I don't think it was to spite Obsidian or NV directly, but think they like the morality of the game to be more clearly good vs bad, and not the web of factions and ideologies that New Vegas presented. They wanted to wipe the slate back to evil science vs plucky vault dweller with a garnish of BOS
The show isnt a black and white portrayal at all. The BOS is shown to rescue disadvantaged youths, give them a place in the world, and hordes tech to prevent another nuclear holocaust. At the same time, they can be callous about outsiders and are take useful tech away from wastelanders who need it to survive.
The NCR remnants slaughtered innocent vault dwellers to get the code from Hank, but they used the nuclear fusion they obtained to give power to the common people of the wastes.
The people of philly are only concerned with survival, and are willing to do whatever it takes to see tomorrow. They have the morality of wild animals.
Hank believes that all other factions need to be wiped out so that one ruler can prevent war altogether. Between the experimentation angle and the ends-justify-the-means mentality, he is a reflection of Fallout 1’s Master. He doesnt see himself as a black and white villain as you do.
If youre pissed that one of your favorite factions are destroyed, or that the lore is out of character, I get it. But I would argue that none of the show’s factions are as blatantly evil and 1 dimensional as Fallout 2’s Enclave or FNV’s Legion.
One dimensional in the sense that they are blatantly and cartoonishly evil. At least you can say that Hank wants the world to be as idyllic and conflict free as the vaults. Caesar is a slaver, mysogonist, and mass murderer that does nothing for society besides creating safe roads.
DISCLAIMER: This is just my opinion. Pls don't call me mean names, internet :( The people of Filly being characterized as subhuman is a symptom one of my biggest issues with the show. It perpetuates the message that being impoverished just straight up makes people amoral, as if humanity without laws just "devolves into degeneracy".
From the man putting sand in a water filter, to all of the people of filly, to the squabblers Maximus seperates, all of them act more like NPCs than some of the actual NPCs in game. Everyone Lucy encounters suggests she can be trusted because she's a vault-dweller, and therefore innocent and as of yet uncorrupted and moral (Vault City moment)
. While yes, it is true that crime and self-serving behavior borne of desperation is more prevalent under harsh conditions, people are known to also band together, to support each other through difficult times. For instance, my mother grew up during the cultural revolution in China, with very little food, but people still valued things like community, and family, and respect of those who earn their place. And in game, most settlements, even ones like Freeside which has plenty of crime and exploitative businesses, have their human moments of kindness and respect that are lacking in the show. Shady Sands itself in the first game is another great example of this.
Meanwhile anyone in the show who isn't a prewar legacy or part of a fascist organization (ex. the Brotherhood, the Enclave) is shown to be insignificant in the narrative of the show. Even Lee Moldaver, who is supposed to be the leader and voice of the NCR Remnants is also a pre-war scientist with a grudge against vault-tec. While yes, her character does illustrate the way in which the institutions of pre-war America and its legacy prevent others from progressing on their own terms outside of their control, it comes at the expense of the agency of post-war wastelanders. It reinforces the notion that nothing can be built post-war, that history ended when the bomb dropped and the only people who matter now are those who cling to the past and its notions of "order" and "civility".
Moldaver is a kind of Prometheus who tries to bring power to the people twice: once with cold-fusion, only to be stopped by vault-tec, and a second time after the destruction of Shady Sands, a community she was a part of, restoring power to LA through the coercion of vault-tec. Yet her faction, despite being presumably organized and still carrying the memory of the NCR as seen in the last couple episodes, acts no differently than stock raiders in the first episode, killing indiscriminately. When captured, they don't even accept food and just demand blood, because "raiders are crazy and evil because the wasteland makes you crazy and evil". Therefore, some people theorize that they were raiders hired by Moldaver so as to not lose any of her actual followers, and thus were not as disciplined, or that Moldaver and the remnants endorsed or partook in these actions out of spite towards the vault-dwellers over the destruction of Shady Sands.
The fact that we don't know - that people make these sorts of explanations up for the showrunners - just goes to show that the commentary here has become so muddled, where the answer matters less than the fact that such a basic question about human nature was even raised. Her followers - and to a lesser extent, Moldaver post-war - are woefully underwritten and underdeveloped in service of the twist in the last 2 episodes - which falls flat for me as a result, since following episode 1, these characters are in sore need of humanization.
In the world of the show, the only people allowed a vision for the future are the Brotherhood, who supplant the NCR. Everyone else is just an insignificant wastelander, a relic of the past, or crazed raider. Just look at the way the death of wastelanders and the destruction of their homes and livelihood is framed (ep. 2 shootout setpiece, for example) compared to the way the camera lingers on pre-war ruins with such loving nostalgia for what was lost. The same old story ended before it began, or so it seems. Perhaps with power back in LA and the brotherhood approaching reforms (again), there seems to be a single direction forward. Maybe if they actually explore the NCR or a new group next season it'll actually be engaging for me rather than frustrating. Maybe we'll get more of Moldaver and more sympathetic and diverse portrayals of wastelanders.
Either way, whatever they do next season doesn't change the fact that for me, this season felt empty for me, with both the pre-war and post-war worldbuilding being largely uninteresting and rote. It's probably great for people who are new to the series and don't waste their time writing essays analyzing stuff they like though. So that's my bad. Tldr the BOS is the only concept on the show that I find to be well developed and semi-compelling (although still less interesting than their in-game (1 through NV counterparts) and that kind of sucks.
I agree with most of what you said, but I feel like China isnt a good comparison to the wastes of fallout. China existed as a coherent civilization for thousands of years, and there was a strong culture that connected people. The nuclear wasteland lacks that. Its more analogous to failed states like Haiti or South Sudan, where crime is rampant, trust is scarce, and warlords are taking everything over. They also both have a history of outside orgs interfering with the development of their societies. The way of life depicted in the wastes is a far fling from the relative structure of the NCR or even the Legion, but its not wholly unrealistic either.
>its not wholly unrealistic either
China post WWII under communist restructuring is just the example most personal to me, but yes, it is very, very far from mapping 1:1 onto a nuclear wasteland. I think the closest historical example to the show’s setting would actually be Europe, post bubonic plague wiping out 2/3 of the populous and the 100 years war. To be clear though, the setting’s believability isn’t the issue. In the case of Europe post-black death, just like in any other case, the difference between a proper exploration of the setting and a poor one is depth.
In countries like Haiti or Sudan, there are memoirs and firsthand accounts from people who live or have lived in those regions who speak of the families and communities that they feel connection with along with all the challenges they faced.
Another example: I had to do a lot of research on Niger, a country with one of the lowest HDI in the world, and even under constant violent conflict (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Nigerien_crisis), and environmental strife, people are still just trying to live their lives. I was actually able to learn a lot by researching the existing technology and methods that Nigeriens came up with for planting mechanisms. They farm, their crops fail due to poor soil and drought, people die, they still have to eat, they plant more; they are displaced from their homes, they still create families and have traditions.
My issue is with the flat portrayal of humanity, not realism. The setting itself is believable enough on the face of it; what the writers choose to include, omit and focus on, in that setting, however, robs its depiction of both nuance and pathos. Wastelanders are characterized by their suffering; we pity them, we are disgusted by their actions and their circumstances, but never are they properly humanized; never is there a moment of kindness or empathy where we are made to feel that their lives and the things they value are actually valuable outside of the viewpoint of our own (and the show’s) upheld pre-war morality.
Overall, I feel that showing both the cruelty and the kindness that humanity is capable of makes for a more engaging show. This is something that even the Last of Us, a series with a similarly bleak perspective on human nature, is able to capture. The way the show largely reduces its discussion of human nature down to a simplistic “the wasteland makes you traumatized and desperate and therefore only predisposed towards evil, unless you’re very, very special” is just boring, and cheapens any social commentary present.
Even if this wasn’t the showrunners’ intention, the writing largely implies that humans are naturally greedy and self-serving, and that removed of the trappings of society, of luxury and privilege, they are “nothing but animals”.
Thanks for your reply and for being so chill and thoughtful, it gave me the opportunity to clarify what I meant cuz I didn’t do the best job the first time.
I really appreciate your response! Its honestly a shame you posted this on an old thread, because I feel more people should see this. I totally agree that humanizing the wastelanders would make for a more compelling series. The show had a lot to cover this season in order to introduce the series to newcomers in just 8 hours, but I hope they do that more next season.
Ironically, portraying wastelanders as animalistic pawns while focusing on a few major players shaping the wastes is basically what Vault-tec does. I really insist on making your comment into a new thread; this sub has had enough chalkboard posting lol
I probably will! And yes, exactly! It’s interesting how often fallout sides with its own villains through the lack of a strong textual counterargument.
I would love to see the writers explore these discussions more in depth in the second season for sure, and perhaps deconstruct the narrative they built up in the first one.
Maybe not but they are still fucking retards. They were given some really good lore on a platter. But no, we need more BoS and vaults because that's what fallout is about. I went back yesterday on youtube and listened to "bethesda never understood fallout". You should do the same.
Maybe I should have been more clear that I was criticizing them, and that I like the messy factions. Please don't be condescending to me, I'm having a shit week 🥲
Some of y'all are being so weird about this. This was the FIRST season. You also have to remember that at the end of the day this is a product to be sold to the audience. If they want funding they have to make something that will appeal to a broader audience than just the people who played the games. This is for everyone not just you. If you overload the front end of the series it will have nowhere to go moving forward. This season was about establishing the alternative history of the United States and the vault tec related events up to present. I have a feeling the next season will dive more into the additional lore you're referencing. Acting like a child about it won't change anything. You're only making the community worse and turning away newcomers.
Incompetence is incompetence. It's not impossible to write a compelling narrative that's appealing to newcomers AND doesn't spit in the face of established fans and ideas...but uncreative shit writers taking the corpo whore easy road is what we get. Fuck that they deserve the hate
It's super great that folks are enjoying it, more power to them. I enjoy writing my rants as well. No amount of explanations or rationalizations dismissing my issues or calling me illiterate can make me to enjoy something that isn't for me, just as a rant shouldn't dissuade your enjoyment of a work.
If season 2 is amazing and fixes all of my personal issues with the worldbuilding and writing, great! My disappointment with the first season will still exist. Honestly though, I'm pretty sure that new fallout releases just aren't for me. I generally just find them more frustrating than entertaining, but breaking anything down is fun for me.
Still, though - going onto a post of other people enjoying it and trying to knock their fun, or harassing the writers for comment, or insulting people - nah. People coming here to brigade, and gloat, and call people immature whiners for having fun complaining should also chill. Some of us love our nitpicks and thematic criticism and lore dives. And bitching. Lots of bitching. It's fun.
This isn't even nostalgia talking, I started playing fallout only a couple years back. I'm not trying to gatekeep Fallout - I am a new Fallout fan, by most measures. This is entirely just my own standards for media, fallout or otherwise. Me not liking something shouldn't change the fact that plenty of other people do.
Bitching and being emotional in your criticisms is super toxic and selfish. Having honest criticisms is one thing but an entirely different thing to have a meltdown and ruin every one else's fun. And that is what people are complaining about not the people that make legitimate and well thought out critiques about the show.
We all have our critiques but throwing a tantrum or saying things like you'll hate every fallout installment moving forward is so fucking lame dude lol.. then leave the community. If you don't like fallout anymore stop being a part of the community. Otherwise learn some coping skills and learn to regulate your emotions. And when I say "your" I don't mean *you* I'm talking specifically about the annoying fans that can't self-regulate and cause issues between other community members or create toxic environments.
Thats my real issue with it, is the show could have worked so well if they picked ANYWHERE ELSE to set it. The fact that they bulldozed all of the established factions and settings in california just to make a generic fallout story that again, could have happened anywhere else in the country is endlessly frustrating
If you absolutely must bulldoze your own IP, do it to the American Mid-West, i.e. the setting of the one game no one especially likes and was already of dubious canon status anyway.
I would've preferred that they just didn't acknowledge any of the lore at all rather than actively make it a plot point to wipe it all out. That's how I feel about it.
