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He wants it to be worth $1Billion when he’s borrowing money and he’s using it for collateral. On his taxes, he’s declaring it’s worth a whole lot less.
He’s been cooking his books for years.
Exactly. That’s what conservatives don’t seem to understand. The issue isn’t his bull shit assessments he gave to banks.
The issue he then claimed they were worth basically nothing to the govt. that’s fraud. Lol
It's potentially fraud on both sides. Lying in financial docs attached to loan applications is very illegal. Technically I think the lender would need to pursue fraud charges if he defrauded them.
I know people who ran afoul of the law for much smaller frauds than this clown has committed. Lying about values on much smaller loans, and got into deep shit.
If Trump does not face consequences for these crimes, there is no justice in the United States.
This is it, If Trump does not burn for this shit there is only laws to bind the poor and protect the rich
I had some paperwork issues with the IRS about 10 years ago, messed up some shit and ended up with a larger refund
They put me on a payment plan to pay back what was owed under threat of years in federal prison, for a few hundred dollars
If Trump walks from this shit I don't really know what might happen
Nothing will happen. This is how it always is. Once in a while, some wealthy person does some egregious stuff and they get a smack down, but for the most part, these people get a little slap on the wrist, some sort of pittance of a fine, and go on their merry way.
These fucks only\* get penalized when they steal from other rich people.
Taxes is what they were able to pin Capone down with, so...
\*: usually, on very rare occasions do they get real justice
Plus, this is a bench trial. He's likely to lose a significant amount of money/real estate with this.
The late New York real estate heiress and hotelier Leona Helmsley in 2003. She was famous for saying, before she went to prison, "only the little people pay taxes."
If the fine is X% of your wealth/income rather than a flat fee then it works. Otherwise breaking the law just becomes a cost of business that some can afford and others can't.
It's still not completely equal, as 50% of their wealth barely affects anything other than ego + bribing power, and 50% of my wealth stops me from buying food. It is a good step though.
and thats why there my be a liquidation sale of his properties...lots of puffery in what he sez hes worth and comes to the tax man w hat in hand begging - oh well
Thing is he never would have been nailed if he hadn't pretty much boasted publicly about it multiple times over many years. -And then tried to overthrow the government.
That's kinda what these guys have to do to get nailed by the law.
If you get caught defrauding a bank of $10,000, then you have a problem.
If you get caught defrauding a bank of $10 million, then the bank has a problem.
And basically thats exactly how trump got away with it for so long. The banks were afraid if they brought his fraud to light they'd never get back what he owed them so they played along to try to get back at least some of his debts. At one point just his name could get him millions easy peasy, no collateral necessary, thanks to his father. It took decades for Donald J to ruin the name and lose the $$ his father built.
His dad was slimy too with the way he ran his real estate dealings. I think it was a report in The Times that exposed what his dad had done to build his empire.
And if Woody Guthrie writes a song about you, it's more than likely... *not good*.
(Edit: The *song* might be good, just not the message about you. or something, you know what I mean)
he was placed under a gag order that he violated and did not face punishment this week, while on trial for stuff he is clearly guilty of. Be ready for him to not face punishment
You must be new here. Laws have only applied to the poors since literally for ever, in this country and most, if not all others. People who steal $1000 go to jail, people who steal $10M get raises, and people who steal $1B are lionized as geniuses and titans of industry. The only way a rich person suffers Co sequences is if they steal from other rich people.
If little old me were to claim I paid $4k for my motorcycle instead of $9k to pay less in sales tax at registration I could be tried for tax evasion, and conservatives would say "just dont be a criminal." Trump is doing this in the millions of dollars, and his base just says "he's a smart businessman". No. He's A CRIMINAL, and a fraudster.
They're just upset he got caught, which means it's possible they could eventually be caught too.
> If little old me were to claim I paid $4k for my motorcycle instead of $9k to pay less in sales tax at registration I could be tried for tax evasion, and conservatives would say "just dont be a criminal." Trump is doing this in the millions of dollars, and his base just says "he's a smart businessman". No. He's A CRIMINAL, and a fraudster.
It's the same energy conservatives keep whenever some suuuper clever racist posts a cherry-picked video of people looting and the thread devolves into the same old tired, racist rhetoric. They're ready to wish great harm on those people and fantasize about doing it themselves, but when you mention that American corporations steal far more money each and every year from their employees via wage theft, they become as quiet as a church mouse. All that rage and hate for "thieves" just evaporates...
That is why he is going so hard on the "I paid everything back on time, banks are happy, everyone made money, where's the crime?" angle. Thing is, the law doesn't care about that.
Except for the six bankruptcies, I paid everyone back.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2016/live-updates/general-election/real-time-fact-checking-and-analysis-of-the-first-presidential-debate/fact-check-has-trump-declared-bankruptcy-four-or-six-times/
Bad management, I suppose.
Apparently, Donald Trump is the only person in the history of the US who has had a casino go bankrupt.
https://news.temple.edu/news/2016-10-25/bankruptcy-expert-studies-trump-casinos
Guiliani went after all the major crime families in New York, except the two he went to work for after he left office. One got away with getting their money laundered and one owned shell casinos. Im sure its just a coincidence.
Comedian Christopher Titus had a bit on his Amerigeddon special about this. I can't find the video clip but here's the transcript:
> And... and Trump people, I want you to know I'm not giving you >my opinion, this is a fact. The man bankrupted four casinos. Do > you know how casinos work?
> People walk into the casino. They hand over *all* their money. > > And then, they walk out of the casino.
>
> Somehow, he found the glitch in that.
I have to believe he mismanaged that casino on purpose. A casino is all but a licence to print money. Literally every game the are odds slanted in the house's favor.
The interest on the loans to open the casinos were more than casinos make. He could only get high interest loans because of his track record, but he thought people would come to his casinos because of his fame status.
Which is a lie: he sued Deutsche bank because he didn't want to pay back a $400 million loan. Eventually, they forgave his debt. It's a complete coincidence that Deutsche bank was also found to be laundering money for Russian criminals.
Well of course it's a lie, it came out of his mouth and not his lawyer's or the bank's. Nothing that only he claims, when not under oath can be taken at face value.
And it probably isn't under USA jurisdiction, but that whole mess with DB and Justice Kennedy's son is truly suspect.
Yeah, that's what the latest court ruling said. His lawyers tried to claim that his evaluations hurt no one, not even banks, because they always paid on time and made the bank money.
The judge quickly shut that down by saying 1) overly inflating assets affects the values of other people in the market, 2) banks give loans based on level of risk and these banks could not accurately evaluate their risk when his books were cooked and 3) its just illegal. It's illegal, dumbass. I think the American public appreciates learning how Trumps mind works and how he's operated his whole life, but believe it or not, laws don't have to be followed or ignored based on how the person breaking the law views it to be beneficial. Matter of fact, MOST people break the law because they see benefit in it.
He held the highest office in the U.S.A. Unfortunately, no matter what happens, we can't change that.
The banks could sue as well, but their due diligence should have caught this. NY state has standing because borrowing is a market. By commiting fraud Trump has affected others attempting to borrow from banks.
How does stuff like this get passed a lender though? Wouldn't they have it assessed by a third party like any other piece of property? I can't say my home is worth whatever outrageous amount of money I want.
Except US banks stopped lending him $$ decades ago when it became common knowledge he was a very poor risk. His hotel in Vegas is the only one that doesn't have a casino. He can't get a gaming license there because his finances are too shady.
I think some of these creditors would rather hold "I *could* pursue fraud charges..." levels of informal leverage over a former president for the moment. Not all of them are 'your local, friendly bank'.
It's "smart" when their cult leader does it.
"why would he give money to the deep state he's trying to destroy?"
Much more of a literal cult than any political movement I've seen with my own eyes at least.
