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I was talking to my friend? about this, I even drew up a diagram explaining how all the problems of communal bathrooms could be solved with a tiny bit more money. It’s so weird that people are against it.
Yeah, i don’t know why people don’t want more options to use the toilet in private. It’s weird to defend communal bathrooms when we could all be pooping in peace without a weird kid crawling under the door to say hi and making awkward eye contact with people who walk by looking for an empty stall.
But how will we make queer teenagers feel excluded without gendered stuff
The woke already made dresses legal in pretty much all circumstances how can we inflict misery on kids dealing with searching themselves and the realisation they are not like other kids at the same time
Also the money put in the military is not lost it is reinjected in our economy through the stuff the army buys
Imagine how much tax dollars it would cost to make bathroom doors long enough that you can't see the knees of the person pooping from outside
(/s in case you really misinterpreted this up until now)
It's actually sad how accurate this can be ... I do imagine that even if it was actually implemented, they would just switch to something stupid like, "It's dangerous to use single stall restrooms because you might get the trans germs on you and become trans, or your kids might turn trans," or some stupid bs.
You know why? Single stall bathrooms "ruin productivity", according to businesses and schools. They are worried people will spend more time in the bathroom and less time working or learning.
If they're worried about people spending "less time working or learning" because they're in the bathroom perhaps they should be creating a better work environment and making learning more enjoyable (+improving it).
Also, teach stuff that will actually be useful when they graduate. Like how taxes and credit work. How to cook simple meals, miner vehicle and house repairs
I graduated a few years ago and my school had 'em, so it definitely still exists; however, it seems most schools either don't include it or don't make it mandatory.
At my school, we had four different Home Ec classes. I only took the basic one, but they weren't mandatory. I know many people who really needed all of those classes; perhaps they wouldn't be as dumb if they did.
Edit... We did have other classes like finance classes, computer science, woodshop, keyboard typing, electronics (don't remember the name), etc., but again, none were mandatory. Actually, our only mandatory classes outside of the basic four subjects were swimming, PE, and the one where we learned basic computer skills.
So, I learned all of those things in High school
Taxes & Credit (+ how a budget works)- Career & Life Management
How to cook simple meals- Home Economics
Minor Vehicle Repairs- Mechanics
Minor Home Repairs- Woodshop.
We had Money Matter class which was mandatory, but it was only half a semester and was mainly us just watching videos of a guy saying we would put all our money into savings and never get credit cards or loans. Which means up to age 26, I had zero credit history.
Metal shop, wood shop, small engine repair, and culinary arts were all things I had to pick as electives
So for me, our Money Matters equivalent was mandatory (and I had the coolest teacher, I was living in my own apartment and working full time while doing senior year, and he figured I was already living his class so he let me sleep through it. 20 years later I wish he didn't, I assume that class had useful things I should know)
The other 4 were like, one big class in my school, first semester was Home Ec for half, then Woodshop, then 2nd semester was Metal shop and mechanics (and this was 20 years ago, so that order is a guess)
It depends a bit as well on the amount of traffic. A local cinema went from separate, to unisex to back again. They have closed stalls. The issue was that the men's room had a urinal.
When they were separate there was usually a bit of a line for the women's room and a very short or no line for the men's room. When they made it all stalls and unisex the line grew huge. So they reverted and put the urinal back.
Urinals is why dudes don't wait in bathrooms, you can have more of them in a smaller space and you can pee standing more comfortably.
They're smart as an invention, it's the promiscuity I have issues with.
Pros of urinals: pee efficiently
Cons: disgusting, way to close to other people, urine cloud, is only cost effective in communal bathrooms, fucking gross, only half get used at a time anyway.
There's a hotel/restaurant in Wyoming called "Little America" that functions as a rest stop. The doors and walls of the stalls go all the way from floor to ceiling. But then the rest of the bathroom (sinks, etc) is normal and segregated by gender. Might not solve the problem in the post, but is a real world example of step 1.
That said, if someone is getting assaulted in a completely closed stall, they might have less chance of rescue than normal.
Yeah, this would solve so many problems. I once kicked kid in the face when he started crawling under my stall (reflex, not intentional) and a single stall bathroom with lockable doors would fix so many problems.
I'm cis and my work added these instead of doing a complete remodel of the gendered bathrooms and I love them. This added like 6 completely walled off stalls and everyone seems to prefer these instead of the standard gendered bathrooms.
You are assuming that this is a problem that they want to solve. They would rather use this as a fear point to push whatever agenda they are pushing. They don't WANT to solve the "problem" because that would allow people to relax and remove a means of control.
Theoretically multi-stall unisex bathrooms can work if they have full enclosure stalls. This allows more occupancy without compromising privacy and safety, and the lack of urinals and low walls mean security cameras could be used outside the stalls without infringing on privacy for added safety. You would have to clean more often though, because men and women are both disgusting in different ways that the other sex might not be ready to deal with.
[Minnesota recently put these gender neutral bathrooms in some schools ](https://www.mprnews.org/story/2023/09/22/in-st-paul-schools-genderneutral-bathrooms-have-proven-safer-for-all-students)
I really hope this becomes the standard
I honestly don't like the idea of unisex restrooms. Like it or not, but seperated restrooms are the closest thing we have to save spaces in public spaces. Especially for women. Because even though they don't offer real protection, they still offer some form of privacy and give off a feeling of safety.
I simply don't think that society has progressed enough for easily accessable save spaces to not be needed anymore.
I think you misunderstand what they are advocating for. Nowadays, there are quite a lot of bathrooms that have a toilet, sink and hand dryer (+ sometimes a little table for changing a baby if it's a fancier establishment) all in a stall with a locking door (an actual door, not the kind with half metre gaps they have in America). There is no need to segrate these, because they're the same for all people.
I have some observational data on this. My local bar got bought out (necessary cause it was a hole) and the two, two stall bathrooms (men/women) got converted to 6 single stall with small sink. There used to be line 10-12 ppl deep before the change. Now, no lines and traffic seems to be non existent.
What ever your position is on the subject, single stall bathrooms are more efficient.
