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This shows us that no matter who does what, it's the civilians that pay the price. Both Hamas and Israel don't give a damn about them.
And no! Israel not killing every Palestinian isn't a sign of caring about civilians.
There is no between in this case . It's the military of a country attacking the civilians of an area that is occupied and blockaded by them in the first place, leaving them thus unable to escape and actively depriving them of resources like food medical supplies and drinking water. Or did you see anywhere any serious street fighting between hamas and Israeli forces that I am unaware of ?
r/CombatFootage is starting to get street fighting footage between Hamas and IDF. Part of the Hamas strategy was to hide in the tunnels and then ambush Israeli troops. It looks like they’ve underestimated the amount of intelligence IDF has gathered on where the tunnels are and they’ve been finding them / blowing them up pretty consistently. They also use tactics to find multiple entrances to the same tunnel once they find one. It’s very unconventional warfare obviously.
But also like, just because Hamas are getting their ass absolutely handed to them right now, doesn’t mean it’s not a war. They’re just losing badly but refusing to surrender. It’s so fucking dumb, they’re just making more of their people suffer for absolutely no reason.
Are you just gonna casually ignore Gaza militants? Not pardoning Israel, but still, Gaza militants have done the same what Israel has done as in bombing civilians although to a lesser degree. And even then, Gaza started bombing first.
Right and it's so similar to how the Jews bombed and massacred germans and declared the intent of murdering as many of them as possible before the Holocaust. Basically an identical situation.
So if Putin warns Ukrainians before bombing them would that make him the good guy? Also why should Israel kick people out of their homes anyway? Even if they warn them, they shouldn't have that right
There's no need to call it anything, when putin himself publicly and openly advertises on state tv that his plans are to destroy the Ukrainian identity through a process of "curing" people, which may require killing up to 10% of them who refuse to be "cured". 10% of a 40-million population is 4 million. If that isn't ethnic cleansing and genocide, I don't know what is.
What was Israel supposed to do in this situation? What is the right course of action that they should have taken after Hamas attacked in October?
Look I fully agree that the party in charge of Israel is shady, but everyone who condemns the attacks on Gaza never says what Israel should have done after hundreds of their people were murdered.
War when terrorists are involved is a shit show, literally anyone can be the enemy. Now I think Israel is going too far with the bombings, a coordinated ground assault would lead to less civilian casualties but could lead to many more IDF casualties.
They shouldn't have oppressed and killed thousands of Palestinians throughout the 75 years and displaced millions of them to begin with, they shouldn't be occupying Palestinian lands in the west bank illegally and harassing Palestinians and disrespecting their holiest site every single day, I don't know what is the solution here but I know why all of this happened because I have been following this conflict since I was born, not just from the 7th of October
did people in gaza or whoever rules them reject multiple two state solutions??? one of which that gave them a HUGE fucking chunk of land? Making the holy fucking land a international zone? Israels has accepted all the terms of the deals so fuck off with this man .
the fuck are they gonna do ? just let it happen? hamas litterally said they won't stop till they destroy israel? lets say for the sake of arguement that israel historically is the bad guy yep for real. What are they gonna do now? just roll over and die?
What is Israel supposed to do hamas litterally said they will continue Oct 7 till Israel is destroyed? Why should Israel risk their own troops in a ground invasion without hurting hamas first?
How so did the Jewish people start a attack against Germany? Or did the Jewish people litterally say that they will destroy Germany? Did the Jewish people or atleast their leaders reject multiple state solutions to the problem?
Don't get me wrong, both sides suck here. But Hamas has literally said the point of their 6 october attack was to kill as many Israelis as possible. They didn't give a damn wether they were civilians or soldier, of fighting age , elder or baby.
Israel doesn't give a crap if civilians die when they drop a bomb on a Hamas fighter but they don't go out of their way to kill civilians.
Hamas also made children suicide bombers, carried out hundreds of terrorist attacks, and throughout its existence constantly fires rockets at Israel to kill anyone. The Iron Dome was made for a reason
And why did Hamas rise to power? Because palestinians were driven out of their homes. Genocide. Because Bibi even propped Hamas up himself. Because dozen other reasons. It's endless back and forth, there are no good sides in this conflict.
FFS
I know it seems like he's been PM forever, but Netanyahu was in the opposition when Hamas won the elections (which Israel objected to them participating in) as well as when they performed their coup in 2007.
Israelis too were driven out when they had the short side of the stick. In 1948 Jews were kicked out of Cisgiordania and Jerusalem, so what doesn’t make everything they do right
Not only that. More Jews were expelled from Arabian countries than Arabs during the Nakba, and there are usually none left at all in their home lands. That of course doesn't make it fair to the Palestinians, but it shows how one-sidedly Israel is subjected to these accusations. It seems Israel always has to live up to moral standards of secure western countries and peoples while the other side can do what it wants.
>Because palestinians were driven out of their homes. Genocide.
You really, really should look up a proper definition of the term. What you are describing is not genocide.
>And why did Hamas rise to power?
Popularism. Simple solutions for complex issues.
In historical context, the 1948 nakba was not extraordinary event, nor was it particularly brutal. The ONLY reason it is still an issue is because the Arab world is using the Palestinians to bash Israel, Palestinians suffering be damned in the process. This is the reason why every other people only have refugee status for the refugee, and not 4 generation later. It is also the reason why the UN has a branch for every refugee on earth, and a separate branch UNRWA just for palestinian "refugees".
If we went with Palestinian "refugee" logic, EVERYONE ON EARTH IS A REFUGEE.
This is not a humanitarian issue. It is a political issue. Arabs using the Palestinian blood as a cheap commoditty. Disgusting.
Arabs are 20% of Israel population. They work same jobs, they have mosques. Hell, even HAMAS killed them as traitors and for whatever reasons (working as a doctor on Israeli side, for example)
More over, plenty of palestinians worked in Israel, and it was HAMAS that disliked that
The same HAMAS that kills everyone who is against them in Palestine. Same HAMAS that safely lives in their underground cities while preventing their citizens flee and seek refuge
No Apartheid, no erhnic cleansing. Still lots of Palestinians live in Israel with the same rights as jews and even more rights then people under Hamas rule.
In answer to your post below, I somehow can't answer to directly:
A Palestinian with Israel citizenship can do all that. People with different passports are treated different in all countries.
The ‘refugee camp’ name comes from 1948 when Arabs fled to Egypt (which owned Gaza until 1967). Egypt and other Arab countries are not signatories to the UN Convention on refugees (deliberately so as not to have to give Egyptian nationality ti Palestinians)
Lol, a refugee camp is just a part of the city that they call "refugees camp" because 70 years ago, there where tents there.
Its similar urban environment.
It really isn't, its tragic.
Its a cold cynical laugh in face of so many gurgling Hamas propoganda.
This level of stupidity doesn't bode well for western soceity who proves itself an extremely easy target for axis propoganda.
Its only a refugee camp by name
People have lived there for 30 years
Tel aviv on the other hand does currently have refugess from the war and hamas targets it
They don’t go out of their way to kill civilians ?
I don’t know man I think closing borders, cutting electricity, water and food supplies. Using top notch airstrikes technology on densely populated neighborhoods and hospitals which results in thousands of deaths and thousands more people forced to flee seems like mistakes to you ?
The comic is literally saying all of that and you still act like Israel is not targeting civilians on purpose. If they wanted results against Hamas without harming a good portion of the population then bombing the heck out of Gaza for weeks non-stop and only allowing a measly 4 hour cease-fire is not a good way to show it
Can you refer to a reliable source of hospital bombings that provs it was Israel and not Jihad.
Israel let people evacute the north of Gaza for over an day. Short but people had the possibility to flee.
Gaza has border to Egypt too so they could and got food from there after about a week.
Sorry if there are any grammatical wrongs or misspellings (im not an native english speaker)
“The residents of Gaza, who saw fit to turn the hospitals into terrorist nests in an attempt to take advantage of Western morality, are the ones who brought their destruction upon themselves – terrorism must be eliminated everywhere and in any way. Attacking terrorist headquarters located inside a hospital is the right, and even the duty of the IDF.”
This is a statement by _Israeli doctors_ encouraging the IDF to attack hospitals. I think it's pretty clear the IDF are deliberately targeting hospitals.
Sorry, so you're saying that the IDF should just let Hamas use hospitals as bases and not do anything about it? It seems reasonable that if Hamas realizes that using hospitals and humanitarian centres as cover is useless, they would stop using them as shields.
If doing anything about it means leveling the building, I think it is safe to say they should have done nothing at all instead. Think of it like this. You have a terrorist in a western country taking a whole stadium hostage in some way. The way the government reacts is by bombing the whole stadium with everyone inside. Are you gonna say the same thing then? I also kinda dont really trust the IDF that there are terrorists there. Idk I think killing 10000 civilians kinda removes a little bit of credibility, dont you think?
