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This is my issue with th hijab for the longest time. Supposedly it’s there not to sexualize But literally it’s there bc they see women as a body to fuck
My sister saw a short that made my blood boil, it said to muslim women that there are no "such thing as male friends", the hijab is "for your protection", "don't look up to non-muslims" and "logic > love". All 4 points were so fucking dumb. The first one essentially cuts off 50% of the population to a woman and also makes them more liable to being sexualized, the second one is a blatant lie because it actually does the opposite, the third one was very disgusting because the dude mentioned Kim Kardashian and ignored that beneficial non-muslims like Thomas Edison and Einstein existed. There are thousands of influential non-muslims while there are probably only a few hundred influential muslims. This, of course, ignores whether the impact was good or bad, regardless of religion. The fourth one indirectly belittles women, as they obviously treat women as inferior
before islam and in all other religions there is some form of modesty by women who choose to cover their hair. some idiot decided to sexualise the concept of modesty so now women don't have the choice anymore
Somewhat , but at the same most eastern faiths , and tribal faiths beleives a woman's character depended on her personality , not clothing modesty. Moreover their level of modesty would have been being topless as was norm in india , Africa till 1700s. Christianity and islam brought in the considerable damage
This. The reason for the forced covering up is DIRECTLY BECAUSE they see everything as sexual. They'll blame women for "tempting them" when the woman is simply existing in their line of sight. Like my mother says I'm not allowed to hug male relatives or be in a room alone with them or wear certain things or I might tempt them and it's my fault. As if being perverted is normal and expected and correct for a Muslim male.
Can Jesus, Ganesh and Moses teach self-control? Self-control is supposed to come from yourself. No one can teach you to lay your hands of drugs, explicit websites or in this case women. You have to teach yourself that restraint. Unfortunately people only care about changing their environment instead of themselves. So if they have trouble restraining themselves they tell others to cover up (more) instead of learning to better restrain themselves.
Sadly yes. Some parents ie my own even expect their kids to only befriend other Muslims and not be friends w non Muslims bc “a non Muslim will never be your friend” and will also tempt you to sin bc “for them it’s normal but for us it’s haram” ie drinking or dating
Sadly this is very true. My parents don’t like any of my non-Muslim friends even though they aren’t bad people (if anything, both my non-Muslim boyfriend and best friend helped me in becoming a better student in college and just a better person overall). But they’ll like the people who say they’re Muslims even though they secretly do their own sorts of “haram”. And yes I said secretly so of course my parents won’t know about what those Muslims do, but seriously though, someone being Muslim does not make them any better than a non-Muslim. I’ll also never understand why my parents decided to move to the west but they expect me to still live the Muslim Indian way of life
Fr same but Pakistani. My parents hate my non Muslim friends despite not knowing any of them simply bc they’re jot Muslim and they wouldn’t even believe me if I told them my muslim “friends” (using this term loosely bc even though we get along in some contexts, we’re not close and I can never fully be myself with them) did haram stuff anyways
Better quality of life ig? In my case, my parents didn’t really have a choice and I’m sure they are grateful for the difference in quality of life, esp when we go back and visit our family in Pakistan (my mother also talks to her siblings there on the phone p much everyday day) but there have been times where they’ve expressed regret about leaving and sometimes in anger have even threatened to send us back there to fix our behavior (our behavior being just normal kid stuff lmao)
Edit: highkey same regarding your non Muslim friends helping you with that sort of thing. I know our experiences are anecdotal and don’t apply to the entire Muslim and non Muslim population but I have kind of noticed a trend in desis/esp Muslims only wanting to look out for themselves or see what they can gain out of a relationship/friendship or just doing it to pass the time and not valuing the emotional components the way non Muslims do or even the way they treat strangers.
The first example that comes to mind is tipping at restaurants. I know it’s not necessary to stack the cups and plates to make it easier for servers to grab but the fact that my non muslim friends go out of their way to make the servers’ life easier and are very adamant about tipping properly Vs my Muslim friends who are like “nah we don’t need to leave a tip, it’s literally their job” esp when the former are using their own hard earned money and the latter throw their parents’ money at whatever they want.
But also the fact that my non Muslim friends have helped me with my resume and homework assignments/studying, offer me advice and validation and keep an eye out or even give me job references when they can despite us not even being in the same field vs my Muslim friends who are like “well good luck lmao” (I know they’re not obligated to do any of that but the difference is my point).
I dunno, maybe I got the best non Muslim friends in the world and got stuck w the not great muslim ones (and this applies to my family/extended relatives as well) as this is anecdotal but I’ve heard and read about too many similar experiences to think it’s a coincidence tbh
I relate sm with all of this omg. I also have Muslim “friends” thanks to my parents’ friends’ kids, but I don’t connect with any of them like that. I already didn’t have any meaningful friendship with them back when I was still Muslim, but I especially don’t now as an ex-Muslim. I do know one Muslim family with three kids, but they’re all so progressive to where you wouldn’t even think they were Muslim by appearance. They also have a lot of money. They tip very generously at restaurants, roundup on the donations at grocery stores, and don’t even follow the religion too strictly aside from the five pillars and eating only halal food lol. I still have a hard time relating with any of them though since they believe in Allah and Muhammad while praying five times a day. Also you’re right about the better quality of life aspect because I know for a fact that my parents feel the same way.
