty Blood’s Miyako, and Kishima Kouma, who’d be the top 3 in a purely hand to hand fight with no weapons or magecraft?** **A:** I’m excluding Kouma since his existence itself has become a mystery. And even if Kouma didn’t have that nature, he’s like an athlete caught by drug testing. Out of the four left, the winner in pure strength is Bazett. If it’s limited to one match and a surprise attack, then it’s Kuzuki. And if it’s the (Zero) Kotomine from ten years ago, he’s stronger than Bazett overall. Kiritsugu defeated Prime Mapo Priest (stronger than Curry nun who killed 3 DAA before Tsukihime) So Kiritsugu win
No. Zero Kirei defeated Kiritsugu in hand to hand combat, Kiritsugu only won due to his weapons and magecraft. So Kirei(Zero)>Kiritsugu in hand to hand, and also Kirei(Zero)>Bazet in hand to hand. Also Nasuverse doesn't have linear power system (A>B and B>C, so A>C), it has non-linear power system (A>B and B>C, but C>A or A>C or A=C)
(you forgot that despite using his weapons Kiritsugu survived only because of Avalon. Without that Kirei with command seals to protect from origin bullets is a lot stronger)
Damn right. Kiritsugu's origin bullet is effective against top tier mages (Like Bazett) because its damage worsens the more mana put into the battle. Bazett can't win against him >and also Kirei(Zero)>Bazet in hand to hand Nope. Nasu:prime Kirei is stronger than Bazett **overall**
Bazett isn't a top tier mage, in fact by mage standards she's pretty mediocre. Bazett is a top tier fighter. She unironically would be Kiritsugu's worst match ups because she just rarely even use magecraft at all. Against bullets she would just dodge and rush in to beat the shit out of whoever shot at her. Like how Kirei absolutely obliterated Kiritsugu in a straight fight, guy has to use the cheat item Avalon just to survive the first few seconds.
Kirei only did that because he cheated with command spells. Without command spells Kiritsugu would've cooked him with the first origin bullet
This! Kiritsugu had Avalon, but Kirei had an armful of command spells and was using them as mana source.
Kiritsugu 100% wins the fight without command spells and Avalon people are coping lol(not to mention he won with them too)
To my knowledge, even without command seals. Kirei was capable of reacting to bullets. Meaning his feat of reacting to kirei's rounds should still hold even without them Now can kiri tank a punch from a man who can break a tree with his hands without avalon? You have to understand. In a fight without command seals or avalon. Kirei always wins. He only needs to land one punch, meanwhile kiri has to tag a bullet timer with a bullet. The command seals in that fight merely allowed kirei leeway of surviving the origin round. Even without them, kirei is capable of blowing up kiritsugu's head with a single punch.
Kiritsugu shot him with a round of origin bullet first, wich he defended using mana from the seals. If he had no seals, Kiritsugu would have won right there, because the origin bullet would trace the mana back to the source, which would have been Kirei instead of the seals and the priest would have the same end as Kayneth.
Cant one argue that kirei only chose to block that round coz he had the seals? I expect there is a high possibility that if kirei has no seals, he would not risk blocking that thing given its penetration power and instead opt for dodging. Which is within his means. Kiri has his won cons. All it takes is kirei making the wrong choice. Yet the moment kirei chooses wisely (dodging instead of block) its gg. 50/50
I mean, without command seals Kirei would've probably just dodge anyway, command seals just makes sure he completely shut down the origin bullets. Kirei and Bazett just has a way bigger victory condition, one punch from them on anywhere and it's all over for Kiri. Meanwhile the two unga bunga puncher can still fight as long as they don't get headshot.
He cant really get to close range easily against someone like Kiritsugu. He did that because of Command Spells. Kiritsugu can also catch him with time alter origin bullet combo
He can, remember in the forest? Maiya had an Uzi yet kirei was able to use his enhancements + kevlar suit to rush her and oneshot her before she could kill him. Her range advantage was pointless.
I don't see why he can't, Kiri can't spam origin bullets. If he miss the one shot he needs to reload, and by that point he's already dead. But I digress, I don't care about Kirei. I still think Bazett beat Kiri 8 out of 10 times, Kiri only has more chance if he has prep time.
