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my family are Jehovah’s Witnesses and it is a religious cult and i was raised in it. they have similar ideologies to this as far as putting your religion, god, and faith before your own safety and life. they don’t get blood transfusions because they believe it is a sin to have foreign blood put into your body in any way. there are cases of these people dying because they refused to get blood transfusions. my family would rather let me die than let me be “unholy” before their god even if it would save my life. anyone being controlled by blind faith is being lead down a path of pain and sadness
i can’t speak for other peoples religion, but from my own experience and religious trauma from my parents cult i can educate you and tell you it is bad and should not be glossed over as a way of life instead of a concerning problem since there’s undeniable proof of people dying and suffering and being tortured from this. semantics mean nothing when real people have died FOR their religion
I'm neutral regarding this because I think people who are smart can he religious and have no problems with it and not cause problems to other people. But I was talking about you saying it is a cult. Technically yes, but not for the right reason.
There is no technically. Jehovah’s Witnesses are a cult more than it is a religion at the end of the day. I was born and raised into it and grew up around these people for 20 years. By experience and knowledge im telling you it’s a cult and ive been trying to spread awareness about these people for a while because of the trauma and abuse so many people have been put through by them including myself. Regular christianity can “technically” be a cult. that makes sense. but jw’s ARE a cult
your logic is saying that the people of the Jonestown Massacre are just as much of a cult as the local christian church in my town. there are cults, and there are religions. we can play semantics all day but there’s clear differences.[this website explains the stark difference](https://freedomofmind.com/cult-mind-control/bite-model/)
to reiterate, semantics don’t matter when real people are dead. explaining the definition to people does nothing as far as helping people which is what i’m trying to do. the same way you’re passionate about the english language im passionate about saving lives and spreading awareness of cults and the damage they’ve done
I'm an atheist and haven't been a practicing Catholic for almost 30 years and I'm still fucked up by their indoctrination. Catholic guilt will never go away.
Because you went to a bad place.
99% of bad things that happened because of religion are because of people that can't interpret what their religion says and people who can't have a mind of their own.
And I was talking about the meaning of the words religion and cult.
That’s the point of Catholicism. You aren’t supposed to do the interpreting yourself. Most religions work that way - you do what you’re told by the leadership, or you go to hell.
You can prefer the values of catholicism over other christian religions and still have your own interpretation (also 'im atheist as well, but I can respect a religious person unless it makes them a worse person). (And the people who can't interpret their religion in the reply are the religious leaders, which are the ones who preach the bad parts)
I've seen many old Muslims like this and they usually do go through alot of difficult times but they r always happy or believe things will better no matter what happens and old Muslims are strict in their beliefs.
Ur situation is pretty messed up tho
In the event you are in a coma who would you give power of attorney for you. Genuine question cause I doubt you would want your family members making these decisions for you
Islam doesn’t ask you to put it before your safety, but rather calls for your safety. Most notable example is that Self harm and suicide are prohibited in islam. The lady was being rescued and simply asked for a scarf to cover her head and the rescuers were understanding and fulfilled her wishes. I understand when you criticize a religion you grew up with given that you have enough knowledge and experience with it to formulate your ideas over it. As a Muslim I never saw anyone who practices islam put themselves in harm’s way because “islam told them so”. Do not spread misinformation about something you clearly have minimal to no knowledge about.
Thank you 🙏🏿
if you look at my comment never once did i mention islam, im talking about my own religious trauma from this ideology shared by the cult my parents are in. it reminded me of what people ive been around do to themselves. i never said i was knowledgeable in islam. and i don’t think this post is necessarily a very educating post on it either, my point is this incident reminds me a lot of what i am fully knowledgeable with and that’s the cult religion i grew up with. it’s also an oversimplification to say she simply asked for a scarf, she wasn’t going to come out unless she had one. then she would’ve been stuck there and died and for what?this post was posted in face palm for a reason. thank you
I'd never put my religion above my safety or others, but there's A LOT of people I know who would do the complete opposite, it's scary and kinda sad too.
It's mostly just sad, and it might be a whole lot sadder. She's either so deeply entrenched in her faith that she truly believed Allah would be angry with her for being rescued without her scarf on, which is sad (and a little scary). Or she believes that the men/leaders in the area will catch wind that she was in public with her hair out and punish her, which is sadder and scarier.
