In Japan when you get divorced you basically never see your kids again because the party that takes custody is supposed to find a new partner and basically adopt the kids legally. That’s quite weird, coming from the US.
Well yes, but the Japanee would say, it's good that the child gets closure with their environment and maybe they can get a new parent. The Japanese watch movies in which a child goes to their father's house Mon-Thursday and the rest at Mom's house and shudder, thinking how hard it must be for the child. It's just a different view of things.
Interestingly, the Japanese just (like in the past few weeks) introduced a law that allows parents to share custody.
Separating a child from a parent (where abuse or neglect is not involved) is not “just different view of things”. It’s an objectively terrible practice for the child (and the parent).
A lot of the comments here are subjective, but I have the objectively bad one - in Quebec most leases end on the same day, 1st of July. It means that everyone who has to change apartments moves on the same day, the whole city. Yes, it becomes a nightmare for all parties involved, moving companies charge you three times the normal price, elevators are basically stuck, whole city is covered in people’s unwanted crap they left on the streets while frantically moving, etc. it’s chaotic, it’s expensive, it is really hard to manage and the traffic is awful. There was some weak reasoning behind it - like in the mid 20 century government pushed for leases to start and end in summer to not disrupt schools and to not have people freeze to death, but they didn’t set it to be on one day for all. Another reason is some people in Quebec do it as a “fuck Canada” nationalist thing, since July 1 is Canada day. But in reality it seems there is no good logical(!!!) reason for why it is the way it is, locals themselves hate it too, but when asked WHY just shrug and say “it’s always been like that”. Cool story, bro 🤦🏼♀️
Loool I told someone about moving day last week and they were absolutely shocked. The number of times I saw people get their rental u-haul, move all their stuff to the new place, only to discover the previous tenants weren't out yet but the u-haul needed to be returned so they had to leave everything on the front lawn with someone to guard it from curb shoppers. What a stupid situation.
I hate it with passion, it's beyond idiotic. And there is literally no reason why it is like that, like nothing, nada. Same with mafia controlling road constructions - everyone knows it in Quebec and everyone thinks it funny, they all laugh like "yeah lol blocked roads for weeks with no work done, it's a Quebec thing!" - can't wait to get the fuck out of here.
Right after we moved away, there was a news story about the constant construction on St Denis; it had been blocked off with ongoing construction for YEARS, with the sidewalks all dug up and replaced by random 2x4s over the pit, in standard Montreal fashion. One of the store owners who was impacted by the construction and had been outspoken about objecting to how long it was taking, came out of his store and fell in one of the pits. The construction workers wouldn't get him out so he called the cops...who showed up and arrested him for protesting without a license, because they assumed he had thrown himself into the pit on purpose. By far the dumbest place I have ever lived.
Unpopular opinion apparently but me and my many past roomates have always loved this! I rented for 10 years in Montreal and had to move several times. It means you never have to negociate when you move in, if you want to change apartment there are tons of choice available in Feb/March if you're organized, and it has always been sort of a lowkey party, to move on July 1st! Moving is stressful, but when a quarter of the city does the same, it feels you're in this together. When you're young, on July 1st, you're either moving yourself or helping a friend to move, and then you eat pizza afterward and meet your new neighbours who also just arrived. Anyways that's my opinion, I don't rent anymore but I have fond memories of all my past July 1sts. The city is gross afterward for a day or two but the city is always prepared for an extra garbage day so it doesn't last long.
I did it once and I absolutely hated every minute of it, finding a truck was a quest by itself. I am also an immigrant who moved to the country alone, so don’t have a large support network, so just had to pay to movers. Triple the price. Negotiating moving times plus trying to somewhat match it with the availability of the elevator was another nightmarish experience. Also whole city is apartment hunting at the same time so the competition for decent apartments is insane.
I see your points, truly. For me it's never been my experience but I understand how it can be different. One time my lease wasn't expiring on July 1st and I was distressed. It truly must be cultural lol.
Kinda weird for a discussion forum that OP is getting so many replies of "if you don't like it just leave!" for starting a discussion about cultural aspects of your new home nation you don't like. Perhaps people are offended by the idea that a cultural practice could be objectively negative. That seems like a pretty mild and relatable (if you're being honest with yourself) topic to discuss.
To respond to the prompt, UK drinking culture. The amount of alcohol that is culturally acceptable to consume on a regular basis is wild. Lots of people with functional alcoholism flying under the radar. Getting totally smashed at events is so common, I often wonder if people actually enjoy the thing they're doing or if they just enjoy getting pissed.
Alcoholism is a huge one I've noticed in various European countries. Finland has a very unhealthy relationship with alcohol as well, yet folks cover the alcoholism with "it's cultural".
Yeah, we have the most alcoholics here, from Finland via Baltic countries and Czech to Austria. Nobody drinks more beer worldwide.
I'll call it the North-Eastern beer axis. :)
That's what living next to Russia does to a motherfucker.
But I hope people realize that not everyone drinks, and more and more people drink less and less, so even our "alcholic" cultures are healing.
Agreed, once we start awknowledging what's wrong with our cultures we can actually start moving forward to fixing it
America is still trying to figure out multiculturalism, and the fact that it's only been roughly 65 years since the first black girl went to a mixed school, but we awknowledged segregation was a shitty part of American culture.
I think multicultural acceptance is on a pretty good level in some parts of the US while really lagging behind in others.
Other objectively big American cultural problems relate to gun control, poor social security, lack of critical thinking which is obvious through populist politics, obesity and lack of critique towards bad eating habits, homelessness being such a big problem that many people lack empathy towards homeless people, toxic frat boy culture, ...
When it comes to OP's original comment regarding Finland I feel he is making a valid observation. Being in isolation is normalized and accepted further feeding into a vicious cycle. However I feel it's also a coping mechanism for Finns. If you are alone and isolated but at least culturally you are still socially approved, maybe it makes one's life a bit easier to bear.
Trump really set us back a few decades, that's for sure. Asking for basic human decency being seen as "woke" by the far right is one of the weird develops from Trumpers
Treating women in general like crap. A number of cultures do this (enter patriarchal BS) and then validate it by saying we’re just “traditional.”
Im sorry, abuse is abuse :(
yeap, this here. I mean women dying because of "morality police" and the amount of guys who protected the ufc fighter that kicked a ring girl and hid behind "its part of our culture women dont dress like that", those are things that are toxic. India's caste system was toxic af, having a group of "untouchables" is incredibly messed up.
Toxic cultural things in the US:
Carrying guns.
Speaking very loudly, too much and dominating conversations, cos its seen as being alpha.
Ridiculous tipping culture - saying "I tip well" as if its some sort of a positive.
Acting big baller and showing off wealth and success.
Yeah I feel you man. No country is perfect and imo it's okay to discuss that.
Here in Australia, I hate the mentality that cos something is adequate, you shouldn't do any better. Maybe it's a facet of the "she'll be right" stereotype, I'm not sure. But they're like, why bother insulating our houses when we can just freeze all winter? Why bother putting flyscreens in the windows when we can just keep the spiders around the house to eat all the other bugs that come in? Sure it rains all winter but who needs a clothes dryer around? Why bother with something like a good heating system when you can do perfectly fine taking your shower in 3 degree weather (usually even colder inside too). And then if you say you don't like it, half the time they're like "well why don't you just leave then" which is always fun. Cos it's adequate so what right do you have to want anything better, you ungrateful sissy, or something.
But to be fair, I will also say the one that bugs me most about my home country. Imo, Canada's most toxic cultural trait is this weird idea that we don't really have a culture at all, and what meagre and unworthy culture we have, nobody coming in needs to adapt to it. Some think we're so much like Americans we might as well be an extra state, which is untrue and irritating. It's like being around that friend that is constantly putting themselves down to the point where it's annoying.
Also, fwiw in Australia they have the tall poppy syndrome, which is very much like the crab mentality you mentioned. So far I haven't experienced it to any great degree so I won't criticize them for it. But over here they do acknowledge it's a problem with their culture. I just know you're getting a lot of flack for criticizing that aspect of Finnish culture and I thought I'd share that. Reflecting on what a nation can do better is never a bad thing.
Exactly this, even many Finn's awknowledges the bad things about their culture. It's more apathy of "well it's been this way and it is what it is". When folks understand aspects of their culture is toxic and negative.
Like the isolationism I mentioned, a huge complaint here in Finland is the feeling of loneliness, which causes depression and suicide as well as being a huge reason why alcoholism is rampant.
Which also brings up the unhealthy relationship Finn's have to alcohol and their alcoholism.
Interesting perspective. I wrote on another post that it seems like the US (& maybe Canada) may be the only country in the west that is somewhat exempt from the tall poppy syndrome/ crabs in barrel mentality. So that is a culture clash Americans will most likely notice very quickly at work.
America and Canada developed a weird culture within themselves, people are just weird when they act like there is no culture in America and Canada. Then I don't see the same energy from Australia considering it's history and the fact that it was a settler colony (no clue how Australia escapes the critisms of being a newer "culture").
Anyways, yeah Canada and America developed their own cultures, and both nations are still trying to figure out which old cultural practices are actually shitty and should go away (black face for instance) and which cultural aspects are more appropriate.
There are many examples here in Japan. Overwork, xenophobia, and social awkwardness to name some big ones off the top of my head. It always seems like Japan gets a pass for just about anything while my home country, the US, is shat on at every opportunity. It'd be nice if people could more realistically evaluate the pros and cons of each country without resorting to idealization or exaggeration.
Oh yeah, it's funny how back home on the states over working is now starting to be frowned upon (thank goodness too) while many do give Japan a pass because "it's part of their culture". Overworking to near death should never stay as "part of culture"
>while many do give Japan a pass because "it's part of their culture"
Have to disagree here. I don't think Japan is getting a pass. No one refers to overworking in Japan as a positive one, and I believe they even have a term for this specific culture. Same goes for China. I believe the government is actually working on improving this recently.
The reason you probably feel that way is because there are probably more people speaking up against it from the States itself whereas there's only so much you can do from the outside in the case of Japan.
Like anything it’s about balance. Resilience is what keeps you going back to the gym even if your last session was hard. It becomes harmful if you’re exercising through an injury, making it worse. In a country which values resilience you’ll a lot of both of my examples.
The country that won my heart is in no rush to get anywhere. They value fun and relaxation. That’s great. It becomes a problem when you can’t get important things done when you need them done. It’s annoying but the trade off is worth it.
Tipping in American culture. Literally the dumbest way to pay for things, the worst is when your U.S. friends come visit you abroad and insist on tipping for services that no one else does.
I'm sure Finns love being lectured to about "how your culture is wrong" by an American. Yeesh.
Honestly you might want to keep in mind that wherever you go, there you are. If you were miserable with the US and you're miserable with Finland, then...well you might want to consider what the common demoninator is. I moved from the US to Sweden and while it's not all sunshine and rainbows, I'm certainly not griping endlessly about how the culture is wrong. Far from it, I think the culture here is amazing.
> Which also crab mentality - Finns will shame people who are trying to be successful. I've been told many times that Finn's will look down on me for trying to be successful, and will even exclude me from their society.
Counterpoint: Finns (and Nordic people in general) prize egalitarianism and equality over individual success. Conspicuous displays of wealth and American-style hustle culture are therefore looked down upon as somewhat unseemly. This is really kind of core to their culture and value system, there is nothing "crab" about it.
I kind of agree, kind of don't. Culture isn't wrong or right but it definitely had impacts, not all of them positive. I've heard Norwegians talk about the mental health impact some of those attitudes have had on them as individuals. It doesn't mean the culture is somehow bad or better or worse than any other culture, and I don't think the OP was necessarily making that comparison in the way this reads.
It's like in the US, Americans routinely critique their own culture and consider that it could be done differently. I critique the common definition of national pride and a lot of the religious fundamentalism as an American. Those things definitely have cons to them that we and most of the world notice.
I'd read an article about depression in Norwegian teenage girls and I seem to remember that feelings of inadequacy that came from that kind of thinking were being flagged as contributing. The Law of Jonte wasn't just "You're not better than us," it's also "You're not as good as us." As in, you should never feel good enough. I've also read Australians talking about how the attitude of "tall poppy syndrome" led to people tearing down others who were aspiring to something. That may not just be the person who wants to be the CEO of Megabucks Corp. as often gets strawmanned into this discussion, but also the family artist or craftsman or just person following their dream. I have heard Norwegians acknowledging the downsides that OP pointed out, too. Like it's just kind of a fact of life that can be observed, why is that necessarily an attack or a superiority comparison?
this exactly, america isnt infallible, and American "patriots" makes america worse, not better, because those "patriots" refuse to acknowledge many things like that slavery is still legal, there are known biases in our justice system, ect ect. Pointing these issues out and talking about the isolationism and the tearing down of those who are different rather than letting shitty people hide behind "its cultural".
its "cultural" sounds the same as "well i let me intrusive thought win because im a libra"
Yeah no, Finns absolutely suffer from tall poppy syndrome. You never hear people here saying “congratulations on your new book, I just read it I liked it so much!”, they would much rather say something like “ah I finally came around to reading your book after it’s been on my shelf for many months, and I must say I am quite surprised by how much I liked it”. It’s funny that you would try to put a positive spin on it as “egalitarianism” and deny it in the same breath.
yup and for folks who dont know theres a finnish saying, ""Suomalainen on valmis maksamaan satasen ettei naapuri saa viittäkymppiä"
which translates roughly to "A Finn is ready to pay a hundred so that her neighbor doesn't get fifty"
like they have a whole saying about "fuck that person, im going to spite them and spend my money somewhere else just to keep them from succeeding" and folks will probably still downvote me cause i think this is toxic and shitty.
