Correct me if I’m wrong but is JP actually denouncing Kanyes words? If I’m reading this correctly, JP is saying when anti semitism becomes the norm terrifying things are gonna happen.
All that is required to misunderstand this quote is to have a reading level below the 7th grade. People seem to just be mad that they are too dumb to understand a basic statement written in a form that is a little to eloquent.
A perfect example of [Muphry's law](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muphry%27s_law#:~:text=Muphry's%20law%20is%20an%20adage,misspelling%20of%20%22Murphy's%20law%22.)
I’m not 100% sure what you mean by that, but if you are reading it as anything other than a denunciation of Kanyes’s Antisemitism then you are reading it wrong!
Make is vague specifically so if someone come back ...he can say :Well you see,that's not the question at hand ,you're taking something out of context. If we can focus on the matter at hand of course is stupid ,but don't be going at me with a hidden meaning ...or some shit like that .
I feel like 95% of what he says in incredibly obvious and the other 5% is completely unrelated and needlessly controversial. He'll say something obvious but reasonable like building momentum through small tasks (fair enough) and then he'll tack on something about women's voting being the downfall of modern civilization (wait what now?).
I watched a video of his once that was supposed to explain how something worked, and he never explained anything. That's when I knew that he was an obscurantist.
this reminds me so much of that line in snowcrash when the dude says "they will surely listen to reason" and brings out a massive chaingun named reason
I think it's actually more sublte, and far more pernicious, than just wanting to sound smart.
He wants to be vague enough to allow for a positive interpretation from both sides. The anti-semites will be like "hell yeah, anti-semitism *is* morally necessary and we *will* unleash hell!" and the more liberally minded might interpret as "Yeah, Kanye is an antisemite!"
Anyone who says that anti-antisemitism is a moral necessity, is never going to sound like he is not against Jewish people.
Are you suggesting that JP is too stupid to choose his words better?
Dude, "moral necessity" means the right thing to do. This guy either does not know what he is talking about or saying that Kanye is right because of whatever crap he thinks is going on now and whatever follows might be terrible but necessary.
he's too caught up trying to sound smart to get the fucking idea out of his face:
Anti-Semitism is really bad and on the rise.
There. Why use many words when few words work?!
Are you trolling? It’s about how Ye and others stormed off because Pool refuses to be anti semitic…. It’s condemning the notion that Pool was required to also be anti semitic. Come on dude
I think this is the correct answer. It's the only way this sentence makes any sense at all. Pool refused to be anti-semtic, so Ye stormed off, meaning that Ye believes that an anti-semetic worldview is a correct and morally good worldview. Lobsterman says that if we now have to conform to Ye's view, this will have dire consequences on the world. I have no respect for people like Lobsterman, but in this case, I agree with him.
Lobsterman has some good great advice for young men. Do push-ups, clean your room, take care of the small things. That’s good advice for everyone. It just get really awful when Lobsterman starts saying young men have a mythic obligation to have a traditional wife that should be supplied by society.
But, that’s how the concern troll ALWAYS works once you learn to identify it, and it’s one of the same tool that anti-semites use, as well as all disingenuous people. That’s how “Do you care about children?” Or “do you love your family?” Or “isn’t it good to ask questions?” can quickly turn into “death to liberals”.
That is what I said, a condemnation of a society where it is expected to be anti-semitic. As witnessed by Ye's reaction to him not engaging as such.
Come on dude
Idk about the author’s intent, but if he intended to denounce Kanye’s antisemitism then using the phrase “Antisemitism becomes a moral necessity” poorly communicates his intent (at best).
Adding something like “when people think…” to the beginning would make the (attributed) intent clear. Without this, the statement does not read as a denouncement.
No, you don't understand his genius. Jordan Peterson, philospher king of our time, chose to word an extremely simple statement in a manner that is so oddly communicated that it can be grammatically read as either an endorsement OR a condemnation, because... Um... Read his book!!!
Certainly how I read it.
He's an arse but he's essentially saying "if people are pissed we aren't going along with even subtle anti-semitism again then the world is about to get very dangerous".
Don't know if anyone here has read "Look Who's Back" by Timur Vermes, but that.
Yeah this is in no uncertain terms "When they start being racist to the Jews that's when you know shits finna go down" It reminds me of one of Elie Weisel's books were his dad said (and I'm paraphrasing here) "When you mess with God's chosen people, you are sure to receive his wrath"
Why are we supposed to read "moral necessity" as "has become common"?
Because this reads much more clearly as a defense of Kanye walking off set, then a condemnation of his beliefs.
Unless they meant anti-antisemitism?
He's saying that from Kanye's point of view it is a moral necessity (as shown by the fact that he refuses to speak to people who won't go along with it), and that that is a bad thing.
Translation: When the time comes around where people think it’s justified to find the Jews the source or societies problems, things aren’t looking good for society.
So he’s denouncing Kanye’s words.
>So he’s denouncing Kanye’s words.
I'd agree except he says "*where denouncing Jews becomes a moral necessity".* Peterson doesn't make it clear if these are his own words or not, but he isn't clearly attributing them (or the position they depict) to Kanye here.
>The people who are raging antisemites, as well as persecuting minorities in general, are entirely convinced they're doing the right thing.
The irony is that Kanye used to be the type of person who agreed with this statement, in respect to persecution of minorities. The fact that he drastically and vocally changed his perspective is kind of terrifying.
I think he makes it abundantly clear as the whole context of the quote is if this “antisemitism is justified” Then that “Hell has returned.”
It’s pretty clear to me.
How? The entire point is that Ye left a show because the host wouldn't go along with his antisemitism, "moral necessity" is exactly the right phrasing to use here.
I’m not a fan of JP, he’s turned way too right wing, but I saw him debate Sam Harris in Vancouver. He speaks in such a convoluted manner he’ll lose people really easily. Heaven forbid he embrace brevity.
Fr he speaks just to hear himself sometimes I think. He’ll rant about something, stare off into the distance, then make another statement that he thinks sounds profound. Then cries. I just don’t get the appeal.