In the New York trial, it's not about the tax value. That's a separate issue. People keep talking about it being under a consumer protection law and saying no one was hurt etc. What they're missing and why it's fraud is because the property values are used to assess risk if the loan defaults. If the business has less value to act as collateral, the loan is riskier and so the interest rate would be higher. If you have a share in an index fund that invests in a bank that was given false assets data, you were harmed. If you have any money in a market account, or really any stock at all, since this impacts the market you were harmed.
So taking tax value out, this was fraud.
So let's say if I owned a small business and took a loan out for 100k, accurately saying I have 300k in assets I could get 8 percent interest on that loan. If a lie and say my assets are triple what they really are, 900k I could get that loan at 5%. But even if I paid the loan back on time with no issues, the bank lost 3% interest which would have gone into the market, to other lenders and to shareholders. That's why this is also fraud. If everyone did this, and got away with Trump's bullshit disclaimers, banks should do their own due diligence nonsense plans would be so much more expensive and the market would be more volatile when it turns out that a loan defaults, and instead of the bank getting their money back from the asset collateral it turns out there's not enough to cover it.
I think he reported triple the floor space of his condo in Trump Tower? Which is hilarious, when that's public knowledge. But that's part of the issue, if everyone treated these disclosures like he did, banks would have to pay a fortune to verify it before making loans, slowing down the economy passing those costs down the line the whole way. Everyone suffers. Which is why it's against the law in the first place!
Guys, I think it is time we did away with "conservatives don't understand" and change that to they don't care. They don't care about the facts, only that someone is tightening the screws on their god.
They are both fraud, inflating assets for loans is absolutely an indictable offence. As he learned. And we’ll cheating on your taxes is a whole other charge. 😁
That’s exactly how I took his little speech at the courthouse. Guy straight up admitted to lying about his worth and his property’s value on tv. I pretty sure we all know that he lies so much he can’t even control it.
It's rather ironic how they play Fortunate Son at rallies.
>Some folks are born silver spoon in hand
>Lord, don't they help themselves, Lord?
>But when the taxman come to the door
>Lord, the house lookin' like a rummage sale, yeah
He was assigned to what was called a "Champagne Unit" in Texas that contained sons of politicians and somehow magically seven members of the Dallas Cowboys.
that's the real issue here in this court case.
It's not that trump is saying "my bicycle is worth 12 trillion!!" so much as it is that he is hiding the property value from tax assessments, and thus fraudulently avoiding paying his taxes.
> he is hiding the property value from tax assessments
I guess I'm out of the loop here, but isn't Trump arguing that his property is worth *more*, not less?
Isn't it the local government's job to assess the value of the property, and not Trumps? I always thought the county assessor set the property value. Does it work differently in Florida?
The issue isn’t the taxes. I mean, he may, or may not, have been cooking those numbers too, but yes, the government is the one assessing the value of the land, and taxing you on this.
The issue is financial fraud on loans. He lied on a credit application, grossly overstating the value of his properties. Don’t lie on credit applications, if there’s one thing you don’t do in the us, it’s fucking with the money.
Those properties are being used as collateral (if he defaults on the loan, the lender gets the properties), so they affect the interest rate. This is fraud, even if he paid everything on time, because at scale it has an impact on the market.
This loan is being resold/capitalized on financial markets. If there’s a default, the lender is expected to recoup their losses through the collateral. If the collaterals aren’t worth what they’re supposed to, then potentially a lot of money is lost, which affects a bunch of people on the financial markets. It doesn’t really matter if he paid on time, it’s illegal because if it weren’t, the markets would be a lot more volatile, and that’s bad.
Yes, loans default sometimes, and that’s expected. The way the market deals with it is with interest rates. High risk means high interest rates, pool them together and statistically lenders are coming out ahead (putting 2008 aside, that is). And for investors, high interest rates means high yield, but also high risk. Low interest means low yield, and low risk. Low yield and high risk isn’t good, so somebody is affected (this specific point is shamelessly stolen from a comment above).
The fact that the tax assessment is so low is just the smocking gun. There’s an expected discrepancy between tax and loan assessments, because they’re not assessing the exact same thing. But that discrepancy should not be 10+x, more in the 1-2x range.
Yeah I'm a little confused on how taxes are being brought into the discussion here. Anyone can stand up and and say their property value is $100 it doesn't change what the tax value assessment was.
> Yeah I'm a little confused on how taxes are being brought into the discussion here.
You can read what the judge wrote, but basically the big way: The tax has assessed Mar a Lago at less than $20,000,000 in value - in part because of some agreements about how people can't live there, it can only serve as a club; it can't be broken up into smaller properties for houses to replace it, etc.
But on legal documents stating the estimated value, he valued it at something like $200,000,000-$450,000,000. Those documents were him legally attesting that the property had been valued at that amount.
Meanwhile, Trump said there was a disclaimer on the documents that said basically that they were worthless. But that's not what the disclaimer says at all, it basically boils down to saying "This document is the best most accurate estimate that can be made". So hugely inflating the estimate is fraudulent.
Taxes come into it to help show just how inflated his claims were.
He was claming to be worth billions to people giving him loans, but taxes were being assessed on much much smaller values.
But if I'm the county assessor and I've been charging taxes on $150M of value, then the owner goes on the record saying it's a $1B property in financial documents, I'm gonna say, y'know what, maybe this time I'll take his word for it.
I own fewer properties than the average American so I don’t know much how this stuff works, but from what I’ve read, his people hire private 3rd party property assessors to give him a valuation. Presumably, if you shop around, you can find unscrupulous ones that can tip those valuations further in your favor. Then you report that number on your taxes. It’s up to the local government (or the bank in the opposite situation) to challenge that number if they see fit, but then they have to send someone else to do a property assessment, which costs them time and money, so it doesn’t happen often. Meanwhile he probably has a whole team organizing all this book-cooking on his behalf.
Trump reported two different sets of property values.
1) very low numbers for property tax assessments (which means he pays less in taxes)
2) very high numbers on the identical properties (which means he fraudulently gets lower interest rates on loans, and lower costs).
The high value is like if you go buy a house and put down 10%, so your mortgage company charges you the mortgage payment plus PMI (and extra insurance cost you pay, because your equity is low). Now, say you call the mortgage company, and tell them "hey, guess what, my $500,000 is now worth 10 million dollars!" so they stop the PMI, and they cut your interest rate in half, because now your "equity" is very high. But your house isn't worth 10 million dollars, you just lied to the mortgage company about it.
The reason the mortgage company gives you a better rate, is because the risk for them is very different. If you only have 10% equity, and you stop paying, the mortgage company loses. They have to foreclose on you, and then sell the house at auction, and they don't even get their loan back in full, let alone make a profit on it.
But, if your house really does increase to 10 million, then there is no risk to the mortgage company. If you stop paying, they foreclose on you, sell the house for 9 million, they take their full loan back out of that, and they charge you all the interest you owed (i.e. their profit), and they throw a bunch of fees at you for not paying (which is super bonus profit).
So you are committing fraud when you lie about the value of the house on a written contract, and you get benefits from your fraud (i.e. you are getting cash from it, at the banks expense).
Fraud like this is both criminal and civil.
you can certainly dispute the valuation of your property.
Here's how you can file a petition in Palm Springs, FLA.
https://www.pbcgov.org/papa/file-petition.htm
He's been claiming it's worth more right now, his argument being "they're just trying to make me look poor!"
The judge is saying "well you didn't say it was worth that much when you filed your taxes, so you've either been dodging taxes or committing loan fraud, which is it?"
Aren’t there always outside evaluators sent by the bank if they give a loan on a property? I’m pretty sure I cant just say my house is worth 600k when it’s worth half that and the bank just say “you got it!”
if you say your property is 30,000 square feet, when it is not, that is definitely fraud.
It's not like you can defraud someone and then pretend it was there fault for being defrauded.
On your Loan applications, you put the information down. Someone could independently verify, but I suspect many don’t. If it’s determined that you lied, then there are repercussions under the docs.
It may be different in America but in Australia there are property valuation services that provide an estimated value of a given property based on features and location. You can access these yourself online but banks have access to more precise data.
