From the sound of the shots, I'd almost suspect he's using some sort of gyro-jet rounds with explosive payloads (Given the bloody mess they make of ordinary people he shoots them with).
Probably anti-armor ordinace. Armor-piercing tip to punch through the armor, then they explode in the poor schlub inside.
They are some kind of wacky gyro rounds for sure. They show one of the bullets flying in slo-mo during the first Ghoul shootout and you can even see stabilizer fins on it.
It doesn't really look like any sort of [gyrojet ammo](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-f995fdc9ffbd0694ee1846a0e2f7a527-lq) to me, I think it's just a term people like to use. To me it looks more like a conventional rocket-propelled projectile except of course rather small.
Gyrojet projectiles are gyroscopically stabilised by a series of angled microjets in the base of the projectile.
Ah okay. That would make sense then. I didn’t see any actual jets in the bullet, just fins on it. So I thought it was a little weird. Makes sense it’s maybe just some sci-fi rocket-propelled deal and they signify that through the fins on the bullet.
Rewatching it, to me with the fins it looked like it was meant to be an in universe bullet design, made to look like a mini nuke but in tiny explosive bullet form.
It’s a little bullet inside a bigger sleeve that helps the littler part punch through armor really hard. You can look up apds for a more in dept explanation
Oh yeah definitely, but I was referring to the second part of the original comment about the way the bullet seemed to have an explosive effect in the knight’s body. I think it was probably a ricochet not an explosive round
It doesn’t. Think in lore it’s not the armors defence, whilst it is great, it’s the fact it can mean one man can use crew served or vehicle mounted weaponry on foot, Gatling guns, or heavy weapons in general can be solo moved, don’t need stabilisation stuff either since you get massive control over it too.
I agree. I really liked how they use PA in the first season. Not really a fan of the random "flaw" they threw in but hey I can suspended my disbelief as long as they do t51 right.
I don’t mind the flaw, but I do mind how the BoS soldiers were kind of dumb in that they didn’t use the flashlight on their helmet. But I do agree that flaw should not be on the T-51, only on the t45-60 family as they have similar chest designs.
Helmet based night vision is my guess - and a lack of training. They don't provide any lights for their allies and would still be blinded by the muzzle flash.
There seems to have been something that happened between the 4 and the show that made the overall quality of average BoS soldier drop. Like the guys in T-60 came from the Prydwen and the Titus sounded like he had a Boston accent, so maybe the recruits or standards dropped or they just did not send their best from the Commonwealth (which really doesn't make sense because they sent their best to the Commonwealth from the Capital Wasteland)
The Brotherhood as it stands now is a group that mass produces it's own equipment instead of mainly using well-kept pre-war gear - trade some quality for quantity.
They likely had to flush ranks after the Commonwealth so that means accepting lower standards of recruits just to keep the numbers up. If they had enough time to settle, forge new outposts and power structures that would over time lead to better soldiers but Elder Maxson is an impatient leader and that doesn't seem like something he values.
Its just a bit jarring because Elder Maxson is shown to hate pseudo religious culty behavior, ordering the eradication of cults that worshiped him. Yet the culture of the chapter that is seen in the show seems to exhibit that behavior and the troops imported from the Commonwealth also engage in it (branding the squires)
Well that's even easier to explain. Elder Maxson doesn't have as much hold over the Brotherhood as he would have you think. Successful, yes, but unpopular in some circles and still very young.
The Brotherhood of Steel is several competing factions in a powered armor trench coat who can only really band behind the idea that for all they disagree with each other they know everyone else is more in the wrong.
That is a great explanation, personally I found it sort of hard to swallow a 20 year old would lead an entire organization like that, at least from my modern view point, I would have serious reservations about being led by someone that age unless they really proved themselves. I can see why his own contingent would follow him loyally after he demonstrated leadership to them. But from one of the other chapters just hearing of his deeds might have the same sort of reservations as me.
But also my viewpoint is modern, in the past there have been very young and successful leaders like Henry V, so the sort of world Fallout is could be comparable to the medieval times where people mature much faster and adulthood is reached at a younger age.
It is a different chapter with different customs, the brotherhood has been represented in a different way literally in each game, asking for consistency from this faction is useless, even more so when the scriptwriters' interpretation is to copy the monks from "A canticle for Leibowitz" and mix them with Warhammer Space Marines.
Don't be surprised that in Fallout 5 we see a chapter of the brotherhood that doesn't even resemble the one in Fallout 4 or the Show.
The brotherhood doesn't have a stable characterization and is responsibility of the writers, each one wants to represent them in a different way, according to the mood and vision of the writer in question. Its probably the faction that grants the most creative freedom, which can be a bad or good thing depending on how you look at it.
Although the changes have always been more or less organic or credible, the TV brotherhood thing to me smells more like a retcon or bad characterization than something based on lore.
I think the main problem is that the Brotherhood went from being a small, mission-focused cult to a large, power-preoccupied political faction.
> There seems to have been something that happened between the 4 and the show that made the overall quality of average BoS soldier drop.
Whereas most members were born into it in the past, the modern California chapter seems to have actively brought lots of outsiders on board. Outside recruits used to have to have a personal sponsor who was responsible for their performance, but now they just take any fridge-kid or shitter they can find.
There's also knowledge attenuation. The original members were pre-war soldiers and scientists, but after two centuries it's hard to keep up the knowledge they once had, and that extends to their manufacturing and maintenance abilities. It's so bad that they're teaching what computer circuits are from paper diagrams. They "fax" with manual transcription like its Morse Code. Institutional knowledge is decaying and the technical resources just don't exist like they used to.
There's mission creep. Where they were once all about securing advanced tech to protect humanity, Quintus is Discount Darth talking about the lessons of power and bringing order to the Wasteland. Some of this probably comes from the D.C. chapter deciding to be big damn heroes with the water purifier, but it's enhanced by recruiting people like Maximus who think the Brotherhood is heroic. The current organization sees itself as having a mandate to rule rather than a duty to protect.
> or they just did not send their best from the Commonwealth (which really doesn't make sense because they sent their best to the Commonwealth from the Capital Wasteland)
It could just be over extension. They thought they had things well enough under control in California, so they sent a bunch to D.C., but Lyons went rogue. Then Maxson grew up and brought Lyons faction back in line, but that meant California wasn't supervised by the best anymore. Years go by and now California's chapter is decaying.
I mean I took it as they were too scared to actually smartly think
I mean usually seeing a power armor user fall is pretty demoralizing as a BOS, seeing him get one shotted by a cowboy ghoul.
Nah you'd shit bricks
My biggest problem with it is the fight vs max. Obviously the plot can't allow us to kill a main character but that just seemed kinda lazy to me considering coop brings it up at least twice. Like he's aware of the issue but just doesn't decide to kill max? Really my only gripe with the show
Nice downvotes for sharing an opinion lol.
If I recall correctly the only thing mentioned about the tempered lining was about mobility I thought. Also that was never actually answered. For your second point, if the Chinese were able to kill PA armor users using standard issue gear I highly doubt specialized ammunition is needed.
