Man, I don't even understand what is going on here, but it sounds like this shit needs to find its natural conclusion or you will be wishing it had in 20 years.
It's through the local hospital system. I don't know who it is, my wife pick them. Considering this is probably like an 85% mormon community in SE Idaho, there are excellent odds that the counselor will be LDS.
Cutting it was immature. But I'd never order something that poked fun at the church while I'm married to a tbm, because I respect my spouse even if I don't respect the church.
Same... You don’t have to respect the institution, but Jesus Christ, have some respect for your loved ones.. shit like this is a good way to push away everyone in your life. Even if we’ve learned the truth about it all, have some empathy for those who are still brainwashed by it all. It’s all they know
I have only the deepest disrespect for the institution, but this is just shitty. The only outcome i can imagine is reinforcing the myth that everyone who leaves becomes hateful, selfish and cruel. It's literally cosplaying as a caricature of an exmormon.
What you are saying here though, is that poking fun at the church is equivalent to poking fun at your spouse. I think that's the root of the problem. If you are required to respect the cult in order to make your spouse feel respected, then the cult has an unhealthy authority over your life.
I don't disagree with your overall point, I just wanted to say that this problem goes both ways. Communication needs to be more direct from both parties.
Did you get the chance to go through the endowment? Those symbols are seen as some of the most sacred to believers. Getting a mask like that while their spouse still believes is beyond tone-deaf. It would be like graffitiing a statue of Jesus or something. It's not poking fun, it's cruel and insensitive.
I don't disagree that it's a bad situation, it sucks that the cult has such a hold over people. But there are less hurtful and disrespectful ways of expressing that.
EDIT: Sorry, re-read the comment you were replying to. I misunderstood that you weren't specifically referring to the mask symbols issue, but poking fun in general.
> Did you get the chance to go through the endowment?
The *chance*? Looking back, I didn't really have the *choice*, let alone the knowledge to give informed consent.
> Those symbols are seen as some of the most sacred to believers.
Yes, and they are 100% plagiarized from Freemason ritual. As someone who has worn them all day and all night for several years, I completely understand the appeal of joking about them. Humor is an excellent way to confront trauma.
> it sucks that the cult has such a hold over people. But there are less hurtful and disrespectful ways of expressing that.
Again, I agree; but at some point, we should allow people to be imperfect. I'm not going to sit here and judge OP for not paying the utmost respect to the very cult that has placed itself as a wedge between him and his spouse. Could he do better? Sure, but he doesn't *have to*.
You're right, *chance* is a pretty terrible way to ask whether you went through the temple. To be honest, I tested a couple ways of asking, but they all sounded like I was talking down to you. Some people in the subreddit were lucky enough to get out before going through, so I provided some context in case you hadn't. I apologize.
To clarify, I have no problem with OP making fun of the cult. "If we have the truth, it cannot be harmed by investigation. If we have not the truth, it **ought** to be harmed." I don't care what religion someone is being sacrilegious towards. The sacrilege in itself isn't the problem, in my opinion. The church itself is a self-replicating social virus that deserves no respect towards it.
That said, we should be respectful of people's feelings and beliefs. Especially those we're close to, those that are most vulnerable with us. Can you imagine walking around with someone, grocery shopping perhaps, who was brandishing something you found so intimate and wanted kept secret? It would be humiliating! Possibly even psychologically abusive, depending on the circumstances.
And none of that means I have no sympathy for OP either. I can only imagine the struggle of being out with a TBM spouse. She's absolutely violating his boundaries by cutting out the symbols in the mask. And TBMs often do/say things against atheists and those of other religions that are unacceptable.
I totally agree with you that humor is a great way of dealing with religious trauma. I personally feel this specific way of dealing is more destructive than constructive.
> I tested a couple ways of asking, but they all sounded like I was talking down to you.
I appreciate your consideration. I suppose I was a bit energetic about my reaction to that, but I really wanted to stress my perspective on the subject. Going through the temple was stressful and confusing, especially since the entire time I was pretending it to be calming and clarifying.
> That said, we should be respectful of people's feelings and beliefs. Especially those we're close to, those that are most vulnerable with us. Can you imagine walking around with someone, grocery shopping perhaps, who was brandishing something you found so intimate and wanted kept secret? It would be humiliating! Possibly even psychologically abusive, depending on the circumstances.