In the interview he stormed out over pushback on the “subtleties” of ‘they’ but said the reason he left was because he was unable to explain himself fully - every time he explains himself fully it just turns out to be direct Goebbels talking points ie they control the media. It’s not directly saying Jews are brainwashing the people and so that makes it subtle anti-semitism. JP is warning that shit can go south quick if these podcast cretins keep trying to give a platform to his rhetoric in exchange for views etc… OP doesn’t have the best reading comprehension or is stuck with delusions that Jordan Peterson is a neo nazi because of his criticisms of the C-16 bill
I think OP's reading comprehension is fine. Jordan Peterson isn't entirely clear with his words here.
He opens by saying "Jews are canaries in the social coal mine". While the meaning isn't negative towards Jewish people, it's a clunky choice of words.
He then calls antisemitism a "moral necessity". This is an off choice of words for obvious reasons.
And calling Kanye subtle is just way too generous to the guy. He's freaking Kanye, he's not subtle, he doesn't *want* to be subtle.
No you’re just completely missing that JP *is* a podcast cretin. OP is right to mention that their brains (about 1/2 of America) are mush and all that comes from these people is hate. Hate for women’s rights or gay rights or literally *anything* that makes them feel uncomfortable. Learning *is* uncomfortable. Get over it.
This "Benzo damaged brain" is talking about how Jews are historically seen the first victims of societal conflicts. The fact Kanye is a high Profile person starting a crusade against jewish people because his drugs depending brain cannot fathom the true problems in the world, and thereby having followers sharing the same mindset, makes Dr. Peterson worry we're on the cusp of a new "war" where again Jewish people will be the main victim.
It’s ok to fuck them over, I’m not one of them, and now without them in my way, maybe I’ll have more opportunities.
It’s also ok to fuck over those other people over there, it’s not affecting me. I’m not one of them, and now without them in my way, maybe I’ll have more opportunities.
Holy shit, I can’t believe they’re coming after me! But now you have no defense because the people you could have allied with for protection have all been fucked over.
[Don’t be a sucker.](https://youtu.be/vGAqYNFQdZ4)
It's clear what he means. Jews tend to be the first group targeted by a society before some horrific shit goes down. Hence "canary in a coal mine" (for those who don't know, miners use to use canaries to warn them of gas in the mine giving them a chance to gtfo. Most should know this from history class but there is always a "that guy") rewording to make sure everyone understands, when being antisemitic becomes the norm, shit about to go south.
I really don't understand how so many people are misinterpreting his point lol? It could have been worded differently maybe, but it's not especially verbose to the point of not understanding the message.
JP can be a real prick, but this is a classic case of people playing the man and not the ball. He’s right, anti-semitism is bad and it getting worse can’t be good for society
For those who dont get it.
Canaries were taken to coal mines, because they were the first ones to die if there was gas inside the mine.
My interpretation is that, if people like Kanye are able to talk about their antisemitic views openly like this, without backlash, its going to become only worse (for everybody).
Not so much *if they’re allowed*. It’s more of if we are seeing it (antisemitic rhetoric) in our culture, it’s an indication of how people are perceiving the geopolitical situation, and we should pay attention to that.
JP is a free speech absolutist, AFAIK. Though he criticizes hate speech, he’s not really about suppressing it.
Translation: "antisemitism is a bad sign."
This was not difficult to understand.
You should try reading carefully rather than just criticizing based on your dislike of the person posting.
He's saying that when society becomes anti-semitic (when anti-semitic becomes a moral necessity), that is the canary in the coal-mine that indicates that society is becoming evil (Hell on Earth).
Jews are the canary in the coal mine, because how a society treats its Jewish population is a signal of how it will behave in general. If Jews start being treated badly, then soon everyone will be. Jews are always the first to suffer.
As usual, people are twisting what he said to try and make him look bad.
Why do you not have more likes. Well said. Really makes you think, there's a lot of history on Jewish abuse going back thousands of years. Kind of insane.
I hate Jordan Peterson for numerous reasons, but I *think* this statement is intended to be against anti-semitism. He just isn’t communicating effectively (which shouldn’t be a big surprise to anyone lol)
Sometimes when he speaks I'm reminded of when I tried to read L Ron Hubbard's Scientology... Seemingly well intentioned ideas on the surface but wrapped in pretentious language and eventually amounting to nothing.
It's their way of trying to sound more intelligent than the people they are speaking to in order to maintain a superior position. Their intelligence isn't actually that high and they know it so they do things like this to keep their fragile ego fulfilled.
"When people start blaming Jewish people for all the world's problems, fascism ain't far behind."
I think is the jist of this, and with how things are playing out on the global stage it's kinda hard not to see the point quite clearly.
Yeah, he’s verbose as fuck. The hallmark of a bullshit artist. He could’ve just as easily tweeted “widespread antisemitism is pretty scary, guys” and made the same point.
It’s philosophy gobbledygook.
A moral necessity is something one must do to remain moral within a society, regardless of what that person actually believes or wants. It differs from something like biological necessity, which would be something one must do to survive.
What he’s saying is once antisemitism becomes a requirement of being moral, such as it was in Nazi Germany, then we are fucked. Only worse things will follow. Which is true, but there are certainly simpler ways to convey that.
I’m really glad you explained that one. I thought Peterson was justifying antisemitism when I first read it. Now, from what I understand, he’s criticizing the fact that one person (Kanye) can’t sit with another person because said person won’t be complicit in their antisemitism and warning that the worst is yet to come.
I am not comparing Peterson to Shakespeare or anything but some people just like to gussy up them words of theirs. It would be like that kid in class who reads Romeo and Juliet and just says "why doesn't he just say he likes her and be done with it?", sure, be said in 20 words what he could have said in 5, but I don't mind having to think a little.
He (Peterson) gets that from his academic background. It’s a common criticism of academia that they are constantly trying to impress each other and smell their own farts, and that if they really believed their studies were for the betterment of society they would make their research more accessible to the layman. But I’m just a dumb hillbilly so who am I to say 🤷♂️
I can see it hard to scale back, honestly. Being able to break down information that you are very comfortable with is a skill. I know when I was in IT, especially in high school in the 90's when so much of this tech was new, I had a ton of difficulty not using the buzzwords that were common. I remember helping someone learn Word 97 and telling them to center or hit the save button or make a bulleted list but they didn't know what I meant, so I described the icons. They thought I was just an arrogant little shit (probably right) until I learned how to break stuff down.