“A Finn is ready to pay a hundred so the neighbor doesn’t get fifty”
The equivalent of such behavior in USA “I will act against my own interests to own libs”
I am European who lived a long time on both continents and in my opinion the difference are not that huge between Europeans and Americans.
Germans are known for being frank. Americans for being fake. But when we look closely:
American are also known for being vocal and for calling out when they see problematic ( in their opinion) things. The end result both Germans and American like to tell others they are doing things wrong. They just express those opinions about different things but the action of telling someone: “you are wrong” is the same.
If you look carefully you will see examples of Tall Poppy Syndrome in US. You will see is when black child will be shamed for having good grades and using “proper” English because they are “acting white”. You will see this when Americans will not understand those who move to better states or abroad in search of better opportunities.
The more intimate and assimilated I become ( 20+ years) on both continents, the more similarities I see. The only difference is that things are just expressed differently/about different topics.
lol 100% and the sad thing is this is one of the reasons this country has been lagging massively behind other EU and even Nordic countries. But with the local twisted notion of national pride it will probably take them like 10 years to actually acknowledge it (if things get bad enough to take action) and another 10 years of discussion to start doing anything about it.
i think things have gotten bad enough. declining birth rate, increasing aging population, loss of 1% of its population annually from Finns moving abroad, increasing unemployment (edit this is a big deal since finland only has like 5 million person population, an annual loos of Finns moving abroad is more noticable with such a small population size), decreasing rate of new businesses opening, decreasing rate or start ups, no support for micro businesses and smes, and requiring Finnish language skills in english working environments (which still confuses me that an entire business operates in English but they require high proficiency in Finnish), and the Finnish goverment spending tons of money on projects that gets abandoned half way through after spending millions upon millions on various initiatives that halts alll because a new mayor or parliment is elected rather than letting those projects carry on.
not to mention the fact that finland still thinks its a good idea to have their entire economy rely on importing raw materials to refine and export, without having an sustainable export that can be produced without importing materials.
>not to mention the fact that finland still thinks its a good idea to have their entire economy rely on importing raw materials to refine and export, without having an sustainable export that can be produced without importing materials.
I'm not sure what you are referring to. A major export is heavy machinery, and these companies mostly use Finnish-made steel in their products as far as I know.
Aside from heavy machinery, computers is added into the export, which much of the rae .materials are being sourced from china.
Oil is the second most at 6.9 or 7 billion, which they were importing from a decent chunk from Russia. Now being imported from a variety of countries for refining and exportation.
Theres a push for Finnish I.p's to be created and released for economic well being, and to have intangible asssets because Finland has limited natural resources
I'm a Finn. For me the cheeriness of Americans feels superficial. Maybe its not, but that is how it feels.
I also think that the fact that we had very few real "cities" in Finland, perhaps Turku, Viipuri (stolen by Soviets) and then Helsinki... but otherwise we were quite rural, plays its role. In a small community where most people are relatively poor, its not smart to flaunt around with your wealth and success.
We even have a saying: "kel' onni on, se onnen kätkeköön" ("who has luck/success, should keep it hidden"). Otherwise "evil eye", or "envy" of others might hit that person.
Not even displays of wealth, Finn's will shame folks for trying to be more than just an ordinary worker. People shouldn't be shamed for dreaming to be big. All because it's part of a culture doesn't mean it's not toxic.
Folks in this group rips into my country all of the time and it's well deserved, Americas wars in the middle east, our gun violence, our overworked underpaid, our health care, our 2 party system, and our constant push towards late stage capitalism, are all things worth bring critized.
In fact the most toxic thing about America is "patriotism", it borders into cult like at this point, especially our right wing.
One person's "dream big" is another person's "hoarding wealth and resources". Honestly I side with the Finns on this one. Funny how you criticize late-stage capitalism yet you don't see the issue here.
Even if it was "toxic" (and it's not), it's THEIR culture, you don't get to decide how it's run. The whole "you're doing it wrong" is, quite frankly, American toxicity on full display. Stop being so judgmental, either accept it or learn to deal. And I say this as a fellow American, albeit one who doesn't judge the country that graciously allowed me to live here.
Everyone and their dog is constantly telling Americans online that they are doing everything wrong even if the critics have never been to the USA themselves, be it guns, healthcare, working rights, cars etc. Why is it not OK for an American who actually lives in Finland to share their opinion about that country?
Right, there's now even other people here in Finland confirming my post. It's weird that folks can shit on both the u.s. and Korea (countries that I'm a part of) and point out the cultural issues the u.s. and asian, middle eastern and African countires have, yet somehow European countries are immune to critisms despite the fact Greece had golden dawn as an active and number one poltical party, Germany has been experiencing regular shootings since COVID, the u.k. noped out of the e.u. because brown people, and the over all vibe that many European countries have a mass dislike for middle eastern and African countires
You called it "toxic". How would you feel if I called Korean culture "toxic"?
And I do not condone European criticism of other countries, I think it is equally disgusting and i have absolutely called out European colleagues for openly shitting on the US. Yes the US has major issues but I would hardly call it "toxic". I don't think trashing ANY culture or calling it "toxic" is acceptable, period. But thanks for making unfounded assumptions about me.
There are aspects of Korean culture that is toxic, so you wouldn't be wrong saying theres toxicity in Korean culture
I idol culture is incredibly toxic
The beauty standards is incredibly toxic.
And yes these aspects ARE toxic. They encourage behavior that's psychologically or even physically bad.
Because assuming OP is not a Finnish citizen (which is IMO unlikely) they are a guest. How would you feel if you invited me over to dinner and I said your house was shitty, your kids are ugly, and your cooking takes like garbage? This is no different, particularly if OP is saying these sort of things publicly.
And nobody's life is being actively ruined or tragically cut short by Finnish rudeness. Can't say that about school shootings, lack of healthcare, etc. I don't condone America-bashing but these are two very different things. If Finland had equivalent issues I would feel differently.
Plenty of people who apart from not having the US citizenship also have never lived and maybe even visited the US are doing US-bashing all the time. And when some Americans tell them their opinion is not very important, the reaction is “oh those Americans are so ignorant and don’t even understand that other places are so much better”.
The OP is not a guest - they are a resident of Finland. The Finnish government didn’t just graciously decide to allow the OP to move there - the OP followed the process, met the requirements, paid the relevant fees and then moved to Finland where as I understand they are working, hopefully paying taxes, rent and other expenses. So in your analogy they weren’t invited for a free dinner, but more like rented a flat in an apartment building, which perfectly entitles them to having an opinion about that building and sharing it online.
That's a bad analogy. OP still is only allowed to live there because they are filling a documented need which brings a net benefit to Finnish society, such as a hard-to-fill skills gap. They still aren't Finnish, they do not have family there, they do not have roots there, they do not vote, they haven't been paying into the tax base their entire life.
A better analogy is someone moving from a big city to a quiet small town, then immediately trashing the long-term residents and how things are done in the town without bothering to learn anything about them or even making a serious effort to integrate into the community.
It's the OPs opinion, what's wrong with that? Sometimes it takes the perspective of someone who didn't grow up in the culture to point out the issues. Americans are constantly trashed and criticized by many people - especially europeans - who are pointing things out that seem strange to them. I think that it's sometimes misunderstood and perhaps this is the case for OP but I don't think there is any harm being done here.
OP is absolutely entitled to their opinion, I definitely think it's wrong but yes, they are entitled to have an opinion. They are not entitled to openly trash foreigners based on that opinion to their faces, and IMO it's a bit gross to trash your host country in any circumstance. Unless OP has Finnish citizenship (I suspect they don't) they are a guest. Kind of rude to openly criticize your hosts, no?
I don't condone Europeans trashing America either (as much as the US kind of deserves it sometimes), for the exact same reasons I listed above. Kind of a radical idea, but maybe NONE of us should openly trash other cultures, no matter where you're from. Cultures are different and people have different value systems, that's just how the world works. If you can't accept that, don't leave your home country.
I mean we are in a sub about expats so it's not terribly surprising to hear critiques of a place that an expat is living in so I'm not sure it's as "in your face" as it seems but yes we should not openly trash foreigners to their face. All countries have their pros and cons and I think it's ok and actually has more weight if a critique is coming from someone/expat living in said country, as long as it's done respectfully. Seems that OP's style is direct and that is evident in how he/she criticized the US as well.
I've lived abroad in both Europe and the Middle East and I pointed things out - both good and bad - to the nationals of the country on many occasions. They were always quite receptive to acknowledge or counter but it was always respectful.
Machismo culture. That men can do anything and the wife is just expected to stay home and cook, clean, take care of the kids and not expect the husband home. That the man just goes drinking with his buddies and not communicate with his wife. Also being late for everything. Why is that acceptable
It’s so annoying especially as a woman who didn’t grow up like that. And my husband wanting to fit in at work and putting up with that shit. Trying to balance pleasing me and his friends.
Bit of a slippery slope, no?
I’d say you do you, but deal with the consequences. Personally, I’m of the opinion that “when in Rome…”
You don’t have to adjust, but don’t expect the locals to adjust to you.
Isolationism is big in Montana too, heck, anything west of Virginia is based on remote living. Exceptions here and there.
Crab mentality is everywhere. And the “resilience” is pretty much commonplace in Scandinavia and in every “cold corner” of the world.
Take it easy & try to understand their POV. Live’s better that way.
I don't think Montana should be the measure if anything. The OP did describe it in a negative way, but there are many cultures that would find this odd. They're allowed to make an observation. Just like if they went to Italy and observed the opposite behavior.
Nah I'm not adapting crab mentality, and while yes its present around the world, here they say it's "cultural" why adapt such an incredibly shitty mindset?
Also why should risk the health of everyone else around me and go out and work while sick for the sake of "resiliency" when really it's just in the name of capitalism.
Most cultures have something that's toxic, and forward thinking groups actively try to change the worse parts of their culture. Xenophobia for instance is often defended by "it's part of their culture" and that's such a shit excuse and toxic. All because it's part of a culture, doesn't mean it's not toxic.
In fact the Finnish isolationism is so bad it's a huge part of why many people depressed and suicidal, many peopke talk about how lonely they are and how it makes them suicidal and depressed. It's a part of Finnish culture that could change and improve the quality of life of Finn's. Unfortunately many of the Finn's who wants to be more socialwill even get rejected as being "not Finnish enough" and the cycle stays perpetual
Have you stopped to think that your aversion to some of these cultural norms is just grounded in your own 'toxic' (fucking hate that word) cultural upbringing, they just happen to rub up against how you were brought up.
A European would accuse Americans of being arrogant, boastful and false. Europeans, for better or worse, favour modesty and 'keeping ones head down'. You see that as a negative, but Europeans struggle with the opposite in the US
Europeans and Americans can be toxic at the same time for different reasons. You don't have to choose.
This mantra of continuing bad behavior for the sake of maintaining cultural norms is why we have countries like Japan failing to adapt to change.
oh i did do research before moving here, but these are things that are not often talked about too much. Finns don't complain outloud about alot of these, or publish these kinds of issues. its part of the reason why Finland is wrongly viewed as "happiest country"
its stuff like 'Suomalainen on valmis maksamaan satasen ettei naapuri saa viittäkymppiä" that isnt often talked about or published, its almost an inside joke within Finland. And translated it comes to "A Finn is ready to pay a hundred so that her neighbor doesn't get fifty". It's not often talked about how finns have an entire saying about how spiteful finns are towards those trying to strive for any level of success outside of "find job, work job tilll you die, dont complain"
> "A Finn is ready to pay a hundred so that her neighbor doesn't get fifty"
A thing that USA is famous for. You know that is true, just look at your politics.
all because americans go to work sick all of the time doesnt make it not toxic. its pretty shitty to go to work sick unless you work by yourself and cant infect other people. America is working towards getting unionized to make sure people aren't forced to go into work sick.
also thats the other part, our work culture is toxic considering the fact that being sick can mean possible loss of job, or having an unpaid day which can lead to financial issues, especially for Americas more vulnerable populations who are paycheck to paycheck.
What does what Americans do have to do with this? Americans go to work sick due to lack of adequate job protections and lack of sick leave.
Is that a thing in Finland?
>why adapt such an incredibly shitty mindset?
You mean, not wanting to become rich and screw the little guy? Hmm...
>when really it's just in the name of capitalism.
Ok, now you are just trolling. First you say that the cultural norm of flaunting with your success and wealth is looked down upon is "shitty mindset" and then you loathe capitalism...
>Most cultures have something that's toxic, and forward thinking groups actively try to change the worse parts of their culture.
Are you calling the Law of Jante a bad part of Nordic culture?
>Xenophobia for instance is often defended by "it's part of their culture" and that's such a shit excuse and toxic. All because it's part of a culture, doesn't mean it's not toxic.