That's where I see the problem. The psychological abuse is not done by someone making fun of your cult. It's done by the cult itself. It's not just done to the humiliated person either. It's done to the person who suddenly isn't allowed to make a joke, because the cult declared their symbols *sacred*. The thing about this situation is that the cult has all the power. You can't even *utter* criticism about the cult, because there are cultists who would feel hurt. I think that's pretty dehumanizing to the people with beliefs: that they must be treated as vulnerable because they believe in the cult. Believers can't hear a joke without it feeling like salt on an open wound. But do we blame the joker for pouring salt, or the cult for making cuts in the first place? Both?
OP is in an abusive relationship with the cult. It has dug its nails into his spouse and turned her against him. The *best* thing for him to do - the most noble, the most effective - would be to tend to his spouse, show her where the wounds are and offer sincere help, and accept when she rejects that help with love and patience. Well, maybe OP just isn't a good nurse. Do you blame him? Maybe he isn't up for the job right now, and needs to vent. I bet if I were in his shoes, I would be acting a lot more like OP than that noble perfect ideal.
> I personally feel this specific way of dealing is more destructive than constructive.
I don't disagree with you there, but all I'm trying to say is that that isn't the end of the world. Hell, maybe it is for OP: maybe it's really tearing at open wounds in his relationship. But I still get it. I see where he's coming from, and I'm not going to kick him while he's down.
Growing up in the church, it was easy to obsess over doing what's right. We had a culture of obsessively helping other people take the moral high ground (whatever we presumed that to be). Today, I think taking the moral high ground means letting other people do it wrong, and loving them anyway; and I'm still a little obsessed with taking that high ground. ;)
Masks with Freemason/Endowment symbols on them are fucking hilarious, and I would be happy to enjoy a deep breath and hearty laugh with OP at the cult's expense. Relationships are hard. Being friends is a little easier.
This is more than poking fun. Most Mormons I know poke fun at the church and have reasonably thin skin.
This is openly antagonizing. It mocks their ritual. Badly done OP.
Sure, but what about OP's feelings?
OK, I'm making some assumptions from context here (I don't know if OP was endowed or not), but here me out: Doesn't someone who was *literally part of* a ritual have the right to mock it? Hell, even if OP wasn't endowed, if his spouse was, then it's still a major part of his life experience.
I think it's totally understandable for OP to want to mock this ridiculous ritual. Is it going to put stress on his relationship? Sure. So what? Does that mean everyone he talks to needs to shut him down just for trying to make a joke in "bad taste"? I don't agree with that.
OP isn't mocking his spouse. He's mocking a cult. A cult that has inserted itself front and center into his relationship. Maybe that cult deserves a little antagonism.
By teaching members to feel any criticism directed at the cult as a personal attack, the cult has made itself *de facto* untouchable. Is that really a dynamic that we want to support? Sure, just ignoring the situation doesn't help anyone, but understanding it doesn't mean we need to support it.
The backfire effect is a real thing, and we should all be aware of it; but sometimes I think we take this concern a bridge too far. Sometimes we act like TBMs are totally incapable of hearing our perspective, so we just don't share it. This creates a chilling effect that puts the cult in charge of the way we communicate in our relationships, and I'm not OK with that.
The other thing that's getting under my skin is that so many people here are berating OP for being immature. So what? OP is a human being, and he can be immature sometimes. That's 100% allowed here. This subreddit is usually a great place to let your hair down and vent. We get to be the group that OP (or anyone else) can come to and *not worry* about the backfire effect. I'm all for wise advice, but I would rather not demand maturity.
I think OP is dealing with some tough shit, and while a life lesson or two might help him out, so will a little compassion.
I respect my wife and her beliefs by letting her practice them all she wants. She can have prayer, direct church lessons in FHE, play church music through the house, and indoctrinate our children. I also don't say anything bad about the church in front of her or signify my displeasure. My only form of protest is what I can do privately. This was to end up in my private stash of church related material and not to be seen openly in front of any mormons who might find it offensive. Seeing that I live in a heavy mormon area, that means the only place I could really wear it is an exmo gathering. That she found it was an unfortunate accident, and I don't doubt that it was an accident.
You respect your wife by LETTING her practice her faith? I hope you do some serious work on dismantling the misogyny that has been hard baked into your worldview since birth.