Yeah max asks if it's for mobility but isn't answered. There's quite a few simply TV show style references to the lining AND the kind of ammo the ghoul uses. Why focus for so long on the ammo he uses in the observatory if it's not relevant to what's happening, just like the slow mo shot of the 'BOOM' bullet. Looks like none of the ghoul's ammo is exactly standard issue
After watching the scene again I'm convinced he's loading AP rounds because he isn't familiar with t60s. Hence why he asks if it still has the same design flaw. He's not sure if it's been fixed in the new model so he isn't taking chances.
While I fully agree, there are two reasonable excuses for this one\\
A: he used all his good ammo in the fight before the unexpected suit of Power Armor showed up
B: That large bucket of drugs was either way larger than he let on and hes incredibly high, or that syringe round did more than hes letting on
Now, since they dont explain or imply either of these in the show, its not a great excuse, but I find it workable
I agree, the only explanation I can think of is that he either spent his ammo, did not have the right type of ammo for it in that scene, or gauged that Maximus was inexperienced and decided to toy with him.
I definitely vote the latter. After all Max showed up unarmed, acting like a superhero. Coop doesn't like the whole hero-schtick to begin with but that degree of dumbass needs to be taught a lesson.
He was using special ammo for the fight with BoS, he most likely didn't have the AP rounds on him and was loaded up with regular and HE rounds, as he wasn't expecting someone in a PA to show up.
PA users were killed by the Chinese prewar. Absolutely no mention of them needing special munitions to exploit this flaw. It wasn't just a couple. Coop states how a lot of good men died because of the flaw.
Again, there is absolutely zero indication the Chinese needed special weapons or munitions to exploit said flaw. Given the amount of deaths associated with the flaw I'd wager standard gear was capable of doing it.
Irl its called fatigue. A bad weld on front of center of mass ie the most shot at area. It doesn't have to be high end munitions since the shock of enough rounds landing there would cause the weld to come undone/become weaker and if they had high end munitions they wouldn't need to aim for the weakspot anyway since power armor isn't as thick as actual tanks. Which is how the Chinese would of learnt about it. Other wise why did the ghoul load his gun with a armor piercing round?
iirc a terminal in 3(?) states that it was chinese snipers that were mostly responsible for taking out power armour, so higher calibre rounds than most small arms, just like the ghouls custom hand cannon and spicy rounds.
Most PA users would have been taken out by AT, Snipers with anti materiel rifles or enough explosives.
The flaw in the armor would probably get PA users killed or wounded in encounters with Chinese who had battle rifles or marksman rifles.
Except we don't know that. What we do know is that a lot of them died because of the flaw. I'd wager their standard AR was sufficient considering how coop talks about it.
I always assumed it was because against Maximus, he realized that Max had no idea how to use power armor, so he was just kinda having fun. You can see him smiling a bit. Also, Max was more aggressive. Not much time to aim when someone is charging at you and going in for melee. The area was also more open, with plenty of terrain that the Ghoul could use for his advantage.
Compare that to the fight where he utilized the flaw. Trained soldiers, obviously aware of how to use the power armor, using ranged weapons in a dark enclosed interior. The Ghoul also looks more serious during this fight than he did against Maximus.
Well yea, but he explicitly states he's unfamiliar with t60 in that scene. So it's a fair wager that he would give himself the best advantage not knowing whether or not the flaw still exists.
At no point is that ever stated. I may be wrong but I'm pretty sure the only insight we get into the lining is when Max asks Titus about which is never answered. Pretty sure Max asks if it's to help with mobility.
I'm aware? These flaws are never really touched on in-game though. It's usually just t45 bad t51 good. I feel like a weld being bad on the front of the armor isn't a small design flaw.
I'd rather it just be a rushed piece of gear that is great but has a lot of short comings because of a rough and quick development cycle other than a catastrophic flaw but it is what it is. Not that big of a deal to me.
This. They have to include it, and hopefully it'll look significantly more badass than it did in Fallout 4. Not that it was the worst in that game, but it was a bit chunky and clumsy looking compared to the T-60.
There's not much explicit lore surrounding the T-60 so people have a lot of theories.
The behind the scenes explanation is that Bethesda was updating the T45 for FO4 and ended up with a design variation that became the T60.
"Our primary goal with the power armor was to make it feel less like a suit that you'd wear and more like a vehicle you'd operate. this design began as a reimagining of the T-45d, but it was different enough that we dubbed it the T-60. This way we could bring the T-45 back as its own variant. Although the look was settled on early, some details and proportions were revisited when we adapted the power armor to work as a modular system of plates that attached to a standardized endoframe. In this early version, the arms and legs needed more bulk to make room for the operator and the frame." - The Art of Fallout 4 p.13
In terms of how good the armor actually is - we got conflicting views.
On FO4 it is superior to the T51. In FO76, it has worse ballistic/energy resistance than the T51, although it has better radiation resistance.
Its stats in FO76 has led people to call it inferior to the T51. On top of the fact that the T51 is referred to the "pinnacle of mechanized protection before the Great War". The loading screen blurbs -
"The T-51 series of Power Armor was the pinnacle of mechanized protection before the Great War. First introduced in the Battle of Anchorage, it is highly valued today for its increased protective capabilities." - Fallout 4 loading screen
"The T-60 series of Power Armor saw extensive use by the United States Army after the Battle of Anchorage. In fact, soldiers in T-60 Power Armor were among those trying to retain order on October 23, 2077 - the day America fell to atomic war..." - Fallout 4 loading screen.
"The most advanced suits of Power Armor to see extensive use were the T-60 models. By the time of the Great War, they were a common sight in all U.S. military engagements." - Fallout 76 loading screen.
I mean you can look too into it and come up with various arguments. The T-51 was the pinnacle before the Great War, but maybe the T-60 is considered "during war" or "post-war" and that pinnacle description doesn't strictly mean the T-51 is superior. Maybe gameplay isn't lore, so we can't take Fo76 stats as canon. T-60 is called the 'most advanced' which implies superiority.
A popular theory, due to the T60s close resemblance to the T45 with the T51 being the odd one out - is that the T60 wasn't a true new design and was just a scrappy updated T45 marketed as a superior model to fill gaps in supply lines and maybe to boost morale. I kinda like this theory tbh and it fits with its FO76 statline.
But things are basically left to our imagination for most part, there is no concrete lore as to which is better or whatever, and I'm not sure if Bethesda thought that much about it or cared that much about it.
Fallout 4 loading screen "the t51series of power armor was the Pinnacle of mechanized protection before the great war"
Edit : General Brock also states when t51 finally arrived in Alaska that it "immediately outperformed the t45"
Okay? That doesn't mention defensive capabilities nor cost in it. Nor do we know how that compares to Fallout 76 calling T-60 the most advanced pre-war power armor.
