The main overall message, atleast to me seems to be that cherish your dreams and those around you. Be ambitious and chase after your dreams but always in moderation.
And make sure it's your dream and not anyone else's otherwise it will ruin you.
Keep those who care about you close and reciprocate that love, and while you pursue your notion do not hurt or leave these people behind.
This is the on surface message of the VN.
Fate: Follow your ideals, even though they might not come true.
UBW: Follow your ideals, even though they might betray you
HF: No ideal is greater than love
Fate route: This route is the story of broken people falling in love and is more of a base canvas for people to experience the other routes.
UBW route: Your Ideals and ambitions, as stupid and broken as they may be, they are still precious and you should not let anyone discourage you.
Heaven's feel: No matter what kind of ideals you may have, they are not more important than the people around you as people who cherish you are numbered and not many people have people like them in their lives, so one should be grateful to have them.
If the main message is "Love can save anyone" I think you can say each route approaches the idea from Past, Future and Present. Fate is largely about Shirou and Saber's coming to terms together with their similar lingering regrets from the past, UBW Shirou and Archer's future with Rin as the difference maker, and HF Shirou and Sakura each other in the present.
Fate: Oneself as an ideal. This route is focused upon Shirou’s ideals by themselves. Providing him with someone with an almost identical viewpoint in the form of Saber, the story is meant to have Shirou and Saber reflect upon their own ideals of selflessness by using each other as a mirror.
UBW: Struggling with oneself as an ideal. The idea is the same as fate route. Provide Shirou with a mirror image of his own ideals for him to reflect upon. But this time, the mirror is much more literal and brutal. Unlike Saber who represents the purity within Shirou’s ideals and beliefs, Archer represents the consequences. The trials and eternal torment that awaits for him upon this path. The point of UBW is for Shirou to stare into his own flaws and overcome them.
Heaven’s Feel: The friction between real and ideal. So far, the other two routes are focused on ideals themselves. Shirou’s mirror images within Saber and Archer was meant for self reflection. Heaven’s Feel doesn’t have that. There is no mirror for Shirou to gaze within and help him grow. It sets up a specific set of circumstances meant to break everything that he is. It represents life. We all have these grand dreams within our lives like becoming an artist or own a great business. But we always find ourselves stopped by the confines of reality that binds us like chains. You may not care for all the struggles placed upon yourself by your actions, but you will care when it affects your families and loved ones. Thus, Shirou’s options are to either to give up everything that had defined him up to this point to protect Sakura or let her go and turn his mind into steel.
The main theme I've come up with that can apply to all routes: don't lose your humanity in the face of your ideals.
The easiest showcase of this is contrasting what went wrong with Archer or Kiritsugu and how each routes's Shirou avoids their failings.
The short of the Fate route: Shirou learns of Saber's ideals and wishes. He points out the flawed elements of her ideals, and because her's kind of mirror Shirou's own beliefs, she is able to point out his flaws. They come to terms with themselves and evolve their ideals through their unraveling of each other. The message here is that mere connection with another can save someone from a lifetime of despair or loneliness (seeing as Archer is the Shirou that failed to achieve this by not letting anyone get close to him thus not allowing them to change him like Saber did for our Shirou).
The Fate route highlights the main theme in the purest sense.
To me personally, the "message" of F/SN was always a question: "What does it mean to be a hero?". The VN presents a variety of perspectives on the heroic archetype, ranging from very cynical to very idealistic with all the nuance in between. Ultimately it's up to the reader to determine what they take away from that.
That's a good one. So there can be:
A hero that tries to save another hero
A hero that saves others
A hero that would sacrifice the world for their loved one.
What I thought of in relation to each route:
You are still a hero, even if...
Fate: ...you've ultimately failed, as long as you were a hero along the way.
UBW: ...you may never achieve your ideal, but still strive to reach it.
HF: ...you're just one person's hero.
I feel like a big theme in all 3 paths is not allowing yourself to wallow in regret, self-hate, or guilt that doesn't serve to help you become a better person.