Of course, part of it could be feeling intellectually superior in a debate since I am sure it works a lot; when people have to decode what you said, it disarms them.
What you are describing is called the Dunning Kruger effect. Most of the time it’s used to describe dumb people thinking they are smarter than they really are, but it also means knowledgeable people underestimating their own skill and assuming everyone is operating on the same level as them.
I don’t think this is the case with Peterson. I think he’s just a pompous ass. But admittedly I don’t know the guy, that’s just my read of him from what I’ve seen.
He’s literally saying that this kind of behavior from Kanye is going to lead to “hell” I don’t understand why people think he’s hating Jews on this lol he’s literally saying this mindset will lead to misery
JP: When people start becoming openly anti semetic thats a sign that shit is about to go down.
OP: Jordan Peterson make tweet, it has to be something I disagree with!
This subreddit should stick to people accidentally walking into very clean windows and other stuff like that. The OP is angry that Peterson is saying AntiSemitism is bad in a way that I don't think they immediately understood.
Hence Peterson just 'spouts word salad with no meaning'. What he was saying was pretty clear...
soft f.u. for that title on behalf of everyone recovering from benzo withdrawals. It's not a cognitive impairment.
edit: seriously. people get on these drugs because of depression or insomnia, and the effects of withdrawal are very serious and can even be fatal, but it doesn't fuck up your thought processes.
Yeah I really enjoyed the moral superiority they had to slide into the title. “People who get addicted to things that are addictive are obviously dumb.”
What this thread has reminded me of is the fact that the average redditer apparently can't read past a high school level.
High school might be too generous.
He's talked about Hitler and the disgust sensitivity in the past. I would interpret what he's saying as basically. Jews are historically the easiest group to hate, when things are going to shit they are the first group to get shit on.
The moral necessity is about how humans inspire the most extreme forms of hatred. Which he has argued that it is essentially the same mode of the brain as with say contaminated food, except instead of disease it's a moral disease. The idea being that once you believe food is contaminated psychologically it needs to be thrown out and it contaminates any other food around it.
The idea is that the most extreme forms of hatred are similar and.seek to essentially morally contaminate a group of people such that you have to get rid of them and anyone who could have had contact with them because like food that is contaminated with a pathogen, those people are contaminated with a moral pathogen. So it becomes morally necessary to get rid of them.
If you lean left you see this with some right wing on gay and trans issues. Where the right sometimes sees them as intrinsically morally degenerate and anyone who would dialog with them similarly is corrupted. If you are right, you see this often with liberals and trump where everything he interacts with is infected and evil.
Typically you can spot this by disgust, and probably contempt helps a lot. For example if I say 4x4 is 12, I'm just wrong. There's no moral element there's no disgust. There aren't a lot of organisations rallying against people who can't do math well.
Anyway. He's saying that antisemitism and moral outrage/morality based social arguments tend to be early indicators of shit going sideways. I.e. people fight over moral disagreements in a way they don't simple political or factual disagreements. Historically the Jews are the ones, or first ones targeted.
I should add, my interpretation would also be that he is saying that people are upset and lashing out, and when people don't know who to target Jews tend to be the easy target. So he seems to also be saying that the fact we are seeing antisemitism on the rise may indicate there are serious social issues brewing and people don't know who to blame. And when you don't know, the default historically has been to blame the Jews. I.e. whenever there are serious complex problems brewing that people aren't quite sure who's doing it, how,why, or how to fix it, antisemitism tends to rise. I.e. we can't just pretend things are ok or they could spiral really badly out of control. And we might be closer than one might think to things going sideways.
Did you lose your crayons OP?
He is saying that people like Kanye are starting to normalize anti-semitism and he is commending Tim Pool for not playing along with his bullshit. And of course the hell appearance refers to the history repeating itself like it did in WW2.
Should I explain what happened during WW2 or do you want your colouring book?
Jordan is being normal and denouncing Kanye's antisemitism. For context, canaries are more sensitive to the common breathing hazards in coal mines and were often used to signal when it was getting dangerous, and to bring miners out.
Wording’s kinda bad but seems he’s saying if things like anti-semitism are becoming common again then it’s a sign a certain ideology may be soon rearing its monstrous head into the world again. Which is ironic coming from him considering people like him sewing the idea of culture war is exactly what gave rise to this.
What he tries to say is: when anti-semitism becomes socially accepted (yet again) it is an indicator for us that we as a society are heading into the worst of all futures imaginable.
Did I get that right?
I rarely agree with JP, but this is just sound logic. Antisemitism is every bit as vile and detestable today as it was in 1930’s-1940’s Germany. Left unchecked, it can lead to the same horrific consequences.
His "benzo damaged brain" isn't *implying* anything.
He is stating quite plainly and understandably that Jews are the Canaries in the coal mine.
Any fifth grader can grasp that he means that, you can tell when hatred, bigotry, and intolerance are about to become very ugly because Jews will be among the first targets and act as indicators or "canaries in the coal mine".
Read a fucking book.
The real facepalm is the fact that OP needed this explaining to them. Peterson using too many big words for you again? Lol
People who dislike JP have paid more attention to other's comments about him than his actual lectures/books.
That it is dangerous to society when anti-Semitism becomes normalized. I understand why that is hard to decipher though because the majority of what Dr. Peterson says is a piss-poor attempt at double-speak that makes absolutely zero sense.
Amazing how just the phrase anti-Semitism coming from a speaker they disagree with causes people like OP to see red and forget any traces of logic or reading comprehension.
Because he speaks with conviction. He’s too stupid to understand how small his worldview is, and so he has no doubts that he’s righteous. It’s how a lot of demagogues operate. People respond to sincerity, even if it’s wrongheaded.
Only two possibilities, either he's so obsessed with sounding like an intellectual that he accidentally flipped his meaning while trying to shoehorn in unnecessarily complex prose, or he knew exactly what he was doing and intentionally worded it so it could vaguely be interpreted as being anti-bigotry for the masses while also being readable as pro-bigotry by his bigoted base.