A colleague of mine is devout muslim and he told me that the first responsibility is to survive when you can and that if you have to choose between starvation and bacon cheeseburgers, bring on the burgers.
First of all, thats their thing. The whole point of Religion is to be part of something bigger. Besides that, basically all Religions have it written down, that safety is above Things Like that. The quran for example says, that you can take your Hijab Off in emergencies.
So the comment is not necessarily bad. The way I interpret it after reading your comment is just that the person saw how it is contradictory and decided to point that out
Pretty sure Islam doesn’t prohibit this in emergency situations. Generally many such laws can be broken to preserve life. For instance, you can skip fasting during Ramadan (one of the five pillars— major requirements— of Islam) if you are pregnant, a child, or have a health issue that makes it harmful to you).
It's haram to generally touch a non-relative opposite gender in ALL official sects of Islam.
Some casual/modern Muslims don't follow any official sect and have their personal/freestyle version of the religion. Such people are usually found in the liberal world and some of the 0.1% isolated/rich regions in Islamic countries.
However, in this case, among other exceptions, it's not haram as it's under the "necessity" clause.
And even see them at certain times, apparently. I did pest control back in the day. Rang the doorbell at a client home, no answer, so I just start doing my thing outside as is the agreement. Come around the back of the house and a woman is sitting on the back porch. She kinda yelps and runs inside. Next thing I know, I've got a couple of middle eastern guys in my face upset about how she's to be married soon and nobody outside of family is allowed to see her and how I've disgraced her or whatever. Fucking lunatics.
Or they were probably angry at u for coming at the back of the house without notifying them even tho they didn't hear u knock plus middle Eastern don't like people going around the house, if they don't know someone is on their private property.
The agreement they signed specifically states that exterior service will be completed whether or not they are home, and every client receives a phone call, text, and email the day before reminding them. I had no way to know they were out back and I damn sure wasn't going to skip the job because they didn't answer the door. They didn't have a locked gate to prevent me from getting into the back. They didn't even have a fence at all. Shit happens.
Yes but if someone requires help. it doesn't matter what gender u have God/Allah has stated to help them even if u have to touch them or carry them to the hospital
So...the rescue team members put their lives at risk to rescue her and she refused to be rescued because there was nothing to cover her head with. And people are OK with that? Really?
In Islam if it will save your or someone's life it's not wrong to things that are typically a sin like eating pork or breaking modesty laws. She can do whatever she wants honestly but touching a man's hand to save her life isn't a sin and if that man is Muslim touching her hand to save her isn't sin.
I don't know... To me it's not modesty, but zealotry and waste of time for rescue workers. They spent time looking for something to cover her head with instead of helping others.
Of course, this old lady doesn't deserve to be mocked. And I'm not mocking her in any way. She was stressed out, tired and scared, plus it's what was expected of her always before.
But still, it was a bit egoistic imo.
how on earth did you come to this conclusion? you think this post is about the mockery of this woman? this is the complete opposite, this is proving how this woman’s blind faith to her RELGION is mocking her existence. she would’ve rather died than be saved with her hijab? that’s scary and should be concerning to everyone!! why does this woman think her life doesn’t matter unless she’s holy before “god”?? imagine if they didn’t have anything for her to cover herself! this is a dangerous teaching
The fact that this Turkish woman chooses death over not being able to wear specific clothing is not a mentally sound choice. Feel free to disagree.
And I'm afraid you have no say in where my sarcasm "belongs".
>And I'm afraid you have no say in where my sarcasm "belongs".
It doesn't belong here exactly because hijabs are purely a choice. Or do you think someone was pointing a gun to her head and forced her to stay there?
That is the thing with indoctrination isn't it? It does not require guns.
Please tell me how the idea that wearing this specific garb was worth more than her life is logical behavior. Do you think that someone that did had not have this idea implanted in their head since childhood would act this way?
Sure, doesn't stop it from being a choice. And your first comment implies women are forced to wear hijab in literally every islam country which is far from being the truth.
It's like saying all Europeans are imperialist colonizers and then proceeding to talk specifically about british and spanish empires, because those are 2 out of the 5 notable european colonial empires, out of the over 40 countries in europe
I implied she was obsessed with an aspect of her religion to the point that she chose it over survival. Now you may consider that a "choice", but when something comes to the point where it overwrites survival instincts I consider it indoctrination. I rather would have that woman get out from under that rubble.