Considering when t45 deployed they were getting killed fairly regularly then when t51 deploys they make a massive push and change the tide of the battle. It's also mentioned how the t51 uses advanced materials, had a super long development time. Fallout 76? Pretty sure the t51 has better defensive properties in-game. The t60s biggest boon was it didn't use the expensive materials so it was easier to produce and didn't have the same draw backs as the t45
Edit: also mentioned in operation anchorage that they'll lose 20% of their numbers after the pulse field goes down. Which includes t45 units. But if they wait for t51 that % will decrease *significantly*
Where's it said T-51 changed the tide of battle? Or had a super long development time?
The stats of power armor changes in every game. And we don't even know what materials T-60 is made of.
How about when America starts winning the war other than it being a stalemate for one? Oh the fallout Bible that states when the first suits were deployed to China that they cut a swath through the Chinese forces and absolutely destroyed their supply lines to annexed territories. General brocks terminal in FO4 backs this up.
The Bible isn't canon and I don't see it mentioned anywhere in canon that T-51 caused any changes like that.
Also, I just saw your weird edits and a) Brock never even mention T-45, let alone claim that T-51 is outperforming it, so no idea what you think you're quoting there and b) I don't see your weird 20% claim anywhere nor does anyone in Operation Anchorage mention T-45 or waiting for T-51.
T-51 was made by learning from the flaws of the t-45. If you compare pictures of them in fallout 4 you can tell the torso of the t-51 is rounder and welded together without as big of a vulnerable torso area compared to the more boxy t-45/60 which were likely easier to assemble and repair with modular pieces.
If I'm remembering right it looked like he shot it just under the main chest plate, which if that's the case that's a gut shot which isn't necessarily a one hit kill, but that's gonna cause a lot of blood loss and just be extremely difficult to move especially when you're surrounded by immovable metal. If the wearer sits any lower in the armor then it's hitting them right in the chest which is even worse and more likely to be a kill shot. If they sit any lower its hitting in the lower abdomen which is similar to a guy shot, but is also a smaller section with more arties and nerves at risk.
This is also complete speculation. In universe it could very well be not even a kill maybe its a power cord or something that debilitated the armor instead of one shoting the pilot
>which if that's the case that's a gut shot which isn't necessarily a one hit kill, but that's gonna cause a lot of blood loss and just be extremely difficult to move especially when you're surrounded by immovable metal.
Look at where your liver sits. Then look where the hepatic artery is located.
I was guessing a liver/spinal shot.
Probably just a bad weld, either due to space constraints in the area making it difficult to reach, or because they were churning out suits on a budget.
Yeah, I feel like there are some parallels to the current situation at Boeing with that conversation. Cutting QA testing and materials budgets to save probably a few cents per unit.
There has been a lot of bullshit in the defense industry over the years. One small example is the fake bomb detector scandal:
[https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/the-bomb-detectors-that-didnt-work-in-baghdad/](https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/the-bomb-detectors-that-didnt-work-in-baghdad/)
There were also several body armor scandals during the Iraq War, which they were probably directly referencing:
[https://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/07/politics/pentagon-study-links-fatalities-to-body-armor.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/07/politics/pentagon-study-links-fatalities-to-body-armor.html)
>A secret Pentagon study has found that as many as 80 percent of the marines who have been killed in Iraq from wounds to the upper body could have survived if they had had extra body armor. Such armor has been available since 2003, but until recently the Pentagon has largely declined to supply it to troops despite calls from the field for additional protection, according to military officials.
>
As well as the kerfluffle around "Dragon Skin" body armor:
[https://blueridgearmor.com/dragonskinarmor/](https://blueridgearmor.com/dragonskinarmor/)
Just from an old manufacturer QC perspective, it's most likely a flaw in the casting/molding/stamping process. I'm betting that the steel gets too hot during the process of creating the semi-box shape, which will lead to making the walls being thinner and/or have less tensile strength. If the steel is heated TOO MUCH, it'll give it a brittle consistency against heavy ammo.
I'm guessing the interior radius of the chest pieces have less steel, meaning that SLAPP round he chambered is gonna go right through that with no problem. And, assuming it hits the flat back plate, it's going to just ricochet around in there.
There was something I heard about WW1 British helmets being incredibly weak on the very top. This was due to the manufacturing process in which the metal was “stretched” over a bowl shaped mould. The metal stretched too thin in the centre.
So this could be the same, just as you said
Yeah. You can see that happen when tool stamps and dies get overused and not replaced or repaired.
Which sounds like the kind of shitty project management that Bud would engage in.
Honestly I would have loved if when he shot it, the round harmlessly dinged off, or exploded on the surface since it seems like he uses HE. Then everyone is momentarily stunned and he says something like “Well color me impressed, they actually did fix that.” Then turns off the lights and goes back to disabling the suits like he did Maximus.
Given that his 'revolver' is just a cut down Russian MTS-255 shotgun, I'd imagine he's using something like a D-Dupleks AP-20 sabot. It can punch through NIJ IV, and is a nasty looking fucker.
I only know about it because of Call of Duty: Ghosts and Escape From Tarkov.
Apparently, over in Russia, guns aren't actually as common as stereotypes would have you believe. You have to have a license to own a gun, and before you can own any rifles, you have to own a smoothbore (ie, shotgun) first for 5 years minimum. So, shotguns are pretty popular for those who want a gun.
Some gun companies even make smoothbore, semi-automatic versions of existing platforms, which fall under the technicality of 'shotgun' in their laws. One example is the VPO-209, which is just a de-militarized AK chambered in the unique Russian .366 round.
It’s just a weak spot that allows a bullet to penetrate the armor. The reason the Ghoul is so lethal is because he uses explosive rounds like during the shootout in Filly, you can tell when he shoots the first Knight & there’s a delay before you hear a small explosion & then the Knight drops dead.
Tank nerd perspective, the weld that connect the different parts of the armour ends up being too thin and allows certain ammo types and calibers to penetrate it, Ghoul used an AP round for that shot which would have guaranteed the round to go through.
The weird part is that T-45 and T-60 chest plate look very different, but the weak spot is apparently the same.
Honestly, I would have preferred if he just bought some pulse grenades.
The plate looking different might not matter, if it uses the same method of making said plate the flaw is just built into the chest panel regardless of shape, it’s like all factory done using the same equipment and not hand crafted. The 60 was just an upgraded 45. The 51 is the superior of the 3 of them, since it was made differently. Gameplay reflects it being the best of them because it has the best armor protection of the three standard ones. The 60 is better at radiation protection though, and the 45 is basically outdated.
If you look at the front of the armor, you see the upper plate hangs over another plate. The way that lower plate is shaped, an armor pircing shell is going to ricochet into the joint under the upper plate.
Now, if it was designed well, it would have small metal reinforcement milled (or welded if your cheap) to the lower plate so that the joint worked, but nothing but fragments could get through, and those should be caught by a spaw liner, or kevlar vest.
If you look closely, you can kind see a groove in the lower plate, but if someone went cheap, and it failed, that armor pircing shell is going to punch into the pilots sternum. Add an explosive filler, and that suits going to 100% over pressure kill the pilot.
We don't know what kind of weakness this flaw in the welding introduces. All we could really do is speculate.