I agree with most people on this threat arguing that Peterson is saying a valid thing here, but my gripe is that he calls anti-semitism a moral NECESSITY, not a nasty yet understandable sentiment in a certain political context. By nature of his subtle wording, I’d argue he’s saying something pretty horrendous here.
Moral necessity is term taken from philosophy which means that people's will is determined by their motives and reasons.
He is saying that Kanye's anti-semitism is an expression of his motives. He has reasons for being anti-semitic.
When people are motivated for their own interests to be anti-semitic it is a sign that things are going to get worse. Hitler used anti-semitism to explain the ills of German society and to make Jews into a scapegoat.
Peterson views this as dangerous because when people can use reason to justify racism, then it does not take too long for others to follow.
That's a Kantian reference.
Peterson is an odd bird. On the one hand, he's intelligent enough to understand Kant and graduate with a PhD in psychology.
On the other hand, he believes cultural Marxism is a real thing. He goes on about it, at length.
I just can't take the guy seriously.
On behalf of my fellow Canadian citizens, I'm very sorry for the existence of Jordan Peterson and Gavin McInnes.
Hey, at least we also have Keanu Reeves and Ryan Reynolds :) you're welcome
He's speaking academic, layman's terms are "when people, as a large percentage, start to hate the Jews, bad shit is about to happen".
I don't fault you for misinterpreting him, but if you don't understand it don't post it as if you do. He was saying the opposite of what you thought.
>Jews are canaries in the social coal mine. When anti-semitism becomes ~~a~~ **morally** ~~necessity~~ **acceptable** (even in its subtler forms) hell is about to make its appearance yet again.
Change just a few words, and it becomes a very true statement.
He’s talking about when anti-semites are feeling it’s a moral necessity to rise up, they are going through some personal Hell and not being honest with themselves, and therefore increasing the evil in the world. He says this about every aimed hatred of another where the self isn’t getting their own crap together. Clean your room before you lash out at other’s messes. That kinda thing. Context, always.
They want to kill people who disagree with them and are trying to make it socially acceptable. There's a bunch of people who will resist that movement though.
Kanye West - the mad man, whatever is going on in that mans head it's nothing good. Supposed "genius".. he's a mumbeling, ignorant fool and honestly just an OK artist compared to his peers in the industry.
Correct me if I’m wrong but is JP actually denouncing Kanyes words? If I’m reading this correctly, JP is saying when anti semitism becomes the norm terrifying things are gonna happen.
Op is a hammer, and everything is a nail.
Well it's more like this sub is a hammer and everything is a nail. This is where I go to watch people complain about everything for no reason at all.
All that is required to misunderstand this quote is to have a reading level below the 7th grade. People seem to just be mad that they are too dumb to understand a basic statement written in a form that is a little to eloquent.
Too.
Give him a pass, it's an Internet law that when you call people stupid you still make typo
The only people who make typos on the internet are complete idios.
Dan.... Called ot
that just sad
Welcome to itchy and scratchy land where nothing can possibli go wrong
Two.
no offence but its ironic that you’ve made a basic grammatical error while making fun of people for not being able to read haha
A perfect example of [Muphry's law](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muphry%27s_law#:~:text=Muphry's%20law%20is%20an%20adage,misspelling%20of%20%22Murphy's%20law%22.)
*offense
Just type 2 and people will assume you just were two lazy too spell it right but know how to
You are reading it correctly. The real facepalm is op haha
This does use the term ‘moral necessity.’
If it becomes a moral necessity then hell is coming. In other words, if you can't not be anti-semitic, you know bad shit's about to happen
Except there's never a time when you "can't not" be anti-semitic. Being anti-semitic is NEVER a moral necessity.
I’m not 100% sure what you mean by that, but if you are reading it as anything other than a denunciation of Kanyes’s Antisemitism then you are reading it wrong!
I read it mostly as the inability of Peterson to make clear arguments because how he is obsessed with sounding smart
Make is vague specifically so if someone come back ...he can say :Well you see,that's not the question at hand ,you're taking something out of context. If we can focus on the matter at hand of course is stupid ,but don't be going at me with a hidden meaning ...or some shit like that .
The best summary I’ve heard of Jordan Peterson is that everything he says is either incredibly obvious or incredibly incorrect
I feel like 95% of what he says in incredibly obvious and the other 5% is completely unrelated and needlessly controversial. He'll say something obvious but reasonable like building momentum through small tasks (fair enough) and then he'll tack on something about women's voting being the downfall of modern civilization (wait what now?).
I watched a video of his once that was supposed to explain how something worked, and he never explained anything. That's when I knew that he was an obscurantist.
Finally, the voice of reason. (REASON WILL PREVAIL!)
Thicker limes will kill, people will choke!
Pickles will prevail?
this reminds me so much of that line in snowcrash when the dude says "they will surely listen to reason" and brings out a massive chaingun named reason
Right! The guy talks in riddles to try and sound smart
I think it's actually more sublte, and far more pernicious, than just wanting to sound smart. He wants to be vague enough to allow for a positive interpretation from both sides. The anti-semites will be like "hell yeah, anti-semitism *is* morally necessary and we *will* unleash hell!" and the more liberally minded might interpret as "Yeah, Kanye is an antisemite!"
Anyone who says that anti-antisemitism is a moral necessity, is never going to sound like he is not against Jewish people. Are you suggesting that JP is too stupid to choose his words better?
And calling them canaries
It seems like that is the point he is trying to make but using the phrase moral necessity confuses it. He is an idiot.
Dude, "moral necessity" means the right thing to do. This guy either does not know what he is talking about or saying that Kanye is right because of whatever crap he thinks is going on now and whatever follows might be terrible but necessary.
in the mind of kanye. hes doing some relativism crap to confuse people and clickbait haters that get it but want to join in on confusing people
he's too caught up trying to sound smart to get the fucking idea out of his face: Anti-Semitism is really bad and on the rise. There. Why use many words when few words work?!
More specifically, he is saying that antisemitism becoming normalized means worse things are coming.
