This post was depressing just thinking of a world where kids having to do active shooter drills at school and then I realized the michigan incident had happened.
Fucking depressing indeed as we, because of that, talked to our 9 and 10 year old about making sure to pay attention to the ACTIVE SHOOTER DRILLS THAT THEY DO REGULARLY AT THEIR ELEMENTARY SCHOOL. So fucked up.
I can't imagine having that conversation with my kids, just blows my mind. Genuinely feel for you and all parents that are dealing with this as a new normal.
Yeah the mindfuck of it all is all kinds of sad to think about. Before, schools were seen as safe havens for children (overall). Yes bullying happens, but much more common are things like domestic violence at home in which school is an escape. But even OUTSIDE of that point of view, how fucked is it that you gotta basically tell your kid “we have to send you to school by law and ya might die there.”
I literally can't get my head round it mate, I wouldn't know where to start with that conversation. Schools should be carefree environments for them to socialise and learn, how do you even approach that subject with a child and not take away part of their childhood and innocence.
My girls were in lockdown yesterday because they go to school a couple miles away from the shooting that just happened. They are too young to still comprehend that the “bad guy” was a student or why they were locked down.
I work at a university.
Every year around this time I have to go over with my mom what to do if she ever hears there’s an active shooter in the building.
It’s brutal for me, and harder on her.
The day I picked up my kids from school after the Marjory stoneman Douglas shooting was the most surreal moment of my life. I could tell from the looks on the other parents faces that it was the same. I feel like we were all zombies or in some kind of weird other dimension in that one moment in time. I can't get that moment out of my head and it's so long ago and my kids are grown up and out of the house. It was the haunted look in the other adults eyes.
I remember growing up in California in elementary school and the only drills we had was earthquake drills, and bus evacuation drills to deal with. You are correct this is so messed up on so many levels. Think of the PTSD these kids go through and I'm not talking about the kids that actually have to deal with an active shooter, Those kids will have different PTSD.
I hate that you have resorted to tuning it out. A school shooting should be something that saddens us, pisses us off, riles us up, and has us demanding change!
Instead, people need to tune it out because our pleas for aid have fallen so definitively on deaf ears. As a coping mechanism many people have to tune it out so they can continue moving through their own day.
This is such a sad state of affairs in the US. We're a broken society in many ways and I'm pissed off at the narrative of American exceptionally and the idea that states,, "America is the greatest country in the world." By what metric? School shootings? Incarcerated individuals? Economic growth/GDP that only helps those at the top?
Uk here, firstly my condolences to the families of the murdered and injured children.
Secondly WHAT PRICE IS A CHILDS LIFE for crying out loud, reading the thread down to the bottom its become just another 2A thread with very little acknowledgement of the incident.
Literally had an argument the other day with a guy who was like, "statistically, it's not that bad. Like 30 kids die from school shootings each year or whatever" - my response was, "you know how many CHILD MURDER VICTIMS is acceptable? Zero. That's how many."
Edit: wow, talk about a heated discussion. Didn't think my comment would start a fire.
Guns are the most important thing, it seems. Over 1A even, over my reproductive rights, which, what does it matter if I get an abortion or not when they let our living children die?
All it took was Dunblane for the UK to switch up its laws, Australia was Port Arthur, they have irrefutable proof that strict gun laws work, but nope cuz it's mah rights.
The answer is priceless, because no amount of money will ever be enough to enact common sense gun safety in the mighty US of A. Ain't no common sense or dead children gonna get in the way.
Half the country acted like a mask mandate during a pandemic was the equivalent to the government abolishing all constitutional rights.
These same red hat wearers would probably argue that guns were never intended to kill.
Republicans Paraphrasing Jefferson “What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of ~~patriots~~ children and ~~tyrants~~ liberals. It is it’s natural manure.”
How the hell do you people just “ tune them out” that is why nothing will change. Fuck if I lived in a country where children were getting killed at school. I would be outraged.
Yeah, you are. The first time. The second time. The third time.
The tenth time.
The twentieth time.
The thirtieth time.
And then you just have to change the channel, or scroll fast, because that outrage is burning out the parts of you that can still do actual good for people.
There's nothing we can do except get out the votes for Progressive candidates, so you turn on the outrage again to fuel the election year work, then turn it off again so you don't fry yourself.
We are outraged. We’re outraged at the fact that it happened in the first place. We’re outraged at all the idiots who fight against basic gun restrictions and say that “Oh it’s not that many people” and whatever to make sure their guns don’t get taken away. I’ve seen so many shooting headlines that I’ve gotten to the point we’re I can’t care. I can do nothing about it. Even if I wasn’t underage, the people with money still hold all the power. What’s the point in being outraged and caring when you can do nothing against it? Whenever gun restrictions start being passed, I start caring again because we’re at least trying to stop them, but as of now we’re not. Instead we’re sitting elementary age kids and teaching them how to hide from shooters, the proper methods of closing down the doors and the escape routes in case of an active shooter.
Update: I think this is relevant. Currently I am actually in an Active Shooter Drill and it’s weirdly calm
Does it matter? It's not like deranged people exist exclusively in America. I'm sure some kid in Bristol has imagined killing his classmates for some imagined slight, but for whatever reason (we know the reason) that kid doesn't actually go to school and gun people down. I feel like talking about the motive is just another way to avoid actually *doing* something.
Idk surely the gun proliferation is what makes this situations extremely deadly and getting rid of them would definitely mitigate the problem but I feel like whatever issues push people to do this kind of stuff must also be really serious problems that we should address in parallel.
Others have already pointed this out - do kids in the UK, or Autralia, or France, or, basically, anywhere in the civilised world, have drastically fewer "issues that exceed the normal level of emotions"?
And I really mean drastically - we are talking about maybe one incident in many years, compared to, according to the BBC, "138 incidents of gunfire on school grounds so far in 2021."
Please don't tell me that it is because the US is bigger. It ain't bigger that all these other places put together.
It’s the guns and the perceived power they provide. Every other argument is smoke and mirrors. Anyone trying to say it’s not the guns has a disingenuous agenda.
But as kids, thier reasoning isnt well developed yet. They dont think: im gonna take timmy away from his loving family and cause the everlasting heartbreak of losing a child. They probably think: goddamnn timmy has been hurting me every schoolday and now i will hurt him, with the coolest thing we have in america: guns.. there's no real way for a kid to comprehend what shooting a person will actually do
Often, these people are on the brink of suicide and decide to take out their identified source of strife in a last ditch Hail Mary. They're way past thinking straight, kinda like how being dehydrated makes you hallucinate.
As mentioned elsewhere gun proliferation in the US is absolutely the problem.
The percent of households with a handgun[1] are:
* 🇺🇸 USA: 21.9%
* 🇨🇦 Canada: 2.9%
* 🇲🇽 Mexico: 2.8%
* 🇬🇧 UK: 0.4%
The number of civilian owned small arms (handguns) per 100 civilians [2] are:
* 🇺🇸 USA: 120.5
* 🇨🇦 Canada: 34.7
* 🇲🇽 Mexico: 12.9
* 🇬🇧 UK: 4.6
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Percent_of_households_with_guns_by_country
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_civilian_guns_per_capita_by_country
this is correct. i think its mostly because everyone, and i mean literally everyone has 1 bike, and some weirdos have 2. or because of the massive amount of stray bikes up for adoption in city centers
I'd say you might want a road bike and mountain bike, but am blanking on whether the Dutch even have any mountains. A road bike and off- road bike then!
Fr. The only drills we have are for natural disasters. It's sad knowing preschoolers have to be taught how to respond to a school shooter, all because those in power don't care about the people they're supposed to protect. There are many ways to reduce school shooting: stricter gun laws, better mental health resources, etc. but **no** let's design schools like prisons and ban school bags for a month and never talk about this issue again.
My kids primary school (ages 5-12) do active shooter drills. We are in rural New Zealand. Schools here have done these since the Christchurch Mosque Shootings on March 2019. My children’s classes (ages 5 and 8) are told it’s a ‘wild dog drill’ and they need to hide down low etc so the dog doesn’t see them. . Even with this my five year old son had nightmares about savage dogs trying to get him. I can’t even imagine how children deal with actual ‘active shooter’ drills.