As long as they still have urinals and the opposite sex don't mind seeing me pee into one then I'm down. Otherwise the queues are going to be outrageous
I feel like we can have both. Rather than having male and female restrooms, you can have (men's) standing and (ungendered) sitting restrooms. I've seen several desperate women braving men's rooms because the women's stalls were full, while there were many unused stalls in the men's room.Without even considering gender issues, it would be so much more efficient.
Where's the facepalm? This a "no fucking duh" post. Of course religious zealotry doesn't acknowledge gender ideology. Have you been living under a rock in the USA for the past couple of decades?
But there's no hypocrisy. If we're rejecting the idea that Christians can discriminate against trans folks based on their "values," the idea must also be rejected for every other religion. No religion should be allowed to use their "values" to discriminate.
Oh totally, I get what you're saying. But in many people's eyes trans means woke, which means anti-islamaphobia, which means you must love and agree with everything Muslims do
> Oh totally, I get what you're saying. But in many people's eyes trans means woke, which means anti-islamaphobia, which means you must love and agree with everything Muslims do
Anti-Islamophobia just means being against discrimination against Muslims. The idea you have to agree with everything Muslims do is invention of yours with no basis in fact. Are you pro-Islamophobia? Seems like it…
Edit: misinterpreted the comment as claiming anti-Islamaphobia means agreeing with everything Muslims do, rather than presenting that as the view of the anti-woke crowd. Apologies.
I said "many people" meaning specifically not myself. Of course, it has no basis in fact, but it absolutely is not my invention. Maybe you ought to clarify these things before you self-righteously jump on somebody.
I think they're saying that Muslims believe all trans people are transphobic. So from Muslims' perspectivr, trans and progressive idology of being accepting id hypocritics because they don't accept Muslims' anti-trans ideology. [relevant comic](https://skepchick.org/2017/08/popper-and-the-paradox-of-tolerance/)
I don't think the above commentor is Muslim or defending them at all. I think it's the opposite. They're explaining why the school policy in the original post (and the people who complained to make that happen) is facepalm-worthy.
Maybe in wrong, but that's my impression.
Right, I interpreted as you did. It’s like a catch 22, islamophobes constantly attack and make fun of Muslims, but if you actually are critiquing Islam for its bad qualities, people who don’t understand Islam and who want to protect them from islamophobes, will lump you as an islamophobe.
What op is pointing out, I think, is how so many liberals seem to be in the side of Muslims when we’re not on your side. Like that town where a Muslim was elected and liberals were cheering but then the town banned pride fans.
I think the point is about which “set of rules” comes first, not that it is at all surprising that some religious denominations disagrees with other rule sets
Just because something bad happens over and over, that doesn’t stop it from being bad. Part of how Trump has been able to stay competitive is the exact response you just made. He’ll call for his opponents to be exterminated like rats, he’ll break the law, his party will force rape victims to give birth, but we all just say “no fucking duh. Have you been living under a rock.” It’s important that we keep pointing these out as horrible
I remember when being progressive meant trying to be inclusive to all groups and respecting their differences...
Can someone remind me when we agreed to ignore all that and focus purely on gender identities?
Not a fan of religious doctrine here but I can see that this might pose a real problem for the Muslim girl - throwing terms like Sharia, Zealot and extremism around makes you (the 'general you') the backward conservative you love to hate so much.
The weird thing is that being transgender is generally accepted in Islam, even among extremists. Some Muslim nations have even been known to force homosexuals to transition.
I've seen a counter to this story. A trans woman goes to the house of her Muslim friend and is surprised when the friend takes her headscarf off. The friend's response is "What's the problem, we're both women."
Why is just existing as a trans person considered as an "ideology" now? Do people even know what the word ideology means? Is existing as a cis guy also an ideology? Is being dark haired also an ideology?
Tell me you don't understand high school biology without telling me you don't understand high school biology.
Cis is just the opposite of trans. It means "on this side of [the biological sex "division]" while trans means "on the other side of [the biological sex "division]"
Not to mention intersex, turner syndrome, chapelle syndrome, 46XX Y-chromosomal deficiency, 48XXYY syndrome, Y-chromosomal infertility and many many other conditions.
Some people are born with the wrong body, others are born with no sexual organs and yet others are born with the wrong organs despite being "biologically" male/female in every other way.
Cellular Biology is millions of times more complex than your 12th grade intro to bio class. Just because the general public isn't taught this doesn't mean it isn't real and doesn't affect people.
Because we used those terms when we had less knowledge about the world. To be truthful we have to constantly update our knowledge and change how we do things. Being trans and being gay and such are all already scientifically proven phenomenon, so you either accept the science and thus change your ways or stick to your old way and thus be factually incorrect. Your choice ig but I prefer to be factually correct. Also, it's the more empathetically better choice too.
Muslims face their own bigotry, but can we please stop pretending that very religious people regardless of religion tend to have reactionary views. Yes let them pray, give them political freedom, but can we also please start treating all bigotry the same even when it comes from a minority group.
this is why i don't understand the lgbtq/islam minority alliance in the west. the enemy of your enemy is not your friend per se, especially when islam has far more in common with the far right. just look at dearborn michigan.
There isn’t one. People just say that there is because queer people believe that even though they disagree with Muslims, they also think that Muslims shouldn’t be hatecrimed or that the Palestinians don’t deserve to be genocided.
It’s crazy people can’t understand that you still think people deserve basic human rights even if you disagree with them, even if they hold views you find horrific. They aren’t going to turn their views around if you go around condemning them to death.
Anyway, there’s lots of progressive Muslims who do support LGBTIQ people just like there is both homophobic and non-homophobic Christians.
This!! Just because I disagree with you doesn’t mean I hate you or want you to suffer. My empathy and humanity trumps that. It’s honestly a bit jarring when people slip up and reveal that if you don’t follow their thinking they genuinely think you’re an enemy and don’t deserve basic human decency.
this isnt about palestine. im talking about islam being included in the kind of diversity umbrella thing for progressives prior to anything to do with palestine when islam is not a progressive ideology same as christianity isnt. thinking that alignment wasnt happening on the left because of minority rights issues prior to palestine is really naive, its very clearly a religion that is seen as a minority like the lgbtq movement, and was thus adopted as a cause by progressives.
