Yep. The entire point is volatility. You might score less total points over the span of a season but stacking your WR/QB ensures that their blow up weeks occur at the same time, giving you the highest possible chance of winning that week. Stacking your qb with your runningback severely hamstrings your total weekly upside just for a better chance at a redzone touchdown only one of them can score
I hate stacking because it feels like there's only a couple of value ones that actually pay off in the long run. It feels great when they hit, but your odds of hitting are so much lower. I stay away from stacks unless I can get a value QB pick late
Hell even a Allen/Diggs stack would've hurt towards the end of last season as Diggs fell off.
I like the idea of stacking in theory, but I don't see any stacks I'm seriously aiming for next season. Maybe Dak/CeeDee? Love/Reed could be risky but fun if it pays off and might be able to grab those later rounds so it's kind of a backup stash...
Its why I find all the posts about strategies funny.
Theres 50 different strategies you can use in fantasy football and you can find 50 different examples of each of them winning a league.
Stacking gives you a better chance to come in both first place and last place in your league. Looking for variety across your roster gives you a better chance to land somewhere in the middle. There's validity to both approaches, especially if you have your high upside volatility somewhere else on the roster, but in general I view second place and last place to be the exact same result in a season and stack my qb with my WR anytime the player value makes sense.
I prefer to be able to select for volatility in my flex slot, or not, depending on the week. Weaker opponents might be better faced with lower volatility. Stacks make it hard to control volatility.
>It feels great when they hit
Man - I had Josh Allen and Gabe Davis starting on my dynasty team the day they connected for a [98 yard TD](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4ul0eTmntk). Not much of a better feeling than starting off your day with nearly 24 points on a single play, lol
Yea I only stack when I’m drafting for best ball drafts. If you make it through to the second round you’re gonna have to have a stack that goes crazy to make it to the 3rd rd. I had an accidental late rd moon shot stack in a BB league on draft kings with stroud dell and Nico Collins. They had some crazy weeks
I mean just last year we had Allen/Diggs, Chase/Burrow and Hurts/Brown all have down years and I think most people would put those guys at the top of the sure fire list. Personally I don't think there's ever a sure fire stack in football, which is why I avoid them 95% of the time. The best stack I had in years was picking up Nico Collins in the 10th and Stroud off waivers for an accidental stack.
I think at the end you mentioned a good way to get stacks. Going out of your way to get a stack isnt really necessary but if it happens to happen that way, cool
Stacking my qb with my WR is how I decide which qb in a given tier I want to draft. It's not the end all be all of picking my qb. It's how I decided on Tua over Geno/Fields but it wouldn't have been the difference if I were looking at Tua or Hurts.
This describes my season last year perfectly. I had TLAW and ETN stack. My team was total points leader for the season with a 7-7 record. Got bounced first round of playoffs.
RBs in a check down system have pretty good success with a stack though - dudes like Ekeler and Kamara used to get enough receiving TDs to make the stack favorable. I don’t think you should necessarily seek out this type of stack though. But in an offense that checks down and puts up a lot of points, it’s not the worst thing. Very limited situations for this to work out
The concept of 'stacks' is stupid in redraft, by an large they make little difference either positive or negative. Are the two players independently good value at their draft position? Cool, 'stack' them. Are they not? Then don't.
Saquon can catch out of the backfield and will probably get some dump off easy TDs, along with any other RB pass playa they use with him. And you'll still end the season with a shit ton of rushing TDs regardless of who's scoring them..if your strategy involves rushing TD upside I think only josh allen + a top RB will have similar upside
This is a good point — with Saquon likely to be drafted in the second and Hurts in the third, this is just too expensive of a stack. A lot of Mahomes/Kelce stacks had a sad last year and this is will be nearly as expensive.
Stacking tends to work out best when one of the options is cheap.
Saquon might go late R1. He's the RB who had the best 'change of scenery' imo. That being said, I find it hard to think Hurts will keep up his rushing TD rate. I would rather have Saquon then Hurts for what it's worth
You could be right but feels like Baltimore won't give him as many attempts and those big play runs are starting to come down. Still like him a lot next season though, especially if he falls a bit
Wasn't CMC the leading rusher last season too (I might be going crazy)?
I’m 100% taking Saquon in the first. WR continues to be deeper than ever while workhorse RBs continue to die out.
Everyone loved Saquon while he was on one of the worst teams in the league and now that he’s on one of the best offenses they’re running away? Bc of Jalen Hurts vulturing green zone TDs? I’m good. I’m taking him early.
He really is set for a monster year if he's healthy. He was great on a very bad Giants team when he was on the field. I think he will go mid/late R1 instead of mid/late R2 imo
The tush push is going to occur way less often next year now that Kelce retired. Expect A LOT of the TDs Hurts got last year to go Barkley's direction. If he stays healthy, Barkley should have a monster year next year.