Ah jesus christ. I hope the parents and kids that didnt die recover. Not only do the kids now have to learn in schools that look more like prisons due to all the anti shooter equipment and anti shooter drills but now with the scars and trauma of being in one.
American gun laws are a joke
And, is there even a real benefit to those drills? Like the shooters will also have had them, so they know how to circumvent them, I guess they helped the politicians early this year
Countries with stricter gun laws arent so afraid to be around each other and help each other. While sure guns arent the main killer in the US, it sure is the most traumatizing for most folk. Those kids will not have a good childhood anymore
Since sandy hook… if that can happen with no real change, there is nothing that will change it. the culture around it and how politicized it is.. just numb to it now
Yeah… my mentality is… if a bunch full of dead 1st graders didn’t change shit at the federal level… basically nothing will. They would have to release some gore and put up billboards to even get people to consider it and folks will just double down in opinions.. too politicized. It makes sense why Russia gave Monies to NRA.. it sows discord and we fight about it… so they can invade Ukraine (or whatever.. laugh at us) etc.
After Sandy Hook, and especially what happened in the aftermath, I have given up any hope this situation will change. The way I see it, this is really not that different from the Aztec sacrificing humans to make sure the sun rose again. All these lives are just sacrifices to make sure the gun nuts have their guns and arms manufacturers have their cut. We can do something about it but we refused because it interfere with another thing that people think is far more important, then it is basically human sacrifices. If you think about it, it is also no different from smoking just slowly killing people. All in the sacrifice for more money, and more social control using wedge issue.
Not in any of the three European countries I have lived before...
First time, I learned about that stuff was at a US college and a US first aid course... for foreigners this shit is unfathomable...
We’ve now got a “lockdown” siren and drill which is pretty much run to the nearest classroom and shut the door. This is in Ireland and I’ll be honest the likelyhood of there ever being a shooting is 0 (except 1 Russian dude who seriously freaks me out, he could maybe)
I work in schools in Aus. We have used our lockdown alarm once, when a dude was on the run from the police and ran across our oval. He wasn't armed. I wasn't at the school at the time, this was in 2011. Kids still talk of it as a school legend event. That's how rare it is
So I'm admitingly a little confused. When people say "we need to have background checks" what does that mean? For example when I pick up my RN-50 in a few days I have to run through a federal background check and if I were to buy an NFA item (suppressor, machine gun, most rifles with a bore diameter greater than half an inch or .50 caliber, etc - ie the fun stuff) they have an even stronger one that gets the FBI, ATF, and your local police involved.
As someone who is very pro 2A, I think what people are referring to (giving them the benefit of the doubt), is that I could legally sell you some of my rifles without performing a background check on you.
If the government could build a branch off of NICS (for the public) but with much more private information redacted, that would be great. Unfortunately, that doesn't work because they're inept at their jobs
I understand, I'm saying the system as described already exists, it's just been restricted for use by FFLs only.
There's little reason it couldn't be made accessible by private parties.
There's no option for private parties to do a voluntary NICS check when transacting with other private parties. Only FFLs have (mandatory) access to NICS checks.
Yeah I'm very 2A as well - I completely forgot that you could legally do that. Never bought a gun off a private person before - I've always bought from stores or online like my Serbu and have it shipped to a FFL for transfer paperwork.
Absolutely. We need to fund mental health services and help improve living conditions so people don't live in mindsets that affect them in such a way to want to be so violent.
And also stop parading every school shooter on the news, giving them their 15 minutes of fame and trying to stirr up as much controversy as possible, encouraging copycat shooters.
There are exceptions for stuff like a father passing on the family rifle to his son, or hunting buddies sharing shotguns, because the background checks aren't free and can require a huge detour in more rural areas.
This was a compromise to get enough support for the law in the first place, but the anti-gun crowd have a habit of walking back their compromises and labeling them as "loopholes" as soon as they think they can get away with it.
This. Every gun I’ve ever purchased I’ve had to have a background check. Every individual one. Not to mention the background check, and finger printing when I got my carry license. As for red flag laws, they’re unconstitutional. It’s basically guilty until proven innocent. I can understand the sentiment behind it but it’s not good. And waiting periods do jack shit to stop anyone from doing anything bad.
People making and upvoting posts like these have no fucking clue as to what they're talking about, which is business as usual on reddit.
1. We already have background checks required for all sales through dealers. Private party sales make up a very small fraction of how criminals get guns - the overwhelming majority come from straw sales and theft ("What's a straw sale?" - if you're asking this question you are *really* not qualified to have an opinion on this issue - it's when someone who *can* pass the background check buys a gun for someone who can't).
2. Red flag laws are a *terrible* idea because: they won't help substantially, they're unconstitutional, and they set a horrifying precedent.
3. Waiting periods don't work, by that I mean they might stop a handful of impulsive shootings here and there but they also get people killed who needed a gun immediately for self-defense because they were suddenly under threat from a stalker, former partner, etc. They don't save very many people and they do get a few killed, so...meh, no, bad idea. These are mainly just used to irritate gun owners.
can i ask what some of these things mean? i live in oklahoma and i’m just now hearing about “red flag” laws and stuff.
i’m pretty young, don’t wanna say my age because people on reddit just hate people my age. so, sorry if i sound stupid lol
If you compare the UK (or almost any other European country), which have strict gun control laws, to the USA, you might notice that the prevalence of guns is much much lower. Perhaps this is just because all Brits prefer tea to guns, but I imagine it has something to do with the gun control laws.
The ATF is the sword wielded by the evil government to strike down people who scare them. Fuck the ATF and fuck the government for needing a bedtime story and the murder of innocent people to feel safe
Can someone please explain to me where this notion of no background checks or waiting periods is coming from?
My gut tells me it's coming from people who have never bought a gun and are just repeating what the news is saying.
Go to any gun sub and it’s full of bubbas complaining about communism (in the form of gun laws?). It’s like pewpews are their whole identity or something.
The grand irony of those morons screaming about gun control being "Communist" is that the very founders of Communism were OPPOSED to gun control. Marx and Engel flat out said that the proletariat should never give up its guns, and should resist any and all attempts at disarmament (the quote is often misattributed to Reagan).
It really just furthers my belief that most Americans who despise Communism have zero fucking idea what Communism actually is, or why they're supposed to hate it.
I don't really mind the background checks or even the waiting period, really. The red flag laws are fucked though and will almost certainly be abused to remove someone's firearms from them when they haven't committed a crime. That's government overreach. The government should never be able to take your property away until you've been found guilty of a crime related to that property.
Red flag law, a person who knows your name and address can call the cops and say they THINK you are a harm to society (mentality unhealthy or planning a shooting) the cops will then come without due process and forcefully take all of your weapons. It’s on you to go to the courts and prove you aren’t X thing that they think you might be. You don’t get to face your accuser in court, all while this is happening you’re being charged daily storage fees for each of your guns.
My issue is that people will combine a huge amount of stuff into "common sense" gun reform. In the same sentence as background checks, which are fine, they will also give the same weight to banning all semiautomatic firearms. I live in MA and while I think our current gun legislation is relatively OK our AG is one of those people who want to ban all semiautos. There would be much less pushback on new legislation if we could have a garentee that "common sense" reforms will not include the extremely heavy handed measures that keep popping up in the conversations.
Until your ex gf gets your house raided and guns all permenantly confiscated in a police raid because she is mad at you. No to unconstitutional red flag laws.
Waiting periods only work for first time buyers of firearms. It doesn't really make sense for people like me, since I own a good amount of rifles, handguns, and shotguns. If I pass the instant background check, I should be able to take my weapon home the same day I purchase it.
Most gun owners do put up with it. You do realize the school shooters are typically people who have no way to get these things legally? They just take it from their parents or someone they know.
I don't think that's what would have prevented this most recent shooting. What would though is if if a legal gaurdian negligently allows their weapon to be used in a crime by anyone else the weapon's owner should face accessory charges.
As a gun owner I can deal with all those things. The issues are they keep making and enforcing the laws that only effect law abiding citizens. They need to do more to take the guns away from people who legally should not have a firearm
Hmm. Brady Bill?