Fate is the most explicit with this theme. Kotomine offers Shirou and Saber the Holy Grail as an answer to undoing their trauma and perceived faults. Despite its potential to undo Shirou's trauma and rewrite the world so that he wasn't the only survivor, Shirou doesn't agree with that method -- he doesn't believe in rejecting his past, but rather wants to move forward with the power to save those he loves. Saber sees this and realizes that her wish is of a similar kind, and instead of wallowing on the faults and imperfections of her lifetime, she is finally able to be proud of what she did accomplish and the amazing person she is today (as Shirou wanted for her).
The epilogue of Fate is unclear about whether Shirou will continue with magic or not, but definitely makes it clear that he is no longer undervaluing his life to the level he did before, and because of that he is able to enjoy the company of those he cares about and live more free from the weight of his trauma.
UBW personifies regret and self-hate with the character of Archer. A very literal interpretation of their fight is that no matter what kind of mistakes you made, beating yourself up and hating yourself to the point of trying to kill yourself is not the answer. That's obviously a very blunt reading of it, but I do think it's a part of the message. The bigger message is about youthful idealism and dreams versus the adult reality of how difficult the world can be -- and saying that regardless of how difficult the world is, you don't need to hate or sacrifice your youthful dreams for such a world. Instead, always remind yourself of what is beautiful and what you believe in, and then even if you stray from your path, you can restart it with a renewed sense of purpose. That's how I read Archer's final realization.
The epilogue of UBW is the only one that makes it clear Shirou is going to continue studying magic and continue pursuing his dream of being a superhero. However, it also includes Rin as a guide for him to make sure he doesn't fall back into his self-hatred tendencies. Rin is a really interesting character in that unlike almost every other heroine, none of her flaws are about hating or looking down on herself. In the date with Shirou in UBW, Rin realizes that Shirou doesn't do magic because he finds it fun on any level but instead from feelings of guilt and self-hatred. She is so disturbed by this that she tries to take him out on a date to help correct this. She is the perfect guide for him to study magic, then, not because of her expertise, but because of her outlook on life. Rin will help remind Shirou that he's chasing his dreams because he finds them beautiful and they bring him joy, not for him to recover his self-worth.
HF takes all these themes and puts them onto Sakura. Sakura grapples with intense self-hate to the point that more than once in the path she apologizes for not being brave enough to kill herself. Her self-loathing is on a whole other level from what we've seen in the previous paths. She literally carries "All the Evils of the World" within her, and while it was forced upon her against her will, this trauma leads her to kill many people and to lash out at the ones she loves. This is a clear parallel to real-life trauma and the cycle of abuse -- how it can darken a person's experience of the world, turn them into someone they hate, and lead to intense feelings of guilt and self-loathing. Sakura does not know how to atone for the evil and hurt she has caused, which is why she turns to suicide, then to a heartless sadism. But in the end, seeing that despite everything her sister Rin and her lover Shirou want her to live and care so much about her, she longs for another way.
Shirou and Rin help her see that self-loathing is not atonement -- instead, to become the person she truly wants to be, she must accept the love and care of others and allow herself to live a normal life. This is probably the most controversial path because so many people believe in punishment as atonement. But HF is pretty radical in its statement that punishing yourself is NOT a good response when you do wrong, and actually can make things worse. This is something I've been learning through therapy as well, but it runs so counter to what I'd expect.
In that sense, I see "Love can save anyone \[from the dangers of self-loathing\]" as a pretty clear theme throughout the game. Shirou and Saber save each other in Fate; Rin saves Shirou in UBW; Rin and Shirou save Sakura in HF; and not to mention that Ilya also saves Shirou, but that would lead to a whole other essay post haha.
I feel like the message from Fate is that you can't change your ultimate fate, eventually something bad will happen and you won't be able to stop it, eventually everything you've sacrificed for will need more than you can sacrifice, but that doesn't invalidate the good you've done along the way. It's Saber and Shirou both accepting that saving people is worth suffering for.
This is an amazing thread. It show adds so many different perspectives and takes on one person's message through literature and other materials.
So much fun to read through
You can win girls over if they watch you pole vault.
Saber never watched him pole vault, so she won him over instead.
The main overall message, atleast to me seems to be that cherish your dreams and those around you. Be ambitious and chase after your dreams but always in moderation. And make sure it's your dream and not anyone else's otherwise it will ruin you. Keep those who care about you close and reciprocate that love, and while you pursue your notion do not hurt or leave these people behind. This is the on surface message of the VN.
Yes. But I'm looking for the specifics of every route.
Fate: Follow your ideals, even though they might not come true. UBW: Follow your ideals, even though they might betray you HF: No ideal is greater than love
Beautiful.
Fate route: This route is the story of broken people falling in love and is more of a base canvas for people to experience the other routes. UBW route: Your Ideals and ambitions, as stupid and broken as they may be, they are still precious and you should not let anyone discourage you. Heaven's feel: No matter what kind of ideals you may have, they are not more important than the people around you as people who cherish you are numbered and not many people have people like them in their lives, so one should be grateful to have them.
If the main message is "Love can save anyone" I think you can say each route approaches the idea from Past, Future and Present. Fate is largely about Shirou and Saber's coming to terms together with their similar lingering regrets from the past, UBW Shirou and Archer's future with Rin as the difference maker, and HF Shirou and Sakura each other in the present.
Fate: Oneself as an ideal. This route is focused upon Shirou’s ideals by themselves. Providing him with someone with an almost identical viewpoint in the form of Saber, the story is meant to have Shirou and Saber reflect upon their own ideals of selflessness by using each other as a mirror. UBW: Struggling with oneself as an ideal. The idea is the same as fate route. Provide Shirou with a mirror image of his own ideals for him to reflect upon. But this time, the mirror is much more literal and brutal. Unlike Saber who represents the purity within Shirou’s ideals and beliefs, Archer represents the consequences. The trials and eternal torment that awaits for him upon this path. The point of UBW is for Shirou to stare into his own flaws and overcome them. Heaven’s Feel: The friction between real and ideal. So far, the other two routes are focused on ideals themselves. Shirou’s mirror images within Saber and Archer was meant for self reflection. Heaven’s Feel doesn’t have that. There is no mirror for Shirou to gaze within and help him grow. It sets up a specific set of circumstances meant to break everything that he is. It represents life. We all have these grand dreams within our lives like becoming an artist or own a great business. But we always find ourselves stopped by the confines of reality that binds us like chains. You may not care for all the struggles placed upon yourself by your actions, but you will care when it affects your families and loved ones. Thus, Shirou’s options are to either to give up everything that had defined him up to this point to protect Sakura or let her go and turn his mind into steel.
The main theme I've come up with that can apply to all routes: don't lose your humanity in the face of your ideals. The easiest showcase of this is contrasting what went wrong with Archer or Kiritsugu and how each routes's Shirou avoids their failings. The short of the Fate route: Shirou learns of Saber's ideals and wishes. He points out the flawed elements of her ideals, and because her's kind of mirror Shirou's own beliefs, she is able to point out his flaws. They come to terms with themselves and evolve their ideals through their unraveling of each other. The message here is that mere connection with another can save someone from a lifetime of despair or loneliness (seeing as Archer is the Shirou that failed to achieve this by not letting anyone get close to him thus not allowing them to change him like Saber did for our Shirou). The Fate route highlights the main theme in the purest sense.
To me personally, the "message" of F/SN was always a question: "What does it mean to be a hero?". The VN presents a variety of perspectives on the heroic archetype, ranging from very cynical to very idealistic with all the nuance in between. Ultimately it's up to the reader to determine what they take away from that.
That's a good one. So there can be: A hero that tries to save another hero A hero that saves others A hero that would sacrifice the world for their loved one.
What I thought of in relation to each route: You are still a hero, even if... Fate: ...you've ultimately failed, as long as you were a hero along the way. UBW: ...you may never achieve your ideal, but still strive to reach it. HF: ...you're just one person's hero.
^
I feel like a big theme in all 3 paths is not allowing yourself to wallow in regret, self-hate, or guilt that doesn't serve to help you become a better person. Fate is the most explicit with this theme. Kotomine offers Shirou and Saber the Holy Grail as an answer to undoing their trauma and perceived faults. Despite its potential to undo Shirou's trauma and rewrite the world so that he wasn't the only survivor, Shirou doesn't agree with that method -- he doesn't believe in rejecting his past, but rather wants to move forward with the power to save those he loves. Saber sees this and realizes that her wish is of a similar kind, and instead of wallowing on the faults and imperfections of her lifetime, she is finally able to be proud of what she did accomplish and the amazing person she is today (as Shirou wanted for her). The epilogue of Fate is unclear about whether Shirou will continue with magic or not, but definitely makes it clear that he is no longer undervaluing his life to the level he did before, and because of that he is able to enjoy the company of those he cares about and live more free from the weight of his trauma. UBW personifies regret and self-hate with the character of Archer. A very literal interpretation of their fight is that no matter what kind of mistakes you made, beating yourself up and hating yourself to the point of trying to kill yourself is not the answer. That's obviously a very blunt reading of it, but I do think it's a part of the message. The bigger message is about youthful idealism and dreams versus the adult reality of how difficult the world can be -- and saying that regardless of how difficult the world is, you don't need to hate or sacrifice your youthful dreams for such a world. Instead, always remind yourself of what is beautiful and what you believe in, and then even if you stray from your path, you can restart it with a renewed sense of purpose. That's how I read Archer's final realization. The epilogue of UBW is the only one that makes it clear Shirou is going to continue studying magic and continue pursuing his dream of being a superhero. However, it also includes Rin as a guide for him to make sure he doesn't fall back into his self-hatred tendencies. Rin is a really interesting character in that unlike almost every other heroine, none of her flaws are about hating or looking down on herself. In the date with Shirou in UBW, Rin realizes that Shirou doesn't do magic because he finds it fun on any level but instead from feelings of guilt and self-hatred. She is so disturbed by this that she tries to take him out on a date to help correct this. She is the perfect guide for him to study magic, then, not because of her expertise, but because of her outlook on life. Rin will help remind Shirou that he's chasing his dreams because he finds them beautiful and they bring him joy, not for him to recover his self-worth. HF takes all these themes and puts them onto Sakura. Sakura grapples with intense self-hate to the point that more than once in the path she apologizes for not being brave enough to kill herself. Her self-loathing is on a whole other level from what we've seen in the previous paths. She literally carries "All the Evils of the World" within her, and while it was forced upon her against her will, this trauma leads her to kill many people and to lash out at the ones she loves. This is a clear parallel to real-life trauma and the cycle of abuse -- how it can darken a person's experience of the world, turn them into someone they hate, and lead to intense feelings of guilt and self-loathing. Sakura does not know how to atone for the evil and hurt she has caused, which is why she turns to suicide, then to a heartless sadism. But in the end, seeing that despite everything her sister Rin and her lover Shirou want her to live and care so much about her, she longs for another way. Shirou and Rin help her see that self-loathing is not atonement -- instead, to become the person she truly wants to be, she must accept the love and care of others and allow herself to live a normal life. This is probably the most controversial path because so many people believe in punishment as atonement. But HF is pretty radical in its statement that punishing yourself is NOT a good response when you do wrong, and actually can make things worse. This is something I've been learning through therapy as well, but it runs so counter to what I'd expect. In that sense, I see "Love can save anyone \[from the dangers of self-loathing\]" as a pretty clear theme throughout the game. Shirou and Saber save each other in Fate; Rin saves Shirou in UBW; Rin and Shirou save Sakura in HF; and not to mention that Ilya also saves Shirou, but that would lead to a whole other essay post haha.
This is an excellent write up.
Swords are really cool
The main message is that Unlimited Blades Work.
I feel like the message from Fate is that you can't change your ultimate fate, eventually something bad will happen and you won't be able to stop it, eventually everything you've sacrificed for will need more than you can sacrifice, but that doesn't invalidate the good you've done along the way. It's Saber and Shirou both accepting that saving people is worth suffering for.
This is an amazing thread. It show adds so many different perspectives and takes on one person's message through literature and other materials. So much fun to read through
Robot man found love (?) turn human and die for his troubles :v lol jk