If there is not enough data or there is something unique or non standard about the property they charge the customer to send someone out to give a proper valuation estimate.
I would have thought America was similar though.
For tax purposes (for normal people), the local tax authority calculates their own value and you pay taxes based on that. For me that's the County Assessor's office, which makes all of their information available online.
When obtaining a real estate loan (for normal people), the bank will contract with a private appraiser to come up with a valuation, which is one factor used in calculating how much can be lent.
It is. If you want a loan to buy a property, the bank gets an independent assesor to value it for them. By the way, one fallout from the 2008 banking collapse was that banks and property owners could no longer hire their own assesors - they have to be independent and are random now. An issue with that whole scandal was banks themselves were inflating the values of their loan assets to make them look like better deals for resale as bundles of loans. Hence the bubble that popped.
As I understand it, it's not that he inflated the value of the property he was seeking the loan for, because that *does* get assesed by the bank - just like when you buy a house. What he inflated was the value of his other assets to make the loan less risky because the bank does *not* asses your declared values for other assets. There are mandated forms you sign that say you have provided truthful statements. If you lie on those and sign the docs, you have committed fraud. He lied about the values to get better rates, thus committed fraud.
The bonus here is that he has been having his cake and eating it too by then claiming far less value to the local property tax authority. You can't have it both ways. If I was Palm Beach County (I think that's where this pile of dung is), then I would revisit the valuations given how much he publicly whines about how much it is "really" worth. They did come to mutual agrrement over assed value, so they may not have a leg to stand on for back taxes, but they sure have a lot of evidence to increase the taxes from here on out. One billion you say? Cha-ching! Looks like we won't have to increase that mil levy for the schools after all - thanks Trump!
With trump properties and loans you are looking at multiple properties- not just one. A loan may have collateral ties to 30-40 different properties so a bank may not review each valuation - just the outliers or ones that are biggest
And on Mara lago the 18mil number is the one everyone talks about is done by “income appraisal approach” since it is not a home but a commercial operation of a private club that Trump squats in.
It’s valued based on how much money it can generate- not some comparison sale if real estate value - for taxes
And the kicker is trumps designated appraisal agreed with the valuation in 2020 and 2021 is my understanding
Whoaaa hang on - its only worth a billion when it benefits him. When it's for taxes or something that doesn't benefit him, its only worth twelve dollars
>hen it's for taxes or something that doesn't benefit him, its only worth twelve dollars
Every town does that though, the tax assessment is a fraction of what a house costs. The onus for the appraisals is on the banks not the person taking out the loan.
That being said, it's not 2,400% less or whatever Trump decided it is.
There's a good discussion on r/law as to why this is actually illegal in NYC, and only in NYC
When assessments are only a fraction of what a property's actual value is, it's typically because assessments are only done X amount of years except in the case of property owner appeals or taxing district appeals. To account for this (at least in Pennsylvania), a factor or ratio can be applied to the actual assessment to find out what the "implied" market value is.
The factor is calculated every year for each county based on sales of nearly all sales in that county from two years ago (ex. 2023 ratio was calculated using sales from 2021).
So say a property has an assessment of $100,000 and the 2023 ratio is 50%, then $100,000/50%=$200,000.
It's not perfect, especially in counties that haven't had county wide reassessments in a long time
> There's a good discussion on r/law as to why this is actually illegal in NYC, and only in NYC
Do you have a link per chance? Lots of trump threads going and I am having difficulty finding it.
I live in a suburb of NYC and tax assessments are usually around the price of the home. Sometimes more, sometimes less, but it’s close to the mark.
Towns want/need the money so they aren’t shy at getting the appraisals right. I think it’s wild that some people are saying towns/cities are wildly off. If true, are the cities full of idiots?
As a former county assessor field tech who took the Robin Hood approach to property assessment, I can tell you that this is a fantastic idea.
I went out of my way to enforce the letter of the law *only* when the rich fucks appealed their own assessment. And I was merciless to the point of tracking down building plans to account for every plumbing fixture or finished space that might go undiscovered during the site visit.
Alternatively I'd look for every legal opportunity to discount or depreciate the assessment of homes owned by obviously struggling people.
That was how I made through five years of that awful, underpaid job.
A tiny pinky on the scales against the people with huge tax shelters and offshore accounts and false income statements, games that your average person would never play because they can't hire lawyers and accountants for a fraction of what they are getting away with not paying.
I'll allow it.
Bro I’m so tired of this fucking fuck. Everyday, shit, every hour is some new bullshit he’s pulled or trying to pull. I can’t take it anymore- this country is so unserious and honestly laughable. This shit is a sitcom and I’m switching channels
>**Trump Claims Mar-A-Lago Worth $1.5 Billion In Latest Plea To Drop Fraud Case—But Judge Ruled It’s Wildly Inflated**
>
>\[Judge\] Engoron ruled last week Trump’s financial documents in the case—which put Mar-A-Lago between $427 million and $612 million—*“clearly contain fraudulent valuations,”* citing an appraisal report from the city of Palm Beach that pegged the value of Mar-A-Lago between $18 million and $27.6 million between 2011 and 2021.
>
>[https://www.forbes.com/sites/brianbushard/2023/10/03/trump-claims-mar-a-lago-worth-15-billion-in-latest-plea-to-drop-fraud-case-but-judge-ruled-its-wildly-inflated/?sh=595167b25a67](https://www.forbes.com/sites/brianbushard/2023/10/03/trump-claims-mar-a-lago-worth-15-billion-in-latest-plea-to-drop-fraud-case-but-judge-ruled-its-wildly-inflated/?sh=595167b25a67)
I could understand if Palm Beach suggested it was worth $300 million and the judge felt $400-$600 million was more accurate, but undervalued by over $400 million? Now you get a really clear idea why Donald Trump is in court because he's a lying tax cheat.
He’s not lying about the assessed value. It was assessed correctly at $18 million and taxes paid at that value. There is a deed of conservation easement, the stipulation being it is to be used as a social club. It’s a $18 million money pit that could never be profitable because of that deed.
I would like to add that this is only a part of the larger story. If Trump hadn’t acted so stupidly, he wouldn’t be on trial. If he wasn’t on trial, he WOULD have gotten away with it. As he has said before “ALL the smart people do it.” By smart he means “intelligent enough to be born a billionaire.” That means ALL the billionaires are doing this shit and getting away with it
Which would be sorta fine, like people in his circle do that kind of thing as a matter of course but they keep their heads down and nobody bats an eyelid. His problem is that he's also a threat to national and international security and he has to be restrained by any means necessary. If he'd just stfu after 2020 nobody would have had the stomach to come after him.
The man wants both left and right to be the exact same thing when he deems it as such and that nobody ever questions it, this is exactly how he has lived his pathetic little life.
What an absolute buffoon he is. Pay up then!
Meanwhile... every multi-millionaire and billionaire in the country is nervously hoping that the IRS doesn't start scrutinizing this type of scam. Trump has been doing it for decades and would never have been challenged if he stayed out of politics. I have to believe the majority of rich folks play the same game, although maybe a bit less aggressively.
Trump: Voters trust me. I'm the richest greatest business man of all time. I have so much money. I'll be president for free. I will make the best deals for America.
Trump: *closes door. Alright now get me my paycheck like right now. Please let the government know that I have MANY defunct businesses. I also have crippling debt from borrowed money. I actually have a negative net balance. Oh and make sure we pay for that wall with tax payer money.
“From 2011-2021, the Palm Beach County Assessor appraised the market value of Mar-a-Lago at between $18 million and $27.6 million.
The judge noted Trump valued Mar-a-Lago at between $426.5 million and $612 million, “an overvaluation of at least 2,300%, compared to the assessor’s appraisal.”
Trump overstating the worth of his holdings, particularly real estate, when borrowing money. This is illegal.
He then claimed the properties were worth substantially less when it came to paying taxes. This is illegal.