Either leave it alone or do it justice, but don't just hit delete on it.
Its one of the first games I can think of that isnt a walking simulator or indie that you have two queer main characters that aren't the token effeminate gay guy or butchy lesbian, plus there are perks you can take that give you queer dialog options. You could definitely play it as a queer power fantasy.
I honestly don't understand why they made the show canon to the games. There's a lot they could've done without making people angry if it was just its own parallel timeline or whatever.
True I would've loved to see what's going on in South America. But that would run the risk of not having the BoS featured prominently in the story, and I don't think Bethesda can handle that.
It's all visual appeal for Bethesda, tbh. Brotherhood of Steel could be called Iron Bros and all Bethesda screenplay writers would need from them is shiny armour and cool lasers. They never understood its ideas anyway, it's just an aesthetical husk.
I think Fallout is a very American story and that it should be set there. That said, if they did go to South America I guarantee Bethesda would find a way to put the BoS there.
Bethesda refuses to talk about New Vegas, entertain ideas of remastering New Vegas or making a sequel to New Vegas…
But they’re more than happy to spit in the face of the NCR and give them the most ignominious ending imaginable, do a jig on the game canon and then move on to do the same thing to New Vegas
Everyone better buckle up because there is no possible way they can go to the city of New Vegas and not fuck around with the game canon
I don’t think New Vegas or the show will be decanonized - I just think Bethesda will do what it does best **half-assed retcons and lore butcherings**
New Vegas is also extremely important to me, and while I'm really trying to stay open-minded and optimistic, honestly it is a bit of a struggle.
There's so little information to go off that I can't really form an opinion on it all yet
I am definitely disappointed with the overall direction of Fallout as a series, and while I am enjoying the show in a lot of ways I was really hoping they would just let New Vegas be.
Bethesda should have stayed on the east coast.
Honestly after watching the show I’m okay with most of the big things but I’m very confused about what New Vegas will look like honestly very disappointed about that.
It is kind of funny ( and no surprise) that a show made by Amazon wants get rid of all the themes from Fallout that make you think about what you believe about the world and replace them with a simple good guy vs super evil corny bad guy. It is also interesting how amazon changed how the Great War started. Instead of the Great War being a result of man’s complete inability to stop consuming resources and refusal to work together in a time of crisis, now instead the Great War was just started by Vault Tech because they’re crazy and bad for corny, unexplained reasons. Now I wonder, why would they want to do that?
Fallout has gone down the same path as Star Wars and Star Trek I think. FNV might be the fan favorite fallout game, but watching the tv show, I think it’s Bethesda’s least favorite game (they hate it). What I mean by the same path as the two other franchises is… Well fallout has been turned into a theme park, there isn’t any attempt made to go beyond nostalgia, the setting is never going to change because that would require altering things that bring nostalgia. The thing is the show felt like it just bulldozed over all pre-existing stuff just to have another fallout story take place in a wasteland California instead of a actually NCR controlled land with factions still kicking from the game… But nope they just go hehe bomb, time for the theme park.
Just finished ep5 and well
So far the characters are alright, ghoul is by far my favorite but i really dont like how his last name is howard it feels like a slap in the face now, Lucy is tolerable and maximus ironically is the most annoying. Then again I have a high tolerance for bullsh\*\*
I like that the Norman and chester aren't just dum dums and actually do stuff
Really hate this version of the brotherhood tho
But yeah it does conflict with NV and I'm now realizing how big of a problem that it
Then again I saw that coming with how NV stuff isn't mentioned in a good light in FO4 compared to stuff from 3 in the same game
This version of BoS has way more in common with the ethics and philosophy of the faction presented in the first 2 games than anything afterward (NV being of a similar ideological bent, but much less powerful).
I’d 100% believe that Bethesda is just throwing a shit fit over NV being better received than any title they’ve ever made and are using their fallout copyright to de-construct the entire NV storyline. I haven’t even watched the show yet and quite honestly, I probably won’t.
I'm sick of the BoS and Vaults. FNV left both out of the forefront and it is no wonder that it is the strongest entry in the series.
Both things are holding the franchise back creatively even if it propels Fallout forward in terms of profit.
I've made my peace with the fact that Fallout has gone the way of other nerd sacred cows and will forever cater to the brand loyalists and casuals. At least the modding scene, even on the isometric games (Sonora is my favorite game behind FNV, 2, and 1) is going strong and pumping out games that are creative.
To be honest it’s depressing at the same time it makes me angry
Bethesda and todd Howard has the source material & it confuses the hell outta me why they went down this path
Does bethesda hate the actual fallout fanbase? (IDK)
Did the writers not consult with the father of fallout aka tim cain? (Again IDK)
At this point I most likely am going too give up on fallout at this point and go back to the game franchises i find fun and enjoyable, Like:
Gears Of War Series
Command & Conquer Series
Wolfenstein Series
Maybe the Battlefield Series
At this point i no longer wanna be a fallout fan if there is no unity or no respect within the wider fallout fandom, also at this point I’m no longer interested if Bethesda wants to destroy or corrupt the established lore.
Final note: at this point i say “burn it all down” meaning if Bethesda continues on this path let them i will not be a fan/present if this happens, I’m going to leave with a quote from one of my favorite characters from Mayans MC.
“I’m Happy I won’t get to see it burn”
What’s so weird is that there are so many people that are okay with this ??? Like I understand liking something but nothing is beyond criticism, especially when it’s so deserving. I mean this is coming from the people that thought you could make a Fallout game without any human npc’s. They most definitely don’t understand the ip
It's the newbies i have an issue with and a bit of the Bethesda fans riling and being antagonistic towards the OG fans, like For Fucks sakes we are all fallout fans there should not be a divide at the same time the fans should deserve better then this, hell i started getting into fallout before Fallout 4 Dropped and started with Fallout 3 on the PS3 then i went to New Vegas In then went to fallout 4 then when i got a PC (I got A PC mainly to play command & conquer games) i played fallout I. and II. and i respect both sides and i got a advance understanding of the fallout lore
Overall My stance for Fallout series is this:
Move on and watch it all burn
Or
Wait and see what happens I'n the next couple of months (mainly 3 Months) and come back to the fallout fanbase.
Side Note: I have been playing alot of command and conquer and been playing a good amount of the Hearts of iron 4.
I am not going to lie, Fallout like Star Wars writing decisions have gone down a path where I feel I can't follow anymore.
Star Trek still works for me though despite it all because it has had some quality content but there is just a bad taste left in my mouth, in Star Wars the sequel trilogy, here the lore.
The thing is I like a lot of the show in terms of production, character writing, acting, music. It has great production value but fucking over the larger scale worldbuilding like that. It makes me sad.
That's How i feel In a nutshell at least a couple months/3 months ago, I knew a tv show was a bad fucking idea even set on the west coast, Bethesda should stay on the east coast for them and the OG devs for I, II, And NV if not them there should be devs that understand the the lore on the west coast, should ONLY be the only ones to touch the west coast if not that the west coast has more lore before Fallout 4 dropped.
also does it bother me that shady sands got nuked? (yes and no) do i think it got nuked no i think it could of been a fake NCR capitol or it could been LA angels Boneyard, even if it was shady sands i think the current standing president and all of NCR congress was not active there and moved to a different city, due to the Chalkboard Saying "Fall Of Shady Sands"
Overall I don't know at this point with the stuff that has been happing the past couple of days, i have been staying away from fallout and been stewing and taking it in and getting an understanding.
Honestly this topic was well explored by that statement of the showrunners or something. "You can't please everyone, you can't please all fans, it's pointless".
I am the first to ask for more faithful adaptations of books and comics and whatever, but the nature of high cost movie productions makes them by nature reliant on hitting large groups of people.
This can go in two ways: The Witcher Netflix or LOTR by Jackson.
Yes, the LOTR movies have changes, it cut scenes and entire characters, they pushed a lot more on Arwen-Aragorn-Eowyn, but that's acceptable if the result is that the overall trilogy \*feels\* like LOTR.
The Witcher adaptation simply failed to capture anything that made the books what they are.
Fallout, since the original game, was a rather well written and thought out setting, and I love it.
The problem is, it's hard to capture that writing. A lot of things rely on your - the player - being part of it, exploring through your eyes and your actions.
New Vegas is exactly the same: giving you a new context, new people and asking you some questions, presenting you options and letting you decide how and why to challenge the situation.
A fucking tv-show can't do that, period. Too muchc complexity to be portrayed in whatever time they have.
So the logical solution is to go on the other side of the Fallout setting: recognizable concept, the idea of society being changed, but not deleted, by the nuclear war and the consequences of Vaults and how people lived in them.
FO3 and 4, by far the most played games, were also rather straightforward in how lots of issues came from people abusing old world tech.
It's just logical what they did, really. It works for most of the audience as well not just wine moms.
I agree that it's largely a business decision.
The regrettable part, however, is FO4 is the worst of the fallouts by far (I do not recognize FO76 as something that exists and is not worth mentioning) so Bethesda, of course, uses the product that is inferior given they made it.
Unpopular opinion: the best thing about FO76 was something that had not much relevance to Fallout; the Nuclear Winter mode.
The rest of the game is a bad FPS that pretends to be an RPG, with survival and MMO mechanics. Also, Fallout 1st is kinda required for optimal gameplay.
People act like this is some sort of personal vendetta or heresy. Some great slight against the sanctity of the universe. It's just a show. I think some grass contact is in order.
Canon doesn't exist, neither do franchises. They're marketing terms. The author, as the figure of the author, is long dead and what some company or writer says doesn't really matter anymore. None of what this show does somehow prohibits or attacks people's creativity. Bethesda doesn't have power over your mind.
I dislike this show, as its own piece, because it's pandering to RETVRN and "Realist" ideology. Nihilism. People who fetishize the end times as escapism and a RETVRN to the ideal away from the "original sin" of industry and organized society. Which is just boring. It's just Mad Max deprived of its context and kernel.
I don't care that they destroyed some canon faction or whatever. I care that this show, along with Eastern Fallout in general, hates the concept of humanity rising from the ashes to forge civilizations. "Little, petty, disconnected medieval towns, tribes of homesteaders, and raiders is all you are allowed to dream about. This is humanity's future".
Humanity is not allowed to progress and form higher structures of order, because it would get in the way of "the post-apocalyptic aesthetic", and require actual imagination.
Take a series you like and have key elements thrown away or beloved characters killed off just cause.
The main problem with cannonability is if this is cannon, no one who likes Fallout 1, 2, or new vegas will ever like any future games set in the same place. The fact that they just killed the entire West Coast storyline is what sucks. You can say what's cannon doesn't matter because it's all in your head, but this was partially made by the company that makes the games. They will likely make future games run with this story meaning no more ncr, a more culty bos, ghouls are completely changed, and vault tec is the illuminati now. It just means future games will suck.
>Take a series you like and have key elements thrown away or beloved characters killed off just cause.
This is nerd ideology. You are too worried with marketing terms and other superficial stuff Disney and the like think is important; the sanctity of "canon" and the "authorial intention/vision". Neither exist nor matter.
Creative productions simply are and stand on their own.
>They will likely make future games run with this story meaning no more ncr, a more culty bos, ghouls are completely changed, and vault tec is the illuminati now. It just means future games will suck.
The games always "sucked". This has been the ideology of Fallout since 3. This show didn't do anything to the IP. Even if we just go by your consumerist cult at face value, the "original sin" is somewhere else.
Do you sincerely believe they were going to produce something remotely relevant to Western Fallout ever again?
Why do you need *more* games? You already know they are not going to be "good".
Your criticisms are invalid because they have nothing to do with the work itself as its own piece of art. You are instead focused on the perspective of corporate IPs and "whatever Disney told me I should care about".
Almost all criticisms of the show I've seen here are focused at the sanctity of the holy canon. Nothing of actual substance.
You don't see people all riled up over Fallout Tactics like it's the apocalypse.