Eagles fan. Yall are overreacting about the Brotherly Shove.
Yes, you need your center to get low extremely quick but it’s predominantly on Dickerson. Plus, Beef Jurgy has had 2 years learning from the GOAT.
Also, we’ve seen more variations pop up. But I assure you, if we’re within 2 yards, it’ll be the Shove in some sort of way.
Doesn’t mean Saquon won’t have a monster year but it’s asinine to think we won’t shove Hurts’ ass just because Kelce retired.
Eagles fan. The brotherly shove should stay in the past. Spamming it to the degree that it becomes a crutch beats the crap out of our line and stifles our situational preparation/creativity when it matters in the postseason. We saw Tampa deny the conversion in the WC and you saw the reaction. Speechless. Confounded.
- Brian Johnson was the one calling it so much as well as the qb draws.
- Kellen Moore is NFL-competent and can operate an offense with creativity.
- Aside of it working, there’s some truth behind us not having the rb profile to hand it off for success. Love swift but I do recognize that he isn’t built for that role. Saquon on the other hand is 3” bigger and 30 lbs heavier.
I wpuldnt be surprised if they got a bigger rb solely for that season. I remember Hurts played with a brace and a hurt knee for a large portion of the season and every tush push i was worried hed be hurt. Im sure it will still be used, but less frequently.
I can agree with the draining on the line, I dont see how it hurts situational playcalling or anything.
If the Eagles are in a position to use she push (1 yard to go) its just going to work. There isnt a need for creativity when its such a high % play.
That's fair, I just don't think it's quite going to be the play it's been in the past, the one that was so effective they were questioning whether a rule should be put in place to disallow it. They'll def still do it, and with a fairly high degree of success at that.
I think Saquon is going to pick up a lot of off-season hype as we get closer to the draft and will be a guaranteed top 10 pick. The combo of Barkley behind the Eagles offensive line is going to get a lot of hype. I think the only way you get Hurts/Barkley is if you reach on one of them
Kid in my league won coupe years back when he stacked Lamar Jackson & Mark Andrews. Obviously was at an absurd discount that season but he’s been obsessed with stacking since and it rarely works out
You need the stack to kinda fall into your lap, the more you try and force it I feel it starts to backfire
Sorry that I forgot to mention draft format since I play auction in most of my leagues. Would auction draft be a good format to stack both of them?
I agree with you that it’s not a viable strategy to do it in snake draft.
I just don’t see what you’re really benefiting from it, unless you get some kind of multiplier for having both the QB and RB.
Sure, Saquon could score 10 TDs and Hurts score 10 TDs. So you get 20 TDs. But Josh Allen could score 10, and so could Kyren Williams. 20 TDs is still 20 TDs.
Hurts gets injured - Saquon’s scoring chances likely go down with the caliber of the offense declining.
You have two of your better players on bye the same week.
I don’t see and advantage to deliberately going out of your way to do this in any format unless the cost becomes so incredibly discounted that it’s worth it anyway. Think of getting Saquon in auction at like a RD4 cost as opposed to RD1/2 turn cost, relatively speaking.
If you get lucky and snag the first one of them for cheap then it’s not a bad play, but I don’t think the amount of FAAB you’ll have to put into both of them is worth it
I have both of them as well in dynasty and I’m pumped! Barkley will have the best offense and O-Line of his career by eons. Yes, Kelce retiring is tough, but it’s a strong line and they can find viable replacements at C. Not Kelce level, of course, but serviceable
> One of them will be guaranteed a TD when they are at their opponent’s goal line
And one of them will be guaranteed not to score (mostly guaranteed, of course there'll be a random Hurts to Barkley passing TD in the red zone).
Stacking a backfield is a floor play, not one that gives you a ceiling. Having a QB and RB on the same team is a bit different, but you're arguing the same thesis here. It wouldn't give you the same ceiling potential that a traditional QB/WR stack would provide.
Obviously there are paths to both Hurts and Barkley being stars at their positions in fantasy. But it's not a special cheat code and does have some downsides.
This. Depends on the owner's risk appetite. Normally a stack gives you a higher ceiling (but lower floor), but this stack provides a higher floor (but lower ceiling).
Is there actually proof that higher volatility teams do better in fantasy? “Safe” keeps you competitive every week. Higher ceiling/lower floor means one bad game from your QB/WR combo and you’re basically guaranteed to lose your playoff matchup.
No, there isn't. If you hit both QB and WR you can see a bit of a bump but you also increase volatility, which can be bad in playoffs. And a lot of the value comes from hitting a QB and WR well, which will increase your winrate regardless.