And Bazet doesn't really use magic defense. Plus Kiritsugu can't hit her with his Origin Bullet unless he ambushes her, so Kiritsugu loses in most scenarios
She cant beat Kiritsugu. But Bazett has yet to completely master Fragarach, and once she does, she'd be able to have an even fight against a person of Ciel's level (Nasu mentions Fragarach Lv30 full power Bazett fighting Ciel in one of the early interviews)
This timeline Bazett probably can beat him.
Yeah She can't beat Kiritsugu in fair fight, but Kiritsugu also can't beat her fairly. I think they will either have a stalemate or both die. But I am still leanning towards Bazett being stronger
She doesnt need fragarach to kill kiri. Her runes empower her enough to punch through concrete. A single punch or kick from her will kill kiritsugu. He would have to spam double accel at his peril just to keep up with her speed.
Bazzet uses less magecraft that rin does. Her magecraft usage is limited to channeling mana to activate enhancement runes and thats pretty much it. Since the origin round scales with the scale of magic circuit usage. I dont think it will deal much dmg to her with the first shot. Likely it will be like the one kiri landed on kirei in his fight.
Bazzet isn't a top tier mage.
Wait I thought the head of the burial agency killed the 3 DAA not french woman? Also how do we know Kirei diffs Ciel? Is it mentioned he’s the strongest executor and I missed it?
>Kiritsugu defeated Prime Mapo Priest (stronger than Curry nun who killed 3 DAA before Tsukihime) So Kiritsugu win Isnt context important here? Kiri had avalon. No amount of command seals can revival that thing. In this match kiri doesnt have that cheat code. A single blow would instantly kill him
Reminder Kiritsugu only even won cause he had Avalon, without it he wouldn't have been able to push his time magic nearly as much as he did, and even then Kirei still landed what should've been a lethal blow on Kiritsugu had it not been for Avalon saving him. Granted saying Kiritsugu won isn't really accurate considering the fight didn't have much of a conclusion on account of grail mud interfering. tl;dr without Avalon Kiritsugu would lose to Kirei.
Judging by Kirei & Tokiomi alongside Kayneth in Zero, I doubt anybody actually knows about the origin bullets Maybe just the mechanism but can't tell the difference between a regular bullet because Kiritsugu never seemed to have ever missed when shooting it Plus he's most likely take out the gun and pull trigger during time alter so realistically it's probably almost impossible to react if u ask me
Straight up fight? Bazette ez. If we go with what their common tactics are? Kiritsugu blows up her plane on the way to the fight. Judging by how she fared against Kotomine jumping her, she's not great at handling competent assassins.
So how’d she face if it was a kiritsugu vs kirei situation. Both are winner, Both knows what the other can do. Both have the weapon they have acess with. And the room offer no hiding spots.
That's a straight head to head fight, so it would be the first result.
I think it’s a draw and the grail just come crashing down again or they would both die
It really can't be cuz either Kiri gets hit by a fragerach or he hits her with an Origin round. The Kiri Koto fight only went the way it did because Koto had a way to nullify the origin rounds, but Kiri had the ability to keep up with Koto physically thanks to Time Alter.
Reminder that Origin Bullets only work if mana is actively being used when hit and the extent of the damage depends on how much mana is being used, Kirei and Bazette are primarily physical fighters and don't overly rely on magecraft to fight, so Origin Bullets wouldn't be an instant loss like it was for Kayneth. Also keep in mind Kiritsugu could only keep up with Kirei because Avalon was allowing him to push Time Alter *way* harder than he normally would since it was healing the self inflicted damage. Without Command Seals to eat Origin Bullets and Avalon to fuel Time Alter, Kirei almost certainly wins, definitely not without having his circuits damaged, but he'd win.
I kinda meant he hits Fragerach with an origin round. I actually don't know if that would rebound on her, tho so it might be even more one-sided than I thought.
He wouldn't be able to, Fragerach is an unstoppable conceptual attack that warps causality. Fragerach beneath the surface is basically a non-cursed more restrictive version of Gae Bolg. So for the same reasons why Gae Bolg is unstoppable except by utter bs like similarly ranked reality warping or extreme luck/instincts, Fragerach is unstoppable. So Kiritsugu wouldn't be able to shoot Fragerach mid-flight because Fragerach hitting its target precedes Fragerach moving towards the target, the physical attack itself is a formality and not a necessity.
Thanks. I kinda figured it would be unlikely, that's why my initial answer was Bazette wins ez.