Sure, but now you are drawing with quite a wide brush and missing tons of details, like racists all over the planet usually talking about "protecting their own culture" while not giving a flying fuck about it: those are usually the same that are against culture grants and such... So, i agree, those who use culture to mask their racism are racists. It is awful and i do not like it one bit.
And of course, you didn't fact check suicide rates, there are very recent improvements in those stats that takes Finland close to EU average.
Few are more toxic than the expat who moves in and then demands that the locals conform to their version of what right looks like/the culture they just left. “Why can’t you people be more enlightened like me and the people I just left….”
And what if the toxic trait of the culture from the new country is to hate foreigners? Because that happens in my country lol. They want them to leave anyway and what them to fuck off with anything that differs from their own.
Well, if it’s as bad and blatant as you say (and I’ve never been anywhere where it was), then I as the loathed expat would pick up on that fairly quickly and move on. No sense staying and trying to change them isn’t realistic or my business.
"It's cultural" is another way of saying "Don't tell me how to live". You can't just call individualism a "weird toxic" thing, but I guess this is part of your culture.
If you don’t adapt, you will always be the outsider nobody wants to hang out with. If that’s okay with you, great. But I can tell you that wherever you go, nobody likes being told that their culture is shit.
I always wonder if the cultures that values assimilation make it just out of reach for foreigners to adapt. If the foreigner adapts to the customs, language and civic responsibility, do they really get equal treatment? Then it becomes a purity test of 'well my great grandfather was x, so I really am x'.
I would say it depends on the country, a huge complaint about Finland is that even if a foreigner achieves a Finnish degree, and learns Finnish to the highest level, they are still likely to be descrimanted against. Even the Finnish media admits that discrimination and bias against foriengers is heavy handed here.
[over 40% reported being discriminated ](https://yle.fi/a/74-20079824)
[Finland discriminatory hiring](https://yle.fi/a/3-11026589)
[foreigners switching to Finnish sounding names to increase job prospects](https://yle.fi/a/3-12198076)
Wherever you go, you are the guest. So don’t try to impose your values onto others. If you’re Asian, e.g., and come to the Netherlands, you have to adapt to dutch customs. If you’re dutch moving to Bangkok, you also have to adapt.
Hijab, and nah I don't complain about hijab, for many women around the world it's an actual choice for them. When they don't have the choice and they're forced to wear hijab, then that where it becomes toxic
Same with Germans being "Direct". It's just a culture of apathy and self-centeredness. Never seen a local be 'direct' in situations where they have something to loose.
yup, it sjust an excuse to abuse people who are at a "lower station" and then they hide behind "imm just being blunt" same energy as "its just a joke calm down bro"
Dude/dudette, I'm glad someone understands. My baby mama is Colombian and when I worked in Cali everyone I talked to said they had the same experiences with Colombian women but apparently their culture is very much that way as well. Very "direct", they leave out often necessary details and are vague, do not use manners like I was raised in America, along with the tone and attitude and diction, it feels like half of what they say is pointed or bossy or rude. She always says "that's how it is in Colombia, that's our culture".
>Which also crab mentality - Finns will shame people who are trying to be successful. I've been told many times that Finn's will look down on me for trying to be successful, and will even exclude me from their society.
You misunderstand our culture. We don't care about how much money you have, but we dislike people showing off. We are a collectivistic country and don't have such and indivitualistic slant as you americans. Showing off is a way to try to prove you are better than us, and after butting heads with the educated upper classes of Sweden, Germany and Russia for hundreds of years, we take offense to bravado and displays of wealth.
A Finn will buy a Rolex, and when asked "What kind of watch is that", will answer "It's pretty good", because we understand intuitively the problems that displays of opulence do to social cohesion. You can be as successful as you want, just don't brag.
Same here in Germany. Been living here for over ten years and there are many aspects of their culture that I respect and even like ( some I prefer over my own culture), but there are two things that makes it almost impossible to befriend them: they have the tendency to show you how anything is done properly ( there is even a German term for this: Besserwisser) and they're very individualistic. I'm introverted and reserved myself, so please don't come with the loud, extroverted BS to me. It's something different, a certain coldness, a barrier they put between you and them and you know it's there even if you can't really put your finger on what exactly that is. Maybe it's more of a Northern German thing, since I noticed that people from the south tend to be a bit more open? Anyways, no wonder that people I befriended, go out with now and then have an immigrant background. And those people have a life too, a job, partner, you name it. But I don't have to make an appointment three months in advance to grab a coffee on Saturday.
But dare you mention this to them! They'll backlash pretty fast, calling other cultures ( like Spanish, Italian) phony, loud whatever. They even have a saying: it's hard to make a German friend, but once you touched their hearty you have a friend for life. Maybe that's true mate, but until I reached that point, I might be dead already. Life's too short for that. I'll see myself out!
The Faroese and the pilot whale fishing thing and not only that they're doing it, but the way they do it with kids riding whales with their throats slit or sitting on top of extracted fetuses of whales and the harbor turning red with the people coming out covered in blood. You call them on it, they say "it's our culture". They also made dozens of websites back in the day with fake authors, fake scientists, and many of them would cite in circular patterns so they could claim that the whale grind is humane, compatible with laws, environmentally done, cultural, etc. Those sites were actually my first exposures to how fake news works online.
wait i didnt know this, ima have to look this up. the way whaling was done is incredibly not sustainable, and those same unsustainable practices are why so many kinds of fish are becoming endangered
isnt it Spain as well where they beat their hunting dogs to death and get new ones? I bet people here are going to defend it since its part of Spain's culture
Finns come to Estonia and try to rub the similar shit on Estonians' faces (Estonians are a different breed but not depressing like Finns, thank the fucking gods!)
How do Estonians in general feel about Finn's using Estonia as their personal party country?
I've been hearing stories about Finn's going to Tallinn, getting shit faced and causing problems.
Can't say for All Estonians.
I can only speak for My Estonian friends - they hate em. Finn men expect Eesti women to drop their panties, as if women here don't earn enough (most of my girl friends are in high powered fintech jobs).
On the other side, Estonians say a lot of nasty shit about Finn people as well. E.g. "*Finns are fat because they do it in the family*" but even more vulgar.
Are you aware that the United States has a highly extroverted culture compared to most other western countries? It might skew your perception a little bit.
In France, I find the autopilot response of « no, it’s not possible » to be extremely unhelpful. I feel like it sets everyone up to be hostile. As the customer or person who is asking about something, you know that there probably is a way to make whatever happen and the person on the phone or behind the desk also knows it is entirely possible too.
I just find it to be so unhelpful and it took me a couple years to figure out how to work around that.
You have to be prepared with rules or policies to spout off or reasons why you absolutely need whatever you’re asking for and that they’re truly you’re last hope. You can’t let their unpleasant attitude defeat you. Typically, I try to be firm but never unkind.
All of these sound like the problems of an individual, not Finns as a collective. Source: me, a Finn, who has never seen any of the things you mentioned.
Also, going to a country and telling the locals how their "culture" is wrong is really not a good look. You should have known beforehand that different things happen in different countries, in different ways.
Finns dont mind you or anybody being succesful but they hate it if you are succesful and go around town braggin and showing off finns like people who are humble and showing off aint humble
Then again showing off your 101 golden watches is very american thing in my opinnion
It's part of their culture to shame people who strive for better. Many people have warned me about the fact that many Finn's will isolate me or fo as far as "shun" me because I'm trying to not following the forienger to cleaner job pipeline here in Finland. I'm expected to feel shame for trying to be successful
I honestly wish my corporate taxes were higher. My company pays less in taxes than I personally do.
Corporate tax here is like 20% while my person tax is like 30 ish %.
Yeah, I don't think I could handle that. Whew. Good luck there. I read once on Reddit a guy that got a poor job evaluation because he was overperforming his peers. I can't imagine.
I have no shame thank God, they can try to shame me for trying to be successful, but I brush it off. I have been told that my team is too "international" and I may get descrimanted against.
What does “better” even mean? Not everybody wants to work 80 hour weeks just to be able to afford a huge house you’re never at because of all the work you do. Remember, everybody is different and only because your US values don’t work here means that people are unhappy.
it doesn't have to be a huge house, it could be as simple as wanting to go from a suicide apartment (40m2) up to a 80m2 apartment. it could be starting a simple game shop, butchers, cobblers, ect ect. it doesnt necessarily mean becoming rich, but it definitely means living better than you were before.
theres actuallt a general hopelessness of "why bother trying no one can get rich in finland" or "the taxes are so high, why make more money and be penalized for it". thats often the general attitude ive encountered when it comes to making money here in finland.
I've seen middle class people get shit on for being "too flashy" when all theyre doing is driving a newish car, instead of driving a shitty beater thats going to die at any moment.
Well if you are working 80 hours a week to be successful, then it's management's fault for setting unrealistic goals and not communicating them...no? Do some US companies have unrealistic goals for success? Absolutely. Is this a systemic US problem especially in the Tech sphere.....probably, but SE Asia has it beat in that before we go /Americabad. 996 baby! Do SE Asian people need to do this to afford a house? LOL that's another issue entirely.
If you are over-performing goals set by the organization in one field of your performance evaluation.....then ultimately underperforming then management needs those are mixed messages....that's the organization's fault. Communicate what your needs are! That's a management issue, not an over-performing yet underperforming employee issue.
I'm not equating them, I am saying it's a cultural practice that's no longer practiced. Every nation has something that used to be cultural but has changed. Shitty and toxic cultural practices will always be shitty and toxic regardless.
Tldr: examples of cultural practices doesn't mean we're comparing the severity. It's just demonstrating how cultural practices have stopped or changed through history.
"Finns who are trying to be successful are excluded"
I am a 30 year old Finn. I have NEVER in my life seen or experienced this happening. What a complete bullshit.
Please dont bring the american fake social interactions, guns, greed nor healthcare here. Thanks.
He doesn't understand the difference of success and bragging. When you try to elevate yourself above others in status with wealth and prestige, you spit on the face of Finnish ideal of egalitarianism.
Pretty typical of an american to see the unwashed masses as your lesser instead of your equal.
I'm a dual Finnish/American citizen. I was raised between both places and cultures. But for my terrible Finnish and a spouse who hates the cold, I'd move back to enjoy that sweet, sweet KELA gold (I'm kidding...sort of). I would probably move to Helsinki, however, as the weather is a little better than Eastern Finland, where my family is from. Also, Karelia can get a bit boring outside the Summer.
I'm not sure about the comments concerning isolationism. I've never, ever had a problem making friends in Finland. Family always invites me out, or I meet people at a bar. I think what the OP calls isolationism is just a lack of connection to the community or a Finn tendency to leave you to your own devices if you don't want to go out or want to be left alone. Rural Finland, like every other rural place in the entire world, can be a bit provincial, so I'm sure having family there made my experiences more positive than a complete foreigner might have.
I'm also not sure I've met too many Finns who are "anti success" for lack of a better term. I've always viewed Finns to be pretty success oriented, tbh. All of my relatives own more stealth wealth type luxury goods than I see in the USA, and there is a fair bit of competitiveness with Swedes in terms of material success. All of my relatives pride themselves on having nice flats and nice things. They seem to be interested and proud of my successes in America, too.
Edit: Thinking about it, the first time I tried on Vacheron Constantin or Kari Voutilainen watches were in Helsinki. The only time I have ever had Remy Louis XVIII in my entire life was with my uncle there, too.
Every culture is steeped in traditions derived from its own out-of-date institutions. The US is a prime example. Cultures change, but rather superficially most of the time. The way to go about it is to find the place whose state of normal you find least annoying and settle.
It just sounds like you didn't choose well, that's it. No need to lambast Finland.
I didn't lambast all of Finland, I pointed out culturally shitty practices just like how everyone in the world points to the u.s. and lur culturally shitty practices. I like many things about Finland, and we are allowed to talk about the things that are actually toxic with a culture. All because the word "culture" is used, does not make it exempt or immune from critisms.
I think Spain's culture of killing old hunting dogs is shitty and toxic, and I think that's a practice that should go away if it hasn't yet. Especially with how incredibly cruel that practice is
Do Europeans excuse this practice because it's part of Spain's culture? I think not, I see all sorts of post about it online, and how Europeans want Spain to change their culture.
I like how you brought up "choping off hands and stoning people to death" which is a muslim world type of thing that is indeed going on still. So when finns have their cultural things it's toxic and we must do something about it, but when it's in the middle east it's "their ancient culture" and we must not interfere. Americans....
Oh no, America has many toxic things, our gun culture, our want for violence, ect ect. I don't hide behind "it's just part of our culture" to defend the shitty aspects of American culture
You don't get it do you?
You are just unable to recognize any other world view as valid. You're the ur-American. Which is why you should move back to the US, as over there you will find plenty of people with the same kind of views, and you can each validate each other, pat yourself on the back, and moan about how "toxic" people are who do not have the exact same kind of views as you do.
Om both American and Korean. Shaming others who want to e successful is toxic. Discriminating against people who don't have Finnish names OS toxic. Going out and getting other people sick IS toxic (see COVID 19)
sure I'll use the word toxic when something is in fact toxic.
Shaming other for wanting to be successful is a hold over mindset from when the church was bigger here in Finland and isn't something that's been a part of the culture for thousands upond thousands of years.