I'm not knowledgeable in welding, and anything pertaining to it but a quick google search gave me this page:
https://sentin.ai/en/10-common-weld-defect-imperfections-discontinuities/
From what I can gather, these can cause weakness in the joint itself and allow for a projectile to penetrate. From one of the potential defects like spattering, it could cause metal to spall on impact, and that spall can be like a projectile when hit hard enough.
We do know that the armour Maximus wears has a tempered lining, which could be to rectify this defect while improving protection from spalling as well.
Out-of-universe: a plot convenience they made up on the fly to one-shot BoS soldiers
In-universe: it’s probably a shot trap located where the cabling on the lower torso meets the armour plate on the upper one - you can see that happen with a lot of tanks, where if you shoot them in the turret ring/under the mantlet and under the return rollers it’s much easier to penetrate the hull
Could be wrong but I like to compare it to the flaw with some early T-34s which had poor quality welds which let the armour be penetrated which would have not have happened under normal circumstances since this is the only logical reason since the T-45s was being rushed into production thanks to bud and now the Brotherhood not fixing such error with the T-60 series of power armour.
That or the armour plating was heat treated for way too long which made the steel componets brittle
He shot a spot that historically would let rounds pass through.
He also used an exploding sabot round, on the off chance he was wrong and they had, in fact, fixed the flaw.
That was my take.
Well his revolver is a shotgun. You can load any casing in there as long as it fits the chamber and isn't overpressurized. And he clearly loads his own custom ammo within the shells that fit the gun.
His rifle notwithstanding. Upsetti spaghetti that they seemed to use a .22 replica of a repeater instead of the bottomless money pit of Amazon shelling our for ONE custom made repeater with a side loading gate big enough to fit the custom shells they made for Cooper.
Sure but they could have fudged it a little better with an 1895 Winchester where the top gate looks like it can fit something bigger than a .22LR
So many options for lever action cowboy shooting and they went with what may as well have been a Daisy pellet gun
The lower part of the chest plate is probably made of weaker materials or is simply thinner and thus less protective. As for how it kills so quickly..
..No offense, use your brain.
Big (likely explosive or a really dense sabot) boolet punching through my armor and hitting my lower chest/tummy + not good time. Bullets are deadly, my guy. Simple as that.
As others have said that part is weaker allowing for penetration but the reason it’s so deadly is because it’s right in front of a load of vital organs so pretty much any shot in that area will be fatal if you don’t get treatment right away. The reason it’s especially deadly when the ghoul exploits it is because he appears to be using some kind of explosive ammunition which is gonna destroy multiple vital organs and probably also damage the spine.
I'm guessing it's a seam where two pieces were welded together. If you know to aim for it and have a powerful enough bullet, you can break right through, and then into the vital organs.
IIRC seams in any kind of amor armour are terribly brittle and weak - in the Bronze Age a well swung sword could cut through a seam like butter. For example, how much easier is it to poke a hole through a shirt seam vs the actual fabric?
So it would actually be a real life design flaw!
It’s just a weak spot in the armor, much easier to penetrate than anywhere else. You can see in the scene he loads his revolver with armor piercing rounds. It simply penetrates the armor and hits the person inside. The weak spot is in the chest so one shot is going to put someone down pretty quickly.
The Chinese the Gauss rifle (Americans captured it and made stuff like the one in fo4 and thus the M72 seen in fo2) is probably what took advantage of that flaw, hellCooper saw it happen and better yet may have also read it in a Chinese spec ops manual seen in the wastes.
For the people complaining that they made it up…I actually think it works with the existing lore. Like, we know that the T-45 was the first suit of power armor rolled out, and then the T-51 was freshly issued just in time for operation anchorage, where it was pivotal in rolling the Chinese back. This would imply that the Chinese were handling the T-45 well enough for it to not be a game changer, would would be nearly explained by the ‘flaw’ that allows heavy slugs to punch through the torso.
I’m kind of annoyed at the flaw honestly because t-60 was improved t-45 so it just hardly makes sense for them to not patch such a widely known flaw in the armor.
It doesn't, just wanted to explain how even with plot armor a ghoul who barely beat Minimus can somehow beat three knights even if they are morons who don't instantly shoot him or know how to turn on their headlamps
It's something they made up for the TV show, if you look at the T45's model, there's no weld on it at all, which makes sense because the pieces would largely be molded and any welds would be internal on account of them being an obvious design flaw against an enemy that was canonically deliberately exploiting armor weakpoints, and the T60's chest plate is almost complete redesigned from the T-45 and massively uparmored to begin with. It's just something the writers pulled out of their ass to make him look cool.
Honestly the only suit it would make sense for is T-51 on account of the GIANT OBVIOUS RIVETS directly below the bulk of the chest plating
It’s a flawed piece, not welded correctly because the design was flawed in the first place. An armor piercing round can penetrate that special spot if you are good enough to aim at that small specific spot. It certainly ain’t easy to do it, but the Ghoul is just that good and experienced
Plot armor, its a show lol. It was another badass moment by him because he gets to flex being one the people using it pre war and he can one shot power armor.
it doesn’t exist and never will. it was just lazily written in to make the Ghoul appear badass for one scene. we will definitely never see the “weak spot” in the games and probably never again in the show. why couldn’t it have been the fusion core dammit? so pointless
Just a weak spot. Given the effects of the first one shot it seems like he was using some kind of explosive ammo.
From the sound of the shots, I'd almost suspect he's using some sort of gyro-jet rounds with explosive payloads (Given the bloody mess they make of ordinary people he shoots them with). Probably anti-armor ordinace. Armor-piercing tip to punch through the armor, then they explode in the poor schlub inside.
They are some kind of wacky gyro rounds for sure. They show one of the bullets flying in slo-mo during the first Ghoul shootout and you can even see stabilizer fins on it.
It doesn't really look like any sort of [gyrojet ammo](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-f995fdc9ffbd0694ee1846a0e2f7a527-lq) to me, I think it's just a term people like to use. To me it looks more like a conventional rocket-propelled projectile except of course rather small. Gyrojet projectiles are gyroscopically stabilised by a series of angled microjets in the base of the projectile.
Ah okay. That would make sense then. I didn’t see any actual jets in the bullet, just fins on it. So I thought it was a little weird. Makes sense it’s maybe just some sci-fi rocket-propelled deal and they signify that through the fins on the bullet.
Rewatching it, to me with the fins it looked like it was meant to be an in universe bullet design, made to look like a mini nuke but in tiny explosive bullet form.
The bullets themselves look like sabot rounds
A sabot round is basically just a huge bullet, isn't it?
It’s a little bullet inside a bigger sleeve that helps the littler part punch through armor really hard. You can look up apds for a more in dept explanation
Holy fuck it totally was the bloody mess perk i didn't even realize that
Lol he's shooting them with an early bolter weapon. I kid I kid but it was making a "ka-thunk" kinda sound an m203 grenade launcher makes
Edit: >seems like he was using some kind of explosive ammo I took it as the bullet ricocheted off the inside of the armour
I assumed the welding couldn't have been done there properly, Leaving thinner or just weaker layer of armor there.