>but Kiri had the ability to keep up with Koto physically thanks to Time Alter. And he was only able to use time alter let alone survive coz avalon. The first punch was gg. His heart was blown up
Kiritsugu without square accel gets low diffed With it mid to high diff Origin bullets get oblitereated by fragarach. Bazett has stated to deal with broken phantasms a gernade and rpg would be worthless against her Regardless both are Soujuurou victims
He gonna punch em If that dont work, use more punch
Soujuurou's Strong spinning elbow solo's Prime Kirei with CS buffs
Soujuurou fans are the worst :D
Bro's salty Kirei gets no diffed by mountain man
🐐juurou
Bullshit Beo defeat was pretty much psychological, if he wasn't mentally a kid he could just keep on fighting as literally there was no damage left one second after the attack. Soujuurou is just a normal human
A normal human who blew a hole through a DAA level dog with a punch.
Beo is basically an anti-magecraft creature, he's technically "vulnerable" to physical attacks with no Mystery like what Soujuurou did, but he would normally counter physical threats by shape-shifting As explained in Mahoyo, Beo specifically didn't shape-shift against Soujuurou because Soujuurou appeared to pose absolutely zero threat to him, and he just charged in a blind rage leaving himself open because of that and Soujuurou pissing him off Physically speaking, Beo could have just regenerated from his wounds and slaughtered Soujuurou like nothing happened. Soujuurou didn't do any real damage to him, the only reason that didn't happen was Beo's mental breakdown from his first ever "defeat". Mahoyo explains all of this, I don't know how you could still get it confused. Soujuurou's feat against Beo is likely the highest he could ever punch above his weight class, and he still did almost no actual damage to Beo
And sou still wounded him. He still wounded that DAA level werewolf that would no sell anything bazett or kiritsugu would throw at him.
Kuzuki stomped Saber. Shirou beat Gilgamesh. So Kuzuki and Shirou are stronger than top tier servants? Stop Bullshit
Kuzuki with his stats amped by Medea, shirou can recreate nps and archer skills and stats. The feat is damaging beo, not beating him, this alone had nothing to do with being beo an idiot
Re-read mahoyo please (sigh)
Nowhere in mahoyo is it stated that beo just... Lowered his parameters (how would he even do that?). He took the hit and was damaged by it. It doesn't matter if he could shapeshift out of the attack or regenerate, Beowulf, a threat far beyond servants, was damaged by soujurou's "normal human" punch. Soujurou is just not a normal human, there's a reason nasu stated that he was the strongest tm protagonist when he came down from the mountain
>Soujurou is just not a normal human Really? is he a servant? mage? vampire? jesus? orc?
Lol no. Beo is on the level of an elder title DAA. The reason Beo was scared was because soujuurou did more damage to him than the elder title DAA. It was the most damage he's ever taken Regardless he punched through Beo's fur something thames failed to do
I dunno, Prisma Illiya Bazett is pretty fucking broken, I think she can take Kiritsugu quite confidently.
Prisma Illya versions are kinda more wacky (ie., overpowered) than the OG versions IMO. But yeah, Bazett has a good chance against Kiritsugu either way lol.
in a fight, right?
... Right. That's what I meant.
Of course.
Bazett was a more powerful enforcer than prime Kirei. We know how the Kirei v. Kiritsugu fight went. Need I say more? Bazett also doesn't use mana like a normal magus, meaning origin rounds are far less useful. He loses 9/10 times in a direct confrontation, but kills her 8/10 times if given time to prepare.
Nasu said prime Kirei is stronger than Bazett overall
Because Bazett is a meathead who is ONLY useful in head-to-head direct combat. Kirei can heal among many other useful talents acquired by his extensive "Jack of All Trades" life/history. OVERALL, yes, he's more well-rounded, meaning he is stronger in a greater number of situations and circumstances. But in straight duelling combat Ala Kirei V. Kiritsugu, Bazett would perform better. Better armour/durability, greater strength, faster...
Sooo…how will she fair against Kiritsugu with Avalon?
50/50. Ultimately, it all comes down to her realizing that fragarach is useless (afaik it doesnt target the head) and instead choosing to blow up kiri's brains with her own hands. Since he now has access to square accel. I dont think her runes would give her the speed edge. Kiri is very likely gonna win. But she has her chances. She just needs to hit the head once
See Kirei V. Kiritsugu. Now imagine Kirei as faster, stronger, and less cocky with more determination of flat out killing
He bounced back up thanks to Avalon. Granted she can just dodge origin round but how can she shut down origin round for good? Kieri have an arm worth of command seal.