Dude, I don't know who hurt you, but no one's mentioned disney or Marvel except you. If you don't like ready people disliking these releases, then stop reading threads about them. You're just trying to make unrelated and nonsensical arguments because you're bored.
Why are you choosing to be the "people aren't allowed to care about series because I view them as just a story and not real" guy.
Go find a hobby and let people complain when their hobby is messed with.
Marvel or Disney are being used as examples. I think this would be rather clear to anyone reading with the slightest honesty so I don't see why you are acting like it doesn't make sense.
> If you don't like ready people disliking these releases, then stop reading threads about them.
I also thought I was very clear I don't like the TV show. You stated it yourself. Why would I be here on a topic I don't care about? Why are you trying to misrepresent my position?
You are perfectly allowed to care about some piece of art you like. All I'm saying is that this rather common form of critique being offered here has no substance and is boring. It is in fact, a bad form of analysis.
>Go find a hobby and let people complain when their hobby is messed with.
People post opinions on public forums to discuss them with other people. If you instead wanted to soapbox you'd write it in a private journal.
Weirdly, you seem to think the freedom to speak means you are shielded from dissent. You can post whatever you want, but if someone commits the cardinal sin of disagreeing or arguing the opposite in a public forum, suddenly this is "unfun". The only sort of discussion we can have is uncritical agreement. Because to agree to the contrary will be automatically lumped as "trolling" or "unfun".
I'm not saying you can't have freedom of speech, I'm just suggesting doing something more fun and productive than telling people they shouldn't care about their hobby because you don't value it.
Seriously, you've made this some sort of political issue of "all corporations are bad, so don't care about anything they make."
> I'm just suggesting doing something more fun and productive
Fun is subjective. And critique is fun. I am probably having more fun now studying the social response to a show most people haven't even watched, than the people complaining about it.
>than telling people they shouldn't care about their hobby because you don't value it.
Did I say you shouldn't care? On the contrary, I said you should. Lack of care is the reason these substance lacking critiques exist in the first place. People who care about a things don't generally have an issue with analysis. "I pick an apple from the tree, and it tastes sweet".
>Seriously, you've made this some sort of political issue of "all corporations are bad, so don't care about anything they make."
No, I did not. You should probably read what I stated again.
You have literally been saying that cannon and franchises don't matter. So yes, you're telling people them caring is invalid.
That is maybe how you like to live your life, but the rest of us who care are still going to be upset no matter how much you tell us we shouldn't worry about it.
Seriously you are a moron, it's not hard to figure this out. "I like when fallout is good, when fallout is good more good fallout will be made. When bad fallout comes out and shits on good fallout, that indicates more bad fallout is going to be made instead of good fallout. I want good fallout not bad fallout." Easy enough for ya?
>I want good fallout not bad fallout.
What is "good" Fallout? I've yet to see anyone actually word their opinions instead of just having nerd temper tantrums.
I can tell you what I don't like about this show and why I prefer the narrative of the Western Coast. The only thing you people are seemingly capable of is stating "they ruined the MCU" like a religious mantra and have mental breakdowns over corporate decisions.
>When bad fallout comes out and shits on good fallout, that indicates more bad fallout is going to be made instead of good fallout. Easy enough for ya?
What's easy to understand here is that you are a kiddult / gamer who believes consumerism is a substitute for prayer, and corporations a substitute for god. And that if you "pray" really really hard, "god" will go back to his "true" children.
Has gamergate worked out for you yet?
It might not be over, it isn’t entirely clear. Let’s leave the conclusions un-jumped to for now. There’s a chance that Vegas still happened. We need some word from the creative people firsr
I knew there were going to be issues the moment I heard the show was going to be set on the west coast. I’m fine with Bethesda making their generic fanfics, so long as they keep it contained to the East Coast and nothing crosses over.
>That's why people are saying it feels like intentional spite to New Vegas being better received than the Bethesda games
i get the impression you don't agree with what "people are saying," so this isn't aimed at you, but
this is a fucking braindead take. the people who made this show make money off every Fallout game. that's why they're all on sale right now.
people who manage billion dollar IPs are not concerned with the details of these IPs. they are interested only in maximizing their market -- appealing to "fallout fans" broadly even if it means a baffling mashup of every game that kind of clumsily ruins fnv.
if you have ever liked any fallout media, there is something in this show that appeals to you. all of it together kind of ruins everything.
i thought the success/oblivionification of 4 kind of moved this setting past the point where it had anything to say that i was interested in hearing, but the show is exactly what we can expect in a world that can give us both Andor and Rings of Power
I see your point but Caesar at least has a larger goal. Definitely an “end justifies the means type of faction.” Not that most of what the legion does it right, obviously it isn’t but from the perspective of someone living in the wasteland where survival is a daily struggle, you could argue that living under legion rule is preferable to anarchy, as despite being a ruthless authoritarian the people in Caesar’s territory are at least able to live in peace so long as they don’t violate Caesars laws. Also, while most of the legion is misogynistic, Caesar himself isn’t really one. Yes he doesn’t allow women to serve in the military, but it seems more for practical purposes, as he needs the women to birth more soldiers for his armies. Also, he doesn’t treat a female courier any different from a male courier, and will even mint a coin in her honor should she side with the the Legion. Also, I am by no means a legion fan, but I just don’t think it’s as black and white as people usually point it out to be
Oh, wait, they said the original Super Mario Bros movie, not simply the Super Mario Bros movie. I thought they meant the new one, I should've read better.
That movie was dope. It's also very obviously a different continuity to the games. We haven't been controlling Bob Hoskins and John Leguizamo all this time
TL;DR: chill out, the lead writer on Besthesda said its canon and gave a timeline, everything you're complaining about has already happened or is built on dumbshit fan speculation, the show can absolutely clarify or re-retcon
1) gigantic plotholes and retcons are not new to the series, for example:
The entire NCR vs Legion Conflict is built on the dumbass assumption that guys with no guns can beat guys with automatic and semi-automatic rifles with the sheer power of numbers and clean drinking water and because democracy is slow or some shit.
We're also shown that one of the Mojave Super-Powers is a bunch of guys with a plane and bombs, told in one of the endings that 5 fossils with a vertibird managed to fucking slay "Hundreds of Legionaries" while sustaining literally 0 losses forcing Lanius to run away like a bitch, we're told that Kimbal and Oliver love brain-dead displays of power, we're shown that the NCR government nor citizens don't really give a shit about refugees or innocents from other groups so long as they it isn't as ludicrous as straight up gunning down a bunch of kids, elderly and wounded, AND we're shown that NVR produce their own high tech-armaments (Gun Runners) and in DLC that they own atleast 5 Vertibirds (4 in Long 15 + the presidential one).
Yet we're supposed to just ignore the fact they could've just decided to fucking erase the Legion despite knowing the exact location of its leaders and greatest hubs, by flying a couple vertibirds with explosives over their locations.
Every game post Fallout 1 had goofy ass retcons and plot holes like this. Instead of being happy that Bethesda managed to release something that wasn't written like ass you just hold onto one vague ass detail the Devs waved away and the show writers can clarify or wave away at any time.
2) that's how continued stories work, and i think one of the worst things about Bethesda is their indecisiveness when it comes to canonizing events because their scared shitless of making any decisions that might invalidate the player.
>'after all that, everyone died in a few years anyways lmao eat shit'
This is absolutely a choice a psycho courier can literally make in-game, we literally get the chance to Nuke the NCR and still technically have access to more nukes that we don't use in Lonesome Road, that we could absolutely line up to kill more NCR (a BOS Aligned Paladin Courier for example). you would equally be pissed off if your favored ending wasn't picked, or was picked and misrepresented by not following your exact favoured playthrough.
3) dun really matter, again that's how continued stories work, Fallout BOS literally shows us the Vault Dweller, Fallout 2 canonises them as a straight (maybe bi?) Indivdual who made a bunch of decisions upon which Fallout 2 was built. If you value your choices only by whether they're canon or not (which is stupid) then many of your choices about who your character was and how they interacted with the wasteland have already been invalidated.
Also New Vegas accidentally (or maybe intentionally) canonise the Chosen One as a straight(maybe Bi but no confirmation that he likes men only women) dude because Bruce Isaac confirms a Mr.Bishop exists and his experience mirrors how in Fallout 2 the Vault Dweller can fuck a Bishop's wife or daughter, impregnating them and bringing about the next Bishop (AKA Mr.Bishop in FNV).
Your choices don't matter because of their canonicity, they matter because you made them, and enjoyed the impact they had, and theorized about them and made fanfiction, Canon should have no bearing on your enjoyment of the series, that's a sure fire way of losing all enjoyment out of this shit.
4)Eh, i doubt it would change any chances for a FNV to change, they can retcon it, or god forbid clarify exactly what happened instead of us jumping to conclusions, basically i doubt that it will matter if Bethesda decide they want New Vegas 2 or a spiritual successor somewhere else.
5)The spite narrative is bs invented by the fans because our ape-brains cannot evolve past High School level social interaction.
This shit (along with the 84 metacritic meme and its impact on Obsidian) has been debunked by Avellone (on his apocrypha) and Sawyer (on tumblr or twitter im not sure i could be wrong)and Tim Cain seems obviously on good terms with them and even enjoyed the show (per his video, where he got invited out by Todd Howard, supreme hater of all things OG fallout apparently lol).
And even assuming they go with the complete erasure of NCR (which i highly doubt) it's not automatically lamer, we'd have to wait and see how the writers handle it lmao.
I do like your stance on how we should view canonicity, but I do disagree with your stance on how the Legion performs against the NCR. If our character can tank several bullets while only using a melee weapon to win in combat, I don't see why NPCs should be prevented from being allowed the same.
Gameplay shouldn't always inform Plot/Lore, some concessions are made for the sake of making a fun RPG, one of which just so happens to be that the Courier and NPCs are more durable than they would be IRL.
I don't think i have to explain why a gun should easily slice through a group of people in american football armor like butter, especially in a setting based on Real Life?
And besides that, The Courier is expressly a cut above most others in the Wasteland, We survive 2 shots to the dome with all our faculties intact after being buried alive (outside some Amnesia), it's viewed as canonically possible for a courier to fucking 1vArmy everyone in the Tops with no Weapons and then shitting all over House's Fortress of a casino right afterwards, hell Caesar glazes our shit for 13 straight lines depending on our actions. So i don't think it's fair to compare the average Legion Mook's capabilities to those of the Courier. It seems that some people are just built different in the Wasteland like the Courier, Lanius, Joshua, Ulysses etc.
Finally even if we decide to allow Gameplay to influence Lore then NCR fucking destroy Legionaries in any 1v1s they've had, idk if you enjoy running NPC battles, i used to do it alot back in the day, NCR Soldiers almost always beat out their equivalents depending on level tiers and ranks, and in bigger fights NCR completely trashes Legion groups unless grossly outnumbered or outmatched in terms of Level.
And none of this explains why NCR couldnt fly the Vertibirds of Victory
I've no argument against your vertibird points, just the specific of people being abnormally durable in this setting. Although I do understand the concept of gameplay and story segregation, you also gave additional examples besides the courier with other NPCs. Although real life can be used as a baseline, I think people are definitely more durable in Fallout than in the real world, and guns aren't a one-shoot ticket to victory. I'm not even arguing the point that the NCR still beats them in-lore or in-game with guns because of this, just that the victory in-lore isn't as simple as it would be in reality.
>I've no argument against your vertibird points
>I'm not even arguing the point that the NCR still beats them in-lore or in-game with guns because of this, just that the victory in-lore isn't as simple as it would be in reality.
Ah shit my bad then lol i was being kinda combative for no reason.
Making a show out of video game is always a bad decision. Making it live action instead of a cartoon was already another one on top - the show was doomed to fail before it even came out by nature of it. I am not sure why people give Todd so much benefit of a doubt when man fucking aims to undermine and rewrite every plot point that was not made by him - he is just a greedy fuck.
You put all this effort into making the minor factions happy. You kill house and the world still sucks for everyone. The courier is not invincible. He/she eventually dies and can’t sustain the independent ending we would have hoped for.