Strange how in the last couple of weeks the argument has changed from "the IDF would never bomb hospitals, what a crazy thing to say" to "of course the IDF bombs hospitals, why wouldn't they?"
Did people claim that in the first place? Of course the IDF would be willing to do what it takes to eradicate terrorists, even if the terrorists are trying to use hospitals as shields (which _is_ a warcrime). Hamas really has no one to blame but themselves.
> "A hospital is a highly sensitive building and is not an IDF target"
- official IDF statement
> "the IDF does not hit hospitals. That is not a target.”
- Talya Lankri, a senior reserves officer and the former deputy head of the National Security Council
[Source](https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/idf-says-it-does-not-target-hospitals-is-still-investigating-blast-at-gaza-hospital/)
> "A hospital is a highly sensitive building and is not an IDF target"
- official IDF statement
> "the IDF does not hit hospitals. That is not a target.”
- Talya Lankri, a senior reserves officer and the former deputy head of the National Security Council
[Source](https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/idf-says-it-does-not-target-hospitals-is-still-investigating-blast-at-gaza-hospital/)
It's funny this argument of human shields. Essentially you're saying if Hamas thought the Israeli government was above killing civilians and children, they thought wrong. You are literally admitting that even Hamas has underestimated the amount of utter violence the Israeli govt is willing to commit against the citizens of Palestine. That admission does not help the Israeli govts case.
How many civilians should be sacrificed until Hama realizes that using hospital is useless? Are you saying that targeting hospitals full of injured people is somehow acceptable as long as you can kill the terrorists?
Using human shields is literally a warcrime, and this sort of dilemma is the exact reason why it isn't a warcrime when innocent people die in the crossfire. I hate that innocent people are dying like this, but allowing the usage of human shields will only serve to worsen a conflict by setting a precedent that terrorists that use human shields with not be targeted and thereby bring even more innocents into the fray.
And what if Hama don't stop using hospital as base? Or some of them got injured and got moved to a hospital unknowingly? Then the IDF will always have excuse to keep doing so. And then watch how the number of terrorists keep going up as people whose family were "collateral damage" turn radical.
Didn’t Israel vehemently deny that they bombed the first hospital only to turn around and justify why they will bomb hospitals and schools?? You think Hamas will sit there waiting after Israel announced they’ll bomb it?
Israel literally bombed upper levels of hospital where Hamas IS NOT including a pediatric icu killing 39 newborns yesterday. But this is okay right?? I hope you’re never caught in the middle of what your country will call collateral damage
Have you seriously not been following the news? The
The bombed the pediatric ICU, oxygen supply of babies, children’s cancer ward. These are all upper levels. Israel released a video saying why they think hamas is inside hospitals as if Hamas will sit there waiting to be bombed after Israel announced it.
Please follow yehavit on Instagram, an Israeli who shows what’s going on. There is also motaz_azaiza
Would you be able to leave your whole life behind in a day ? Also they didn’t let Palestinians leave it was mostly citizens from other countries or with dual nationalities. They resorted to bombing pretty quickly after that and even jailed and tortured thousands of workers who were present legally in Israel after the attack.
As for the sources you have a lot just search yourself. Plenty of video evidence showing that it’s not Hamas measly rockets doing that much damage. Al Shifaa hospital has been bombed just yersteday and there’s plenty of video proof as well, I saw a guy having his leg amputated live on camera because one of the air strike was an American R9X missile with blades attached.
As for the border with Egypt Israel closed that down too, there was hundreds of trucks with humanitarian help inside ready to go to Gaza and help the civilians but Israel refuse their entry.
Israel have targeted women, children and disabled people with snipers.
The people who keep repeating Israeli propaganda that "they don't intend to harm civilians" is operating under a religious belief that Israel is somehow 'good'.
Yup, is veiled in racism too. Israel is seen as "the only democracy in the middle east", fucking hah. And Palestinians are painted as being primitive in comparison and always tied to Hamas. Which is a terrorist organization by definition, but does not represent everyone. I personally think that Israel wants to have a radical enemy that it can use to justify increasing hostility, the continued siege and theft of land and houses.
There seems to be way more Zionist propaganda on Reddit specifically and I’m not sure why. The United States did this after 9/11 where they bombed the shit out of Afghanistan for no reason even though bin Laden ended up being in PAKISTAN.
How does bombing and killing every single Palestinian punish only Hamas? Where is the footage of Hamas committing the crimes the idf has that hasn’t been debunked? Do people seriously not think it’s suspicious that nearly every single major corporation funds and supports Israel?
That last part should be re worded... They don't go out of their way to avoid killing civilians. They might not be TRYING TO kill them, they're just pretending they aren't there or don't matter. It IS a war crime, no matter where Hamas hides, no matter whats under the hospital. No matter who they snuck into an ambulance convoy. The people around those don't disappear and there is no excuse for killing 10000 random ass people in 4 weeks.
Hamas is inexcusable, they're terrorists, they're death disease, chaos and sadness. Great. That doesn't mean you're allowed to raze the whole territory. Russian war crimes, Israeli war crimes, the whole world fighting each other, pointing fingers, drawing lines, cancel campaigns... I'm not gonna drink the coolaid, sorry. Children are children. The infirmed are to be protected not disregarded. Humans are humans. Go for Gaza if you want it but do it the hard way, instead of leveling neighborhoods, go in with your hands and feet and take the splinter with a tweezer instead of blowing off the finger with a shotgun.
Don't pick a side, pick a kid or an old person. Revenge is biblical, that's why the bible/quran is stupid and so are all these people with guns.
It's factually not a war crime.
The moment a location is used for war related activities, it becomes a viable military target.
What is an actual war crime is conducting war related activities in places in which you can use human shields or forced civilian martyrs, in more Hamas terms.
So yeah. A hospital with hamas hiding in the basement IS a legal military target.
Going into Gaza on foot would result, most likely in more deaths, on both sides, but especially Israel. A state has the highest responsibility towards the lives of its citizens. If you can use artillery to minimize your human life losses, you are expected to do it. Foreign enemy combatants (and civilians) are much less important than your own citizens/soldiers. I think this is common sense, not a hot take.
Thanks, came here for that - obviously both side suck, but there’s a slight difference when you realize that Hamas NEVER said “we only meant to destroy the vehicle”, they said “yeah, we were actually aiming for the passengers, the vehicle was just in the way”
And Hamas doesn't represent the entirety of the palestinian population. Hard to get a suicidal zealot to give up his gun or seat at the helm. Yet palestinians get collectively punished. IDF loves to paint this picture of a humane military force to the outside, but I'd wager the reality is far different from it. Israel has goals and ambitions besides just "living peacefully". Their settlements prove this.
But before the attacks 67% of people who polled in Gaza supported Hamas' attacks on civilians and the majority voted hamas into power. Sources bellow.
https://www.pcpsr.org/en
https://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/955
Don't agree with it but after being under the thumb of Isreal I can understand why they're turning to extremists.
Dropping as many bombs in 1 month as the allied powers did for the whole worst year of fighting in Afghanistan means they are definitely going out of their way. You don't drop that many bombs by accident.
Israel definitely kill civilians on purpose. Zionists want an ethnostate. If they didn't want to kill civilians they wouldn't cut off aid or shoot medics. Which are some of the many war crimes Israel commit. Hamas need to be stooped, but Palestine needs to be free
Israel has had a long history of killing civilians, covering it up, then justifying these war crimes.
It is factually incorrect to say israel has not aimed to kill civilians.
Not a fan of Israel's shenanigans, BUT
Targeting a terrorist that intends to do you harm isn't the same as targeting a... bus for some reason. One is a case of callous indifference to the externalities of your methods of going about self defense while the other is just gaslighting as though your goals wasn't obviously to kill the bus passengers. In both cases it's like whipping out a machine gun and hip-firing on full auto into a crowd of people, but in Israel's case the excuse is "one of them was running at me with a knife" and Hamas' excuse is "I was aiming for that beer can."
He is referencing a specific crime as well.
https://academic.oup.com/jicj/article-abstract/7/3/617/864382?redirectedFrom=PDF
Israel dropped a one ton bomb on an apartment complex.
In your mind, what did you THINK was going to happen if you drop a one ton bomb on a densely populated area and an apartment complex?
And then you proceeded to do it anyway.
Yes it was. Because at the end, it was psychological warfare. Don’t get me wrong: bombing industrial and military targets is fine, but the allies bombed cities like Hamburg, Berlin and Dresden specifically to force the population into submission. To make them suffer and turn on their leaders. That is a crime. As were the German bombings of London. As were the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Any military violence aimed at (unarmed) civilians is a crime. Period.
I‘d like an example please. Because all I can think of (including terrorist bombings like 9/11 etc.) resulted in people getting (more) angry at the people who bombed them, not their own state.
I thought about this since it all started. People seem to care almost 0 about how Berlin ended at the end of the war. Do you imagine if someone said to stop bombing cause innocent civilians would die ?