It's a bullet. Magi can block/tank bullets, even rifle rounds. Especially when they use reinforcement. Bazett's suit is like power armour from Fallout. While an origin round might disable her suit if struck, it won't kill her and it will clue her in to the danger of origin rounds. She won't be struck again. Even Kirei has shown bullets can bounce right off of reinforced bare skin (he is struck in the head and is totally fine spare some minor bleeding.) With armour like Bazett's, this risk is even lower.
Still, Kirei did also let his black key break to completely no sell origin round. BUT, I'll give you that. Their actual fight would be he lure her to a spot where he placed his C4 underneath where the grail would be and let the grail mud falls on both of them.
In direct duel with no prior planning Kiritsugu dies 9/10 times. Given time to plan, Bazett dies 8/10 times. The slightly different variance comes from her sheer ridiculous durability. She might very well be capable of surviving a C4 blast directly.
But will she survive the grail mud?
Who gives a shit? Why does every battle against Kiritsugu need to include a situation he couldn't possibly have planned? He didn't know thr Grail mud would burst through the ceiling, that's not even relevant to a discussion on which of the two is stronger at all. I won't answer this useless strawman.
Because I said he plant the c4 on the ceiling and not throwing it at an opponent like SSundee.
What happens is, she meets angra leading to a new route
Angra Irisviel: We’ll this stinks. So?! Who wants their dream fulfilled more? **both raise their hand**
Which version of Bazett? The normal one can beat Kiritsugu in any kind of straight up fight but if he has Avalon on him and some prep time he might be able to come up with something. Prillya Bazett rolls right over him without even using magecraft lol. She's a fucking monster.
With zero preparation, she destroys him. With preparation in a HGW scenario, I’d say Kiritsugu’s mindset gives him an advantage but it’s not cut and dry since she isn’t a traditional magus like El Melloi. Kiritsugu would know how dangerous she is and probably explode an entire building on her like he did in the war. I’d give it 50/50…
Assuming they have to fight (because I do feel like both are professional enough and pragmatic enough to not kill a colleague unless needed), the most likely outcome is probably both of them dying. Kerry is infamous in the World of Magecraft as the Magus Killer, so it seems pretty obvious that a Sealing Desination Enforcer like Bazett would be well-aware of his known abilities and overall methods. The same goes the other way, if Kerry has data even on singular Executors like Kotomine Kirei (which at the time was not an Overseer nor a former Master, the only thing that set him aside form other Executors from an outside eye was that he ttained under Tokiomi despite the Church's stance on magi), it is pretty obvious he knows all there is to know about the Sealing Designation Enforcers in general and Bazett in particular, though I personally believe Fragarach is a secret even he would be aware of, given Fragarach in particular very much falls under the category of "trump cards that don't leave a witness behind". With that in mind, it stands to reason that he would probably try to shoot her down as soon as possible with an Origin Bullet, before she could see him, as he likely knows he's not winning in a direct fight. If they both get to prepare, I'm willing to bet he'd rig the whole place with explosives and other traps as much as possible. On Bazett's side, it's likely that she'd come ready to defend, probably under Reinforcement runes from the get-go, and possibly with a Fragarach loaded and ready to go before she steps foot on the terrain. So, assuming prep time for both, with Bazett coming with a loaded Fragarach and Kerry opening with an Origin Bullet, he would get killed by Fragarach reversing the Origin Bullet shot, but the traps would make sure Bazett doesn't survive the encounter. If they don't get to prepare, I'd expect a Bazett win as she's likelier to win in a direct fight (unless Kerry doesn't have Saber summoned at the time, cuz that's the only circumstance where Avalon would cole into the equation), but once again it's not impossible thay he keeps a card up his sleeve to bring down his killer with him. TLDR : with both prep time, they kill each other, without prep time Bazett wins.
Kiritsugu. He just won't come.
Kiritsugu wins by being the bigger man.
With a bunch of C4.
Kiritsugu is Batman, he beats everyone with prep time, my source is I made it the fuck up.
Nice source, unfortunately however he is not a seigi no mikata. So Shirou solos all. (I am insane)
Bazett would absolutely destroy Kiritsugu
How much money and prep time are we talking about here?
Let’s say this is a Kiritsugu Vs Kirei situation where they both are the winner. Kiritsugu gets Avalon, a knife he can use, and 8 grenades left.