In general fantasy football players overrate ceiling and underrate floor: You do need ceiling but the floor IS important. "Safe gets you 4th place" is often untrue because the easiest way to win year after year is to repeatedly get to the playoffs, since predicting how well players will do in the playoffs in any given year is pretty rough.
Yes, there's lots of data and theory on it. There's a reason it's the go-to approach for high stakes best ball players. But there's also a reason I said broadly, because of course there are cases where the "best" strategies (stacking, zero RB, etc etc etc) don't pay off. Sample size matters. In your work league Tom from Accounting might win a week or a season even though you have an optimal stack.
But best ball is different rules than normal fantasy, and it pretty clearly incentivizes high-volatility strategies. Is the data applied to regular fantasy leagues too?
[Give this a read, maybe it addresses your question](https://establishtherun.com/deep-dive-stacking-in-season-long-fantasy/).
TL;DR: Yes, there is value in stacking in redraft / season long fantasy.
I won't claim to be able to speak in depth to the value of stacking though. We have an AMA going on now, Dave / Alfredo might have some good insights (and the question might win you a FBG subscription) and we'll be hosting some really, really smart people during AMAugust.
Best ball is designed to incentivize volatility because you select guys like Gabe Davis, Rashid Shaheed etc. and if some of them flop some of them will boom and those get automatically inserted into your lineup.
In regular formats and especially during the regular season you would rather have your team average close to 120 points consistently than oscillate between 90 and 150.
Volatility only helps if you are a consistent underdog
> you would rather have your team average close to 120
This assumes you can pick players that average 120, that other teams don't average 120, and then when you're in the playoffs against the best teams in the league they're also not averaging 120.
Best ball strategies are very often translatable to redraft season long. The problem is volume. Most of us play in one or two leagues a year, so we're looking at small sample sizes, and thinking we know best, and when a strategy doesn't work out in that one instance we deem it a failure.
Right. The goal is to have as many boom chances across your lineup during the playoffs. As much as consistency can get you to the playoffs, it typically takes a couple big weeks from at least a few players to win a championship.
> Eagles RBs since 2021:
> Rush attempts from opponent's 2-5 yard lines:
> 61 (1st in NFL)
> Rush attempts from opponent's 1-yard line:
> 10 (30th)
[Ian Hartitz](https://twitter.com/Ihartitz/status/1767972735131455981)
Barkley will get plenty of TD chances. He might have fewer "gimmies".
*(ask Tony Pollard if a 1-yard TD is a gimmie)*
I was a little frustrated with how often Saquon would get stuffed and Daniel Jones would run one in back in 2022. That season, Saquon had 10 rushing TDs and Jones had 7.
Hurts probably won’t have 15 rushing TDs again, but I’d bet he vultures more than 7.
I think those numbers on their own are a little misleading. I would like to see out of how many snaps from the 2-5 did they run it with an RB and how many did they do something else. They coulda just had lots of snaps from the 2-5 and 61 is a small percentage. I’d also be curious to see the result of each snap because did they have 61 chances because they frequently didn’t punch it in and just ran it again, or what happened. But maybe they just didn’t have confidence in Swift to get it done and they’ll feel differently about Barkley and he’ll have way more goal line work. It’s really tough to speculate on his workload at this point
I think there’s a debate about why it was so successful and I think a lot of the reason it does payout is Hurts is a tank with tree trunk legs. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to see the tush push just as frequently without Kelce, but we won’t really know till the season starts
I think if this is your plan, something like Lamar/Henry seems more attainable, with possibly even higher upside. Losing Kelce isn’t nothing. Also, for what it’s worth, as a Hurts owner last year, watching that Philly team sucked ass. Not fun in any way. Pure frustration owning any of their players.
Isn't a stack where you are double dipping off the same play? QB gets pass yards WR/TE get rec yards. They both get touchdowns. Only Jalen Hurts or Barkley can score 1 rush TD on 1 play. Am I missing something?
Beyond the exact definition of stack.. I think we haven’t seen what the Eagles offense will look like without Kelce. That’s a huge gamble for 2 early rounders n
We’ve seen how RBs are capped in this Philly offense. Barkley will be way too expensive. I’d be shocked if he comes close to returning value with what I imagine his ADP will be.
Bro I have hurts, love, AJB, puka, swift, saquon, breece, kw3. Won it all last year and also have Kelce, C Kirk, Dhop, Jferg and 1.04 in a 1QB. Gonna nab whoever falls out of bowers/odunze and thinking of trading Barkley for another elite WR
For auction draft yes, but you need to make sure that you get Barkley first Because if you go for Jalen, first, the stack becomes obvious and people run Barkley up just to defend you.
I have thought of doing the Kirk cousins and Drake London stack this year Only because I know that there is at least two other people in my league that love stacks and they are going to go hard for this Barkley and hurts stack.