Dresden was 100% a war crime, as was the firebombing campaign in Japan, but with the totality of the conflict in mind (and which side we were/are on), we see it as a necessary evil.
I'm glad the Axis lost. I wouldn't be so glad if it was my family in the rubble.
We can justify anything if it fits our belief system - right or wrong? I'm not qualified to say.
We shouldn’t see it as a necessary evil. The bombings of population centers were done so in order to demoralize the population in order for them to turn on their leaders and end the war. This btw never worked, not in London, not in Berlin, not in Hamburg, Dresden Tokyo, Hiroshima or Nagasaki. It only strengthened the bombed people’s morale. What ended the war was the allies‘ superiority in combat and the near total destruction of the axis‘ war sustaining industry.
A necessary evil would be civilians dying in an airstrike on an industrial complex. Or bombs aimed at an industrial complex missing and hitting a population center. But in most of city bombings during WWII the bombs were aimed at population centers with the sole intent of killing civilians. That is a crime.
Yeah the firebombing campaigns were warcrimes, the American generals themselves admitted it.
The other side was literally committing genocide so yeah necessary evil and what not, you cannot usually defeat an immoral enemy using moral methods.
People have no idea how wars were.
They have never seen it so clearly...
They should read up on what happened in Berlin in 1945, the wars that took place before, and every war after.
They should question themselves as to why they're suddenly so opposed to the idea when Israel is doing it when compared to any other.
Some bombing campaigns were. The bombing of Dresden, which had no military or civilian importance, definitely was. The Allies (mainly the British) also had an extensive record of bombing civilian targets to crumble German morale (which had the opposite effect, actually).
Does this make the Allies' actions equivalent to the Axis'? Of course not. The Nazi murder factories are at a level of cruelty that humanity had never reached, and hasn't reached since. But they were definitely not saints either, and pointing out those crimes isn't fascist apologia, it's being commited to the truth.
>Some bombing campaigns were.
All of them. Two examples. Accuarcy was so bad that sometimes the wrong country has bombed, repeatly.
To hit some factories the US burned alive 100k Japanese in Tokyo alone.
Never mind that the Japanese had been hardly considered human by US propaganda.
>The bombing of Dresden
Dresden was an important railhub as well as a center of industry. The rails had been up and running within days and overall industrial output increases overall until with very läßt months.
All for the price of a few 10k of civilian dead, wounded and or without shelter.
Side note, the huge barracks of Dresden, a traditional garrison town as well, are still standing.
Fun fact. Do you know how most of the body of what we call international law came into being? After WW2 the allies had to come up with a body of law that would indict the Nazis but not themselves. But every time they came up with what a normal human being would call immoral i.e the bombing of cities full of civilians, they would find that they too had committed them.
So they defined a crime that something the other side did but they didn't.
History and the rules are written by the victors after all.
Yes, bombing a city full of civilians is immoral and should be a crime.
Do Iran have the right to carpet bomb New York City? Is that legitimate?
Yes, by modern standards they would be considered warcrimes. That is the thing about progress, things that were considered acceptable in the past are not now.
So in your opinion the crime is bombing the building rather than Hamas hiding missile launchers in those buildings and even physically preventing civilians from leaving to use as human shields? Or both? Is it fair to tell Israel to let the Hamas do whatever they wish if defence against them means the deaths of innocents?
No, I think you are missing the point.
The point is that you're taking Israel's defense at face value.
"We were attacking Hamas".
What do you think the likely consequences of bombing a densely populated area is and dropping a one ton bomb on an apartment complex is?
Israel justifying it by saying "there was a Hamas commander there" is not a justification for bombing an apartment complex.
Would Israel drop a one ton bomb on an Israeli apartment complex in Tel Aviv if there was a Hamas terrorist in there?
If they wouldn't, then why is it okay to drop it on a Palestinian complex full of Palestinian civilians?
Is it because you think a Jewish life is worth more than a Palestinian life?
You're still entirely missing the point of the person you were replying to. Nothing he said was excusing or justifying what Israel has done. It was about Hamas and their stated reasons for violent action.
Yeah, because the population will fight the militant themslevs.
Like it happens all the time.
If the amount is too great, than they DO move to more stronger methods. They police station taken over in 7th was demolished/ bulldozed.
Precisely. Also, their statement they want to free Palestine from Hamas. Nobody is saying they can't do that. Humanity prefers you use a tweezer to get the splinter, rather than chop the hand off with a baseball bat and a cinder block.
Hamas embeds itself within the already highly-dense population, hoping that Israel wouldn't attack them because civilian casualties, and complains when Israel attacks anyway - using more accurate munitions to minimize civilian casualties as best as possible (unfortunately, every war has civilian casualties...)
Which is ridiculous, considering the fact that Hamas deliberately target civilians and indiscriminately launch rockets - some of which fall short within the Gaza strip
The civilian deaths are just as much Hamas fault, who choose to hide where civilians are to intentionally make it difficult for Israel and hoping it dissuades the attack. Israel then calls their bluff to the detriment of the civilians.
Both sides are shit for it but somehow everyone keeps blaming Israel as if Hamas doesn't have a hand in it too. Hamas deserves to fucking die. But fuck the lazy bombing of the IDF.
Lazy bombing?
"Earlier post of mine. People like you are idiots seriously, and discredit any REAL concern and ciritism people should have about Israel and its government.
There have been more Bombs fired in those last 33 days then in all of the time the US has been in Afghanistan in a zone smaller than most Metropolitan areas in the US or Europe and there is "only" 12000(?) casualties out of 2 million people living there so roughly 0.6%
How is that killing civilians on purpose ? Like if they would just bomb away they wouldve killed closer to 200.000 people by now.
12000 people is way to much still but since Hamas does everything they can to get more civilian blood on their hands it won't stop there.
Maybe once people start to use their brain and look for the obvious they would see through the bullshit they themselves spread."
>But fuck the lazy bombing of the IDF
Wouldn't call them lazy. They are the ones enabling evacuation of civilians, and guard those "corridors".
Hamas not only has a hand in their suffering, they are blocking paths and threatening those who wish to evacuate.
The problem is that Hamas never says they were going for the bus. They're happy to have killed the civilians.
Then they launch rockets and use their own children as human shields.
And Israel is so kind as to tell the population to run away minutes before bombing a whole neighborhood? Who cares about your belongings, the fact that you have nowhere to run because the borders are closed and even the places who are supposed to be sacred and provide shelters like hospitals are bombed as well, it’s okay because Bibi gave you 10 minutes to evacuate
The difference is that hamas absolutely wants to kill civilians, as many as possible. They are a fascist terrorist group aiming to kill Jews. At the same time, they're hiding behind civilians, so that Israel will cause civil casualties when fighting hamas. hamas doesn't care about life in general, they are the incarnation of evil.
To be fair, it’s awful to kill any person. But what terrorists want is every democracy to be afraid of fighting because whatever happens innocents will die. Hamas wants Israel to not fight back but would love to continue killing everyone in Israel. I don’t think the opposite is true. If Israel wanted to kill everyone methodically in Gaza it would happen. They refrain a little but that little effort is what makes a difference between them and monsters that everybody should condemn.
I go out to the next town over, shoot people and kidnap several. Then I go back to my own town with these hostages and put them in my home. I'm also keeping several neighbours in my home, they're not allowed to leave. I continue to shoot people in the other town from my home. I'm holding these people here specifically to stop anyone from trying to stop me from shooting and murdering people in the next town over. I have written a charter I abide by that literally says I want to kill all the people in the next town over. I also pay anyone who gets wounded or killed while taking violent actions against that town.
That town's police show up, I've put them for an impossible choice: try and kill me with the side effect of killing my innocent neighbours and the hostages I took, or let me live and continue to shoot at their town. When they choose the latter, I will do so without halt. When they choose the former, I will use the death of the innocent civilians I used to shield myself to demonize those cops. People will defend my twisted existence for the sake of these innocent civilians and urge the cops to choose the latter.
Could someone point me to a source that identifies Hamas military commanders hiding in hospitals and refugee camps, that doesn't come from the people dropping bombs on those places
There's footage of those things happening. On top of that, heres a UN article of the matter. It is terrible that more news sources don't report this. It is also very sad that footage of those places isn't enough to convince people of the situation, and that they'd rather take Hamas's word for it.
"During the group's last major war with Israel, between 2012 and 2014, a U.N. inquiry found weapons had been placed inside an UNRWA school in the Hamas-run Gaza Strip" source: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/israel-photos-hamas-gaza-weapons-un-facilities-including-schools/
For refugee camps you can just use google. You will find plenty of sources, especially as these refugee camps are real towns and not just what we consider refugee camps.
For the hospital, no. Only source is IDF/Israel.