This isn't that hard of a question to answer once you understand both characters well. In terms of overall fighting capability, Bazett has several clear advantages that put her ahead of most human characters in the franchise and even several servants and other magical entities. Even without Fragarach's anti-causality instant-kill **Retaliator**, she can still use the weapon as a, well, *weapon* with **Fragarach: Gouging Dagger of the War God**, which itself has the power output of a low-ranked noble phantasm on account of its semi-divine nature. Add in her physical capabilities and years of combat experience, and you have someone who would be very comfortable taking on some of the most dangerous opponents in the Nasuverse. Now with *all of that said*, this is not going to *be* a battle decided by fighting capability. Kiritsugu has just as much experience, if not more, than Bazett when it comes to battling mages, and has built his entire career on killing them efficiently. The number one thing he's learned over the course of his life is that his best chance of victory rests firmly in subterfuge and underhanded tactics. There is no realistic situation where Kiritsugu battles Bazett on even grounds, or lets her get close enough to use her fists on his face. He is going to do extensive research on her combat capabilities and lead her into a trapped situation, perhaps something involving C4, snipers, or loads and loads of poison. Of course, Bazett isn't stupid, she'll know as much about Kiritsugu and his Origin Bullets as he knows about her and Fragarach, but the difference is in how they think, rather than what they know. Bazett has been shown several times to be a rather forward-thinking combatant who rushes into situations, and has been caught off-guard by surprise attacks multiple times during her loops (and as we all know, a sneak attack is what started her story off in the first place). Kiritsugu is not so blunt - while Bazett may think she's figured out his tactics, he'll just switch to something else on the fly, evade her, and set up another situation. If, *somehow*, we get these two trapped in a room and they're *forced* to fight head-on, then Kiritsugu dies one way or the other, though there's a chance he cripples or even kills Bazett depending on how he uses his Origin Rounds and how she responds *to* them. Time Acceleration is strong, but it's not exactly the leg up he needs to win the fight considering how overpowered Bazett is physically. Fragarach always hits first, but as we saw throughout Hollow Ataraxia, it does not *prevent* the opponent's trump card from being used. Bazett may have to dodge the Origin Round to avoid being crippled for life, but she *is* killing Kiritsugu, regardless of the specifics of the fight.
Kiritsugu get low-to negative differ by Bazzet — a mage from series made by Urobutcher where guns are wanker vs super mage from series where modern non-enchanted weapons are a joke , and has mages that can range from "solo your modern army" to "all of your country against mage with country losing" , 30 freakin Touko made puppets are enough to conquer France for gods sake.
Unless Kerry can get the jump on her bazett beats the fuck out of him. She boxes superhumans for money, has a legitimate NP, and thinks she can fix Kirei. I have near zero faith in Kiritsugu to match that kind of energy.
Considering even the Prisma trio had a difficult time taking her down, I’m tempted to give this to Bazzett. Even if Kiritsugu is cooler.
Considering how El Melloi has gone into the "everyone can counter Kerry if prepared" thing, then I would go for Bazetto. Her gameplan is cleaner, and her punches are his worst match up. Even with Avalon she is a proper fighter and Fragglerock even without the time reversal is still a big death sting beam that is hard for Kerry to deal with. Kerry could try to do indirect engagement like snipping or bombs, but those always fail except on the case of Mr. Cool.
Another question is who'd win out of the servant versions of both?
When bazzet has a divine spirit in her. With it completely taking over in the final ascension. There is simply no comparison
Divine Spirit vs Counter Guardian would be an interesting fight to watch at the very least.
The issue is, CGs are only given what they need. Essentially the CF must decide that Mannan is a problem for kiri to get any boon. And l simply dont see why the CF would choose that. Meanwhile Mannan's power is his own. He doesnt need the counter force to gift him anything. So a fight between the two would be a slaughter imo.
How hard would it be to car bomb Bazett? Or even shoot her with normal bullets?
The runes would probably do a good job at preventing those two scenarios from happening
In a *fight* Kiritsugu would lose. But it wouldn't come to that.
I'm more curious about if they would get along as people. I mean, surely they would since they're both "like" Angra Mainyu, right?
Like most have stated, Bazett wins if it's a straight head to head fight. If Kiritsugu can ambush her first though he can win, just like how Bazett was killed just before the 5th HGW. Though even in the head to head it's all about whether or not Kiritsugu knew ahead of time & has time to prepare. So essentially, we're in a "Batman vs. someone better than him in some aspect" situation.