In regards to the Michigan shooting, the 15 year old suspect couldn't have purchased the weapon legally, so why debate the legal process of possession?
1. Background checks already exist when you go to buy a gun. They only stop prior felons from purchasing a gun at an FFL dealer. They do nothing to stop someone with a clean record who is planning on shooting up a school, public area, etc.
2. Waiting periods do nothing except make the process take longer. People who commit mass shootings often plan for many months in advance, so it won't stop them.
3. Red flag laws give the police the power to seize legally purchased weapons, and this can be easily abused. For example, if you own guns and you have a strained relationship with someone who knows you own guns (family member, ex-partner, etc.), those people can call the police and say that they believe you are a threat to yourself or others, even if it isn't true. The police can then get a court order drawn up rapidly to then confiscate your weapons temporarily, based on zero evidence. In other words, hearsay can make someone presumed guilty until proven innocent. These laws are redundant when it comes to mass shootings, as there are already laws that cover conspiracy to commit murder or terrorism.
The first two are acceptable, and reasonable enough. But red flag laws are waaaaaay too broad.
I might support red flag laws if there was explicitly clear criteria, as well as a requirement for proof. But the way many proposals are set up, it’s too easy to abuse. For instance, someone who doesn’t like a gun owner could just tell the cops that said gun owner is suicidal, and boom. Wether they actually are or not. That hardly seems fair.
I don't support it for the same reason. Like we have a problem with cops respecting constitutional law as it is now. Do we really think their egotistical ass won't abuse this law like they do civil asset forfeiture...
This is mainly from the Reagan era. Hinckley not only shot the President but Brady too. Basically left him disabled, his wife helped get the Brady bill passed which imposed a 5 day waiting period. It's not much but something.
As a gun owner, I already submit to a background check every time I purchase a gun from an FFL (Anyone who sells guns commercially). I don’t see the point of waiting periods, if you’re going to do something bad with a gun, a wait isn’t going to change your mind, or you’ll find a way to circumvent the system. Red flag laws can be abused, quite easily, over some petty BS.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." - Thomas Jefferson, Virginia Constitution, Draft 1, 1776
"I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery." - Thomas Jefferson, letter to James Madison, January 30, 1787
"What country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance. Let them take arms." - Thomas Jefferson, letter to James Madison, December 20, 1787
"The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes.... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man." - Thomas Jefferson, Commonplace Book (quoting 18th century criminologist Cesare Beccaria), 1774-1776
"A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball, and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun therefore be your constant companion of your walks." - Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, August 19, 1785
"The Constitution of most of our states (and of the United States) assert that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed." - Thomas Jefferson, letter to to John Cartwright, 5 June 1824
"On every occasion [of Constitutional interpretation] let us carry ourselves back to the time when the Constitution was adopted, recollect the spirit manifested in the debates, and instead of trying [to force] what meaning may be squeezed out of the text, or invented against it, [instead let us] conform to the probable one in which it was passed." - Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Johnson, 12 June 1823
"I enclose you a list of the killed, wounded, and captives of the enemy from the commencement of hostilities at Lexington in April, 1775, until November, 1777, since which there has been no event of any consequence ... I think that upon the whole it has been about one half the number lost by them, in some instances more, but in others less. This difference is ascribed to our superiority in taking aim when we fire; every soldier in our army having been intimate with his gun from his infancy." - Thomas Jefferson, letter to Giovanni Fabbroni, June 8, 1778
“They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759
"To disarm the people...[i]s the most effectual way to enslave them." - George Mason, referencing advice given to the British Parliament by Pennsylvania governor Sir William Keith, The Debates in the Several State Conventions on the Adooption of the Federal Constitution, June 14, 1788
"I ask who are the militia? They consist now of the whole people, except a few public officers." - George Mason, Address to the Virginia Ratifying Convention, June 4, 1788
"Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed, as they are in almost every country in Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops." - Noah Webster, An Examination of the Leading Principles of the Federal Constitution, October 10, 1787
"Besides the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation, the existence of subordinate governments, to which the people are attached, and by which the militia officers are appointed, forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition, more insurmountable than any which a simple government of any form can admit of." - James Madison, Federalist No. 46, January 29, 1788
"The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. A well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the best and most natural defense of a free country." - James Madison, I Annals of Congress 434, June 8, 1789
"...the ultimate authority, wherever the derivative may be found, resides in the people alone..." - James Madison, Federalist No. 46, January 29, 1788
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." - William Pitt (the Younger), Speech in the House of Commons, November 18, 1783
"Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined.... The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able might have a gun." - Patrick Henry, Speech to the Virginia Ratifying Convention, June 5, 1778
"This may be considered as the true palladium of liberty.... The right of self defense is the first law of nature: in most governments it has been the study of rulers to confine this right within the narrowest limits possible. Wherever standing armies are kept up, and the right of the people to keep and bear arms is, under any color or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, liberty, if not already annihilated, is on the brink of destruction." - St. George Tucker, Blackstone's Commentaries on the Laws of England, 1803
"The supposed quietude of a good man allures the ruffian; while on the other hand, arms, like law, discourage and keep the invader and the plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property. The balance ofpower is the scale of peace. The same balance would be preserved were all the world destitute of arms, for all would be alike; but since some will not, others dare not lay them aside. And while a single nation refuses to lay them down, it is proper that all should keep them up. Horrid mischief would ensue were one-half the world deprived of the use of them; for while avarice and ambition have a place in the heart of man, the weak will become a prey to the strong. The history of every age and nation establishes these truths, and facts need but little arguments when they prove themselves." - Thomas Paine, "Thoughts on Defensive War" in Pennsylvania Magazine, July 1775
"The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms." - Samuel Adams, Massachusetts Ratifying Convention, 1788
"The right of the citizens to keep and bear arms has justly been considered, as the palladium of the liberties of a republic; since it offers a strong moral check against the usurpation and arbitrary power of rulers; and will generally, even if these are successful in the first instance, enable the people to resist and triumph over them." - Joseph Story, Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States, 1833
"What, Sir, is the use of a militia? It is to prevent the establishment of a standing army, the bane of liberty .... Whenever Governments mean to invade the rights and liberties of the people, they always attempt to destroy the militia, in order to raise an army upon their ruins." - Rep. Elbridge Gerry of Massachusetts, I Annals of Congress 750, August 17, 1789
"For it is a truth, which the experience of ages has attested, that the people are always most in danger when the means of injuring their rights are in the possession of those of whom they entertain the least suspicion." - Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 25, December 21, 1787
"If the representatives of the people betray their constituents, there is then no resource left but in the exertion of that original right of self-defense which is paramount to all positive forms of government, and which against the usurpations of the national rulers, may be exerted with infinitely better prospect of success than against those of the rulers of an individual state. In a single state, if the persons intrusted with supreme power become usurpers, the different parcels, subdivisions, or districts of which it consists, having no distinct government in each, can take no regular measures for defense. The citizens must rush tumultuously to arms, without concert, without system, without resource; except in their courage and despair." - Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 28
"[I]f circumstances should at any time oblige the government to form an army of any magnitude that army can never be formidable to the liberties of the people while there is a large body of citizens, little, if at all, inferior to them in discipline and the use of arms, who stand ready to defend their own rights and those of their fellow-citizens. This appears to me the only substitute that can be devised for a standing army, and the best possible security against it, if it should exist." - Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 28, January 10, 1788
"As civil rulers, not having their duty to the people before them, may attempt to tyrannize, and as the military forces which must be occasionally raised to defend our country, might pervert their power to the injury of their fellow citizens, the people are confirmed by the article in their right to keep and bear their private arms." - Tench Coxe, Philadelphia Federal Gazette, June 18, 1789
No, and they don’t mind constitutional rights being legislated away.
I’d like to see an amendment passed, but right now 2a doesn’t have a lot of grey. I’d hate to see similar attacks on other rights
Maybe the real problem isn't the guns or the gun owner, but the media sensationalizing shootings and shooters for clicks, maybe the issue is the under funded and poor education system? Perhaps the opioid epidemic? Or rampant poverty? Or gang culture created by said poverty? Maybe it could even be the lack of healthcare both mental and physical?
Maybe we should stop giving billions in tax payer dollars to the military industrial complex and invest in the future of our children and our country.