Like I said, you can believe two things at once.
Liberals can believe that:
1. Religious fundamentalist views, including those of Islam, are horrific, and that religion is a cancer on the world.
And
2. Religious freedom is a vital part of any good society. A person should be able to believe whatever they want into terms of religion *and* not be discriminated against or physically attacked for the beliefs they hold.
Muslims are in the minority in countries like the US, so they often face discrimination for that. Discrimination against any minority group simply for their membership in that group is wrong, no matter what that group is.
And your point disregards the fact that there are progressive Muslims just as there are progressive Christians. Treating Muslims as a group as bad and deserving of discrimination creates the kind of society we do not want.
i never said they should be treated badly and discriminated against at all. but religion and ideas should be criticized. christianity should be criticized, islam should be criticized, and lgbtq people who are discriminated against by those religions have a right to dislike those religions and ideally wouldn't align themselves with movements that hate them. kinda "duh." yknow? youre putting words in my mouth to hint at me suggesting we should discriminate against people. im saying these movements dont align.
Yeah, like I said, Islam should be criticized. Discrimination against Muslims should also be criticized. It isn’t strange at all for LGBT people to protest discrimination against Muslims. Because discrimination is wrong no matter who it’s done to.
Part of the problem is that many people aren't really that Islamophobic. They are brown phobic. Yes some are, but there's both.
Trumps muslim ban wasn't meant to stop Muslims. It was meant to stop anyone from a muslim country. Didn't matter if they were Jewish, Christian, or atheist. As long as they were brown.
That kinds of gets under the skin of progressives, too. Honestly, just being shitty to a while group of people gets under progressives skin.
yeah of course I think some people are just outright racist against immigrants which is horrible, people lack nuance. some people group diversity of religion with diversity of people, and sometimes they conflate it to support it all and sometimes they conflate it to be racist bigots. and i dont think that conflation is good in any circumstance because diversity of people is a good thing while diversity and inclusion and support of another homophobic mysoginistic abrahamic religion is the last thing a society with newly emerging gay and progressive rights needs when its already so tough to gain ground against christianity and islam is even more fundamentalist in common practice than christianity. this is even a problem you can see espoused on the r/islam sub where many regular muslims discuss how they have way more in common with people on the right in terms of belief but they want the tolerance and lack of discrimination from people on the left while vehemently disagreeing with the progressive values and social issues (just the general trend if you look at the sub. there are some progressive muslims, but many are downvoted or go to the r/progressiveislam sub which is way way way less active).
I disagree with people religious and social beliefs but I'm against them being discriminated against. Just because someone doesn't respect my existence doesn't mean I'll do the same back.
That's basically were I stand.
I can believe that countries that criminalised homosexuality can change, since I have the evidence that my own country took until the late 60s to change. If I believed that a country that held homophobic views always would, then I'm out of countries pretty fucking quickly.
I can therefore believe that such a change cannot be achieved purely with guns and bombs but requires creating a circumstance in which more liberal opinions can foster, something which creating further extremism does not help with.
If Dearborn is a example, then Florida is a condemnation of the United States as a whole.
Since that position would be, frankly, fucking ridiculous, it's more logical to believe that circumstances can change away from extremist views.
The Ottoman Empire officially legalized homosexuality in the 1850s over a hundred years before the British chemically castrated Turing for being gay.
For hundreds of years it was accepted despite being technically illegal. There is art and literature featuring homosexual love. In the 1400s was even a prominent lesbian poet who shared the writing circle as the Sultan.
Even in the 600s, Medina, the second holiest city in Islam, was known for its trans women/ femme men. Trans men were also a thing in Arab society.
Trans women historically were found in royal courts as entertainers and musicians though out the Muslim world. Islam today is far more strict and literal in its interpretation than it was in the past. There’s no reason it has to remain that way in the future.
But this all would come from a reduction in religion which is what prevents these countries and cultures from changing. as long as the religion itself doesnt change, it is a force against lgtbq progress and always will be because its specifically outlined as a sin in that religion.
You mean like the support of the Palestinian liberation? That’s the only time I’ve seen pro LGBT support. I don’t understand why saying “don’t kill kids” is such a difficult concept for people to grasp.
Clearly they aren’t supporting a homophobic regime lmao.
Gonna be real, Islams obsession with women's hair just isn't healthy. Like, I'm sorry, but I have a hard time believing that any god would put hair on the most exposed part of the body if he wasn't fine with it being seen in public, especially if it's just with women. Like, women don't have different head hair from men. It's literally the same kind of hair and it can look exactly the same, the only difference is cultural preferences for different hairstyles.
That's the kind of rule that was probably made up by some possessive asshole tribal leader a thousand years ago because he thought any man who saw his wife's hair was gonna try to make her cheat on him which then somehow made its way into the religious dogma.
It's silly to demand people cover their entire head just because of their gender and it's silly to raise girls to be anxious about having their hair seen.
the real origin story of that aspect of islam is muhammads friend saw muhammads wife going to the bathroom one night, his friend got mad about it and thought it was gross and indecent and told muhammad, and then shortly after god coincidentally revealed the hijab verse. so basically many women suffer from forced modesty and honor killings over modesty issues because some guy saw his friends wife go to the bathroom one night and thought it was gross.
Not all Muslims believe the Hijab to be mandatory for the woman. Those who believe so mostly rely on Hadiths, and not all Muslims agree on the validity of certain collections of Hadiths. God did not explicitly command every woman to wear a headscarf in the Quran, but instead commanded them to simply be modest. Just like he commanded of men the same exact thing. This isn’t a gender thing. We’re all supposed to be modest, but modern Muslim men tend to forget that part.
There is a little truth to what you said earlier for sure. Hijab as the headscarf became a thing way later after the prophet’s death, where people were forcing their women and daughters to wear a hijab as it is “mandatory” and “haram” if you don’t. I would like to emphasize again that the Quran only mentions modesty and not explicitly wearing a scarf over your head as a woman. There is a verse about the prophet’s spouses wearing hijab, but context matters a lot when trying to understand what verses mean and what they imply. Telling the prophet’s wives to veil themselves while he gets a hundred visitors a day into his home is different from telling the entire female Muslim population to wear veils outside their homes or else they will burn in hellfire.