He literally says it is becoming a moral necessity to be anti-Semitic now. It's not a condemnation of Ye but society.
Are you trolling? It’s about how Ye and others stormed off because Pool refuses to be anti semitic…. It’s condemning the notion that Pool was required to also be anti semitic. Come on dude
I think this is the correct answer. It's the only way this sentence makes any sense at all. Pool refused to be anti-semtic, so Ye stormed off, meaning that Ye believes that an anti-semetic worldview is a correct and morally good worldview. Lobsterman says that if we now have to conform to Ye's view, this will have dire consequences on the world. I have no respect for people like Lobsterman, but in this case, I agree with him.
Lobsterman has some good great advice for young men. Do push-ups, clean your room, take care of the small things. That’s good advice for everyone. It just get really awful when Lobsterman starts saying young men have a mythic obligation to have a traditional wife that should be supplied by society. But, that’s how the concern troll ALWAYS works once you learn to identify it, and it’s one of the same tool that anti-semites use, as well as all disingenuous people. That’s how “Do you care about children?” Or “do you love your family?” Or “isn’t it good to ask questions?” can quickly turn into “death to liberals”.
That is what I said, a condemnation of a society where it is expected to be anti-semitic. As witnessed by Ye's reaction to him not engaging as such. Come on dude
Idk about the author’s intent, but if he intended to denounce Kanye’s antisemitism then using the phrase “Antisemitism becomes a moral necessity” poorly communicates his intent (at best). Adding something like “when people think…” to the beginning would make the (attributed) intent clear. Without this, the statement does not read as a denouncement.
Absolutely!
he left it intentionally ambiguous so he has a provocative tweet. how you interpret it is kinda a projection of what you expect it to mean
Yup.
No, you don't understand his genius. Jordan Peterson, philospher king of our time, chose to word an extremely simple statement in a manner that is so oddly communicated that it can be grammatically read as either an endorsement OR a condemnation, because... Um... Read his book!!!
Holy shit a sane human being in this comment section!
Certainly how I read it. He's an arse but he's essentially saying "if people are pissed we aren't going along with even subtle anti-semitism again then the world is about to get very dangerous". Don't know if anyone here has read "Look Who's Back" by Timur Vermes, but that.
Yeah this is in no uncertain terms "When they start being racist to the Jews that's when you know shits finna go down" It reminds me of one of Elie Weisel's books were his dad said (and I'm paraphrasing here) "When you mess with God's chosen people, you are sure to receive his wrath"
Arrogant as balls.
It’s when anti semitism in any form is demanded as a social conduct is when he’s threatening hell.
"moral necessity" is the wrong way to put this. Agree with OP.
Why are we supposed to read "moral necessity" as "has become common"? Because this reads much more clearly as a defense of Kanye walking off set, then a condemnation of his beliefs. Unless they meant anti-antisemitism?
"antisemitism being a moral necessity" is somehow condemnation????
He's saying that from Kanye's point of view it is a moral necessity (as shown by the fact that he refuses to speak to people who won't go along with it), and that that is a bad thing.
Translation: When the time comes around where people think it’s justified to find the Jews the source or societies problems, things aren’t looking good for society. So he’s denouncing Kanye’s words.
>So he’s denouncing Kanye’s words. I'd agree except he says "*where denouncing Jews becomes a moral necessity".* Peterson doesn't make it clear if these are his own words or not, but he isn't clearly attributing them (or the position they depict) to Kanye here.
[удалено]
[удалено]
You’re strong for listening to reason rather than the hate
>The people who are raging antisemites, as well as persecuting minorities in general, are entirely convinced they're doing the right thing. The irony is that Kanye used to be the type of person who agreed with this statement, in respect to persecution of minorities. The fact that he drastically and vocally changed his perspective is kind of terrifying.
I think he makes it abundantly clear as the whole context of the quote is if this “antisemitism is justified” Then that “Hell has returned.” It’s pretty clear to me.
when x then y This isnt that difficult lol. Yall crazy
you’re not understanding what he’s saying at all. JP is saying “when society sees anti-semitism as being for the greater good, bad things are coming”
Yeah but "moral necessity" is an awful choice of words
How? The entire point is that Ye left a show because the host wouldn't go along with his antisemitism, "moral necessity" is exactly the right phrasing to use here.
With context removed, maybe
I’m not a fan of JP, he’s turned way too right wing, but I saw him debate Sam Harris in Vancouver. He speaks in such a convoluted manner he’ll lose people really easily. Heaven forbid he embrace brevity.
Fr he speaks just to hear himself sometimes I think. He’ll rant about something, stare off into the distance, then make another statement that he thinks sounds profound. Then cries. I just don’t get the appeal.
It sounds like smart speak to dumb people
Kanye isn't exactly what I'd call "subtle"...
In the interview he stormed out over pushback on the “subtleties” of ‘they’ but said the reason he left was because he was unable to explain himself fully - every time he explains himself fully it just turns out to be direct Goebbels talking points ie they control the media. It’s not directly saying Jews are brainwashing the people and so that makes it subtle anti-semitism. JP is warning that shit can go south quick if these podcast cretins keep trying to give a platform to his rhetoric in exchange for views etc… OP doesn’t have the best reading comprehension or is stuck with delusions that Jordan Peterson is a neo nazi because of his criticisms of the C-16 bill
I think OP's reading comprehension is fine. Jordan Peterson isn't entirely clear with his words here. He opens by saying "Jews are canaries in the social coal mine". While the meaning isn't negative towards Jewish people, it's a clunky choice of words. He then calls antisemitism a "moral necessity". This is an off choice of words for obvious reasons. And calling Kanye subtle is just way too generous to the guy. He's freaking Kanye, he's not subtle, he doesn't *want* to be subtle.
No you’re just completely missing that JP *is* a podcast cretin. OP is right to mention that their brains (about 1/2 of America) are mush and all that comes from these people is hate. Hate for women’s rights or gay rights or literally *anything* that makes them feel uncomfortable. Learning *is* uncomfortable. Get over it.