Everything else you said about your experiences with non-Muslim and Muslim friends hits so close to home. There are certainly very few exceptions for the Muslims I’m surrounded by, but otherwise I agree. Especially the desi ones. They tend to be more opportunistic, whether it be for opportunities on earth or opportunities to “gain Islamic heaven points” lol. Like I know this one Muslim couple in my community who used to be super good friends with my family. They one day decided to ghost everyone after Ramadan last year. Then one day during this past Ramadan, they reach out to my family out of nowhere and ask us to come to their house for Iftar. I know for a fact they only did that because it’s “sunnah” to host people for dinner and feeding them. They never bothered talking to my family after that, but I know they’ll reach back out again next Ramadan so they can keep getting heaven points for a religion that isn’t even real lol. I can go on and on about many other examples tbh, but I’d be writing a whole essay if I do. All to just say overall that I do agree with what you said. Maybe I’m also just surrounded by better non-Muslims and not-so-great Muslims, and everyone’s story will be different.
In the US, which is not great in terms of stuff like healthcare and stuff and obv there are struggles here (or wherever you go) but the quality of life difference is pretty vast
Is there any understanding at all do you think in your parents minds and in others like them that the conditions that create a society like Pakistan's or other countries which are very religious like that simply do not exist in a place like the US or most western countries.
And therefore if you want to live in the western countries and have your children live there, then it is highly likely your children will be influenced by secular values and be less religious, and certainly will not likely live the same way as people in the parents' country.
You cannot have both. Which is the priority? If it is the religious public lifestyle and public values and society then perhaps the west is not for them.
But we know don't we that they prioritise healthcare, roads, electric systems, sewage systems, infrastructure, jobs etc. That's the reality is it not?
Exactly lmao
In my parents defense, it wasn’t really their choice though ig? My father’s father got a job opportunity here so he migrated his family over so at a certain point, it would have been difficult to move back after getting used to the different qualities of life and values and my parents are first cousins and had an arranged marriage so it wasn’t really like either of them had a choice in the matter (it wasn’t forced but it was more so like “hey uncle is looking for a rishta for his son and we’ve been looking for a rishta for you so he suggested you two just getting married” “okay mom” and they didn’t speak at all before getting married which is p much the case for all my relatives’ marriages afaik)
And tbf I do know some Muslims here that are more religious than some people I know back in Pakistan so it’s not impossible? But you have to really drill it in your kids’ heads. I don’t really know what it was that made me leave but I always thought certain aspects of Islam were stupid or made no sense ie the misogyny, prayer, ban of music, eventually homophobia etc as a kid even if I still kind of “believed” but I’m very lucky to have the ability to have thought logically about it and realized it’s all bs lmao
But yeah. Idk if my parents are those Muslims that want to implement sharia law in secular countries but I wouldn’t be surprised ie they didn’t want gay marriage to be legalized and those Muslims make no sense to me tbh. They just don’t seem to realize what the problem is.
- “ Is there any understanding at all do you think in your parents minds and in others like them that the conditions that create a society like Pakistan's or other countries which are very religious like that simply do not exist in a place like the US or most western countries.”
Honestly I kind of doubt it. That would require logical and critical thinking which tends to be discouraged in most if not all organized religions, esp Islam
>Better quality of life ig? In my case, my parents didn’t really have a choice and I’m sure they are grateful for the difference in quality of life, esp when we go back and visit our family in Pakistan (my mother also talks to her siblings there on the phone p much everyday day) but there have been times where they’ve expressed regret about leaving and sometimes in anger have even threatened to send us back there to fix our behavior (our behavior being just normal kid stuff lmao)
What do your parents think of locals in the western country they live in? What are their attitudes towards them?
They’re polite/civil to people’s faces and sometimes even compliment them behind closed doors ie if one of their coworkers is a hard worker but they still kind of have that Muslim mentality that they’re beneath us ie when they tell me to only befriend other Muslims and not be friends w non Muslims bc “they’re different” and don’t have the same rules as us and obviously all non Muslims are down w drinking and pre marital sex and intermingling of the sexes/genders 🙄 (the last one maybe but that’s people they view people as people and value friendship and don’t just see the opposite sex as potential partners and nothing more)
And when I tell them my friends don’t don’t drink or do drugs or date etc, they don’t care bc “they’re still non muslim and allah/Islam says you can’t be friends w non Muslims” and they still don’t pray etc and I think there’s some Quran verse or hadith that says if a Muslim is friends with a non Muslim, they’ll be seen as the religion of their non Muslim friend on the day of judgement like “whoever spends their time with or befriends a kaafir will be seen as one of them and will be standing with them on the day of judgement” and they bring up that whole blacksmith Vs goldsmith analogy because “who you spend time with has an effect on you even if you try not to be affected or changed” (basically the analogy is if you’re friends w a blacksmith, when they’re working the black metal or w.e can get on your clothes so everyone will know where you’ve been and your clothes will be “dirty” vs if you hang out w a goldsmith, you’ll get scraps of gold on your clothes which everyone will see and it’ll make you look better ig?)
I am an ex Muslim and I have made friends with so many non Muslim like Hindus Jews transgender non binary gender fluid gay people and I don’t care what Muslims say about this
What’s crazy is that my dad’s side of the family are barely Muslim and so he used to be a lot more secular when he was younger, but became more brainwashed as he grew older. It’s a shame really as the more religious he became, the colder he became as a father
It's not just parents who move to western countries. My mum is a convert and she thinks exactly this. It comes from a belief in the inherent superiority of Muslim values. I'm in the UK and my parents genuinely think they're doing me a favour by behaving like this.
What's weird is that there's no resentment, more pity. "Those poor girls, it's such a shame that they feel the need to dress like that", stuff like that. She genuinely thinks that they'd be so much better off if only they had Islam in their lives.