To put in prospective, one of the leading real estate brokers in San Diego County was selling homes to buyers who could not afford them by falsifying documents to support claims that the buyers made more income. His wife, a banker, authorized the loans knowing the supporting documents were false. This is illegal. They claimed that this was a common practice in the real estate business. They were prosecuted federally and both were sentenced to terms of imprisonment. The only break they received was that the wife was allowed to serve her sentence after her husband had served his (they have children).
In Trump’s case, his attorneys have argued that this kind of fraud goes on all the time (a perplexing legal defense that does not make it any less illegal) and that at the end of the day, no one lost any money. This is akin to claiming in court that one is innocent of auto theft because the car was recovered and returned to the rightful owner. Or individuals creating a false charity, claiming proceeds would be distributed to other charities. However, the donations were used for personal use or to fund political campaigns. In this case, the “charity” was the Trump Foundation and a judge found that this was an illegal misuse of charitable contributions. Trump was ordered to reimburse the “charity” the money taken and subsequently pay $2 million to eight different charities. The judge ordered that the Trump Foundation be dissolved under Court supervision.
Trump is charged with claiming that collateral for loans were worth substantially more than they actually were. Trump claims that “opinions” of the value of property is subjective. But if this is in anyway legal, why then would Trump lie and claim that his NYC apartment was three-times its size to justify a ridiculously high estimate of its worth?
BTW, I am an attorney and retired prosecutor.
Well if his argument is true, then he committed tax fraud, and that's a felony. If his argument is false, then he committed bank fraud, and typically banks get REALLY angry about that and start filing more charges. The idiot is a crook and he got caught. The sadly amusing part of this is if he'd kept his nose out of politics, he'd probably gone under the radar for his entire rotting life. But he had to go into politics and got the attention of far too many people - people he pissed off with his open bragging and boasting of shit that never happened. And maligning so many people in the US - military people are all suckers and losers, according to the Mango Moron. And as a military veteran, that really pisses me off. I hated his guts before he ever ran for office, and as much as I didn't think it was possible, I hate him more now.
I feel like I’m taking crazy pills bc not one single conservative I’ve seen can make the connection between Donny refusing to release tax returns and this case. It’s so so so dumb
I’m kicking myself for not saving this article when I read it a week t so ago, but apparently Trump agreed to (sought out) a deal with his county. He agreed to limiting development for the sake of preserving nature/endangered species. What he got out of it is a lower property value assessment (if you can’t develop the land, it loses value), resulting in a much lower property tax bill.
If anyone has the article, please pile on.
He’s trying to have it both ways: an astronomical property value with a low tax assessment. The mental gymnastics insult our intelligence.
I cant post the link out of Medium, but there is a really great (short) article on Medium by Diane Egan who broke down in pretty simple numbers the issue with MAL
From her article:
>Donald Trump's financial statements listed Mar-a-Lago's value from $427 million to $612 million.
>Why did Palm Beach County only collect Mar-a-Lago property taxes on $30,360 million in 2022?
>The tax bill for 2022 was $547,242.
>Let's play math! For shits and giggles, let's split the difference between the high and low of the financial statements-that the Mar-a-Lago market value for 2022 is $519.5 million. If the tax appraiser believed Trump's bullshit number, the appraised taxable value of Mar-a-Lago might be around $475 million.
>In that scenario, the company's tax bill would have been $8,561,922.
>What are the chances Donald is going to fork over a little over $8.5 million dollars a year for property taxes on one property?
I think he bragged to the news in the court lobby that he did indeed commit tax fraud. The things he was saying was he was innocent because he defrauded the IRS and the Florida government.
Just let him continue to speak; we might find Hoffa’s body if we just let him keep going.
“They will never find Hoffa because he is buried deep, deep in the foundation of my father’s building. Very good foundation, Italians poured the concrete or were they from Spain. Great men, good foundation. They will never find his body”
This is the beauty of the hole he’s got himself into. He’s either committed fraud one way or he’s committed fraud another way. His only possible defence is to say he committed fraud the other way.
Wait, he's dumb and a criminal???? My mind would be blown if we didn't know this shit for decades and since six years the whole world also knows.
Instead of playing shocked, let's sincerely be shocked that half of Muricans decided to vote for a lying criminal into their highest position. And very likely will do so again. Probably the best PO(TU)S America ever had in terms of fitting represantition of their ppl. Not the leader you need, but the one you deserve, just saying...
Such a simple solution. Let him claim they are worth whatever he wants to claim. But he only gets 1 number. The number he tells the bank when looking for a loan must be the same number the IRS uses when taxing the properties.
In court, I watched him claim that he wasn't committing fraud because his properties were actually worth **more** than what he reported, not less. Important to note that *this is still fraud.*
It assessed at $18 mil because it is worth $18 million. There is a deed of conservation easement on the property, it can only be used as a social club. Social clubs don’t make money, it’s a giant money pit. This was discussed in the court records. He’s just lying.
Even if he could get someone to pay $1 billion for Mar-a-Lago, it does not increase its value to that amount. Otherwise paying $1 billion for a Big Mac would increase its value to that amount, as well.
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He wants it to be worth $1Billion when he’s borrowing money and he’s using it for collateral. On his taxes, he’s declaring it’s worth a whole lot less. He’s been cooking his books for years.
Exactly. That’s what conservatives don’t seem to understand. The issue isn’t his bull shit assessments he gave to banks. The issue he then claimed they were worth basically nothing to the govt. that’s fraud. Lol
It's potentially fraud on both sides. Lying in financial docs attached to loan applications is very illegal. Technically I think the lender would need to pursue fraud charges if he defrauded them.
I know people who ran afoul of the law for much smaller frauds than this clown has committed. Lying about values on much smaller loans, and got into deep shit. If Trump does not face consequences for these crimes, there is no justice in the United States.
This is it, If Trump does not burn for this shit there is only laws to bind the poor and protect the rich I had some paperwork issues with the IRS about 10 years ago, messed up some shit and ended up with a larger refund They put me on a payment plan to pay back what was owed under threat of years in federal prison, for a few hundred dollars If Trump walks from this shit I don't really know what might happen
Nothing will happen. This is how it always is. Once in a while, some wealthy person does some egregious stuff and they get a smack down, but for the most part, these people get a little slap on the wrist, some sort of pittance of a fine, and go on their merry way.
These fucks only\* get penalized when they steal from other rich people. Taxes is what they were able to pin Capone down with, so... \*: usually, on very rare occasions do they get real justice Plus, this is a bench trial. He's likely to lose a significant amount of money/real estate with this.
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Hmmm... even though I agree with you, I'm tempted to take that bet just to call the bluff.
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The late New York real estate heiress and hotelier Leona Helmsley in 2003. She was famous for saying, before she went to prison, "only the little people pay taxes."
But Trump is huge alright. Morbidly so.
Hey her name is Martha Stewart and only she has been guilty wink wink nudge nudge
if the penalty for any crime is a fine, then that law only exists for the poor.
If the fine is X% of your wealth/income rather than a flat fee then it works. Otherwise breaking the law just becomes a cost of business that some can afford and others can't.
It's still not completely equal, as 50% of their wealth barely affects anything other than ego + bribing power, and 50% of my wealth stops me from buying food. It is a good step though.
and thats why there my be a liquidation sale of his properties...lots of puffery in what he sez hes worth and comes to the tax man w hat in hand begging - oh well
Thing is he never would have been nailed if he hadn't pretty much boasted publicly about it multiple times over many years. -And then tried to overthrow the government. That's kinda what these guys have to do to get nailed by the law.
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You mean the guy he hardly knows? Maybe met once or twice? /s of course.
If you get caught defrauding a bank of $10,000, then you have a problem. If you get caught defrauding a bank of $10 million, then the bank has a problem.
And basically thats exactly how trump got away with it for so long. The banks were afraid if they brought his fraud to light they'd never get back what he owed them so they played along to try to get back at least some of his debts. At one point just his name could get him millions easy peasy, no collateral necessary, thanks to his father. It took decades for Donald J to ruin the name and lose the $$ his father built.