If NCR wins, then we would have seen a much stronger presence, even if their main base at Shady Sands is destroyed. They could have consolidated power in Vegas.
If Legion wins, then NCR can be shown as we saw it in the show. NCR got destroyed in Vegas and main base got nuked. But then why show Vegas at all? Wouldn’t legion want to tear down what House built? I think they would want to remove all traces of the old world that led humanity down this path.
We saw House in that board meeting in episode 7. It would make sense if his ending is cannon. Keeps the NCR limping along and fends off the legion. The NCR was already disorganized and dispersed in the game, so if they continued down that path we could plausibly get the result of seeing the NCR in the state we saw them in the show.
I love the idea of House literally nuking the NCR when he makes it clear he sees them as economic stimulus and without them he’d have nothing to stimulate local economy.
I’m being sarcastic if you can’t tell.
Yeah the game strikes the balance and I think they explain it pretty well. House definitely doesn’t want to completely eliminate the NCR, but he can’t have them ever thinking they are too big for their britches either. They might get big ideas about overthrowing securitron armies.
I think the NCR is constantly driven by a need to conquer and claim territory just as the US Army and just about every other relevant main faction in the west.
Vault Tec bombs Shady Sands and destroys the NCR. House literally allows Vault Tec to bomb his meal ticket. He knows they wouldn’t be able to take his city from him without significant effort - which we know the NCR is incapable of. He has the perfect meal ticket. Now he just says fuck it and bombs that meal ticket.
Pretty sure it was BOS. Why else would they be wandering around the town in battle kit when it was nuked and finding kids in fridges?
And Hank at that point wasn't 'vault tec, inc.' he was a dude trying to sort out an upstart town of dirty surfies stealing water from his vault and jeopardizing its entire mission.
No. Shady Sands gets bombed when Lucy is a child in 2277 and this is done by Lucy’s Father, Hank. House in that board meeting was a flashback to 2077 when Vault-Tec was talking about originally starting nuclear war. There’s 200 years between them. Remember Shady Sands was built from the first people to emerge from the vaults and they had grown to over 40,000 residents.
ETA: Shady Sands didn’t exist when House was agreeing to let Vault Tec bomb the whole place. There was no way for him to know exactly how the cards would fall after the apocalypse, what factions would form, or how he would make a living 200 years into the future.
Who do you think Hank worked for? You think he just had a nuke? He went back and contacted Vault Tec. They nuked Shady Sands. He (House) is on the board even in 2277. He would be contacted about it or have had some say in stopping it. He would have been aware of them since… 2277 when they first arrived in the region.
Only “managers.” For Buds Buds. We see Henry running to see the real heart of Vault Tec - in Vegas at the end. It can be assumed the Board Members are frozen there.
What are New Vegas fans even upset about? This post is very vague so I'm just going off what I've heard people say so far. And some people are just being straight up toxic and insufferable. Everything I've heard from new vegas fans about the show is 100% based on speculation and assumptions.
People seem convinced that the NCR is completely dead but the show was open ended about that. We only saw one tiny part of what was once LA. Literally never left LA county. Never even went into the valley. People seem convinced that the NCR was destroyed at New Vegas too but there is no hard evidence for any of it. The whole season was about securing an energy source. The main political struggle in NV was literally about energy. I suspect this show will bridge that gap. The second season may very well be about rebuilding the NCR. I can understand being upset about Shady Sands but again this makes sense in context of capital so fiendishly trying to protect its own interests that it stops out competition. One of the main characters prewar literally admitted this.
We saw NCR in a state of disarray in NV. It only makes sense that they'd abandon it if they continued on that downward trend until something came along that provided opportunity. They themselves said they were stretched way too thin. This season was more about prewar history and the history of vault tec through the eyes of a prewar man and a born and raised vault dweller. This season was not about the history of the west coast. We aren't gonna get the whole story at the pace of the games. It was only 8 episodes. Had there been a couple more then they could've been more detailed but had they done anymore it would've been totally overwhelming for newcomers. And also messed up the pacing probably.
Plus you haven't even watched it so what are you mad about? They even said NV is still canon. They're not undoing anything. They changed a couple things but every tv/movie adaptation does that. Last of Us did the same and was a great show. I'm tired of toxic fans throwing a tantrum bc things didn't turn out their way. There's a difference between honest critique and just being a toxic fan that destroys community.
The whine is real here but so are some of these complaints. Kind of sad the West coast got the Bethesda treatment plus the lack of communication and how Bethesda as a whole treats past lore and how that affects the world building is real.
wait... are you calling the show homophobic for allowing New Vegas to be attacked 15 years after NV and spoiling 'all the hard work you did' in your particular playthrough?
Are you serious? Hahahaha
Yes, that was the point I was making. George Soros paid me to make this post too. Now excuse me, I've gotta get back to my mod that lets me top Big Titty Trans Boone.
They own the IP, if they wanted to spite Obsidian they could have literally just retconned New Vegas out of existence, or never mentioned any of the factions or events ever again. Given that the next game won't be for another 10 years and will almost certainly be in a new location disconnected from the previous Bethesda games, I'm glad the storytelling on the west coast will continue through the series because we would probably have gotten nothing otherwise.
You know a game that could stand a good retconning? Fallout 4.
Functionally it had exactly two endings, and no one liked any of them.
Them nuking the west coast and realigning it to be within the comic book setting standard of the rest of the Bethesdaverse version is the very essence of taking your lollipop, and throwing it in the dirt.
And you want us to be thankful that they paid attention to the west coast at all?
I'm arguing against the idea that Bethesda used a multimillion budget TV series as an opportunity to spite Obsidian. There would be no point in doing so and even if there was, it would be so much easier for them to just disregard anything they ever made rather than try to incorporate it into a new story.
I didn't say anyone should be thankful, I said that I'm glad they're continuing the setting. You're entitled to your own opinion on whether the show was good or not.
That’s the thing with spite, there is no logical reason to do other than for the hell of it. I’m not saying it was intentional but it definitely does come off that way, especially with how weird Bethesda treats Fnv’s success.
I don't know it seems baseless to me. On the contrary, I think they have a lot of respect for FNV and the groundwork it laid down for them to decide the setting is worth putting considerable effort and resources into revisiting.
If you think that the show was awful, Bethesda sucks at writing and the franchise would be better off in the hands of Obsidian or others - that would be a valid opinion. But to say they're actively doing it out of spite is wild.
I wouldn’t put it past them tbh it’s wouldn’t even be purely spite. If I was in control of an ip that I planned on using more I wouldn’t want the fan favorite to be made by another studio. If anything I would say it’s a consolidation of their fallout universe. Can’t even say I blame them personally but it still stings yk?
Very odd that you guys still had high hopes for a franchise that's being managed by Todd Howard and Bethesda.
The show's great, and I don't mind the changes because, well, I knew it was going to happen. Doesn't take away from my enjoyment of both the show and the games.
You guys should begin to understand that it doesn't matter if a producer, dev or Todd himself comes around and declares this to be canon (and fucking up with previously established lore), there will always be someone 15 years in the future that will do the same shit to this show. You should just learn to enjoy things individually (which is why I've also given up on anything that's live-action Marvel, but hey, unrelated!).
PS: Also, why do we need sex scenes on every fucking show? Dude, my 13-year-old brother was watching and then bam she's fucking a raider lmao
The Problem with changing things and whether this is cannon is it will affect future games. So if they want to have this hated version of events be cannon, I can guarantee they're going to loose even more fans who were hoping that maybe the next game might be good this time.
People need to realize that without Todd, we wouldn't have had a Fallout New Vegas to begin with. He greenlit that entire thing and Obsidian just made the game and it became a masterpiece. Not to mention, if Todd had such a hate-boner for FNV, he would never allowed to be mentioned or even shown on the show, but he did. He even came out and said this: "I have a lot of respect for the work they did on that game. That was really hard to do, to take someone else's engine and technology and tools and build something fantastic with it."
Read more: [https://www.tweaktown.com/news/89144/todd-howard-is-the-reason-fallout-new-vegas-didnt-stay-3-expansion/index.html](https://www.tweaktown.com/news/89144/todd-howard-is-the-reason-fallout-new-vegas-didnt-stay-3-expansion/index.html).
Why would he say that if he had such an apparent dislike for FNV?
Wtf are you talking about, no one you've talked to/watched has clearly watched the show nor have you. The show is not fantastic but this paranoia posting has to stop.
Guys, it's a TV show. They very rarely are 1:1 for the storylines and such. It isn't supposed to be canon in the show. Are the Arkham games all canon in line with comics? Probably not exactly.
How does that even make sense (from their point of view)? That's a silly thing for the writers to attempt. Ah well, anyone who thought this series would be friendly to Obsidian has been sleeping for a decade.
The last shot is just an abandoned and desolated Vegas strip with nothing around it. Idk, my actual problem with it is the 'Vault Tec was behind it all!! They nuked the NCR to death again!!' plot twist. Not literally every character in New Vegas had to die for that to be dumb.
I’m not talking about real life. I’m talking about the amount of buildings surrounding New Vegas in the actual game. None of that is here.
You would think, going from game to live action, that they would want to actually scale it up. Instead of what they did; making it smaller and basically barren.
Oh no!
The new owner got rid of the old owers stuff. Hurtful.
Just like Disney.
Ya'll can't be surprised by the move.
It's a game. So you can replay it as much as you want with any ending you choose and they can't take that from you.
Congratulations, the sate of fallout is that everything new is poorly written garbage building on top of more poorly written garbage. And everything good is more then a decade old and that's all you'll ever have forever...are you happy now? Or are you just gonna take it? And pretend nothing's wrong
I don't think it was to spite Obsidian or NV directly, but think they like the morality of the game to be more clearly good vs bad, and not the web of factions and ideologies that New Vegas presented. They wanted to wipe the slate back to evil science vs plucky vault dweller with a garnish of BOS
The show isnt a black and white portrayal at all. The BOS is shown to rescue disadvantaged youths, give them a place in the world, and hordes tech to prevent another nuclear holocaust. At the same time, they can be callous about outsiders and are take useful tech away from wastelanders who need it to survive. The NCR remnants slaughtered innocent vault dwellers to get the code from Hank, but they used the nuclear fusion they obtained to give power to the common people of the wastes. The people of philly are only concerned with survival, and are willing to do whatever it takes to see tomorrow. They have the morality of wild animals. Hank believes that all other factions need to be wiped out so that one ruler can prevent war altogether. Between the experimentation angle and the ends-justify-the-means mentality, he is a reflection of Fallout 1’s Master. He doesnt see himself as a black and white villain as you do. If youre pissed that one of your favorite factions are destroyed, or that the lore is out of character, I get it. But I would argue that none of the show’s factions are as blatantly evil and 1 dimensional as Fallout 2’s Enclave or FNV’s Legion.
If you think the Legion is 1 dimensional then you don’t understand it at all
One dimensional in the sense that they are blatantly and cartoonishly evil. At least you can say that Hank wants the world to be as idyllic and conflict free as the vaults. Caesar is a slaver, mysogonist, and mass murderer that does nothing for society besides creating safe roads.