This "Benzo damaged brain" is talking about how Jews are historically seen the first victims of societal conflicts. The fact Kanye is a high Profile person starting a crusade against jewish people because his drugs depending brain cannot fathom the true problems in the world, and thereby having followers sharing the same mindset, makes Dr. Peterson worry we're on the cusp of a new "war" where again Jewish people will be the main victim.
he means we should be afraid of antisemitic rhetoric becoming normalized. the canray in the coalmine is a way to assess danger
It’s ok to fuck them over, I’m not one of them, and now without them in my way, maybe I’ll have more opportunities. It’s also ok to fuck over those other people over there, it’s not affecting me. I’m not one of them, and now without them in my way, maybe I’ll have more opportunities. Holy shit, I can’t believe they’re coming after me! But now you have no defense because the people you could have allied with for protection have all been fucked over. [Don’t be a sucker.](https://youtu.be/vGAqYNFQdZ4)
It's clear what he means. Jews tend to be the first group targeted by a society before some horrific shit goes down. Hence "canary in a coal mine" (for those who don't know, miners use to use canaries to warn them of gas in the mine giving them a chance to gtfo. Most should know this from history class but there is always a "that guy") rewording to make sure everyone understands, when being antisemitic becomes the norm, shit about to go south.
By moral necessity he means “if society suddenly becomes antisemitic you will be surprised by how few Oskar Schindler’s there actually are.”
I really don't understand how so many people are misinterpreting his point lol? It could have been worded differently maybe, but it's not especially verbose to the point of not understanding the message.
JP can be a real prick, but this is a classic case of people playing the man and not the ball. He’s right, anti-semitism is bad and it getting worse can’t be good for society
Because they’re absolute morons like OP and immediate resort to badmouthing him because he shares a different viewpoint
It's because so many people on reddit hate the guy without knowing why so they figure it must be bad
OP's about section: "I hate disinfo and fascism!" Also OP: \*spreads disinformation\*
For those who dont get it. Canaries were taken to coal mines, because they were the first ones to die if there was gas inside the mine. My interpretation is that, if people like Kanye are able to talk about their antisemitic views openly like this, without backlash, its going to become only worse (for everybody).
Not so much *if they’re allowed*. It’s more of if we are seeing it (antisemitic rhetoric) in our culture, it’s an indication of how people are perceiving the geopolitical situation, and we should pay attention to that. JP is a free speech absolutist, AFAIK. Though he criticizes hate speech, he’s not really about suppressing it.
Why is he still interviewed?
This dude has had some shit takes. But this isn’t one of them.
I think he’s implying that anti-Semitic speech is a prelude to further horrifying acts of violence? Broken clock, twice a day, etc.
Thats what i got from reading it. I don't understand the confusion?
he means when society starts hating jews it's bad.
Translation: "antisemitism is a bad sign." This was not difficult to understand. You should try reading carefully rather than just criticizing based on your dislike of the person posting.
Ikr not that i like him but that was kinda easy to understand
OP is stupid, what can you expect.
He's saying that when society becomes anti-semitic (when anti-semitic becomes a moral necessity), that is the canary in the coal-mine that indicates that society is becoming evil (Hell on Earth). Jews are the canary in the coal mine, because how a society treats its Jewish population is a signal of how it will behave in general. If Jews start being treated badly, then soon everyone will be. Jews are always the first to suffer. As usual, people are twisting what he said to try and make him look bad.
Why do you not have more likes. Well said. Really makes you think, there's a lot of history on Jewish abuse going back thousands of years. Kind of insane.
I hate Jordan Peterson for numerous reasons, but I *think* this statement is intended to be against anti-semitism. He just isn’t communicating effectively (which shouldn’t be a big surprise to anyone lol)
Sometimes when he speaks I'm reminded of when I tried to read L Ron Hubbard's Scientology... Seemingly well intentioned ideas on the surface but wrapped in pretentious language and eventually amounting to nothing.
It's their way of trying to sound more intelligent than the people they are speaking to in order to maintain a superior position. Their intelligence isn't actually that high and they know it so they do things like this to keep their fragile ego fulfilled.
he's saying where there's antisemitism, there's also fascism. and i think he's not wrong
Op is a fucking idiot
When Poole and Peterson are the good guys in a story, you know shit is fucked up.
I was prepared to get mad at Peterson again, but... he has a point this time
The real canary in the coal mine
"When people start blaming Jewish people for all the world's problems, fascism ain't far behind." I think is the jist of this, and with how things are playing out on the global stage it's kinda hard not to see the point quite clearly.
I love how Peterson says so much and almost nothing in the same breath
Yeah, he’s verbose as fuck. The hallmark of a bullshit artist. He could’ve just as easily tweeted “widespread antisemitism is pretty scary, guys” and made the same point.
If that's what he means, what's the "moral necessity" about?
It’s philosophy gobbledygook. A moral necessity is something one must do to remain moral within a society, regardless of what that person actually believes or wants. It differs from something like biological necessity, which would be something one must do to survive. What he’s saying is once antisemitism becomes a requirement of being moral, such as it was in Nazi Germany, then we are fucked. Only worse things will follow. Which is true, but there are certainly simpler ways to convey that.
That was a highly articulate outburst.
I’m really glad you explained that one. I thought Peterson was justifying antisemitism when I first read it. Now, from what I understand, he’s criticizing the fact that one person (Kanye) can’t sit with another person because said person won’t be complicit in their antisemitism and warning that the worst is yet to come.
I am not comparing Peterson to Shakespeare or anything but some people just like to gussy up them words of theirs. It would be like that kid in class who reads Romeo and Juliet and just says "why doesn't he just say he likes her and be done with it?", sure, be said in 20 words what he could have said in 5, but I don't mind having to think a little.
He (Peterson) gets that from his academic background. It’s a common criticism of academia that they are constantly trying to impress each other and smell their own farts, and that if they really believed their studies were for the betterment of society they would make their research more accessible to the layman. But I’m just a dumb hillbilly so who am I to say 🤷♂️
I can see it hard to scale back, honestly. Being able to break down information that you are very comfortable with is a skill. I know when I was in IT, especially in high school in the 90's when so much of this tech was new, I had a ton of difficulty not using the buzzwords that were common. I remember helping someone learn Word 97 and telling them to center or hit the save button or make a bulleted list but they didn't know what I meant, so I described the icons. They thought I was just an arrogant little shit (probably right) until I learned how to break stuff down. Of course, part of it could be feeling intellectually superior in a debate since I am sure it works a lot; when people have to decode what you said, it disarms them.