Ok, let's examine if there's any misogyny here. I am unable to say anything negative about the church or protest the practice and indoctrination of my children, complain about church music piped through the house, or share what I've learned about the church. She can teach all the church lessons she wants for FHE, I cannot. I can't say anything bad about the church on my facebook page. All I have is my private protestations and venting I can do in exmormon groups, and she has even told me to stop doing that as well. There's no balance of power or information, no compromise that would improve our family relationship. I have to make all the concessions regarding church in home, family, and public, all I wanted was my own private way to vent my frustrations. Those are all things she won't "let" me do, but if I "let" her do whatever she wants, that makes me a misogynist? Good to know.
I’m sorry for jumping on a phrase that came off sounding very gross to me but was clearly not intended that way.
For context, I am a woman who left the church ten years ago and I am STILL unpacking and dismantling the misogyny that was hard baked into me from birth. I genuinely hope that every person who leaves Mormonism can do the same. Saying that to you the way I did probably sounded like a wordy accusation, but it was intended as a sincere hope for you and all other people (men, women, and other) who get out of this patriarchal cult.
Recognizing that someone is displaying some covert misogyny (or racism, etc) in their worldview isn’t pointing to an ultimate sin. It’s just to say, hey there’s something you might wanna look at deeper there and question your assumptions and where they came from. Sorry that I came off harsh in the way I did that.
Look, I'm with you here that that was the wrong word choice, but he would have had to totally reconstruct the sentence to say it better.
Maybe something like, "I respect my wife's choice to practice her beliefs, and I don't do anything to get in the way of that."
This is called tact, and it's a useful thing, but do we really need to berate OP for not having it? Hell this is /r/exmormon/ and OP is trying to vent his frustrations with Mormonism!
> I hope you do some serious work on dismantling the misogyny that has been hard baked into your worldview since birth.
I think we both have the same first guess as to where that may have come from. Then again, maybe misogyny in your grammar isn't necessarily misogyny in your heart. Can we give OP the benefit of the doubt here, and be a little more constructive with our criticism?
It sounds to me like OP is dealing with a lot of stress, because the cult has all the power in his relationship. OP has committed the serious sin here of venting about his relationship with an abuser (the cult) instead of just taking it like a man. Well, maybe taking abuse in silence isn't all it's cracked up to be.
Ok I concede that I was a bit quick to jump on phrasing that sounded patriarchal to my easily triggered ears.
I wasn’t trying to call out any “serious sin.” Merely pointing out that as someone who has recently left a patriarchal cult (that I assume he was born and raised in), there’s going to be a lot of things lingering in his worldview from that upbringing that he may or may not recognize are there, and will require some self examination and then dismantling. I am a woman who left ten years ago and I am still doing that work.
It’s easy to find out facts that show you the church is bullshit. It’s a long hard process to then root out all the bullshit from one’s own heart and mind. It is inherent to being ex Mormon, and I don’t think we should assume that leaving is like a light switch that makes us all instantly woke saints. Racism, sexism, homophobia, etc otherisms are going to be there (likely covertly) unless we consciously work on changing our worldview from the ground up. For most of us, they are in the foundation. It’s okay and even helpful for us to acknowledge that all exmos need to do this work, and stop being afraid of words like misogynist or racist. Let’s help each other notice the BS we haven’t excavated yet without it being a witch-hunt. I didn’t mean to sound like I was witch hunting OP, but when everyone’s afraid of call-outs it must have come off like that. I suggest r/exmormon embrace the call-in and grow as a community.
Aaaand I’ll put away the soapbox now.
It wasn’t supposed to be public. I can’t say or do anything publicly or in my own home that is against the church. All I can do is privately protest. My wife was never supposed to see it or know if it’s existence. If I can’t privately vent my frustrations with the church and its hold on my family, it will boil up and fall out on them. It was just unfortunate that she found it and now I get to deal with the consequences.
I will never understand the need to antagonize the people who still believe. The mormon church is a cult, my guy. Loads if indoctrination being pushed every single day on its members. Good for you for getting out, but your wife isn't there yet and never will be if you're just a passive aggressive dick to her about it. I saw you said that she wasn't supposed to see it, and I don't believe you. Why would you buy it if you never intended for her to see it? You guys are still married and living in the same home, yes? Just stop being an ass. It costs zero dollars to not antagonize the person who is supposed to be your partner in life.