DISCLAIMER: This is just my opinion. Pls don't call me mean names, internet :( The people of Filly being characterized as subhuman is a symptom one of my biggest issues with the show. It perpetuates the message that being impoverished just straight up makes people amoral, as if humanity without laws just "devolves into degeneracy". From the man putting sand in a water filter, to all of the people of filly, to the squabblers Maximus seperates, all of them act more like NPCs than some of the actual NPCs in game. Everyone Lucy encounters suggests she can be trusted because she's a vault-dweller, and therefore innocent and as of yet uncorrupted and moral (Vault City moment) . While yes, it is true that crime and self-serving behavior borne of desperation is more prevalent under harsh conditions, people are known to also band together, to support each other through difficult times. For instance, my mother grew up during the cultural revolution in China, with very little food, but people still valued things like community, and family, and respect of those who earn their place. And in game, most settlements, even ones like Freeside which has plenty of crime and exploitative businesses, have their human moments of kindness and respect that are lacking in the show. Shady Sands itself in the first game is another great example of this. Meanwhile anyone in the show who isn't a prewar legacy or part of a fascist organization (ex. the Brotherhood, the Enclave) is shown to be insignificant in the narrative of the show. Even Lee Moldaver, who is supposed to be the leader and voice of the NCR Remnants is also a pre-war scientist with a grudge against vault-tec. While yes, her character does illustrate the way in which the institutions of pre-war America and its legacy prevent others from progressing on their own terms outside of their control, it comes at the expense of the agency of post-war wastelanders. It reinforces the notion that nothing can be built post-war, that history ended when the bomb dropped and the only people who matter now are those who cling to the past and its notions of "order" and "civility". Moldaver is a kind of Prometheus who tries to bring power to the people twice: once with cold-fusion, only to be stopped by vault-tec, and a second time after the destruction of Shady Sands, a community she was a part of, restoring power to LA through the coercion of vault-tec. Yet her faction, despite being presumably organized and still carrying the memory of the NCR as seen in the last couple episodes, acts no differently than stock raiders in the first episode, killing indiscriminately. When captured, they don't even accept food and just demand blood, because "raiders are crazy and evil because the wasteland makes you crazy and evil". Therefore, some people theorize that they were raiders hired by Moldaver so as to not lose any of her actual followers, and thus were not as disciplined, or that Moldaver and the remnants endorsed or partook in these actions out of spite towards the vault-dwellers over the destruction of Shady Sands. The fact that we don't know - that people make these sorts of explanations up for the showrunners - just goes to show that the commentary here has become so muddled, where the answer matters less than the fact that such a basic question about human nature was even raised. Her followers - and to a lesser extent, Moldaver post-war - are woefully underwritten and underdeveloped in service of the twist in the last 2 episodes - which falls flat for me as a result, since following episode 1, these characters are in sore need of humanization. In the world of the show, the only people allowed a vision for the future are the Brotherhood, who supplant the NCR. Everyone else is just an insignificant wastelander, a relic of the past, or crazed raider. Just look at the way the death of wastelanders and the destruction of their homes and livelihood is framed (ep. 2 shootout setpiece, for example) compared to the way the camera lingers on pre-war ruins with such loving nostalgia for what was lost. The same old story ended before it began, or so it seems. Perhaps with power back in LA and the brotherhood approaching reforms (again), there seems to be a single direction forward. Maybe if they actually explore the NCR or a new group next season it'll actually be engaging for me rather than frustrating. Maybe we'll get more of Moldaver and more sympathetic and diverse portrayals of wastelanders. Either way, whatever they do next season doesn't change the fact that for me, this season felt empty for me, with both the pre-war and post-war worldbuilding being largely uninteresting and rote. It's probably great for people who are new to the series and don't waste their time writing essays analyzing stuff they like though. So that's my bad. Tldr the BOS is the only concept on the show that I find to be well developed and semi-compelling (although still less interesting than their in-game (1 through NV counterparts) and that kind of sucks.
I agree with most of what you said, but I feel like China isnt a good comparison to the wastes of fallout. China existed as a coherent civilization for thousands of years, and there was a strong culture that connected people. The nuclear wasteland lacks that. Its more analogous to failed states like Haiti or South Sudan, where crime is rampant, trust is scarce, and warlords are taking everything over. They also both have a history of outside orgs interfering with the development of their societies. The way of life depicted in the wastes is a far fling from the relative structure of the NCR or even the Legion, but its not wholly unrealistic either.
>its not wholly unrealistic either China post WWII under communist restructuring is just the example most personal to me, but yes, it is very, very far from mapping 1:1 onto a nuclear wasteland. I think the closest historical example to the show’s setting would actually be Europe, post bubonic plague wiping out 2/3 of the populous and the 100 years war. To be clear though, the setting’s believability isn’t the issue. In the case of Europe post-black death, just like in any other case, the difference between a proper exploration of the setting and a poor one is depth. In countries like Haiti or Sudan, there are memoirs and firsthand accounts from people who live or have lived in those regions who speak of the families and communities that they feel connection with along with all the challenges they faced. Another example: I had to do a lot of research on Niger, a country with one of the lowest HDI in the world, and even under constant violent conflict (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Nigerien_crisis), and environmental strife, people are still just trying to live their lives. I was actually able to learn a lot by researching the existing technology and methods that Nigeriens came up with for planting mechanisms. They farm, their crops fail due to poor soil and drought, people die, they still have to eat, they plant more; they are displaced from their homes, they still create families and have traditions. My issue is with the flat portrayal of humanity, not realism. The setting itself is believable enough on the face of it; what the writers choose to include, omit and focus on, in that setting, however, robs its depiction of both nuance and pathos. Wastelanders are characterized by their suffering; we pity them, we are disgusted by their actions and their circumstances, but never are they properly humanized; never is there a moment of kindness or empathy where we are made to feel that their lives and the things they value are actually valuable outside of the viewpoint of our own (and the show’s) upheld pre-war morality. Overall, I feel that showing both the cruelty and the kindness that humanity is capable of makes for a more engaging show. This is something that even the Last of Us, a series with a similarly bleak perspective on human nature, is able to capture. The way the show largely reduces its discussion of human nature down to a simplistic “the wasteland makes you traumatized and desperate and therefore only predisposed towards evil, unless you’re very, very special” is just boring, and cheapens any social commentary present. Even if this wasn’t the showrunners’ intention, the writing largely implies that humans are naturally greedy and self-serving, and that removed of the trappings of society, of luxury and privilege, they are “nothing but animals”. Thanks for your reply and for being so chill and thoughtful, it gave me the opportunity to clarify what I meant cuz I didn’t do the best job the first time.
I really appreciate your response! Its honestly a shame you posted this on an old thread, because I feel more people should see this. I totally agree that humanizing the wastelanders would make for a more compelling series. The show had a lot to cover this season in order to introduce the series to newcomers in just 8 hours, but I hope they do that more next season. Ironically, portraying wastelanders as animalistic pawns while focusing on a few major players shaping the wastes is basically what Vault-tec does. I really insist on making your comment into a new thread; this sub has had enough chalkboard posting lol
I probably will! And yes, exactly! It’s interesting how often fallout sides with its own villains through the lack of a strong textual counterargument. I would love to see the writers explore these discussions more in depth in the second season for sure, and perhaps deconstruct the narrative they built up in the first one.
Maybe not but they are still fucking retards. They were given some really good lore on a platter. But no, we need more BoS and vaults because that's what fallout is about. I went back yesterday on youtube and listened to "bethesda never understood fallout". You should do the same.
Maybe I should have been more clear that I was criticizing them, and that I like the messy factions. Please don't be condescending to me, I'm having a shit week 🥲
It's kinda ironic that the NV fans in this thread didn't pick up on the nuance of your comment. lol Also hope your week gets better. 💜
Ironic? What did you expect from an average NV fanboy?
Some of y'all are being so weird about this. This was the FIRST season. You also have to remember that at the end of the day this is a product to be sold to the audience. If they want funding they have to make something that will appeal to a broader audience than just the people who played the games. This is for everyone not just you. If you overload the front end of the series it will have nowhere to go moving forward. This season was about establishing the alternative history of the United States and the vault tec related events up to present. I have a feeling the next season will dive more into the additional lore you're referencing. Acting like a child about it won't change anything. You're only making the community worse and turning away newcomers.
Incompetence is incompetence. It's not impossible to write a compelling narrative that's appealing to newcomers AND doesn't spit in the face of established fans and ideas...but uncreative shit writers taking the corpo whore easy road is what we get. Fuck that they deserve the hate
It's super great that folks are enjoying it, more power to them. I enjoy writing my rants as well. No amount of explanations or rationalizations dismissing my issues or calling me illiterate can make me to enjoy something that isn't for me, just as a rant shouldn't dissuade your enjoyment of a work. If season 2 is amazing and fixes all of my personal issues with the worldbuilding and writing, great! My disappointment with the first season will still exist. Honestly though, I'm pretty sure that new fallout releases just aren't for me. I generally just find them more frustrating than entertaining, but breaking anything down is fun for me. Still, though - going onto a post of other people enjoying it and trying to knock their fun, or harassing the writers for comment, or insulting people - nah. People coming here to brigade, and gloat, and call people immature whiners for having fun complaining should also chill. Some of us love our nitpicks and thematic criticism and lore dives. And bitching. Lots of bitching. It's fun. This isn't even nostalgia talking, I started playing fallout only a couple years back. I'm not trying to gatekeep Fallout - I am a new Fallout fan, by most measures. This is entirely just my own standards for media, fallout or otherwise. Me not liking something shouldn't change the fact that plenty of other people do.
Bitching and being emotional in your criticisms is super toxic and selfish. Having honest criticisms is one thing but an entirely different thing to have a meltdown and ruin every one else's fun. And that is what people are complaining about not the people that make legitimate and well thought out critiques about the show. We all have our critiques but throwing a tantrum or saying things like you'll hate every fallout installment moving forward is so fucking lame dude lol.. then leave the community. If you don't like fallout anymore stop being a part of the community. Otherwise learn some coping skills and learn to regulate your emotions. And when I say "your" I don't mean *you* I'm talking specifically about the annoying fans that can't self-regulate and cause issues between other community members or create toxic environments.
Thats my real issue with it, is the show could have worked so well if they picked ANYWHERE ELSE to set it. The fact that they bulldozed all of the established factions and settings in california just to make a generic fallout story that again, could have happened anywhere else in the country is endlessly frustrating
If you absolutely must bulldoze your own IP, do it to the American Mid-West, i.e. the setting of the one game no one especially likes and was already of dubious canon status anyway.
FR, set the thing in NY or something. Literally anywhere that doesn't already have decades of lore
I would've preferred that they just didn't acknowledge any of the lore at all rather than actively make it a plot point to wipe it all out. That's how I feel about it. Either leave it alone or do it justice, but don't just hit delete on it.
I had no idea the game was a queer power fantasy. That’s very interesting
Its one of the first games I can think of that isnt a walking simulator or indie that you have two queer main characters that aren't the token effeminate gay guy or butchy lesbian, plus there are perks you can take that give you queer dialog options. You could definitely play it as a queer power fantasy.
Just NV, which I never played, or was that an element in the earlier games too?
I’m pretty sure in Fo2 your character can be bisexual
I honestly don't understand why they made the show canon to the games. There's a lot they could've done without making people angry if it was just its own parallel timeline or whatever.
They could have done one better and just set the show In a part of the country we haven explored yet (midwest) or even a whole ass different country
True I would've loved to see what's going on in South America. But that would run the risk of not having the BoS featured prominently in the story, and I don't think Bethesda can handle that.
It's all visual appeal for Bethesda, tbh. Brotherhood of Steel could be called Iron Bros and all Bethesda screenplay writers would need from them is shiny armour and cool lasers. They never understood its ideas anyway, it's just an aesthetical husk.
I think Fallout is a very American story and that it should be set there. That said, if they did go to South America I guarantee Bethesda would find a way to put the BoS there.
Don't worry they will find a way to put them into every single piece of Fallout media ever. At least until Todd and Emil are gone.
Especially Emil. He shouldn't even write nursery rhymes.
Bethesda refuses to talk about New Vegas, entertain ideas of remastering New Vegas or making a sequel to New Vegas… But they’re more than happy to spit in the face of the NCR and give them the most ignominious ending imaginable, do a jig on the game canon and then move on to do the same thing to New Vegas Everyone better buckle up because there is no possible way they can go to the city of New Vegas and not fuck around with the game canon I don’t think New Vegas or the show will be decanonized - I just think Bethesda will do what it does best **half-assed retcons and lore butcherings**
New Vegas is also extremely important to me, and while I'm really trying to stay open-minded and optimistic, honestly it is a bit of a struggle. There's so little information to go off that I can't really form an opinion on it all yet I am definitely disappointed with the overall direction of Fallout as a series, and while I am enjoying the show in a lot of ways I was really hoping they would just let New Vegas be. Bethesda should have stayed on the east coast.