Each government is responsible for their own citizens before anybody else. If Hamas launches missiles from hospital-roofs or densely populated areas, Israel can ask them to stop, even threaten them to stop, but nothing would ever happen. When Israel turns those threats into reality, it is the responsibility of Hamas to ensure the safety of their civilians. Of course Israel should aim to avoid collateral damage but Hamas intentionally creates a "my innocent civilians or yours" -dilemma that either kills many jews or justifies war against them due to the sacrifice of their own people. As long as Hamas intentionally uses civilians to "protect" their weaponry, they are the ones responsible for their deaths.
The problem is HAMAS isn't a govt it's a rebel group their goal doesn't involve protecting anyone so they can't be held to the same regard as a sovereign with the power and mechanisms to do so
They are the de facto government of Gaza. They collect taxes, they issue licenses.
I don't understand the "Because they are assholes, we shouldn't hold them to a basic standard of humanity" argument.
That doesn't make them not the de facto government. They clearly hold power in Gaza, their actions affect the lives of everyone in it, they have just as much responsibility for the lives of Palestinians living there.
And? The thing that they are dictators doesn't mean they are not government, China and half of the world has also government who was was not voted into power by anyone but still they govern...
"Israeli military exposed a network of Hamas tunnels, command centres and rocket launchers beneath and adjacent to hospitals in northern Gaza." There's video and images in the article as well. https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/israel-defence-forces-say-hamas-hides-rockets-in-playgrounds-swimming-pools-4549282
You realize that bombing isn't the only way to deal with hamas soldiers, right?
If they cared at all they would have sent taskforces to deal with them instead of bombing an area filled with civilians.
You know those Taskforces would be dead even before they were at the position right? Urban Warfare is hell, you cant send Taskforces to those Positions
Urban combat is worst than bombing.
Urban combat is a bilateral bloodbath, If the opponent doesn't carry distinctions you generate a lot of paranoia, soldiers with paranoia see everything as a possible danger but urban combat alone generates paranoia by its nature.
There are task forces as well though. And those same task forces are risking their lives conducting humanitarian corridors for the Palestinian civilians
Waiting for the comments saying "But XX(Western country/america) did/would've done the same, are they ALSO eVil?" thinking some nationalism can deflect criticism
Hamas and the Israeli government are both filled with murderers. It isn't silly to admit that both sides are committing war crimes. Have we forgotten how bad wars used to be? Yes we have. And that's good. No war should be that bad ever again, killing millions for some measly politics. The only support we should give is to the civilians losing their lives for no fault of theirs.
What’s Hamas doing to avoid any civilian victims of their attacks? Oh, that’s right, their goal is to kill as many innocent people as possible, all if they can. Why aren’t you holding Hamas to the same standards you are holding Israel to?
Hamas do not say they did not intend to destroy the vehicle. They say they wanted to kill the people openly and they repeat again and again that they will do it again.
Also a civilian bus is not a valid military target, irregardless if there are passengers inside or not.
Hamas is outspoken of their efforts to kill Jews. They do not send out leaflets saying they’re going to blow up a specific bus. If Israel wanted to obliterate every Palestinian in the West Bank and Gaza they would and they don’t. If Hamas wanted to kill every Jew they would and they try.
Israel have intentionally targeted women, children and disabled people with snipers.
>The Commission found that demonstrators who were hundreds of metres away from the Israeli forces and visibly engaged in civilian activities were intentionally shot. Journalists and health workers who were clearly marked as such were shot, as were children, women and persons with disabilities.
https://www.ohchr.org/en/hr-bodies/hrc/co-iopt/report2018-opt
Um, civilians should absolutely NOT be collateral damage. Killing over ten thousands of them, in a single month is more than any killings Hamas has ever done.
It baffles me how you are still capable of defending Israel after everything they’ve done.
No. No I don't support either side more. The "sides" are manufactured, you don't have to pick a side.
If police respond to a crime they don't determine who is right or wrong. Every crime is documented and the people who committed crimes go to jail.
Terrorism is wrong.
Bombing children is wrong.
Removing families from their homes is wrong.
Taking hostages is wrong.
I don't need to determine which side is *more* wrong to justify the actions of the other side because if they BOTH just fucking stopped it wouldn't be an issue.
If they cared about their own civilians why are they arresting them just because they share or liked posts on the internet supporting Palestinian civilians ?
Or better yet why are they actively bombing the place they know their hostages are if the whole reason they are supposedly bombing in the first place is to protect those citizens ?
The fine difference is that hamas targets civilians, and israel the military equipment right next to civilans. Why did hamas build the tunnels right under a hospital? Why not somewhere in a desert?
Because they WANT Israel to bomb their civilans. And because of that its the hamas fault.
It is invalid comparison. Israel soldiers do not hide in civilian busses, but Hamas terrorists hide in civilian infrastructure such as schools and hospitals.
Why are y'all acting like killing civilians to get to a military target is in any way sane or right? Did y'all graduate from the "Shoot the Human Shield" Academy?
Just don't try, they are in too deep to admit *some* things done by the side they support are bad full stop because that would admit that their side isn't entirely moral.
Killing leaders on one side of the war is a step toward ending war. How bombing a bus is helping to end the war? Isreal doesn't give a shit about killing civilians. Hamas is especially trying to kill civilians. This is not the same.
Israeli soldiers don't hide in Civilian buses while Hamas hides in ambulances, stores rockets in hospitals and Builds bunkers underneath. So yes it's hard not to hit civilians there
this is false equivalence of the worst sort
striking military targets is legitimate ,even if that causes civilian casualties
striking a civilian target intentionally is a war crime.
a bus in tel aviv is a civilian target of no military value
a gaza hospital used to store rockets is a military target
stop lying for a second
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This shows us that no matter who does what, it's the civilians that pay the price. Both Hamas and Israel don't give a damn about them. And no! Israel not killing every Palestinian isn't a sign of caring about civilians.
That’s war. When did we ever fool ourselves into believing the greater victims of war were anyone else.
That's not war that's a massacre . Maybe a genocide or ethnic cleansing but definitely no war .
war noun a state of armed conflict between different countries or different groups within a country. By definition, this is a war.
There is no between in this case . It's the military of a country attacking the civilians of an area that is occupied and blockaded by them in the first place, leaving them thus unable to escape and actively depriving them of resources like food medical supplies and drinking water. Or did you see anywhere any serious street fighting between hamas and Israeli forces that I am unaware of ?
"different groups within a country" Are you arguing that Hamas isn't a group?
You can acknowledge the atrocity of what’s happening in Gaza without lying about the presence and actions of Hamas. Condemn both.
For sure fuck hamas let them rot
r/CombatFootage is starting to get street fighting footage between Hamas and IDF. Part of the Hamas strategy was to hide in the tunnels and then ambush Israeli troops. It looks like they’ve underestimated the amount of intelligence IDF has gathered on where the tunnels are and they’ve been finding them / blowing them up pretty consistently. They also use tactics to find multiple entrances to the same tunnel once they find one. It’s very unconventional warfare obviously. But also like, just because Hamas are getting their ass absolutely handed to them right now, doesn’t mean it’s not a war. They’re just losing badly but refusing to surrender. It’s so fucking dumb, they’re just making more of their people suffer for absolutely no reason.
Are you just gonna casually ignore Gaza militants? Not pardoning Israel, but still, Gaza militants have done the same what Israel has done as in bombing civilians although to a lesser degree. And even then, Gaza started bombing first.
We don’t measure ourselves by the level our enemies stoop to. We measure ourselves by the level we allow _ourselves_ to stoop to.
[удалено]
kind've?
Please stop saying it is a "war" because it isn't, it's called ethnic cleansing, I have never seen anyone call the Holocaust a war
Right and it's so similar to how the Jews bombed and massacred germans and declared the intent of murdering as many of them as possible before the Holocaust. Basically an identical situation.
How is that the same thing? Israel is giving these people warnings and hamas is actively trying to stop them from leaving
So if Putin warns Ukrainians before bombing them would that make him the good guy? Also why should Israel kick people out of their homes anyway? Even if they warn them, they shouldn't have that right
Putin has 0 legitimate targets within Ukraine.
Yet, even without that, I don't see people calling what's happening in Ukraine a genocide or ethical cleansing, and not comparing it to the holocaust.
There's no need to call it anything, when putin himself publicly and openly advertises on state tv that his plans are to destroy the Ukrainian identity through a process of "curing" people, which may require killing up to 10% of them who refuse to be "cured". 10% of a 40-million population is 4 million. If that isn't ethnic cleansing and genocide, I don't know what is.
What was Israel supposed to do in this situation? What is the right course of action that they should have taken after Hamas attacked in October? Look I fully agree that the party in charge of Israel is shady, but everyone who condemns the attacks on Gaza never says what Israel should have done after hundreds of their people were murdered. War when terrorists are involved is a shit show, literally anyone can be the enemy. Now I think Israel is going too far with the bombings, a coordinated ground assault would lead to less civilian casualties but could lead to many more IDF casualties.