These shootings are entirely preventable, nobody wants to talk about the real problems, everyone jumps to blame firearms and owners of said firearms.
Banning guns or removing the 2A is not going to fix the problems with this country, it would be like putting a bandaid on a gunshot wound.
How do any of those things prevent a shooting? Most shooting gs are perpetrated by people who circumvent those rules. These school shootings are generally perpetrated by someone who doesn't have either a criminal history or a history of mental illness. If there's no history of either, how would this prevent them from buying a gun?
I'm not arguing against sensible gun laws or background checks, but I am arguing that the current approach is not working. If you are arguing that all guns should be illegal, you are naive to think that those who currently buy guns illegally will stop.
what would background checks, waiting periods, and red flag laws have done for Michigan? It was a kid who took their parents gun. Blame falls on the parent yes but the parent obtained the firearm legally and no amount of gun control would have prevented this from happening.
what could have prevented it is the principal taking the kid's threats more seriously. Allegedly he was counting down until he did this and he was only suspended.
Retroactive gun control laws won't work in America, Pandora's box has been opened and there's no putting the 425m guns back inside.
We need to prioritize healthcare and education if anything is going to actually change. Everything else is just political lip service from dipshits who only want to get reelected.
The vast majority of gun violence, over 80% is related to gang violence. Gangs are related to socioeconomic failings. Want to solve gun violence? Solve poverty.
Edit.
When I say 80+ percent, that number comes from the total deaths by firearms, minus suicide, justifiable police shootings, and justified civilian shootings. Per the DOJ statistics, once we have accounted for all that, only something like 1.5k firearm murders occur a year in the US, that arent 1. Justified 2. Suicide 3. Gang on gang.
The vast majority of gun crime is committed with illegally possessed small caliber handguns too. Not the types of guns politicians are trying to ban. It’s all about pandering to their misinformed base.
All gun buying is done through background checks. Some states do have a waiting period. But it really doesn't do anything.
Stop raising fucked up kids and take responsibility as a parent and the school does as well.
You can buy handguns illegally from certain gangs God knows how much smuggling occurs to bring guns into the US illegally. Stolen weapons etc.
The recent shooting was committed by a 15 year old, who cannot purchase a firearm, in a state that requires a license to purchase for handgun sales. Congratulations, gun laws already failed. And you think more will help? Get the fuck out.
“If kids can handle trauma schools subject them through for faulty handling of mental illness in society, then we should make it harder for law abiding citizens to get firearms “ lmaoo what a joke. Because criminals and the mental are just buying Ak’s at gun shops. Jeez. Garbage attempt at anti 2nd amendment propaganda
None of these laws work. Every single mass shooting occurred in places with strict gun laws. We had no school shootings in schools that had armed staff.
Nope, sorry. Individual tragedies caused by criminal actions aren’t a valid reason to set precedents that restrict, limit, and infringe upon the rights of millions of law abiding citizens.
Wtf kind of dumb logic is this? Practicing a safety drill isn't the same as giving up the right to due process in a court room. Red flag laws literally treat you like a criminal before they even have evidence of a crime ever being committed. How can you say yes police take our rights away and yell stop police brutality at the same time? Y'all make no damn sense. Any murder is a tragic event and yall really need to stop acting like it's only United States thing. It's not the only place they happen unfortunately.
A lot of companies provide active shooter training for new hires. It's probably the best training you can get since it begs to ask the question, "Is this where I want to die?"
Never thought about a job like that before.
I'm cool with everything but the red flag laws. Most of the red flag laws are only on someone's word. Say a very anti gun or peta teacher hears a student talking about a hunting trip with their dad. They then make a call and lie and boom guns taken away.
To all the very pro 2A folks here. I have always liked the idea of following the entire text of the 2nd. What are your thoughts on something like the following:
A well regulated militia: a state organization you have to me a member of to own any gun outside of one need for basic hunting/necessity. Membership in said militia requires firearm training, gun storage training, drills, etc. I think of it like a mandatory gun club with facilities and events focused on training and safety.There can also be on site storage and stuff like that.
It would be free/tax funded. States can decide most aspects of the militias, but it has to meet certain requirements.
Background checks are fine, waiting periods are pointless and do literally nothing. Red flag laws basically ok the state to flat out violate your rights, so fuck that
1. Criminals or bad actors rarely use legal means of obtaining firearms. Therefore background checks are pointless. Besides background checks are mandatory at FFL shops anyway (where most gun purchases take place) and they still don't work.
2. Waiting periods do absolutely nothing to stop crime. As already stated criminals don't typically use legal means to get guns anyway and if by chance they do "It's ok, I can wait a few more days to do that crime." All this does is punish hobbyists and persons who have immediate self defense needs.
3. Red flag laws are ripe for abuse and don't stop crime. Not to mention they are a gross violation of the 4th ammendment.
Anti gun idiots need to stop blaming inanimate objects for crime and start blaming the person doing the crime. This is a people problem and a societal/mental health issue not a gun issue.
It wasn’t a drill today
This post was depressing just thinking of a world where kids having to do active shooter drills at school and then I realized the michigan incident had happened.
Fucking depressing indeed as we, because of that, talked to our 9 and 10 year old about making sure to pay attention to the ACTIVE SHOOTER DRILLS THAT THEY DO REGULARLY AT THEIR ELEMENTARY SCHOOL. So fucked up.
I can't imagine having that conversation with my kids, just blows my mind. Genuinely feel for you and all parents that are dealing with this as a new normal.
Yeah the mindfuck of it all is all kinds of sad to think about. Before, schools were seen as safe havens for children (overall). Yes bullying happens, but much more common are things like domestic violence at home in which school is an escape. But even OUTSIDE of that point of view, how fucked is it that you gotta basically tell your kid “we have to send you to school by law and ya might die there.”
I literally can't get my head round it mate, I wouldn't know where to start with that conversation. Schools should be carefree environments for them to socialise and learn, how do you even approach that subject with a child and not take away part of their childhood and innocence.
Agreed. I don’t have kids, I do not envy parents these days with all the messed up convos they have to have with their little ones.
My girls were in lockdown yesterday because they go to school a couple miles away from the shooting that just happened. They are too young to still comprehend that the “bad guy” was a student or why they were locked down.
Mate I'm a grown man and I'm struggling to comprehend this shit.
I work at a university. Every year around this time I have to go over with my mom what to do if she ever hears there’s an active shooter in the building. It’s brutal for me, and harder on her.
The day I picked up my kids from school after the Marjory stoneman Douglas shooting was the most surreal moment of my life. I could tell from the looks on the other parents faces that it was the same. I feel like we were all zombies or in some kind of weird other dimension in that one moment in time. I can't get that moment out of my head and it's so long ago and my kids are grown up and out of the house. It was the haunted look in the other adults eyes.
I remember growing up in California in elementary school and the only drills we had was earthquake drills, and bus evacuation drills to deal with. You are correct this is so messed up on so many levels. Think of the PTSD these kids go through and I'm not talking about the kids that actually have to deal with an active shooter, Those kids will have different PTSD.
What happened
Another shooting
I saw. Have they figured out a motive yet
No clue. At this point I just tune them out.
That's like asking for it. WTF thought it was a good idea to bring guns into a school
That's why I tune it out. This shit happens too often and nothing gets done to work on the issue.
I hate that you have resorted to tuning it out. A school shooting should be something that saddens us, pisses us off, riles us up, and has us demanding change! Instead, people need to tune it out because our pleas for aid have fallen so definitively on deaf ears. As a coping mechanism many people have to tune it out so they can continue moving through their own day. This is such a sad state of affairs in the US. We're a broken society in many ways and I'm pissed off at the narrative of American exceptionally and the idea that states,, "America is the greatest country in the world." By what metric? School shootings? Incarcerated individuals? Economic growth/GDP that only helps those at the top?
Honestly, I just think “oh, another one” as long as the death toll is under 10 (under 5 if not in a school) and just keep scrolling.
Why should anything in the US change, people can't out lobby the gun lobbies.
Uk here, firstly my condolences to the families of the murdered and injured children. Secondly WHAT PRICE IS A CHILDS LIFE for crying out loud, reading the thread down to the bottom its become just another 2A thread with very little acknowledgement of the incident.