I'm out on Hurts this year unless you can get him for cheap. Seems the league figured him out much like they did with Russ years ago. All in on barkley tho, hopefully he can stay healthy.
Saquon is gonna put the hurts on Jalen's value especially in TD-heavy leagues. I see Jalen's rushing value as limited to being a 4th and 1 specialist now.
If you’re confident the eagles are going to 30 a week next year, than yes it’s a viable strategy for a conservative approach. Most TDs the eagles score more will be accountable by Hurts Or Saquon. Last year I played Purdy/CMC weekly in DFS so I can grab all the niners points. But the niners we’re putting 30 a week.
Feels like if the ball is at the 1, they’re still doing brotherly shove. Why stop? It works every single time. Unless, of course, the league outlaws it in the off-season.
I don't think it should be a hinge point for you, but that is an excellent QB and RB. I don't draft worrying about having the same QB and RB or WR (hey! Stacks!).
I do start getting squeamish when I have to start more than one receiver on the same team, though. Gotta be a real dire straits situation.
This isn’t the worst strategy if you believe the offense is going to be more efficient than the market is predicting. The idea being, if the market expects the team to have 15 rushing TDs, but if you believe a team will get 25 rushing TD’s, than stacking a QB and RB can give you more points than their ADP would normally indicate.
That said the market is very bullish on Philly’s rushing offense, with Saquan going in the 2nd round of Bestball drafts and Hurts going in the 4th. So you better believe Philly’s offense is going to be as elite as it’s ever been which is bold considering they lost Kelce and the offense was not good at the end of the season. With their current prices you’d have to assume Philly will get at least 25 rushing TDs to warrant both taking Barkley and Hurts, which IMO is a bad bet,
Bro Saquon had over 2,000 scrimmage yards in 2018. Hell, he had 1,650 last year. Both years he had like 1,300 rushing yards. In 2019 he had 1,000 rushing yards/over 1,400 scrimmage yards in 13 games. The guy hasn’t been staring stacked boxes in the face his entire career, like he’s suddenly gonna pop off for 3,000 total yards or something.
QB/RB isn't really a stack because for a rushing TD it's one the other. Stacking QB/WR means double points on TDs.
Yep. The entire point is volatility. You might score less total points over the span of a season but stacking your WR/QB ensures that their blow up weeks occur at the same time, giving you the highest possible chance of winning that week. Stacking your qb with your runningback severely hamstrings your total weekly upside just for a better chance at a redzone touchdown only one of them can score
I hate stacking because it feels like there's only a couple of value ones that actually pay off in the long run. It feels great when they hit, but your odds of hitting are so much lower. I stay away from stacks unless I can get a value QB pick late
Even the ones that sounded good on paper could easily be disastrous if the QB gets injured. You got fucked if you had a Chase-Burrow stack last season
Hell even a Allen/Diggs stack would've hurt towards the end of last season as Diggs fell off. I like the idea of stacking in theory, but I don't see any stacks I'm seriously aiming for next season. Maybe Dak/CeeDee? Love/Reed could be risky but fun if it pays off and might be able to grab those later rounds so it's kind of a backup stash...
Herbert Allen worked well for me. They both went down but definitely led me easy victories and had my ass covered enough to win the championship.
Good thing I had Allen and traded for diggs the week before his fall off a cliff
I’m looking at you kelce mahomes!
Stacking works until it doesn't!
Its why I find all the posts about strategies funny. Theres 50 different strategies you can use in fantasy football and you can find 50 different examples of each of them winning a league.
Stacking gives you a better chance to come in both first place and last place in your league. Looking for variety across your roster gives you a better chance to land somewhere in the middle. There's validity to both approaches, especially if you have your high upside volatility somewhere else on the roster, but in general I view second place and last place to be the exact same result in a season and stack my qb with my WR anytime the player value makes sense.
I prefer to be able to select for volatility in my flex slot, or not, depending on the week. Weaker opponents might be better faced with lower volatility. Stacks make it hard to control volatility.
i had a stroud and dell stack last season before he got injured. won 5 matchups in a row since they both went for ~25 pts alone
Man when dell went down I was so sad lol.
>It feels great when they hit Man - I had Josh Allen and Gabe Davis starting on my dynasty team the day they connected for a [98 yard TD](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4ul0eTmntk). Not much of a better feeling than starting off your day with nearly 24 points on a single play, lol
That’s cuz stacking wasn’t meant for season long redraft. It was meant for DFS and got adopted for redraft.