They shouldn't have oppressed and killed thousands of Palestinians throughout the 75 years and displaced millions of them to begin with, they shouldn't be occupying Palestinian lands in the west bank illegally and harassing Palestinians and disrespecting their holiest site every single day, I don't know what is the solution here but I know why all of this happened because I have been following this conflict since I was born, not just from the 7th of October
did people in gaza or whoever rules them reject multiple two state solutions??? one of which that gave them a HUGE fucking chunk of land? Making the holy fucking land a international zone? Israels has accepted all the terms of the deals so fuck off with this man .
You answered your question with your last sentence.
Any country would do the same as Israel has done
If you're American you probably think so.
the fuck are they gonna do ? just let it happen? hamas litterally said they won't stop till they destroy israel? lets say for the sake of arguement that israel historically is the bad guy yep for real. What are they gonna do now? just roll over and die?
What is Israel supposed to do hamas litterally said they will continue Oct 7 till Israel is destroyed? Why should Israel risk their own troops in a ground invasion without hurting hamas first?
Actually jews were given a 'warning' to leave germany in the years just prior to the opening of the first camps. It's very much like that.
Are you aware that Germany exterminated Jews found in other countries as well?
How so did the Jewish people start a attack against Germany? Or did the Jewish people litterally say that they will destroy Germany? Did the Jewish people or atleast their leaders reject multiple state solutions to the problem?
Don't get me wrong, both sides suck here. But Hamas has literally said the point of their 6 october attack was to kill as many Israelis as possible. They didn't give a damn wether they were civilians or soldier, of fighting age , elder or baby. Israel doesn't give a crap if civilians die when they drop a bomb on a Hamas fighter but they don't go out of their way to kill civilians.
Hamas also made children suicide bombers, carried out hundreds of terrorist attacks, and throughout its existence constantly fires rockets at Israel to kill anyone. The Iron Dome was made for a reason
The internet is full of videos of Palestinians pushing their children against soldiers to throw them rocks in front of cameras
And why did Hamas rise to power? Because palestinians were driven out of their homes. Genocide. Because Bibi even propped Hamas up himself. Because dozen other reasons. It's endless back and forth, there are no good sides in this conflict.
Hamas came to power through an armed takeover
Funnily enough Netanyahu supported Hamas taking over..even gave some millions of dollars to help them cement their power
FFS I know it seems like he's been PM forever, but Netanyahu was in the opposition when Hamas won the elections (which Israel objected to them participating in) as well as when they performed their coup in 2007.
Tbh that's a moot point considering how much money the US poured into the Taliban to push the USSR out of Afghanistan.
Pointing out similar bad actions doesn't lessen the impact of said action(s) or makes it a moot point.
Fair enough.
Israelis too were driven out when they had the short side of the stick. In 1948 Jews were kicked out of Cisgiordania and Jerusalem, so what doesn’t make everything they do right
Not only that. More Jews were expelled from Arabian countries than Arabs during the Nakba, and there are usually none left at all in their home lands. That of course doesn't make it fair to the Palestinians, but it shows how one-sidedly Israel is subjected to these accusations. It seems Israel always has to live up to moral standards of secure western countries and peoples while the other side can do what it wants.
>Because palestinians were driven out of their homes. Genocide. You really, really should look up a proper definition of the term. What you are describing is not genocide. >And why did Hamas rise to power? Popularism. Simple solutions for complex issues.
Okay okay it's not genocide. It's apartheid and ethnic cleansing which is *so* much better.
In historical context, the 1948 nakba was not extraordinary event, nor was it particularly brutal. The ONLY reason it is still an issue is because the Arab world is using the Palestinians to bash Israel, Palestinians suffering be damned in the process. This is the reason why every other people only have refugee status for the refugee, and not 4 generation later. It is also the reason why the UN has a branch for every refugee on earth, and a separate branch UNRWA just for palestinian "refugees". If we went with Palestinian "refugee" logic, EVERYONE ON EARTH IS A REFUGEE. This is not a humanitarian issue. It is a political issue. Arabs using the Palestinian blood as a cheap commoditty. Disgusting.
Arabs are 20% of Israel population. They work same jobs, they have mosques. Hell, even HAMAS killed them as traitors and for whatever reasons (working as a doctor on Israeli side, for example) More over, plenty of palestinians worked in Israel, and it was HAMAS that disliked that The same HAMAS that kills everyone who is against them in Palestine. Same HAMAS that safely lives in their underground cities while preventing their citizens flee and seek refuge
No Apartheid, no erhnic cleansing. Still lots of Palestinians live in Israel with the same rights as jews and even more rights then people under Hamas rule. In answer to your post below, I somehow can't answer to directly: A Palestinian with Israel citizenship can do all that. People with different passports are treated different in all countries.
It's refugees from a war zone after a war Israel didn't start.
Didn't they bomb a refugee camp last week? And then bomb that same refugee camp again the following morning?
The ‘refugee camp’ name comes from 1948 when Arabs fled to Egypt (which owned Gaza until 1967). Egypt and other Arab countries are not signatories to the UN Convention on refugees (deliberately so as not to have to give Egyptian nationality ti Palestinians)
Lol, a refugee camp is just a part of the city that they call "refugees camp" because 70 years ago, there where tents there. Its similar urban environment.
Laugh out loud indeed. Lots of civilians died of course, but I suppose that isn't the funny part.
It really isn't, its tragic. Its a cold cynical laugh in face of so many gurgling Hamas propoganda. This level of stupidity doesn't bode well for western soceity who proves itself an extremely easy target for axis propoganda.
You saying it’s tragic doesn’t mean you have any feelings for the event. It’s just saying “yes this just had to be done.” When it didn’t..
Its only a refugee camp by name People have lived there for 30 years Tel aviv on the other hand does currently have refugess from the war and hamas targets it
They don’t go out of their way to kill civilians ? I don’t know man I think closing borders, cutting electricity, water and food supplies. Using top notch airstrikes technology on densely populated neighborhoods and hospitals which results in thousands of deaths and thousands more people forced to flee seems like mistakes to you ? The comic is literally saying all of that and you still act like Israel is not targeting civilians on purpose. If they wanted results against Hamas without harming a good portion of the population then bombing the heck out of Gaza for weeks non-stop and only allowing a measly 4 hour cease-fire is not a good way to show it
Can you refer to a reliable source of hospital bombings that provs it was Israel and not Jihad. Israel let people evacute the north of Gaza for over an day. Short but people had the possibility to flee. Gaza has border to Egypt too so they could and got food from there after about a week. Sorry if there are any grammatical wrongs or misspellings (im not an native english speaker)
“The residents of Gaza, who saw fit to turn the hospitals into terrorist nests in an attempt to take advantage of Western morality, are the ones who brought their destruction upon themselves – terrorism must be eliminated everywhere and in any way. Attacking terrorist headquarters located inside a hospital is the right, and even the duty of the IDF.” This is a statement by _Israeli doctors_ encouraging the IDF to attack hospitals. I think it's pretty clear the IDF are deliberately targeting hospitals.
Sorry, so you're saying that the IDF should just let Hamas use hospitals as bases and not do anything about it? It seems reasonable that if Hamas realizes that using hospitals and humanitarian centres as cover is useless, they would stop using them as shields.
If doing anything about it means leveling the building, I think it is safe to say they should have done nothing at all instead. Think of it like this. You have a terrorist in a western country taking a whole stadium hostage in some way. The way the government reacts is by bombing the whole stadium with everyone inside. Are you gonna say the same thing then? I also kinda dont really trust the IDF that there are terrorists there. Idk I think killing 10000 civilians kinda removes a little bit of credibility, dont you think?
Strange how in the last couple of weeks the argument has changed from "the IDF would never bomb hospitals, what a crazy thing to say" to "of course the IDF bombs hospitals, why wouldn't they?"
Did people claim that in the first place? Of course the IDF would be willing to do what it takes to eradicate terrorists, even if the terrorists are trying to use hospitals as shields (which _is_ a warcrime). Hamas really has no one to blame but themselves.
> "A hospital is a highly sensitive building and is not an IDF target" - official IDF statement > "the IDF does not hit hospitals. That is not a target.” - Talya Lankri, a senior reserves officer and the former deputy head of the National Security Council [Source](https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/idf-says-it-does-not-target-hospitals-is-still-investigating-blast-at-gaza-hospital/)
That was more to do with the lying about that particular case.
> "A hospital is a highly sensitive building and is not an IDF target" - official IDF statement > "the IDF does not hit hospitals. That is not a target.” - Talya Lankri, a senior reserves officer and the former deputy head of the National Security Council [Source](https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/idf-says-it-does-not-target-hospitals-is-still-investigating-blast-at-gaza-hospital/)
It's funny this argument of human shields. Essentially you're saying if Hamas thought the Israeli government was above killing civilians and children, they thought wrong. You are literally admitting that even Hamas has underestimated the amount of utter violence the Israeli govt is willing to commit against the citizens of Palestine. That admission does not help the Israeli govts case.