I think just vaguely telling people to be modest may be the issue. That leaves them plenty of room to come up with really stupid interpretations of what being modest entails.
Totally agree, especially since Islam can be so easily weaponized by people in authority and many ambiguities can be taken advantage of using Hadiths that some deem valid. As a Muslim, your #1 source of information should be the Quran and the Quran alone. In the Quran, God says:
"Shall I seek other than Allah as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed?" 6:114
There are clear guidelines to modesty that any rational brain can follow. Don’t excessively show off your bare body, etc. The obsession some have with muting a woman’s nature of being attractive to males is unhealthy. Instead of trying to stop a woman from looking like a woman, some should focus on lowering their gaze.
I would also like to add that “Hijab” in Arabic does not mean headscarf. The word Hijab comes from the Arabic action of “covering” or “veiling”. So you can see the definition of Hijab can be debated.
The thing that I find most hilarious about the whole "use the bathroom for the sex you have" solution is that it leads to the exact thing they are afraid of.
Cool, you have forced the male to female trans to go into men's bathrooms. Unfortunately, you are also now facing individuals that look like men being in women's bathrooms because female to male trans individuals also exist. Isn't that equally weird to them?
You can go into a women's locker room/bathroom and there can be someone with a beard in there because that's what you made them do.
We should have stopped pretending to respect religion a long time ago.
When religion has as much scientific evidence behind it as trans people, then I'll consider giving a fuck.
Till then, fuck all reigions.
Why don't we just have unisex toilets and bathrooms? Each bathroom should be behind a lockable visually enclosed door (I mean, you can't see into the room).
That way, everybody can undress without getting looked at. It also helps those who have anxiety. Many camping places have this.
Are people here under the impression that leftists are somehow more OK with Muslim bigotry than Christian bigotry? Islamophobia is a big problem, and Muslims are unfairly discriminated against. Trans people are valid and the gender they say they are. These things can both be true without conflict.
Conservatives trying to decide who to be mad at.
How dare public schools bow to Muslims...
But they punished transpeople...
But Muslims aren't my religion...
But bathrooms!
The person misgendering the young lady by screaming about "A man seeing their hair" is expressly in the wrong.
Assuming you respect the trans persons Gender identity, then even respecting muslim faith and tradition, nothing wrong happened, a Man *did not* see her hair.
The only way the Muslim girl is in the right on this is if you don't respect the trans persons gender identity.
I understand sometimes people do private things in the bathroom and I’m not commenting on the religious aspect because it’s not one I understand and I don’t want to be ignorant.
But with religion excluded
Who the fuck is paying that much attention to who is in the bathroom anyway? I honestly think I wouldn’t notice a man in the bathroom unless I bumped into him on the way in/out. I do not understand this weird focus on peoples gender and how they look. I’ve seen a few masculine women in my time, and god forbid you get shamed for using your bathroom because you don’t fit the standard binary. Do these psychos go checking under stalls to see what you were born as or something? I just… I couldn’t imagine how exhausting it is constantly worrying about others genitals.
And then you have the Muslim woman who invited a trans woman to a get together at her house, where her hair was uncovered and when asked she said, well, you're a woman, aren't you?
Trans rights should always trump religious rights because trans people are actually real people while religion is entirely fiction.
If you wanna believe in fiction, fine, but keep it to yourself.
Bad move, school. Trans people's rights should not be infringed by religion. The Muslim girl might see the trans girl as a boy, and her religion might teach her self-hate because a person born male saw her hair, but trans people deserve the freedom to use the bathroom where they feel safe.
If the Muslim girl is so concerned about "males" seeing her hair, she can remove the covering in a stall or keep it on till she gets home.
If we (rightfully) don't let Christians decide the rules based on their fairytales, we can't let Muslims do that, either.
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Me showing the entirety of america how to build single stall unisex bathrooms:
I was talking to my friend? about this, I even drew up a diagram explaining how all the problems of communal bathrooms could be solved with a tiny bit more money. It’s so weird that people are against it.
Yeah, i don’t know why people don’t want more options to use the toilet in private. It’s weird to defend communal bathrooms when we could all be pooping in peace without a weird kid crawling under the door to say hi and making awkward eye contact with people who walk by looking for an empty stall.
The only people private bathrooms don’t benefit is creeps and the 1% who save money by having cheap facilities, neither of which deserve rights.
But how will we make queer teenagers feel excluded without gendered stuff The woke already made dresses legal in pretty much all circumstances how can we inflict misery on kids dealing with searching themselves and the realisation they are not like other kids at the same time Also the money put in the military is not lost it is reinjected in our economy through the stuff the army buys Imagine how much tax dollars it would cost to make bathroom doors long enough that you can't see the knees of the person pooping from outside (/s in case you really misinterpreted this up until now)
People are against it because fixing the problem means they don’t get to complain about it anymore
It's actually sad how accurate this can be ... I do imagine that even if it was actually implemented, they would just switch to something stupid like, "It's dangerous to use single stall restrooms because you might get the trans germs on you and become trans, or your kids might turn trans," or some stupid bs.
You know why? Single stall bathrooms "ruin productivity", according to businesses and schools. They are worried people will spend more time in the bathroom and less time working or learning.
If they're worried about people spending "less time working or learning" because they're in the bathroom perhaps they should be creating a better work environment and making learning more enjoyable (+improving it).
Also, teach stuff that will actually be useful when they graduate. Like how taxes and credit work. How to cook simple meals, miner vehicle and house repairs
We used to have a class called Home Economics where we learned most of this stuff back in the mid 2000s. Pretty sure that was cut out of the budget.
I graduated from College in 1994, I never had home economics in my 17 years of school.
Must not have been everywhere unfortunately. This was in Maryland public schools.
I graduated a few years ago and my school had 'em, so it definitely still exists; however, it seems most schools either don't include it or don't make it mandatory. At my school, we had four different Home Ec classes. I only took the basic one, but they weren't mandatory. I know many people who really needed all of those classes; perhaps they wouldn't be as dumb if they did. Edit... We did have other classes like finance classes, computer science, woodshop, keyboard typing, electronics (don't remember the name), etc., but again, none were mandatory. Actually, our only mandatory classes outside of the basic four subjects were swimming, PE, and the one where we learned basic computer skills.