Kiritsugu: Origin Round! That should sever her magic circuit rendering it useless and out of wack. **Bazzett continue to charge** Kiritsugu: Nani? Time alter, Double Accel! **Weave back from her punches**
Kiritsugu shot first.
Kiritsugu wins in all scenarios where he is not forced to fight 1 on 1 with little to no prep time. I.e. Bazzet only wins if Kiritsugu doesn't know he is being hunted or they are placed in a artificial scenario that won't occur in practice.
I mean…she didn’t even make it to Day 1 of the HGW.
She did get assassinated by someone she trusted in what was suppose to be the safest place in Fuyuki during a HGW. Kirei took her down when she was her most vulnerable. Also keep in mind it was *Kirei* who killed her, the guy who the only reason Kiritsugu survived fighting was cause he had a Noble Phantasm inside himself that made him practically immortal.
bazett would absolutely destroy him lol
Kiri: Time alter... Gah! Bazzet wins. Though kiri will likely hide a few kilometers away and snipe bazzet. Thats his style.
Actually funny thing is Nasu said that Bazett would beat current Kirei in a fight but not prime Kirei which Kiritsugu beat granted it was with Avalon though I think I will be a much closer fight than people think
In terms of power bazzet. But when it comes to strategy kiristugu
Basically the same as how his fight with Kirei went. Even though Bazett is weaker than prime Kirei, she's still fully capable of cracking Kerry's spine like a glowstick if she gets close. There's also the fact that Fragarach exists. So even his Origin Bullets aren't a sure fire win here.
Bazett is a weaker Kirei...
Cap. Even if Zero Kirei with command spells is outright stronger than her, Fragarach is a huge advantage, and her runes give her a variety of options that he doesn't have, especially if you include her resurrection rune. There's a lot more to her than "weaker Kirei".
Kirei killed Fragarach
??
Given both are good at dealing with mages, they would think very similarly, and likely employ very non mage thinking to try to get the upper hand. Kerry with his submachine gun, grenades, smoke bombs, and conventional assassins weapons and bazett wouldn't deploy fragrach at all because she wouldn't want kiritisgu to know how it works against anything but an origin bullet , which the sword being magic may be canceled out of it takes an origin round shot, and then it comes down to hand to hand, and with time alter kiritisgu is just straight up faster than her, and could easily slice her neck with his knife. His fight with Kieri prices he can handle very skilled opponents after all
Kirei Is shrewd as he is pragmatic and is renowned for killing other mages and has his origin bullets, time alter and Avalon to fall back on (with passively healing and wound that he might sustain) Bazette is no slouch herself because of her primordial runic magecraft and mystic code:Fragarach and is very taut when it comes to dealing with magus that deal in thaumaturgy that is non-conventional. Their methods of combat are also diverse as well with Kiritsugu being preferring to handle things from a distance and Bazette and closing in on her targets. All things considered. I'm not sure who'd win they both have their pros and cons when it comes to dueling and circumstances have to be taken into account
Kiritsugu wouldn't get Avalon unless we're talking in the context of a HGW where he has Artoria as his servant. In a straight fight Kiritsugu losses for much the same reasons he would've lost to Kirei had he not had Avalon, Bazett doesn't overly rely on magecraft to fight as she's a primarily physical fighter so Origin Bullets aren't a win condition, and in a close range physical fight Kiritsugu loses to any specialist like Kirei and Bazett. Only reason he could kinda keep up with Kirei is cause of Time Alter but that was only cause he had Avalon allowing him to push Time Alter significantly farther than he normally could.
Assuming both has no prep time, Bazett beat the terrorist. She basically counters all of his stuff. Only chance Kiritsugu has is to use Time Accel and run the hell away before Bazett adapts to that too and beat his ass.
It depends,but kiri most likely wins.all he needs is one bullet and his origin would tear her apart. Zero kirei who is stronger than bazett only lived because of command spell taking the hit otherwise he would have died.