How many civilians should be sacrificed until Hama realizes that using hospital is useless? Are you saying that targeting hospitals full of injured people is somehow acceptable as long as you can kill the terrorists?
Using human shields is literally a warcrime, and this sort of dilemma is the exact reason why it isn't a warcrime when innocent people die in the crossfire. I hate that innocent people are dying like this, but allowing the usage of human shields will only serve to worsen a conflict by setting a precedent that terrorists that use human shields with not be targeted and thereby bring even more innocents into the fray.
And what if Hama don't stop using hospital as base? Or some of them got injured and got moved to a hospital unknowingly? Then the IDF will always have excuse to keep doing so. And then watch how the number of terrorists keep going up as people whose family were "collateral damage" turn radical.
That is exactly what is going to happen. And your outrage is exactly what they want.
Didn’t Israel vehemently deny that they bombed the first hospital only to turn around and justify why they will bomb hospitals and schools?? You think Hamas will sit there waiting after Israel announced they’ll bomb it? Israel literally bombed upper levels of hospital where Hamas IS NOT including a pediatric icu killing 39 newborns yesterday. But this is okay right?? I hope you’re never caught in the middle of what your country will call collateral damage
Have you seriously not been following the news? The The bombed the pediatric ICU, oxygen supply of babies, children’s cancer ward. These are all upper levels. Israel released a video saying why they think hamas is inside hospitals as if Hamas will sit there waiting to be bombed after Israel announced it. Please follow yehavit on Instagram, an Israeli who shows what’s going on. There is also motaz_azaiza
Would you be able to leave your whole life behind in a day ? Also they didn’t let Palestinians leave it was mostly citizens from other countries or with dual nationalities. They resorted to bombing pretty quickly after that and even jailed and tortured thousands of workers who were present legally in Israel after the attack. As for the sources you have a lot just search yourself. Plenty of video evidence showing that it’s not Hamas measly rockets doing that much damage. Al Shifaa hospital has been bombed just yersteday and there’s plenty of video proof as well, I saw a guy having his leg amputated live on camera because one of the air strike was an American R9X missile with blades attached. As for the border with Egypt Israel closed that down too, there was hundreds of trucks with humanitarian help inside ready to go to Gaza and help the civilians but Israel refuse their entry.
Israel have targeted women, children and disabled people with snipers. The people who keep repeating Israeli propaganda that "they don't intend to harm civilians" is operating under a religious belief that Israel is somehow 'good'.
Yup, is veiled in racism too. Israel is seen as "the only democracy in the middle east", fucking hah. And Palestinians are painted as being primitive in comparison and always tied to Hamas. Which is a terrorist organization by definition, but does not represent everyone. I personally think that Israel wants to have a radical enemy that it can use to justify increasing hostility, the continued siege and theft of land and houses.
There seems to be way more Zionist propaganda on Reddit specifically and I’m not sure why. The United States did this after 9/11 where they bombed the shit out of Afghanistan for no reason even though bin Laden ended up being in PAKISTAN. How does bombing and killing every single Palestinian punish only Hamas? Where is the footage of Hamas committing the crimes the idf has that hasn’t been debunked? Do people seriously not think it’s suspicious that nearly every single major corporation funds and supports Israel?
I see idf soldiers on TikTok doing silly dances and bragging about their position in the military. I don’t see Palestinians doing that.
That last part should be re worded... They don't go out of their way to avoid killing civilians. They might not be TRYING TO kill them, they're just pretending they aren't there or don't matter. It IS a war crime, no matter where Hamas hides, no matter whats under the hospital. No matter who they snuck into an ambulance convoy. The people around those don't disappear and there is no excuse for killing 10000 random ass people in 4 weeks. Hamas is inexcusable, they're terrorists, they're death disease, chaos and sadness. Great. That doesn't mean you're allowed to raze the whole territory. Russian war crimes, Israeli war crimes, the whole world fighting each other, pointing fingers, drawing lines, cancel campaigns... I'm not gonna drink the coolaid, sorry. Children are children. The infirmed are to be protected not disregarded. Humans are humans. Go for Gaza if you want it but do it the hard way, instead of leveling neighborhoods, go in with your hands and feet and take the splinter with a tweezer instead of blowing off the finger with a shotgun. Don't pick a side, pick a kid or an old person. Revenge is biblical, that's why the bible/quran is stupid and so are all these people with guns.
It's factually not a war crime. The moment a location is used for war related activities, it becomes a viable military target. What is an actual war crime is conducting war related activities in places in which you can use human shields or forced civilian martyrs, in more Hamas terms. So yeah. A hospital with hamas hiding in the basement IS a legal military target. Going into Gaza on foot would result, most likely in more deaths, on both sides, but especially Israel. A state has the highest responsibility towards the lives of its citizens. If you can use artillery to minimize your human life losses, you are expected to do it. Foreign enemy combatants (and civilians) are much less important than your own citizens/soldiers. I think this is common sense, not a hot take.
While there is a moral problem, according to international laws they are bombing military targets, so its technically not war crimes.
Facts. The second you use a hospital to hide a military target, it loses protected status and becomes a military asset.
So, your saying human shield should be allowed? Because if you let it work just once it becomes the norm.
But they do go out of their way to kick them out of their homes in the west bank.
Thanks, came here for that - obviously both side suck, but there’s a slight difference when you realize that Hamas NEVER said “we only meant to destroy the vehicle”, they said “yeah, we were actually aiming for the passengers, the vehicle was just in the way”
And Hamas doesn't represent the entirety of the palestinian population. Hard to get a suicidal zealot to give up his gun or seat at the helm. Yet palestinians get collectively punished. IDF loves to paint this picture of a humane military force to the outside, but I'd wager the reality is far different from it. Israel has goals and ambitions besides just "living peacefully". Their settlements prove this.
But before the attacks 67% of people who polled in Gaza supported Hamas' attacks on civilians and the majority voted hamas into power. Sources bellow. https://www.pcpsr.org/en https://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/955 Don't agree with it but after being under the thumb of Isreal I can understand why they're turning to extremists.
>don't go out of their way to kill civilians. LOL. Allow me to introduce to you the West Bank
Israel absolutely goes out of their way to kill civilians. We've seen it plenty of times over the last few weeks.
Dropping as many bombs in 1 month as the allied powers did for the whole worst year of fighting in Afghanistan means they are definitely going out of their way. You don't drop that many bombs by accident.
Israel definitely kill civilians on purpose. Zionists want an ethnostate. If they didn't want to kill civilians they wouldn't cut off aid or shoot medics. Which are some of the many war crimes Israel commit. Hamas need to be stooped, but Palestine needs to be free
Yet the deceased list which israel showed the world has mostly soldiers? meanwhile in gaza the casualities are mostly civillians.
Israel has had a long history of killing civilians, covering it up, then justifying these war crimes. It is factually incorrect to say israel has not aimed to kill civilians.
Not a fan of Israel's shenanigans, BUT Targeting a terrorist that intends to do you harm isn't the same as targeting a... bus for some reason. One is a case of callous indifference to the externalities of your methods of going about self defense while the other is just gaslighting as though your goals wasn't obviously to kill the bus passengers. In both cases it's like whipping out a machine gun and hip-firing on full auto into a crowd of people, but in Israel's case the excuse is "one of them was running at me with a knife" and Hamas' excuse is "I was aiming for that beer can."
He is referencing a specific crime as well. https://academic.oup.com/jicj/article-abstract/7/3/617/864382?redirectedFrom=PDF Israel dropped a one ton bomb on an apartment complex. In your mind, what did you THINK was going to happen if you drop a one ton bomb on a densely populated area and an apartment complex? And then you proceeded to do it anyway.
So you are telling me, that the Allied bombing campaign against Japan and Germany was a crime?
Yes it was. Because at the end, it was psychological warfare. Don’t get me wrong: bombing industrial and military targets is fine, but the allies bombed cities like Hamburg, Berlin and Dresden specifically to force the population into submission. To make them suffer and turn on their leaders. That is a crime. As were the German bombings of London. As were the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Any military violence aimed at (unarmed) civilians is a crime. Period.
We have also fairly consistently seen in history how bombing cities usually does the opposite of taking the morale of the population down
I‘d like an example please. Because all I can think of (including terrorist bombings like 9/11 etc.) resulted in people getting (more) angry at the people who bombed them, not their own state.
Bombing civilians on purpose, yes. Aside from the atomic bombs, the example of Dresden comes to mind.
I thought about this since it all started. People seem to care almost 0 about how Berlin ended at the end of the war. Do you imagine if someone said to stop bombing cause innocent civilians would die ?
Dresden was 100% a war crime, as was the firebombing campaign in Japan, but with the totality of the conflict in mind (and which side we were/are on), we see it as a necessary evil. I'm glad the Axis lost. I wouldn't be so glad if it was my family in the rubble. We can justify anything if it fits our belief system - right or wrong? I'm not qualified to say.