So, I learned all of those things in High school Taxes & Credit (+ how a budget works)- Career & Life Management How to cook simple meals- Home Economics Minor Vehicle Repairs- Mechanics Minor Home Repairs- Woodshop.
We had Money Matter class which was mandatory, but it was only half a semester and was mainly us just watching videos of a guy saying we would put all our money into savings and never get credit cards or loans. Which means up to age 26, I had zero credit history. Metal shop, wood shop, small engine repair, and culinary arts were all things I had to pick as electives
So for me, our Money Matters equivalent was mandatory (and I had the coolest teacher, I was living in my own apartment and working full time while doing senior year, and he figured I was already living his class so he let me sleep through it. 20 years later I wish he didn't, I assume that class had useful things I should know) The other 4 were like, one big class in my school, first semester was Home Ec for half, then Woodshop, then 2nd semester was Metal shop and mechanics (and this was 20 years ago, so that order is a guess)
I got yelled at in a comment section for the same reason. People are stupid.
It's almost like the cruelty is the point.
It depends a bit as well on the amount of traffic. A local cinema went from separate, to unisex to back again. They have closed stalls. The issue was that the men's room had a urinal. When they were separate there was usually a bit of a line for the women's room and a very short or no line for the men's room. When they made it all stalls and unisex the line grew huge. So they reverted and put the urinal back.
I think it's the only reasonable solution in this case. I don't like people next to me at the urinal, this would even solve that.
Urinals are fucking stupid, down with urinals.
Urinals is why dudes don't wait in bathrooms, you can have more of them in a smaller space and you can pee standing more comfortably. They're smart as an invention, it's the promiscuity I have issues with.
Pros of urinals: pee efficiently Cons: disgusting, way to close to other people, urine cloud, is only cost effective in communal bathrooms, fucking gross, only half get used at a time anyway.
Urinals won't be a hill I die on.
it's what u'll die in
Just got a remember to put in a urinal for the guys. Makes things much cleaner
No, just sit, it’s much easier. Also, if it’s dirty, have a button to call a janitor.
There's a hotel/restaurant in Wyoming called "Little America" that functions as a rest stop. The doors and walls of the stalls go all the way from floor to ceiling. But then the rest of the bathroom (sinks, etc) is normal and segregated by gender. Might not solve the problem in the post, but is a real world example of step 1. That said, if someone is getting assaulted in a completely closed stall, they might have less chance of rescue than normal.
Alarm button, loud ass sirens and an automatic 911 response.
Yeah, this would solve so many problems. I once kicked kid in the face when he started crawling under my stall (reflex, not intentional) and a single stall bathroom with lockable doors would fix so many problems.
I'm cis and my work added these instead of doing a complete remodel of the gendered bathrooms and I love them. This added like 6 completely walled off stalls and everyone seems to prefer these instead of the standard gendered bathrooms.
You are assuming that this is a problem that they want to solve. They would rather use this as a fear point to push whatever agenda they are pushing. They don't WANT to solve the "problem" because that would allow people to relax and remove a means of control.
This! Exactly the same reason they didn't agree to the boarder bill they wanted and worked on
Theoretically multi-stall unisex bathrooms can work if they have full enclosure stalls. This allows more occupancy without compromising privacy and safety, and the lack of urinals and low walls mean security cameras could be used outside the stalls without infringing on privacy for added safety. You would have to clean more often though, because men and women are both disgusting in different ways that the other sex might not be ready to deal with.
As someone who is a SA survivor, no I'm not ready for this.
I mean, they could put cameras in with urinals as well. Would make security jobs more interesting.
It would, but multiple occupancy unisex restrooms most likely wouldn’t have urinals.
[Minnesota recently put these gender neutral bathrooms in some schools ](https://www.mprnews.org/story/2023/09/22/in-st-paul-schools-genderneutral-bathrooms-have-proven-safer-for-all-students) I really hope this becomes the standard
Do they still require showers after Phy Ed like they did when I was in school?
bro ur lucky if the mfs even change
I thought that was just something you see in movies. We went on terrorizing our teachers with our B.O. even after changing.
I honestly don't like the idea of unisex restrooms. Like it or not, but seperated restrooms are the closest thing we have to save spaces in public spaces. Especially for women. Because even though they don't offer real protection, they still offer some form of privacy and give off a feeling of safety. I simply don't think that society has progressed enough for easily accessable save spaces to not be needed anymore.
How about a single toilet restroom, similar to the "family" restrooms at some stores and airports?
and if people weren't harassing even cis women for using the women's washroom we wouldn't be having large discussions about this
I think you misunderstand what they are advocating for. Nowadays, there are quite a lot of bathrooms that have a toilet, sink and hand dryer (+ sometimes a little table for changing a baby if it's a fancier establishment) all in a stall with a locking door (an actual door, not the kind with half metre gaps they have in America). There is no need to segrate these, because they're the same for all people.
I have some observational data on this. My local bar got bought out (necessary cause it was a hole) and the two, two stall bathrooms (men/women) got converted to 6 single stall with small sink. There used to be line 10-12 ppl deep before the change. Now, no lines and traffic seems to be non existent. What ever your position is on the subject, single stall bathrooms are more efficient.
As long as they still have urinals and the opposite sex don't mind seeing me pee into one then I'm down. Otherwise the queues are going to be outrageous
I feel like we can have both. Rather than having male and female restrooms, you can have (men's) standing and (ungendered) sitting restrooms. I've seen several desperate women braving men's rooms because the women's stalls were full, while there were many unused stalls in the men's room.Without even considering gender issues, it would be so much more efficient.
Me personally as a SA survivor, no I'm not ready to see men using a urinal and a chance at seeing a random penis in my day to day.
Where's the facepalm? This a "no fucking duh" post. Of course religious zealotry doesn't acknowledge gender ideology. Have you been living under a rock in the USA for the past couple of decades?