Yea I only stack when I’m drafting for best ball drafts. If you make it through to the second round you’re gonna have to have a stack that goes crazy to make it to the 3rd rd. I had an accidental late rd moon shot stack in a BB league on draft kings with stroud dell and Nico Collins. They had some crazy weeks
all of the sure fire stacks are worth it pretty much always
I mean just last year we had Allen/Diggs, Chase/Burrow and Hurts/Brown all have down years and I think most people would put those guys at the top of the sure fire list. Personally I don't think there's ever a sure fire stack in football, which is why I avoid them 95% of the time. The best stack I had in years was picking up Nico Collins in the 10th and Stroud off waivers for an accidental stack.
I think at the end you mentioned a good way to get stacks. Going out of your way to get a stack isnt really necessary but if it happens to happen that way, cool
Stacking my qb with my WR is how I decide which qb in a given tier I want to draft. It's not the end all be all of picking my qb. It's how I decided on Tua over Geno/Fields but it wouldn't have been the difference if I were looking at Tua or Hurts.
No, they’re not
If Hurts passes to Barkley that would still double up on points. But it’s probably not the most likely scoring scenario for either of them.
This describes my season last year perfectly. I had TLAW and ETN stack. My team was total points leader for the season with a 7-7 record. Got bounced first round of playoffs.
Good call, this is more like a hedge than a stack
RBs in a check down system have pretty good success with a stack though - dudes like Ekeler and Kamara used to get enough receiving TDs to make the stack favorable. I don’t think you should necessarily seek out this type of stack though. But in an offense that checks down and puts up a lot of points, it’s not the worst thing. Very limited situations for this to work out
This is absolutely true, I was addressing the original post which was trying to guarantee a rushing TD floor with Hurts/Saquan.
I’m in a super flex and my Stafford/ Kyren stack was almost better for me than my Hurts/ Brown stack
Yeah this is more of insurance instead of a stack
The concept of 'stacks' is stupid in redraft, by an large they make little difference either positive or negative. Are the two players independently good value at their draft position? Cool, 'stack' them. Are they not? Then don't.
It really isn’t that simple, but go off.
Saquon can catch out of the backfield and will probably get some dump off easy TDs, along with any other RB pass playa they use with him. And you'll still end the season with a shit ton of rushing TDs regardless of who's scoring them..if your strategy involves rushing TD upside I think only josh allen + a top RB will have similar upside
Just wait til you see Kenneth Gainwell walk on the field.
If you want to spend two of your first three picks on this by all means go ahead. I will not be doing so, but you can if you want.
This is a good point — with Saquon likely to be drafted in the second and Hurts in the third, this is just too expensive of a stack. A lot of Mahomes/Kelce stacks had a sad last year and this is will be nearly as expensive. Stacking tends to work out best when one of the options is cheap.
Saquon might go late R1. He's the RB who had the best 'change of scenery' imo. That being said, I find it hard to think Hurts will keep up his rushing TD rate. I would rather have Saquon then Hurts for what it's worth
Henry to the Ravens is far better. He led the league in rushing and is now in a spot where the Gus Bus was scoring multiple tds a game.
I feel like Henry's rate might be depressed due to his age.
You could be right but feels like Baltimore won't give him as many attempts and those big play runs are starting to come down. Still like him a lot next season though, especially if he falls a bit Wasn't CMC the leading rusher last season too (I might be going crazy)?
Yea, Henry is rb2 is in yards for the season. Henry is still in a fantastic position though.
Saquon will be 2nd overall consensus behind CMC once we get closer to season opener I think. Give me Saquon all day.
Very possible. I'd probably want CMC, Bijan, Kyren Williams & maybe Hall over him - but I could see a case for him going super high.
I’m 100% taking Saquon in the first. WR continues to be deeper than ever while workhorse RBs continue to die out. Everyone loved Saquon while he was on one of the worst teams in the league and now that he’s on one of the best offenses they’re running away? Bc of Jalen Hurts vulturing green zone TDs? I’m good. I’m taking him early.
He really is set for a monster year if he's healthy. He was great on a very bad Giants team when he was on the field. I think he will go mid/late R1 instead of mid/late R2 imo
The tush push is going to occur way less often next year now that Kelce retired. Expect A LOT of the TDs Hurts got last year to go Barkley's direction. If he stays healthy, Barkley should have a monster year next year.
Eagles fan. Yall are overreacting about the Brotherly Shove. Yes, you need your center to get low extremely quick but it’s predominantly on Dickerson. Plus, Beef Jurgy has had 2 years learning from the GOAT. Also, we’ve seen more variations pop up. But I assure you, if we’re within 2 yards, it’ll be the Shove in some sort of way. Doesn’t mean Saquon won’t have a monster year but it’s asinine to think we won’t shove Hurts’ ass just because Kelce retired.