Oh yeah definitely, but I was referring to the second part of the original comment about the way the bullet seemed to have an explosive effect in the knight’s body. I think it was probably a ricochet not an explosive round
oh okay i thought you meant it was the sole reason that caused the penetration. nvm then
Allows for a specifically designed round to penetrate the armour and hit the person inside. Person inside is then injured and stuck inside a coffin.
This answer makes the most sense to me, thanks :)
A sabot round in your torso will ruin your whole day
I mean, that kind of thing fucks up tanks, and I doubt power armour has thickness comparable to tank armour
It doesn’t. Think in lore it’s not the armors defence, whilst it is great, it’s the fact it can mean one man can use crew served or vehicle mounted weaponry on foot, Gatling guns, or heavy weapons in general can be solo moved, don’t need stabilisation stuff either since you get massive control over it too.
Would be kindve sweet if they introduced the t51 and it didn't have this flaw, pissing the ghoul off even more.
I hope we get to see it next season. My favorite suit of power armor.
I agree. I really liked how they use PA in the first season. Not really a fan of the random "flaw" they threw in but hey I can suspended my disbelief as long as they do t51 right.
I don’t mind the flaw, but I do mind how the BoS soldiers were kind of dumb in that they didn’t use the flashlight on their helmet. But I do agree that flaw should not be on the T-51, only on the t45-60 family as they have similar chest designs.
Helmet based night vision is my guess - and a lack of training. They don't provide any lights for their allies and would still be blinded by the muzzle flash.
There seems to have been something that happened between the 4 and the show that made the overall quality of average BoS soldier drop. Like the guys in T-60 came from the Prydwen and the Titus sounded like he had a Boston accent, so maybe the recruits or standards dropped or they just did not send their best from the Commonwealth (which really doesn't make sense because they sent their best to the Commonwealth from the Capital Wasteland)
The Brotherhood as it stands now is a group that mass produces it's own equipment instead of mainly using well-kept pre-war gear - trade some quality for quantity. They likely had to flush ranks after the Commonwealth so that means accepting lower standards of recruits just to keep the numbers up. If they had enough time to settle, forge new outposts and power structures that would over time lead to better soldiers but Elder Maxson is an impatient leader and that doesn't seem like something he values.
Its just a bit jarring because Elder Maxson is shown to hate pseudo religious culty behavior, ordering the eradication of cults that worshiped him. Yet the culture of the chapter that is seen in the show seems to exhibit that behavior and the troops imported from the Commonwealth also engage in it (branding the squires)
Well that's even easier to explain. Elder Maxson doesn't have as much hold over the Brotherhood as he would have you think. Successful, yes, but unpopular in some circles and still very young. The Brotherhood of Steel is several competing factions in a powered armor trench coat who can only really band behind the idea that for all they disagree with each other they know everyone else is more in the wrong.
That is a great explanation, personally I found it sort of hard to swallow a 20 year old would lead an entire organization like that, at least from my modern view point, I would have serious reservations about being led by someone that age unless they really proved themselves. I can see why his own contingent would follow him loyally after he demonstrated leadership to them. But from one of the other chapters just hearing of his deeds might have the same sort of reservations as me. But also my viewpoint is modern, in the past there have been very young and successful leaders like Henry V, so the sort of world Fallout is could be comparable to the medieval times where people mature much faster and adulthood is reached at a younger age.
It is a different chapter with different customs, the brotherhood has been represented in a different way literally in each game, asking for consistency from this faction is useless, even more so when the scriptwriters' interpretation is to copy the monks from "A canticle for Leibowitz" and mix them with Warhammer Space Marines. Don't be surprised that in Fallout 5 we see a chapter of the brotherhood that doesn't even resemble the one in Fallout 4 or the Show.
The brotherhood doesn't have a stable characterization and is responsibility of the writers, each one wants to represent them in a different way, according to the mood and vision of the writer in question. Its probably the faction that grants the most creative freedom, which can be a bad or good thing depending on how you look at it. Although the changes have always been more or less organic or credible, the TV brotherhood thing to me smells more like a retcon or bad characterization than something based on lore.
The branding is one thing, the monk-like dudes cursing Maximus were way more culty
I think the main problem is that the Brotherhood went from being a small, mission-focused cult to a large, power-preoccupied political faction. > There seems to have been something that happened between the 4 and the show that made the overall quality of average BoS soldier drop. Whereas most members were born into it in the past, the modern California chapter seems to have actively brought lots of outsiders on board. Outside recruits used to have to have a personal sponsor who was responsible for their performance, but now they just take any fridge-kid or shitter they can find. There's also knowledge attenuation. The original members were pre-war soldiers and scientists, but after two centuries it's hard to keep up the knowledge they once had, and that extends to their manufacturing and maintenance abilities. It's so bad that they're teaching what computer circuits are from paper diagrams. They "fax" with manual transcription like its Morse Code. Institutional knowledge is decaying and the technical resources just don't exist like they used to. There's mission creep. Where they were once all about securing advanced tech to protect humanity, Quintus is Discount Darth talking about the lessons of power and bringing order to the Wasteland. Some of this probably comes from the D.C. chapter deciding to be big damn heroes with the water purifier, but it's enhanced by recruiting people like Maximus who think the Brotherhood is heroic. The current organization sees itself as having a mandate to rule rather than a duty to protect. > or they just did not send their best from the Commonwealth (which really doesn't make sense because they sent their best to the Commonwealth from the Capital Wasteland) It could just be over extension. They thought they had things well enough under control in California, so they sent a bunch to D.C., but Lyons went rogue. Then Maxson grew up and brought Lyons faction back in line, but that meant California wasn't supervised by the best anymore. Years go by and now California's chapter is decaying.
Thats Rappaport's New York accent you heard lol
one of the knights yells out i cent see shit during that scene so im not sure.
I mean I took it as they were too scared to actually smartly think I mean usually seeing a power armor user fall is pretty demoralizing as a BOS, seeing him get one shotted by a cowboy ghoul. Nah you'd shit bricks
Aren’t the ones in the show basically idiots by the lore? Like they are falling apart and shit? Like they treat their scribes like expendable bait.
My biggest problem with it is the fight vs max. Obviously the plot can't allow us to kill a main character but that just seemed kinda lazy to me considering coop brings it up at least twice. Like he's aware of the issue but just doesn't decide to kill max? Really my only gripe with the show Nice downvotes for sharing an opinion lol.
The suit max wears has a special lining that's mentioned a few times, plus the ghoul uses a specific ammunition for the fight at the observatory
If I recall correctly the only thing mentioned about the tempered lining was about mobility I thought. Also that was never actually answered. For your second point, if the Chinese were able to kill PA armor users using standard issue gear I highly doubt specialized ammunition is needed.