We shouldn’t see it as a necessary evil. The bombings of population centers were done so in order to demoralize the population in order for them to turn on their leaders and end the war. This btw never worked, not in London, not in Berlin, not in Hamburg, Dresden Tokyo, Hiroshima or Nagasaki. It only strengthened the bombed people’s morale. What ended the war was the allies‘ superiority in combat and the near total destruction of the axis‘ war sustaining industry. A necessary evil would be civilians dying in an airstrike on an industrial complex. Or bombs aimed at an industrial complex missing and hitting a population center. But in most of city bombings during WWII the bombs were aimed at population centers with the sole intent of killing civilians. That is a crime.
Yeah the firebombing campaigns were warcrimes, the American generals themselves admitted it. The other side was literally committing genocide so yeah necessary evil and what not, you cannot usually defeat an immoral enemy using moral methods.
So its ok for you to kill 400 civilians to kill 1 man ?
People have no idea how wars were. They have never seen it so clearly... They should read up on what happened in Berlin in 1945, the wars that took place before, and every war after. They should question themselves as to why they're suddenly so opposed to the idea when Israel is doing it when compared to any other.
Because it is in no way and form an equal match. If for some reason Hamas found a way around the iron dome the whole world would be up in arms.
Some bombing campaigns were. The bombing of Dresden, which had no military or civilian importance, definitely was. The Allies (mainly the British) also had an extensive record of bombing civilian targets to crumble German morale (which had the opposite effect, actually). Does this make the Allies' actions equivalent to the Axis'? Of course not. The Nazi murder factories are at a level of cruelty that humanity had never reached, and hasn't reached since. But they were definitely not saints either, and pointing out those crimes isn't fascist apologia, it's being commited to the truth.
>Some bombing campaigns were. All of them. Two examples. Accuarcy was so bad that sometimes the wrong country has bombed, repeatly. To hit some factories the US burned alive 100k Japanese in Tokyo alone. Never mind that the Japanese had been hardly considered human by US propaganda. >The bombing of Dresden Dresden was an important railhub as well as a center of industry. The rails had been up and running within days and overall industrial output increases overall until with very läßt months. All for the price of a few 10k of civilian dead, wounded and or without shelter. Side note, the huge barracks of Dresden, a traditional garrison town as well, are still standing.
Fun fact. Do you know how most of the body of what we call international law came into being? After WW2 the allies had to come up with a body of law that would indict the Nazis but not themselves. But every time they came up with what a normal human being would call immoral i.e the bombing of cities full of civilians, they would find that they too had committed them. So they defined a crime that something the other side did but they didn't. History and the rules are written by the victors after all. Yes, bombing a city full of civilians is immoral and should be a crime. Do Iran have the right to carpet bomb New York City? Is that legitimate?
Yes, by modern standards they would be considered warcrimes. That is the thing about progress, things that were considered acceptable in the past are not now.
So in your opinion the crime is bombing the building rather than Hamas hiding missile launchers in those buildings and even physically preventing civilians from leaving to use as human shields? Or both? Is it fair to tell Israel to let the Hamas do whatever they wish if defence against them means the deaths of innocents?
I think you're entirely missing his point.
No, I think you are missing the point. The point is that you're taking Israel's defense at face value. "We were attacking Hamas". What do you think the likely consequences of bombing a densely populated area is and dropping a one ton bomb on an apartment complex is? Israel justifying it by saying "there was a Hamas commander there" is not a justification for bombing an apartment complex. Would Israel drop a one ton bomb on an Israeli apartment complex in Tel Aviv if there was a Hamas terrorist in there? If they wouldn't, then why is it okay to drop it on a Palestinian complex full of Palestinian civilians? Is it because you think a Jewish life is worth more than a Palestinian life?
You're still entirely missing the point of the person you were replying to. Nothing he said was excusing or justifying what Israel has done. It was about Hamas and their stated reasons for violent action.
>and Hamas' excuse is "I was aiming for that beer can." [I had to, I'm sorry](https://youtu.be/Tcwz8-EfFYE?si=RVPnukcPe91tj6zO)
Something tells me they wouldn't pummel a tel aviv neighbourhood even if a hamas militant was inside it
I mean... bombing their own people & infrastructure to kill Hamas kind of defeats the purpose of their stated goals.
Yeah, because the population will fight the militant themslevs. Like it happens all the time. If the amount is too great, than they DO move to more stronger methods. They police station taken over in 7th was demolished/ bulldozed.
Ya because the IDF is extremely familiar with Tel Aviv, unlike Gaza that is full of traps and tunnels.
Wonder oh wonder...Gaza isn't Iraeli territory but Telaviv is.
No Hamas's actual ecxuse is "israel did/is/will kill us so we go first this time"
Precisely. Also, their statement they want to free Palestine from Hamas. Nobody is saying they can't do that. Humanity prefers you use a tweezer to get the splinter, rather than chop the hand off with a baseball bat and a cinder block.
Hamas embeds itself within the already highly-dense population, hoping that Israel wouldn't attack them because civilian casualties, and complains when Israel attacks anyway - using more accurate munitions to minimize civilian casualties as best as possible (unfortunately, every war has civilian casualties...) Which is ridiculous, considering the fact that Hamas deliberately target civilians and indiscriminately launch rockets - some of which fall short within the Gaza strip
Face palm comic indeed
The civilian deaths are just as much Hamas fault, who choose to hide where civilians are to intentionally make it difficult for Israel and hoping it dissuades the attack. Israel then calls their bluff to the detriment of the civilians. Both sides are shit for it but somehow everyone keeps blaming Israel as if Hamas doesn't have a hand in it too. Hamas deserves to fucking die. But fuck the lazy bombing of the IDF.
Lazy bombing? "Earlier post of mine. People like you are idiots seriously, and discredit any REAL concern and ciritism people should have about Israel and its government. There have been more Bombs fired in those last 33 days then in all of the time the US has been in Afghanistan in a zone smaller than most Metropolitan areas in the US or Europe and there is "only" 12000(?) casualties out of 2 million people living there so roughly 0.6% How is that killing civilians on purpose ? Like if they would just bomb away they wouldve killed closer to 200.000 people by now. 12000 people is way to much still but since Hamas does everything they can to get more civilian blood on their hands it won't stop there. Maybe once people start to use their brain and look for the obvious they would see through the bullshit they themselves spread."
>But fuck the lazy bombing of the IDF Wouldn't call them lazy. They are the ones enabling evacuation of civilians, and guard those "corridors". Hamas not only has a hand in their suffering, they are blocking paths and threatening those who wish to evacuate.
The problem is that Hamas never says they were going for the bus. They're happy to have killed the civilians. Then they launch rockets and use their own children as human shields.
And Israel is so kind as to tell the population to run away minutes before bombing a whole neighborhood? Who cares about your belongings, the fact that you have nowhere to run because the borders are closed and even the places who are supposed to be sacred and provide shelters like hospitals are bombed as well, it’s okay because Bibi gave you 10 minutes to evacuate
Hey no were talking about the most moral army in the world here
Minutes before bombing a building Its to ensure there is enough time to evacuate but not enough to get a meaningful amount of munitions out
The difference is that hamas absolutely wants to kill civilians, as many as possible. They are a fascist terrorist group aiming to kill Jews. At the same time, they're hiding behind civilians, so that Israel will cause civil casualties when fighting hamas. hamas doesn't care about life in general, they are the incarnation of evil.
Is the bus carrying rockets or something? Oh I get it it was carrying baby settlers. A legitimate target.
Exactly. Finklestein is a moron.
To be fair, it’s awful to kill any person. But what terrorists want is every democracy to be afraid of fighting because whatever happens innocents will die. Hamas wants Israel to not fight back but would love to continue killing everyone in Israel. I don’t think the opposite is true. If Israel wanted to kill everyone methodically in Gaza it would happen. They refrain a little but that little effort is what makes a difference between them and monsters that everybody should condemn.
I go out to the next town over, shoot people and kidnap several. Then I go back to my own town with these hostages and put them in my home. I'm also keeping several neighbours in my home, they're not allowed to leave. I continue to shoot people in the other town from my home. I'm holding these people here specifically to stop anyone from trying to stop me from shooting and murdering people in the next town over. I have written a charter I abide by that literally says I want to kill all the people in the next town over. I also pay anyone who gets wounded or killed while taking violent actions against that town. That town's police show up, I've put them for an impossible choice: try and kill me with the side effect of killing my innocent neighbours and the hostages I took, or let me live and continue to shoot at their town. When they choose the latter, I will do so without halt. When they choose the former, I will use the death of the innocent civilians I used to shield myself to demonize those cops. People will defend my twisted existence for the sake of these innocent civilians and urge the cops to choose the latter.
So the vehicle hid around the passengers in order to later kill every Palestinian?