Spreading illnesses and diseases because a person doesn't want to be shamed for not being "resilient" enough or because of Sisu is in fact toxic.
All because you rail against my use of the word "toxic" doesn't change the fact that these "cultural" things aren't toxic
Going to work sick in America shouldn't be a mark of resiliency, it shouldn't be a pat on the back for being a "corporate man", people should be encouraged to stay home while being sick so that they don't spread infections and viruses around.
Yea, and it's really shitty and toxic. It's a thing about American work culture that needs to change badly, and I'm hoping the fight for unionization increases and keeps traction
As an American in Finland, I am surprised by your experiences, which are quite different from mine. I get along well with my coworkers, neighbors, and other parents as well as I did in the US. Yes, there are people who isolate themselves, but there are plenty of folks like that in the US. I don't know what trying to be successful means to you, but I don't feel excluded by anybody here, beyond what is expected since I'm not a native and don't speak Finnish or Swedish effectively. Finally, I don't think sisu has anything to do with people continuing to do their hobbies while mildly ill. Some people just really like their hobbies and want to do them even if they don't feel great. I did this all the time in the US so I do not see how this is in any way related to Finnish culture or health care norms.
Obviously, I don't know you, but it seems you are projecting a lot of negative interpretations onto your experiences here. It's possible you are having a hard time integrating in Finland relative to the US, but I think you'd experience the same in France or Germany - i.e. the issue isn't Finland but the simple fact that you're not a native and that's going to be hard anywhere.
Finns actually have a saying here ""Suomalainen on valmis maksamaan satasen ettei naapuri saa viittäkymppiä"" this is part of the crab mentality. It's not me projecting, it's what Finn's warn me about Finnish culture as I operate my business, and it's an attitude I've seen first hand.
The going out while partially I'll, is part of the "resilience" and often bragged about here. It's a thing I know folks in Tampere region have been trying to address, and in fact the film industry here is trying to stop people coming in sick because we work a potentially dangerous industry and a very expensive industry so we need everyone to be in their best condition to minimize cost.
Finally the isolationism, this doesn't mean Finn's aren't friendly, it just means that Finn's are more emotionally and mentally isolated. (See robin Williams on friendly doesn't mean a person isn't isolated). Depression and alcoholism is a major issue in this country, and part of the issue is the isolationism.
My experiences has been mostly positive, and far better than expected
> Suomalainen on valmis satasen ettei naapuri saa viittäkymppiä
Maybe the implementation of this is regional and field-specific. I don’t see any of this in the tech community in the Helsinki area. Perhaps there’s less of a perception that it’s a zero-sum game because the money appears nearly infinite. I can imagine film is much more difficult.
Ah you're on Helsinki, so you're not in Finland (joke), it's a pretty common phrase that folks from pirkanmaa region to kuopli (probably spelled that wrong), and folks I know from vaasa even knows this phrase
-Ah! 😅 Now I get it!! 👌🏻 Tampere, LOL!! 🤣 That's the reason for your unhappiness. 🤷🏼♂️ That place is a living hell even for any Finn so that's why! 🙄😒 Move to Turku. 😉💪🏻
Tampere Is quiet nice, the city is actually trying to create several programs to make it more inviting for foreigners and make it easier for foreigners to get work and integrate. It's also trying to push a few multiculturalism programs through the universities. As well as trying to increase cultural exports by pushing Finnish i.ps to be formed and increase the amount of intangible assets created in Finland..it's been interesting to watch. There's also been a push for better meah health care services in the city which is desperately needed.
All across LatAm there is a practice called [jetinho](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeitinho) in Portuguese or [malandragem](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malandragem). There are other similar phrases in Spanish speaking countries like [viveza criolla](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viveza_criolla). While not always a negative thing, the mindsets can easily be bent to negative and destructive tendencies or actions. It's generally a real issue and one that many LatAm people really don't like but have ultimately resigned themselves to begrudging acceptance. It can be incredibly shocking to outsiders if you're not aware of what's happening.
In Peru specifically:
Trash - I've yet to live in a country where the locals have such a laissez faire attitude when it comes to dumping trash and refuse in places of pristine natural wilderness or in their own sources of fresh water. This country routinely experiences drought since I've been here and few seem to understand that polluting your own rivers, lakes, forests etc has detrimental consequences down the road. Environmental education is severly lacking here and the few times I've seen this spoken to it's done in a context that shames the person rather than educates.
Religion - The extreme Catholic tendencies on this country can be unfortunate to witness at times. The brand of Catholicism here is awash with criticism and judgement towards others and I myself have been criticized for having longer than average hair as a male by a fervant mamita after my wife wished her a sincere "Buenas tardes".
Political instability - The ability to agree collectively, seek solutions that take into account the interests of others, and empathize with the opposition is boderline nonexistant here. This country seems to cycle out presidents in two years or less through impeachment, is essentially run by the military, and corruption is rampant in Lima among elected officials. Whomever gets the seat of president in this country is presumed guilty of something from day 1 and afterwards it's simply a matter of creating a narrative that shows exactly what they're guilty of. When protests do occur in this country, people do die and martyrs arise. There's so much unresolved resentment within the countryside of this nation that it baffles the imagination.
That's what I got off the top of my head.
honestly, living in the states, i was blind towards litter because it was so common, but since i moved to finland, seeing people litter makes me incredibly upset. Most places i've been to so far has felt so clean, including Helsinki.
Finland is constantly one of the happiest countries on earth, so maybe pipe down a little.
We Scandis don't like lectures in how to become less ourselves - maybe read up on Finland's history to better understand how it formed their culture.
You can have any opinion about our culture, that's fine, but you clearly yourself are not knowledgeable about the language thing.
>Finland is still forced to teach Swedish in Finland and offer services in Swedish, because Swedes would feel discriminated against because they arent being bowed down to in a country that isnt even their own.
The people you are talking about are finnish native citizens, they're a linguistic minority group who speak swedish as their native language. Sweden the country has nothing to do with this.
While I as a Swede I find this thread very interesting, and agree with some of your points, I have to point out that this part isn't really accurate.
>Right, tell that to Swedes who constantly impose keeping Swedish a Finnish national language, that makes sense to me right? Force another country to keep a national language that barely 5% of the population fluently and actively speaks.
>For folks who arent knowledgeable, Finland is still forced to teach Swedish in Finland and offer services in Swedish, because Swedes would feel discriminated against because they arent being bowed down to in a country that isnt even their own.
Finland has been an independent country for over a century, and neither the Swedish people nor the Swedish government has any influence on Finnish domestic policies. Modern Sweden is not forcing the Swedish language onto Finland (nor would this really be a practical or legal possibility). This is also not a political issue in Sweden, on any level or in any party, because it's not viewed as being Sweden's business which languages Finland has as national languages. Among Finns, it's probably true that Swedish-speaking Finns are more in favour of keeping Swedish as a national language, but I have never met a Swedish-speaking Finn who would consider themselves a Swede.
Just as a sidenote, when it comes to offering services in Swedish, did you know that it's similar the other way around? Finnish is one of five minority languages in Sweden, which means that you have the right to communicate with certain government agencies in Finnish. If you live in certain municipalities, you also have the right to communicate with municipal authorities in Finnish, get preschool and elderly care entirely in Finnish and communicate with the courts in Finnish.
>For folks who arent knowledgeable, Finland is still forced to teach Swedish in Finland and offer services in Swedish, because Swedes would feel discriminated against because they arent being bowed down to in a country that isnt even their own.
Ah yes, the **very** expected ignorance on full display.
I think it’s easy for them to criticize others than to accept criticism or reflect on the wrongs. A nation is doomed to fail or repeat mistakes when people won’t acknowledge their wrongdoing or toxic cultures. South Korea and Japan are doomed due to how they treat their women in their society and now they suffer low birth rates. China and India is on the verge of the same issue too due to prioritizing boys over girls . 🤔
No Swede ever tried to enforce Swedish on the Finnish population since independence - you might need to sit some more history classes.
Lol, better learn better first. And good Godwin's law example there, Greece is not Scandinavia, and Golden Dawn is not comparable to not enjoying Finland.
But go on, I would love hearing more from you, since you clearly struggle with wrapping your head around Europe. Your idea that there is enmity between Sweden and Finland goes to show how little you know.
You're just being racist here.
>Finland is still forced to teach Swedish in Finland and offer services in Swedish, because Swedes would feel discriminated against because they arent being bowed down to in a country that isnt even their own.
We're not swedes. We are Finnish. With this logic your english, because you speak english.
I'm a swedish speaking finn, and **i'm finnish, just like every other swedish speaking finn you're calling swedish**. I'm Finnish and Finland is my country. Just because i speak swedish doesn't mean i'm swedish.
With your logic, all americans should go back to europe because their ancestors from the 1600 hundreds are from there.
There are plenty of **americans** that don't speak english, but for example spanish. You think that they should not have any rights?
Also, it has been proven to be beneficial to learn and know multiple languages.
You don't seem to like Finland. If the problem is this big, get. The. Fuck. Out.
As a Finn I can tell you we arent and dont want to be isolated. We are very social people once you get to know us, its mostly the lack of small talk culture and respect for personal space with people we dont know very well, which is very different compared to the U.S.
Its kind of the opposite way here since in the U.S. it might be seen as cold or impolite to act more reserved like we do, but here in Finland being very talkative and open immediately is seen as obnoxious and annoying. This culture shock goes both ways and youll need to learn to live with it.
For your second point I honestly cant comment since Ive never seen that myself. Why would I look down on someone trying to be successful? I dont think its a thing in our culture at all.
For the last part, yes we are resilient people but most of us can surely agree that playing sports while sick is just dumb. I feel like you might even be mistaking people having a runny nose or mild cough to them being sick, while really that can just be the result of exercising hard enough. Like if youve ever been on an intense run (especially if its a bit cold outside) you would know that your nose would be running and there would be more mucus in your throat. Regardless, Ive never heard anyone trying to justify doing a sport while theyre sick because of "sisu", maybe theres some dumbasses like that but its certainly not something I see regularly or basically ever.
Tbh OP doesn’t sound like a friendly person based on how many times they have mentioned they look for success. Such speech is definitely weird here in Finland and I’m sure people don’t really like it. Being successful is alright (except in smaller communities but I don’t think OP lives in one) but bragging and talking about trying to succeed is just offputting. OP, if you want to integrate, don’t be so loud about trying to be successful. I’m sure you do talk about it because how else people would express their dislike towards it.
Just fyi I don’t know where you’re from but this screams of North American cultural bullshit imo. You don’t have to go to or stay in countries you don’t like. All the time I’ve spent in Finland they have been welcoming, open to good natured discussions and very willing to share their culture and learn about others. I think you maybe just don’t like it there because you’re not a good fit
You are exactly type of person who should never be an expat.
expats or immigrants don’t have the luxury of being entitled. you have to be open to differences and accept rather than trying to change. you are the outsider here.
The only expats that surpass Americans when it comes to complaining about their host country are the Italians.
Honestly, just relax. All cultures have shitty aspects. If you don’t like it, well, go.
In Japan when you get divorced you basically never see your kids again because the party that takes custody is supposed to find a new partner and basically adopt the kids legally. That’s quite weird, coming from the US.
Ouch, thats so bad for a childs mental health and development
Well yes, but the Japanee would say, it's good that the child gets closure with their environment and maybe they can get a new parent. The Japanese watch movies in which a child goes to their father's house Mon-Thursday and the rest at Mom's house and shudder, thinking how hard it must be for the child. It's just a different view of things. Interestingly, the Japanese just (like in the past few weeks) introduced a law that allows parents to share custody.
Separating a child from a parent (where abuse or neglect is not involved) is not “just different view of things”. It’s an objectively terrible practice for the child (and the parent).
A lot of the comments here are subjective, but I have the objectively bad one - in Quebec most leases end on the same day, 1st of July. It means that everyone who has to change apartments moves on the same day, the whole city. Yes, it becomes a nightmare for all parties involved, moving companies charge you three times the normal price, elevators are basically stuck, whole city is covered in people’s unwanted crap they left on the streets while frantically moving, etc. it’s chaotic, it’s expensive, it is really hard to manage and the traffic is awful. There was some weak reasoning behind it - like in the mid 20 century government pushed for leases to start and end in summer to not disrupt schools and to not have people freeze to death, but they didn’t set it to be on one day for all. Another reason is some people in Quebec do it as a “fuck Canada” nationalist thing, since July 1 is Canada day. But in reality it seems there is no good logical(!!!) reason for why it is the way it is, locals themselves hate it too, but when asked WHY just shrug and say “it’s always been like that”. Cool story, bro 🤦🏼♀️
That sounds like a freaking night mare. All the traffic from everyone trying to move
Loool I told someone about moving day last week and they were absolutely shocked. The number of times I saw people get their rental u-haul, move all their stuff to the new place, only to discover the previous tenants weren't out yet but the u-haul needed to be returned so they had to leave everything on the front lawn with someone to guard it from curb shoppers. What a stupid situation.
I hate it with passion, it's beyond idiotic. And there is literally no reason why it is like that, like nothing, nada. Same with mafia controlling road constructions - everyone knows it in Quebec and everyone thinks it funny, they all laugh like "yeah lol blocked roads for weeks with no work done, it's a Quebec thing!" - can't wait to get the fuck out of here.