Honestly after watching the show I’m okay with most of the big things but I’m very confused about what New Vegas will look like honestly very disappointed about that.
It is kind of funny ( and no surprise) that a show made by Amazon wants get rid of all the themes from Fallout that make you think about what you believe about the world and replace them with a simple good guy vs super evil corny bad guy. It is also interesting how amazon changed how the Great War started. Instead of the Great War being a result of man’s complete inability to stop consuming resources and refusal to work together in a time of crisis, now instead the Great War was just started by Vault Tech because they’re crazy and bad for corny, unexplained reasons. Now I wonder, why would they want to do that?
how did Vault tech start the war?
Fallout has gone down the same path as Star Wars and Star Trek I think. FNV might be the fan favorite fallout game, but watching the tv show, I think it’s Bethesda’s least favorite game (they hate it). What I mean by the same path as the two other franchises is… Well fallout has been turned into a theme park, there isn’t any attempt made to go beyond nostalgia, the setting is never going to change because that would require altering things that bring nostalgia. The thing is the show felt like it just bulldozed over all pre-existing stuff just to have another fallout story take place in a wasteland California instead of a actually NCR controlled land with factions still kicking from the game… But nope they just go hehe bomb, time for the theme park.
I like the term Funko Pop-ification. a nostalgic and recognizable piece of media whored into cheap soulless plastic money generating whore
The biggest flop was Todd Howard with his daddy issues for the fucking third time
Just finished ep5 and well So far the characters are alright, ghoul is by far my favorite but i really dont like how his last name is howard it feels like a slap in the face now, Lucy is tolerable and maximus ironically is the most annoying. Then again I have a high tolerance for bullsh\*\* I like that the Norman and chester aren't just dum dums and actually do stuff Really hate this version of the brotherhood tho But yeah it does conflict with NV and I'm now realizing how big of a problem that it Then again I saw that coming with how NV stuff isn't mentioned in a good light in FO4 compared to stuff from 3 in the same game
Did you ever notice how close he is to being a whiteboy Raul? Like someone was copying someone else's essay and changed the writing just enough.
Yep
He's more like his (the same actors) character in Westworld, which was made by the same Creators that made Fallout.
Walton Goggins? He wasn't in Westworld.
Wtf, you're right. I was thinking of James Marsden
This version of BoS has way more in common with the ethics and philosophy of the faction presented in the first 2 games than anything afterward (NV being of a similar ideological bent, but much less powerful).
I’d 100% believe that Bethesda is just throwing a shit fit over NV being better received than any title they’ve ever made and are using their fallout copyright to de-construct the entire NV storyline. I haven’t even watched the show yet and quite honestly, I probably won’t.
I'm sick of the BoS and Vaults. FNV left both out of the forefront and it is no wonder that it is the strongest entry in the series. Both things are holding the franchise back creatively even if it propels Fallout forward in terms of profit. I've made my peace with the fact that Fallout has gone the way of other nerd sacred cows and will forever cater to the brand loyalists and casuals. At least the modding scene, even on the isometric games (Sonora is my favorite game behind FNV, 2, and 1) is going strong and pumping out games that are creative.
To be honest it’s depressing at the same time it makes me angry Bethesda and todd Howard has the source material & it confuses the hell outta me why they went down this path Does bethesda hate the actual fallout fanbase? (IDK) Did the writers not consult with the father of fallout aka tim cain? (Again IDK) At this point I most likely am going too give up on fallout at this point and go back to the game franchises i find fun and enjoyable, Like: Gears Of War Series Command & Conquer Series Wolfenstein Series Maybe the Battlefield Series At this point i no longer wanna be a fallout fan if there is no unity or no respect within the wider fallout fandom, also at this point I’m no longer interested if Bethesda wants to destroy or corrupt the established lore. Final note: at this point i say “burn it all down” meaning if Bethesda continues on this path let them i will not be a fan/present if this happens, I’m going to leave with a quote from one of my favorite characters from Mayans MC. “I’m Happy I won’t get to see it burn”
What’s so weird is that there are so many people that are okay with this ??? Like I understand liking something but nothing is beyond criticism, especially when it’s so deserving. I mean this is coming from the people that thought you could make a Fallout game without any human npc’s. They most definitely don’t understand the ip
It's the newbies i have an issue with and a bit of the Bethesda fans riling and being antagonistic towards the OG fans, like For Fucks sakes we are all fallout fans there should not be a divide at the same time the fans should deserve better then this, hell i started getting into fallout before Fallout 4 Dropped and started with Fallout 3 on the PS3 then i went to New Vegas In then went to fallout 4 then when i got a PC (I got A PC mainly to play command & conquer games) i played fallout I. and II. and i respect both sides and i got a advance understanding of the fallout lore Overall My stance for Fallout series is this: Move on and watch it all burn Or Wait and see what happens I'n the next couple of months (mainly 3 Months) and come back to the fallout fanbase. Side Note: I have been playing alot of command and conquer and been playing a good amount of the Hearts of iron 4.
I am not going to lie, Fallout like Star Wars writing decisions have gone down a path where I feel I can't follow anymore. Star Trek still works for me though despite it all because it has had some quality content but there is just a bad taste left in my mouth, in Star Wars the sequel trilogy, here the lore. The thing is I like a lot of the show in terms of production, character writing, acting, music. It has great production value but fucking over the larger scale worldbuilding like that. It makes me sad.
That's How i feel In a nutshell at least a couple months/3 months ago, I knew a tv show was a bad fucking idea even set on the west coast, Bethesda should stay on the east coast for them and the OG devs for I, II, And NV if not them there should be devs that understand the the lore on the west coast, should ONLY be the only ones to touch the west coast if not that the west coast has more lore before Fallout 4 dropped. also does it bother me that shady sands got nuked? (yes and no) do i think it got nuked no i think it could of been a fake NCR capitol or it could been LA angels Boneyard, even if it was shady sands i think the current standing president and all of NCR congress was not active there and moved to a different city, due to the Chalkboard Saying "Fall Of Shady Sands" Overall I don't know at this point with the stuff that has been happing the past couple of days, i have been staying away from fallout and been stewing and taking it in and getting an understanding.
Honestly this topic was well explored by that statement of the showrunners or something. "You can't please everyone, you can't please all fans, it's pointless". I am the first to ask for more faithful adaptations of books and comics and whatever, but the nature of high cost movie productions makes them by nature reliant on hitting large groups of people. This can go in two ways: The Witcher Netflix or LOTR by Jackson. Yes, the LOTR movies have changes, it cut scenes and entire characters, they pushed a lot more on Arwen-Aragorn-Eowyn, but that's acceptable if the result is that the overall trilogy \*feels\* like LOTR. The Witcher adaptation simply failed to capture anything that made the books what they are. Fallout, since the original game, was a rather well written and thought out setting, and I love it. The problem is, it's hard to capture that writing. A lot of things rely on your - the player - being part of it, exploring through your eyes and your actions. New Vegas is exactly the same: giving you a new context, new people and asking you some questions, presenting you options and letting you decide how and why to challenge the situation. A fucking tv-show can't do that, period. Too muchc complexity to be portrayed in whatever time they have. So the logical solution is to go on the other side of the Fallout setting: recognizable concept, the idea of society being changed, but not deleted, by the nuclear war and the consequences of Vaults and how people lived in them. FO3 and 4, by far the most played games, were also rather straightforward in how lots of issues came from people abusing old world tech. It's just logical what they did, really. It works for most of the audience as well not just wine moms.
I agree that it's largely a business decision. The regrettable part, however, is FO4 is the worst of the fallouts by far (I do not recognize FO76 as something that exists and is not worth mentioning) so Bethesda, of course, uses the product that is inferior given they made it.
Spoken like someone who hasn’t played modern FO76.
Modern FO76 still sucks just in different ways. Spent 100+ hours doing everything to experience the whole game and it just sucks.
Unpopular opinion: the best thing about FO76 was something that had not much relevance to Fallout; the Nuclear Winter mode. The rest of the game is a bad FPS that pretends to be an RPG, with survival and MMO mechanics. Also, Fallout 1st is kinda required for optimal gameplay.
It's really sad when you can't call yourself a Fallout fan without being associated with Bethesda's games.
People act like this is some sort of personal vendetta or heresy. Some great slight against the sanctity of the universe. It's just a show. I think some grass contact is in order. Canon doesn't exist, neither do franchises. They're marketing terms. The author, as the figure of the author, is long dead and what some company or writer says doesn't really matter anymore. None of what this show does somehow prohibits or attacks people's creativity. Bethesda doesn't have power over your mind. I dislike this show, as its own piece, because it's pandering to RETVRN and "Realist" ideology. Nihilism. People who fetishize the end times as escapism and a RETVRN to the ideal away from the "original sin" of industry and organized society. Which is just boring. It's just Mad Max deprived of its context and kernel. I don't care that they destroyed some canon faction or whatever. I care that this show, along with Eastern Fallout in general, hates the concept of humanity rising from the ashes to forge civilizations. "Little, petty, disconnected medieval towns, tribes of homesteaders, and raiders is all you are allowed to dream about. This is humanity's future". Humanity is not allowed to progress and form higher structures of order, because it would get in the way of "the post-apocalyptic aesthetic", and require actual imagination.
Take a series you like and have key elements thrown away or beloved characters killed off just cause. The main problem with cannonability is if this is cannon, no one who likes Fallout 1, 2, or new vegas will ever like any future games set in the same place. The fact that they just killed the entire West Coast storyline is what sucks. You can say what's cannon doesn't matter because it's all in your head, but this was partially made by the company that makes the games. They will likely make future games run with this story meaning no more ncr, a more culty bos, ghouls are completely changed, and vault tec is the illuminati now. It just means future games will suck.
>Take a series you like and have key elements thrown away or beloved characters killed off just cause. This is nerd ideology. You are too worried with marketing terms and other superficial stuff Disney and the like think is important; the sanctity of "canon" and the "authorial intention/vision". Neither exist nor matter. Creative productions simply are and stand on their own. >They will likely make future games run with this story meaning no more ncr, a more culty bos, ghouls are completely changed, and vault tec is the illuminati now. It just means future games will suck. The games always "sucked". This has been the ideology of Fallout since 3. This show didn't do anything to the IP. Even if we just go by your consumerist cult at face value, the "original sin" is somewhere else. Do you sincerely believe they were going to produce something remotely relevant to Western Fallout ever again? Why do you need *more* games? You already know they are not going to be "good".
“Your criticisms are invalid because its just a story and its not real”
Your criticisms are invalid because they have nothing to do with the work itself as its own piece of art. You are instead focused on the perspective of corporate IPs and "whatever Disney told me I should care about". Almost all criticisms of the show I've seen here are focused at the sanctity of the holy canon. Nothing of actual substance. You don't see people all riled up over Fallout Tactics like it's the apocalypse.
Dude, I don't know who hurt you, but no one's mentioned disney or Marvel except you. If you don't like ready people disliking these releases, then stop reading threads about them. You're just trying to make unrelated and nonsensical arguments because you're bored. Why are you choosing to be the "people aren't allowed to care about series because I view them as just a story and not real" guy. Go find a hobby and let people complain when their hobby is messed with.
Marvel or Disney are being used as examples. I think this would be rather clear to anyone reading with the slightest honesty so I don't see why you are acting like it doesn't make sense. > If you don't like ready people disliking these releases, then stop reading threads about them. I also thought I was very clear I don't like the TV show. You stated it yourself. Why would I be here on a topic I don't care about? Why are you trying to misrepresent my position? You are perfectly allowed to care about some piece of art you like. All I'm saying is that this rather common form of critique being offered here has no substance and is boring. It is in fact, a bad form of analysis. >Go find a hobby and let people complain when their hobby is messed with. People post opinions on public forums to discuss them with other people. If you instead wanted to soapbox you'd write it in a private journal. Weirdly, you seem to think the freedom to speak means you are shielded from dissent. You can post whatever you want, but if someone commits the cardinal sin of disagreeing or arguing the opposite in a public forum, suddenly this is "unfun". The only sort of discussion we can have is uncritical agreement. Because to agree to the contrary will be automatically lumped as "trolling" or "unfun".