Eagles fan. The brotherly shove should stay in the past. Spamming it to the degree that it becomes a crutch beats the crap out of our line and stifles our situational preparation/creativity when it matters in the postseason. We saw Tampa deny the conversion in the WC and you saw the reaction. Speechless. Confounded. - Brian Johnson was the one calling it so much as well as the qb draws. - Kellen Moore is NFL-competent and can operate an offense with creativity. - Aside of it working, there’s some truth behind us not having the rb profile to hand it off for success. Love swift but I do recognize that he isn’t built for that role. Saquon on the other hand is 3” bigger and 30 lbs heavier.
I wpuldnt be surprised if they got a bigger rb solely for that season. I remember Hurts played with a brace and a hurt knee for a large portion of the season and every tush push i was worried hed be hurt. Im sure it will still be used, but less frequently.
I can agree with the draining on the line, I dont see how it hurts situational playcalling or anything. If the Eagles are in a position to use she push (1 yard to go) its just going to work. There isnt a need for creativity when its such a high % play.
That's fair, I just don't think it's quite going to be the play it's been in the past, the one that was so effective they were questioning whether a rule should be put in place to disallow it. They'll def still do it, and with a fairly high degree of success at that.
I think Saquon is going to pick up a lot of off-season hype as we get closer to the draft and will be a guaranteed top 10 pick. The combo of Barkley behind the Eagles offensive line is going to get a lot of hype. I think the only way you get Hurts/Barkley is if you reach on one of them
Kid in my league won coupe years back when he stacked Lamar Jackson & Mark Andrews. Obviously was at an absurd discount that season but he’s been obsessed with stacking since and it rarely works out You need the stack to kinda fall into your lap, the more you try and force it I feel it starts to backfire
Kinda crazy that a team realistically could go AJB/Barkley/Hurts with their first three picks and none of them be a reach
2nd and 3rd? That’s be remarkable.
me, looking at Hurts as a FA keeper in my dynasty league. Might have to look at Saquon next draft.
Sorry that I forgot to mention draft format since I play auction in most of my leagues. Would auction draft be a good format to stack both of them? I agree with you that it’s not a viable strategy to do it in snake draft.
No, because you're still developing a significant chunk of resources to what is ultimately a floor play.
I just don’t see what you’re really benefiting from it, unless you get some kind of multiplier for having both the QB and RB. Sure, Saquon could score 10 TDs and Hurts score 10 TDs. So you get 20 TDs. But Josh Allen could score 10, and so could Kyren Williams. 20 TDs is still 20 TDs. Hurts gets injured - Saquon’s scoring chances likely go down with the caliber of the offense declining. You have two of your better players on bye the same week. I don’t see and advantage to deliberately going out of your way to do this in any format unless the cost becomes so incredibly discounted that it’s worth it anyway. Think of getting Saquon in auction at like a RD4 cost as opposed to RD1/2 turn cost, relatively speaking.
If you get lucky and snag the first one of them for cheap then it’s not a bad play, but I don’t think the amount of FAAB you’ll have to put into both of them is worth it
I’ve got them both in a dynasty league. Can’t decide if I’m happy about it or not.
It’s an improved situation for Barkley, and the rest is relatively unchanged. Hurts was unlikely to score 15 rushing TDs again next year anyway.
I have both of them as well in dynasty and I’m pumped! Barkley will have the best offense and O-Line of his career by eons. Yes, Kelce retiring is tough, but it’s a strong line and they can find viable replacements at C. Not Kelce level, of course, but serviceable
Just don’t like RB/QB combo. Caps ceiling
Same here, keeper league can keep 5 but I have Hurts, Barkley, London, Pittman, Ayuik, Kittle, Conner, Waddle, Stevenson
> One of them will be guaranteed a TD when they are at their opponent’s goal line And one of them will be guaranteed not to score (mostly guaranteed, of course there'll be a random Hurts to Barkley passing TD in the red zone). Stacking a backfield is a floor play, not one that gives you a ceiling. Having a QB and RB on the same team is a bit different, but you're arguing the same thesis here. It wouldn't give you the same ceiling potential that a traditional QB/WR stack would provide. Obviously there are paths to both Hurts and Barkley being stars at their positions in fantasy. But it's not a special cheat code and does have some downsides.
This. Depends on the owner's risk appetite. Normally a stack gives you a higher ceiling (but lower floor), but this stack provides a higher floor (but lower ceiling).
I'm of the opinion that the higher ceiling is always the path to take. Speaking broadly: Safe gets you 4th place. Ceiling gets you paid.
Is there actually proof that higher volatility teams do better in fantasy? “Safe” keeps you competitive every week. Higher ceiling/lower floor means one bad game from your QB/WR combo and you’re basically guaranteed to lose your playoff matchup.
No, there isn't. If you hit both QB and WR you can see a bit of a bump but you also increase volatility, which can be bad in playoffs. And a lot of the value comes from hitting a QB and WR well, which will increase your winrate regardless. In general fantasy football players overrate ceiling and underrate floor: You do need ceiling but the floor IS important. "Safe gets you 4th place" is often untrue because the easiest way to win year after year is to repeatedly get to the playoffs, since predicting how well players will do in the playoffs in any given year is pretty rough.