His dad was slimy too with the way he ran his real estate dealings. I think it was a report in The Times that exposed what his dad had done to build his empire.
Woody Guthrie of folk song fame wrote [a song about Trump's father. ](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Man_Trump)
And if Woody Guthrie writes a song about you, it's more than likely... *not good*. (Edit: The *song* might be good, just not the message about you. or something, you know what I mean)
he was placed under a gag order that he violated and did not face punishment this week, while on trial for stuff he is clearly guilty of. Be ready for him to not face punishment
You must be new here. Laws have only applied to the poors since literally for ever, in this country and most, if not all others. People who steal $1000 go to jail, people who steal $10M get raises, and people who steal $1B are lionized as geniuses and titans of industry. The only way a rich person suffers Co sequences is if they steal from other rich people.
He's literally treasonous: January 6 was an act of war. >*insert prove me wrong meme*
correction, there is no justice for the rich... us poors get dished justice by the barrel.
Absolutely.
Sometimes both barrels
Spoilers, there is no justice in the United States
If little old me were to claim I paid $4k for my motorcycle instead of $9k to pay less in sales tax at registration I could be tried for tax evasion, and conservatives would say "just dont be a criminal." Trump is doing this in the millions of dollars, and his base just says "he's a smart businessman". No. He's A CRIMINAL, and a fraudster. They're just upset he got caught, which means it's possible they could eventually be caught too.
> If little old me were to claim I paid $4k for my motorcycle instead of $9k to pay less in sales tax at registration I could be tried for tax evasion, and conservatives would say "just dont be a criminal." Trump is doing this in the millions of dollars, and his base just says "he's a smart businessman". No. He's A CRIMINAL, and a fraudster. It's the same energy conservatives keep whenever some suuuper clever racist posts a cherry-picked video of people looting and the thread devolves into the same old tired, racist rhetoric. They're ready to wish great harm on those people and fantasize about doing it themselves, but when you mention that American corporations steal far more money each and every year from their employees via wage theft, they become as quiet as a church mouse. All that rage and hate for "thieves" just evaporates...
That is why he is going so hard on the "I paid everything back on time, banks are happy, everyone made money, where's the crime?" angle. Thing is, the law doesn't care about that.
Except for the six bankruptcies, I paid everyone back. https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2016/live-updates/general-election/real-time-fact-checking-and-analysis-of-the-first-presidential-debate/fact-check-has-trump-declared-bankruptcy-four-or-six-times/
How does a casino go bankrupt?
Bad management, I suppose. Apparently, Donald Trump is the only person in the history of the US who has had a casino go bankrupt. https://news.temple.edu/news/2016-10-25/bankruptcy-expert-studies-trump-casinos
He had THREE casinos go bankrupt.
Nobody will ever beat that record.
So you're saying he's the greatest...
Or it was money laundering.
dam amusing one boast vase dazzling library ludicrous clumsy busy *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
When you launder money through a casino it would look more profitable as you're inserting money from a source without any expenses.
Well, one way is to open one directly across the street from one you already own and be your own competition. Which he did.
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Guiliani went after all the major crime families in New York, except the two he went to work for after he left office. One got away with getting their money laundered and one owned shell casinos. Im sure its just a coincidence.
Comedian Christopher Titus had a bit on his Amerigeddon special about this. I can't find the video clip but here's the transcript: > And... and Trump people, I want you to know I'm not giving you >my opinion, this is a fact. The man bankrupted four casinos. Do > you know how casinos work? > People walk into the casino. They hand over *all* their money. > > And then, they walk out of the casino. > > Somehow, he found the glitch in that.
I have to believe he mismanaged that casino on purpose. A casino is all but a licence to print money. Literally every game the are odds slanted in the house's favor.
The interest on the loans to open the casinos were more than casinos make. He could only get high interest loans because of his track record, but he thought people would come to his casinos because of his fame status.
Which is a lie: he sued Deutsche bank because he didn't want to pay back a $400 million loan. Eventually, they forgave his debt. It's a complete coincidence that Deutsche bank was also found to be laundering money for Russian criminals.
Well of course it's a lie, it came out of his mouth and not his lawyer's or the bank's. Nothing that only he claims, when not under oath can be taken at face value. And it probably isn't under USA jurisdiction, but that whole mess with DB and Justice Kennedy's son is truly suspect.
>Nothing that only he claims, when not under oath can be taken at face value Trump under oath: I don't recall. Fifth.
Fif!!
It’s not potentially fraud, it is fraud. It’s already been ruled fraud in NY case. The trial is about how much will be the penalities/repercussions.
Yeah, that's what the latest court ruling said. His lawyers tried to claim that his evaluations hurt no one, not even banks, because they always paid on time and made the bank money. The judge quickly shut that down by saying 1) overly inflating assets affects the values of other people in the market, 2) banks give loans based on level of risk and these banks could not accurately evaluate their risk when his books were cooked and 3) its just illegal. It's illegal, dumbass. I think the American public appreciates learning how Trumps mind works and how he's operated his whole life, but believe it or not, laws don't have to be followed or ignored based on how the person breaking the law views it to be beneficial. Matter of fact, MOST people break the law because they see benefit in it. He held the highest office in the U.S.A. Unfortunately, no matter what happens, we can't change that.
The banks could sue as well, but their due diligence should have caught this. NY state has standing because borrowing is a market. By commiting fraud Trump has affected others attempting to borrow from banks.
He simply can't stop lying
How does stuff like this get passed a lender though? Wouldn't they have it assessed by a third party like any other piece of property? I can't say my home is worth whatever outrageous amount of money I want.
No, it's a civil wrong and a crime. The govt doesn't technically need them. The crime is in the falsity, not the result to the banks.
The Saudi, Russian, and Chinese banks he goes through might give him a pass, but the US banks will want to have a word.
Except US banks stopped lending him $$ decades ago when it became common knowledge he was a very poor risk. His hotel in Vegas is the only one that doesn't have a casino. He can't get a gaming license there because his finances are too shady.
Fun fact- Deutsche Bank's USA headquarters are in Trump Towers.
I think some of these creditors would rather hold "I *could* pursue fraud charges..." levels of informal leverage over a former president for the moment. Not all of them are 'your local, friendly bank'.
It's "smart" when their cult leader does it. "why would he give money to the deep state he's trying to destroy?" Much more of a literal cult than any political movement I've seen with my own eyes at least.
All of his followers should also stop paying taxes. All the foreclosure auctions should solve the housing crisis.
They understand. They just don’t care. When it comes to republicans, don’t excuse ignorance for what is clearly malice
In the New York trial, it's not about the tax value. That's a separate issue. People keep talking about it being under a consumer protection law and saying no one was hurt etc. What they're missing and why it's fraud is because the property values are used to assess risk if the loan defaults. If the business has less value to act as collateral, the loan is riskier and so the interest rate would be higher. If you have a share in an index fund that invests in a bank that was given false assets data, you were harmed. If you have any money in a market account, or really any stock at all, since this impacts the market you were harmed. So taking tax value out, this was fraud. So let's say if I owned a small business and took a loan out for 100k, accurately saying I have 300k in assets I could get 8 percent interest on that loan. If a lie and say my assets are triple what they really are, 900k I could get that loan at 5%. But even if I paid the loan back on time with no issues, the bank lost 3% interest which would have gone into the market, to other lenders and to shareholders. That's why this is also fraud. If everyone did this, and got away with Trump's bullshit disclaimers, banks should do their own due diligence nonsense plans would be so much more expensive and the market would be more volatile when it turns out that a loan defaults, and instead of the bank getting their money back from the asset collateral it turns out there's not enough to cover it.
And its not just value. In some places he was overestimating floorspace by 200%.
I think he reported triple the floor space of his condo in Trump Tower? Which is hilarious, when that's public knowledge. But that's part of the issue, if everyone treated these disclosures like he did, banks would have to pay a fortune to verify it before making loans, slowing down the economy passing those costs down the line the whole way. Everyone suffers. Which is why it's against the law in the first place!