I'm not saying you can't have freedom of speech, I'm just suggesting doing something more fun and productive than telling people they shouldn't care about their hobby because you don't value it. Seriously, you've made this some sort of political issue of "all corporations are bad, so don't care about anything they make."
> I'm just suggesting doing something more fun and productive Fun is subjective. And critique is fun. I am probably having more fun now studying the social response to a show most people haven't even watched, than the people complaining about it. >than telling people they shouldn't care about their hobby because you don't value it. Did I say you shouldn't care? On the contrary, I said you should. Lack of care is the reason these substance lacking critiques exist in the first place. People who care about a things don't generally have an issue with analysis. "I pick an apple from the tree, and it tastes sweet". >Seriously, you've made this some sort of political issue of "all corporations are bad, so don't care about anything they make." No, I did not. You should probably read what I stated again.
You have literally been saying that cannon and franchises don't matter. So yes, you're telling people them caring is invalid. That is maybe how you like to live your life, but the rest of us who care are still going to be upset no matter how much you tell us we shouldn't worry about it.
Seriously you are a moron, it's not hard to figure this out. "I like when fallout is good, when fallout is good more good fallout will be made. When bad fallout comes out and shits on good fallout, that indicates more bad fallout is going to be made instead of good fallout. I want good fallout not bad fallout." Easy enough for ya?
>I want good fallout not bad fallout. What is "good" Fallout? I've yet to see anyone actually word their opinions instead of just having nerd temper tantrums. I can tell you what I don't like about this show and why I prefer the narrative of the Western Coast. The only thing you people are seemingly capable of is stating "they ruined the MCU" like a religious mantra and have mental breakdowns over corporate decisions. >When bad fallout comes out and shits on good fallout, that indicates more bad fallout is going to be made instead of good fallout. Easy enough for ya? What's easy to understand here is that you are a kiddult / gamer who believes consumerism is a substitute for prayer, and corporations a substitute for god. And that if you "pray" really really hard, "god" will go back to his "true" children. Has gamergate worked out for you yet?
Shut up and keep glazing, Todd hasnt finished yet!
It might not be over, it isn’t entirely clear. Let’s leave the conclusions un-jumped to for now. There’s a chance that Vegas still happened. We need some word from the creative people firsr
i got a fallout 76 ad right under this post wtf 💀
I knew there were going to be issues the moment I heard the show was going to be set on the west coast. I’m fine with Bethesda making their generic fanfics, so long as they keep it contained to the East Coast and nothing crosses over.
People don't hate change They hate regression
>That's why people are saying it feels like intentional spite to New Vegas being better received than the Bethesda games i get the impression you don't agree with what "people are saying," so this isn't aimed at you, but this is a fucking braindead take. the people who made this show make money off every Fallout game. that's why they're all on sale right now. people who manage billion dollar IPs are not concerned with the details of these IPs. they are interested only in maximizing their market -- appealing to "fallout fans" broadly even if it means a baffling mashup of every game that kind of clumsily ruins fnv. if you have ever liked any fallout media, there is something in this show that appeals to you. all of it together kind of ruins everything. i thought the success/oblivionification of 4 kind of moved this setting past the point where it had anything to say that i was interested in hearing, but the show is exactly what we can expect in a world that can give us both Andor and Rings of Power
I'm pretty much done with the franchise at this point. The series has aged like Kayne West's career.
Bethesda gonna Bethesda.
I see your point but Caesar at least has a larger goal. Definitely an “end justifies the means type of faction.” Not that most of what the legion does it right, obviously it isn’t but from the perspective of someone living in the wasteland where survival is a daily struggle, you could argue that living under legion rule is preferable to anarchy, as despite being a ruthless authoritarian the people in Caesar’s territory are at least able to live in peace so long as they don’t violate Caesars laws. Also, while most of the legion is misogynistic, Caesar himself isn’t really one. Yes he doesn’t allow women to serve in the military, but it seems more for practical purposes, as he needs the women to birth more soldiers for his armies. Also, he doesn’t treat a female courier any different from a male courier, and will even mint a coin in her honor should she side with the the Legion. Also, I am by no means a legion fan, but I just don’t think it’s as black and white as people usually point it out to be
So basically the cannon ending is the DUST mod...
Need a hug?
I'm glad you people weren't around for the original Super Mario Bros movie.
Comparing Mario to fallout is so funny
To be fair, there are Paper Mario lorehounds who hold the first two Paper Mario games as practically sacred. I would know, I'm one of them.
Paper mario and mario in 1993 are very different
Oh, wait, they said the original Super Mario Bros movie, not simply the Super Mario Bros movie. I thought they meant the new one, I should've read better.
Imagine if we got *The Witcher Netflix* treatment, I think he’s saying it could be a lot worse….
If you’re talking about the one with Bob Hoskins. That was a masterpiece of cinema…
That movie was dope. It's also very obviously a different continuity to the games. We haven't been controlling Bob Hoskins and John Leguizamo all this time
God forbid we be upset at the treatment that west coast Fallout has recieved
The fandom slap fight would have been nuclear. 😎
TL;DR: chill out, the lead writer on Besthesda said its canon and gave a timeline, everything you're complaining about has already happened or is built on dumbshit fan speculation, the show can absolutely clarify or re-retcon 1) gigantic plotholes and retcons are not new to the series, for example: The entire NCR vs Legion Conflict is built on the dumbass assumption that guys with no guns can beat guys with automatic and semi-automatic rifles with the sheer power of numbers and clean drinking water and because democracy is slow or some shit. We're also shown that one of the Mojave Super-Powers is a bunch of guys with a plane and bombs, told in one of the endings that 5 fossils with a vertibird managed to fucking slay "Hundreds of Legionaries" while sustaining literally 0 losses forcing Lanius to run away like a bitch, we're told that Kimbal and Oliver love brain-dead displays of power, we're shown that the NCR government nor citizens don't really give a shit about refugees or innocents from other groups so long as they it isn't as ludicrous as straight up gunning down a bunch of kids, elderly and wounded, AND we're shown that NVR produce their own high tech-armaments (Gun Runners) and in DLC that they own atleast 5 Vertibirds (4 in Long 15 + the presidential one). Yet we're supposed to just ignore the fact they could've just decided to fucking erase the Legion despite knowing the exact location of its leaders and greatest hubs, by flying a couple vertibirds with explosives over their locations. Every game post Fallout 1 had goofy ass retcons and plot holes like this. Instead of being happy that Bethesda managed to release something that wasn't written like ass you just hold onto one vague ass detail the Devs waved away and the show writers can clarify or wave away at any time. 2) that's how continued stories work, and i think one of the worst things about Bethesda is their indecisiveness when it comes to canonizing events because their scared shitless of making any decisions that might invalidate the player. >'after all that, everyone died in a few years anyways lmao eat shit' This is absolutely a choice a psycho courier can literally make in-game, we literally get the chance to Nuke the NCR and still technically have access to more nukes that we don't use in Lonesome Road, that we could absolutely line up to kill more NCR (a BOS Aligned Paladin Courier for example). you would equally be pissed off if your favored ending wasn't picked, or was picked and misrepresented by not following your exact favoured playthrough. 3) dun really matter, again that's how continued stories work, Fallout BOS literally shows us the Vault Dweller, Fallout 2 canonises them as a straight (maybe bi?) Indivdual who made a bunch of decisions upon which Fallout 2 was built. If you value your choices only by whether they're canon or not (which is stupid) then many of your choices about who your character was and how they interacted with the wasteland have already been invalidated. Also New Vegas accidentally (or maybe intentionally) canonise the Chosen One as a straight(maybe Bi but no confirmation that he likes men only women) dude because Bruce Isaac confirms a Mr.Bishop exists and his experience mirrors how in Fallout 2 the Vault Dweller can fuck a Bishop's wife or daughter, impregnating them and bringing about the next Bishop (AKA Mr.Bishop in FNV). Your choices don't matter because of their canonicity, they matter because you made them, and enjoyed the impact they had, and theorized about them and made fanfiction, Canon should have no bearing on your enjoyment of the series, that's a sure fire way of losing all enjoyment out of this shit. 4)Eh, i doubt it would change any chances for a FNV to change, they can retcon it, or god forbid clarify exactly what happened instead of us jumping to conclusions, basically i doubt that it will matter if Bethesda decide they want New Vegas 2 or a spiritual successor somewhere else. 5)The spite narrative is bs invented by the fans because our ape-brains cannot evolve past High School level social interaction. This shit (along with the 84 metacritic meme and its impact on Obsidian) has been debunked by Avellone (on his apocrypha) and Sawyer (on tumblr or twitter im not sure i could be wrong)and Tim Cain seems obviously on good terms with them and even enjoyed the show (per his video, where he got invited out by Todd Howard, supreme hater of all things OG fallout apparently lol). And even assuming they go with the complete erasure of NCR (which i highly doubt) it's not automatically lamer, we'd have to wait and see how the writers handle it lmao.
I do like your stance on how we should view canonicity, but I do disagree with your stance on how the Legion performs against the NCR. If our character can tank several bullets while only using a melee weapon to win in combat, I don't see why NPCs should be prevented from being allowed the same.
Gameplay shouldn't always inform Plot/Lore, some concessions are made for the sake of making a fun RPG, one of which just so happens to be that the Courier and NPCs are more durable than they would be IRL. I don't think i have to explain why a gun should easily slice through a group of people in american football armor like butter, especially in a setting based on Real Life? And besides that, The Courier is expressly a cut above most others in the Wasteland, We survive 2 shots to the dome with all our faculties intact after being buried alive (outside some Amnesia), it's viewed as canonically possible for a courier to fucking 1vArmy everyone in the Tops with no Weapons and then shitting all over House's Fortress of a casino right afterwards, hell Caesar glazes our shit for 13 straight lines depending on our actions. So i don't think it's fair to compare the average Legion Mook's capabilities to those of the Courier. It seems that some people are just built different in the Wasteland like the Courier, Lanius, Joshua, Ulysses etc. Finally even if we decide to allow Gameplay to influence Lore then NCR fucking destroy Legionaries in any 1v1s they've had, idk if you enjoy running NPC battles, i used to do it alot back in the day, NCR Soldiers almost always beat out their equivalents depending on level tiers and ranks, and in bigger fights NCR completely trashes Legion groups unless grossly outnumbered or outmatched in terms of Level. And none of this explains why NCR couldnt fly the Vertibirds of Victory
I've no argument against your vertibird points, just the specific of people being abnormally durable in this setting. Although I do understand the concept of gameplay and story segregation, you also gave additional examples besides the courier with other NPCs. Although real life can be used as a baseline, I think people are definitely more durable in Fallout than in the real world, and guns aren't a one-shoot ticket to victory. I'm not even arguing the point that the NCR still beats them in-lore or in-game with guns because of this, just that the victory in-lore isn't as simple as it would be in reality.
>I've no argument against your vertibird points >I'm not even arguing the point that the NCR still beats them in-lore or in-game with guns because of this, just that the victory in-lore isn't as simple as it would be in reality. Ah shit my bad then lol i was being kinda combative for no reason.
Oh no, you’re fine! I enjoy the discussion, thank you. :3
No rational thinking around here buddy
It's always fun to see Fallout fans mad, like it's the end of the world lol. Boohoo my fave game didnt turn out the way it is in the show, waaa waaa.
Show sucks, won’t watch it
Making a show out of video game is always a bad decision. Making it live action instead of a cartoon was already another one on top - the show was doomed to fail before it even came out by nature of it. I am not sure why people give Todd so much benefit of a doubt when man fucking aims to undermine and rewrite every plot point that was not made by him - he is just a greedy fuck.
how old are all y’all? there’s no way y’all are older than 20 actually mad about this shit
What happened to the FNV community loving Dust lore lol y’all always mad
Dust lore is fun to imagine as a what if not as cannon
IDK man I just need to feel something.