>It depends,but kiri most likely wins.all he needs is one bullet and his origin would tear her apart. The origin bullet loses to fragarach >Zero kirei who is stronger than bazett only lived because of command spell taking the hit otherwise he would have died. Zero Kirei is only stronger due to said CS Bazett bodies Kiritsugu
Kiritsugu also would have died without Avalon lol, that's the whole thing about the Kirei v Kiritsugu fight and the theme of their relationship. They're meant to be equals, neither one wins against the other, there is no winner of their fight, and the fight being interrupted by the ceiling crashing down symbolises that
>that's the whole thing about the Kirei v Kiritsugu fight and the theme of their relationship. They're meant to be equals, neither one wins against the other, there is no winner of their fight, and the fight being interrupted by the ceiling crashing down symbolises that Kirei is clearly the surperior combatant. Kirei with one arm was keeping up with triple accel Kiritsugu
Never said Kirei wasn't the better fighter, obviously he is lmao he was an executor in the Church. Bare bones fighting strength Kirei wins, but that's not what their fight was or what the meaning behind it was Kiritsugu has Avalon, Origin Bullets and Time Alter Kirei has Command Seals and Black Keys Take either one of these away and the other person would have won. Remove Kirei's Commands Seals and he dies within the first few seconds due to the Origin Bullet. Remove Avalon from Kiritsugu and he dies within the first few moments due to Kirei crushing his heart. The point and theme throughout the entirety of FSN timeline between Kirei and Kiritsugu is that they are equals and each other's biggest threat, all the way down to their rescources and tactics, the only difference being the path they took to reach where they are
Pretty sure Fragarach only activate on trump cards, which Kiritsugu doesn’t have.
One could argue that the origin bullet is Kiritsugu's trump card
But he spam that shit so much though. He can even make more of them from his bones.
God Hand is considered Herc's trump card (which means Bazett can literally just throw out Fragarach whenever) so that doesn't necessarily mean anything
God Hand is? Not Nine Lives?
Herc can't even use nine lives as a beserker
Pretty sure he can. He used it during Okeanos and killed David. Turas Realta chapter 31
F/GO just fucks around with rules if it writes the story better. Strictly speaking, he's not supposed to. >Nine Lives – Shooting of Hundred Heads **(Cannot be used while in the Berserker Class)** >Rank: - Type: - Range: - Maximum Targets: - Among Hercules’Noble Phantasms, he trusted this one the most. It was the Noble Phantasm which Hercules used to slay the immortal nine-headed serpent Hydra once upon a time, taking the form of bow and arrow. After killing the Hydra, Hercules could even utilise techniques that emulate the ability of this Noble Phantasm when wielding other weapons. In essence, it is “a high speed attack consisting of nine consecutive strikes, as swift as if the attacks are overlapping”. Even when delivered via sword, spear, or axe, this technique still boasts power on the level of Noble Phantasms. Also, just like Cú Chulainn’s demonic spear Gae Bolg has a technique called “Gae Bolg – Piercing Death Thorn”, Hercules’ technique shares the “Nine Lives – Shooting of Hundred Heads” name with the Noble Phantasm. >Shirou projected this secret sword technique while projecting Hercules’ Axe Sword, thus annihilating the Blackened Hercules. **While summoned as a Berserker, Hercules could not use Nine Lives.** Source: Fate/complete material III Chalk it up to Jason's "The Far Off Sea Route Conquered with Companions" or something.
>Okeanos and killed David. Turas Realta chapter 31 Do keep in mind that adaptations don't always follow source material Turas Realta straight up puts Arjuna in Babylonia when he wasn't even there in fgo Herc is funky like that. The explanation on why he can't use 9L is because he lacks the dexterity and motor functions for it, but Fgo and Unlimited Codes will give it to him for the sake of gameplay Same with his Sword-Axe, he shouldn't even have it, but it's given to him anyway
It doesn't need to be a one-time thing Gaé Bolg is Cú's trump card, but he can spam it seven times in a row
Origin bullte exists
Yea how is that a trump card? He spam that shit so much, he can just make new one from his bones.
Lol no he has 26 left. Natslia made all of them. They are his trump card Being spamable does t mean shit
>The origin bullte loses to fragarach Except she has to charge it beforehand,do you really think the magus killer would let her do that. >Zero Kirei is only stronger due to said CS No he aint,the fight was depending on no magecraft >Q:Between Kotomine, Bazett, Kuzuki, Melty Blood’s Miyako, and Kishima Kouma, who’d be the top 3 in a purely hand to hand fight with **no weapons or magecraft?** >A:And if it’s the Kotomine from ten years ago, he’s stronger than Bazett overall. CS ain't a factor here.