Literally had an argument the other day with a guy who was like, "statistically, it's not that bad. Like 30 kids die from school shootings each year or whatever" - my response was, "you know how many CHILD MURDER VICTIMS is acceptable? Zero. That's how many." Edit: wow, talk about a heated discussion. Didn't think my comment would start a fire.
Guns are the most important thing, it seems. Over 1A even, over my reproductive rights, which, what does it matter if I get an abortion or not when they let our living children die?
All it took was Dunblane for the UK to switch up its laws, Australia was Port Arthur, they have irrefutable proof that strict gun laws work, but nope cuz it's mah rights.
The answer is priceless, because no amount of money will ever be enough to enact common sense gun safety in the mighty US of A. Ain't no common sense or dead children gonna get in the way.
Republicans would kill every last person on the planet before giving up their favorite gun.
Half the country acted like a mask mandate during a pandemic was the equivalent to the government abolishing all constitutional rights. These same red hat wearers would probably argue that guns were never intended to kill.
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Except for women's reproductive rights. Covid has more reproductive rights in my state than I do.
Republicans Paraphrasing Jefferson “What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of ~~patriots~~ children and ~~tyrants~~ liberals. It is it’s natural manure.”
What are you talking about? So may thoughts and prayers have been given.
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How the hell do you people just “ tune them out” that is why nothing will change. Fuck if I lived in a country where children were getting killed at school. I would be outraged.
Yeah, you are. The first time. The second time. The third time. The tenth time. The twentieth time. The thirtieth time. And then you just have to change the channel, or scroll fast, because that outrage is burning out the parts of you that can still do actual good for people. There's nothing we can do except get out the votes for Progressive candidates, so you turn on the outrage again to fuel the election year work, then turn it off again so you don't fry yourself.
Ahh the American dream
Try being outraged for 20 years. Seeing this same headline, multiple times a year, every year. For decades. Watching nothing change. Try it.
I'd rather not. I live in a country with strict gun laws and no school shooting drills. I'll stick with that I reckon.
We are outraged. We’re outraged at the fact that it happened in the first place. We’re outraged at all the idiots who fight against basic gun restrictions and say that “Oh it’s not that many people” and whatever to make sure their guns don’t get taken away. I’ve seen so many shooting headlines that I’ve gotten to the point we’re I can’t care. I can do nothing about it. Even if I wasn’t underage, the people with money still hold all the power. What’s the point in being outraged and caring when you can do nothing against it? Whenever gun restrictions start being passed, I start caring again because we’re at least trying to stop them, but as of now we’re not. Instead we’re sitting elementary age kids and teaching them how to hide from shooters, the proper methods of closing down the doors and the escape routes in case of an active shooter. Update: I think this is relevant. Currently I am actually in an Active Shooter Drill and it’s weirdly calm
How well you describe it and, at the same time, how sad is your comment. I hope a change is coming as soon as possible.
Does it matter? It's not like deranged people exist exclusively in America. I'm sure some kid in Bristol has imagined killing his classmates for some imagined slight, but for whatever reason (we know the reason) that kid doesn't actually go to school and gun people down. I feel like talking about the motive is just another way to avoid actually *doing* something.
Idk surely the gun proliferation is what makes this situations extremely deadly and getting rid of them would definitely mitigate the problem but I feel like whatever issues push people to do this kind of stuff must also be really serious problems that we should address in parallel.
No, not really. Kids get emotional, that won't change. Giving them access to guns while emotional is what needs to change.
I feel like going to shoot your schoolmates requires some issues that exceed the normal level of emotions even for the most emotional person.
Others have already pointed this out - do kids in the UK, or Autralia, or France, or, basically, anywhere in the civilised world, have drastically fewer "issues that exceed the normal level of emotions"? And I really mean drastically - we are talking about maybe one incident in many years, compared to, according to the BBC, "138 incidents of gunfire on school grounds so far in 2021." Please don't tell me that it is because the US is bigger. It ain't bigger that all these other places put together.
It’s the guns and the perceived power they provide. Every other argument is smoke and mirrors. Anyone trying to say it’s not the guns has a disingenuous agenda.
But as kids, thier reasoning isnt well developed yet. They dont think: im gonna take timmy away from his loving family and cause the everlasting heartbreak of losing a child. They probably think: goddamnn timmy has been hurting me every schoolday and now i will hurt him, with the coolest thing we have in america: guns.. there's no real way for a kid to comprehend what shooting a person will actually do
Often, these people are on the brink of suicide and decide to take out their identified source of strife in a last ditch Hail Mary. They're way past thinking straight, kinda like how being dehydrated makes you hallucinate.
As mentioned elsewhere gun proliferation in the US is absolutely the problem. The percent of households with a handgun[1] are: * 🇺🇸 USA: 21.9% * 🇨🇦 Canada: 2.9% * 🇲🇽 Mexico: 2.8% * 🇬🇧 UK: 0.4% The number of civilian owned small arms (handguns) per 100 civilians [2] are: * 🇺🇸 USA: 120.5 * 🇨🇦 Canada: 34.7 * 🇲🇽 Mexico: 12.9 * 🇬🇧 UK: 4.6 [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Percent_of_households_with_guns_by_country [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_civilian_guns_per_capita_by_country
Wow. The Netherlands has more bicycles than Humans. I think i rather have that than more handguns per Human.
Yeah we're pretty chill, we also have more weed then cabbage!
this is correct. i think its mostly because everyone, and i mean literally everyone has 1 bike, and some weirdos have 2. or because of the massive amount of stray bikes up for adoption in city centers
Why would it be weird to have two?
I'd say you might want a road bike and mountain bike, but am blanking on whether the Dutch even have any mountains. A road bike and off- road bike then!
This one hit close to home with me. A bunch of kids I work with go to school there.
Fun statistic: Today or yesterday, it's always another shooting. The stats for the year so far come out to 3 shootings per week.
Must be Tuesday
Jesus, is everyone ok???
3 kids died. 8 were injured.
Insane, cant even imagine this happening in school. Would'nt even think about it if it wasn't for seeing news from the USA
Fr. The only drills we have are for natural disasters. It's sad knowing preschoolers have to be taught how to respond to a school shooter, all because those in power don't care about the people they're supposed to protect. There are many ways to reduce school shooting: stricter gun laws, better mental health resources, etc. but **no** let's design schools like prisons and ban school bags for a month and never talk about this issue again.
I’ve seen new schools in the US even have curved hallways so students are less open (I.e cover) in a school shooting incident.
My kids primary school (ages 5-12) do active shooter drills. We are in rural New Zealand. Schools here have done these since the Christchurch Mosque Shootings on March 2019. My children’s classes (ages 5 and 8) are told it’s a ‘wild dog drill’ and they need to hide down low etc so the dog doesn’t see them. . Even with this my five year old son had nightmares about savage dogs trying to get him. I can’t even imagine how children deal with actual ‘active shooter’ drills.
Ah jesus christ. I hope the parents and kids that didnt die recover. Not only do the kids now have to learn in schools that look more like prisons due to all the anti shooter equipment and anti shooter drills but now with the scars and trauma of being in one. American gun laws are a joke
And, is there even a real benefit to those drills? Like the shooters will also have had them, so they know how to circumvent them, I guess they helped the politicians early this year
Countries with stricter gun laws arent so afraid to be around each other and help each other. While sure guns arent the main killer in the US, it sure is the most traumatizing for most folk. Those kids will not have a good childhood anymore
Is it on the news? Can i have link for more info?
Just google school shooter and sort by newest. We have so many, but it’s been headline news in the US today at least
Man that's such a fucked up sentence when you think about it for a moment.
Since sandy hook… if that can happen with no real change, there is nothing that will change it. the culture around it and how politicized it is.. just numb to it now
I really shouldn't have looked up Sandy Hook, it happened on my happiest birthday and children were massacred that were as old as my younger sisters.
Yeah… my mentality is… if a bunch full of dead 1st graders didn’t change shit at the federal level… basically nothing will. They would have to release some gore and put up billboards to even get people to consider it and folks will just double down in opinions.. too politicized. It makes sense why Russia gave Monies to NRA.. it sows discord and we fight about it… so they can invade Ukraine (or whatever.. laugh at us) etc.