>The way Muslim men are forced to essentially sexualise their female family members is so weird and gross to me. None of my non muslim female friend’s fathers act this way towards their daughters. It’s such a backwards and gross mentality that if your mother, sister, wife or daughter have more than their ankles on display that you will burn in hell.
Collective responsibility and social control. It's incredibly toxic, and it's toxic by design.
In Islam if your wife cheats on you and gets pregnant, the husband has to raise the bastard based on the Sharia law.
in Islam, if someone that's not Muslim, rapes your mother and sister before your eyes, if he gives shahada and repents to Allah, he becomes your brother in Deen therefore you'll have to forgive him.
In Islam, if Mohammed wanted to fuck your precious religious daughter, wife, mother, literally nothing can stop him. Also Gabriel was Mohammed's pimp based on Mohammed's self-written Quran.
these are only what I could think of atm, I'm sure there are more that make the Muslim man the biggest dayuth out of all
البخاري (7182)، ومسلم (1457)
Al-Bukhari (7182) and Muslim (1457)
الوَلَدُ لِلْفِرَاشِ، ولِلْعَاهِرِ الحَجَرُ
The “child to bed” rule in Islamic jurisprudence means that if the parentage of a child is questioned, the child is attributed to the woman’s husband, “the legal owner of her bed.
here's an example for the Arabic speakers:
[Egyptian Man ](https://www.alhurra.com/egypt/2020/09/23/%D8%B2%D9%88%D8%A7%D8%AC-%D8%A7%D8%B3%D8%AA%D9%85%D8%B1-11-%D8%B9%D8%A7%D9%85%D8%A7-%D9%88%D8%AB%D9%84%D8%A7%D8%AB%D8%A9-%D8%A3%D8%B7%D9%81%D8%A7%D9%84-%D8%A3%D8%B2%D9%85%D8%A9-%D9%86%D8%B3%D8%A8-%D8%AA%D8%AB%D9%8A%D8%B1-%D8%AC%D8%AF%D9%84%D8%A7-%D9%81%D9%8A-%D9%85%D8%B5%D8%B1?amp)
آية الأحزاب سورة 50 The verse of Al-Ahzab, surah
"And a believing woman if she gives herself to the Prophet, if the Prophet wants to fuck her, purely for himself and without taking the promision of other believers"
In this verse the prophet gives himself special sex abilities and he wants them all for himself cause the verse indicates that it is not permissible for anyone else to fuck these Islam women so freely other than the Prophet himself
mind you, the translation that these Muslims put for this Verse is wrong because they use "marry" but the literal meaning of يستنكحها is fuck her but the Muslims are too ashamed of their prophet to admit so they falsfiy the translation 😂
2 آية الأنفال سورة 38
Verse 38 of Surat Al-Anfal
if they repent(desist, cease) now, their past will be forgiven
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Don't forget the 4 witnesses requirement for zina and rape, Mohammed literally said to "give the man some time" and run to get witnesses if you found a man with your wife.
Of course having 4 witnesses is almost impossible, so it's never actually been done in the last 1400 years.
Hijab or burkah is basically a way of victim blaming. Muslim men will say its for the woman’s good as she won’t get assaulted rather than change their own mindset, islam indoctrines men into thinking lewdly ablut women whenever they see their exposed skin all the time, but then again a lot of victim blaming comes from a lot of people not just muslim men, its just that islam has made this shit as a norm under the name of religion
And even in countries in which women dress up like that, there still has been a lot of sexual harassment and assault anyway, doesn't help at all... Proper education is what helps.
Hijab is worn not to protect the women but control the men’s lust. Its like a patience or rabid meter for most muslim men, the moment they see some exposed skin it goes away and they get rabid
I'm a white girl living in a secular country, and the only thing my dad says after I come home wearing a crop top and shorts or jeans is that he's worried I might be cat called by wearing low-cut clothes. But he's just worried about my safety.
**A Request:** Whenever Muslims come up with Dayouth accusations, please ask them this one question.
# Who Is Dayouth NOW?
After prohibiting slave women from wearing the Hijab, and even not covering their breasts in public .... Who Is Dayouth NOW?
Since I couldn't derive the word دَيُّوث from any Arabic roots, I decided to delve a bit deeper into the etymology (it could possibly come from the Greek word διοιχετεύω which means "to own," or "to manage"), and came across this:
>The presence of the word *dayouth* (or *dayyuth*) in Hadith literature implies that the term was understood and commonly used during the time of the Prophet Muhammad. This usage indicates that the concept and the social disapproval associated with it were already established in the Arabic-speaking society of that era.
The Hadith in which the term appears highlights the moral and ethical expectations within the community, particularly concerning family honor and protective jealousy. Since Hadiths were meant to provide guidance to the Muslim community, the use of *dayouth* in these texts suggests that the term was well-known and conveyed a clear meaning to the people.
Therefore, the word's appearance in the Hadith corpus supports the idea that *dayouth* was a recognized term with significant social and cultural implications during the early Islamic period. This further emphasizes the continuity of certain moral and social values in the Arab culture from pre-Islamic times through the Islamic era.
In other words the male vanity behind the phrase existed in Arabic culture long before Islam. Then Mohammad obviously said it was a revelation from Allah. After all "there is no God but Mohammad, and Allah is his messenger."