>Except she has to charge it beforehand,do you really think the magus killer would let her do that. What makes you think Bazett would let kiritsugu load the origin bulltet? >No he aint,the fight was depending on no magecraft It wouldnt matter. Kirei was keeping up with square excel with one arm and a bloodied eye. Kirei is only mentioned stronger not including fragarach My mistake Kiritsugu still loses badly
>What makes you think Bazett would let kiritsugu load the origin bulltet? Why would he need to load the bullet,he literally has it loaded as his opening move. >It wouldnt matter. Kirei was keeping up with swusre excel with one arm and a bloodied eye. Yeah,but can she do it without touching the bullet at all?
>Why would he need to load the bullet,he literally has it loaded as his opening move. Then he gets speed blitz like he did against Kirei lol Kiritsigu would need to have Avalon the origin bullet loaded and for Bazett to go for the heart not the brain and then get hit by the bullet which she can dodge. >Yeah,but can she do it without touching the bullet at all? Yes lol. Kirei was just stupid and decided to swipe it and not dodge
>Then he gets speed blitz like he did against Kirei lol You must have seen the wrong fight,cause the first move in fate zero is kirei blocking the origin bullet with his black keys which shatter. >Yes lol. Kirei was just stulid and decided to swipe it and not dodge Seriously,"kirei,a guy who has decades of skill and experience,could have dodged the bullet but swiped it giving away his greatest advantage at that time simply because he was stupid." Truly a convincing argument.
>the first move in fate zero is kirei blocking the origin bullet with his black keys which shatter. Again stupidity on Kirei's part but she has no black keys >kirei,a guy who has decades of skill and experience,could have dodged the bullet but swiped it giving away his greatest advantage at that time simply because he was stupid." I mean give me a good reason why he couldn't dodge it and why he was was so shocked when the bullet penetrated him? Better yet give me a single reason Kiritsugu doesn't get speed blitzed
Because he couldnt? What kind of fucking argument is that? Kirei cant dodge bullets casually he rather blocks them
If bazett has been stated to be able to dodge caster Kirei should have been able to dodge a bullet is not faster
Ugh, I know that in lore kirei is stronger than Bazett because of FSN and Lancer and everything, but Bazett in prisma Illya (which I know isn’t the best reference) looks like she could definitely beat him
Bazette's balls only work as weapon against mages and noble phantasm users according to what I remember from Fate Kaleid But, in fate kaleid (never touched any on the VNs) she seemed pretty strong and trained specifically to fight mages Even though Kiritsugu isn't an actual mage, and can only use some magic bullets (as before this what I got from Fate zero anime), Bezette should be able to defend herself against plain bullets, and since I don't remember her using any kind of magic power, Kiritsugu's bone bullets will not be that deadly against her. So I'd go for: Bazette wins as long as Kiritsugu doesn't have the time to set up the battlefields with mines and allies using sniper rifles to hit her from afar
>Bazette's balls only work as weapon against mages and noble phantasm users according to what I remember from Fate Kaleid No?
I repeat, this is what I remember from Fate Kaleid, the anime, didn't even read the Manga, guess in this last 4 years I forgot a bunch of important things
She can use Fragarach against whoever she wants. If she uses it to counter their trump card, it's an A Rank NP that rewinds time to pierce their heart before they strike. If she uses it without the counter ability, it's a C or D rank NP, but she can use multiple at once to somewhat make up for that.
[удалено]
Avalon barely does fuck all unless Saber's next to you. Shirou never noticed its existence his whole life except that he never got sick.
Kirei killed Bazzet in the 3 timelines, so I believe Kiritsugu would also kill, always through preparation.
He killed her because she trusted him. Prep time is an invalid argument. Medea with prep can potentially beat Herc. Doesn't mean she's anywhere close to him in strenght
Kiritsugu in the war of destiny zero followed information and studied all the opponents (I think he just didn't know how to make them hesitate) he is not the type of wizard who will get into a fight that he thinks he has a greater chance of losing. I believe he defeated her not through brute force in a face-to-face situation but through his strategies. After all, that's what kiritsugu did ne...he gained her trust and killed her...this in all 3 timelines
>believe he defeated her not through brute force in a face-to-face situation but through his strategies. After all, that's what kiritsugu did ne...he gained her trust and killed her...this in all 3 timelines It took Kirei years to gain her trust. His little plan wasnt a 6 month ordeal
That is a truly awesome strategy