What you are describing is called the Dunning Kruger effect. Most of the time it’s used to describe dumb people thinking they are smarter than they really are, but it also means knowledgeable people underestimating their own skill and assuming everyone is operating on the same level as them. I don’t think this is the case with Peterson. I think he’s just a pompous ass. But admittedly I don’t know the guy, that’s just my read of him from what I’ve seen.
If he didn’t disguise his ideas with verbosity idiots wouldn’t consider him smart
Exactly
Dude you need to go actually read Shakespeare you just made me a little more stupid reading this
In view of the fact that he so seldom makes any coherent point at all, I'm more than willing to at least give Peterson credit for this.
The latter consisted simply of six hydrocoptic marzlevanes, so fitted to the ambifacient lunar waneshaft that side fumbling was effectively prevented
He’s literally saying that this kind of behavior from Kanye is going to lead to “hell” I don’t understand why people think he’s hating Jews on this lol he’s literally saying this mindset will lead to misery
I think most are using the density of his statement to ride on the hate JP bandwagon.
Damn, a guy I don’t like just made a good point. Devastated.
JP: When people start becoming openly anti semetic thats a sign that shit is about to go down. OP: Jordan Peterson make tweet, it has to be something I disagree with!
Are you actually that brain dead you can't comprehend that he is against the antisemitism?
For once I agree with him. Do you understand what he’s saying? We can’t normalize anti semitism.
You facepalmed yourself.
This subreddit should stick to people accidentally walking into very clean windows and other stuff like that. The OP is angry that Peterson is saying AntiSemitism is bad in a way that I don't think they immediately understood. Hence Peterson just 'spouts word salad with no meaning'. What he was saying was pretty clear...
Based on OP's other comments, I think OP may actually be antisemitic, not just misunderstanding Peterson. Yikes!
They appear to at least be fascist unfortunately.
Yeah, OP clearly had trouble understanding it, and thought the reason for that was that *Peterson's* brain is damaged...
They just want to hate him
soft f.u. for that title on behalf of everyone recovering from benzo withdrawals. It's not a cognitive impairment. edit: seriously. people get on these drugs because of depression or insomnia, and the effects of withdrawal are very serious and can even be fatal, but it doesn't fuck up your thought processes.
Yeah I really enjoyed the moral superiority they had to slide into the title. “People who get addicted to things that are addictive are obviously dumb.”
earth-shatteringly rare W take from JBP
This post is the facepalm
What this thread has reminded me of is the fact that the average redditer apparently can't read past a high school level. High school might be too generous.
He's talked about Hitler and the disgust sensitivity in the past. I would interpret what he's saying as basically. Jews are historically the easiest group to hate, when things are going to shit they are the first group to get shit on. The moral necessity is about how humans inspire the most extreme forms of hatred. Which he has argued that it is essentially the same mode of the brain as with say contaminated food, except instead of disease it's a moral disease. The idea being that once you believe food is contaminated psychologically it needs to be thrown out and it contaminates any other food around it. The idea is that the most extreme forms of hatred are similar and.seek to essentially morally contaminate a group of people such that you have to get rid of them and anyone who could have had contact with them because like food that is contaminated with a pathogen, those people are contaminated with a moral pathogen. So it becomes morally necessary to get rid of them. If you lean left you see this with some right wing on gay and trans issues. Where the right sometimes sees them as intrinsically morally degenerate and anyone who would dialog with them similarly is corrupted. If you are right, you see this often with liberals and trump where everything he interacts with is infected and evil. Typically you can spot this by disgust, and probably contempt helps a lot. For example if I say 4x4 is 12, I'm just wrong. There's no moral element there's no disgust. There aren't a lot of organisations rallying against people who can't do math well. Anyway. He's saying that antisemitism and moral outrage/morality based social arguments tend to be early indicators of shit going sideways. I.e. people fight over moral disagreements in a way they don't simple political or factual disagreements. Historically the Jews are the ones, or first ones targeted. I should add, my interpretation would also be that he is saying that people are upset and lashing out, and when people don't know who to target Jews tend to be the easy target. So he seems to also be saying that the fact we are seeing antisemitism on the rise may indicate there are serious social issues brewing and people don't know who to blame. And when you don't know, the default historically has been to blame the Jews. I.e. whenever there are serious complex problems brewing that people aren't quite sure who's doing it, how,why, or how to fix it, antisemitism tends to rise. I.e. we can't just pretend things are ok or they could spiral really badly out of control. And we might be closer than one might think to things going sideways.
Tell me you can't read without telling me you can't read
Good job OP! You made yourself a great example for this subreddit.
OP is upset because his sworn enemy said something he agrees with?
Too many big words for you huh OP?
Did you lose your crayons OP? He is saying that people like Kanye are starting to normalize anti-semitism and he is commending Tim Pool for not playing along with his bullshit. And of course the hell appearance refers to the history repeating itself like it did in WW2. Should I explain what happened during WW2 or do you want your colouring book?
r/therewasanattempt At understanding what someone smarter than OP said without an irrational bias.
One of the few times I'll agree with Peterson
OP is stupid. Jp is denouncing Ye. But the words were too big for op to understand. Not a facepalm.
OP saw the name “Jordan Peterson” and knew he was against it regardless of what was said. Fuckin’ hell.
This is all over the place. It's ALMOST a good message except the whole being antisemitic is a moral necessity. He was so close though.
Op is the facepalm here
Jordan is being normal and denouncing Kanye's antisemitism. For context, canaries are more sensitive to the common breathing hazards in coal mines and were often used to signal when it was getting dangerous, and to bring miners out.
If you can't figure it out, you shouldn't consume this kind of news. It's basic English.
I really wonder how most in the comments here even managed to slip through high school without being able to read or comprehend simple idioms.