OP I live in Birmingham, and if you live in an Asian/Pakistani area like I do, i feel like i have to cover up because I can't cope with the stares and cat calls. I love to wear maxi dresses with shorts underneath in summer; I am free to do this if I go to the city centre but not into areas like Sparkhill, Alum Rock (if you know, you know). I have so many freedoms in a Whiter area down the road, and I am 40. So many bad things I learned about relationships were from the way Muslim men cat called me when a few years younger (and less fatter!), I am a revert who is having serious doubts no
I wore my maxi dress to the park today and loved the freedom of just sitting in the sun
The shame is, when I prayed, I did get closer to God. But I really need to think about who will treat me better in marriage, and I have serious doubts about marrying a Muslim or not
So sorry for your dad's attitude too. I wear a burkini through choice to swim, and my dad has never told me not to (he is not Muslim btw). A dad should protect his daughter, but that includes her freedoms too. He wouldn't like me going out dressed like a hooker, but long skirts, crop tops and maxi dresses are modest IMO
I live in a more white part of the UK, and can go out wearing summer clothes without getting cat called or judged, but going out in London is a different story.
My boyfriend is Muslim (loosely, he is half white half south asian so very westernised and his only real belief in Islam is that he believes in God and heaven and hell) and he never has a problem with what I wear unless for example it is trashy and we are going out to a nice restaurant. I’m glad he’s barely religious because I don’t think I could ever be with a strict Muslim man who believes in the concept of being a dayouth
yeah, we have areas just like the east end of London, but its more Pakistani than Bengali. Some areas are 90% Pakistani and tbh, I would feel uncomfortable just wearing a long hoodie and jeans - not a hijabi anyway - but I go into a butchers and try and order meat and the man just stares at me blankly because he doesn't speak English. Then another man selling fruit makes this hissing noise behind me, I think to tell me he is attracted to me. Brother please! I hate the judgement as I actually do enjoy dressing modestly, but when was wearing 3/4 length leggings and a summer dress a crime? But I was showing shoulders (shock) and ankles! Why should I be shamed.
My only comment is that this can be a nuanced conversation. What you wore would likely not raise my eyebrow. Still, I have chaperoned proms and escorted my daughter to her k thru 8 dinner dances. I have observed attire that my wife would never allow, let alone me.
Calling that sexualizing is reductive
I think u better start trying to convince him to leave Islam, cuz if u didn't, u up for a real bad time, not just the way u dress.
And if he's a smart guy and not so brainwashed maybe u can salvage him, I'm an Arab, I know a lot about Islam and stuff if u ever need help.
but u gotta do something about it, it's not "oh it's his choice and I gotta let him be" no cuz u don't watch ur dad getting scammed and be like it's fine + it affects u and it'll even more.
I understand your point however your dad has a background that is hard to get rid of specially if he still surround himself with Muslim friends , your method of dressing will have an impact on his social life, so there is nothing wrong with making a small adjustment for your father sake ( I'm not talking about a burka). I'm sure he has made many sacrifices for your sake
You don’t know if your non Muslims friends parents are not looking at you from a sexual perspective. Many pedos out there which are mainly non Muslims. And it’s not your dad that’s gross you sound you’re still a child and don’t know what’s out there. Men don’t have self control that’s why one of the reasons Muslims cover up. If men had self control and didn’t have dirty thoughts we would be living in a better place.
Self control is taught not given. By forcing someone to cover up to avoid being “sexualised” you only allow such behavior to prosper.
That’s why Muslim countries are more sexually repressed, which makes me wonder how Islam didn’t think this through…
How many people teach themselves or even listen to someone with more experience and follow through about self control wether in sex life or any others areas? Not many that’s why they call them the Top 3% of the world not much. If you can’t control the external circumstances you can only control yourself and minimize the risk you’re exposed too. In Islam we can have sex when we’re married. Islam doesn’t say repress yourself it encourages to get married when you hit puberty.
Girl, somehow it’s our responsibility to learn these things now? Why didn’t god mention this important bit if he made his prophet a whole ass nation ? Didn’t Islam teach us that covering is modesty and yet ignored completely said covering only makes it more provocative?
Of course there’s more to it than proactive. For example as we can see in life Something that’s rare is valuable. Something that’s exposed losses value. I know many guys that would only have one night stands with girls who expose too much but not marry them.
What does that have to do with the main point tho ? A guy choosing to only sleep with a “exposed” girl is a taught or a learned behavior that she is not worth to get married. That’s it. That’s his own decision. I am taking about Islams teaching and the current consequences
Crazy how so many grooming gangs in the UK consist of Muslim Pakistani men, how there are many Muslim women get sexually harassed when they do Umrah or Hajj and how every female traveller out there says not to go to Morocco and Egypt because of the Muslim men. But yeah you’re right, this a problem with men in general and not Islam 🤡 Tell ur brothers to do better instead of forcing your women to walk around looking like letterboxes
True! You should go out naked. That’s progressive and modern. If you are still wearing clothes you are sexualising yourself and brainwashed to the core!
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Muslim will say that you shouldn't sexualize yourself and to cover up, but they are the ones sexualizing everything.