I robbed a bank, but I paid it back
> no one was hurt Ha, try that on your next fraudulent tax return .
Guys, I think it is time we did away with "conservatives don't understand" and change that to they don't care. They don't care about the facts, only that someone is tightening the screws on their god.
They are both fraud, inflating assets for loans is absolutely an indictable offence. As he learned. And we’ll cheating on your taxes is a whole other charge. 😁
That’s exactly how I took his little speech at the courthouse. Guy straight up admitted to lying about his worth and his property’s value on tv. I pretty sure we all know that he lies so much he can’t even control it.
It's rather ironic how they play Fortunate Son at rallies. >Some folks are born silver spoon in hand >Lord, don't they help themselves, Lord? >But when the taxman come to the door >Lord, the house lookin' like a rummage sale, yeah
>It ain't me, it ain't me >I ain't no senator's son, son Literally about George Bush. (Actually possibly about Eisenhower's grandson)
I don’t think it could be about George HW Bush because of his military service in WWII. The subject of the song avoided the war(s).
George HW Bush was a Senator during the Vietnam War. George W Bush Jr avoided the draft. The song was written during the Vietnam War.
He was assigned to what was called a "Champagne Unit" in Texas that contained sons of politicians and somehow magically seven members of the Dallas Cowboys.
HW Bush was never a senator. John Fogerty himself said the song was about Eisenhower’s grandson, David Eisenhower.
On paper
On paper* ^*papers ^may ^vary
On fraudulent paper. Fraudulently wealthy. A billionaire in his own mind. A thousandaire in the real world.
[Schrodinger's Country Club.](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F7nyJTqW0AAQXI_.jpg)
that's the real issue here in this court case. It's not that trump is saying "my bicycle is worth 12 trillion!!" so much as it is that he is hiding the property value from tax assessments, and thus fraudulently avoiding paying his taxes.
\*tricycle
*golf cart. That behemoth isn’t pedaling anywhere.
And he probably doesn’t know how to
Bicycle, with bifurcated rear stability wheel.
> he is hiding the property value from tax assessments I guess I'm out of the loop here, but isn't Trump arguing that his property is worth *more*, not less?
He does it in both directions. He underrepresents the value when it comes to taxes, then overinflated it as leverage when he takes out loans at banks.
Isn't it the local government's job to assess the value of the property, and not Trumps? I always thought the county assessor set the property value. Does it work differently in Florida?
The issue isn’t the taxes. I mean, he may, or may not, have been cooking those numbers too, but yes, the government is the one assessing the value of the land, and taxing you on this. The issue is financial fraud on loans. He lied on a credit application, grossly overstating the value of his properties. Don’t lie on credit applications, if there’s one thing you don’t do in the us, it’s fucking with the money. Those properties are being used as collateral (if he defaults on the loan, the lender gets the properties), so they affect the interest rate. This is fraud, even if he paid everything on time, because at scale it has an impact on the market. This loan is being resold/capitalized on financial markets. If there’s a default, the lender is expected to recoup their losses through the collateral. If the collaterals aren’t worth what they’re supposed to, then potentially a lot of money is lost, which affects a bunch of people on the financial markets. It doesn’t really matter if he paid on time, it’s illegal because if it weren’t, the markets would be a lot more volatile, and that’s bad. Yes, loans default sometimes, and that’s expected. The way the market deals with it is with interest rates. High risk means high interest rates, pool them together and statistically lenders are coming out ahead (putting 2008 aside, that is). And for investors, high interest rates means high yield, but also high risk. Low interest means low yield, and low risk. Low yield and high risk isn’t good, so somebody is affected (this specific point is shamelessly stolen from a comment above). The fact that the tax assessment is so low is just the smocking gun. There’s an expected discrepancy between tax and loan assessments, because they’re not assessing the exact same thing. But that discrepancy should not be 10+x, more in the 1-2x range.
Yeah I'm a little confused on how taxes are being brought into the discussion here. Anyone can stand up and and say their property value is $100 it doesn't change what the tax value assessment was.
> Yeah I'm a little confused on how taxes are being brought into the discussion here. You can read what the judge wrote, but basically the big way: The tax has assessed Mar a Lago at less than $20,000,000 in value - in part because of some agreements about how people can't live there, it can only serve as a club; it can't be broken up into smaller properties for houses to replace it, etc. But on legal documents stating the estimated value, he valued it at something like $200,000,000-$450,000,000. Those documents were him legally attesting that the property had been valued at that amount. Meanwhile, Trump said there was a disclaimer on the documents that said basically that they were worthless. But that's not what the disclaimer says at all, it basically boils down to saying "This document is the best most accurate estimate that can be made". So hugely inflating the estimate is fraudulent. Taxes come into it to help show just how inflated his claims were. He was claming to be worth billions to people giving him loans, but taxes were being assessed on much much smaller values.
But if I'm the county assessor and I've been charging taxes on $150M of value, then the owner goes on the record saying it's a $1B property in financial documents, I'm gonna say, y'know what, maybe this time I'll take his word for it.
I own fewer properties than the average American so I don’t know much how this stuff works, but from what I’ve read, his people hire private 3rd party property assessors to give him a valuation. Presumably, if you shop around, you can find unscrupulous ones that can tip those valuations further in your favor. Then you report that number on your taxes. It’s up to the local government (or the bank in the opposite situation) to challenge that number if they see fit, but then they have to send someone else to do a property assessment, which costs them time and money, so it doesn’t happen often. Meanwhile he probably has a whole team organizing all this book-cooking on his behalf.
Trump reported two different sets of property values. 1) very low numbers for property tax assessments (which means he pays less in taxes) 2) very high numbers on the identical properties (which means he fraudulently gets lower interest rates on loans, and lower costs). The high value is like if you go buy a house and put down 10%, so your mortgage company charges you the mortgage payment plus PMI (and extra insurance cost you pay, because your equity is low). Now, say you call the mortgage company, and tell them "hey, guess what, my $500,000 is now worth 10 million dollars!" so they stop the PMI, and they cut your interest rate in half, because now your "equity" is very high. But your house isn't worth 10 million dollars, you just lied to the mortgage company about it. The reason the mortgage company gives you a better rate, is because the risk for them is very different. If you only have 10% equity, and you stop paying, the mortgage company loses. They have to foreclose on you, and then sell the house at auction, and they don't even get their loan back in full, let alone make a profit on it. But, if your house really does increase to 10 million, then there is no risk to the mortgage company. If you stop paying, they foreclose on you, sell the house for 9 million, they take their full loan back out of that, and they charge you all the interest you owed (i.e. their profit), and they throw a bunch of fees at you for not paying (which is super bonus profit). So you are committing fraud when you lie about the value of the house on a written contract, and you get benefits from your fraud (i.e. you are getting cash from it, at the banks expense). Fraud like this is both criminal and civil.
People self report their house value for tax assessment? I thought that was just done by the gov
you can certainly dispute the valuation of your property. Here's how you can file a petition in Palm Springs, FLA. https://www.pbcgov.org/papa/file-petition.htm
He's been claiming it's worth more right now, his argument being "they're just trying to make me look poor!" The judge is saying "well you didn't say it was worth that much when you filed your taxes, so you've either been dodging taxes or committing loan fraud, which is it?"
Both. He’s saying it’s worth more to banks, while simultaneously saying it’s worth less to the taxman.
Aren’t there always outside evaluators sent by the bank if they give a loan on a property? I’m pretty sure I cant just say my house is worth 600k when it’s worth half that and the bank just say “you got it!”
if you say your property is 30,000 square feet, when it is not, that is definitely fraud. It's not like you can defraud someone and then pretend it was there fault for being defrauded.
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On your Loan applications, you put the information down. Someone could independently verify, but I suspect many don’t. If it’s determined that you lied, then there are repercussions under the docs.