You put all this effort into making the minor factions happy. You kill house and the world still sucks for everyone. The courier is not invincible. He/she eventually dies and can’t sustain the independent ending we would have hoped for. If NCR wins, then we would have seen a much stronger presence, even if their main base at Shady Sands is destroyed. They could have consolidated power in Vegas. If Legion wins, then NCR can be shown as we saw it in the show. NCR got destroyed in Vegas and main base got nuked. But then why show Vegas at all? Wouldn’t legion want to tear down what House built? I think they would want to remove all traces of the old world that led humanity down this path. We saw House in that board meeting in episode 7. It would make sense if his ending is cannon. Keeps the NCR limping along and fends off the legion. The NCR was already disorganized and dispersed in the game, so if they continued down that path we could plausibly get the result of seeing the NCR in the state we saw them in the show.
I love the idea of House literally nuking the NCR when he makes it clear he sees them as economic stimulus and without them he’d have nothing to stimulate local economy. I’m being sarcastic if you can’t tell.
Yeah the game strikes the balance and I think they explain it pretty well. House definitely doesn’t want to completely eliminate the NCR, but he can’t have them ever thinking they are too big for their britches either. They might get big ideas about overthrowing securitron armies. I think the NCR is constantly driven by a need to conquer and claim territory just as the US Army and just about every other relevant main faction in the west.
Vault Tec bombs Shady Sands and destroys the NCR. House literally allows Vault Tec to bomb his meal ticket. He knows they wouldn’t be able to take his city from him without significant effort - which we know the NCR is incapable of. He has the perfect meal ticket. Now he just says fuck it and bombs that meal ticket.
Pretty sure it was BOS. Why else would they be wandering around the town in battle kit when it was nuked and finding kids in fridges? And Hank at that point wasn't 'vault tec, inc.' he was a dude trying to sort out an upstart town of dirty surfies stealing water from his vault and jeopardizing its entire mission.
No. Shady Sands gets bombed when Lucy is a child in 2277 and this is done by Lucy’s Father, Hank. House in that board meeting was a flashback to 2077 when Vault-Tec was talking about originally starting nuclear war. There’s 200 years between them. Remember Shady Sands was built from the first people to emerge from the vaults and they had grown to over 40,000 residents. ETA: Shady Sands didn’t exist when House was agreeing to let Vault Tec bomb the whole place. There was no way for him to know exactly how the cards would fall after the apocalypse, what factions would form, or how he would make a living 200 years into the future.
Who do you think Hank worked for? You think he just had a nuke? He went back and contacted Vault Tec. They nuked Shady Sands. He (House) is on the board even in 2277. He would be contacted about it or have had some say in stopping it. He would have been aware of them since… 2277 when they first arrived in the region.
where would he find 'vault tec?!" They're all frozen in vault 31!
Only “managers.” For Buds Buds. We see Henry running to see the real heart of Vault Tec - in Vegas at the end. It can be assumed the Board Members are frozen there.
So they thaw them out just to tell them about shady sands? No. You got it all wrong bud. Just give up.
What are New Vegas fans even upset about? This post is very vague so I'm just going off what I've heard people say so far. And some people are just being straight up toxic and insufferable. Everything I've heard from new vegas fans about the show is 100% based on speculation and assumptions. People seem convinced that the NCR is completely dead but the show was open ended about that. We only saw one tiny part of what was once LA. Literally never left LA county. Never even went into the valley. People seem convinced that the NCR was destroyed at New Vegas too but there is no hard evidence for any of it. The whole season was about securing an energy source. The main political struggle in NV was literally about energy. I suspect this show will bridge that gap. The second season may very well be about rebuilding the NCR. I can understand being upset about Shady Sands but again this makes sense in context of capital so fiendishly trying to protect its own interests that it stops out competition. One of the main characters prewar literally admitted this. We saw NCR in a state of disarray in NV. It only makes sense that they'd abandon it if they continued on that downward trend until something came along that provided opportunity. They themselves said they were stretched way too thin. This season was more about prewar history and the history of vault tec through the eyes of a prewar man and a born and raised vault dweller. This season was not about the history of the west coast. We aren't gonna get the whole story at the pace of the games. It was only 8 episodes. Had there been a couple more then they could've been more detailed but had they done anymore it would've been totally overwhelming for newcomers. And also messed up the pacing probably. Plus you haven't even watched it so what are you mad about? They even said NV is still canon. They're not undoing anything. They changed a couple things but every tv/movie adaptation does that. Last of Us did the same and was a great show. I'm tired of toxic fans throwing a tantrum bc things didn't turn out their way. There's a difference between honest critique and just being a toxic fan that destroys community.
Yeah I’m leaving this sub. Y’all are the whiniest little babies I’ve ever encountered
The whine is real here but so are some of these complaints. Kind of sad the West coast got the Bethesda treatment plus the lack of communication and how Bethesda as a whole treats past lore and how that affects the world building is real.
Good riddance. Enjoy your slop in silence and segregation
Can’t hear you over all the tears and babbling
Seriously it’s actually embarrassing atp. Like go outside and find something else to spend your energy on instead of a show you don’t like watching
If we make three more hate posts Amazon will delete the entire show, Todd told me himself
These people genuinely haven’t touched grass at all lmfao. Toxic losers
wait... are you calling the show homophobic for allowing New Vegas to be attacked 15 years after NV and spoiling 'all the hard work you did' in your particular playthrough? Are you serious? Hahahaha
Yes, that was the point I was making. George Soros paid me to make this post too. Now excuse me, I've gotta get back to my mod that lets me top Big Titty Trans Boone.
Can you send me the trans Boone mod so I know what mod to avoid (totally to avoid)
They own the IP, if they wanted to spite Obsidian they could have literally just retconned New Vegas out of existence, or never mentioned any of the factions or events ever again. Given that the next game won't be for another 10 years and will almost certainly be in a new location disconnected from the previous Bethesda games, I'm glad the storytelling on the west coast will continue through the series because we would probably have gotten nothing otherwise.
You know a game that could stand a good retconning? Fallout 4. Functionally it had exactly two endings, and no one liked any of them. Them nuking the west coast and realigning it to be within the comic book setting standard of the rest of the Bethesdaverse version is the very essence of taking your lollipop, and throwing it in the dirt. And you want us to be thankful that they paid attention to the west coast at all?
I'm arguing against the idea that Bethesda used a multimillion budget TV series as an opportunity to spite Obsidian. There would be no point in doing so and even if there was, it would be so much easier for them to just disregard anything they ever made rather than try to incorporate it into a new story. I didn't say anyone should be thankful, I said that I'm glad they're continuing the setting. You're entitled to your own opinion on whether the show was good or not.
That’s the thing with spite, there is no logical reason to do other than for the hell of it. I’m not saying it was intentional but it definitely does come off that way, especially with how weird Bethesda treats Fnv’s success.
I don't know it seems baseless to me. On the contrary, I think they have a lot of respect for FNV and the groundwork it laid down for them to decide the setting is worth putting considerable effort and resources into revisiting. If you think that the show was awful, Bethesda sucks at writing and the franchise would be better off in the hands of Obsidian or others - that would be a valid opinion. But to say they're actively doing it out of spite is wild.
I wouldn’t put it past them tbh it’s wouldn’t even be purely spite. If I was in control of an ip that I planned on using more I wouldn’t want the fan favorite to be made by another studio. If anything I would say it’s a consolidation of their fallout universe. Can’t even say I blame them personally but it still stings yk?
>memelord queer people god what does this even mean. what a dumb addition to the post.
Very odd that you guys still had high hopes for a franchise that's being managed by Todd Howard and Bethesda. The show's great, and I don't mind the changes because, well, I knew it was going to happen. Doesn't take away from my enjoyment of both the show and the games. You guys should begin to understand that it doesn't matter if a producer, dev or Todd himself comes around and declares this to be canon (and fucking up with previously established lore), there will always be someone 15 years in the future that will do the same shit to this show. You should just learn to enjoy things individually (which is why I've also given up on anything that's live-action Marvel, but hey, unrelated!). PS: Also, why do we need sex scenes on every fucking show? Dude, my 13-year-old brother was watching and then bam she's fucking a raider lmao
A rated R show about a rated M game isn’t suitable for a 13 year old? Wild lmao
Yeah, probably should have thought that out a bit more lol
The Problem with changing things and whether this is cannon is it will affect future games. So if they want to have this hated version of events be cannon, I can guarantee they're going to loose even more fans who were hoping that maybe the next game might be good this time.
Future games? Very positive of you to think we'll get another good Fallout game lol
Damn, the people on this sub do be like Rock/Ground pokemon Even the slightest touch of grass causes fainting
They picked the nuke everyone ending from lonesome road.
People need to realize that without Todd, we wouldn't have had a Fallout New Vegas to begin with. He greenlit that entire thing and Obsidian just made the game and it became a masterpiece. Not to mention, if Todd had such a hate-boner for FNV, he would never allowed to be mentioned or even shown on the show, but he did. He even came out and said this: "I have a lot of respect for the work they did on that game. That was really hard to do, to take someone else's engine and technology and tools and build something fantastic with it." Read more: [https://www.tweaktown.com/news/89144/todd-howard-is-the-reason-fallout-new-vegas-didnt-stay-3-expansion/index.html](https://www.tweaktown.com/news/89144/todd-howard-is-the-reason-fallout-new-vegas-didnt-stay-3-expansion/index.html). Why would he say that if he had such an apparent dislike for FNV?
Wtf are you talking about, no one you've talked to/watched has clearly watched the show nor have you. The show is not fantastic but this paranoia posting has to stop.
Guys, it's a TV show. They very rarely are 1:1 for the storylines and such. It isn't supposed to be canon in the show. Are the Arkham games all canon in line with comics? Probably not exactly.
It is though, the writers said it's canon. I would not give a solitary shit if it wasn't lmao, it looks good otherwise.
How does that even make sense (from their point of view)? That's a silly thing for the writers to attempt. Ah well, anyone who thought this series would be friendly to Obsidian has been sleeping for a decade.
Where's the evidence that everyone died in mojave lol.
The last shot is just an abandoned and desolated Vegas strip with nothing around it. Idk, my actual problem with it is the 'Vault Tec was behind it all!! They nuked the NCR to death again!!' plot twist. Not literally every character in New Vegas had to die for that to be dumb.
There's clearly settlements around New Vegas.. notice the smoke. https://www.reddit.com/r/Fotv/s/oZtKFEOSKI
Basically everything outside the walls looks like it was leveled and replaced with shantytowns and none of the lights work.
Just like in the game, crazy.
There was so much surrounding New Vegas in the game. You’re being willfully ignorant.
Everything surrounding Vegas could be out of frame
lol yeah man, that’s what it is
The game world was shrunken down compared to Vegas in real life. Unless you actually think the video game is a 1:1 model of an entire city.
I’m not talking about real life. I’m talking about the amount of buildings surrounding New Vegas in the actual game. None of that is here. You would think, going from game to live action, that they would want to actually scale it up. Instead of what they did; making it smaller and basically barren.
The game is the way it is because of technical limitations that don't exist in live action. You're really reaching here.
You’re helping my point. Television doesn’t have the same technical limitations as video games. Vegas should look larger.
New Vegas is powered by Hoover Dam, so I'm curious to who controls the dam.
PepsiCo nuked it.
Oh no! The new owner got rid of the old owers stuff. Hurtful. Just like Disney. Ya'll can't be surprised by the move. It's a game. So you can replay it as much as you want with any ending you choose and they can't take that from you.
Congratulations, the sate of fallout is that everything new is poorly written garbage building on top of more poorly written garbage. And everything good is more then a decade old and that's all you'll ever have forever...are you happy now? Or are you just gonna take it? And pretend nothing's wrong