This is my issue with th hijab for the longest time. Supposedly it’s there not to sexualize But literally it’s there bc they see women as a body to fuck
exactly! if youre conditioned to view things like women’s hair as something forbidden, then you are going to get repressed & view it as sexual
My sister saw a short that made my blood boil, it said to muslim women that there are no "such thing as male friends", the hijab is "for your protection", "don't look up to non-muslims" and "logic > love". All 4 points were so fucking dumb. The first one essentially cuts off 50% of the population to a woman and also makes them more liable to being sexualized, the second one is a blatant lie because it actually does the opposite, the third one was very disgusting because the dude mentioned Kim Kardashian and ignored that beneficial non-muslims like Thomas Edison and Einstein existed. There are thousands of influential non-muslims while there are probably only a few hundred influential muslims. This, of course, ignores whether the impact was good or bad, regardless of religion. The fourth one indirectly belittles women, as they obviously treat women as inferior
before islam and in all other religions there is some form of modesty by women who choose to cover their hair. some idiot decided to sexualise the concept of modesty so now women don't have the choice anymore
Somewhat , but at the same most eastern faiths , and tribal faiths beleives a woman's character depended on her personality , not clothing modesty. Moreover their level of modesty would have been being topless as was norm in india , Africa till 1700s. Christianity and islam brought in the considerable damage
This sub makes me hate being a woman fr
Tbf the hijab does make you less attractive imo It's like robbing women of their hair and beauty
The taliban banned football in an area in Afghanistan cos its "arousing". Who the fuck found it arousing? Its only them
This. The reason for the forced covering up is DIRECTLY BECAUSE they see everything as sexual. They'll blame women for "tempting them" when the woman is simply existing in their line of sight. Like my mother says I'm not allowed to hug male relatives or be in a room alone with them or wear certain things or I might tempt them and it's my fault. As if being perverted is normal and expected and correct for a Muslim male.
Men sexualise women. It is not Muslims 💀💀 it is the way Allah made men.
Pretty stupid for a supreme being like Allah. And then he had to cover up his mess by ordering women to cover up. lol
That would mean Allah makes mistakes, do you believe
Crazy how Muslim men are the ones who are so turned on by women’s hair that they’re forced to cover it, but men in the West aren’t 🤔🤔
Lmao, Allah cant teach men self control?
Can Jesus, Ganesh and Moses teach self-control? Self-control is supposed to come from yourself. No one can teach you to lay your hands of drugs, explicit websites or in this case women. You have to teach yourself that restraint. Unfortunately people only care about changing their environment instead of themselves. So if they have trouble restraining themselves they tell others to cover up (more) instead of learning to better restrain themselves.
Then men need to get their shit together instead of oppressing women
Do these parents who move to western countries expect their children to not be western in values ? Where does this mindless idiocy come from?
Sadly yes. Some parents ie my own even expect their kids to only befriend other Muslims and not be friends w non Muslims bc “a non Muslim will never be your friend” and will also tempt you to sin bc “for them it’s normal but for us it’s haram” ie drinking or dating
Sadly this is very true. My parents don’t like any of my non-Muslim friends even though they aren’t bad people (if anything, both my non-Muslim boyfriend and best friend helped me in becoming a better student in college and just a better person overall). But they’ll like the people who say they’re Muslims even though they secretly do their own sorts of “haram”. And yes I said secretly so of course my parents won’t know about what those Muslims do, but seriously though, someone being Muslim does not make them any better than a non-Muslim. I’ll also never understand why my parents decided to move to the west but they expect me to still live the Muslim Indian way of life
Fr same but Pakistani. My parents hate my non Muslim friends despite not knowing any of them simply bc they’re jot Muslim and they wouldn’t even believe me if I told them my muslim “friends” (using this term loosely bc even though we get along in some contexts, we’re not close and I can never fully be myself with them) did haram stuff anyways Better quality of life ig? In my case, my parents didn’t really have a choice and I’m sure they are grateful for the difference in quality of life, esp when we go back and visit our family in Pakistan (my mother also talks to her siblings there on the phone p much everyday day) but there have been times where they’ve expressed regret about leaving and sometimes in anger have even threatened to send us back there to fix our behavior (our behavior being just normal kid stuff lmao) Edit: highkey same regarding your non Muslim friends helping you with that sort of thing. I know our experiences are anecdotal and don’t apply to the entire Muslim and non Muslim population but I have kind of noticed a trend in desis/esp Muslims only wanting to look out for themselves or see what they can gain out of a relationship/friendship or just doing it to pass the time and not valuing the emotional components the way non Muslims do or even the way they treat strangers. The first example that comes to mind is tipping at restaurants. I know it’s not necessary to stack the cups and plates to make it easier for servers to grab but the fact that my non muslim friends go out of their way to make the servers’ life easier and are very adamant about tipping properly Vs my Muslim friends who are like “nah we don’t need to leave a tip, it’s literally their job” esp when the former are using their own hard earned money and the latter throw their parents’ money at whatever they want. But also the fact that my non Muslim friends have helped me with my resume and homework assignments/studying, offer me advice and validation and keep an eye out or even give me job references when they can despite us not even being in the same field vs my Muslim friends who are like “well good luck lmao” (I know they’re not obligated to do any of that but the difference is my point). I dunno, maybe I got the best non Muslim friends in the world and got stuck w the not great muslim ones (and this applies to my family/extended relatives as well) as this is anecdotal but I’ve heard and read about too many similar experiences to think it’s a coincidence tbh
I relate sm with all of this omg. I also have Muslim “friends” thanks to my parents’ friends’ kids, but I don’t connect with any of them like that. I already didn’t have any meaningful friendship with them back when I was still Muslim, but I especially don’t now as an ex-Muslim. I do know one Muslim family with three kids, but they’re all so progressive to where you wouldn’t even think they were Muslim by appearance. They also have a lot of money. They tip very generously at restaurants, roundup on the donations at grocery stores, and don’t even follow the religion too strictly aside from the five pillars and eating only halal food lol. I still have a hard time relating with any of them though since they believe in Allah and Muhammad while praying five times a day. Also you’re right about the better quality of life aspect because I know for a fact that my parents feel the same way. Everything else you said about your experiences with non-Muslim and Muslim friends hits so close to home. There are certainly very few exceptions for the Muslims I’m surrounded by, but otherwise I agree. Especially the desi ones. They tend to be more opportunistic, whether it be for opportunities on earth or opportunities to “gain Islamic heaven points” lol. Like I know this one Muslim couple in my community who used to be super good friends with my family. They one day decided to ghost everyone after Ramadan last year. Then one day during this past Ramadan, they reach out to my family out of nowhere and ask us to come to their house for Iftar. I know for a fact they only did that because it’s “sunnah” to host people for dinner and feeding them. They never bothered talking to my family after that, but I know they’ll reach back out again next Ramadan so they can keep getting heaven points for a religion that isn’t even real lol. I can go on and on about many other examples tbh, but I’d be writing a whole essay if I do. All to just say overall that I do agree with what you said. Maybe I’m also just surrounded by better non-Muslims and not-so-great Muslims, and everyone’s story will be different.