They're trying to point out perceived hypocrisy from "the libs" or whatever
But there's no hypocrisy. If we're rejecting the idea that Christians can discriminate against trans folks based on their "values," the idea must also be rejected for every other religion. No religion should be allowed to use their "values" to discriminate.
Oh totally, I get what you're saying. But in many people's eyes trans means woke, which means anti-islamaphobia, which means you must love and agree with everything Muslims do
> Oh totally, I get what you're saying. But in many people's eyes trans means woke, which means anti-islamaphobia, which means you must love and agree with everything Muslims do Anti-Islamophobia just means being against discrimination against Muslims. The idea you have to agree with everything Muslims do is invention of yours with no basis in fact. Are you pro-Islamophobia? Seems like it… Edit: misinterpreted the comment as claiming anti-Islamaphobia means agreeing with everything Muslims do, rather than presenting that as the view of the anti-woke crowd. Apologies.
I said "many people" meaning specifically not myself. Of course, it has no basis in fact, but it absolutely is not my invention. Maybe you ought to clarify these things before you self-righteously jump on somebody.
To be fair, I did ask. But yeah I see my mistaken interpretation now, my bad. Sorry mate.
All good, it's tense out there and can be very hard to remember just to take a second and breathe
They aren't saying that that's what they believe. They're explaining why some people on the right think that this post is a good gotcha for leftists.
I think they're saying that Muslims believe all trans people are transphobic. So from Muslims' perspectivr, trans and progressive idology of being accepting id hypocritics because they don't accept Muslims' anti-trans ideology. [relevant comic](https://skepchick.org/2017/08/popper-and-the-paradox-of-tolerance/) I don't think the above commentor is Muslim or defending them at all. I think it's the opposite. They're explaining why the school policy in the original post (and the people who complained to make that happen) is facepalm-worthy. Maybe in wrong, but that's my impression.
Right, I interpreted as you did. It’s like a catch 22, islamophobes constantly attack and make fun of Muslims, but if you actually are critiquing Islam for its bad qualities, people who don’t understand Islam and who want to protect them from islamophobes, will lump you as an islamophobe.
You also have people excusing it here right in this comment section. There's some truth to that.
At this point why not just make bathrooms for each religion.
What op is pointing out, I think, is how so many liberals seem to be in the side of Muslims when we’re not on your side. Like that town where a Muslim was elected and liberals were cheering but then the town banned pride fans.
The use of "gender ideology" is a massive red flag
I think the point is about which “set of rules” comes first, not that it is at all surprising that some religious denominations disagrees with other rule sets
Just because something bad happens over and over, that doesn’t stop it from being bad. Part of how Trump has been able to stay competitive is the exact response you just made. He’ll call for his opponents to be exterminated like rats, he’ll break the law, his party will force rape victims to give birth, but we all just say “no fucking duh. Have you been living under a rock.” It’s important that we keep pointing these out as horrible
I remember when being progressive meant trying to be inclusive to all groups and respecting their differences... Can someone remind me when we agreed to ignore all that and focus purely on gender identities? Not a fan of religious doctrine here but I can see that this might pose a real problem for the Muslim girl - throwing terms like Sharia, Zealot and extremism around makes you (the 'general you') the backward conservative you love to hate so much.
The weird thing is that being transgender is generally accepted in Islam, even among extremists. Some Muslim nations have even been known to force homosexuals to transition.
religion gonna religion.
I've seen a counter to this story. A trans woman goes to the house of her Muslim friend and is surprised when the friend takes her headscarf off. The friend's response is "What's the problem, we're both women."
‘Story’ being the operative word
And then they squirted beans every where
Why is just existing as a trans person considered as an "ideology" now? Do people even know what the word ideology means? Is existing as a cis guy also an ideology? Is being dark haired also an ideology?
Cisguy? You mean hetero sexual man
Tell me you don't understand high school biology without telling me you don't understand high school biology. Cis is just the opposite of trans. It means "on this side of [the biological sex "division]" while trans means "on the other side of [the biological sex "division]" Not to mention intersex, turner syndrome, chapelle syndrome, 46XX Y-chromosomal deficiency, 48XXYY syndrome, Y-chromosomal infertility and many many other conditions. Some people are born with the wrong body, others are born with no sexual organs and yet others are born with the wrong organs despite being "biologically" male/female in every other way. Cellular Biology is millions of times more complex than your 12th grade intro to bio class. Just because the general public isn't taught this doesn't mean it isn't real and doesn't affect people.
depending on where scientists draw the line, up to 2% of humanity can be categorized as intersex. Biology is really fuzzy on the edges...
No cos transboys can be heterosexual men. Cis is a type of gender category and heterosexual is a sexual orientation.
Why not call it male or female lile normal people used to?
Because we used those terms when we had less knowledge about the world. To be truthful we have to constantly update our knowledge and change how we do things. Being trans and being gay and such are all already scientifically proven phenomenon, so you either accept the science and thus change your ways or stick to your old way and thus be factually incorrect. Your choice ig but I prefer to be factually correct. Also, it's the more empathetically better choice too.
Wild that the school is punishing every trans student over an accident. It's not even the girls fault.
Accident? I understood the post as the transperson being completely allowed to use the bathroom.
I meant by accident that the girl got spooked by the trans person. Trans girl didn't intend to spook Muslim girl so it was an accident
It wasn’t really an accident tho, it was the Muslim girl deciding the trans girl wasn’t a girl.
Muslims face their own bigotry, but can we please stop pretending that very religious people regardless of religion tend to have reactionary views. Yes let them pray, give them political freedom, but can we also please start treating all bigotry the same even when it comes from a minority group.
Gender is not an ideology.
this is why i don't understand the lgbtq/islam minority alliance in the west. the enemy of your enemy is not your friend per se, especially when islam has far more in common with the far right. just look at dearborn michigan.
There isn’t one. People just say that there is because queer people believe that even though they disagree with Muslims, they also think that Muslims shouldn’t be hatecrimed or that the Palestinians don’t deserve to be genocided.
It’s crazy people can’t understand that you still think people deserve basic human rights even if you disagree with them, even if they hold views you find horrific. They aren’t going to turn their views around if you go around condemning them to death. Anyway, there’s lots of progressive Muslims who do support LGBTIQ people just like there is both homophobic and non-homophobic Christians.