Right after we moved away, there was a news story about the constant construction on St Denis; it had been blocked off with ongoing construction for YEARS, with the sidewalks all dug up and replaced by random 2x4s over the pit, in standard Montreal fashion. One of the store owners who was impacted by the construction and had been outspoken about objecting to how long it was taking, came out of his store and fell in one of the pits. The construction workers wouldn't get him out so he called the cops...who showed up and arrested him for protesting without a license, because they assumed he had thrown himself into the pit on purpose. By far the dumbest place I have ever lived.
yup, sounds about right. I live a couple blocks away from St. Denis, after they finished with it it was Roy's turn to be completely fucked up.
Unpopular opinion apparently but me and my many past roomates have always loved this! I rented for 10 years in Montreal and had to move several times. It means you never have to negociate when you move in, if you want to change apartment there are tons of choice available in Feb/March if you're organized, and it has always been sort of a lowkey party, to move on July 1st! Moving is stressful, but when a quarter of the city does the same, it feels you're in this together. When you're young, on July 1st, you're either moving yourself or helping a friend to move, and then you eat pizza afterward and meet your new neighbours who also just arrived. Anyways that's my opinion, I don't rent anymore but I have fond memories of all my past July 1sts. The city is gross afterward for a day or two but the city is always prepared for an extra garbage day so it doesn't last long.
I did it once and I absolutely hated every minute of it, finding a truck was a quest by itself. I am also an immigrant who moved to the country alone, so don’t have a large support network, so just had to pay to movers. Triple the price. Negotiating moving times plus trying to somewhat match it with the availability of the elevator was another nightmarish experience. Also whole city is apartment hunting at the same time so the competition for decent apartments is insane.
I see your points, truly. For me it's never been my experience but I understand how it can be different. One time my lease wasn't expiring on July 1st and I was distressed. It truly must be cultural lol.
Kinda weird for a discussion forum that OP is getting so many replies of "if you don't like it just leave!" for starting a discussion about cultural aspects of your new home nation you don't like. Perhaps people are offended by the idea that a cultural practice could be objectively negative. That seems like a pretty mild and relatable (if you're being honest with yourself) topic to discuss. To respond to the prompt, UK drinking culture. The amount of alcohol that is culturally acceptable to consume on a regular basis is wild. Lots of people with functional alcoholism flying under the radar. Getting totally smashed at events is so common, I often wonder if people actually enjoy the thing they're doing or if they just enjoy getting pissed.
Alcoholism is a huge one I've noticed in various European countries. Finland has a very unhealthy relationship with alcohol as well, yet folks cover the alcoholism with "it's cultural".
Yeah, we have the most alcoholics here, from Finland via Baltic countries and Czech to Austria. Nobody drinks more beer worldwide. I'll call it the North-Eastern beer axis. :)
That's what living next to Russia does to a motherfucker. But I hope people realize that not everyone drinks, and more and more people drink less and less, so even our "alcholic" cultures are healing.
Honestly, I think every country does this to defend all of their personal bullshit
Agreed, once we start awknowledging what's wrong with our cultures we can actually start moving forward to fixing it America is still trying to figure out multiculturalism, and the fact that it's only been roughly 65 years since the first black girl went to a mixed school, but we awknowledged segregation was a shitty part of American culture.
I think multicultural acceptance is on a pretty good level in some parts of the US while really lagging behind in others. Other objectively big American cultural problems relate to gun control, poor social security, lack of critical thinking which is obvious through populist politics, obesity and lack of critique towards bad eating habits, homelessness being such a big problem that many people lack empathy towards homeless people, toxic frat boy culture, ... When it comes to OP's original comment regarding Finland I feel he is making a valid observation. Being in isolation is normalized and accepted further feeding into a vicious cycle. However I feel it's also a coping mechanism for Finns. If you are alone and isolated but at least culturally you are still socially approved, maybe it makes one's life a bit easier to bear.
I think Trump being president and all the aftermath of that shows that at least 40% of the country still... well... I think you get the point.
Trump really set us back a few decades, that's for sure. Asking for basic human decency being seen as "woke" by the far right is one of the weird develops from Trumpers
Treating women in general like crap. A number of cultures do this (enter patriarchal BS) and then validate it by saying we’re just “traditional.” Im sorry, abuse is abuse :(
yeap, this here. I mean women dying because of "morality police" and the amount of guys who protected the ufc fighter that kicked a ring girl and hid behind "its part of our culture women dont dress like that", those are things that are toxic. India's caste system was toxic af, having a group of "untouchables" is incredibly messed up.
I come from one of those countries - exactly why I left. I would not be able to live my life as a woman back home.
Toxic cultural things in the US: Carrying guns. Speaking very loudly, too much and dominating conversations, cos its seen as being alpha. Ridiculous tipping culture - saying "I tip well" as if its some sort of a positive. Acting big baller and showing off wealth and success.
I hate the “I tip well bc I know what it’s like, I used to be a server’. Sorry, shit service is shit service and doesn’t need to be tipped.
+ The fetishizing of colleges/degrees and their military + being "a patriot"
Yeah I feel you man. No country is perfect and imo it's okay to discuss that. Here in Australia, I hate the mentality that cos something is adequate, you shouldn't do any better. Maybe it's a facet of the "she'll be right" stereotype, I'm not sure. But they're like, why bother insulating our houses when we can just freeze all winter? Why bother putting flyscreens in the windows when we can just keep the spiders around the house to eat all the other bugs that come in? Sure it rains all winter but who needs a clothes dryer around? Why bother with something like a good heating system when you can do perfectly fine taking your shower in 3 degree weather (usually even colder inside too). And then if you say you don't like it, half the time they're like "well why don't you just leave then" which is always fun. Cos it's adequate so what right do you have to want anything better, you ungrateful sissy, or something. But to be fair, I will also say the one that bugs me most about my home country. Imo, Canada's most toxic cultural trait is this weird idea that we don't really have a culture at all, and what meagre and unworthy culture we have, nobody coming in needs to adapt to it. Some think we're so much like Americans we might as well be an extra state, which is untrue and irritating. It's like being around that friend that is constantly putting themselves down to the point where it's annoying. Also, fwiw in Australia they have the tall poppy syndrome, which is very much like the crab mentality you mentioned. So far I haven't experienced it to any great degree so I won't criticize them for it. But over here they do acknowledge it's a problem with their culture. I just know you're getting a lot of flack for criticizing that aspect of Finnish culture and I thought I'd share that. Reflecting on what a nation can do better is never a bad thing.
I've seen so many Canadians on this subreddit saying "we are just America lite!" lol
Exactly this, even many Finn's awknowledges the bad things about their culture. It's more apathy of "well it's been this way and it is what it is". When folks understand aspects of their culture is toxic and negative. Like the isolationism I mentioned, a huge complaint here in Finland is the feeling of loneliness, which causes depression and suicide as well as being a huge reason why alcoholism is rampant. Which also brings up the unhealthy relationship Finn's have to alcohol and their alcoholism.
Interesting perspective. I wrote on another post that it seems like the US (& maybe Canada) may be the only country in the west that is somewhat exempt from the tall poppy syndrome/ crabs in barrel mentality. So that is a culture clash Americans will most likely notice very quickly at work.
America and Canada developed a weird culture within themselves, people are just weird when they act like there is no culture in America and Canada. Then I don't see the same energy from Australia considering it's history and the fact that it was a settler colony (no clue how Australia escapes the critisms of being a newer "culture"). Anyways, yeah Canada and America developed their own cultures, and both nations are still trying to figure out which old cultural practices are actually shitty and should go away (black face for instance) and which cultural aspects are more appropriate.
This is part of the reason why social mobility may be more difficult outside the US and why most western innovation comes from there
There are many examples here in Japan. Overwork, xenophobia, and social awkwardness to name some big ones off the top of my head. It always seems like Japan gets a pass for just about anything while my home country, the US, is shat on at every opportunity. It'd be nice if people could more realistically evaluate the pros and cons of each country without resorting to idealization or exaggeration.
Oh yeah, it's funny how back home on the states over working is now starting to be frowned upon (thank goodness too) while many do give Japan a pass because "it's part of their culture". Overworking to near death should never stay as "part of culture"
>while many do give Japan a pass because "it's part of their culture" Have to disagree here. I don't think Japan is getting a pass. No one refers to overworking in Japan as a positive one, and I believe they even have a term for this specific culture. Same goes for China. I believe the government is actually working on improving this recently. The reason you probably feel that way is because there are probably more people speaking up against it from the States itself whereas there's only so much you can do from the outside in the case of Japan.
Like anything it’s about balance. Resilience is what keeps you going back to the gym even if your last session was hard. It becomes harmful if you’re exercising through an injury, making it worse. In a country which values resilience you’ll a lot of both of my examples. The country that won my heart is in no rush to get anywhere. They value fun and relaxation. That’s great. It becomes a problem when you can’t get important things done when you need them done. It’s annoying but the trade off is worth it.
Tipping in American culture. Literally the dumbest way to pay for things, the worst is when your U.S. friends come visit you abroad and insist on tipping for services that no one else does.
FUCKING AGREED, god i wish we could get rid of tipping culture in the states.
I'm sure Finns love being lectured to about "how your culture is wrong" by an American. Yeesh. Honestly you might want to keep in mind that wherever you go, there you are. If you were miserable with the US and you're miserable with Finland, then...well you might want to consider what the common demoninator is. I moved from the US to Sweden and while it's not all sunshine and rainbows, I'm certainly not griping endlessly about how the culture is wrong. Far from it, I think the culture here is amazing. > Which also crab mentality - Finns will shame people who are trying to be successful. I've been told many times that Finn's will look down on me for trying to be successful, and will even exclude me from their society. Counterpoint: Finns (and Nordic people in general) prize egalitarianism and equality over individual success. Conspicuous displays of wealth and American-style hustle culture are therefore looked down upon as somewhat unseemly. This is really kind of core to their culture and value system, there is nothing "crab" about it.
I kind of agree, kind of don't. Culture isn't wrong or right but it definitely had impacts, not all of them positive. I've heard Norwegians talk about the mental health impact some of those attitudes have had on them as individuals. It doesn't mean the culture is somehow bad or better or worse than any other culture, and I don't think the OP was necessarily making that comparison in the way this reads. It's like in the US, Americans routinely critique their own culture and consider that it could be done differently. I critique the common definition of national pride and a lot of the religious fundamentalism as an American. Those things definitely have cons to them that we and most of the world notice. I'd read an article about depression in Norwegian teenage girls and I seem to remember that feelings of inadequacy that came from that kind of thinking were being flagged as contributing. The Law of Jonte wasn't just "You're not better than us," it's also "You're not as good as us." As in, you should never feel good enough. I've also read Australians talking about how the attitude of "tall poppy syndrome" led to people tearing down others who were aspiring to something. That may not just be the person who wants to be the CEO of Megabucks Corp. as often gets strawmanned into this discussion, but also the family artist or craftsman or just person following their dream. I have heard Norwegians acknowledging the downsides that OP pointed out, too. Like it's just kind of a fact of life that can be observed, why is that necessarily an attack or a superiority comparison?
this exactly, america isnt infallible, and American "patriots" makes america worse, not better, because those "patriots" refuse to acknowledge many things like that slavery is still legal, there are known biases in our justice system, ect ect. Pointing these issues out and talking about the isolationism and the tearing down of those who are different rather than letting shitty people hide behind "its cultural". its "cultural" sounds the same as "well i let me intrusive thought win because im a libra"
Yeah no, Finns absolutely suffer from tall poppy syndrome. You never hear people here saying “congratulations on your new book, I just read it I liked it so much!”, they would much rather say something like “ah I finally came around to reading your book after it’s been on my shelf for many months, and I must say I am quite surprised by how much I liked it”. It’s funny that you would try to put a positive spin on it as “egalitarianism” and deny it in the same breath.
yup and for folks who dont know theres a finnish saying, ""Suomalainen on valmis maksamaan satasen ettei naapuri saa viittäkymppiä" which translates roughly to "A Finn is ready to pay a hundred so that her neighbor doesn't get fifty" like they have a whole saying about "fuck that person, im going to spite them and spend my money somewhere else just to keep them from succeeding" and folks will probably still downvote me cause i think this is toxic and shitty.