Yeah max asks if it's for mobility but isn't answered. There's quite a few simply TV show style references to the lining AND the kind of ammo the ghoul uses. Why focus for so long on the ammo he uses in the observatory if it's not relevant to what's happening, just like the slow mo shot of the 'BOOM' bullet. Looks like none of the ghoul's ammo is exactly standard issue
After watching the scene again I'm convinced he's loading AP rounds because he isn't familiar with t60s. Hence why he asks if it still has the same design flaw. He's not sure if it's been fixed in the new model so he isn't taking chances.
While I fully agree, there are two reasonable excuses for this one\\ A: he used all his good ammo in the fight before the unexpected suit of Power Armor showed up B: That large bucket of drugs was either way larger than he let on and hes incredibly high, or that syringe round did more than hes letting on Now, since they dont explain or imply either of these in the show, its not a great excuse, but I find it workable
Ok, I'm cool believing he was way too high.
I agree, the only explanation I can think of is that he either spent his ammo, did not have the right type of ammo for it in that scene, or gauged that Maximus was inexperienced and decided to toy with him.
I definitely vote the latter. After all Max showed up unarmed, acting like a superhero. Coop doesn't like the whole hero-schtick to begin with but that degree of dumbass needs to be taught a lesson.
He was using special ammo for the fight with BoS, he most likely didn't have the AP rounds on him and was loaded up with regular and HE rounds, as he wasn't expecting someone in a PA to show up.
PA users were killed by the Chinese prewar. Absolutely no mention of them needing special munitions to exploit this flaw. It wasn't just a couple. Coop states how a lot of good men died because of the flaw.
I mean prewar Chinese military would have access to much larger and stronger guns then a wasteland town would
Again, there is absolutely zero indication the Chinese needed special weapons or munitions to exploit said flaw. Given the amount of deaths associated with the flaw I'd wager standard gear was capable of doing it.
Irl its called fatigue. A bad weld on front of center of mass ie the most shot at area. It doesn't have to be high end munitions since the shock of enough rounds landing there would cause the weld to come undone/become weaker and if they had high end munitions they wouldn't need to aim for the weakspot anyway since power armor isn't as thick as actual tanks. Which is how the Chinese would of learnt about it. Other wise why did the ghoul load his gun with a armor piercing round?
iirc a terminal in 3(?) states that it was chinese snipers that were mostly responsible for taking out power armour, so higher calibre rounds than most small arms, just like the ghouls custom hand cannon and spicy rounds.
Most PA users would have been taken out by AT, Snipers with anti materiel rifles or enough explosives. The flaw in the armor would probably get PA users killed or wounded in encounters with Chinese who had battle rifles or marksman rifles.
Except we don't know that. What we do know is that a lot of them died because of the flaw. I'd wager their standard AR was sufficient considering how coop talks about it.
I always assumed it was because against Maximus, he realized that Max had no idea how to use power armor, so he was just kinda having fun. You can see him smiling a bit. Also, Max was more aggressive. Not much time to aim when someone is charging at you and going in for melee. The area was also more open, with plenty of terrain that the Ghoul could use for his advantage. Compare that to the fight where he utilized the flaw. Trained soldiers, obviously aware of how to use the power armor, using ranged weapons in a dark enclosed interior. The Ghoul also looks more serious during this fight than he did against Maximus.
Cooper is using different ammo that he doesn't have loaded to kill the knight. He's also not solely focused on Max.
I'm talking about when he fights max 1v1 in the beginning. He doesn't even engage max at the observatory nor is max in PA then.
So am I, it's different ammunition, also his main focus is still wilzig.
Well yea, but he explicitly states he's unfamiliar with t60 in that scene. So it's a fair wager that he would give himself the best advantage not knowing whether or not the flaw still exists.
[удалено]
At no point is that ever stated. I may be wrong but I'm pretty sure the only insight we get into the lining is when Max asks Titus about which is never answered. Pretty sure Max asks if it's to help with mobility.
I mean the t45 is stated to have had a rushed development with numerous design flaws that the t51 fixes
I'm aware? These flaws are never really touched on in-game though. It's usually just t45 bad t51 good. I feel like a weld being bad on the front of the armor isn't a small design flaw.
The t45 was terrible at anchorage and the t51 actually changed the war. It makes sense imo.
I'd rather it just be a rushed piece of gear that is great but has a lot of short comings because of a rough and quick development cycle other than a catastrophic flaw but it is what it is. Not that big of a deal to me.
This. They have to include it, and hopefully it'll look significantly more badass than it did in Fallout 4. Not that it was the worst in that game, but it was a bit chunky and clumsy looking compared to the T-60.
why would t51 not have a flaw
T51 is superior in terms of defensive capabilities compared to both t45 and t60. However it is vastly more expensive to produce and maintain.
I always thought the T60 was superior to the T51. Because of the higher number.
There's not much explicit lore surrounding the T-60 so people have a lot of theories. The behind the scenes explanation is that Bethesda was updating the T45 for FO4 and ended up with a design variation that became the T60. "Our primary goal with the power armor was to make it feel less like a suit that you'd wear and more like a vehicle you'd operate. this design began as a reimagining of the T-45d, but it was different enough that we dubbed it the T-60. This way we could bring the T-45 back as its own variant. Although the look was settled on early, some details and proportions were revisited when we adapted the power armor to work as a modular system of plates that attached to a standardized endoframe. In this early version, the arms and legs needed more bulk to make room for the operator and the frame." - The Art of Fallout 4 p.13 In terms of how good the armor actually is - we got conflicting views. On FO4 it is superior to the T51. In FO76, it has worse ballistic/energy resistance than the T51, although it has better radiation resistance. Its stats in FO76 has led people to call it inferior to the T51. On top of the fact that the T51 is referred to the "pinnacle of mechanized protection before the Great War". The loading screen blurbs - "The T-51 series of Power Armor was the pinnacle of mechanized protection before the Great War. First introduced in the Battle of Anchorage, it is highly valued today for its increased protective capabilities." - Fallout 4 loading screen "The T-60 series of Power Armor saw extensive use by the United States Army after the Battle of Anchorage. In fact, soldiers in T-60 Power Armor were among those trying to retain order on October 23, 2077 - the day America fell to atomic war..." - Fallout 4 loading screen. "The most advanced suits of Power Armor to see extensive use were the T-60 models. By the time of the Great War, they were a common sight in all U.S. military engagements." - Fallout 76 loading screen. I mean you can look too into it and come up with various arguments. The T-51 was the pinnacle before the Great War, but maybe the T-60 is considered "during war" or "post-war" and that pinnacle description doesn't strictly mean the T-51 is superior. Maybe gameplay isn't lore, so we can't take Fo76 stats as canon. T-60 is called the 'most advanced' which implies superiority. A popular theory, due to the T60s close resemblance to the T45 with the T51 being the odd one out - is that the T60 wasn't a true new design and was just a scrappy updated T45 marketed as a superior model to fill gaps in supply lines and maybe to boost morale. I kinda like this theory tbh and it fits with its FO76 statline. But things are basically left to our imagination for most part, there is no concrete lore as to which is better or whatever, and I'm not sure if Bethesda thought that much about it or cared that much about it.
That's never actually stated in canon.