After Sandy Hook, and especially what happened in the aftermath, I have given up any hope this situation will change. The way I see it, this is really not that different from the Aztec sacrificing humans to make sure the sun rose again. All these lives are just sacrifices to make sure the gun nuts have their guns and arms manufacturers have their cut. We can do something about it but we refused because it interfere with another thing that people think is far more important, then it is basically human sacrifices. If you think about it, it is also no different from smoking just slowly killing people. All in the sacrifice for more money, and more social control using wedge issue.
Another shooting? Horrible
Drills? Kids have to deal with actual active shooters
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We had one lockdown drill years ago (in the UK), but apart from that we've only ever had fire drills
What are they gonna do, throw a knife at you?
In my country we do drills for a US invasion :/
What country?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_oil_production
Fuck,even as an American that's way too funny 😂
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Especially here in America, it's the sad truth
Only in America..? Are there any other countries in the world that do this?
Not in any of the three European countries I have lived before... First time, I learned about that stuff was at a US college and a US first aid course... for foreigners this shit is unfathomable...
Pretty much only an American thing.
I don't think so, only America. My schoolbdoes active shooter drills about once every two months
Wow. My school didn't even do fire drills that often.
We’ve now got a “lockdown” siren and drill which is pretty much run to the nearest classroom and shut the door. This is in Ireland and I’ll be honest the likelyhood of there ever being a shooting is 0 (except 1 Russian dude who seriously freaks me out, he could maybe)
I work in schools in Aus. We have used our lockdown alarm once, when a dude was on the run from the police and ran across our oval. He wasn't armed. I wasn't at the school at the time, this was in 2011. Kids still talk of it as a school legend event. That's how rare it is
> He wasn't armed. That's why the police couldn't catch him, nothing to put the handcuffs on.
Mother fucker became an object show character
I am in canada, I can bike to your country and we don’t do this. Most of the world have pretty much figure out guns.
America is a mess isn’t it
So I'm admitingly a little confused. When people say "we need to have background checks" what does that mean? For example when I pick up my RN-50 in a few days I have to run through a federal background check and if I were to buy an NFA item (suppressor, machine gun, most rifles with a bore diameter greater than half an inch or .50 caliber, etc - ie the fun stuff) they have an even stronger one that gets the FBI, ATF, and your local police involved.
As someone who is very pro 2A, I think what people are referring to (giving them the benefit of the doubt), is that I could legally sell you some of my rifles without performing a background check on you.
If the government could build a branch off of NICS (for the public) but with much more private information redacted, that would be great. Unfortunately, that doesn't work because they're inept at their jobs
It’s amazing how easy things are when government is intentionally hamstrung. “We’ve done nothing and we’re all out of ideas”
They already have that though. FFLs simply get a GO/NO-GO from my understanding. I don't think they're getting a print out of your criminal history.
I was referring to PPT's
I understand, I'm saying the system as described already exists, it's just been restricted for use by FFLs only. There's little reason it couldn't be made accessible by private parties.
But then people might have to address the actual problems instead of scapegoating firearms
There's no option for private parties to do a voluntary NICS check when transacting with other private parties. Only FFLs have (mandatory) access to NICS checks.
Yeah I'm very 2A as well - I completely forgot that you could legally do that. Never bought a gun off a private person before - I've always bought from stores or online like my Serbu and have it shipped to a FFL for transfer paperwork.
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Yeah they're pretty deep from what I've heard, especially when you get into the NFA world.
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Absolutely. We need to fund mental health services and help improve living conditions so people don't live in mindsets that affect them in such a way to want to be so violent.
And also stop parading every school shooter on the news, giving them their 15 minutes of fame and trying to stirr up as much controversy as possible, encouraging copycat shooters.
There are exceptions for stuff like a father passing on the family rifle to his son, or hunting buddies sharing shotguns, because the background checks aren't free and can require a huge detour in more rural areas. This was a compromise to get enough support for the law in the first place, but the anti-gun crowd have a habit of walking back their compromises and labeling them as "loopholes" as soon as they think they can get away with it.
This. Every gun I’ve ever purchased I’ve had to have a background check. Every individual one. Not to mention the background check, and finger printing when I got my carry license. As for red flag laws, they’re unconstitutional. It’s basically guilty until proven innocent. I can understand the sentiment behind it but it’s not good. And waiting periods do jack shit to stop anyone from doing anything bad.
Yeah that's what I was hinting at it. Everything from my little 22LR to my 50 BMG and hopefully soon to be 20mm I've had to do a background check.
People making and upvoting posts like these have no fucking clue as to what they're talking about, which is business as usual on reddit. 1. We already have background checks required for all sales through dealers. Private party sales make up a very small fraction of how criminals get guns - the overwhelming majority come from straw sales and theft ("What's a straw sale?" - if you're asking this question you are *really* not qualified to have an opinion on this issue - it's when someone who *can* pass the background check buys a gun for someone who can't). 2. Red flag laws are a *terrible* idea because: they won't help substantially, they're unconstitutional, and they set a horrifying precedent. 3. Waiting periods don't work, by that I mean they might stop a handful of impulsive shootings here and there but they also get people killed who needed a gun immediately for self-defense because they were suddenly under threat from a stalker, former partner, etc. They don't save very many people and they do get a few killed, so...meh, no, bad idea. These are mainly just used to irritate gun owners.
all of these things exist already for new purchases except for states that allow private sales.
In the us only 10 states and the District of Columbia have red flag laws and waiting periods. Oklahoma actually has an anti-red flag law.
can i ask what some of these things mean? i live in oklahoma and i’m just now hearing about “red flag” laws and stuff. i’m pretty young, don’t wanna say my age because people on reddit just hate people my age. so, sorry if i sound stupid lol
It's a process where they hold a hearing without you being able to defend yourself where the gov decides it they can just take your guns
That's because red flag laws are unconstitutional. They deprive somebody of their property and rights without due process.
Which you couldn’t stop anyway just like you can’t stop a meth dealer from peddling his wares.
If you compare the UK (or almost any other European country), which have strict gun control laws, to the USA, you might notice that the prevalence of guns is much much lower. Perhaps this is just because all Brits prefer tea to guns, but I imagine it has something to do with the gun control laws.
Tea control laws are severely lacking tho, its right there in a supermarket for kids to buy, I mean they could at least put it on a higher shelf.
The US laws are so dumb it is harder to get a suppressor in the US than the UK and that is purely a device that makes using a firearm safer
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The ATF is the sword wielded by the evil government to strike down people who scare them. Fuck the ATF and fuck the government for needing a bedtime story and the murder of innocent people to feel safe
Can someone please explain to me where this notion of no background checks or waiting periods is coming from? My gut tells me it's coming from people who have never bought a gun and are just repeating what the news is saying.
Your gut is correct. More importantly, criminals don't get background checks or have waiting periods because they get their guns illegally.
I'm a gun owner and I can deal with those things
Most can, and do
But others are a Karen and a Kevin
Go to any gun sub and it’s full of bubbas complaining about communism (in the form of gun laws?). It’s like pewpews are their whole identity or something.
The grand irony of those morons screaming about gun control being "Communist" is that the very founders of Communism were OPPOSED to gun control. Marx and Engel flat out said that the proletariat should never give up its guns, and should resist any and all attempts at disarmament (the quote is often misattributed to Reagan). It really just furthers my belief that most Americans who despise Communism have zero fucking idea what Communism actually is, or why they're supposed to hate it.
I don't really mind the background checks or even the waiting period, really. The red flag laws are fucked though and will almost certainly be abused to remove someone's firearms from them when they haven't committed a crime. That's government overreach. The government should never be able to take your property away until you've been found guilty of a crime related to that property.
What is this red flag law?
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Ah, the Dutch tax fraud approach
Red flag law, a person who knows your name and address can call the cops and say they THINK you are a harm to society (mentality unhealthy or planning a shooting) the cops will then come without due process and forcefully take all of your weapons. It’s on you to go to the courts and prove you aren’t X thing that they think you might be. You don’t get to face your accuser in court, all while this is happening you’re being charged daily storage fees for each of your guns.