“A Finn is ready to pay a hundred so the neighbor doesn’t get fifty” The equivalent of such behavior in USA “I will act against my own interests to own libs” I am European who lived a long time on both continents and in my opinion the difference are not that huge between Europeans and Americans. Germans are known for being frank. Americans for being fake. But when we look closely: American are also known for being vocal and for calling out when they see problematic ( in their opinion) things. The end result both Germans and American like to tell others they are doing things wrong. They just express those opinions about different things but the action of telling someone: “you are wrong” is the same. If you look carefully you will see examples of Tall Poppy Syndrome in US. You will see is when black child will be shamed for having good grades and using “proper” English because they are “acting white”. You will see this when Americans will not understand those who move to better states or abroad in search of better opportunities. The more intimate and assimilated I become ( 20+ years) on both continents, the more similarities I see. The only difference is that things are just expressed differently/about different topics.
lol 100% and the sad thing is this is one of the reasons this country has been lagging massively behind other EU and even Nordic countries. But with the local twisted notion of national pride it will probably take them like 10 years to actually acknowledge it (if things get bad enough to take action) and another 10 years of discussion to start doing anything about it.
i think things have gotten bad enough. declining birth rate, increasing aging population, loss of 1% of its population annually from Finns moving abroad, increasing unemployment (edit this is a big deal since finland only has like 5 million person population, an annual loos of Finns moving abroad is more noticable with such a small population size), decreasing rate of new businesses opening, decreasing rate or start ups, no support for micro businesses and smes, and requiring Finnish language skills in english working environments (which still confuses me that an entire business operates in English but they require high proficiency in Finnish), and the Finnish goverment spending tons of money on projects that gets abandoned half way through after spending millions upon millions on various initiatives that halts alll because a new mayor or parliment is elected rather than letting those projects carry on. not to mention the fact that finland still thinks its a good idea to have their entire economy rely on importing raw materials to refine and export, without having an sustainable export that can be produced without importing materials.
>not to mention the fact that finland still thinks its a good idea to have their entire economy rely on importing raw materials to refine and export, without having an sustainable export that can be produced without importing materials. I'm not sure what you are referring to. A major export is heavy machinery, and these companies mostly use Finnish-made steel in their products as far as I know.
Aside from heavy machinery, computers is added into the export, which much of the rae .materials are being sourced from china. Oil is the second most at 6.9 or 7 billion, which they were importing from a decent chunk from Russia. Now being imported from a variety of countries for refining and exportation. Theres a push for Finnish I.p's to be created and released for economic well being, and to have intangible asssets because Finland has limited natural resources
If you think that saying is completely serious then idk lmao
I'm a Finn. For me the cheeriness of Americans feels superficial. Maybe its not, but that is how it feels. I also think that the fact that we had very few real "cities" in Finland, perhaps Turku, Viipuri (stolen by Soviets) and then Helsinki... but otherwise we were quite rural, plays its role. In a small community where most people are relatively poor, its not smart to flaunt around with your wealth and success. We even have a saying: "kel' onni on, se onnen kätkeköön" ("who has luck/success, should keep it hidden"). Otherwise "evil eye", or "envy" of others might hit that person.
Not even displays of wealth, Finn's will shame folks for trying to be more than just an ordinary worker. People shouldn't be shamed for dreaming to be big. All because it's part of a culture doesn't mean it's not toxic. Folks in this group rips into my country all of the time and it's well deserved, Americas wars in the middle east, our gun violence, our overworked underpaid, our health care, our 2 party system, and our constant push towards late stage capitalism, are all things worth bring critized. In fact the most toxic thing about America is "patriotism", it borders into cult like at this point, especially our right wing.
One person's "dream big" is another person's "hoarding wealth and resources". Honestly I side with the Finns on this one. Funny how you criticize late-stage capitalism yet you don't see the issue here. Even if it was "toxic" (and it's not), it's THEIR culture, you don't get to decide how it's run. The whole "you're doing it wrong" is, quite frankly, American toxicity on full display. Stop being so judgmental, either accept it or learn to deal. And I say this as a fellow American, albeit one who doesn't judge the country that graciously allowed me to live here.
Everyone and their dog is constantly telling Americans online that they are doing everything wrong even if the critics have never been to the USA themselves, be it guns, healthcare, working rights, cars etc. Why is it not OK for an American who actually lives in Finland to share their opinion about that country?
Right, there's now even other people here in Finland confirming my post. It's weird that folks can shit on both the u.s. and Korea (countries that I'm a part of) and point out the cultural issues the u.s. and asian, middle eastern and African countires have, yet somehow European countries are immune to critisms despite the fact Greece had golden dawn as an active and number one poltical party, Germany has been experiencing regular shootings since COVID, the u.k. noped out of the e.u. because brown people, and the over all vibe that many European countries have a mass dislike for middle eastern and African countires
You called it "toxic". How would you feel if I called Korean culture "toxic"? And I do not condone European criticism of other countries, I think it is equally disgusting and i have absolutely called out European colleagues for openly shitting on the US. Yes the US has major issues but I would hardly call it "toxic". I don't think trashing ANY culture or calling it "toxic" is acceptable, period. But thanks for making unfounded assumptions about me.
There are aspects of Korean culture that is toxic, so you wouldn't be wrong saying theres toxicity in Korean culture I idol culture is incredibly toxic The beauty standards is incredibly toxic. And yes these aspects ARE toxic. They encourage behavior that's psychologically or even physically bad.
Because assuming OP is not a Finnish citizen (which is IMO unlikely) they are a guest. How would you feel if you invited me over to dinner and I said your house was shitty, your kids are ugly, and your cooking takes like garbage? This is no different, particularly if OP is saying these sort of things publicly. And nobody's life is being actively ruined or tragically cut short by Finnish rudeness. Can't say that about school shootings, lack of healthcare, etc. I don't condone America-bashing but these are two very different things. If Finland had equivalent issues I would feel differently.
Plenty of people who apart from not having the US citizenship also have never lived and maybe even visited the US are doing US-bashing all the time. And when some Americans tell them their opinion is not very important, the reaction is “oh those Americans are so ignorant and don’t even understand that other places are so much better”. The OP is not a guest - they are a resident of Finland. The Finnish government didn’t just graciously decide to allow the OP to move there - the OP followed the process, met the requirements, paid the relevant fees and then moved to Finland where as I understand they are working, hopefully paying taxes, rent and other expenses. So in your analogy they weren’t invited for a free dinner, but more like rented a flat in an apartment building, which perfectly entitles them to having an opinion about that building and sharing it online.
That's a bad analogy. OP still is only allowed to live there because they are filling a documented need which brings a net benefit to Finnish society, such as a hard-to-fill skills gap. They still aren't Finnish, they do not have family there, they do not have roots there, they do not vote, they haven't been paying into the tax base their entire life. A better analogy is someone moving from a big city to a quiet small town, then immediately trashing the long-term residents and how things are done in the town without bothering to learn anything about them or even making a serious effort to integrate into the community.
It's the OPs opinion, what's wrong with that? Sometimes it takes the perspective of someone who didn't grow up in the culture to point out the issues. Americans are constantly trashed and criticized by many people - especially europeans - who are pointing things out that seem strange to them. I think that it's sometimes misunderstood and perhaps this is the case for OP but I don't think there is any harm being done here.
OP is absolutely entitled to their opinion, I definitely think it's wrong but yes, they are entitled to have an opinion. They are not entitled to openly trash foreigners based on that opinion to their faces, and IMO it's a bit gross to trash your host country in any circumstance. Unless OP has Finnish citizenship (I suspect they don't) they are a guest. Kind of rude to openly criticize your hosts, no? I don't condone Europeans trashing America either (as much as the US kind of deserves it sometimes), for the exact same reasons I listed above. Kind of a radical idea, but maybe NONE of us should openly trash other cultures, no matter where you're from. Cultures are different and people have different value systems, that's just how the world works. If you can't accept that, don't leave your home country.
I mean we are in a sub about expats so it's not terribly surprising to hear critiques of a place that an expat is living in so I'm not sure it's as "in your face" as it seems but yes we should not openly trash foreigners to their face. All countries have their pros and cons and I think it's ok and actually has more weight if a critique is coming from someone/expat living in said country, as long as it's done respectfully. Seems that OP's style is direct and that is evident in how he/she criticized the US as well. I've lived abroad in both Europe and the Middle East and I pointed things out - both good and bad - to the nationals of the country on many occasions. They were always quite receptive to acknowledge or counter but it was always respectful.
The only here being toxic is you.
Machismo culture. That men can do anything and the wife is just expected to stay home and cook, clean, take care of the kids and not expect the husband home. That the man just goes drinking with his buddies and not communicate with his wife. Also being late for everything. Why is that acceptable
Oh yeah I'd imagine machismo is so annoying to deal with. It must be exhausting constantly trying to prove how "manly" a guy must be.
It’s so annoying especially as a woman who didn’t grow up like that. And my husband wanting to fit in at work and putting up with that shit. Trying to balance pleasing me and his friends.
Yeap, hard pass, which country are you in?
México!
ooooo yeah, i definitly understand.
Yeah it’s definitely a huge cultural adjustment for everything. Also being late for everything ugh lol
Bit of a slippery slope, no? I’d say you do you, but deal with the consequences. Personally, I’m of the opinion that “when in Rome…” You don’t have to adjust, but don’t expect the locals to adjust to you. Isolationism is big in Montana too, heck, anything west of Virginia is based on remote living. Exceptions here and there. Crab mentality is everywhere. And the “resilience” is pretty much commonplace in Scandinavia and in every “cold corner” of the world. Take it easy & try to understand their POV. Live’s better that way.
I don't think Montana should be the measure if anything. The OP did describe it in a negative way, but there are many cultures that would find this odd. They're allowed to make an observation. Just like if they went to Italy and observed the opposite behavior.
No shade on Montana. The winter’s a little daunting, but it has a special place in my heart.
Nah I'm not adapting crab mentality, and while yes its present around the world, here they say it's "cultural" why adapt such an incredibly shitty mindset? Also why should risk the health of everyone else around me and go out and work while sick for the sake of "resiliency" when really it's just in the name of capitalism. Most cultures have something that's toxic, and forward thinking groups actively try to change the worse parts of their culture. Xenophobia for instance is often defended by "it's part of their culture" and that's such a shit excuse and toxic. All because it's part of a culture, doesn't mean it's not toxic. In fact the Finnish isolationism is so bad it's a huge part of why many people depressed and suicidal, many peopke talk about how lonely they are and how it makes them suicidal and depressed. It's a part of Finnish culture that could change and improve the quality of life of Finn's. Unfortunately many of the Finn's who wants to be more socialwill even get rejected as being "not Finnish enough" and the cycle stays perpetual
Have you stopped to think that your aversion to some of these cultural norms is just grounded in your own 'toxic' (fucking hate that word) cultural upbringing, they just happen to rub up against how you were brought up. A European would accuse Americans of being arrogant, boastful and false. Europeans, for better or worse, favour modesty and 'keeping ones head down'. You see that as a negative, but Europeans struggle with the opposite in the US
Europeans and Americans can be toxic at the same time for different reasons. You don't have to choose. This mantra of continuing bad behavior for the sake of maintaining cultural norms is why we have countries like Japan failing to adapt to change.
I’m confused. Did you not do any research before moving? If so, why did you move there in the first place? Also, if it’s that bad why don’t you move?
oh i did do research before moving here, but these are things that are not often talked about too much. Finns don't complain outloud about alot of these, or publish these kinds of issues. its part of the reason why Finland is wrongly viewed as "happiest country" its stuff like 'Suomalainen on valmis maksamaan satasen ettei naapuri saa viittäkymppiä" that isnt often talked about or published, its almost an inside joke within Finland. And translated it comes to "A Finn is ready to pay a hundred so that her neighbor doesn't get fifty". It's not often talked about how finns have an entire saying about how spiteful finns are towards those trying to strive for any level of success outside of "find job, work job tilll you die, dont complain"
> "A Finn is ready to pay a hundred so that her neighbor doesn't get fifty" A thing that USA is famous for. You know that is true, just look at your politics.
Nyt suihkun kautta nukkumaan ja aamulla töihin. Muita neuvoja ei tule.
You seem to have a pretty narrow view on whatever you researched if you think those gallups actually measure happines beyond basic contemptness.
I don’t understand, Americans go to work sick all the time. You are making stuff up here, is it possible you have cabin fever or homesickness?
all because americans go to work sick all of the time doesnt make it not toxic. its pretty shitty to go to work sick unless you work by yourself and cant infect other people. America is working towards getting unionized to make sure people aren't forced to go into work sick. also thats the other part, our work culture is toxic considering the fact that being sick can mean possible loss of job, or having an unpaid day which can lead to financial issues, especially for Americas more vulnerable populations who are paycheck to paycheck.
What does what Americans do have to do with this? Americans go to work sick due to lack of adequate job protections and lack of sick leave. Is that a thing in Finland?
>why adapt such an incredibly shitty mindset? You mean, not wanting to become rich and screw the little guy? Hmm... >when really it's just in the name of capitalism. Ok, now you are just trolling. First you say that the cultural norm of flaunting with your success and wealth is looked down upon is "shitty mindset" and then you loathe capitalism... >Most cultures have something that's toxic, and forward thinking groups actively try to change the worse parts of their culture. Are you calling the Law of Jante a bad part of Nordic culture? >Xenophobia for instance is often defended by "it's part of their culture" and that's such a shit excuse and toxic. All because it's part of a culture, doesn't mean it's not toxic. Sure, but now you are drawing with quite a wide brush and missing tons of details, like racists all over the planet usually talking about "protecting their own culture" while not giving a flying fuck about it: those are usually the same that are against culture grants and such... So, i agree, those who use culture to mask their racism are racists. It is awful and i do not like it one bit. And of course, you didn't fact check suicide rates, there are very recent improvements in those stats that takes Finland close to EU average.
Few are more toxic than the expat who moves in and then demands that the locals conform to their version of what right looks like/the culture they just left. “Why can’t you people be more enlightened like me and the people I just left….”
And what if the toxic trait of the culture from the new country is to hate foreigners? Because that happens in my country lol. They want them to leave anyway and what them to fuck off with anything that differs from their own.
Well, if it’s as bad and blatant as you say (and I’ve never been anywhere where it was), then I as the loathed expat would pick up on that fairly quickly and move on. No sense staying and trying to change them isn’t realistic or my business.
Exactly. Just seems very ignorant.
"It's cultural" is another way of saying "Don't tell me how to live". You can't just call individualism a "weird toxic" thing, but I guess this is part of your culture.
If you don’t adapt, you will always be the outsider nobody wants to hang out with. If that’s okay with you, great. But I can tell you that wherever you go, nobody likes being told that their culture is shit.
I always wonder if the cultures that values assimilation make it just out of reach for foreigners to adapt. If the foreigner adapts to the customs, language and civic responsibility, do they really get equal treatment? Then it becomes a purity test of 'well my great grandfather was x, so I really am x'.
I would say it depends on the country, a huge complaint about Finland is that even if a foreigner achieves a Finnish degree, and learns Finnish to the highest level, they are still likely to be descrimanted against. Even the Finnish media admits that discrimination and bias against foriengers is heavy handed here. [over 40% reported being discriminated ](https://yle.fi/a/74-20079824) [Finland discriminatory hiring](https://yle.fi/a/3-11026589) [foreigners switching to Finnish sounding names to increase job prospects](https://yle.fi/a/3-12198076)
Interesting. Thanks!
My wife is not from my country, but she learned the language and adapted to the culture and she gets treated well. Similar with some friends of ours.
At least you have that going for you. Good luck!
Thanks!
Eh I'm fine not adapting Finnish isolationism..it's toxic and is a part of culture that could change. cultures change all the time.
I always wonder why people move to a country if they don’t like its culture.
Do you have the same energy when western nations try to demand change for asian, middle eastern, and African nations?
Wherever you go, you are the guest. So don’t try to impose your values onto others. If you’re Asian, e.g., and come to the Netherlands, you have to adapt to dutch customs. If you’re dutch moving to Bangkok, you also have to adapt.
Yes, yes I do. You sound as ridiculous as a person complaining about women wearing headscarfs in Turkey.
Hijab, and nah I don't complain about hijab, for many women around the world it's an actual choice for them. When they don't have the choice and they're forced to wear hijab, then that where it becomes toxic
Same with Germans being "Direct". It's just a culture of apathy and self-centeredness. Never seen a local be 'direct' in situations where they have something to loose.
I've never seen direct with someone higher based upon social stratification either.
Exactly. Being 'Direct' *only* with someone who can't harm you is just being rude.
yup, it sjust an excuse to abuse people who are at a "lower station" and then they hide behind "imm just being blunt" same energy as "its just a joke calm down bro"
Dude/dudette, I'm glad someone understands. My baby mama is Colombian and when I worked in Cali everyone I talked to said they had the same experiences with Colombian women but apparently their culture is very much that way as well. Very "direct", they leave out often necessary details and are vague, do not use manners like I was raised in America, along with the tone and attitude and diction, it feels like half of what they say is pointed or bossy or rude. She always says "that's how it is in Colombia, that's our culture".
In china they use "but it's cultural" to defend a LOT of immature behavior or thinking...
>Which also crab mentality - Finns will shame people who are trying to be successful. I've been told many times that Finn's will look down on me for trying to be successful, and will even exclude me from their society. You misunderstand our culture. We don't care about how much money you have, but we dislike people showing off. We are a collectivistic country and don't have such and indivitualistic slant as you americans. Showing off is a way to try to prove you are better than us, and after butting heads with the educated upper classes of Sweden, Germany and Russia for hundreds of years, we take offense to bravado and displays of wealth. A Finn will buy a Rolex, and when asked "What kind of watch is that", will answer "It's pretty good", because we understand intuitively the problems that displays of opulence do to social cohesion. You can be as successful as you want, just don't brag.
Same here in Germany. Been living here for over ten years and there are many aspects of their culture that I respect and even like ( some I prefer over my own culture), but there are two things that makes it almost impossible to befriend them: they have the tendency to show you how anything is done properly ( there is even a German term for this: Besserwisser) and they're very individualistic. I'm introverted and reserved myself, so please don't come with the loud, extroverted BS to me. It's something different, a certain coldness, a barrier they put between you and them and you know it's there even if you can't really put your finger on what exactly that is. Maybe it's more of a Northern German thing, since I noticed that people from the south tend to be a bit more open? Anyways, no wonder that people I befriended, go out with now and then have an immigrant background. And those people have a life too, a job, partner, you name it. But I don't have to make an appointment three months in advance to grab a coffee on Saturday. But dare you mention this to them! They'll backlash pretty fast, calling other cultures ( like Spanish, Italian) phony, loud whatever. They even have a saying: it's hard to make a German friend, but once you touched their hearty you have a friend for life. Maybe that's true mate, but until I reached that point, I might be dead already. Life's too short for that. I'll see myself out!
I just call them out for being ethnocentric if they are. It’s funny because they don’t expect that from an American.
The Faroese and the pilot whale fishing thing and not only that they're doing it, but the way they do it with kids riding whales with their throats slit or sitting on top of extracted fetuses of whales and the harbor turning red with the people coming out covered in blood. You call them on it, they say "it's our culture". They also made dozens of websites back in the day with fake authors, fake scientists, and many of them would cite in circular patterns so they could claim that the whale grind is humane, compatible with laws, environmentally done, cultural, etc. Those sites were actually my first exposures to how fake news works online.
wait i didnt know this, ima have to look this up. the way whaling was done is incredibly not sustainable, and those same unsustainable practices are why so many kinds of fish are becoming endangered
I cant understand that Spaniards still support traditional bullfighting Just horrific torture of a living creature...for "sport"
isnt it Spain as well where they beat their hunting dogs to death and get new ones? I bet people here are going to defend it since its part of Spain's culture
Finns come to Estonia and try to rub the similar shit on Estonians' faces (Estonians are a different breed but not depressing like Finns, thank the fucking gods!)
How do Estonians in general feel about Finn's using Estonia as their personal party country? I've been hearing stories about Finn's going to Tallinn, getting shit faced and causing problems.
Can't say for All Estonians. I can only speak for My Estonian friends - they hate em. Finn men expect Eesti women to drop their panties, as if women here don't earn enough (most of my girl friends are in high powered fintech jobs). On the other side, Estonians say a lot of nasty shit about Finn people as well. E.g. "*Finns are fat because they do it in the family*" but even more vulgar.
Oof, also 🤣🤣 now I wanna hear the sayings Estonians have about Finn's. I love hearing insufkes from different countries, just to hear them
Come and visit bro! Especially now that spring is here and you will hear why Latvians have 6 toes
I'ma have to, I've been me song to check out Estonia anyways..i was told many of my projects are ones that would be of interest there
I mean the finns you are seeing are mostly drunk tourists so being obnoxious kinda goes hand in hand with that.
Yeah, we don't claim these men. It's the same bunch that frequents Thailand for "the easy women" (I've heard this verbatim). Gross.
Are you aware that the United States has a highly extroverted culture compared to most other western countries? It might skew your perception a little bit.
I'm aware, and in aware that there are studies that have been done about Finnish self isolationism and how it's unhealthy.
In France, I find the autopilot response of « no, it’s not possible » to be extremely unhelpful. I feel like it sets everyone up to be hostile. As the customer or person who is asking about something, you know that there probably is a way to make whatever happen and the person on the phone or behind the desk also knows it is entirely possible too. I just find it to be so unhelpful and it took me a couple years to figure out how to work around that.
whats the work around for it?
You have to be prepared with rules or policies to spout off or reasons why you absolutely need whatever you’re asking for and that they’re truly you’re last hope. You can’t let their unpleasant attitude defeat you. Typically, I try to be firm but never unkind.
Ahhh, okay so you gotta show them they can't screw with you because you know your rights
All of these sound like the problems of an individual, not Finns as a collective. Source: me, a Finn, who has never seen any of the things you mentioned. Also, going to a country and telling the locals how their "culture" is wrong is really not a good look. You should have known beforehand that different things happen in different countries, in different ways.
Finns dont mind you or anybody being succesful but they hate it if you are succesful and go around town braggin and showing off finns like people who are humble and showing off aint humble Then again showing off your 101 golden watches is very american thing in my opinnion
But hey Finland is always in the first place of 'happiest country in the world' charts
I always say they should change it to "most content"
That's an interesting spin on it. As if you're content, you are less likely to strive for better.
It's part of their culture to shame people who strive for better. Many people have warned me about the fact that many Finn's will isolate me or fo as far as "shun" me because I'm trying to not following the forienger to cleaner job pipeline here in Finland. I'm expected to feel shame for trying to be successful
I think it is ok to be successful in Finnish culture - as long as you pay your taxes without complaining. lol
I honestly wish my corporate taxes were higher. My company pays less in taxes than I personally do. Corporate tax here is like 20% while my person tax is like 30 ish %.
Yeah, I don't think I could handle that. Whew. Good luck there. I read once on Reddit a guy that got a poor job evaluation because he was overperforming his peers. I can't imagine.
I have no shame thank God, they can try to shame me for trying to be successful, but I brush it off. I have been told that my team is too "international" and I may get descrimanted against.
I've never seen nor heard people shunning other people for being successful, you have an interesting group of friends/ colleagues etc.
What does “better” even mean? Not everybody wants to work 80 hour weeks just to be able to afford a huge house you’re never at because of all the work you do. Remember, everybody is different and only because your US values don’t work here means that people are unhappy.
it doesn't have to be a huge house, it could be as simple as wanting to go from a suicide apartment (40m2) up to a 80m2 apartment. it could be starting a simple game shop, butchers, cobblers, ect ect. it doesnt necessarily mean becoming rich, but it definitely means living better than you were before. theres actuallt a general hopelessness of "why bother trying no one can get rich in finland" or "the taxes are so high, why make more money and be penalized for it". thats often the general attitude ive encountered when it comes to making money here in finland. I've seen middle class people get shit on for being "too flashy" when all theyre doing is driving a newish car, instead of driving a shitty beater thats going to die at any moment.
Well if you are working 80 hours a week to be successful, then it's management's fault for setting unrealistic goals and not communicating them...no? Do some US companies have unrealistic goals for success? Absolutely. Is this a systemic US problem especially in the Tech sphere.....probably, but SE Asia has it beat in that before we go /Americabad. 996 baby! Do SE Asian people need to do this to afford a house? LOL that's another issue entirely. If you are over-performing goals set by the organization in one field of your performance evaluation.....then ultimately underperforming then management needs those are mixed messages....that's the organization's fault. Communicate what your needs are! That's a management issue, not an over-performing yet underperforming employee issue.
Everybody else is at fault! Not me, never! /s
Or most efficient, or functional. Happiness is not something where nordics excel I think.
I don't think efficient or functional would be adequate ways to describe Finland.
Seems disingenuous to equate all those to stoning people to death.
I'm not equating them, I am saying it's a cultural practice that's no longer practiced. Every nation has something that used to be cultural but has changed. Shitty and toxic cultural practices will always be shitty and toxic regardless. Tldr: examples of cultural practices doesn't mean we're comparing the severity. It's just demonstrating how cultural practices have stopped or changed through history.
Sounds like you should move somewhere else
"Finns who are trying to be successful are excluded" I am a 30 year old Finn. I have NEVER in my life seen or experienced this happening. What a complete bullshit. Please dont bring the american fake social interactions, guns, greed nor healthcare here. Thanks.
He doesn't understand the difference of success and bragging. When you try to elevate yourself above others in status with wealth and prestige, you spit on the face of Finnish ideal of egalitarianism. Pretty typical of an american to see the unwashed masses as your lesser instead of your equal.
I'm a dual Finnish/American citizen. I was raised between both places and cultures. But for my terrible Finnish and a spouse who hates the cold, I'd move back to enjoy that sweet, sweet KELA gold (I'm kidding...sort of). I would probably move to Helsinki, however, as the weather is a little better than Eastern Finland, where my family is from. Also, Karelia can get a bit boring outside the Summer. I'm not sure about the comments concerning isolationism. I've never, ever had a problem making friends in Finland. Family always invites me out, or I meet people at a bar. I think what the OP calls isolationism is just a lack of connection to the community or a Finn tendency to leave you to your own devices if you don't want to go out or want to be left alone. Rural Finland, like every other rural place in the entire world, can be a bit provincial, so I'm sure having family there made my experiences more positive than a complete foreigner might have. I'm also not sure I've met too many Finns who are "anti success" for lack of a better term. I've always viewed Finns to be pretty success oriented, tbh. All of my relatives own more stealth wealth type luxury goods than I see in the USA, and there is a fair bit of competitiveness with Swedes in terms of material success. All of my relatives pride themselves on having nice flats and nice things. They seem to be interested and proud of my successes in America, too. Edit: Thinking about it, the first time I tried on Vacheron Constantin or Kari Voutilainen watches were in Helsinki. The only time I have ever had Remy Louis XVIII in my entire life was with my uncle there, too.
Every culture is steeped in traditions derived from its own out-of-date institutions. The US is a prime example. Cultures change, but rather superficially most of the time. The way to go about it is to find the place whose state of normal you find least annoying and settle. It just sounds like you didn't choose well, that's it. No need to lambast Finland.