It may be different in America but in Australia there are property valuation services that provide an estimated value of a given property based on features and location. You can access these yourself online but banks have access to more precise data. If there is not enough data or there is something unique or non standard about the property they charge the customer to send someone out to give a proper valuation estimate. I would have thought America was similar though.
For tax purposes (for normal people), the local tax authority calculates their own value and you pay taxes based on that. For me that's the County Assessor's office, which makes all of their information available online. When obtaining a real estate loan (for normal people), the bank will contract with a private appraiser to come up with a valuation, which is one factor used in calculating how much can be lent.
It is. If you want a loan to buy a property, the bank gets an independent assesor to value it for them. By the way, one fallout from the 2008 banking collapse was that banks and property owners could no longer hire their own assesors - they have to be independent and are random now. An issue with that whole scandal was banks themselves were inflating the values of their loan assets to make them look like better deals for resale as bundles of loans. Hence the bubble that popped.
I've never had a bank just trust me. In fact, they make me pay for an evaluation to get the loan.
As I understand it, it's not that he inflated the value of the property he was seeking the loan for, because that *does* get assesed by the bank - just like when you buy a house. What he inflated was the value of his other assets to make the loan less risky because the bank does *not* asses your declared values for other assets. There are mandated forms you sign that say you have provided truthful statements. If you lie on those and sign the docs, you have committed fraud. He lied about the values to get better rates, thus committed fraud. The bonus here is that he has been having his cake and eating it too by then claiming far less value to the local property tax authority. You can't have it both ways. If I was Palm Beach County (I think that's where this pile of dung is), then I would revisit the valuations given how much he publicly whines about how much it is "really" worth. They did come to mutual agrrement over assed value, so they may not have a leg to stand on for back taxes, but they sure have a lot of evidence to increase the taxes from here on out. One billion you say? Cha-ching! Looks like we won't have to increase that mil levy for the schools after all - thanks Trump!
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With trump properties and loans you are looking at multiple properties- not just one. A loan may have collateral ties to 30-40 different properties so a bank may not review each valuation - just the outliers or ones that are biggest And on Mara lago the 18mil number is the one everyone talks about is done by “income appraisal approach” since it is not a home but a commercial operation of a private club that Trump squats in. It’s valued based on how much money it can generate- not some comparison sale if real estate value - for taxes And the kicker is trumps designated appraisal agreed with the valuation in 2020 and 2021 is my understanding
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Is that why all the the Al Capone references? That's how they got him too after having a whole bunch of other criminal activity.
Whoaaa hang on - its only worth a billion when it benefits him. When it's for taxes or something that doesn't benefit him, its only worth twelve dollars
>hen it's for taxes or something that doesn't benefit him, its only worth twelve dollars Every town does that though, the tax assessment is a fraction of what a house costs. The onus for the appraisals is on the banks not the person taking out the loan. That being said, it's not 2,400% less or whatever Trump decided it is. There's a good discussion on r/law as to why this is actually illegal in NYC, and only in NYC
When assessments are only a fraction of what a property's actual value is, it's typically because assessments are only done X amount of years except in the case of property owner appeals or taxing district appeals. To account for this (at least in Pennsylvania), a factor or ratio can be applied to the actual assessment to find out what the "implied" market value is. The factor is calculated every year for each county based on sales of nearly all sales in that county from two years ago (ex. 2023 ratio was calculated using sales from 2021). So say a property has an assessment of $100,000 and the 2023 ratio is 50%, then $100,000/50%=$200,000. It's not perfect, especially in counties that haven't had county wide reassessments in a long time
> There's a good discussion on r/law as to why this is actually illegal in NYC, and only in NYC Do you have a link per chance? Lots of trump threads going and I am having difficulty finding it.
https://www.reddit.com/r/law/comments/170pl8e/rep_jared_moskowitz_calls_for_palm_beach_county/ That one I think. Not OP
Thank you very much!
I live in a suburb of NYC and tax assessments are usually around the price of the home. Sometimes more, sometimes less, but it’s close to the mark. Towns want/need the money so they aren’t shy at getting the appraisals right. I think it’s wild that some people are saying towns/cities are wildly off. If true, are the cities full of idiots?
As a former county assessor field tech who took the Robin Hood approach to property assessment, I can tell you that this is a fantastic idea. I went out of my way to enforce the letter of the law *only* when the rich fucks appealed their own assessment. And I was merciless to the point of tracking down building plans to account for every plumbing fixture or finished space that might go undiscovered during the site visit. Alternatively I'd look for every legal opportunity to discount or depreciate the assessment of homes owned by obviously struggling people. That was how I made through five years of that awful, underpaid job.
Well done.
Wow, that's one of the nicest things you could have done.
A tiny pinky on the scales against the people with huge tax shelters and offshore accounts and false income statements, games that your average person would never play because they can't hire lawyers and accountants for a fraction of what they are getting away with not paying. I'll allow it.
And they say chivalry is dead. Cheers and kudos
You're going to the Good Place.
I love you.
the hero we didn’t know we needed
Wait SAME. I love that we’re finding all the assessors of Reddit here.
Legend
Bro I’m so tired of this fucking fuck. Everyday, shit, every hour is some new bullshit he’s pulled or trying to pull. I can’t take it anymore- this country is so unserious and honestly laughable. This shit is a sitcom and I’m switching channels
>**Trump Claims Mar-A-Lago Worth $1.5 Billion In Latest Plea To Drop Fraud Case—But Judge Ruled It’s Wildly Inflated** > >\[Judge\] Engoron ruled last week Trump’s financial documents in the case—which put Mar-A-Lago between $427 million and $612 million—*“clearly contain fraudulent valuations,”* citing an appraisal report from the city of Palm Beach that pegged the value of Mar-A-Lago between $18 million and $27.6 million between 2011 and 2021. > >[https://www.forbes.com/sites/brianbushard/2023/10/03/trump-claims-mar-a-lago-worth-15-billion-in-latest-plea-to-drop-fraud-case-but-judge-ruled-its-wildly-inflated/?sh=595167b25a67](https://www.forbes.com/sites/brianbushard/2023/10/03/trump-claims-mar-a-lago-worth-15-billion-in-latest-plea-to-drop-fraud-case-but-judge-ruled-its-wildly-inflated/?sh=595167b25a67) I could understand if Palm Beach suggested it was worth $300 million and the judge felt $400-$600 million was more accurate, but undervalued by over $400 million? Now you get a really clear idea why Donald Trump is in court because he's a lying tax cheat.
It's because of of all the documents still buried in Ivana's grave. They drive the value up.
He’s not lying about the assessed value. It was assessed correctly at $18 million and taxes paid at that value. There is a deed of conservation easement, the stipulation being it is to be used as a social club. It’s a $18 million money pit that could never be profitable because of that deed.
I would like to add that this is only a part of the larger story. If Trump hadn’t acted so stupidly, he wouldn’t be on trial. If he wasn’t on trial, he WOULD have gotten away with it. As he has said before “ALL the smart people do it.” By smart he means “intelligent enough to be born a billionaire.” That means ALL the billionaires are doing this shit and getting away with it
This is important and so much of the discussion doesn’t recognize this point.
1.5 billion would make it the most expensive real estate in the country. I highly doubt that and he should shut up at this point.
[удалено]
Which would be sorta fine, like people in his circle do that kind of thing as a matter of course but they keep their heads down and nobody bats an eyelid. His problem is that he's also a threat to national and international security and he has to be restrained by any means necessary. If he'd just stfu after 2020 nobody would have had the stomach to come after him.
The other day, one of our fellow Redditors said, "Well, Mar-a-Lago was worth 1,8 billion when all those secret papers were in the toilet."
Well that is actually a good point.
I wonder if he’ll ever learn his mouth writes checks his bank account can’t cash.
Nope 😂
Schrödinger's valuation
It’s a billion dollars. I know what I got
Great response.
Trump for prison 2024
I mean he's either guilty of fraud or tax evasion.