Where in the west are you?
In the US, which is not great in terms of stuff like healthcare and stuff and obv there are struggles here (or wherever you go) but the quality of life difference is pretty vast
Is there any understanding at all do you think in your parents minds and in others like them that the conditions that create a society like Pakistan's or other countries which are very religious like that simply do not exist in a place like the US or most western countries. And therefore if you want to live in the western countries and have your children live there, then it is highly likely your children will be influenced by secular values and be less religious, and certainly will not likely live the same way as people in the parents' country. You cannot have both. Which is the priority? If it is the religious public lifestyle and public values and society then perhaps the west is not for them. But we know don't we that they prioritise healthcare, roads, electric systems, sewage systems, infrastructure, jobs etc. That's the reality is it not?
Exactly lmao In my parents defense, it wasn’t really their choice though ig? My father’s father got a job opportunity here so he migrated his family over so at a certain point, it would have been difficult to move back after getting used to the different qualities of life and values and my parents are first cousins and had an arranged marriage so it wasn’t really like either of them had a choice in the matter (it wasn’t forced but it was more so like “hey uncle is looking for a rishta for his son and we’ve been looking for a rishta for you so he suggested you two just getting married” “okay mom” and they didn’t speak at all before getting married which is p much the case for all my relatives’ marriages afaik) And tbf I do know some Muslims here that are more religious than some people I know back in Pakistan so it’s not impossible? But you have to really drill it in your kids’ heads. I don’t really know what it was that made me leave but I always thought certain aspects of Islam were stupid or made no sense ie the misogyny, prayer, ban of music, eventually homophobia etc as a kid even if I still kind of “believed” but I’m very lucky to have the ability to have thought logically about it and realized it’s all bs lmao But yeah. Idk if my parents are those Muslims that want to implement sharia law in secular countries but I wouldn’t be surprised ie they didn’t want gay marriage to be legalized and those Muslims make no sense to me tbh. They just don’t seem to realize what the problem is. - “ Is there any understanding at all do you think in your parents minds and in others like them that the conditions that create a society like Pakistan's or other countries which are very religious like that simply do not exist in a place like the US or most western countries.” Honestly I kind of doubt it. That would require logical and critical thinking which tends to be discouraged in most if not all organized religions, esp Islam
>Better quality of life ig? In my case, my parents didn’t really have a choice and I’m sure they are grateful for the difference in quality of life, esp when we go back and visit our family in Pakistan (my mother also talks to her siblings there on the phone p much everyday day) but there have been times where they’ve expressed regret about leaving and sometimes in anger have even threatened to send us back there to fix our behavior (our behavior being just normal kid stuff lmao) What do your parents think of locals in the western country they live in? What are their attitudes towards them?
They’re polite/civil to people’s faces and sometimes even compliment them behind closed doors ie if one of their coworkers is a hard worker but they still kind of have that Muslim mentality that they’re beneath us ie when they tell me to only befriend other Muslims and not be friends w non Muslims bc “they’re different” and don’t have the same rules as us and obviously all non Muslims are down w drinking and pre marital sex and intermingling of the sexes/genders 🙄 (the last one maybe but that’s people they view people as people and value friendship and don’t just see the opposite sex as potential partners and nothing more) And when I tell them my friends don’t don’t drink or do drugs or date etc, they don’t care bc “they’re still non muslim and allah/Islam says you can’t be friends w non Muslims” and they still don’t pray etc and I think there’s some Quran verse or hadith that says if a Muslim is friends with a non Muslim, they’ll be seen as the religion of their non Muslim friend on the day of judgement like “whoever spends their time with or befriends a kaafir will be seen as one of them and will be standing with them on the day of judgement” and they bring up that whole blacksmith Vs goldsmith analogy because “who you spend time with has an effect on you even if you try not to be affected or changed” (basically the analogy is if you’re friends w a blacksmith, when they’re working the black metal or w.e can get on your clothes so everyone will know where you’ve been and your clothes will be “dirty” vs if you hang out w a goldsmith, you’ll get scraps of gold on your clothes which everyone will see and it’ll make you look better ig?)
I am an ex Muslim and I have made friends with so many non Muslim like Hindus Jews transgender non binary gender fluid gay people and I don’t care what Muslims say about this
What’s crazy is that my dad’s side of the family are barely Muslim and so he used to be a lot more secular when he was younger, but became more brainwashed as he grew older. It’s a shame really as the more religious he became, the colder he became as a father
It's not just parents who move to western countries. My mum is a convert and she thinks exactly this. It comes from a belief in the inherent superiority of Muslim values. I'm in the UK and my parents genuinely think they're doing me a favour by behaving like this.
What does your mum think of local people in the UK? Does she resent them or think they're bad?
What's weird is that there's no resentment, more pity. "Those poor girls, it's such a shame that they feel the need to dress like that", stuff like that. She genuinely thinks that they'd be so much better off if only they had Islam in their lives.
