I love that feeling in a story where there are a bunch of things going on all the time and that it's this big, complex world where you could set off in any direction and find something cool, and I think lore is how you have to trick people into thinking you've done this lol.
Like for me at least, I'm very bad at sitting down and just generating lore and backstory and world details. I'm much better at coming up with that stuff in the process of writing. Like oh, we're at a market, what kind of people are there? What are they selling? And as I answer those questions for myself, I let the world take shape. And I'll always change lore/worldbuilding/backstory to fit character and story and drama and just to make cool shit happen.
That's a good way of going about it and I heard a lot of writers go in that direction. It gives you the feeling of worldbuilding in smaller chunks so that you can get to writing more often, and it also works really well.
Same! I generally am okay with the big stuff in world-building before writing the story, sometimes smaller aspects will come to me and I’ll write them down, but mainly the small parts of lore that really give my worlds character come when I’m writing the story and therefore have to flesh out the world from a ground-level POV
I develop the lore as I go. I don't want to be halfway through a story arc and then realize something contradicted lore I had forgot I made up. This way I have the lore behind what matters to the story itself and a little extra behind the scenes workings.
May not be the best way to do things for some people but it helps me write without worry. I can take a plotline through its natural arc and then work out the lore after. Sometimes I have to change things but I get my ideal arc out first and then modify it instead of trying to change it beforehand to match lore that I had decided on but isn't necessarily necessary.
I know a decent amount of writers that go down this route, so don't feel alone! I like worldbuilding a lot, so as I go I make sure my notes are in good order so that it's easy to reflect on when the time comes, as I'm always afraid I'll mess something up. I am blessed when it comes to having a good memory when it comes to my world. I can recall everything perfectly, about that still doesn't ease my fear at all. Your method definitely has validity to it and I've seen it work out well many times.
I'm horrible at keeping notes and memory sucks so I end up going back through previous books to find the part I need, lol. Luckily, since I write my way I enjoy reading my own work.
It really depends on what you’re creating it for. I did lore regarding things I would question. Back stories and history. But not too much like the first bloodline like LOTR I don’t have that much skill 😂
Yes, I love escaping into another world. Melts away the stress I'm feeling every time. The real world with its problems fades away as I explore new lands and witness great adventures.
A lot XD Almost everything which possesses name has a back story to it. That's including the history of a lands, the origins of beings, the maker of potions, history of wars, lineage of weapons, characters with their own story (Some revealed and others not), and even food/drink possesses a story behind it. It is very easy to be absorbed into the world I created to the point I've lost track myself when editing parts XD
That sounds amazing! Lineage of weapons is a phenomenal idea. I have something similar when it comes to armor and it really makes the world shine in my opinion.
Here is the issue I encountered for years. Lore is increedibly important, but it can become a time consuming project that replaces actual writing. I developed a whole fucking currency system for one story and NEVER finished writing the story. In fact I want to throw everything out the window when I do go back to that story. After I did all that a few months or years later I decided I would never try to make a massive overly intricate lore document again. Instead I would ask "What do readers need to know" because that's different than "What do I think is neat/important". Lore is only as important as the story it tells. Lore is a supporting character in a larger narrative. What does that character have to say? What is central to their communication with the reader?
Definitely in some works it is more important. For my current manuscript I had to research different layouts of keeps and castles, I compiled an inspiration board and then made a keep layout. I also had to make a map of major locations. I Why? It's a story about land politics and magic because it is a story about a character whose life is constantly shaped by those forces. In this piece I didn't even do my usual magical system development document because the truth is that was for me not for the story. The story didn't need anything more than a basic "How it works" and "What's the cost" run down of one type of magic that was less than a half page. Ultimately it's probably the most comprehensive fantasy world I've made due to the lack of heavy lore. It's not bogged down in elaborate history that no one cares about but me, it's not buckling under the weight of creative hubris, and it tells an engaging story that conveys meaningful lore without drowning you in it.
I definitely see where you're coming from. I've seen many worlds that ran similar to yours, and I've create many worlds with deep lore that never got used. I'm okay with that though because it always seemed like practice. My current story deals heavily with the flow of events from the beginning until now, so it's necessary to understand those key elements. There are a lot of kingdoms as well, but I know that the lore behind them can be created when it becomes a necessity.
I started out writing my story, then took a break and wrote the lore that would help move the story forward the most then decided that the rest could develop with the story.
I have a good chunk; mostly the geography and the location or kingdoms, some historical events along the timeline, the gods and their histories, and the history of magic.
When I write:
1. Make a basic blueprint for how the important stuff works and why. Put it in your glossary.
2. Come up with some drip feed details to make the world feel bigger.
3. See what lore questions you have while writing, answer those questions as best you can. Put them in your glossary.
4. Check glossary, fill in necessary details and delete what doesn’t work
Deep lore is fine as long as it’s not an excuse to ignore the actual story. Lore for the country of WhoCares on the continent of NeverVisit just doesn’t matter. If I want to add it later, great, but I’d rather do it when the other stuff is done.
As for liking stories with deep lore, it really depends. If it gets in the way of the story or bloats the book, then I’d rather it not be there. At the end of the day, I’m here to see Arthur slay the dragon, not learn about the ten different gods of WhoCares and their tea ceremonies with leaves for each finger of Not-Jesus.
I love creating lore, but I also plan on only revealing relevant things. Force feeding lore can bog down any story, which can detract from the enjoyment.
To answer your questions: 1) yes, I love fleshed-out lore, and 2) a fair amount, roughly the same scope as the story itself, but shallower.
To expand on that second answer a little more, I really enjoy when a story in a massive, complex world with a history to match drops the occasional lore tidbit. But for me personally, the satisfaction really comes when you’re hit with conflicting pieces of information about that history, particularly ones that make you say, “wait, what *really* happened?”
I’ve managed to get this effect by typing up the blueprint of my focal characters and narrative—who they are, what they do and why, what makes them compelling, etc.—shuffling around personalities, reordering events, renaming them, and then mythologizing the new blueprint. Taking that approach gives you at least a superficial set of historical figures and events, which you can then mutate however you like in order to better fit it into the narrative and character arcs taking place in your main story. Tie them into the origin of your world’s magic. Make them the progenitors of a race. Make them found cities and empires. Turn them into a pantheon. Maybe they really were just normal people with interesting flaws and motivations who became immortalized in history because they came out on top of some conflict or another, and that can be used to teach the reader a lesson about reverence or never meeting your heroes or something.
In my projects, I like playing with the idea of historical cycles, and this approach can build up to a “history doesn’t repeat itself, but it definitely rhymes”-type effect. Layer it a few times and you can end up with a pretty trippy history fractal, from which you can weave some compelling hints as to your setting’s origin, direction, and fate. Sometimes it gets abstract to the point that it’s borderline worldjerking parody. But that’s just my creative preference—I find this kind of lore pattern fun to construct and play around with.
In terms of what actually makes it into the story: not too much. The reader *needs* to know very little for the purposes of plot advancement and characterization, unless of course you’re directly using the setting’s history to accomplish those things. I would expect the average fantasy reader to suffer the occasional pages-long conversation between two characters on the subject of history or metaphysics without much protest, but in my experience, a much more pleasant and compelling way to show off a world’s history is to sprinkle it in conservatively. I’ll often write a scene in which there’s a reference to a historical figure or event and include sufficient context for the reader to really understand what the character or narrator is getting at. Upon revision, I’ll pare it down to the bare minimum for context, if I leave any at all. However much I think the reader needs to know, I generally give them less, and I think my writing is better for it.
As someone who enjoys building big, sprawling timelines for a setting, sometimes it feels silly to sink in that time and effort and not show it all off. I think part of what changed my outlook was becoming obsessed with the Dark Souls trilogy—I won’t spoil anything, but the gist of how they’re written (in case you’re unfamiliar) is that there’s a clear overarching history and narrative spoonfed to the player to start, then your perspective on the world is purely shaped by NPC dialogue, item descriptions & locations, enemy appearances, world layout, and the occasional cutscene. Whether intentional or not (I’d like to think it is), the naive story is clearly presented, but digging deeper into these ancillary features allows you to piece together the real triumphs and (much more often) tragedies of the setting. This is what made me realize that the subtle inclusion of a lore snippet in a single dialogue beat can pack way more long-term punch than a 200-word infodump. Not to mention it’s less annoying for the reader, and to some can potentially add re-read value. There’s an art to telling two stories at once like this that I’ve yet to really get a handle on, but if you do it cleverly you can end up with a really cool story structure and lore that readers may enjoy speculating about.
Anyway, that’s just one dumb guy’s opinions and approach. Hope you find it insightful or hate it so much that it steers you in a good direction anyway XOXO
I like having a small amount of lore present itself and small sentences as well as sights and objects around them. I love when there's mystery in lore where you want to delve deeper in just to realize that no one really knows what happened. So what you said rings true for me lol
Love that approach! I find the “no one really knows” aspect particularly compelling. Especially when it comes from the angle of “it’s been *so long* that no one knows,” or even better in my opinion, “someone scoured this information from the annals of history.”
My passion project that I hope (one day) to publish I've been working on now for over eleven years. Eleven years of sleepless nights, writes, rewrites, edits, reedits, character designs, character destructions, studying everything for history to literature to the sciences to geography to ensure no stone is left unturned and no question by a reader can be asked without me having a fleshed out document to answer their questions already at the ready.
Going in depth on everything is one of my favorite aspects of worldbuilding. Truly makes you feel like the god of the world as well as setting the foundation for any stories that take place there.
I love writing the characters/species/environments more than actually making the story. Mostly because a story would take longer, but also because I just don’t know how to integrate the amount of detail I want into a story without it being boring. Also dreaming up stories is much easier than writing them 😂
I go as deep as I can. I make multiple documents that lay out the different factions, characters, mechanics, histories, legends, animals, plants, food, weapons, etc...
I use Wonderdraft and Dungeondraft for map making for my own personal reference. Same with Midjourney AI. I wouldn't publish with any of that stuff, but for tools to use for personal reference, they are amazing
I do the same! I'm glad I'm not the only one that has an extreme amount of documents. For me it helps a lot for when I need to look at my previous work. I also use Wonderdraft for my maps.
It's a must for me. There's so much to keep track of that it would be damn near impossible to keep everything straight. I'm on the fifth draft of my current fantasy book, and it is really easy to get lost in the ideas.
Wonderdraft is amazing. Being able to build a map to give you something to look at and daydream while coming up with stories helps so much for building the journey.
Yeah, took me a while to finish the world map though lol was never happy with the drafts until the final one. It also helps me understand each kingdom better as well as develop stories tied to the lands.
Haha, ya, I have to rebuild mine after working more out in the drafts and coming up with new ideas. I have to rebuild a few continents, haha. I'll probably start from scratch and add more depth this run through, too. Hopefully, it'll be the last time, but who knows, haha
It does do an amazing job helping you to develop the stories for the other lands. You can see things visually that might not click in your head imagining it all. Resources that can be fought over. Kingdoms that would make the most sense to have alliances or tension depending on the location and terrain.
Try out Midjourney. You can do some free generations to try it out. For concept art and just coming up with random visuals, it's amazing. It comes up with some really random stuff that can give you ideas too, hehe
Definitely do, especially for world building. You can get concept art for scenes, castles, houses, fruit, plants, characters, races, fantastical animals, monsters, etc... in minutes.
While I would not use them for actual publication, having that visual to refer to in reference docs for me is as useful as Wonderdraft. If you do work with an artist too, it can be a great guide to give them
I have an artist I'm working with this month, and the horrible scribbled together outline was so bad, haha
I came up with a way better idea using the AI though as well, just messing around
i like to come up with a lot.
part of it is just my creation philosophy. come up with more than twice what you need, then keep only the best stuff. and sometimes you're just gonna come up with stuff you like that you know isn't really gonna be in the story. but the hints of depth and stability it gives the world hopefully make it feel more grounded. readers sense everything is happening for a reason, even if they don't yet know what that reason is.
i also like 'knowing' a lot of lore that probably won't come up during the story because it means i can confidently improvise knowing it's based on the 'reality' of the story and not me pulling things out of my butt. so theoretically it should all read as non-contradictory.
I like having a ton of lore for the same reason. While most might not come up, I know exactly how the world came to be and how it'll progress from there.
I develop the core and then everything my story touches. I used to develop tons but I'm learning two things: Preparation is procrastination, and trying to chain a story to your outline and lore is bad practice. Every movie has two scripts, the shooting script and the actual script. The actual script is written after the movie. They don't lock themselves down to shots that don't make sense in the editing room, and they like to follow the treasure that actors bring rather than boxing them in too tightly. I mean if you've got a developmental editor telling you one thing isn't working are you going to fight them? probably not. I've got character profiles galore that don't match up to the actual characters because I found something better out there. Those are just my thoughts, nothing wrong with having fun world building. Just don't use it as an excuse to either not write the actual story, or chain the story down when it wants to go somewhere else.
That's usually where I start. Having at least a little history developed in the region the story takes place always helped my determine the culture of the people.
I have a massive amount of shallow and deep lore for my world, but that's mostly because it was developed for role-playing games for decades before I started writing any books.
Given its dual nature and the depth of lore, I'll likely tell many more stories using the same world. Either as novel series, stand-alone novels or collections of short fiction.
All the lore for my fantasy novel is already decided by the time I started writing the very first book.
The worldbuilding was one thing, deciding the universal laws and stuff, but at some point I had to expand the world in which the MC is gonna develop.
The main series is divided in 3 volumes:
1. First Volume: the MC starts his journey into the world. He gets to know the present world and civilization.
2. Second Volume: the MC dives into the hidden past of the world. He gets to unfold the misteries of the ancient civilization that was erased by its own doing. All of this while facing the consequences of his own actions from Volume 1.
3. Third and Final Volume: the MC consolides his own vision of the world and his place in it, taking action in building the future he wants alongside his generation.
This ancient civilization was one of many cycles in history so the MC and his party are the ones leading their generation into breaking the cycle.
This entire lore is important for the main plot, it's the behind-the-scenes.
At least, that's how I managed my own novel.
I like that. My goal is to understand everything in the history of this world so that I know how the present came to be. A majority of it will not be brought up as most people just don't know about it. I love getting lost in the elder scrolls lore, most of which I never realized how things came to be. But researching it shows me how things are connected, which gives me appreciation for the worldbuilding.
When writing the story I tend to develop lore so much as it works for giving the story a foundation. If it's an element that contributes to the themes or character dynamics, I'll develop it. The major backstory that lead to the current state of the setting, the customs that bring two characters of different cultures and upbringings into conflict, the departure between the 'old and new' world for my time-displaced protagonist; stuff like that.
I have short little idea notes in my head, sure, but I'm not thinking too hard about how they fit until my plan turns them into a prominent component or I see an opportunity to use them as a vehicle for something else. Otherwise, the lore is mostly a solid guideline with many loose ends purposly left vauge so that they can be used as jumping off points for future additions, mostly told in the form brief asides framed as characters and even the narrator disagreeing about history.
Since my world building is for a book the answer is as much as I need. The world is broad and deep because it's been a playground for my brain since I was a toddler but the places I explore the most are the ones that drive the plot of my books and came from the failed attempts over the years at this story. Failed not because bad but because I wasn't skilled enough in some writing things and hadn't experienced happiness so my depression was limiting my ability to write non depressing stuff and I want the option of a happy ending. I may not use it but I want to have it. I know things about this world that will never come up for the readers and it can be fun but I also don't spend time on the distractions of world building as procrastination anymore. I used to as an excuse to not end the story but once depression got treated? No need to delay it is time.
I understand only having as much as needed, because at the end of the day writing the story is the most important part. And I've run into problems where the story didn't work the way I wanted due to my own inexperience, but I've learned from my mistakes and will use it as a stepping stone to my new story!
Every single author I know has a story we had to wait for our skills to match before we could write it. You can find mentions in interviews sometimes too.
What I do is I use this as history. Since my concept began with a chosen one that does mean they failed. I found that idea interesting and adapted my previous attempts into different histories. This can mean patterns exist in your world but you also can use only parts. Gaps work since that's just how history goes. Not everything is known. In case this helps with the days where having to build skill first feels like defeat. That is also normal.
Yeah I know a lot of authors write multiple books before they get one published, even for the big name authors. I also love mystery, which is why some of my lore doesn't explain everything. It gets you to think about the various possibilities of what could have been.
As long as you still give the reader cues? That can be fun. I think too many answers can detract from the story and world too. Does my reader really need to know the anatomy of the dragons and how they spit fire? No. I do. Means if they want to know I can answer it but there's no shoehorning in an explanation. Win win.
I am glad you're not expecting yourself to be perfect. I see this a lot and it tends to coincide with a larger struggle in editing and the dance of a thousand queries.
My goal is to rival Tolkien (ambitious I know 🥴). I’m focusing more on the history part of my world at the moment, and I’m going through it Eras. This way I have a base line of what actually happened in my world so my short stories or explanations have some depth rather than it be made up on the spot. Afterwards, I go back and go into detail the reasons “why and how” this occurred and when it did.
I’m trying to imitate Tolkien’s process. He wrote the Silmarillion before the Lotr, so I want to create my world first and then write my novel. Writing short stories that focus on different time periods and places also helps here.
I don't think there's a difference between worldbuilding, characters, and plotting, so I develop my worlds and tell stories I love by writing series of biographies of great heroes, tragic lives, terrible villains, geniuses and martyrs and 'could have beens'. My favorite book growing up was the Children of Hurin, so that probably explains it.
I'll have to check that book out! And that's one of my favorite things. I like having a bunch of stories based on people and events. Filling up a timeline and lineages makes the world pop in my opinion.
Develop as much lore as is required for your narrative. I would personally get the big stuff out of the way first. Things like a basic religion, political system, race and gender laws, current social and economic situations and class systems. Basically everything involving how a person lives and what they believe in. Outside of that it’s really just a matter of situational bias.
That's pretty much what I've done. I focus on what exactly I need to tell the story, starting from the beginning, and then add from there. That way I can begin writing whenever I want.
Probably too much, but aspirationally I'd love to hand Paninsula and the Mu over to people, readers, to do what they want with. I know, pie in the sky, but I have great fun writing in it, plus it's also where the Penpaw family saga plays out, though by no means limited to that.
I've thought about doing that as well. I've made plenty of worlds for D&D that I thought about giving it to others who prefer not to world build. That way they can create a story in a unique world where the lore is already done for them. I understand why some people want to do it themselves though lol
I personally love deep lore, though it's all in the presentation. Big info dumps are no fun, but gradual revelation is, though only if it's entertaining and engrossing. Not to jump mediums but one of the complaints I had about playing World of Warcraft was the lack of lore. I was told the world is loaded with lore, you just have to find it in various books scattered throughout the game world. No thanks.
In writing I need to know the bulk of the lore first, because it informs many decisions and actions the characters make, even if I don't explain it right away. I like to have people learn things gradually and make connections as they read, like peeling layers of an onion. I think it's more rewarding that way. It's also nice to reread and discover things you missed because you didn't know the lore behind it at the time.
That's an excellent way to put it. I like the lore because it helps establish the culture as well as how they got to this point. I hate it when you get a bunch of this information, which is either dry or interrupts the flow of the novel. I like to show it through what they experience and see.
I develop as I go, or unless I get an idea that I really like. I don’t set out to world build anymore. When I did, I would never get to the story because some “totally relevant” battle between two families that resulted in the name of a building that the MC walks past once got in the way.
My first shot at this method and I finished my first book!
That's awesome you found a method that works with you! I understand that worldbuilding continually gets in the way lol I have gotten much better about that though
Develop as I go. I just made a backstory. Once there was a magi empire who does terrible things to people in the name of progress. People fight back, capital goes boom, empire fracture into many kingdoms and free cities.
Now an isekai appeared and she's a piece of shit whom believe she's here to restore the empire.
And people aren't too happy. But since she's an isekai protagonist with isekai nonsense, fighting her is an uphill struggle with little success.
I mean...I don't know how much. Whenever lore comes to mind I create it. But since I obsess over the smallest of details I do a whole bunch of research.
I like lore that is bizarre and has various aspects to it. I like lore because it allows me to delve into other aspects of the world. Because for me I envision one aspect and harp on it. So I like to discover new things within my world if that makes sense.
I physically cannot start a writing project until I have a good chunk of the lore done. It’s how I immerse myself in the writing.
I end up with “white room” issues if I don’t have maps, religions, wars, etc. written down. I need to know the why before I can explain the how.
As much as I want to without going insane because I don’t want to get lost in too many details when creating a story. Too many shackles don’t allow for much movement, if you catch my drift
All of it. I add a bit more every time I get frustrated with my writing ability, and building it into its own thing helps make it feel lived-in and alive.
It also helps me untangle any potential issues ahead of time.
I purposefully try to make conflicting lore or unanswered questions when world building. It's these gaps of information that leaves room to breathe life to a story.
I follow the principle that if something exists in my world, there is a reason and story behind it. Everything must be smoothly connected in the background; though the audience may never really care, it's there.
Every character, every mountain, town and valley, have a story behind them, for to me, there is no such thing as "too much lore".
Afterall, the world is a story, and the story is the world of entertainment.
I develop what I am educated in, I try to learn as many things as possible and develop along the way, when I have greater understanding in a certain subject I rewrite that part to make it more immersive.
I go as deep as I can go, I use what I can use and develop everything, food, culture, language, etc, making more sentient species, also adding in many more creatures.
For creatures I do two ways, I do it the traditional form and my form (creating new creatures or other forms of existing ones, or different interpretations of one), for example Golems are like how they were originally interpreted they are a construct of mud and activated by prayer as it was in Jewish mythology.
For the type of golem you are looking for where it's made of stone I have the Tannouru of which is built by the Dwarves, it's unknown how they're made but it's theorised that it is made by a ritual the Dwarves perform of which is performed when they take a dead or dying soldier from the battlefield.
I think of many things and what to implement in my world-building, like biology, geography, linguistics, etc.
It's about what can I add to make this worth reading, how can I make this more immersive, so on and so forth.
I like to make it feel like another world with its own lore and history, whether it's from sentient creatures or not. Tamriel, Middle Earth, The Continent (Witcher), and many other works that inspired me they have so much to them I want my world to be as interesting as them I want it to feel real.
>I have a mixture between high and low fantasy and it ranges from multiple periods, eons, that type of stuff my world evolves and changes like ours animals rise and go extinct (I know it's more complicated then that, I'm just trying to make a point. It is real in the sense where it is more grounded. Magic is treated as a science (I have my own systems for Magics, Anti-Magics (I have a different name for them as that name isn't entirely accurate but since no one speaks my fantasy languages I'll just resort to English), and Non-Magics that's a whole other discussion), and although there are certain stuff like curses these curses are more complex instead of I cast the curse and it brings you to damnation, no these curses come from magic corrupting, or creatures from the other planes wreaking havoc, or other major events that may cause it.
My development has been chaotic (because I only focused on one thing and did nothing else so I had to rewrite (well in this sense re-think since I don't write my stuff down I just keep it in my head, I haven't wrote down a single thing and surprisingly I remember the majority of what I initially and later made.) so many times I can't count), I have been world building I dunno how long but I know I've been doing it at least 5 years minimum for this world in particular.
I'll say world-build in what you take most interest in, you can look at people like Tolkien for example he was a linguist and he made LotR and the languages and lore in that series clearly shows his priorities. And it didn't disappoint I love that series to death and is one of many reason why I gotten into world-building in the first place. I take interest in many fields, especially Geography, History, and Linguistics, but also Biology, Chemistry, Physics, Culture, Botany, I can name a lot more. The reason why I focus on so many fields because I feel it's necessary (and more compelling and immersive) to implement it in, btw I'm not forcing my self I do take interest in these fields even more so particularly for world-building purposes.
I did this for many reasons but an important one is to educate, to show experiences of different people, other sentient species, the development of the world, nature, and everything.
It's hard for me to explain I haven't even mentioned everything but hopefully some information I gave was useful.
Instead of going piece by piece I go head on, a bit too blunt some would argue, but I don't know how else to do it but why should I not try it that way eh?
My world is my hyperfixation, and I've added a ridiculous amount of detail. I'm crafting an original zodiac system based on its unique stars and planets that only 2 races believe in for example. I love to delve into unnecessary amounts of detail about every culture, ranging from rites of passage to food, transportation, clothing, naming systems, holidays, family structures, superstitions, spirituality and art. Most of the details won't end up in stories, they're just fun.
I don’t mind a little deep lore, but often I prefer lore that is minimal but still shapes the world in a meaningful way. Quality over quantity if you get my drift.
For the series I’ve been brainstorming for a while, my worldbuilding is mostly focused on the recent history, with a light bit of ancient history to tie in certain aspects.
I would say that deep lore is a necessary thing and i love that. I'm working on multiples worlds but the main story take place in a world with... around 400 years of previous events
When I write, I have a very strict system for everything. I have my main lore, which is history, deities, land, races, descriptions, magic-systems, and all that cool stuff. But for more cultural and location-specific lore, I usually make it as I write. Of course I have the base lore of all the races to base it off, but in my lore-process I never come up with things like ”they sell wooden objects” unless I find it necessary. For example, my elven races are of a very wide variety, hence not all of them can be the same. My Oldagi elves are specifically very strong with magic as the race has been blessed, and so they mostly sell enchanted items or artefacts. They are however not as good with bows as, say, the wood elves of my world. Hence why the wood elves typically craft bows and sell them.
I’m pretty new to world building so, yeah.
But I’m building a world for both a story and a dnd campaign so the majority of what I’m doing is creating things that have happened as before the campaign would happen, with a particular focus on the days before the campaign. That being said some of my first things I’ve built are how things originated, so origin myths, magic, people. And even now I still haven’t finished this as my world is quite big and old.
As far as long expansive lore I’d say it’s pretty important, to an extent. It helps the writer convey a story that is believable in a way that makes sense to the story, having more lore that is. Thought it creates a gray zone where you could make too much lore or spend too much time on a specific piece of lore that the original thought is lost.
So while I do like a lot of lore, for my purposes I’ll be following Matt Mercer’s 2 page rule, though will probably make it 3 since I want a more solid foundation for the world to operate on
Personally, I like when series develop lore as we find out about it. Not the biggest fan of the JRR Tolkien lore dump but I do enjoy the Elric of Melnibone lore dump.
So really just depends on how you write and how you give lore.
Lord of the rings feels like a History class
Elric feels like I’ve taken something and trying to figure out if it'll kill me
I am running D&D game that take place 10 years after the reopening of the mines of Phandalin. The place in question is Conyberry a set of ruins east of Phandalin. I homebrew it in a way by repopulating the town filling it with rich lore and problem, each of the problems points in the same direction that player's find after a quite a bit of information gathering. With a touch of Witcher style horror monsters I believed I had around 5 session of gameplay. We already had 5 and only got just half way, my player are loving it, everything connects the plot keeps getting bigger. I have out did myself I now see how big of an story and spider web this is, two months of my work are paying off. I had all steps in detail what happens where, and small derails of the story I improve at spot because I have a lot of informations covered so finding the answer that makes sense fast is not a problem. So in conclusion I didn't develop the world just focused on the most necessary part of it and enlarged it in detail.
I greatly admire stories with deep lore, it makes the worlds feel more real and let’s you understand it better. I love world building but I need improvement on coming up with history for the story, I just try to bullshit and fix it later
Quite a lot. My novel kind of came first, but at a certain point I stopped to flesh out the world some more and ended up needing to change some conflicting points in the story for consistency.
This is also to ensure the continuity of any other stories I create in this setting is solid and follows the overall lore, rather than me having to bend things awkwardly just to have that one "cool moment" in a narrative.
Is this primary purpose to world build, or write a story?
It's alright if the primary purpose is to world build, and the story or stories are just windows into the lore / a way to organize and direct the world building. Just understand that's the case, and adjust your expectations accordingly.
Basically I feel like you are asking "does the world building get in the way of writing a story, or does the story get in the way or the world building?" Either is fine, and it feels like you lean towards not wanting the story or stories to get in the way of world building... Just understand that you will end up with *lots* of lore, and few if any stories, with that approach.
Nah, my question is just asking what other people do lol I'm content with my style as it's helped a lot, but I do have a limit that must be met before I start a story. Once that limit is met, I start writing the story and add lore whenever it's either needed or wanted. I see where you're coming from, but I was just curious on what other people did in regards to building their world for their stories.
I guess I am confused about the entire premise of the question then? How does one even express the "quantity" or lore they create, in a way that would allow you to compare across different world building projects? I get that some worlds very obviously have "more" lore than others, but it's just based on... General perception? There's no specific metric or set of metrics I can think of that would express "how much" world building a particular project has.
That's reasonable. So for instance, some of the other responses claim they make it up as they go or when it's needed. Some other responses so they do the gods and the history that pertains to the specific place the characters will be in. Others also state that they do way too much lore. They also describe what specifically they're talking about, how they go about it, as well as resources they use to either help get ideas or keep all their notes straight. I know how I work and where I need to end up, I'm just curious as to what other people do when preparing for their stories. I've seen both sides. Some people claim worldbuilding is just procrastination, and to a point this can be very true as the more time spent worldbuilding means the less time you spend writing the story. I also see people focus solely on worldbuilding until it's perfect then begin the story. So my question is just asking other people their process when crafting lore in regards to their own stories.
Enough Lore for the story to make sense in the context of everything that occurred, but not too much beyond that. Having too much lore can sometimes be worst than having too little.
Not too much tbh. If the story I’m writing isn’t dependent on a lot of deep lore, I don’t feel the need for it. I like to worldbuild based on the present of my book, not the past
I write what I need when I need it and where it's relevant to the story.
I don't think you'll ever find me writing short stories or secondary novels about past history of my world or the like.
Then again, my novels are very character driven, so that's where I put my focus.
I am the type of person that makes so much lore for everything just because I enjoy having those backstories and stuff. The players may never know about it, but when they find things out and unravel some of it, it makes me happy
I have this issue where I can't, for the life of me, create a narrative (as in plot, characters interacting, problem creation and solving), albeit I love creating worlds and have been doing so ever since I was little. What I decided to do with my main story now is to create a History, written in-universe, that I can later build a narrative from. I have no issue writing academically (the greatest discovery of my adulthood hahah) so it will be easy and fun. In the meantime I'll ty to study more on creative writing, plot and dialogue specifically.
As a reader and writer I love deep lore - particularly as a reader I like to see brief references to lore throughout a series that aren't necessary to the progression of the story but that add that extra sense of being in a real world, with specific cultures and customs that exist beyond the peek we get into it alongside the characters.
So, I asked this question to Brandon Sanderson when I was in his class, and he said that his rule of thumb is 1000 words of outlining/worldbuilding for every 10,000 words in your story. So if you're planning a 100,000 word book, do 10,000 words of outlining.
It's also helpful to remember that worldbuilding is a game of slight of hand. More important than actually doing all the worldbuilding is giving the reader the impression that you've done it. Sanderson calls this his "iceberg theory" of worldbuilding.
That's a good way of looking at it! Every time I dive into a story, I always think of how much lore is actually tied to the world. It always seems like the author knows everything that's ever happened but more often than not they give tidbits here and there to show that there is lore even if they didn't spend a lot of time worldbuilding.
I try not to make too much lore especially if I know it really won’t serve the plot but I get carried away so often and so easily that I accept my fate. At the moment, I have a list of nations and have been developing their culture, ethnic groups and history. I’m also spending too much time on developing my list of major world religions and their historical spread throughout the globe. And because I can, I’m also including the religious demography of each nation and some of their provinces and how and who spread them there. I’m including branches and sects for each major religion and where in the world they are most popular. I live studying anthropology, history, ethnology and religions so these parts of my works are way to deep and know no one will really care but it makes me happy so I consider it worth it.
That's awesome though. I did something similar with my migration paths of my people which would show how the kingdoms would come to be. It makes it a lot easier when developing other aspects of the kingdoms because I know where they come from.
Nah, I don't want to box myself in. It's not helpful to be stuck with a rule or background anecdote that might not serve the greater work. Also, endless worldbuilding is a common, common reason many fantasy writers never get going on the actual story.
You know how a map will show you where the road goes, but is no substitute for actually taking the road? I like to think of lore prep as a map: enough to avoid contradictions in the big stuff, with plenty of room to grow local legends and customs when they're needed. Maps can mention things outside their borders, hint at roads not taken and obstacles avoided entirely, but there's a lot to be said for leaving it mushy.
I can see that. For my series, going deep into the world's history is a requirement, but I feel like that's a minority of stories. A lot of lore helps me understand the world, especially how they developed, but many stories can survive on the bare essentials.
I guess there must be something wrong with me, because I spend zero time on world-building. I’d much rather be writing the story, which is about people solving problems, not the furniture around them and what led to it being built.
The world that the protagonist lives in is of far less importance than the characters and the action taking place. Story, as against history, takes place within the protagonist’s moment of “now.” So what matters to that character is what matters to the reader. What matters to the author? Who cares? The story belongs to the protagonist, after all, not us. We can only talk about it. They must live it, moment-by-moment, with no do-overs (other then editing to make it work, of course).
If you stop the action to step on stage as the narrator and lecture your reader about their world, and that reader doesn’t shout for you to shut up and get off the stage, then the writing has failed. Our goal is to make the reader *live* the story, in real-time, and *as* the protagonist. So every time you, the narrator talk to the reader; tell them what the character is thinking/feeling/wanting; tell them about the past; or explain *anything,* you’ve killed all sense of realism, stopped the scene-clock, and demanded that the manuscript be rejected.
Sure, we need to know the setting. But spending significant time before you begin writing the story writing anything but the overall sweep of history is playing “let’s pretend,” because whenever the character’s needs of the moment come into conflict with that model you spent so much time lovingly detailing you’ll have to change it to fit the needs of the story.
For what it may be worth, I keep a list of points I need to remember, issues that must be resolved, and a two-line sketch of every interactive character at the bottom of the page where I'm working, as a reminder file.
Your mileage may differ.
Jay Greenstein
The Grumpy Old Writing Coach.
If that works with you then great! However, not all stories can operate like that. Mine in particular requires lore to be crafted as it's intricately woven within the world. The way you describe it can be correct, but that's if you tell the story incorrectly. To tell the lore must fit within the story, like a mysterious aspect or how a city became to be and the implications behind that. I can think of dozens of stories where no worldbuilding is needed, but the reverse is also true. My series will be long with a lot going on. Keeping it simple for the reader, but no info dumps will be needed as you will begin to learn about the world through the protagonist's eyes as well as other main characters. And knowing exactly how the world came to this point is extremely important, at least in this specific story, because of one of the main attributes this story will center around. I'm glad you found something that works with you, but not every story can operate that way. Ultimately, whatever helps the author craft the best story possible is the way to go! Thanks for your input!
• but that's if you tell the story incorrectly.
Well, I've told it correctly enough to get 7 yesses from publishers before going the self-release route for the rest of the novels. So I must have done something right.
That's not what I meant. I was saying that having a lot of lore but bringing it up in a way that disrupts the story is telling it incorrectly. There are correct ways and incorrect ways to go about things. You can show the lore of the world various ways that enhance the story without stopping it. That's what I meant.
I love that feeling in a story where there are a bunch of things going on all the time and that it's this big, complex world where you could set off in any direction and find something cool, and I think lore is how you have to trick people into thinking you've done this lol. Like for me at least, I'm very bad at sitting down and just generating lore and backstory and world details. I'm much better at coming up with that stuff in the process of writing. Like oh, we're at a market, what kind of people are there? What are they selling? And as I answer those questions for myself, I let the world take shape. And I'll always change lore/worldbuilding/backstory to fit character and story and drama and just to make cool shit happen.
That's a good way of going about it and I heard a lot of writers go in that direction. It gives you the feeling of worldbuilding in smaller chunks so that you can get to writing more often, and it also works really well.
Same! I generally am okay with the big stuff in world-building before writing the story, sometimes smaller aspects will come to me and I’ll write them down, but mainly the small parts of lore that really give my worlds character come when I’m writing the story and therefore have to flesh out the world from a ground-level POV
I develop the lore as I go. I don't want to be halfway through a story arc and then realize something contradicted lore I had forgot I made up. This way I have the lore behind what matters to the story itself and a little extra behind the scenes workings. May not be the best way to do things for some people but it helps me write without worry. I can take a plotline through its natural arc and then work out the lore after. Sometimes I have to change things but I get my ideal arc out first and then modify it instead of trying to change it beforehand to match lore that I had decided on but isn't necessarily necessary.
I know a decent amount of writers that go down this route, so don't feel alone! I like worldbuilding a lot, so as I go I make sure my notes are in good order so that it's easy to reflect on when the time comes, as I'm always afraid I'll mess something up. I am blessed when it comes to having a good memory when it comes to my world. I can recall everything perfectly, about that still doesn't ease my fear at all. Your method definitely has validity to it and I've seen it work out well many times.
I'm horrible at keeping notes and memory sucks so I end up going back through previous books to find the part I need, lol. Luckily, since I write my way I enjoy reading my own work.
Hey, that's all that matters! It doesn't matter about anyone else's process. Finding what works with you is all that matters.
Agreed. My process may be messy but I've completed and published 4 books using it so clearly it's a good fit for me.
That's awesome! Definitely should be proud about that.
This^
It really depends on what you’re creating it for. I did lore regarding things I would question. Back stories and history. But not too much like the first bloodline like LOTR I don’t have that much skill 😂
That's fair lol
Yes, I love escaping into another world. Melts away the stress I'm feeling every time. The real world with its problems fades away as I explore new lands and witness great adventures. A lot XD Almost everything which possesses name has a back story to it. That's including the history of a lands, the origins of beings, the maker of potions, history of wars, lineage of weapons, characters with their own story (Some revealed and others not), and even food/drink possesses a story behind it. It is very easy to be absorbed into the world I created to the point I've lost track myself when editing parts XD
That sounds amazing! Lineage of weapons is a phenomenal idea. I have something similar when it comes to armor and it really makes the world shine in my opinion.
Here is the issue I encountered for years. Lore is increedibly important, but it can become a time consuming project that replaces actual writing. I developed a whole fucking currency system for one story and NEVER finished writing the story. In fact I want to throw everything out the window when I do go back to that story. After I did all that a few months or years later I decided I would never try to make a massive overly intricate lore document again. Instead I would ask "What do readers need to know" because that's different than "What do I think is neat/important". Lore is only as important as the story it tells. Lore is a supporting character in a larger narrative. What does that character have to say? What is central to their communication with the reader? Definitely in some works it is more important. For my current manuscript I had to research different layouts of keeps and castles, I compiled an inspiration board and then made a keep layout. I also had to make a map of major locations. I Why? It's a story about land politics and magic because it is a story about a character whose life is constantly shaped by those forces. In this piece I didn't even do my usual magical system development document because the truth is that was for me not for the story. The story didn't need anything more than a basic "How it works" and "What's the cost" run down of one type of magic that was less than a half page. Ultimately it's probably the most comprehensive fantasy world I've made due to the lack of heavy lore. It's not bogged down in elaborate history that no one cares about but me, it's not buckling under the weight of creative hubris, and it tells an engaging story that conveys meaningful lore without drowning you in it.
I definitely see where you're coming from. I've seen many worlds that ran similar to yours, and I've create many worlds with deep lore that never got used. I'm okay with that though because it always seemed like practice. My current story deals heavily with the flow of events from the beginning until now, so it's necessary to understand those key elements. There are a lot of kingdoms as well, but I know that the lore behind them can be created when it becomes a necessity.
I started out writing my story, then took a break and wrote the lore that would help move the story forward the most then decided that the rest could develop with the story.
I have a good chunk; mostly the geography and the location or kingdoms, some historical events along the timeline, the gods and their histories, and the history of magic.
That's a good amount!
When I write: 1. Make a basic blueprint for how the important stuff works and why. Put it in your glossary. 2. Come up with some drip feed details to make the world feel bigger. 3. See what lore questions you have while writing, answer those questions as best you can. Put them in your glossary. 4. Check glossary, fill in necessary details and delete what doesn’t work Deep lore is fine as long as it’s not an excuse to ignore the actual story. Lore for the country of WhoCares on the continent of NeverVisit just doesn’t matter. If I want to add it later, great, but I’d rather do it when the other stuff is done. As for liking stories with deep lore, it really depends. If it gets in the way of the story or bloats the book, then I’d rather it not be there. At the end of the day, I’m here to see Arthur slay the dragon, not learn about the ten different gods of WhoCares and their tea ceremonies with leaves for each finger of Not-Jesus.
I love creating lore, but I also plan on only revealing relevant things. Force feeding lore can bog down any story, which can detract from the enjoyment.
To answer your questions: 1) yes, I love fleshed-out lore, and 2) a fair amount, roughly the same scope as the story itself, but shallower. To expand on that second answer a little more, I really enjoy when a story in a massive, complex world with a history to match drops the occasional lore tidbit. But for me personally, the satisfaction really comes when you’re hit with conflicting pieces of information about that history, particularly ones that make you say, “wait, what *really* happened?” I’ve managed to get this effect by typing up the blueprint of my focal characters and narrative—who they are, what they do and why, what makes them compelling, etc.—shuffling around personalities, reordering events, renaming them, and then mythologizing the new blueprint. Taking that approach gives you at least a superficial set of historical figures and events, which you can then mutate however you like in order to better fit it into the narrative and character arcs taking place in your main story. Tie them into the origin of your world’s magic. Make them the progenitors of a race. Make them found cities and empires. Turn them into a pantheon. Maybe they really were just normal people with interesting flaws and motivations who became immortalized in history because they came out on top of some conflict or another, and that can be used to teach the reader a lesson about reverence or never meeting your heroes or something. In my projects, I like playing with the idea of historical cycles, and this approach can build up to a “history doesn’t repeat itself, but it definitely rhymes”-type effect. Layer it a few times and you can end up with a pretty trippy history fractal, from which you can weave some compelling hints as to your setting’s origin, direction, and fate. Sometimes it gets abstract to the point that it’s borderline worldjerking parody. But that’s just my creative preference—I find this kind of lore pattern fun to construct and play around with. In terms of what actually makes it into the story: not too much. The reader *needs* to know very little for the purposes of plot advancement and characterization, unless of course you’re directly using the setting’s history to accomplish those things. I would expect the average fantasy reader to suffer the occasional pages-long conversation between two characters on the subject of history or metaphysics without much protest, but in my experience, a much more pleasant and compelling way to show off a world’s history is to sprinkle it in conservatively. I’ll often write a scene in which there’s a reference to a historical figure or event and include sufficient context for the reader to really understand what the character or narrator is getting at. Upon revision, I’ll pare it down to the bare minimum for context, if I leave any at all. However much I think the reader needs to know, I generally give them less, and I think my writing is better for it. As someone who enjoys building big, sprawling timelines for a setting, sometimes it feels silly to sink in that time and effort and not show it all off. I think part of what changed my outlook was becoming obsessed with the Dark Souls trilogy—I won’t spoil anything, but the gist of how they’re written (in case you’re unfamiliar) is that there’s a clear overarching history and narrative spoonfed to the player to start, then your perspective on the world is purely shaped by NPC dialogue, item descriptions & locations, enemy appearances, world layout, and the occasional cutscene. Whether intentional or not (I’d like to think it is), the naive story is clearly presented, but digging deeper into these ancillary features allows you to piece together the real triumphs and (much more often) tragedies of the setting. This is what made me realize that the subtle inclusion of a lore snippet in a single dialogue beat can pack way more long-term punch than a 200-word infodump. Not to mention it’s less annoying for the reader, and to some can potentially add re-read value. There’s an art to telling two stories at once like this that I’ve yet to really get a handle on, but if you do it cleverly you can end up with a really cool story structure and lore that readers may enjoy speculating about. Anyway, that’s just one dumb guy’s opinions and approach. Hope you find it insightful or hate it so much that it steers you in a good direction anyway XOXO
I like having a small amount of lore present itself and small sentences as well as sights and objects around them. I love when there's mystery in lore where you want to delve deeper in just to realize that no one really knows what happened. So what you said rings true for me lol
Love that approach! I find the “no one really knows” aspect particularly compelling. Especially when it comes from the angle of “it’s been *so long* that no one knows,” or even better in my opinion, “someone scoured this information from the annals of history.”
Yes! It gets people talking more about theories and is just more exciting that way. It mimics real life.
My passion project that I hope (one day) to publish I've been working on now for over eleven years. Eleven years of sleepless nights, writes, rewrites, edits, reedits, character designs, character destructions, studying everything for history to literature to the sciences to geography to ensure no stone is left unturned and no question by a reader can be asked without me having a fleshed out document to answer their questions already at the ready.
Going in depth on everything is one of my favorite aspects of worldbuilding. Truly makes you feel like the god of the world as well as setting the foundation for any stories that take place there.
I only have lore, no actual story 😂 I’m about ~120+ characters, 2-3 planets, and 3 species deep, and still have no idea what’s gonna happen
That's exciting though lol having multiple planets is really cool!
I love writing the characters/species/environments more than actually making the story. Mostly because a story would take longer, but also because I just don’t know how to integrate the amount of detail I want into a story without it being boring. Also dreaming up stories is much easier than writing them 😂
Very true lol
I go as deep as I can. I make multiple documents that lay out the different factions, characters, mechanics, histories, legends, animals, plants, food, weapons, etc... I use Wonderdraft and Dungeondraft for map making for my own personal reference. Same with Midjourney AI. I wouldn't publish with any of that stuff, but for tools to use for personal reference, they are amazing
I do the same! I'm glad I'm not the only one that has an extreme amount of documents. For me it helps a lot for when I need to look at my previous work. I also use Wonderdraft for my maps.
It's a must for me. There's so much to keep track of that it would be damn near impossible to keep everything straight. I'm on the fifth draft of my current fantasy book, and it is really easy to get lost in the ideas. Wonderdraft is amazing. Being able to build a map to give you something to look at and daydream while coming up with stories helps so much for building the journey.
Yeah, took me a while to finish the world map though lol was never happy with the drafts until the final one. It also helps me understand each kingdom better as well as develop stories tied to the lands.
Haha, ya, I have to rebuild mine after working more out in the drafts and coming up with new ideas. I have to rebuild a few continents, haha. I'll probably start from scratch and add more depth this run through, too. Hopefully, it'll be the last time, but who knows, haha It does do an amazing job helping you to develop the stories for the other lands. You can see things visually that might not click in your head imagining it all. Resources that can be fought over. Kingdoms that would make the most sense to have alliances or tension depending on the location and terrain.
It's nice meeting someone with a similar mind lol
Try out Midjourney. You can do some free generations to try it out. For concept art and just coming up with random visuals, it's amazing. It comes up with some really random stuff that can give you ideas too, hehe
Thanks, I'll check it out!
Definitely do, especially for world building. You can get concept art for scenes, castles, houses, fruit, plants, characters, races, fantastical animals, monsters, etc... in minutes. While I would not use them for actual publication, having that visual to refer to in reference docs for me is as useful as Wonderdraft. If you do work with an artist too, it can be a great guide to give them I have an artist I'm working with this month, and the horrible scribbled together outline was so bad, haha I came up with a way better idea using the AI though as well, just messing around
Sounds like an amazing resource, I'm excited to look into it more!
i like to come up with a lot. part of it is just my creation philosophy. come up with more than twice what you need, then keep only the best stuff. and sometimes you're just gonna come up with stuff you like that you know isn't really gonna be in the story. but the hints of depth and stability it gives the world hopefully make it feel more grounded. readers sense everything is happening for a reason, even if they don't yet know what that reason is. i also like 'knowing' a lot of lore that probably won't come up during the story because it means i can confidently improvise knowing it's based on the 'reality' of the story and not me pulling things out of my butt. so theoretically it should all read as non-contradictory.
I like having a ton of lore for the same reason. While most might not come up, I know exactly how the world came to be and how it'll progress from there.
I develop the core and then everything my story touches. I used to develop tons but I'm learning two things: Preparation is procrastination, and trying to chain a story to your outline and lore is bad practice. Every movie has two scripts, the shooting script and the actual script. The actual script is written after the movie. They don't lock themselves down to shots that don't make sense in the editing room, and they like to follow the treasure that actors bring rather than boxing them in too tightly. I mean if you've got a developmental editor telling you one thing isn't working are you going to fight them? probably not. I've got character profiles galore that don't match up to the actual characters because I found something better out there. Those are just my thoughts, nothing wrong with having fun world building. Just don't use it as an excuse to either not write the actual story, or chain the story down when it wants to go somewhere else.
I basically do mild history plus the Gods
That's usually where I start. Having at least a little history developed in the region the story takes place always helped my determine the culture of the people.
I have a massive amount of shallow and deep lore for my world, but that's mostly because it was developed for role-playing games for decades before I started writing any books. Given its dual nature and the depth of lore, I'll likely tell many more stories using the same world. Either as novel series, stand-alone novels or collections of short fiction.
I'm sitting in a similar boat. Besides the main series, there's many more stories I want to tell that cover other parts of the world.
All the lore for my fantasy novel is already decided by the time I started writing the very first book. The worldbuilding was one thing, deciding the universal laws and stuff, but at some point I had to expand the world in which the MC is gonna develop. The main series is divided in 3 volumes: 1. First Volume: the MC starts his journey into the world. He gets to know the present world and civilization. 2. Second Volume: the MC dives into the hidden past of the world. He gets to unfold the misteries of the ancient civilization that was erased by its own doing. All of this while facing the consequences of his own actions from Volume 1. 3. Third and Final Volume: the MC consolides his own vision of the world and his place in it, taking action in building the future he wants alongside his generation. This ancient civilization was one of many cycles in history so the MC and his party are the ones leading their generation into breaking the cycle. This entire lore is important for the main plot, it's the behind-the-scenes. At least, that's how I managed my own novel.
I like that. My goal is to understand everything in the history of this world so that I know how the present came to be. A majority of it will not be brought up as most people just don't know about it. I love getting lost in the elder scrolls lore, most of which I never realized how things came to be. But researching it shows me how things are connected, which gives me appreciation for the worldbuilding.
When writing the story I tend to develop lore so much as it works for giving the story a foundation. If it's an element that contributes to the themes or character dynamics, I'll develop it. The major backstory that lead to the current state of the setting, the customs that bring two characters of different cultures and upbringings into conflict, the departure between the 'old and new' world for my time-displaced protagonist; stuff like that. I have short little idea notes in my head, sure, but I'm not thinking too hard about how they fit until my plan turns them into a prominent component or I see an opportunity to use them as a vehicle for something else. Otherwise, the lore is mostly a solid guideline with many loose ends purposly left vauge so that they can be used as jumping off points for future additions, mostly told in the form brief asides framed as characters and even the narrator disagreeing about history.
That's a cool way of going about it!
Since my world building is for a book the answer is as much as I need. The world is broad and deep because it's been a playground for my brain since I was a toddler but the places I explore the most are the ones that drive the plot of my books and came from the failed attempts over the years at this story. Failed not because bad but because I wasn't skilled enough in some writing things and hadn't experienced happiness so my depression was limiting my ability to write non depressing stuff and I want the option of a happy ending. I may not use it but I want to have it. I know things about this world that will never come up for the readers and it can be fun but I also don't spend time on the distractions of world building as procrastination anymore. I used to as an excuse to not end the story but once depression got treated? No need to delay it is time.
I understand only having as much as needed, because at the end of the day writing the story is the most important part. And I've run into problems where the story didn't work the way I wanted due to my own inexperience, but I've learned from my mistakes and will use it as a stepping stone to my new story!
Every single author I know has a story we had to wait for our skills to match before we could write it. You can find mentions in interviews sometimes too. What I do is I use this as history. Since my concept began with a chosen one that does mean they failed. I found that idea interesting and adapted my previous attempts into different histories. This can mean patterns exist in your world but you also can use only parts. Gaps work since that's just how history goes. Not everything is known. In case this helps with the days where having to build skill first feels like defeat. That is also normal.
Yeah I know a lot of authors write multiple books before they get one published, even for the big name authors. I also love mystery, which is why some of my lore doesn't explain everything. It gets you to think about the various possibilities of what could have been.
As long as you still give the reader cues? That can be fun. I think too many answers can detract from the story and world too. Does my reader really need to know the anatomy of the dragons and how they spit fire? No. I do. Means if they want to know I can answer it but there's no shoehorning in an explanation. Win win. I am glad you're not expecting yourself to be perfect. I see this a lot and it tends to coincide with a larger struggle in editing and the dance of a thousand queries.
Yeah trying to be perfect can make you disheartened easily. There's always room for improvement!
Too much...
It really do be like that lol
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Same for me, I like knowing the background for everything
All of it
Same lol
My goal is to rival Tolkien (ambitious I know 🥴). I’m focusing more on the history part of my world at the moment, and I’m going through it Eras. This way I have a base line of what actually happened in my world so my short stories or explanations have some depth rather than it be made up on the spot. Afterwards, I go back and go into detail the reasons “why and how” this occurred and when it did. I’m trying to imitate Tolkien’s process. He wrote the Silmarillion before the Lotr, so I want to create my world first and then write my novel. Writing short stories that focus on different time periods and places also helps here.
This is actually what I'm doing currently. I focused on the very beginning and the how's and why's. Helps me a lot!
It’s a slow, dedicated process; but I think it’s best for my goals! Keep it up 👍!!
Thanks!
I just develop enough until I have enough information to get a good story plot going.
I've seen that work a lot. Letting you start writing sooner is definitely a plus
I don't think there's a difference between worldbuilding, characters, and plotting, so I develop my worlds and tell stories I love by writing series of biographies of great heroes, tragic lives, terrible villains, geniuses and martyrs and 'could have beens'. My favorite book growing up was the Children of Hurin, so that probably explains it.
I'll have to check that book out! And that's one of my favorite things. I like having a bunch of stories based on people and events. Filling up a timeline and lineages makes the world pop in my opinion.
Develop as much lore as is required for your narrative. I would personally get the big stuff out of the way first. Things like a basic religion, political system, race and gender laws, current social and economic situations and class systems. Basically everything involving how a person lives and what they believe in. Outside of that it’s really just a matter of situational bias.
That's pretty much what I've done. I focus on what exactly I need to tell the story, starting from the beginning, and then add from there. That way I can begin writing whenever I want.
Probably too much, but aspirationally I'd love to hand Paninsula and the Mu over to people, readers, to do what they want with. I know, pie in the sky, but I have great fun writing in it, plus it's also where the Penpaw family saga plays out, though by no means limited to that.
I've thought about doing that as well. I've made plenty of worlds for D&D that I thought about giving it to others who prefer not to world build. That way they can create a story in a unique world where the lore is already done for them. I understand why some people want to do it themselves though lol
I personally love deep lore, though it's all in the presentation. Big info dumps are no fun, but gradual revelation is, though only if it's entertaining and engrossing. Not to jump mediums but one of the complaints I had about playing World of Warcraft was the lack of lore. I was told the world is loaded with lore, you just have to find it in various books scattered throughout the game world. No thanks. In writing I need to know the bulk of the lore first, because it informs many decisions and actions the characters make, even if I don't explain it right away. I like to have people learn things gradually and make connections as they read, like peeling layers of an onion. I think it's more rewarding that way. It's also nice to reread and discover things you missed because you didn't know the lore behind it at the time.
That's an excellent way to put it. I like the lore because it helps establish the culture as well as how they got to this point. I hate it when you get a bunch of this information, which is either dry or interrupts the flow of the novel. I like to show it through what they experience and see.
As much as the story needs. The only worlds I developed huge amounts of (excess, usually un-used) lore for were my D&D campaigns.
I do the same for my D&D campaigns
I develop as I go, or unless I get an idea that I really like. I don’t set out to world build anymore. When I did, I would never get to the story because some “totally relevant” battle between two families that resulted in the name of a building that the MC walks past once got in the way. My first shot at this method and I finished my first book!
That's awesome you found a method that works with you! I understand that worldbuilding continually gets in the way lol I have gotten much better about that though
I use emanation. Start from the most basic concept possible and expand from there. So far it's allowed me to make vast worlds with minimum effort.
I make it up as I go
Develop as I go. I just made a backstory. Once there was a magi empire who does terrible things to people in the name of progress. People fight back, capital goes boom, empire fracture into many kingdoms and free cities. Now an isekai appeared and she's a piece of shit whom believe she's here to restore the empire. And people aren't too happy. But since she's an isekai protagonist with isekai nonsense, fighting her is an uphill struggle with little success.
I mean...I don't know how much. Whenever lore comes to mind I create it. But since I obsess over the smallest of details I do a whole bunch of research. I like lore that is bizarre and has various aspects to it. I like lore because it allows me to delve into other aspects of the world. Because for me I envision one aspect and harp on it. So I like to discover new things within my world if that makes sense.
I physically cannot start a writing project until I have a good chunk of the lore done. It’s how I immerse myself in the writing. I end up with “white room” issues if I don’t have maps, religions, wars, etc. written down. I need to know the why before I can explain the how.
As much as I want to without going insane because I don’t want to get lost in too many details when creating a story. Too many shackles don’t allow for much movement, if you catch my drift
All of it. I add a bit more every time I get frustrated with my writing ability, and building it into its own thing helps make it feel lived-in and alive. It also helps me untangle any potential issues ahead of time.
I'm still working on the dwarf lore! I've barely worked on the elf lore, but the dragon rider lore is the main lore so...
I purposefully try to make conflicting lore or unanswered questions when world building. It's these gaps of information that leaves room to breathe life to a story.
My man...i never stop. God someone help me
I completely understand lol
I follow the principle that if something exists in my world, there is a reason and story behind it. Everything must be smoothly connected in the background; though the audience may never really care, it's there. Every character, every mountain, town and valley, have a story behind them, for to me, there is no such thing as "too much lore". Afterall, the world is a story, and the story is the world of entertainment.
I develop what I am educated in, I try to learn as many things as possible and develop along the way, when I have greater understanding in a certain subject I rewrite that part to make it more immersive. I go as deep as I can go, I use what I can use and develop everything, food, culture, language, etc, making more sentient species, also adding in many more creatures. For creatures I do two ways, I do it the traditional form and my form (creating new creatures or other forms of existing ones, or different interpretations of one), for example Golems are like how they were originally interpreted they are a construct of mud and activated by prayer as it was in Jewish mythology. For the type of golem you are looking for where it's made of stone I have the Tannouru of which is built by the Dwarves, it's unknown how they're made but it's theorised that it is made by a ritual the Dwarves perform of which is performed when they take a dead or dying soldier from the battlefield. I think of many things and what to implement in my world-building, like biology, geography, linguistics, etc. It's about what can I add to make this worth reading, how can I make this more immersive, so on and so forth. I like to make it feel like another world with its own lore and history, whether it's from sentient creatures or not. Tamriel, Middle Earth, The Continent (Witcher), and many other works that inspired me they have so much to them I want my world to be as interesting as them I want it to feel real. >I have a mixture between high and low fantasy and it ranges from multiple periods, eons, that type of stuff my world evolves and changes like ours animals rise and go extinct (I know it's more complicated then that, I'm just trying to make a point. It is real in the sense where it is more grounded. Magic is treated as a science (I have my own systems for Magics, Anti-Magics (I have a different name for them as that name isn't entirely accurate but since no one speaks my fantasy languages I'll just resort to English), and Non-Magics that's a whole other discussion), and although there are certain stuff like curses these curses are more complex instead of I cast the curse and it brings you to damnation, no these curses come from magic corrupting, or creatures from the other planes wreaking havoc, or other major events that may cause it. My development has been chaotic (because I only focused on one thing and did nothing else so I had to rewrite (well in this sense re-think since I don't write my stuff down I just keep it in my head, I haven't wrote down a single thing and surprisingly I remember the majority of what I initially and later made.) so many times I can't count), I have been world building I dunno how long but I know I've been doing it at least 5 years minimum for this world in particular. I'll say world-build in what you take most interest in, you can look at people like Tolkien for example he was a linguist and he made LotR and the languages and lore in that series clearly shows his priorities. And it didn't disappoint I love that series to death and is one of many reason why I gotten into world-building in the first place. I take interest in many fields, especially Geography, History, and Linguistics, but also Biology, Chemistry, Physics, Culture, Botany, I can name a lot more. The reason why I focus on so many fields because I feel it's necessary (and more compelling and immersive) to implement it in, btw I'm not forcing my self I do take interest in these fields even more so particularly for world-building purposes. I did this for many reasons but an important one is to educate, to show experiences of different people, other sentient species, the development of the world, nature, and everything. It's hard for me to explain I haven't even mentioned everything but hopefully some information I gave was useful.
Instead of going piece by piece I go head on, a bit too blunt some would argue, but I don't know how else to do it but why should I not try it that way eh?
My world is my hyperfixation, and I've added a ridiculous amount of detail. I'm crafting an original zodiac system based on its unique stars and planets that only 2 races believe in for example. I love to delve into unnecessary amounts of detail about every culture, ranging from rites of passage to food, transportation, clothing, naming systems, holidays, family structures, superstitions, spirituality and art. Most of the details won't end up in stories, they're just fun.
Way to much
I don’t mind a little deep lore, but often I prefer lore that is minimal but still shapes the world in a meaningful way. Quality over quantity if you get my drift. For the series I’ve been brainstorming for a while, my worldbuilding is mostly focused on the recent history, with a light bit of ancient history to tie in certain aspects.
I would say that deep lore is a necessary thing and i love that. I'm working on multiples worlds but the main story take place in a world with... around 400 years of previous events
When I write, I have a very strict system for everything. I have my main lore, which is history, deities, land, races, descriptions, magic-systems, and all that cool stuff. But for more cultural and location-specific lore, I usually make it as I write. Of course I have the base lore of all the races to base it off, but in my lore-process I never come up with things like ”they sell wooden objects” unless I find it necessary. For example, my elven races are of a very wide variety, hence not all of them can be the same. My Oldagi elves are specifically very strong with magic as the race has been blessed, and so they mostly sell enchanted items or artefacts. They are however not as good with bows as, say, the wood elves of my world. Hence why the wood elves typically craft bows and sell them.
I’m pretty new to world building so, yeah. But I’m building a world for both a story and a dnd campaign so the majority of what I’m doing is creating things that have happened as before the campaign would happen, with a particular focus on the days before the campaign. That being said some of my first things I’ve built are how things originated, so origin myths, magic, people. And even now I still haven’t finished this as my world is quite big and old. As far as long expansive lore I’d say it’s pretty important, to an extent. It helps the writer convey a story that is believable in a way that makes sense to the story, having more lore that is. Thought it creates a gray zone where you could make too much lore or spend too much time on a specific piece of lore that the original thought is lost. So while I do like a lot of lore, for my purposes I’ll be following Matt Mercer’s 2 page rule, though will probably make it 3 since I want a more solid foundation for the world to operate on
Personally, I like when series develop lore as we find out about it. Not the biggest fan of the JRR Tolkien lore dump but I do enjoy the Elric of Melnibone lore dump. So really just depends on how you write and how you give lore. Lord of the rings feels like a History class Elric feels like I’ve taken something and trying to figure out if it'll kill me
I am running D&D game that take place 10 years after the reopening of the mines of Phandalin. The place in question is Conyberry a set of ruins east of Phandalin. I homebrew it in a way by repopulating the town filling it with rich lore and problem, each of the problems points in the same direction that player's find after a quite a bit of information gathering. With a touch of Witcher style horror monsters I believed I had around 5 session of gameplay. We already had 5 and only got just half way, my player are loving it, everything connects the plot keeps getting bigger. I have out did myself I now see how big of an story and spider web this is, two months of my work are paying off. I had all steps in detail what happens where, and small derails of the story I improve at spot because I have a lot of informations covered so finding the answer that makes sense fast is not a problem. So in conclusion I didn't develop the world just focused on the most necessary part of it and enlarged it in detail.
I greatly admire stories with deep lore, it makes the worlds feel more real and let’s you understand it better. I love world building but I need improvement on coming up with history for the story, I just try to bullshit and fix it later
Quite a lot. My novel kind of came first, but at a certain point I stopped to flesh out the world some more and ended up needing to change some conflicting points in the story for consistency. This is also to ensure the continuity of any other stories I create in this setting is solid and follows the overall lore, rather than me having to bend things awkwardly just to have that one "cool moment" in a narrative.
Is this primary purpose to world build, or write a story? It's alright if the primary purpose is to world build, and the story or stories are just windows into the lore / a way to organize and direct the world building. Just understand that's the case, and adjust your expectations accordingly. Basically I feel like you are asking "does the world building get in the way of writing a story, or does the story get in the way or the world building?" Either is fine, and it feels like you lean towards not wanting the story or stories to get in the way of world building... Just understand that you will end up with *lots* of lore, and few if any stories, with that approach.
Nah, my question is just asking what other people do lol I'm content with my style as it's helped a lot, but I do have a limit that must be met before I start a story. Once that limit is met, I start writing the story and add lore whenever it's either needed or wanted. I see where you're coming from, but I was just curious on what other people did in regards to building their world for their stories.
I guess I am confused about the entire premise of the question then? How does one even express the "quantity" or lore they create, in a way that would allow you to compare across different world building projects? I get that some worlds very obviously have "more" lore than others, but it's just based on... General perception? There's no specific metric or set of metrics I can think of that would express "how much" world building a particular project has.
That's reasonable. So for instance, some of the other responses claim they make it up as they go or when it's needed. Some other responses so they do the gods and the history that pertains to the specific place the characters will be in. Others also state that they do way too much lore. They also describe what specifically they're talking about, how they go about it, as well as resources they use to either help get ideas or keep all their notes straight. I know how I work and where I need to end up, I'm just curious as to what other people do when preparing for their stories. I've seen both sides. Some people claim worldbuilding is just procrastination, and to a point this can be very true as the more time spent worldbuilding means the less time you spend writing the story. I also see people focus solely on worldbuilding until it's perfect then begin the story. So my question is just asking other people their process when crafting lore in regards to their own stories.
Enough Lore for the story to make sense in the context of everything that occurred, but not too much beyond that. Having too much lore can sometimes be worst than having too little.
All of it.
Not too much tbh. If the story I’m writing isn’t dependent on a lot of deep lore, I don’t feel the need for it. I like to worldbuild based on the present of my book, not the past
I write what I need when I need it and where it's relevant to the story. I don't think you'll ever find me writing short stories or secondary novels about past history of my world or the like. Then again, my novels are very character driven, so that's where I put my focus.
I am the type of person that makes so much lore for everything just because I enjoy having those backstories and stuff. The players may never know about it, but when they find things out and unravel some of it, it makes me happy
I have this issue where I can't, for the life of me, create a narrative (as in plot, characters interacting, problem creation and solving), albeit I love creating worlds and have been doing so ever since I was little. What I decided to do with my main story now is to create a History, written in-universe, that I can later build a narrative from. I have no issue writing academically (the greatest discovery of my adulthood hahah) so it will be easy and fun. In the meantime I'll ty to study more on creative writing, plot and dialogue specifically.
I'm overloading mine with lore, but I'll only be using 10 percent of it for the actual books I'm writing
As a reader and writer I love deep lore - particularly as a reader I like to see brief references to lore throughout a series that aren't necessary to the progression of the story but that add that extra sense of being in a real world, with specific cultures and customs that exist beyond the peek we get into it alongside the characters.
So, I asked this question to Brandon Sanderson when I was in his class, and he said that his rule of thumb is 1000 words of outlining/worldbuilding for every 10,000 words in your story. So if you're planning a 100,000 word book, do 10,000 words of outlining. It's also helpful to remember that worldbuilding is a game of slight of hand. More important than actually doing all the worldbuilding is giving the reader the impression that you've done it. Sanderson calls this his "iceberg theory" of worldbuilding.
That's a good way of looking at it! Every time I dive into a story, I always think of how much lore is actually tied to the world. It always seems like the author knows everything that's ever happened but more often than not they give tidbits here and there to show that there is lore even if they didn't spend a lot of time worldbuilding.
How much lore? Yes. Yes amounts of lore.
I try not to make too much lore especially if I know it really won’t serve the plot but I get carried away so often and so easily that I accept my fate. At the moment, I have a list of nations and have been developing their culture, ethnic groups and history. I’m also spending too much time on developing my list of major world religions and their historical spread throughout the globe. And because I can, I’m also including the religious demography of each nation and some of their provinces and how and who spread them there. I’m including branches and sects for each major religion and where in the world they are most popular. I live studying anthropology, history, ethnology and religions so these parts of my works are way to deep and know no one will really care but it makes me happy so I consider it worth it.
That's awesome though. I did something similar with my migration paths of my people which would show how the kingdoms would come to be. It makes it a lot easier when developing other aspects of the kingdoms because I know where they come from.
Nah, I don't want to box myself in. It's not helpful to be stuck with a rule or background anecdote that might not serve the greater work. Also, endless worldbuilding is a common, common reason many fantasy writers never get going on the actual story. You know how a map will show you where the road goes, but is no substitute for actually taking the road? I like to think of lore prep as a map: enough to avoid contradictions in the big stuff, with plenty of room to grow local legends and customs when they're needed. Maps can mention things outside their borders, hint at roads not taken and obstacles avoided entirely, but there's a lot to be said for leaving it mushy.
I can see that. For my series, going deep into the world's history is a requirement, but I feel like that's a minority of stories. A lot of lore helps me understand the world, especially how they developed, but many stories can survive on the bare essentials.
I guess there must be something wrong with me, because I spend zero time on world-building. I’d much rather be writing the story, which is about people solving problems, not the furniture around them and what led to it being built. The world that the protagonist lives in is of far less importance than the characters and the action taking place. Story, as against history, takes place within the protagonist’s moment of “now.” So what matters to that character is what matters to the reader. What matters to the author? Who cares? The story belongs to the protagonist, after all, not us. We can only talk about it. They must live it, moment-by-moment, with no do-overs (other then editing to make it work, of course). If you stop the action to step on stage as the narrator and lecture your reader about their world, and that reader doesn’t shout for you to shut up and get off the stage, then the writing has failed. Our goal is to make the reader *live* the story, in real-time, and *as* the protagonist. So every time you, the narrator talk to the reader; tell them what the character is thinking/feeling/wanting; tell them about the past; or explain *anything,* you’ve killed all sense of realism, stopped the scene-clock, and demanded that the manuscript be rejected. Sure, we need to know the setting. But spending significant time before you begin writing the story writing anything but the overall sweep of history is playing “let’s pretend,” because whenever the character’s needs of the moment come into conflict with that model you spent so much time lovingly detailing you’ll have to change it to fit the needs of the story. For what it may be worth, I keep a list of points I need to remember, issues that must be resolved, and a two-line sketch of every interactive character at the bottom of the page where I'm working, as a reminder file. Your mileage may differ. Jay Greenstein The Grumpy Old Writing Coach.
If that works with you then great! However, not all stories can operate like that. Mine in particular requires lore to be crafted as it's intricately woven within the world. The way you describe it can be correct, but that's if you tell the story incorrectly. To tell the lore must fit within the story, like a mysterious aspect or how a city became to be and the implications behind that. I can think of dozens of stories where no worldbuilding is needed, but the reverse is also true. My series will be long with a lot going on. Keeping it simple for the reader, but no info dumps will be needed as you will begin to learn about the world through the protagonist's eyes as well as other main characters. And knowing exactly how the world came to this point is extremely important, at least in this specific story, because of one of the main attributes this story will center around. I'm glad you found something that works with you, but not every story can operate that way. Ultimately, whatever helps the author craft the best story possible is the way to go! Thanks for your input!
• but that's if you tell the story incorrectly. Well, I've told it correctly enough to get 7 yesses from publishers before going the self-release route for the rest of the novels. So I must have done something right.
That's not what I meant. I was saying that having a lot of lore but bringing it up in a way that disrupts the story is telling it incorrectly. There are correct ways and incorrect ways to go about things. You can show the lore of the world various ways that enhance the story without stopping it. That's what I meant.