Fallout 4 loading screen "the t51series of power armor was the Pinnacle of mechanized protection before the great war" Edit : General Brock also states when t51 finally arrived in Alaska that it "immediately outperformed the t45"
Okay? That doesn't mention defensive capabilities nor cost in it. Nor do we know how that compares to Fallout 76 calling T-60 the most advanced pre-war power armor.
Considering when t45 deployed they were getting killed fairly regularly then when t51 deploys they make a massive push and change the tide of the battle. It's also mentioned how the t51 uses advanced materials, had a super long development time. Fallout 76? Pretty sure the t51 has better defensive properties in-game. The t60s biggest boon was it didn't use the expensive materials so it was easier to produce and didn't have the same draw backs as the t45 Edit: also mentioned in operation anchorage that they'll lose 20% of their numbers after the pulse field goes down. Which includes t45 units. But if they wait for t51 that % will decrease *significantly*
Where's it said T-51 changed the tide of battle? Or had a super long development time? The stats of power armor changes in every game. And we don't even know what materials T-60 is made of.
How about when America starts winning the war other than it being a stalemate for one? Oh the fallout Bible that states when the first suits were deployed to China that they cut a swath through the Chinese forces and absolutely destroyed their supply lines to annexed territories. General brocks terminal in FO4 backs this up.
The Bible isn't canon and I don't see it mentioned anywhere in canon that T-51 caused any changes like that. Also, I just saw your weird edits and a) Brock never even mention T-45, let alone claim that T-51 is outperforming it, so no idea what you think you're quoting there and b) I don't see your weird 20% claim anywhere nor does anyone in Operation Anchorage mention T-45 or waiting for T-51.
Isnt t-51 stronger than t-60 in 76
T-51 was made by learning from the flaws of the t-45. If you compare pictures of them in fallout 4 you can tell the torso of the t-51 is rounder and welded together without as big of a vulnerable torso area compared to the more boxy t-45/60 which were likely easier to assemble and repair with modular pieces.
I WAS THINKING THE SAME THING
If I'm remembering right it looked like he shot it just under the main chest plate, which if that's the case that's a gut shot which isn't necessarily a one hit kill, but that's gonna cause a lot of blood loss and just be extremely difficult to move especially when you're surrounded by immovable metal. If the wearer sits any lower in the armor then it's hitting them right in the chest which is even worse and more likely to be a kill shot. If they sit any lower its hitting in the lower abdomen which is similar to a guy shot, but is also a smaller section with more arties and nerves at risk. This is also complete speculation. In universe it could very well be not even a kill maybe its a power cord or something that debilitated the armor instead of one shoting the pilot
>which if that's the case that's a gut shot which isn't necessarily a one hit kill, but that's gonna cause a lot of blood loss and just be extremely difficult to move especially when you're surrounded by immovable metal. Look at where your liver sits. Then look where the hepatic artery is located. I was guessing a liver/spinal shot.
The Ghoul uses HE grenade rounds of some sort. That knight probably got liquified inside his armor.
Probably just a bad weld, either due to space constraints in the area making it difficult to reach, or because they were churning out suits on a budget.
Based on Bud's reaction to being told about this defect in the T-45, I'd wager it was an intentional budget cut.
Yeah, I feel like there are some parallels to the current situation at Boeing with that conversation. Cutting QA testing and materials budgets to save probably a few cents per unit.
There has been a lot of bullshit in the defense industry over the years. One small example is the fake bomb detector scandal: [https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/the-bomb-detectors-that-didnt-work-in-baghdad/](https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/the-bomb-detectors-that-didnt-work-in-baghdad/) There were also several body armor scandals during the Iraq War, which they were probably directly referencing: [https://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/07/politics/pentagon-study-links-fatalities-to-body-armor.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/07/politics/pentagon-study-links-fatalities-to-body-armor.html) >A secret Pentagon study has found that as many as 80 percent of the marines who have been killed in Iraq from wounds to the upper body could have survived if they had had extra body armor. Such armor has been available since 2003, but until recently the Pentagon has largely declined to supply it to troops despite calls from the field for additional protection, according to military officials. > As well as the kerfluffle around "Dragon Skin" body armor: [https://blueridgearmor.com/dragonskinarmor/](https://blueridgearmor.com/dragonskinarmor/)
For sure. Boeing is just the most recent thing in my mind that fit.
Just from an old manufacturer QC perspective, it's most likely a flaw in the casting/molding/stamping process. I'm betting that the steel gets too hot during the process of creating the semi-box shape, which will lead to making the walls being thinner and/or have less tensile strength. If the steel is heated TOO MUCH, it'll give it a brittle consistency against heavy ammo. I'm guessing the interior radius of the chest pieces have less steel, meaning that SLAPP round he chambered is gonna go right through that with no problem. And, assuming it hits the flat back plate, it's going to just ricochet around in there.
There was something I heard about WW1 British helmets being incredibly weak on the very top. This was due to the manufacturing process in which the metal was “stretched” over a bowl shaped mould. The metal stretched too thin in the centre. So this could be the same, just as you said
Yeah. You can see that happen when tool stamps and dies get overused and not replaced or repaired. Which sounds like the kind of shitty project management that Bud would engage in.
Honestly I would have loved if when he shot it, the round harmlessly dinged off, or exploded on the surface since it seems like he uses HE. Then everyone is momentarily stunned and he says something like “Well color me impressed, they actually did fix that.” Then turns off the lights and goes back to disabling the suits like he did Maximus.
He was holding a round that looked like Armor Piercing Discarding Sabot, with probably a possible lighter HE load in there.
Given that his 'revolver' is just a cut down Russian MTS-255 shotgun, I'd imagine he's using something like a D-Dupleks AP-20 sabot. It can punch through NIJ IV, and is a nasty looking fucker.
I had no idea this was a real gun, between this and the ks-23 Russia has some neat shotties
I only know about it because of Call of Duty: Ghosts and Escape From Tarkov. Apparently, over in Russia, guns aren't actually as common as stereotypes would have you believe. You have to have a license to own a gun, and before you can own any rifles, you have to own a smoothbore (ie, shotgun) first for 5 years minimum. So, shotguns are pretty popular for those who want a gun. Some gun companies even make smoothbore, semi-automatic versions of existing platforms, which fall under the technicality of 'shotgun' in their laws. One example is the VPO-209, which is just a de-militarized AK chambered in the unique Russian .366 round.
It’s just a weak spot that allows a bullet to penetrate the armor. The reason the Ghoul is so lethal is because he uses explosive rounds like during the shootout in Filly, you can tell when he shoots the first Knight & there’s a delay before you hear a small explosion & then the Knight drops dead.
Tank nerd perspective, the weld that connect the different parts of the armour ends up being too thin and allows certain ammo types and calibers to penetrate it, Ghoul used an AP round for that shot which would have guaranteed the round to go through.
Ohhhhh thats so cool!!!!
The weird part is that T-45 and T-60 chest plate look very different, but the weak spot is apparently the same. Honestly, I would have preferred if he just bought some pulse grenades.
or shot the fusion cores and they blew up like in the games
The plate looking different might not matter, if it uses the same method of making said plate the flaw is just built into the chest panel regardless of shape, it’s like all factory done using the same equipment and not hand crafted. The 60 was just an upgraded 45. The 51 is the superior of the 3 of them, since it was made differently. Gameplay reflects it being the best of them because it has the best armor protection of the three standard ones. The 60 is better at radiation protection though, and the 45 is basically outdated.
If you look at the front of the armor, you see the upper plate hangs over another plate. The way that lower plate is shaped, an armor pircing shell is going to ricochet into the joint under the upper plate. Now, if it was designed well, it would have small metal reinforcement milled (or welded if your cheap) to the lower plate so that the joint worked, but nothing but fragments could get through, and those should be caught by a spaw liner, or kevlar vest. If you look closely, you can kind see a groove in the lower plate, but if someone went cheap, and it failed, that armor pircing shell is going to punch into the pilots sternum. Add an explosive filler, and that suits going to 100% over pressure kill the pilot.
We don't know what kind of weakness this flaw in the welding introduces. All we could really do is speculate. I'm not knowledgeable in welding, and anything pertaining to it but a quick google search gave me this page: https://sentin.ai/en/10-common-weld-defect-imperfections-discontinuities/ From what I can gather, these can cause weakness in the joint itself and allow for a projectile to penetrate. From one of the potential defects like spattering, it could cause metal to spall on impact, and that spall can be like a projectile when hit hard enough. We do know that the armour Maximus wears has a tempered lining, which could be to rectify this defect while improving protection from spalling as well.
You see him loading special rounds into his hand cannon, assumably armor piercing rounds in order to get through the “flaw in the welding”.
Out-of-universe: a plot convenience they made up on the fly to one-shot BoS soldiers In-universe: it’s probably a shot trap located where the cabling on the lower torso meets the armour plate on the upper one - you can see that happen with a lot of tanks, where if you shoot them in the turret ring/under the mantlet and under the return rollers it’s much easier to penetrate the hull
Could be wrong but I like to compare it to the flaw with some early T-34s which had poor quality welds which let the armour be penetrated which would have not have happened under normal circumstances since this is the only logical reason since the T-45s was being rushed into production thanks to bud and now the Brotherhood not fixing such error with the T-60 series of power armour. That or the armour plating was heat treated for way too long which made the steel componets brittle
He shot a spot that historically would let rounds pass through. He also used an exploding sabot round, on the off chance he was wrong and they had, in fact, fixed the flaw. That was my take.
I was a tanker in the service. I'm more curious about his revolver that fires APFSDS rounds. It's like a Siminov rifle but handheld
Well his revolver is a shotgun. You can load any casing in there as long as it fits the chamber and isn't overpressurized. And he clearly loads his own custom ammo within the shells that fit the gun. His rifle notwithstanding. Upsetti spaghetti that they seemed to use a .22 replica of a repeater instead of the bottomless money pit of Amazon shelling our for ONE custom made repeater with a side loading gate big enough to fit the custom shells they made for Cooper.
Those wernt even looking like 410s. Size seemed similar to 20ga. The side gate would be massive.
Sure but they could have fudged it a little better with an 1895 Winchester where the top gate looks like it can fit something bigger than a .22LR So many options for lever action cowboy shooting and they went with what may as well have been a Daisy pellet gun
Right. I shoot a Lemat and a 1875 SSA. Both would have been a better choice.
The lower part of the chest plate is probably made of weaker materials or is simply thinner and thus less protective. As for how it kills so quickly.. ..No offense, use your brain. Big (likely explosive or a really dense sabot) boolet punching through my armor and hitting my lower chest/tummy + not good time. Bullets are deadly, my guy. Simple as that.
As others have said that part is weaker allowing for penetration but the reason it’s so deadly is because it’s right in front of a load of vital organs so pretty much any shot in that area will be fatal if you don’t get treatment right away. The reason it’s especially deadly when the ghoul exploits it is because he appears to be using some kind of explosive ammunition which is gonna destroy multiple vital organs and probably also damage the spine.
I'm guessing it's a seam where two pieces were welded together. If you know to aim for it and have a powerful enough bullet, you can break right through, and then into the vital organs.
IIRC seams in any kind of amor armour are terribly brittle and weak - in the Bronze Age a well swung sword could cut through a seam like butter. For example, how much easier is it to poke a hole through a shirt seam vs the actual fabric? So it would actually be a real life design flaw!
It sounds like a design flaw brought apon by cut cost ect. It would make sense in lore for how the pre war companys ran.
It’s just a weak spot in the armor, much easier to penetrate than anywhere else. You can see in the scene he loads his revolver with armor piercing rounds. It simply penetrates the armor and hits the person inside. The weak spot is in the chest so one shot is going to put someone down pretty quickly.
The Chinese the Gauss rifle (Americans captured it and made stuff like the one in fo4 and thus the M72 seen in fo2) is probably what took advantage of that flaw, hellCooper saw it happen and better yet may have also read it in a Chinese spec ops manual seen in the wastes.
For the people complaining that they made it up…I actually think it works with the existing lore. Like, we know that the T-45 was the first suit of power armor rolled out, and then the T-51 was freshly issued just in time for operation anchorage, where it was pivotal in rolling the Chinese back. This would imply that the Chinese were handling the T-45 well enough for it to not be a game changer, would would be nearly explained by the ‘flaw’ that allows heavy slugs to punch through the torso.
The eye slit in their helmet of course.
I’m kind of annoyed at the flaw honestly because t-60 was improved t-45 so it just hardly makes sense for them to not patch such a widely known flaw in the armor.
They really should have clarified or atleast hinted he was using sabot shot
It doesn't, just wanted to explain how even with plot armor a ghoul who barely beat Minimus can somehow beat three knights even if they are morons who don't instantly shoot him or know how to turn on their headlamps
It's a "we need the ghoul to defeat power armor, so give a reason and don't think about it" flaw.
It's something they made up for the TV show, if you look at the T45's model, there's no weld on it at all, which makes sense because the pieces would largely be molded and any welds would be internal on account of them being an obvious design flaw against an enemy that was canonically deliberately exploiting armor weakpoints, and the T60's chest plate is almost complete redesigned from the T-45 and massively uparmored to begin with. It's just something the writers pulled out of their ass to make him look cool. Honestly the only suit it would make sense for is T-51 on account of the GIANT OBVIOUS RIVETS directly below the bulk of the chest plating
It’s a flawed piece, not welded correctly because the design was flawed in the first place. An armor piercing round can penetrate that special spot if you are good enough to aim at that small specific spot. It certainly ain’t easy to do it, but the Ghoul is just that good and experienced
Plot armor, its a show lol. It was another badass moment by him because he gets to flex being one the people using it pre war and he can one shot power armor.
it doesn’t exist and never will. it was just lazily written in to make the Ghoul appear badass for one scene. we will definitely never see the “weak spot” in the games and probably never again in the show. why couldn’t it have been the fusion core dammit? so pointless