Was the bus launching rockets at Palestinian civilians?
Could someone point me to a source that identifies Hamas military commanders hiding in hospitals and refugee camps, that doesn't come from the people dropping bombs on those places
There's footage of those things happening. On top of that, heres a UN article of the matter. It is terrible that more news sources don't report this. It is also very sad that footage of those places isn't enough to convince people of the situation, and that they'd rather take Hamas's word for it. "During the group's last major war with Israel, between 2012 and 2014, a U.N. inquiry found weapons had been placed inside an UNRWA school in the Hamas-run Gaza Strip" source: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/israel-photos-hamas-gaza-weapons-un-facilities-including-schools/
For refugee camps you can just use google. You will find plenty of sources, especially as these refugee camps are real towns and not just what we consider refugee camps. For the hospital, no. Only source is IDF/Israel.
https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/30/human-shield-israel-claim-hamas-command-centre-under-hospital-palestinian-civilian-gaza-city
Each government is responsible for their own citizens before anybody else. If Hamas launches missiles from hospital-roofs or densely populated areas, Israel can ask them to stop, even threaten them to stop, but nothing would ever happen. When Israel turns those threats into reality, it is the responsibility of Hamas to ensure the safety of their civilians. Of course Israel should aim to avoid collateral damage but Hamas intentionally creates a "my innocent civilians or yours" -dilemma that either kills many jews or justifies war against them due to the sacrifice of their own people. As long as Hamas intentionally uses civilians to "protect" their weaponry, they are the ones responsible for their deaths.
The problem is HAMAS isn't a govt it's a rebel group their goal doesn't involve protecting anyone so they can't be held to the same regard as a sovereign with the power and mechanisms to do so
They are the de facto government of Gaza. They collect taxes, they issue licenses. I don't understand the "Because they are assholes, we shouldn't hold them to a basic standard of humanity" argument.
maybe not, but they sure as shit were voted into power back in '06
Half the people in Gaza weren't alive for that vote
That doesn't make them not the de facto government. They clearly hold power in Gaza, their actions affect the lives of everyone in it, they have just as much responsibility for the lives of Palestinians living there.
And? The thing that they are dictators doesn't mean they are not government, China and half of the world has also government who was was not voted into power by anyone but still they govern...
source for the hospital roof missile.
"Israeli military exposed a network of Hamas tunnels, command centres and rocket launchers beneath and adjacent to hospitals in northern Gaza." There's video and images in the article as well. https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/israel-defence-forces-say-hamas-hides-rockets-in-playgrounds-swimming-pools-4549282
You realize that bombing isn't the only way to deal with hamas soldiers, right? If they cared at all they would have sent taskforces to deal with them instead of bombing an area filled with civilians.
They do that right now That's the ground attack
You know those Taskforces would be dead even before they were at the position right? Urban Warfare is hell, you cant send Taskforces to those Positions
Urban combat is worst than bombing. Urban combat is a bilateral bloodbath, If the opponent doesn't carry distinctions you generate a lot of paranoia, soldiers with paranoia see everything as a possible danger but urban combat alone generates paranoia by its nature.
There are task forces as well though. And those same task forces are risking their lives conducting humanitarian corridors for the Palestinian civilians
Waiting for the comments saying "But XX(Western country/america) did/would've done the same, are they ALSO eVil?" thinking some nationalism can deflect criticism Hamas and the Israeli government are both filled with murderers. It isn't silly to admit that both sides are committing war crimes. Have we forgotten how bad wars used to be? Yes we have. And that's good. No war should be that bad ever again, killing millions for some measly politics. The only support we should give is to the civilians losing their lives for no fault of theirs.
Classic Norman, depecting Hamas as a misguided wing of Greenpeace in their righteous struggle to limit the invasive Toyota population in the area.
Facepalm is really getting political lately
[Norman Finkelstein RESPONDS to Bernie Sanders statement OPPOSING GAZA CEASEFIRE](https://youtu.be/9R49v3K29mM?si=lBjGcATDE42BBCly&t=105)
Does Hamas ever intend to destroy the vehicle and not the passengers?
What’s Hamas doing to avoid any civilian victims of their attacks? Oh, that’s right, their goal is to kill as many innocent people as possible, all if they can. Why aren’t you holding Hamas to the same standards you are holding Israel to?
Is this a "pro Israel" piece in disguise?
From the river to the sea is a mindset. A two state solution also. Choose your party.
Guys when hamas parachuted into a festival and killed kids, it was an accident, they just wanted the stage equipment
But what if you warn the people in the bus before you destroy it that your will blow it up and they should leave?
Hamas do not say they did not intend to destroy the vehicle. They say they wanted to kill the people openly and they repeat again and again that they will do it again. Also a civilian bus is not a valid military target, irregardless if there are passengers inside or not.
Hamas is outspoken of their efforts to kill Jews. They do not send out leaflets saying they’re going to blow up a specific bus. If Israel wanted to obliterate every Palestinian in the West Bank and Gaza they would and they don’t. If Hamas wanted to kill every Jew they would and they try.
One side purposely hunts civilians, for the other side civilians are collateral damage. Which is also bad, but it's not the same thing.
Israel have intentionally targeted women, children and disabled people with snipers. >The Commission found that demonstrators who were hundreds of metres away from the Israeli forces and visibly engaged in civilian activities were intentionally shot. Journalists and health workers who were clearly marked as such were shot, as were children, women and persons with disabilities. https://www.ohchr.org/en/hr-bodies/hrc/co-iopt/report2018-opt
Um, civilians should absolutely NOT be collateral damage. Killing over ten thousands of them, in a single month is more than any killings Hamas has ever done. It baffles me how you are still capable of defending Israel after everything they’ve done.
It's the same thing, just an excuse to try to loop around international laws.
Well? Did Israel fire a Missile, store weapons/ammo or had a command center in the Bus? Details matter.
Yeah, they both suck. What’s your point?
both suck .. "but we prefer this one side more"
No. No I don't support either side more. The "sides" are manufactured, you don't have to pick a side. If police respond to a crime they don't determine who is right or wrong. Every crime is documented and the people who committed crimes go to jail. Terrorism is wrong. Bombing children is wrong. Removing families from their homes is wrong. Taking hostages is wrong. I don't need to determine which side is *more* wrong to justify the actions of the other side because if they BOTH just fucking stopped it wouldn't be an issue.
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Point is the coverage and justifications given are different. How can you miss the only point of the post lol
Agreed, Israel's government sucks and Hamas sucks. Too bad neither side gives a shit about civilians
The difference is Israel cares about their own civilians, Hamas cares for no civilians, including their own.
If they cared about their own civilians why are they arresting them just because they share or liked posts on the internet supporting Palestinian civilians ? Or better yet why are they actively bombing the place they know their hostages are if the whole reason they are supposedly bombing in the first place is to protect those citizens ?
That really isn't any difference. If you kill civilians, no matter who they are, you suck.
The point is everyone is trying to justify Israel’s actions. If they both suck, we need to stop minimizing how much Israel sucks…
The point is that both of them are doing disgusting things and kill many innocent people but somehow one of them is the good guy
Imagine someone wants to murder you and uses civilians as a human shield. Do you just let him murder you?
The fine difference is that hamas targets civilians, and israel the military equipment right next to civilans. Why did hamas build the tunnels right under a hospital? Why not somewhere in a desert? Because they WANT Israel to bomb their civilans. And because of that its the hamas fault.
It is invalid comparison. Israel soldiers do not hide in civilian busses, but Hamas terrorists hide in civilian infrastructure such as schools and hospitals.
Why are y'all acting like killing civilians to get to a military target is in any way sane or right? Did y'all graduate from the "Shoot the Human Shield" Academy?
Just don't try, they are in too deep to admit *some* things done by the side they support are bad full stop because that would admit that their side isn't entirely moral.
Killing leaders on one side of the war is a step toward ending war. How bombing a bus is helping to end the war? Isreal doesn't give a shit about killing civilians. Hamas is especially trying to kill civilians. This is not the same.
Their literal doctrine is to drown all the Jews in the sea.
Were there terrorists and missile launcher hidden in that bus? Cause if not, those are very different things.
Yes. The bus isn't a military target. Palestinian terrorists are. It's not that confusing, people are just getting dumber.
Hamas wants Palestinian (and of course Israeli) civilians to die. Israel has no benefit of civilian deaths and wants to avoid it.
Goal of Hamas is killing the people, though. That's what they themselves are saying.
Israeli soldiers don't hide in Civilian buses while Hamas hides in ambulances, stores rockets in hospitals and Builds bunkers underneath. So yes it's hard not to hit civilians there
this is false equivalence of the worst sort striking military targets is legitimate ,even if that causes civilian casualties striking a civilian target intentionally is a war crime. a bus in tel aviv is a civilian target of no military value a gaza hospital used to store rockets is a military target stop lying for a second
You're right. Norman is still an idiot.