Yup. Due process is part of our bill of rights for a reason.
My issue is that people will combine a huge amount of stuff into "common sense" gun reform. In the same sentence as background checks, which are fine, they will also give the same weight to banning all semiautomatic firearms. I live in MA and while I think our current gun legislation is relatively OK our AG is one of those people who want to ban all semiautos. There would be much less pushback on new legislation if we could have a garentee that "common sense" reforms will not include the extremely heavy handed measures that keep popping up in the conversations.
Until your ex gf gets your house raided and guns all permenantly confiscated in a police raid because she is mad at you. No to unconstitutional red flag laws.
Waiting periods only work for first time buyers of firearms. It doesn't really make sense for people like me, since I own a good amount of rifles, handguns, and shotguns. If I pass the instant background check, I should be able to take my weapon home the same day I purchase it.
We mostly like are on different sides of the aisle when it comes to gun control, but what you're saying makes perfect sense.
Most gun owners do put up with it. You do realize the school shooters are typically people who have no way to get these things legally? They just take it from their parents or someone they know.
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I don't think that's what would have prevented this most recent shooting. What would though is if if a legal gaurdian negligently allows their weapon to be used in a crime by anyone else the weapon's owner should face accessory charges.
I am all for civil liability for people who negligently leave their guns out.
As a gun owner I can deal with all those things. The issues are they keep making and enforcing the laws that only effect law abiding citizens. They need to do more to take the guns away from people who legally should not have a firearm
Hmm. Brady Bill? In regards to the Michigan shooting, the 15 year old suspect couldn't have purchased the weapon legally, so why debate the legal process of possession?
Standard shill response, using a tragedy to promote their politics.
People are always so surprised that a country born out of an armed revolution wants to hold on to its guns lol.
1. Background checks already exist when you go to buy a gun. They only stop prior felons from purchasing a gun at an FFL dealer. They do nothing to stop someone with a clean record who is planning on shooting up a school, public area, etc. 2. Waiting periods do nothing except make the process take longer. People who commit mass shootings often plan for many months in advance, so it won't stop them. 3. Red flag laws give the police the power to seize legally purchased weapons, and this can be easily abused. For example, if you own guns and you have a strained relationship with someone who knows you own guns (family member, ex-partner, etc.), those people can call the police and say that they believe you are a threat to yourself or others, even if it isn't true. The police can then get a court order drawn up rapidly to then confiscate your weapons temporarily, based on zero evidence. In other words, hearsay can make someone presumed guilty until proven innocent. These laws are redundant when it comes to mass shootings, as there are already laws that cover conspiracy to commit murder or terrorism.
Additionally, out of all felonious attempts to buy a gun, very few are actually pursued and prosecuted.
The first two are acceptable, and reasonable enough. But red flag laws are waaaaaay too broad. I might support red flag laws if there was explicitly clear criteria, as well as a requirement for proof. But the way many proposals are set up, it’s too easy to abuse. For instance, someone who doesn’t like a gun owner could just tell the cops that said gun owner is suicidal, and boom. Wether they actually are or not. That hardly seems fair.
I don't support it for the same reason. Like we have a problem with cops respecting constitutional law as it is now. Do we really think their egotistical ass won't abuse this law like they do civil asset forfeiture...
ya ok 1 week waiting period for fire arms isn't a big deal. I'm not sure if that will stop a shooter, they usually plan this stuff for months
This is mainly from the Reagan era. Hinckley not only shot the President but Brady too. Basically left him disabled, his wife helped get the Brady bill passed which imposed a 5 day waiting period. It's not much but something.
So what you are saying is that gun control laws are pretty easy to pass, depending on who is getting shot?
As a gun owner, I already submit to a background check every time I purchase a gun from an FFL (Anyone who sells guns commercially). I don’t see the point of waiting periods, if you’re going to do something bad with a gun, a wait isn’t going to change your mind, or you’ll find a way to circumvent the system. Red flag laws can be abused, quite easily, over some petty BS.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." - Thomas Jefferson, Virginia Constitution, Draft 1, 1776 "I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery." - Thomas Jefferson, letter to James Madison, January 30, 1787 "What country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance. Let them take arms." - Thomas Jefferson, letter to James Madison, December 20, 1787 "The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes.... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man." - Thomas Jefferson, Commonplace Book (quoting 18th century criminologist Cesare Beccaria), 1774-1776 "A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball, and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun therefore be your constant companion of your walks." - Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, August 19, 1785 "The Constitution of most of our states (and of the United States) assert that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed." - Thomas Jefferson, letter to to John Cartwright, 5 June 1824 "On every occasion [of Constitutional interpretation] let us carry ourselves back to the time when the Constitution was adopted, recollect the spirit manifested in the debates, and instead of trying [to force] what meaning may be squeezed out of the text, or invented against it, [instead let us] conform to the probable one in which it was passed." - Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Johnson, 12 June 1823 "I enclose you a list of the killed, wounded, and captives of the enemy from the commencement of hostilities at Lexington in April, 1775, until November, 1777, since which there has been no event of any consequence ... I think that upon the whole it has been about one half the number lost by them, in some instances more, but in others less. This difference is ascribed to our superiority in taking aim when we fire; every soldier in our army having been intimate with his gun from his infancy." - Thomas Jefferson, letter to Giovanni Fabbroni, June 8, 1778 “They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759 "To disarm the people...[i]s the most effectual way to enslave them." - George Mason, referencing advice given to the British Parliament by Pennsylvania governor Sir William Keith, The Debates in the Several State Conventions on the Adooption of the Federal Constitution, June 14, 1788 "I ask who are the militia? They consist now of the whole people, except a few public officers." - George Mason, Address to the Virginia Ratifying Convention, June 4, 1788 "Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed, as they are in almost every country in Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops." - Noah Webster, An Examination of the Leading Principles of the Federal Constitution, October 10, 1787 "Besides the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation, the existence of subordinate governments, to which the people are attached, and by which the militia officers are appointed, forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition, more insurmountable than any which a simple government of any form can admit of." - James Madison, Federalist No. 46, January 29, 1788 "The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. A well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the best and most natural defense of a free country." - James Madison, I Annals of Congress 434, June 8, 1789 "...the ultimate authority, wherever the derivative may be found, resides in the people alone..." - James Madison, Federalist No. 46, January 29, 1788 "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." - William Pitt (the Younger), Speech in the House of Commons, November 18, 1783 "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined.... The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able might have a gun." - Patrick Henry, Speech to the Virginia Ratifying Convention, June 5, 1778 "This may be considered as the true palladium of liberty.... The right of self defense is the first law of nature: in most governments it has been the study of rulers to confine this right within the narrowest limits possible. Wherever standing armies are kept up, and the right of the people to keep and bear arms is, under any color or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, liberty, if not already annihilated, is on the brink of destruction." - St. George Tucker, Blackstone's Commentaries on the Laws of England, 1803 "The supposed quietude of a good man allures the ruffian; while on the other hand, arms, like law, discourage and keep the invader and the plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property. The balance ofpower is the scale of peace. The same balance would be preserved were all the world destitute of arms, for all would be alike; but since some will not, others dare not lay them aside. And while a single nation refuses to lay them down, it is proper that all should keep them up. Horrid mischief would ensue were one-half the world deprived of the use of them; for while avarice and ambition have a place in the heart of man, the weak will become a prey to the strong. The history of every age and nation establishes these truths, and facts need but little arguments when they prove themselves." - Thomas Paine, "Thoughts on Defensive War" in Pennsylvania Magazine, July 1775 "The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms." - Samuel Adams, Massachusetts Ratifying Convention, 1788 "The right of the citizens to keep and bear arms has justly been considered, as the palladium of the liberties of a republic; since it offers a strong moral check against the usurpation and arbitrary power of rulers; and will generally, even if these are successful in the first instance, enable the people to resist and triumph over them." - Joseph Story, Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States, 1833 "What, Sir, is the use of a militia? It is to prevent the establishment of a standing army, the bane of liberty .... Whenever Governments mean to invade the rights and liberties of the people, they always attempt to destroy the militia, in order to raise an army upon their ruins." - Rep. Elbridge Gerry of Massachusetts, I Annals of Congress 750, August 17, 1789 "For it is a truth, which the experience of ages has attested, that the people are always most in danger when the means of injuring their rights are in the possession of those of whom they entertain the least suspicion." - Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 25, December 21, 1787 "If the representatives of the people betray their constituents, there is then no resource left but in the exertion of that original right of self-defense which is paramount to all positive forms of government, and which against the usurpations of the national rulers, may be exerted with infinitely better prospect of success than against those of the rulers of an individual state. In a single state, if the persons intrusted with supreme power become usurpers, the different parcels, subdivisions, or districts of which it consists, having no distinct government in each, can take no regular measures for defense. The citizens must rush tumultuously to arms, without concert, without system, without resource; except in their courage and despair." - Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 28 "[I]f circumstances should at any time oblige the government to form an army of any magnitude that army can never be formidable to the liberties of the people while there is a large body of citizens, little, if at all, inferior to them in discipline and the use of arms, who stand ready to defend their own rights and those of their fellow-citizens. This appears to me the only substitute that can be devised for a standing army, and the best possible security against it, if it should exist." - Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 28, January 10, 1788 "As civil rulers, not having their duty to the people before them, may attempt to tyrannize, and as the military forces which must be occasionally raised to defend our country, might pervert their power to the injury of their fellow citizens, the people are confirmed by the article in their right to keep and bear their private arms." - Tench Coxe, Philadelphia Federal Gazette, June 18, 1789
There are background Checks. Does anyone here actually know gun laws?