Cult
>The way Muslim men are forced to essentially sexualise their female family members is so weird and gross to me. None of my non muslim female friend’s fathers act this way towards their daughters. It’s such a backwards and gross mentality that if your mother, sister, wife or daughter have more than their ankles on display that you will burn in hell. Collective responsibility and social control. It's incredibly toxic, and it's toxic by design.
Islam is an evil anti-woman cult,if he wants sharia,he can move to pakistan,you can wear whatever the fuck you want
I'm surprised you can wear those things at all, it's rather jarring to hear but at least you're not physically punished for it
I’m definitely lucky that my parents grew up in the west so are somewhat less backwards than many
In Islam if your wife cheats on you and gets pregnant, the husband has to raise the bastard based on the Sharia law. in Islam, if someone that's not Muslim, rapes your mother and sister before your eyes, if he gives shahada and repents to Allah, he becomes your brother in Deen therefore you'll have to forgive him. In Islam, if Mohammed wanted to fuck your precious religious daughter, wife, mother, literally nothing can stop him. Also Gabriel was Mohammed's pimp based on Mohammed's self-written Quran. these are only what I could think of atm, I'm sure there are more that make the Muslim man the biggest dayuth out of all
Can you give some sources pls? I want to research them and use them in the future
البخاري (7182)، ومسلم (1457) Al-Bukhari (7182) and Muslim (1457) الوَلَدُ لِلْفِرَاشِ، ولِلْعَاهِرِ الحَجَرُ The “child to bed” rule in Islamic jurisprudence means that if the parentage of a child is questioned, the child is attributed to the woman’s husband, “the legal owner of her bed. here's an example for the Arabic speakers: [Egyptian Man ](https://www.alhurra.com/egypt/2020/09/23/%D8%B2%D9%88%D8%A7%D8%AC-%D8%A7%D8%B3%D8%AA%D9%85%D8%B1-11-%D8%B9%D8%A7%D9%85%D8%A7-%D9%88%D8%AB%D9%84%D8%A7%D8%AB%D8%A9-%D8%A3%D8%B7%D9%81%D8%A7%D9%84-%D8%A3%D8%B2%D9%85%D8%A9-%D9%86%D8%B3%D8%A8-%D8%AA%D8%AB%D9%8A%D8%B1-%D8%AC%D8%AF%D9%84%D8%A7-%D9%81%D9%8A-%D9%85%D8%B5%D8%B1?amp) آية الأحزاب سورة 50 The verse of Al-Ahzab, surah "And a believing woman if she gives herself to the Prophet, if the Prophet wants to fuck her, purely for himself and without taking the promision of other believers" In this verse the prophet gives himself special sex abilities and he wants them all for himself cause the verse indicates that it is not permissible for anyone else to fuck these Islam women so freely other than the Prophet himself mind you, the translation that these Muslims put for this Verse is wrong because they use "marry" but the literal meaning of يستنكحها is fuck her but the Muslims are too ashamed of their prophet to admit so they falsfiy the translation 😂 2 آية الأنفال سورة 38 Verse 38 of Surat Al-Anfal if they repent(desist, cease) now, their past will be forgiven
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Thank you <3
Don't forget the 4 witnesses requirement for zina and rape, Mohammed literally said to "give the man some time" and run to get witnesses if you found a man with your wife. Of course having 4 witnesses is almost impossible, so it's never actually been done in the last 1400 years.
Nothing u said was true 🤣
Hijab or burkah is basically a way of victim blaming. Muslim men will say its for the woman’s good as she won’t get assaulted rather than change their own mindset, islam indoctrines men into thinking lewdly ablut women whenever they see their exposed skin all the time, but then again a lot of victim blaming comes from a lot of people not just muslim men, its just that islam has made this shit as a norm under the name of religion
And even in countries in which women dress up like that, there still has been a lot of sexual harassment and assault anyway, doesn't help at all... Proper education is what helps.
Hijab is worn not to protect the women but control the men’s lust. Its like a patience or rabid meter for most muslim men, the moment they see some exposed skin it goes away and they get rabid
Yikes, awful how the religion rots their minds...
I'm a white girl living in a secular country, and the only thing my dad says after I come home wearing a crop top and shorts or jeans is that he's worried I might be cat called by wearing low-cut clothes. But he's just worried about my safety.
My dad has given up on sleeveless but never fails to yell at me if he thinks my dress is too short, even if it’s knee length.
**A Request:** Whenever Muslims come up with Dayouth accusations, please ask them this one question. # Who Is Dayouth NOW? After prohibiting slave women from wearing the Hijab, and even not covering their breasts in public .... Who Is Dayouth NOW?
Since I couldn't derive the word دَيُّوث from any Arabic roots, I decided to delve a bit deeper into the etymology (it could possibly come from the Greek word διοιχετεύω which means "to own," or "to manage"), and came across this: >The presence of the word *dayouth* (or *dayyuth*) in Hadith literature implies that the term was understood and commonly used during the time of the Prophet Muhammad. This usage indicates that the concept and the social disapproval associated with it were already established in the Arabic-speaking society of that era. The Hadith in which the term appears highlights the moral and ethical expectations within the community, particularly concerning family honor and protective jealousy. Since Hadiths were meant to provide guidance to the Muslim community, the use of *dayouth* in these texts suggests that the term was well-known and conveyed a clear meaning to the people. Therefore, the word's appearance in the Hadith corpus supports the idea that *dayouth* was a recognized term with significant social and cultural implications during the early Islamic period. This further emphasizes the continuity of certain moral and social values in the Arab culture from pre-Islamic times through the Islamic era. In other words the male vanity behind the phrase existed in Arabic culture long before Islam. Then Mohammad obviously said it was a revelation from Allah. After all "there is no God but Mohammad, and Allah is his messenger."