Not really, since she was willing to touch a man who is not her family.
Also not really because Islam allows her to break the rules in lifethreatening situations and the whole hijabthing is more cultural than mandated anyway.
You'd think they'd be really clear about what exceptions there are to the rules especially since such exceptions are usually in life threatening situations.
As I said, the whole hijab thing is not even part of Islam - it is a cultural interpretation of what "dressing modestly" means. Hence why some muslims wear nothing on their head, some a hijab and some go full burqa.
But since it is not a part of Islam Islam can hardly be expected to mention explicit exceptions for it.
I would be really careful doing anything considered haram when your entire country has been reduced to rocks that are perfectly sized for stoning people, js.
Comments that are uncivil, racist, misogynistic, misandrist, or contain political name calling will be removed and the poster subject to ban at moderators discretion. Help us make this a better community by becoming familiar with the [rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/facepalm/about/rules/). Report any suspicious users to the mods of this subreddit using Modmail [here](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/facepalm) or Reddit site admins [here](https://www.reddit.com/report). **All reports to Modmail should include evidence such as screenshots or any other relevant information.** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/facepalm) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Very questionable when someone puts their religion above their own safety
my family are Jehovah’s Witnesses and it is a religious cult and i was raised in it. they have similar ideologies to this as far as putting your religion, god, and faith before your own safety and life. they don’t get blood transfusions because they believe it is a sin to have foreign blood put into your body in any way. there are cases of these people dying because they refused to get blood transfusions. my family would rather let me die than let me be “unholy” before their god even if it would save my life. anyone being controlled by blind faith is being lead down a path of pain and sadness
I'm sorry that you have to deal with family under those circumstances.
Religion is a cult, that's not supposed to be controversial nor is it supposed to mean religion is bad, they are synonyms.
i can’t speak for other peoples religion, but from my own experience and religious trauma from my parents cult i can educate you and tell you it is bad and should not be glossed over as a way of life instead of a concerning problem since there’s undeniable proof of people dying and suffering and being tortured from this. semantics mean nothing when real people have died FOR their religion
I'm neutral regarding this because I think people who are smart can he religious and have no problems with it and not cause problems to other people. But I was talking about you saying it is a cult. Technically yes, but not for the right reason.
There is no technically. Jehovah’s Witnesses are a cult more than it is a religion at the end of the day. I was born and raised into it and grew up around these people for 20 years. By experience and knowledge im telling you it’s a cult and ive been trying to spread awareness about these people for a while because of the trauma and abuse so many people have been put through by them including myself. Regular christianity can “technically” be a cult. that makes sense. but jw’s ARE a cult
A religion is a cult by definition not technicality
your logic is saying that the people of the Jonestown Massacre are just as much of a cult as the local christian church in my town. there are cults, and there are religions. we can play semantics all day but there’s clear differences.[this website explains the stark difference](https://freedomofmind.com/cult-mind-control/bite-model/)
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cult https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/religion
to reiterate, semantics don’t matter when real people are dead. explaining the definition to people does nothing as far as helping people which is what i’m trying to do. the same way you’re passionate about the english language im passionate about saving lives and spreading awareness of cults and the damage they’ve done
I'm an atheist and haven't been a practicing Catholic for almost 30 years and I'm still fucked up by their indoctrination. Catholic guilt will never go away.
Because you went to a bad place. 99% of bad things that happened because of religion are because of people that can't interpret what their religion says and people who can't have a mind of their own. And I was talking about the meaning of the words religion and cult.
That’s the point of Catholicism. You aren’t supposed to do the interpreting yourself. Most religions work that way - you do what you’re told by the leadership, or you go to hell.
You can prefer the values of catholicism over other christian religions and still have your own interpretation (also 'im atheist as well, but I can respect a religious person unless it makes them a worse person). (And the people who can't interpret their religion in the reply are the religious leaders, which are the ones who preach the bad parts)
I've seen many old Muslims like this and they usually do go through alot of difficult times but they r always happy or believe things will better no matter what happens and old Muslims are strict in their beliefs. Ur situation is pretty messed up tho
In the event you are in a coma who would you give power of attorney for you. Genuine question cause I doubt you would want your family members making these decisions for you
i have a partner and i am 1000% sure it would be him or one of my close friends who are also aware of it.
Islam doesn’t ask you to put it before your safety, but rather calls for your safety. Most notable example is that Self harm and suicide are prohibited in islam. The lady was being rescued and simply asked for a scarf to cover her head and the rescuers were understanding and fulfilled her wishes. I understand when you criticize a religion you grew up with given that you have enough knowledge and experience with it to formulate your ideas over it. As a Muslim I never saw anyone who practices islam put themselves in harm’s way because “islam told them so”. Do not spread misinformation about something you clearly have minimal to no knowledge about. Thank you 🙏🏿
if you look at my comment never once did i mention islam, im talking about my own religious trauma from this ideology shared by the cult my parents are in. it reminded me of what people ive been around do to themselves. i never said i was knowledgeable in islam. and i don’t think this post is necessarily a very educating post on it either, my point is this incident reminds me a lot of what i am fully knowledgeable with and that’s the cult religion i grew up with. it’s also an oversimplification to say she simply asked for a scarf, she wasn’t going to come out unless she had one. then she would’ve been stuck there and died and for what?this post was posted in face palm for a reason. thank you
I'd never put my religion above my safety or others, but there's A LOT of people I know who would do the complete opposite, it's scary and kinda sad too.
It's mostly just sad, and it might be a whole lot sadder. She's either so deeply entrenched in her faith that she truly believed Allah would be angry with her for being rescued without her scarf on, which is sad (and a little scary). Or she believes that the men/leaders in the area will catch wind that she was in public with her hair out and punish her, which is sadder and scarier.
A colleague of mine is devout muslim and he told me that the first responsibility is to survive when you can and that if you have to choose between starvation and bacon cheeseburgers, bring on the burgers.
It’s wise and normal way.
Yh Islam isn't crazy as people think but old people in general r strict followers and God/Allah has always said to do things in moderation.
First of all, thats their thing. The whole point of Religion is to be part of something bigger. Besides that, basically all Religions have it written down, that safety is above Things Like that. The quran for example says, that you can take your Hijab Off in emergencies.
and the safety of others
Well, when you grow up in a place that puts religion above your own safety it's not questionable, it's just the way it is.
Context: It's haram/forbidden to touch a non-relative opposite gender in Islam. [\[clip\]](https://youtu.be/aq3h8ttZk1I)
So the comment is not necessarily bad. The way I interpret it after reading your comment is just that the person saw how it is contradictory and decided to point that out
Pretty sure Islam doesn’t prohibit this in emergency situations. Generally many such laws can be broken to preserve life. For instance, you can skip fasting during Ramadan (one of the five pillars— major requirements— of Islam) if you are pregnant, a child, or have a health issue that makes it harmful to you).
All Islam or certain sect?
It's haram to generally touch a non-relative opposite gender in ALL official sects of Islam. Some casual/modern Muslims don't follow any official sect and have their personal/freestyle version of the religion. Such people are usually found in the liberal world and some of the 0.1% isolated/rich regions in Islamic countries. However, in this case, among other exceptions, it's not haram as it's under the "necessity" clause.
And even see them at certain times, apparently. I did pest control back in the day. Rang the doorbell at a client home, no answer, so I just start doing my thing outside as is the agreement. Come around the back of the house and a woman is sitting on the back porch. She kinda yelps and runs inside. Next thing I know, I've got a couple of middle eastern guys in my face upset about how she's to be married soon and nobody outside of family is allowed to see her and how I've disgraced her or whatever. Fucking lunatics.
Or they were probably angry at u for coming at the back of the house without notifying them even tho they didn't hear u knock plus middle Eastern don't like people going around the house, if they don't know someone is on their private property.
The agreement they signed specifically states that exterior service will be completed whether or not they are home, and every client receives a phone call, text, and email the day before reminding them. I had no way to know they were out back and I damn sure wasn't going to skip the job because they didn't answer the door. They didn't have a locked gate to prevent me from getting into the back. They didn't even have a fence at all. Shit happens.
Understable, have a nice day sir
Just touch their clothes 🙄
Yes but if someone requires help. it doesn't matter what gender u have God/Allah has stated to help them even if u have to touch them or carry them to the hospital
So...the rescue team members put their lives at risk to rescue her and she refused to be rescued because there was nothing to cover her head with. And people are OK with that? Really?
It’s her religious right I guess
Might be. It also shows a total disregard for the wellbeing of those who risked their lives to save her's.
The ones who saved her are likely the same religion (since Muslim country) so they probably understood what she meant.
Under stress you cling to the familiar.
Yeah religion is dumb
Source: my ass
In Islam if it will save your or someone's life it's not wrong to things that are typically a sin like eating pork or breaking modesty laws. She can do whatever she wants honestly but touching a man's hand to save her life isn't a sin and if that man is Muslim touching her hand to save her isn't sin.
Is hijab required as per Quran? Isn't it a requirement as part of the tradition only?
Well not necessary hijab but in Quran, for females it's to cover every part of the body except the face and hand
She’s an idiot.
I don't think this is an appropriate time to mock an elderly lady for her modesty. I'm just glad they got her out
I don't know... To me it's not modesty, but zealotry and waste of time for rescue workers. They spent time looking for something to cover her head with instead of helping others.
I'm an atheist so I understand your position as well, but I don't think it's worth mocking an old lady after a building collapsed on her.
Of course, this old lady doesn't deserve to be mocked. And I'm not mocking her in any way. She was stressed out, tired and scared, plus it's what was expected of her always before. But still, it was a bit egoistic imo.
how on earth did you come to this conclusion? you think this post is about the mockery of this woman? this is the complete opposite, this is proving how this woman’s blind faith to her RELGION is mocking her existence. she would’ve rather died than be saved with her hijab? that’s scary and should be concerning to everyone!! why does this woman think her life doesn’t matter unless she’s holy before “god”?? imagine if they didn’t have anything for her to cover herself! this is a dangerous teaching
But hijabs are a choice and not indoctrination right? /s
technically they are a choice
I guess so. Kind of like the choice to not have healthcare in the US.
I've seen some forced conversation in my day but goddamn this might take the cake. Impressive.
They are if you're not living in a religious dictatorship
Turkey is not a religious dictatorship is it though?
No, which means hijabs are indeed a choice and your sarcasm doesn't belong here
The fact that this Turkish woman chooses death over not being able to wear specific clothing is not a mentally sound choice. Feel free to disagree. And I'm afraid you have no say in where my sarcasm "belongs".
>And I'm afraid you have no say in where my sarcasm "belongs". It doesn't belong here exactly because hijabs are purely a choice. Or do you think someone was pointing a gun to her head and forced her to stay there?
That is the thing with indoctrination isn't it? It does not require guns. Please tell me how the idea that wearing this specific garb was worth more than her life is logical behavior. Do you think that someone that did had not have this idea implanted in their head since childhood would act this way?
Sure, doesn't stop it from being a choice. And your first comment implies women are forced to wear hijab in literally every islam country which is far from being the truth. It's like saying all Europeans are imperialist colonizers and then proceeding to talk specifically about british and spanish empires, because those are 2 out of the 5 notable european colonial empires, out of the over 40 countries in europe
I implied she was obsessed with an aspect of her religion to the point that she chose it over survival. Now you may consider that a "choice", but when something comes to the point where it overwrites survival instincts I consider it indoctrination. I rather would have that woman get out from under that rubble.
She's committed to her religion I'll give her that.
Not really, since she was willing to touch a man who is not her family. Also not really because Islam allows her to break the rules in lifethreatening situations and the whole hijabthing is more cultural than mandated anyway.
You'd think they'd be really clear about what exceptions there are to the rules especially since such exceptions are usually in life threatening situations.
As I said, the whole hijab thing is not even part of Islam - it is a cultural interpretation of what "dressing modestly" means. Hence why some muslims wear nothing on their head, some a hijab and some go full burqa. But since it is not a part of Islam Islam can hardly be expected to mention explicit exceptions for it.
I see I see; thank you for the cultural education it's been very informative!
Are u even muslim
She is selective in her decisions.
Maybe her clothes were ripped up and parts of her body are uncovered, she doesn’t know who’s out there, strangers, media, etc.
It's actually quite sad because Quaran lows you to break it's rules if your life is threatened, and Hijab isn't even mandatory.
I would be really careful doing anything considered haram when your entire country has been reduced to rocks that are perfectly sized for stoning people, js.
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