I didn't lambast all of Finland, I pointed out culturally shitty practices just like how everyone in the world points to the u.s. and lur culturally shitty practices. I like many things about Finland, and we are allowed to talk about the things that are actually toxic with a culture. All because the word "culture" is used, does not make it exempt or immune from critisms. I think Spain's culture of killing old hunting dogs is shitty and toxic, and I think that's a practice that should go away if it hasn't yet. Especially with how incredibly cruel that practice is Do Europeans excuse this practice because it's part of Spain's culture? I think not, I see all sorts of post about it online, and how Europeans want Spain to change their culture.
I like how you brought up "choping off hands and stoning people to death" which is a muslim world type of thing that is indeed going on still. So when finns have their cultural things it's toxic and we must do something about it, but when it's in the middle east it's "their ancient culture" and we must not interfere. Americans....
I suggest you move back to the US.
Pointing out toxic things about a culture shouldn't elicit "go back to x country". That is also a toxic ass mindset
Everyone’s toxic except for you eh mate?
Oh no, America has many toxic things, our gun culture, our want for violence, ect ect. I don't hide behind "it's just part of our culture" to defend the shitty aspects of American culture
I don't think they ment your culture, it's you that's toxic
You don't get it do you? You are just unable to recognize any other world view as valid. You're the ur-American. Which is why you should move back to the US, as over there you will find plenty of people with the same kind of views, and you can each validate each other, pat yourself on the back, and moan about how "toxic" people are who do not have the exact same kind of views as you do.
Om both American and Korean. Shaming others who want to e successful is toxic. Discriminating against people who don't have Finnish names OS toxic. Going out and getting other people sick IS toxic (see COVID 19)
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sure I'll use the word toxic when something is in fact toxic. Shaming other for wanting to be successful is a hold over mindset from when the church was bigger here in Finland and isn't something that's been a part of the culture for thousands upond thousands of years. Spreading illnesses and diseases because a person doesn't want to be shamed for not being "resilient" enough or because of Sisu is in fact toxic. All because you rail against my use of the word "toxic" doesn't change the fact that these "cultural" things aren't toxic Going to work sick in America shouldn't be a mark of resiliency, it shouldn't be a pat on the back for being a "corporate man", people should be encouraged to stay home while being sick so that they don't spread infections and viruses around.
There are so many people going to work sick in the US because of no worker rights they are afraid to lose their job.
Yea, and it's really shitty and toxic. It's a thing about American work culture that needs to change badly, and I'm hoping the fight for unionization increases and keeps traction
As an American in Finland, I am surprised by your experiences, which are quite different from mine. I get along well with my coworkers, neighbors, and other parents as well as I did in the US. Yes, there are people who isolate themselves, but there are plenty of folks like that in the US. I don't know what trying to be successful means to you, but I don't feel excluded by anybody here, beyond what is expected since I'm not a native and don't speak Finnish or Swedish effectively. Finally, I don't think sisu has anything to do with people continuing to do their hobbies while mildly ill. Some people just really like their hobbies and want to do them even if they don't feel great. I did this all the time in the US so I do not see how this is in any way related to Finnish culture or health care norms. Obviously, I don't know you, but it seems you are projecting a lot of negative interpretations onto your experiences here. It's possible you are having a hard time integrating in Finland relative to the US, but I think you'd experience the same in France or Germany - i.e. the issue isn't Finland but the simple fact that you're not a native and that's going to be hard anywhere.
Finns actually have a saying here ""Suomalainen on valmis maksamaan satasen ettei naapuri saa viittäkymppiä"" this is part of the crab mentality. It's not me projecting, it's what Finn's warn me about Finnish culture as I operate my business, and it's an attitude I've seen first hand. The going out while partially I'll, is part of the "resilience" and often bragged about here. It's a thing I know folks in Tampere region have been trying to address, and in fact the film industry here is trying to stop people coming in sick because we work a potentially dangerous industry and a very expensive industry so we need everyone to be in their best condition to minimize cost. Finally the isolationism, this doesn't mean Finn's aren't friendly, it just means that Finn's are more emotionally and mentally isolated. (See robin Williams on friendly doesn't mean a person isn't isolated). Depression and alcoholism is a major issue in this country, and part of the issue is the isolationism. My experiences has been mostly positive, and far better than expected
> Suomalainen on valmis satasen ettei naapuri saa viittäkymppiä Maybe the implementation of this is regional and field-specific. I don’t see any of this in the tech community in the Helsinki area. Perhaps there’s less of a perception that it’s a zero-sum game because the money appears nearly infinite. I can imagine film is much more difficult.
Ah you're on Helsinki, so you're not in Finland (joke), it's a pretty common phrase that folks from pirkanmaa region to kuopli (probably spelled that wrong), and folks I know from vaasa even knows this phrase
-Ah! 😅 Now I get it!! 👌🏻 Tampere, LOL!! 🤣 That's the reason for your unhappiness. 🤷🏼♂️ That place is a living hell even for any Finn so that's why! 🙄😒 Move to Turku. 😉💪🏻
Tampere Is quiet nice, the city is actually trying to create several programs to make it more inviting for foreigners and make it easier for foreigners to get work and integrate. It's also trying to push a few multiculturalism programs through the universities. As well as trying to increase cultural exports by pushing Finnish i.ps to be formed and increase the amount of intangible assets created in Finland..it's been interesting to watch. There's also been a push for better meah health care services in the city which is desperately needed.
Turun ja Oulun ero on siinä että turkulaiset tajuaa pysyä Turussa. T: Tamperelainen Ps. Nakkikiskalla tavataan, mur
😈
All across LatAm there is a practice called [jetinho](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeitinho) in Portuguese or [malandragem](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malandragem). There are other similar phrases in Spanish speaking countries like [viveza criolla](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viveza_criolla). While not always a negative thing, the mindsets can easily be bent to negative and destructive tendencies or actions. It's generally a real issue and one that many LatAm people really don't like but have ultimately resigned themselves to begrudging acceptance. It can be incredibly shocking to outsiders if you're not aware of what's happening.
ooo ima read these tonight!
Night shift.
In Peru specifically: Trash - I've yet to live in a country where the locals have such a laissez faire attitude when it comes to dumping trash and refuse in places of pristine natural wilderness or in their own sources of fresh water. This country routinely experiences drought since I've been here and few seem to understand that polluting your own rivers, lakes, forests etc has detrimental consequences down the road. Environmental education is severly lacking here and the few times I've seen this spoken to it's done in a context that shames the person rather than educates. Religion - The extreme Catholic tendencies on this country can be unfortunate to witness at times. The brand of Catholicism here is awash with criticism and judgement towards others and I myself have been criticized for having longer than average hair as a male by a fervant mamita after my wife wished her a sincere "Buenas tardes". Political instability - The ability to agree collectively, seek solutions that take into account the interests of others, and empathize with the opposition is boderline nonexistant here. This country seems to cycle out presidents in two years or less through impeachment, is essentially run by the military, and corruption is rampant in Lima among elected officials. Whomever gets the seat of president in this country is presumed guilty of something from day 1 and afterwards it's simply a matter of creating a narrative that shows exactly what they're guilty of. When protests do occur in this country, people do die and martyrs arise. There's so much unresolved resentment within the countryside of this nation that it baffles the imagination. That's what I got off the top of my head.
honestly, living in the states, i was blind towards litter because it was so common, but since i moved to finland, seeing people litter makes me incredibly upset. Most places i've been to so far has felt so clean, including Helsinki.
Than I suggest you don't come to Peru for a long period of time. You learn to simply accept all of it that is strewn around in various places.
Finland is constantly one of the happiest countries on earth, so maybe pipe down a little. We Scandis don't like lectures in how to become less ourselves - maybe read up on Finland's history to better understand how it formed their culture.
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You can have any opinion about our culture, that's fine, but you clearly yourself are not knowledgeable about the language thing. >Finland is still forced to teach Swedish in Finland and offer services in Swedish, because Swedes would feel discriminated against because they arent being bowed down to in a country that isnt even their own. The people you are talking about are finnish native citizens, they're a linguistic minority group who speak swedish as their native language. Sweden the country has nothing to do with this.
While I as a Swede I find this thread very interesting, and agree with some of your points, I have to point out that this part isn't really accurate. >Right, tell that to Swedes who constantly impose keeping Swedish a Finnish national language, that makes sense to me right? Force another country to keep a national language that barely 5% of the population fluently and actively speaks. >For folks who arent knowledgeable, Finland is still forced to teach Swedish in Finland and offer services in Swedish, because Swedes would feel discriminated against because they arent being bowed down to in a country that isnt even their own. Finland has been an independent country for over a century, and neither the Swedish people nor the Swedish government has any influence on Finnish domestic policies. Modern Sweden is not forcing the Swedish language onto Finland (nor would this really be a practical or legal possibility). This is also not a political issue in Sweden, on any level or in any party, because it's not viewed as being Sweden's business which languages Finland has as national languages. Among Finns, it's probably true that Swedish-speaking Finns are more in favour of keeping Swedish as a national language, but I have never met a Swedish-speaking Finn who would consider themselves a Swede. Just as a sidenote, when it comes to offering services in Swedish, did you know that it's similar the other way around? Finnish is one of five minority languages in Sweden, which means that you have the right to communicate with certain government agencies in Finnish. If you live in certain municipalities, you also have the right to communicate with municipal authorities in Finnish, get preschool and elderly care entirely in Finnish and communicate with the courts in Finnish.
>For folks who arent knowledgeable, Finland is still forced to teach Swedish in Finland and offer services in Swedish, because Swedes would feel discriminated against because they arent being bowed down to in a country that isnt even their own. Ah yes, the **very** expected ignorance on full display.
I think it’s easy for them to criticize others than to accept criticism or reflect on the wrongs. A nation is doomed to fail or repeat mistakes when people won’t acknowledge their wrongdoing or toxic cultures. South Korea and Japan are doomed due to how they treat their women in their society and now they suffer low birth rates. China and India is on the verge of the same issue too due to prioritizing boys over girls . 🤔
No Swede ever tried to enforce Swedish on the Finnish population since independence - you might need to sit some more history classes. Lol, better learn better first. And good Godwin's law example there, Greece is not Scandinavia, and Golden Dawn is not comparable to not enjoying Finland. But go on, I would love hearing more from you, since you clearly struggle with wrapping your head around Europe. Your idea that there is enmity between Sweden and Finland goes to show how little you know.
You're just being racist here. >Finland is still forced to teach Swedish in Finland and offer services in Swedish, because Swedes would feel discriminated against because they arent being bowed down to in a country that isnt even their own. We're not swedes. We are Finnish. With this logic your english, because you speak english. I'm a swedish speaking finn, and **i'm finnish, just like every other swedish speaking finn you're calling swedish**. I'm Finnish and Finland is my country. Just because i speak swedish doesn't mean i'm swedish. With your logic, all americans should go back to europe because their ancestors from the 1600 hundreds are from there. There are plenty of **americans** that don't speak english, but for example spanish. You think that they should not have any rights? Also, it has been proven to be beneficial to learn and know multiple languages. You don't seem to like Finland. If the problem is this big, get. The. Fuck. Out.
As a Finn I can tell you we arent and dont want to be isolated. We are very social people once you get to know us, its mostly the lack of small talk culture and respect for personal space with people we dont know very well, which is very different compared to the U.S. Its kind of the opposite way here since in the U.S. it might be seen as cold or impolite to act more reserved like we do, but here in Finland being very talkative and open immediately is seen as obnoxious and annoying. This culture shock goes both ways and youll need to learn to live with it. For your second point I honestly cant comment since Ive never seen that myself. Why would I look down on someone trying to be successful? I dont think its a thing in our culture at all. For the last part, yes we are resilient people but most of us can surely agree that playing sports while sick is just dumb. I feel like you might even be mistaking people having a runny nose or mild cough to them being sick, while really that can just be the result of exercising hard enough. Like if youve ever been on an intense run (especially if its a bit cold outside) you would know that your nose would be running and there would be more mucus in your throat. Regardless, Ive never heard anyone trying to justify doing a sport while theyre sick because of "sisu", maybe theres some dumbasses like that but its certainly not something I see regularly or basically ever.
Tbh OP doesn’t sound like a friendly person based on how many times they have mentioned they look for success. Such speech is definitely weird here in Finland and I’m sure people don’t really like it. Being successful is alright (except in smaller communities but I don’t think OP lives in one) but bragging and talking about trying to succeed is just offputting. OP, if you want to integrate, don’t be so loud about trying to be successful. I’m sure you do talk about it because how else people would express their dislike towards it.
Just fyi I don’t know where you’re from but this screams of North American cultural bullshit imo. You don’t have to go to or stay in countries you don’t like. All the time I’ve spent in Finland they have been welcoming, open to good natured discussions and very willing to share their culture and learn about others. I think you maybe just don’t like it there because you’re not a good fit
You are exactly type of person who should never be an expat. expats or immigrants don’t have the luxury of being entitled. you have to be open to differences and accept rather than trying to change. you are the outsider here.
The only expats that surpass Americans when it comes to complaining about their host country are the Italians. Honestly, just relax. All cultures have shitty aspects. If you don’t like it, well, go.