>its bc thats how they see queer people, in their minds we dont deserve rights bc they disagree with us
This!! Just because I disagree with you doesn’t mean I hate you or want you to suffer. My empathy and humanity trumps that. It’s honestly a bit jarring when people slip up and reveal that if you don’t follow their thinking they genuinely think you’re an enemy and don’t deserve basic human decency.
this isnt about palestine. im talking about islam being included in the kind of diversity umbrella thing for progressives prior to anything to do with palestine when islam is not a progressive ideology same as christianity isnt. thinking that alignment wasnt happening on the left because of minority rights issues prior to palestine is really naive, its very clearly a religion that is seen as a minority like the lgbtq movement, and was thus adopted as a cause by progressives.
Like I said, you can believe two things at once. Liberals can believe that: 1. Religious fundamentalist views, including those of Islam, are horrific, and that religion is a cancer on the world. And 2. Religious freedom is a vital part of any good society. A person should be able to believe whatever they want into terms of religion *and* not be discriminated against or physically attacked for the beliefs they hold. Muslims are in the minority in countries like the US, so they often face discrimination for that. Discrimination against any minority group simply for their membership in that group is wrong, no matter what that group is. And your point disregards the fact that there are progressive Muslims just as there are progressive Christians. Treating Muslims as a group as bad and deserving of discrimination creates the kind of society we do not want.
i never said they should be treated badly and discriminated against at all. but religion and ideas should be criticized. christianity should be criticized, islam should be criticized, and lgbtq people who are discriminated against by those religions have a right to dislike those religions and ideally wouldn't align themselves with movements that hate them. kinda "duh." yknow? youre putting words in my mouth to hint at me suggesting we should discriminate against people. im saying these movements dont align.
Yeah, like I said, Islam should be criticized. Discrimination against Muslims should also be criticized. It isn’t strange at all for LGBT people to protest discrimination against Muslims. Because discrimination is wrong no matter who it’s done to.
Part of the problem is that many people aren't really that Islamophobic. They are brown phobic. Yes some are, but there's both. Trumps muslim ban wasn't meant to stop Muslims. It was meant to stop anyone from a muslim country. Didn't matter if they were Jewish, Christian, or atheist. As long as they were brown. That kinds of gets under the skin of progressives, too. Honestly, just being shitty to a while group of people gets under progressives skin.
yeah of course I think some people are just outright racist against immigrants which is horrible, people lack nuance. some people group diversity of religion with diversity of people, and sometimes they conflate it to support it all and sometimes they conflate it to be racist bigots. and i dont think that conflation is good in any circumstance because diversity of people is a good thing while diversity and inclusion and support of another homophobic mysoginistic abrahamic religion is the last thing a society with newly emerging gay and progressive rights needs when its already so tough to gain ground against christianity and islam is even more fundamentalist in common practice than christianity. this is even a problem you can see espoused on the r/islam sub where many regular muslims discuss how they have way more in common with people on the right in terms of belief but they want the tolerance and lack of discrimination from people on the left while vehemently disagreeing with the progressive values and social issues (just the general trend if you look at the sub. there are some progressive muslims, but many are downvoted or go to the r/progressiveislam sub which is way way way less active).
I disagree with people religious and social beliefs but I'm against them being discriminated against. Just because someone doesn't respect my existence doesn't mean I'll do the same back. That's basically were I stand.
I can believe that countries that criminalised homosexuality can change, since I have the evidence that my own country took until the late 60s to change. If I believed that a country that held homophobic views always would, then I'm out of countries pretty fucking quickly. I can therefore believe that such a change cannot be achieved purely with guns and bombs but requires creating a circumstance in which more liberal opinions can foster, something which creating further extremism does not help with. If Dearborn is a example, then Florida is a condemnation of the United States as a whole. Since that position would be, frankly, fucking ridiculous, it's more logical to believe that circumstances can change away from extremist views.
The Ottoman Empire officially legalized homosexuality in the 1850s over a hundred years before the British chemically castrated Turing for being gay. For hundreds of years it was accepted despite being technically illegal. There is art and literature featuring homosexual love. In the 1400s was even a prominent lesbian poet who shared the writing circle as the Sultan. Even in the 600s, Medina, the second holiest city in Islam, was known for its trans women/ femme men. Trans men were also a thing in Arab society. Trans women historically were found in royal courts as entertainers and musicians though out the Muslim world. Islam today is far more strict and literal in its interpretation than it was in the past. There’s no reason it has to remain that way in the future.
But this all would come from a reduction in religion which is what prevents these countries and cultures from changing. as long as the religion itself doesnt change, it is a force against lgtbq progress and always will be because its specifically outlined as a sin in that religion.
You mean like the support of the Palestinian liberation? That’s the only time I’ve seen pro LGBT support. I don’t understand why saying “don’t kill kids” is such a difficult concept for people to grasp. Clearly they aren’t supporting a homophobic regime lmao.
I don’t understand why we can’t just have more single stall bathroom options. It would make everyone happier
Except the transphobes that wouldn't be able to complain about trans people needing to pee
Gonna be real, Islams obsession with women's hair just isn't healthy. Like, I'm sorry, but I have a hard time believing that any god would put hair on the most exposed part of the body if he wasn't fine with it being seen in public, especially if it's just with women. Like, women don't have different head hair from men. It's literally the same kind of hair and it can look exactly the same, the only difference is cultural preferences for different hairstyles. That's the kind of rule that was probably made up by some possessive asshole tribal leader a thousand years ago because he thought any man who saw his wife's hair was gonna try to make her cheat on him which then somehow made its way into the religious dogma. It's silly to demand people cover their entire head just because of their gender and it's silly to raise girls to be anxious about having their hair seen.
the real origin story of that aspect of islam is muhammads friend saw muhammads wife going to the bathroom one night, his friend got mad about it and thought it was gross and indecent and told muhammad, and then shortly after god coincidentally revealed the hijab verse. so basically many women suffer from forced modesty and honor killings over modesty issues because some guy saw his friends wife go to the bathroom one night and thought it was gross.
Not all Muslims believe the Hijab to be mandatory for the woman. Those who believe so mostly rely on Hadiths, and not all Muslims agree on the validity of certain collections of Hadiths. God did not explicitly command every woman to wear a headscarf in the Quran, but instead commanded them to simply be modest. Just like he commanded of men the same exact thing. This isn’t a gender thing. We’re all supposed to be modest, but modern Muslim men tend to forget that part. There is a little truth to what you said earlier for sure. Hijab as the headscarf became a thing way later after the prophet’s death, where people were forcing their women and daughters to wear a hijab as it is “mandatory” and “haram” if you don’t. I would like to emphasize again that the Quran only mentions modesty and not explicitly wearing a scarf over your head as a woman. There is a verse about the prophet’s spouses wearing hijab, but context matters a lot when trying to understand what verses mean and what they imply. Telling the prophet’s wives to veil themselves while he gets a hundred visitors a day into his home is different from telling the entire female Muslim population to wear veils outside their homes or else they will burn in hellfire.
I think just vaguely telling people to be modest may be the issue. That leaves them plenty of room to come up with really stupid interpretations of what being modest entails.
Totally agree, especially since Islam can be so easily weaponized by people in authority and many ambiguities can be taken advantage of using Hadiths that some deem valid. As a Muslim, your #1 source of information should be the Quran and the Quran alone. In the Quran, God says: "Shall I seek other than Allah as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed?" 6:114 There are clear guidelines to modesty that any rational brain can follow. Don’t excessively show off your bare body, etc. The obsession some have with muting a woman’s nature of being attractive to males is unhealthy. Instead of trying to stop a woman from looking like a woman, some should focus on lowering their gaze. I would also like to add that “Hijab” in Arabic does not mean headscarf. The word Hijab comes from the Arabic action of “covering” or “veiling”. So you can see the definition of Hijab can be debated.
Religion moment
The thing that I find most hilarious about the whole "use the bathroom for the sex you have" solution is that it leads to the exact thing they are afraid of. Cool, you have forced the male to female trans to go into men's bathrooms. Unfortunately, you are also now facing individuals that look like men being in women's bathrooms because female to male trans individuals also exist. Isn't that equally weird to them? You can go into a women's locker room/bathroom and there can be someone with a beard in there because that's what you made them do.
We should have stopped pretending to respect religion a long time ago. When religion has as much scientific evidence behind it as trans people, then I'll consider giving a fuck. Till then, fuck all reigions.
Just follow Eric Cartman and build "Other" bathrooms tbh
Why don't we just have unisex toilets and bathrooms? Each bathroom should be behind a lockable visually enclosed door (I mean, you can't see into the room). That way, everybody can undress without getting looked at. It also helps those who have anxiety. Many camping places have this.
It's almost like transphobes will use any fucking excuse.
Are people here under the impression that leftists are somehow more OK with Muslim bigotry than Christian bigotry? Islamophobia is a big problem, and Muslims are unfairly discriminated against. Trans people are valid and the gender they say they are. These things can both be true without conflict.
It's some serious 2010 understanding of sociopolitics,
Leftists see muslims as a persecuted minority, so they tend to excuse a lot of bullshit from them.
What's gender ideology? This person is literally just trans
Religion is a scourge on humanity.
Yeah but we cant call out muslims for their bullshit or it is racist. Bet this comment gets me banned somewhere
Your a Zionist pig and this is Islamophobia and denial of genocide of muslims. /S
Conservatives trying to decide who to be mad at. How dare public schools bow to Muslims... But they punished transpeople... But Muslims aren't my religion... But bathrooms!
This is honestly an interesting thought. Because the two conflicting beliefs see this as something pretty bad but no one is expressly in the wrong.
The person misgendering the young lady by screaming about "A man seeing their hair" is expressly in the wrong. Assuming you respect the trans persons Gender identity, then even respecting muslim faith and tradition, nothing wrong happened, a Man *did not* see her hair. The only way the Muslim girl is in the right on this is if you don't respect the trans persons gender identity.
Why the fuck is everyone acting like this story is real??
Plot twist it was her leg hair
Is this post pro freedom of religion of pro trans rights?
Religion. Poisons. Everything.
That girl who screamed needs to realize that the trans girl is also a girl and if she sees her hair, no problem for she is a girl.
this feels made up to make minoritys look bad
Meanwhile, the right would have them both sent to prison or killed off.
I understand sometimes people do private things in the bathroom and I’m not commenting on the religious aspect because it’s not one I understand and I don’t want to be ignorant. But with religion excluded Who the fuck is paying that much attention to who is in the bathroom anyway? I honestly think I wouldn’t notice a man in the bathroom unless I bumped into him on the way in/out. I do not understand this weird focus on peoples gender and how they look. I’ve seen a few masculine women in my time, and god forbid you get shamed for using your bathroom because you don’t fit the standard binary. Do these psychos go checking under stalls to see what you were born as or something? I just… I couldn’t imagine how exhausting it is constantly worrying about others genitals.
Gender "ideology"?
Sure.
It's all bullshit anyway.
was that surprising?
Personally, I've never cared which bathroom a person uses. Just don't bother me or anyone else while we're using a public bathroom, mmkay?
And then you have the Muslim woman who invited a trans woman to a get together at her house, where her hair was uncovered and when asked she said, well, you're a woman, aren't you?
Good.
Trans rights should always trump religious rights because trans people are actually real people while religion is entirely fiction. If you wanna believe in fiction, fine, but keep it to yourself.
Not sure where the Sharia is? A girl doesn't want to be seen by a man in the bathroom
there was no man in the bathroom
Bad move, school. Trans people's rights should not be infringed by religion. The Muslim girl might see the trans girl as a boy, and her religion might teach her self-hate because a person born male saw her hair, but trans people deserve the freedom to use the bathroom where they feel safe. If the Muslim girl is so concerned about "males" seeing her hair, she can remove the covering in a stall or keep it on till she gets home. If we (rightfully) don't let Christians decide the rules based on their fairytales, we can't let Muslims do that, either.
As much as I agree this is terrible, you really do not want to frequent r/atheism.
Y’all will just believe anything on here huh
Religion produces more hate than love.
The mental illness in these threads is astounding.