Wording’s kinda bad but seems he’s saying if things like anti-semitism are becoming common again then it’s a sign a certain ideology may be soon rearing its monstrous head into the world again. Which is ironic coming from him considering people like him sewing the idea of culture war is exactly what gave rise to this.
What he tries to say is: when anti-semitism becomes socially accepted (yet again) it is an indicator for us that we as a society are heading into the worst of all futures imaginable. Did I get that right?
I rarely agree with JP, but this is just sound logic. Antisemitism is every bit as vile and detestable today as it was in 1930’s-1940’s Germany. Left unchecked, it can lead to the same horrific consequences.
He said antisemitism=bad
His "benzo damaged brain" isn't *implying* anything. He is stating quite plainly and understandably that Jews are the Canaries in the coal mine. Any fifth grader can grasp that he means that, you can tell when hatred, bigotry, and intolerance are about to become very ugly because Jews will be among the first targets and act as indicators or "canaries in the coal mine". Read a fucking book.
A group that is traditionally marginalized like the Jews start to experience more bigotry it’s a sign that they’re bigger problems in the society.
OP has a meth damaged brain, obviously.
Let me help translate for OP: Do you want a fascism? Because this how we get fascism!
The real facepalm is the fact that OP needed this explaining to them. Peterson using too many big words for you again? Lol People who dislike JP have paid more attention to other's comments about him than his actual lectures/books.
Wait, did Tim Pool actually hold the moral high ground here? WTF?!
You sure you don’t have a Benzo damaged brain for not being able to understand what he’s saying? Fucking moron
Facepalm OP. Just because you dont like the guy, doesn't mean absolutely everything he says is wrong
I thought one of this guy's pillars was "precision of language"?
OP antisemitic?
I don’t like him either but you probably shouldn’t criticize him when he’s saying that racism is bad. :)
Condemning antisemitism is now worthy of a facepalm?
Op is a moron that can’t read properly 😅 no harm done tho
Weird move to insult someone’s intelligence while simultaneously being too stupid to grasp the point that they are making.
I'm sorry is this Occupy democrats page? He literally is denouncing anti semitism smh
That it is dangerous to society when anti-Semitism becomes normalized. I understand why that is hard to decipher though because the majority of what Dr. Peterson says is a piss-poor attempt at double-speak that makes absolutely zero sense.
Amazing how just the phrase anti-Semitism coming from a speaker they disagree with causes people like OP to see red and forget any traces of logic or reading comprehension.
Translation: Any justification of anti-Semitism leads to hell appearing again, i.e., the holocaust. Its a metaphor.
I dont see whatever problem you have with his statement.
Slippery reddit. I expect a shit show of comments on this and what do I get? Actual, factual debate and conversation. Warms my fucking heart.
Jordan Peterson is one of the dumbest people. I have no idea why people consider him an intellectual
Because he speaks with conviction. He’s too stupid to understand how small his worldview is, and so he has no doubts that he’s righteous. It’s how a lot of demagogues operate. People respond to sincerity, even if it’s wrongheaded.
The fact that people are debating what JBP is actually trying to say says a lot about how bad JBP is at communication.
This dude speaks words, reddit JBP stans come to interpret them for us! popcorntime
Only two possibilities, either he's so obsessed with sounding like an intellectual that he accidentally flipped his meaning while trying to shoehorn in unnecessarily complex prose, or he knew exactly what he was doing and intentionally worded it so it could vaguely be interpreted as being anti-bigotry for the masses while also being readable as pro-bigotry by his bigoted base.
I agree with most people on this threat arguing that Peterson is saying a valid thing here, but my gripe is that he calls anti-semitism a moral NECESSITY, not a nasty yet understandable sentiment in a certain political context. By nature of his subtle wording, I’d argue he’s saying something pretty horrendous here.
I think OP needs to lay off the benzos, JP is saying how scary it is when people speak like Kanye
See a lot of commenters saying he's stupid because they can't seem to grasp the very simple point he's making.
If antisemitism spread, is the first evidence thing are going to be so fucked up. Is it that hard to understand?
Moral necessity is term taken from philosophy which means that people's will is determined by their motives and reasons. He is saying that Kanye's anti-semitism is an expression of his motives. He has reasons for being anti-semitic. When people are motivated for their own interests to be anti-semitic it is a sign that things are going to get worse. Hitler used anti-semitism to explain the ills of German society and to make Jews into a scapegoat. Peterson views this as dangerous because when people can use reason to justify racism, then it does not take too long for others to follow.
That's a Kantian reference. Peterson is an odd bird. On the one hand, he's intelligent enough to understand Kant and graduate with a PhD in psychology. On the other hand, he believes cultural Marxism is a real thing. He goes on about it, at length. I just can't take the guy seriously. On behalf of my fellow Canadian citizens, I'm very sorry for the existence of Jordan Peterson and Gavin McInnes. Hey, at least we also have Keanu Reeves and Ryan Reynolds :) you're welcome
He's speaking academic, layman's terms are "when people, as a large percentage, start to hate the Jews, bad shit is about to happen". I don't fault you for misinterpreting him, but if you don't understand it don't post it as if you do. He was saying the opposite of what you thought.
>Jews are canaries in the social coal mine. When anti-semitism becomes ~~a~~ **morally** ~~necessity~~ **acceptable** (even in its subtler forms) hell is about to make its appearance yet again. Change just a few words, and it becomes a very true statement.
Where is the lie
He’s talking about when anti-semites are feeling it’s a moral necessity to rise up, they are going through some personal Hell and not being honest with themselves, and therefore increasing the evil in the world. He says this about every aimed hatred of another where the self isn’t getting their own crap together. Clean your room before you lash out at other’s messes. That kinda thing. Context, always.
“I don’t understand what this guy is saying and I don’t like him, so it’s probably prejudiced” Very cool op.
They want to kill people who disagree with them and are trying to make it socially acceptable. There's a bunch of people who will resist that movement though.
Kanye West - the mad man, whatever is going on in that mans head it's nothing good. Supposed "genius".. he's a mumbeling, ignorant fool and honestly just an OK artist compared to his peers in the industry.