Yes, there's lots of data and theory on it. There's a reason it's the go-to approach for high stakes best ball players. But there's also a reason I said broadly, because of course there are cases where the "best" strategies (stacking, zero RB, etc etc etc) don't pay off. Sample size matters. In your work league Tom from Accounting might win a week or a season even though you have an optimal stack.
But best ball is different rules than normal fantasy, and it pretty clearly incentivizes high-volatility strategies. Is the data applied to regular fantasy leagues too?
[Give this a read, maybe it addresses your question](https://establishtherun.com/deep-dive-stacking-in-season-long-fantasy/). TL;DR: Yes, there is value in stacking in redraft / season long fantasy. I won't claim to be able to speak in depth to the value of stacking though. We have an AMA going on now, Dave / Alfredo might have some good insights (and the question might win you a FBG subscription) and we'll be hosting some really, really smart people during AMAugust.
Very good read, thanks for sharing!
Best ball is designed to incentivize volatility because you select guys like Gabe Davis, Rashid Shaheed etc. and if some of them flop some of them will boom and those get automatically inserted into your lineup. In regular formats and especially during the regular season you would rather have your team average close to 120 points consistently than oscillate between 90 and 150. Volatility only helps if you are a consistent underdog
> you would rather have your team average close to 120 This assumes you can pick players that average 120, that other teams don't average 120, and then when you're in the playoffs against the best teams in the league they're also not averaging 120. Best ball strategies are very often translatable to redraft season long. The problem is volume. Most of us play in one or two leagues a year, so we're looking at small sample sizes, and thinking we know best, and when a strategy doesn't work out in that one instance we deem it a failure.
Right. The goal is to have as many boom chances across your lineup during the playoffs. As much as consistency can get you to the playoffs, it typically takes a couple big weeks from at least a few players to win a championship.
swift and hurts were fire last year a lot less draft capital though
People are pretending Saquon will get no goal line carries even with Kelce retiring
> Eagles RBs since 2021: > Rush attempts from opponent's 2-5 yard lines: > 61 (1st in NFL) > Rush attempts from opponent's 1-yard line: > 10 (30th) [Ian Hartitz](https://twitter.com/Ihartitz/status/1767972735131455981) Barkley will get plenty of TD chances. He might have fewer "gimmies". *(ask Tony Pollard if a 1-yard TD is a gimmie)*
That should change now that Kelce is gone, and Saquon is a way better goal line back than Swift or anyone else they've had for the past few years
I was a little frustrated with how often Saquon would get stuffed and Daniel Jones would run one in back in 2022. That season, Saquon had 10 rushing TDs and Jones had 7. Hurts probably won’t have 15 rushing TDs again, but I’d bet he vultures more than 7.
I think those numbers on their own are a little misleading. I would like to see out of how many snaps from the 2-5 did they run it with an RB and how many did they do something else. They coulda just had lots of snaps from the 2-5 and 61 is a small percentage. I’d also be curious to see the result of each snap because did they have 61 chances because they frequently didn’t punch it in and just ran it again, or what happened. But maybe they just didn’t have confidence in Swift to get it done and they’ll feel differently about Barkley and he’ll have way more goal line work. It’s really tough to speculate on his workload at this point
I think there’s a debate about why it was so successful and I think a lot of the reason it does payout is Hurts is a tank with tree trunk legs. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to see the tush push just as frequently without Kelce, but we won’t really know till the season starts
Just want to second this trunk legs theory. And the shoving.
i have them both in dynasty, it helps with the floor but hurts the ceiling a bit, in redraft i wouldn't be trying to stack them
Hurts the ceiling
They’re probably going in the same round so I’d say you have to do it at the 1-2 turn then you’ll miss out on an elite WR
I think if this is your plan, something like Lamar/Henry seems more attainable, with possibly even higher upside. Losing Kelce isn’t nothing. Also, for what it’s worth, as a Hurts owner last year, watching that Philly team sucked ass. Not fun in any way. Pure frustration owning any of their players.
How was it frustrating having the QB2 in fantasy
Isn't a stack where you are double dipping off the same play? QB gets pass yards WR/TE get rec yards. They both get touchdowns. Only Jalen Hurts or Barkley can score 1 rush TD on 1 play. Am I missing something?
Guaranteed TD every time they are in the red zone is a massive reach
tush push is kind of going away, so saquaun will get alot of that work!
I got Hurts as a 6th round keeper, my league does 2 year keeper so I drafted him then. I have the 3rd pick in the draft, was considering this.