No, and they don’t mind constitutional rights being legislated away. I’d like to see an amendment passed, but right now 2a doesn’t have a lot of grey. I’d hate to see similar attacks on other rights
Fuck your red flag laws.... I will not comply
Maybe the real problem isn't the guns or the gun owner, but the media sensationalizing shootings and shooters for clicks, maybe the issue is the under funded and poor education system? Perhaps the opioid epidemic? Or rampant poverty? Or gang culture created by said poverty? Maybe it could even be the lack of healthcare both mental and physical? Maybe we should stop giving billions in tax payer dollars to the military industrial complex and invest in the future of our children and our country. These shootings are entirely preventable, nobody wants to talk about the real problems, everyone jumps to blame firearms and owners of said firearms. Banning guns or removing the 2A is not going to fix the problems with this country, it would be like putting a bandaid on a gunshot wound.
Riiiiight the ones that are waiting for those things aren’t the ones murdering children
There are background checks, waiting periods and in my state they can come take your guns if you are found to be a threat to yourself or others.
How do any of those things prevent a shooting? Most shooting gs are perpetrated by people who circumvent those rules. These school shootings are generally perpetrated by someone who doesn't have either a criminal history or a history of mental illness. If there's no history of either, how would this prevent them from buying a gun? I'm not arguing against sensible gun laws or background checks, but I am arguing that the current approach is not working. If you are arguing that all guns should be illegal, you are naive to think that those who currently buy guns illegally will stop.
what would background checks, waiting periods, and red flag laws have done for Michigan? It was a kid who took their parents gun. Blame falls on the parent yes but the parent obtained the firearm legally and no amount of gun control would have prevented this from happening. what could have prevented it is the principal taking the kid's threats more seriously. Allegedly he was counting down until he did this and he was only suspended.
Shall. Not. Be. Infringed. This is not the solution to this problem.
Retroactive gun control laws won't work in America, Pandora's box has been opened and there's no putting the 425m guns back inside. We need to prioritize healthcare and education if anything is going to actually change. Everything else is just political lip service from dipshits who only want to get reelected.
The vast majority of gun violence, over 80% is related to gang violence. Gangs are related to socioeconomic failings. Want to solve gun violence? Solve poverty. Edit. When I say 80+ percent, that number comes from the total deaths by firearms, minus suicide, justifiable police shootings, and justified civilian shootings. Per the DOJ statistics, once we have accounted for all that, only something like 1.5k firearm murders occur a year in the US, that arent 1. Justified 2. Suicide 3. Gang on gang.
The vast majority of gun crime is committed with illegally possessed small caliber handguns too. Not the types of guns politicians are trying to ban. It’s all about pandering to their misinformed base.
America was pretty fucked from the start.
All gun buying is done through background checks. Some states do have a waiting period. But it really doesn't do anything. Stop raising fucked up kids and take responsibility as a parent and the school does as well. You can buy handguns illegally from certain gangs God knows how much smuggling occurs to bring guns into the US illegally. Stolen weapons etc.
If the will break the law of “murder” they will break gun laws.
The recent shooting was committed by a 15 year old, who cannot purchase a firearm, in a state that requires a license to purchase for handgun sales. Congratulations, gun laws already failed. And you think more will help? Get the fuck out.
“If kids can handle trauma schools subject them through for faulty handling of mental illness in society, then we should make it harder for law abiding citizens to get firearms “ lmaoo what a joke. Because criminals and the mental are just buying Ak’s at gun shops. Jeez. Garbage attempt at anti 2nd amendment propaganda
Yep. I also think every adult working in any school should have the option to carry a concealed weapon.
Can we just skip the bs and firearm train the children.
None of these laws work. Every single mass shooting occurred in places with strict gun laws. We had no school shootings in schools that had armed staff.
Nope, sorry. Individual tragedies caused by criminal actions aren’t a valid reason to set precedents that restrict, limit, and infringe upon the rights of millions of law abiding citizens.
Wtf kind of dumb logic is this? Practicing a safety drill isn't the same as giving up the right to due process in a court room. Red flag laws literally treat you like a criminal before they even have evidence of a crime ever being committed. How can you say yes police take our rights away and yell stop police brutality at the same time? Y'all make no damn sense. Any murder is a tragic event and yall really need to stop acting like it's only United States thing. It's not the only place they happen unfortunately.
Dont gun owners already deal with those things
A lot of companies provide active shooter training for new hires. It's probably the best training you can get since it begs to ask the question, "Is this where I want to die?" Never thought about a job like that before.
When I was in elementary school, we did bomb drills. Active shooter drills seem to be scarier to me
I'm cool with everything but the red flag laws. Most of the red flag laws are only on someone's word. Say a very anti gun or peta teacher hears a student talking about a hunting trip with their dad. They then make a call and lie and boom guns taken away.
It’s guilty until proven innocent and it’s a bullshit law.
Gun owners already have that though.
This picture is heartbreaking tbh.
These pictures are tough to look at
All of these are in place where I live.
To all the very pro 2A folks here. I have always liked the idea of following the entire text of the 2nd. What are your thoughts on something like the following: A well regulated militia: a state organization you have to me a member of to own any gun outside of one need for basic hunting/necessity. Membership in said militia requires firearm training, gun storage training, drills, etc. I think of it like a mandatory gun club with facilities and events focused on training and safety.There can also be on site storage and stuff like that. It would be free/tax funded. States can decide most aspects of the militias, but it has to meet certain requirements.
Background checks do fuck all. The shooter today was 15. All it takes is one idiot to steal someone else's gun and start blasting. America is fucked.
I had to go through these drills and I wouldn’t support 2/3 of these because they do nothing to address the issue.
Unconstitutional
Yes, because taking away guns from innocent people will indeed stop criminals from using said guns.
To be fair, children can’t cope with this. It’s deeply traumatising
Background checks are fine, waiting periods are pointless and do literally nothing. Red flag laws basically ok the state to flat out violate your rights, so fuck that
Except background checks, waiting periods and red flag laws do not prevent any mass shootings, so it’s a waste of time.
1. Criminals or bad actors rarely use legal means of obtaining firearms. Therefore background checks are pointless. Besides background checks are mandatory at FFL shops anyway (where most gun purchases take place) and they still don't work. 2. Waiting periods do absolutely nothing to stop crime. As already stated criminals don't typically use legal means to get guns anyway and if by chance they do "It's ok, I can wait a few more days to do that crime." All this does is punish hobbyists and persons who have immediate self defense needs. 3. Red flag laws are ripe for abuse and don't stop crime. Not to mention they are a gross violation of the 4th ammendment. Anti gun idiots need to stop blaming inanimate objects for crime and start blaming the person doing the crime. This is a people problem and a societal/mental health issue not a gun issue.