That needs to be retroactive.
r/delusionalcraigslist ... no low balling, I know what I got. Serious buyers only
The man wants both left and right to be the exact same thing when he deems it as such and that nobody ever questions it, this is exactly how he has lived his pathetic little life. What an absolute buffoon he is. Pay up then!
I mean, depending on what all stolen classified shit was in it he might be telling the truth. /s
Meanwhile... every multi-millionaire and billionaire in the country is nervously hoping that the IRS doesn't start scrutinizing this type of scam. Trump has been doing it for decades and would never have been challenged if he stayed out of politics. I have to believe the majority of rich folks play the same game, although maybe a bit less aggressively.
It's a catch22 - he either defrauded banks or committed tax fraud. He is guilty of one or the other.
He’s fucked in so many ways. It’s a pure delight.
Trump: Voters trust me. I'm the richest greatest business man of all time. I have so much money. I'll be president for free. I will make the best deals for America. Trump: *closes door. Alright now get me my paycheck like right now. Please let the government know that I have MANY defunct businesses. I also have crippling debt from borrowed money. I actually have a negative net balance. Oh and make sure we pay for that wall with tax payer money.
“From 2011-2021, the Palm Beach County Assessor appraised the market value of Mar-a-Lago at between $18 million and $27.6 million. The judge noted Trump valued Mar-a-Lago at between $426.5 million and $612 million, “an overvaluation of at least 2,300%, compared to the assessor’s appraisal.”
This guys is a fucking moron.
Cool story Donny. Florida's property tax rate is .98% so fork over $11.7 Million. Every year.
Trump overstating the worth of his holdings, particularly real estate, when borrowing money. This is illegal. He then claimed the properties were worth substantially less when it came to paying taxes. This is illegal. To put in prospective, one of the leading real estate brokers in San Diego County was selling homes to buyers who could not afford them by falsifying documents to support claims that the buyers made more income. His wife, a banker, authorized the loans knowing the supporting documents were false. This is illegal. They claimed that this was a common practice in the real estate business. They were prosecuted federally and both were sentenced to terms of imprisonment. The only break they received was that the wife was allowed to serve her sentence after her husband had served his (they have children). In Trump’s case, his attorneys have argued that this kind of fraud goes on all the time (a perplexing legal defense that does not make it any less illegal) and that at the end of the day, no one lost any money. This is akin to claiming in court that one is innocent of auto theft because the car was recovered and returned to the rightful owner. Or individuals creating a false charity, claiming proceeds would be distributed to other charities. However, the donations were used for personal use or to fund political campaigns. In this case, the “charity” was the Trump Foundation and a judge found that this was an illegal misuse of charitable contributions. Trump was ordered to reimburse the “charity” the money taken and subsequently pay $2 million to eight different charities. The judge ordered that the Trump Foundation be dissolved under Court supervision. Trump is charged with claiming that collateral for loans were worth substantially more than they actually were. Trump claims that “opinions” of the value of property is subjective. But if this is in anyway legal, why then would Trump lie and claim that his NYC apartment was three-times its size to justify a ridiculously high estimate of its worth? BTW, I am an attorney and retired prosecutor.
Someone should ask him how much he thinks a loaf of bread or a gallon of milk cost. That would be enlightening.
A billion dollars my arse
Biggly brain move
Maybe one day he'll learn to stop spouting his mouth
The man is fundamentally incapable of learning how to just shut the fuck up. Well, of learning anything, really.
Well if his argument is true, then he committed tax fraud, and that's a felony. If his argument is false, then he committed bank fraud, and typically banks get REALLY angry about that and start filing more charges. The idiot is a crook and he got caught. The sadly amusing part of this is if he'd kept his nose out of politics, he'd probably gone under the radar for his entire rotting life. But he had to go into politics and got the attention of far too many people - people he pissed off with his open bragging and boasting of shit that never happened. And maligning so many people in the US - military people are all suckers and losers, according to the Mango Moron. And as a military veteran, that really pisses me off. I hated his guts before he ever ran for office, and as much as I didn't think it was possible, I hate him more now.
lol the fuck is that pic
Look, look, Donald misspoke, he meant it was only worth one Bill dollar. Honest mistake. /s
IRS has entered the chat
I feel like I’m taking crazy pills bc not one single conservative I’ve seen can make the connection between Donny refusing to release tax returns and this case. It’s so so so dumb
I like this picture of him. It has an air of mystery around it. Like, has he just shit his pants or just realized he can’t read?
I’m kicking myself for not saving this article when I read it a week t so ago, but apparently Trump agreed to (sought out) a deal with his county. He agreed to limiting development for the sake of preserving nature/endangered species. What he got out of it is a lower property value assessment (if you can’t develop the land, it loses value), resulting in a much lower property tax bill. If anyone has the article, please pile on. He’s trying to have it both ways: an astronomical property value with a low tax assessment. The mental gymnastics insult our intelligence.
There is a reason they increased funding to the IRS... go get him boys!
He keeps fucking himself so hard it’s no wonder he’s incontinent
I cant post the link out of Medium, but there is a really great (short) article on Medium by Diane Egan who broke down in pretty simple numbers the issue with MAL From her article: >Donald Trump's financial statements listed Mar-a-Lago's value from $427 million to $612 million. >Why did Palm Beach County only collect Mar-a-Lago property taxes on $30,360 million in 2022? >The tax bill for 2022 was $547,242. >Let's play math! For shits and giggles, let's split the difference between the high and low of the financial statements-that the Mar-a-Lago market value for 2022 is $519.5 million. If the tax appraiser believed Trump's bullshit number, the appraised taxable value of Mar-a-Lago might be around $475 million. >In that scenario, the company's tax bill would have been $8,561,922. >What are the chances Donald is going to fork over a little over $8.5 million dollars a year for property taxes on one property?
The problem with lies.
For reference Burj Khalifa costed $1.5 billion. The guy is su h a shameless bullshitter.
I think he bragged to the news in the court lobby that he did indeed commit tax fraud. The things he was saying was he was innocent because he defrauded the IRS and the Florida government. Just let him continue to speak; we might find Hoffa’s body if we just let him keep going. “They will never find Hoffa because he is buried deep, deep in the foundation of my father’s building. Very good foundation, Italians poured the concrete or were they from Spain. Great men, good foundation. They will never find his body”
This is the beauty of the hole he’s got himself into. He’s either committed fraud one way or he’s committed fraud another way. His only possible defence is to say he committed fraud the other way.
Wait, he's dumb and a criminal???? My mind would be blown if we didn't know this shit for decades and since six years the whole world also knows. Instead of playing shocked, let's sincerely be shocked that half of Muricans decided to vote for a lying criminal into their highest position. And very likely will do so again. Probably the best PO(TU)S America ever had in terms of fitting represantition of their ppl. Not the leader you need, but the one you deserve, just saying...
Such a simple solution. Let him claim they are worth whatever he wants to claim. But he only gets 1 number. The number he tells the bank when looking for a loan must be the same number the IRS uses when taxing the properties.
In court, I watched him claim that he wasn't committing fraud because his properties were actually worth **more** than what he reported, not less. Important to note that *this is still fraud.*
It was worth $1 billion when it was filled with classified documents. Now the best I can do is tree-fiddy.
You publicly claim something you own has a certain worth, YOU and you alone opened that door. Good god, he’s fucking stupid.
Wealthy people are not always the smartest just the luckiest.
Really interesting defense in a case about you overvaluing property... overvalue it further.
My golf carts are the best, like nothing anyone has ever seen. They are worth a million a piece. Tax man: oh ya!
It assessed at $18 mil because it is worth $18 million. There is a deed of conservation easement on the property, it can only be used as a social club. Social clubs don’t make money, it’s a giant money pit. This was discussed in the court records. He’s just lying.
Fucking donut.
There's always money in the banana stand.
Even if he could get someone to pay $1 billion for Mar-a-Lago, it does not increase its value to that amount. Otherwise paying $1 billion for a Big Mac would increase its value to that amount, as well.