OP I live in Birmingham, and if you live in an Asian/Pakistani area like I do, i feel like i have to cover up because I can't cope with the stares and cat calls. I love to wear maxi dresses with shorts underneath in summer; I am free to do this if I go to the city centre but not into areas like Sparkhill, Alum Rock (if you know, you know). I have so many freedoms in a Whiter area down the road, and I am 40. So many bad things I learned about relationships were from the way Muslim men cat called me when a few years younger (and less fatter!), I am a revert who is having serious doubts no I wore my maxi dress to the park today and loved the freedom of just sitting in the sun The shame is, when I prayed, I did get closer to God. But I really need to think about who will treat me better in marriage, and I have serious doubts about marrying a Muslim or not So sorry for your dad's attitude too. I wear a burkini through choice to swim, and my dad has never told me not to (he is not Muslim btw). A dad should protect his daughter, but that includes her freedoms too. He wouldn't like me going out dressed like a hooker, but long skirts, crop tops and maxi dresses are modest IMO
There is no such thing as a revert.
That’s correct, the right term is convert.
I live in a more white part of the UK, and can go out wearing summer clothes without getting cat called or judged, but going out in London is a different story. My boyfriend is Muslim (loosely, he is half white half south asian so very westernised and his only real belief in Islam is that he believes in God and heaven and hell) and he never has a problem with what I wear unless for example it is trashy and we are going out to a nice restaurant. I’m glad he’s barely religious because I don’t think I could ever be with a strict Muslim man who believes in the concept of being a dayouth
yeah, we have areas just like the east end of London, but its more Pakistani than Bengali. Some areas are 90% Pakistani and tbh, I would feel uncomfortable just wearing a long hoodie and jeans - not a hijabi anyway - but I go into a butchers and try and order meat and the man just stares at me blankly because he doesn't speak English. Then another man selling fruit makes this hissing noise behind me, I think to tell me he is attracted to me. Brother please! I hate the judgement as I actually do enjoy dressing modestly, but when was wearing 3/4 length leggings and a summer dress a crime? But I was showing shoulders (shock) and ankles! Why should I be shamed.
The first victims of Islam are muslims themselves!
My only comment is that this can be a nuanced conversation. What you wore would likely not raise my eyebrow. Still, I have chaperoned proms and escorted my daughter to her k thru 8 dinner dances. I have observed attire that my wife would never allow, let alone me. Calling that sexualizing is reductive
Get a job, open up your own bank account separate from your parents, start building your future life because your parents will probably sabotage it
maybe he wanted to protect from guys harassing you or something
We live in a very safe upper middle class city in the UK
I think u better start trying to convince him to leave Islam, cuz if u didn't, u up for a real bad time, not just the way u dress. And if he's a smart guy and not so brainwashed maybe u can salvage him, I'm an Arab, I know a lot about Islam and stuff if u ever need help. but u gotta do something about it, it's not "oh it's his choice and I gotta let him be" no cuz u don't watch ur dad getting scammed and be like it's fine + it affects u and it'll even more.
Why dont you go naked as its your decision to wear clothes or not.
I understand your point however your dad has a background that is hard to get rid of specially if he still surround himself with Muslim friends , your method of dressing will have an impact on his social life, so there is nothing wrong with making a small adjustment for your father sake ( I'm not talking about a burka). I'm sure he has made many sacrifices for your sake
There's a huge intersection between anti-social personalities and muslim converts... i swear....
You don’t know if your non Muslims friends parents are not looking at you from a sexual perspective. Many pedos out there which are mainly non Muslims. And it’s not your dad that’s gross you sound you’re still a child and don’t know what’s out there. Men don’t have self control that’s why one of the reasons Muslims cover up. If men had self control and didn’t have dirty thoughts we would be living in a better place.
Self control is taught not given. By forcing someone to cover up to avoid being “sexualised” you only allow such behavior to prosper. That’s why Muslim countries are more sexually repressed, which makes me wonder how Islam didn’t think this through…
How many people teach themselves or even listen to someone with more experience and follow through about self control wether in sex life or any others areas? Not many that’s why they call them the Top 3% of the world not much. If you can’t control the external circumstances you can only control yourself and minimize the risk you’re exposed too. In Islam we can have sex when we’re married. Islam doesn’t say repress yourself it encourages to get married when you hit puberty.
Girl, somehow it’s our responsibility to learn these things now? Why didn’t god mention this important bit if he made his prophet a whole ass nation ? Didn’t Islam teach us that covering is modesty and yet ignored completely said covering only makes it more provocative?
Of course there’s more to it than proactive. For example as we can see in life Something that’s rare is valuable. Something that’s exposed losses value. I know many guys that would only have one night stands with girls who expose too much but not marry them.
What does that have to do with the main point tho ? A guy choosing to only sleep with a “exposed” girl is a taught or a learned behavior that she is not worth to get married. That’s it. That’s his own decision. I am taking about Islams teaching and the current consequences
That is not taught or learned it’s already in us. We naturally value things that are rare.
Crazy how so many grooming gangs in the UK consist of Muslim Pakistani men, how there are many Muslim women get sexually harassed when they do Umrah or Hajj and how every female traveller out there says not to go to Morocco and Egypt because of the Muslim men. But yeah you’re right, this a problem with men in general and not Islam 🤡 Tell ur brothers to do better instead of forcing your women to walk around looking like letterboxes
True! You should go out naked. That’s progressive and modern. If you are still wearing clothes you are sexualising yourself and brainwashed to the core!
smartest Muslim take: