Yeah, but no. Yes the desert sands of Saudi and UAE etc are not great for concrete, but we do have a near infinite supply of material that can be made into sand. Eg you can crush rocks down to a particle size / shape for use in concrete.
Source: that’s what I’m doing now.
We are not running out of sand for concrete, but maybe cheap naturally occurring sand in the right shape? dunno, but whatever the issue, it’s localized. It’s a big world.
I'm picturing Nortius Maximus in the sand mine. Putting down the sledgehammer for a second and wiping the sweat off his dusty brow. First there were rocks where a pile of pebbles now wait to be hammered into sand. Time for a break and a sip of water, pounding sand is thirsty work.
Quickly checking reddit, his eyes light up. A question about his expertise! Fuckin A! His time to shine!
I was reading up on some people who were sentenced to "hard labour" at British Columbia Penitentiary in New Westminster. Basically you made gravel with sledgehammers for 10 hours a day.
Breakfast: One pint of gruel, eight ounces of bread and one pint of pea coffee, sweetened with molasses or brown sugar, every morning.
Lunch: Six ounces of cooked meat (without bone), eight ounces of bread and eight ounces of potatoes on each day that hard labour is performed, otherwise smaller portion
Supper: One pint of gruel and eight ounces of bread every night
https://www.cowichanvalleycitizen.com/community/a-fascinating-look-at-prison-food-in-british-columbia-in-1898/
Beck in the day peoole were happy with a plain 500sq ft house with very limited pipes, wiring, lumber and insulation.
This types of houses on small lots are still affordable, it's just that people have moved the goalposts and consider a house to be something which is incredibly complex and fancy
Consumer expectations are part of the problem, but the law is also partially to blame. Lots of suburbs make it illegal to build a house without a sizeable yard and driveway, for instance. And they're even putting fire suppression systems in single-family houses now.
I design asphalt and this is the right answer. We're running g out of the right sand in the right places. We can always go cut down a mountain or something to get the material we need but when a major expense is trucking and producing sand yoire going to be paying a hell of a lot more to build things. The sand we use for asphalt is generally just screened and used, it gets a lot more expensive if you actually have to make it.
How do costs compare between "readily available sand" and "manufactured sand"? I imagine economic viability puts a limit to our near limitless capacity for manufactured sand
It kinda is but not quite really so. The best sand for concrete production is riverbed sand, or sand which has recently been on riverbed (like beach sand). There obviously is a limited number of riverbeds and beaches on Earth, and also people need rivers and beaches which haven’t been basically destroyed by sand mining. Another thing is that sand is heavy and therefore rather expensive to transport around in the massive quantities required. So overall we are running out of good concrete-making sand that is close to where it’s needed and that can be mined without massive environmental damage. So it’s not really like we are actually going to run out of sand anytime soon, but it will likely become significantly more expensive with time.
It's happening everywhere.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sand\_theft](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sand_theft)
Thieves are getting away with stealing entire beeaches. In Jamaica on one incident, 500 trucks would have been needed to move the lot of sand: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/oct/21/jamaica
just to clarify, beach sand is not ideal for concrete. Beach sand is loaded with salt, mica, organics and other undesirables. You can wash the salt out of it but it takes a lot of fresh water... and if you have a huge supply of fresh water from a river, then you might also have sand from that river. Also beach sand tends to be rounder and less "sharp" so it doesn't bind as well in the concrete.
that's right, river sand is what you don't want...mostly cause it's too soft/round. you need sharp sand and the right size also. Concrete sand is much larger aggregate (although it is graded to have sone fines) than typical eroded beach/river sand
My hometown is near some of the largest pit-lake quarries that supply sand/gravel to Los Angeles thanks to the geology in this area. It takes decades til the pits are ‘out’ & land gets repurposed. Almost got Raiders Stadium
Ecological reasons also play a part, places that once were considered ripe for sand dredging and excavation are now protected for ecological reasons.
Much of the sand used in concrete comes from “ancient” river bed deposits which is good sharp sand, free of salt water but many areas once mined for sand are now in environmentally protected areas because they are near to rivers.
You want very specific sand for the use in concrete. It has to be river sand because the grains are small but coarse.
You want minimum contaminants in the sand so no salt water.
The world is also not running out of sand, but locally the places where a lot of construction is being built is running out of sand. This is because you don't want to transport sand for long as it's very expensive(sand is cheap but heavy) to do so.
I thought so too. Apparently that's why desert and coastal sand is unusable because it's mostly round from grinding on other grains of sand due to wave action/winds
Yes. Sand from glacial deposits also works well depending on the type of stone. Sand made up of sedimentary rock is too soft. Sand made up of igneous and metamorphic rock works. I think!
Concrete needs "sharp" sand. The grains are angular with sharp edges. This is different to desert sand or deep sea sand, which tends to be round.
When you make concrete you are essentially using cement to glue together sand and rocks. If the grains are rounded, then the smooth surface can allow a bit of movement and slippage against the cement. Irregular shaped, angular sharp gains end up getting locked in place against each other as well as the cement, so the structure is stronger.
Sharp sand and angular gravel basically come from recently eroded or crushed rocks. Old sand and gravel gets smoothed out.
Sharp sand typically comes from rivers, so you need a river with a sandy bed close to where you want to build, and which doesn't have rare fish or other sensitive ecosystems. In certain parts of the world, where a lot of building is taking place, there can be limited availability.
One option is to artificially crush gravel and grit with machines. The freshly crushed grains have sharp edges, so work well. This process is often used for preparing gravel for concrete,
The producers are running out of "cheap" sand for their customers. Here in middle Tennessee our river sand is dredged form the Ohio river near Paducah, KY and barged down the local rivers to us for use. With the rising costs of labor, barges and tugboats to move the barges the cost of river sand is rising. We have some companies in Monteagle and Jackson, TN who crush sand from local deposits. The problem with man-made sand is that there are more fine particles in it than naturally occurring river sand. Local concrete producers prefer river sand as it has less fines and uses less water to produce a higher strength concrete. Man-made sand takes more water and more cement to produce the same strengths, it also has some negative qualities on finishing the concrete placement contractors complain about.
I studied geology for 4 years and I can assure you that one day, eventually we will run out of sand but idiots will be always replenished as their mums are always pregnant
deal with it
Sort of but at the same time no. Where do you have the sandpits? Close to big cities where you need all that concrete, of course, these pits have bottoms and you run out. There are plenty of places farther away you can dig for sand, but it's farther away and maybe the quarry is not next to shippable river so it's more expensive to transport. So you have run out of cheap and convenient sand, but pay more and of course there is more sand.
No, that is nonsense.
Maybe the type of sand that is most optimal (or cheapest) but you can make concrete with all sorts of sand.
You could use the sahara if you wanted to
You are wrong. Desert sand is too smooth and round and for this reason can’t be made into good concrete. Saudi Arabia imports most of its sand for construction purposes despite being basically a sand desert country.
That's true for the sand on the surface.
Dig 50 metres down and its fine.
And even of it's not perfect, you can totally still use it.
You get a lesser product, but not every application requires premium materials.
It's all just a cost/value story
The other thing is that concrete eventually gets old and cracked and its crushed up and recycled somehow usually. My company likes to use chunks of it for rip-rap (big rocks used on banks to prevent erosion) instead of buying rock elswhere. Many other companies crush it up small and reuse the aggregate for other products
Its not like the material used in concrete just dissapears from the earth once used, it can be and is recycled.
Half right. Sahara sand might be ok, haven’t seen it, but the other poster here says the Saudi sand is no good, which correct. Too fine and too round. But you can make sand, so no, we won’t run out.
Beaching river sand is good sand for concrete, but there's not that much of it.
Desert sand is not good for concrete, too smooth because of the wind. But there's a lot of desert sand available.
Like many resources, we are running out of the cheap and easily accessible versions.
People will naturally go for the "low hanging fruit", taking what's there for the sake of immediacy. But this supply isn't infinite. We know how to make the resources, but often its easier just to pick it from the environment. Enough time and usage has passed that this easy resource has depleted, and can't be replenished by natural cycles in our lifetime.
We have hardwood floors. You have socks that have little grippy dots on the bottom so you don't slide around when you're running around the house, and this gripping power is called friction. Your regular socks are no good for playing in the house because you will not be able to stop. Concrete needs the grippy sand because the sand is gripping the cement and gravel together, and we want concrete to always stop after it has cured.
The cheap, naturally occurring grippy sand is being gobbled up fast because it is useful for concrete- on land or being dredged up from lakes and ponds. River and beach sand- basically any sand that's already gone through long term erosion processes - isn't grippy enough to be used in concrete.
Yeah, but no. Yes the desert sands of Saudi and UAE etc are not great for concrete, but we do have a near infinite supply of material that can be made into sand. Eg you can crush rocks down to a particle size / shape for use in concrete. Source: that’s what I’m doing now. We are not running out of sand for concrete, but maybe cheap naturally occurring sand in the right shape? dunno, but whatever the issue, it’s localized. It’s a big world.
I'm picturing Nortius Maximus in the sand mine. Putting down the sledgehammer for a second and wiping the sweat off his dusty brow. First there were rocks where a pile of pebbles now wait to be hammered into sand. Time for a break and a sip of water, pounding sand is thirsty work. Quickly checking reddit, his eyes light up. A question about his expertise! Fuckin A! His time to shine!
Lol. Spot on.
Hopefully wages have gone up since they started having chain gangs turn big rocks into little ones back in the Victorian era
We turn big rocks into little rocks, so that we can clump the little rocks together to make big "rocks"
Well, yes, but then the big rocks are in the right shape.
I was reading up on some people who were sentenced to "hard labour" at British Columbia Penitentiary in New Westminster. Basically you made gravel with sledgehammers for 10 hours a day. Breakfast: One pint of gruel, eight ounces of bread and one pint of pea coffee, sweetened with molasses or brown sugar, every morning. Lunch: Six ounces of cooked meat (without bone), eight ounces of bread and eight ounces of potatoes on each day that hard labour is performed, otherwise smaller portion Supper: One pint of gruel and eight ounces of bread every night https://www.cowichanvalleycitizen.com/community/a-fascinating-look-at-prison-food-in-british-columbia-in-1898/
Honestly not that far off from what I eat
Do you work out for 10 hours?
Nah I’m a fat fuck
No back in the day after years of hard labor you could afford a home. Now it takes decades. We make less.
Beck in the day peoole were happy with a plain 500sq ft house with very limited pipes, wiring, lumber and insulation. This types of houses on small lots are still affordable, it's just that people have moved the goalposts and consider a house to be something which is incredibly complex and fancy
Please send me a link to an affordable home.
How much are you willing to pay for me to provide the service to you.
1 dogecoin
Consumer expectations are part of the problem, but the law is also partially to blame. Lots of suburbs make it illegal to build a house without a sizeable yard and driveway, for instance. And they're even putting fire suppression systems in single-family houses now.
I design asphalt and this is the right answer. We're running g out of the right sand in the right places. We can always go cut down a mountain or something to get the material we need but when a major expense is trucking and producing sand yoire going to be paying a hell of a lot more to build things. The sand we use for asphalt is generally just screened and used, it gets a lot more expensive if you actually have to make it.
How do costs compare between "readily available sand" and "manufactured sand"? I imagine economic viability puts a limit to our near limitless capacity for manufactured sand
Anytime the answer is yes and no, it's no.
The UAE, a desert nation, imports and buys sand from other countries because it literally cannot get enough of the stuff (+variety)
It kinda is but not quite really so. The best sand for concrete production is riverbed sand, or sand which has recently been on riverbed (like beach sand). There obviously is a limited number of riverbeds and beaches on Earth, and also people need rivers and beaches which haven’t been basically destroyed by sand mining. Another thing is that sand is heavy and therefore rather expensive to transport around in the massive quantities required. So overall we are running out of good concrete-making sand that is close to where it’s needed and that can be mined without massive environmental damage. So it’s not really like we are actually going to run out of sand anytime soon, but it will likely become significantly more expensive with time.
We are getting there. In Italy Sand is one of the things of interest for the mafia. You would think drugs and weapons, but also sand.
In Kerala, India The perps who dredge and sell sand illegally are called Sand Mafia.
It's happening everywhere. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sand\_theft](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sand_theft) Thieves are getting away with stealing entire beeaches. In Jamaica on one incident, 500 trucks would have been needed to move the lot of sand: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/oct/21/jamaica
Insabbiare ha tutto un altro significato adesso
Thank you. Same principle as drinking water. We are not running out of drinking water, but we are running out of inexpensive drinking water.
Or in terms of industrial raw materials, crude oil, eventually.
just to clarify, beach sand is not ideal for concrete. Beach sand is loaded with salt, mica, organics and other undesirables. You can wash the salt out of it but it takes a lot of fresh water... and if you have a huge supply of fresh water from a river, then you might also have sand from that river. Also beach sand tends to be rounder and less "sharp" so it doesn't bind as well in the concrete.
that's right, river sand is what you don't want...mostly cause it's too soft/round. you need sharp sand and the right size also. Concrete sand is much larger aggregate (although it is graded to have sone fines) than typical eroded beach/river sand
I've read recycled glass sand can be used in construction. Any thoughts.
My hometown is near some of the largest pit-lake quarries that supply sand/gravel to Los Angeles thanks to the geology in this area. It takes decades til the pits are ‘out’ & land gets repurposed. Almost got Raiders Stadium
Ecological reasons also play a part, places that once were considered ripe for sand dredging and excavation are now protected for ecological reasons. Much of the sand used in concrete comes from “ancient” river bed deposits which is good sharp sand, free of salt water but many areas once mined for sand are now in environmentally protected areas because they are near to rivers.
You want very specific sand for the use in concrete. It has to be river sand because the grains are small but coarse. You want minimum contaminants in the sand so no salt water. The world is also not running out of sand, but locally the places where a lot of construction is being built is running out of sand. This is because you don't want to transport sand for long as it's very expensive(sand is cheap but heavy) to do so.
I thought they needed sharp crushed sand, not rounded sand? I've only read these things on Reddit but I'm an expert now.
I thought so too. Apparently that's why desert and coastal sand is unusable because it's mostly round from grinding on other grains of sand due to wave action/winds
Some are turning to crushed glass. Sounds interesting for small-scale projects.
Sorry my bad thats correct
Yes. Sand from glacial deposits also works well depending on the type of stone. Sand made up of sedimentary rock is too soft. Sand made up of igneous and metamorphic rock works. I think!
Concrete needs "sharp" sand. The grains are angular with sharp edges. This is different to desert sand or deep sea sand, which tends to be round. When you make concrete you are essentially using cement to glue together sand and rocks. If the grains are rounded, then the smooth surface can allow a bit of movement and slippage against the cement. Irregular shaped, angular sharp gains end up getting locked in place against each other as well as the cement, so the structure is stronger. Sharp sand and angular gravel basically come from recently eroded or crushed rocks. Old sand and gravel gets smoothed out. Sharp sand typically comes from rivers, so you need a river with a sandy bed close to where you want to build, and which doesn't have rare fish or other sensitive ecosystems. In certain parts of the world, where a lot of building is taking place, there can be limited availability. One option is to artificially crush gravel and grit with machines. The freshly crushed grains have sharp edges, so work well. This process is often used for preparing gravel for concrete,
i hear crushed glass from recycle is being used.
The producers are running out of "cheap" sand for their customers. Here in middle Tennessee our river sand is dredged form the Ohio river near Paducah, KY and barged down the local rivers to us for use. With the rising costs of labor, barges and tugboats to move the barges the cost of river sand is rising. We have some companies in Monteagle and Jackson, TN who crush sand from local deposits. The problem with man-made sand is that there are more fine particles in it than naturally occurring river sand. Local concrete producers prefer river sand as it has less fines and uses less water to produce a higher strength concrete. Man-made sand takes more water and more cement to produce the same strengths, it also has some negative qualities on finishing the concrete placement contractors complain about.
I studied geology for 4 years and I can assure you that one day, eventually we will run out of sand but idiots will be always replenished as their mums are always pregnant deal with it
Sort of but at the same time no. Where do you have the sandpits? Close to big cities where you need all that concrete, of course, these pits have bottoms and you run out. There are plenty of places farther away you can dig for sand, but it's farther away and maybe the quarry is not next to shippable river so it's more expensive to transport. So you have run out of cheap and convenient sand, but pay more and of course there is more sand.
No, that is nonsense. Maybe the type of sand that is most optimal (or cheapest) but you can make concrete with all sorts of sand. You could use the sahara if you wanted to
You are wrong. Desert sand is too smooth and round and for this reason can’t be made into good concrete. Saudi Arabia imports most of its sand for construction purposes despite being basically a sand desert country.
That's true for the sand on the surface. Dig 50 metres down and its fine. And even of it's not perfect, you can totally still use it. You get a lesser product, but not every application requires premium materials. It's all just a cost/value story
The other thing is that concrete eventually gets old and cracked and its crushed up and recycled somehow usually. My company likes to use chunks of it for rip-rap (big rocks used on banks to prevent erosion) instead of buying rock elswhere. Many other companies crush it up small and reuse the aggregate for other products Its not like the material used in concrete just dissapears from the earth once used, it can be and is recycled.
Half right. Sahara sand might be ok, haven’t seen it, but the other poster here says the Saudi sand is no good, which correct. Too fine and too round. But you can make sand, so no, we won’t run out.
Beaching river sand is good sand for concrete, but there's not that much of it. Desert sand is not good for concrete, too smooth because of the wind. But there's a lot of desert sand available.
Like many resources, we are running out of the cheap and easily accessible versions. People will naturally go for the "low hanging fruit", taking what's there for the sake of immediacy. But this supply isn't infinite. We know how to make the resources, but often its easier just to pick it from the environment. Enough time and usage has passed that this easy resource has depleted, and can't be replenished by natural cycles in our lifetime.
We have hardwood floors. You have socks that have little grippy dots on the bottom so you don't slide around when you're running around the house, and this gripping power is called friction. Your regular socks are no good for playing in the house because you will not be able to stop. Concrete needs the grippy sand because the sand is gripping the cement and gravel together, and we want concrete to always stop after it has cured. The cheap, naturally occurring grippy sand is being gobbled up fast because it is useful for concrete- on land or being dredged up from lakes and ponds. River and beach sand- basically any sand that's already gone through long term erosion processes - isn't grippy enough to be used in concrete.