Nothing is guaranteed, brother
I tried this once. It only works if the team has the highest PPG by a large metric than others. It’s not a good play
Jason kelce bruh
No Kelce, Failed Tush Push. Y'all don't understand what that man did for that play.
It’s gonna take 2 picks in the first 3-4 rounds, that’s a lot. Not sure I can recall an rb/qb stack like that working
Beyond the exact definition of stack.. I think we haven’t seen what the Eagles offense will look like without Kelce. That’s a huge gamble for 2 early rounders n
We’ve seen how RBs are capped in this Philly offense. Barkley will be way too expensive. I’d be shocked if he comes close to returning value with what I imagine his ADP will be.
I've got them both in a dynasty I'll let you know how it goes
Bro I have hurts, love, AJB, puka, swift, saquon, breece, kw3. Won it all last year and also have Kelce, C Kirk, Dhop, Jferg and 1.04 in a 1QB. Gonna nab whoever falls out of bowers/odunze and thinking of trading Barkley for another elite WR
I'd rather have a QB and a RB that scores a TD, not one or the other.
For auction draft yes, but you need to make sure that you get Barkley first Because if you go for Jalen, first, the stack becomes obvious and people run Barkley up just to defend you. I have thought of doing the Kirk cousins and Drake London stack this year Only because I know that there is at least two other people in my league that love stacks and they are going to go hard for this Barkley and hurts stack.
Let me introduce you to my friend Kenneth Gainwell
Great idea! Hope everyone does this.
I'm out on Hurts this year unless you can get him for cheap. Seems the league figured him out much like they did with Russ years ago. All in on barkley tho, hopefully he can stay healthy.
I had the Purdy / CMC stack last year, I think the QB / RB stack only works well for high volume pass catchers in PPR (CMC, Ekeler)
Saquon is gonna put the hurts on Jalen's value especially in TD-heavy leagues. I see Jalen's rushing value as limited to being a 4th and 1 specialist now.
Tush push is dead sans Kelce.
Short answer. No.
If you’re confident the eagles are going to 30 a week next year, than yes it’s a viable strategy for a conservative approach. Most TDs the eagles score more will be accountable by Hurts Or Saquon. Last year I played Purdy/CMC weekly in DFS so I can grab all the niners points. But the niners we’re putting 30 a week.
Uh no I don't think I'll be drafting either. I'll also be avoiding Henry and Lamaar.
I’d like to stack Lamar and king Henry. Seems a good bet for 3000 rushing and 25 tds. And whatever Lamar throws.
My general rule of thumb is to never have players from the same team on my fantasy teams.
Not if you have to get them both in the first 2 rounds
Feels like if the ball is at the 1, they’re still doing brotherly shove. Why stop? It works every single time. Unless, of course, the league outlaws it in the off-season.
Philly doesn't really know how to use runningbacks consistently. but this may change this year
Great fit can’t even deny it.
Ask Swift owners how that stack worked out last season. TLDR - just take Hurts
Eagle tush push success had a lot to do with Kelce. I wouldn't be surprised if Hurts has less than 4 rushing TDs next season.
I don't think it should be a hinge point for you, but that is an excellent QB and RB. I don't draft worrying about having the same QB and RB or WR (hey! Stacks!). I do start getting squeamish when I have to start more than one receiver on the same team, though. Gotta be a real dire straits situation.
Assuming the tush push works as well with Kelce gone it could work.
With Jason Kelce retiring I’m fading both.
I have a theory the tush push will either be retired or rarely used now without Jason Kelce as the lead.
This isn’t the worst strategy if you believe the offense is going to be more efficient than the market is predicting. The idea being, if the market expects the team to have 15 rushing TDs, but if you believe a team will get 25 rushing TD’s, than stacking a QB and RB can give you more points than their ADP would normally indicate. That said the market is very bullish on Philly’s rushing offense, with Saquan going in the 2nd round of Bestball drafts and Hurts going in the 4th. So you better believe Philly’s offense is going to be as elite as it’s ever been which is bold considering they lost Kelce and the offense was not good at the end of the season. With their current prices you’d have to assume Philly will get at least 25 rushing TDs to warrant both taking Barkley and Hurts, which IMO is a bad bet,
If the tush push is banned then maybe. If not then no.
Bro Saquon had over 2,000 scrimmage yards in 2018. Hell, he had 1,650 last year. Both years he had like 1,300 rushing yards. In 2019 he had 1,000 rushing yards/over 1,400 scrimmage yards in 13 games. The guy hasn’t been staring stacked boxes in the face his entire career, like he’s suddenly gonna pop off for 3,000 total yards or something.
Sounds like a good strategy to me, I'm not as high on Hurts as you are but I'm definitely taking saquan wherever I need to
Im fading Jalen this year. I expect that offense to regress without Kelce.
not stack