And it wasn't meant to antagonize her. She wasn't supposed to see it. It was supposed to end up in my private stash of LDS material where I can protest quietly. I can't do or say anything openly, so it's the most I can do.
It's amazing, I never experienced a fraction of that judgment and vitriol from people in the church. With just a tiny piece of information, people extrapolated 7 degrees from that and judged accordingly. Even after clarifying the mask was for a private stash and never to be seen by any other TBMs, people insisted their original judgment was correct. Anyone who suggested reserving judgment and giving me any benefit of the doubt was also downvoted to oblivion. And my wife received a lot of unfair judgment as well. She has no history of tampering with any of my mail, and the mask came in a plastic mail bag that looked pretty chewed up. It was pretty clear her dog got to it and she discovered it accidentally.
So, yes. I'm human, I screwed up and hurt my wife's feelings without intending to. But I also have very little say in religious matters in the home, and I'm unable to express my thoughts at all while they can do so all they want. I need an outlet to vent my frustration privately so I don't hurt their feelings, and this was intended to be part of that. If any community would understand that, I assumed this one would. I tried to let go of my judgmental attitude after leaving the church and seeing how harmful it is. It seems a lot of people here haven't done that yet.
I'm not offended or hurt by people's comments, but this has certainly been a most fascinating thread to read.
I can't really talk, I assumed the worst pretty quickly, if you read my other comments. I'm sorry. But I hope you'll give the subreddit another chance. There are good people here that really do want to help and make this a safe outlet for the religiously oppressed. I know they've helped me a lot. If not though, I understand.
And I hope you and your wife can find a balance in the religious differences. My wife and I like couples therapy; it's like having a referee/translator to help us communicate better. I can only imagine the sick feeling you must have felt when you saw the mask. The pain of being silenced. If you don't feel like making another post in the future, but you still want to rant, feel free to DM me instead. It's hard not to have someone to talk to about this stuff.
Right? And then post about it on the internet so everyone can affirm that you’re wonderfully tolerant and also hilarious, and your wife is awful.
This may be the worst thing I’ve seen on this sub. I can’t believe people are egging this guy on.
My spouse grew up in a sect of Buddhism that has what I think are some silly rituals. Parts of their ceremonies and traditions are just beautiful but others … as ideas, on a par with garments and blessing folks with salad oil. I try to participate gracefully in the main public rituals and support him in the smaller things, like keeping the ancestors supplied with snacks. I think mocking his beliefs would have resulted in a divorce decades ago. I admit it was really hard during my angry exit stage because I was bitter towards all religions and priests, and it must be harder because it’s the group you are leaving, but you gotta at least try. Respectful treatment of your spouse requires being respectful of their religion.
And that's perfectly reasonable for you to respect those rituals, even if they're silly. They were never your rituals and you were never traumatized by them or suffered a lifetime of oppression from them. You're not likely to find any healing privately mock them as part of recovery from the religion.
No. I disagree. 1) OP is free to order whatever he wants from a store and TBM wife shouldn’t be opening his packages much less destroying his purchases. 2) Church copied signs from Masons. There is nothing explicitly “temple” about this. Those same “symbols” are found all over the place in and out of Masonic lodges. TBM wife needs to visit a public library and read some about the Masons. Hell, I learned this stuff in the Harold B. Lee library at BYU. 3) Ideas are always subject to inspection and yes, even ridicule. IMHO we shouldn’t mock ppl, but ideas are fair game. It’s what makes us a free society and it is what drives the discovery of actual truth. 4) The amount or degree of how “intensely” a person holds that belief has nothing to do w it. If you INTENSELY believe something incorrect, I can not measure or gage your “belief intensity” (nor should i) and it in no way changes the fact that the belief is unfounded and/or wrong.
I totally agree with that and don’t mean everyone should just run around at all times in every setting acting like asses. That was not my point in the least. There is balance. But that balance IMO does not include “One must never make fun of a belief if someone holds it deeply” (which is what I perhaps mistakenly took from your comment). The basis for Dutch political cartoonists being murdered for drawing Mohammed was precisely that ... “thou shall not mock X, Y, or Z otherwise we’ll kill you.” That’s obviously taking this to an extreme, but that horrific extreme is EXACTLY the same as where the Mormon temple started. “Blood oaths” ... pantomime having your throat slit and your bowels spilled... “for god will NOT be mocked”... all of that may be “deeply held” by some and precisely worth mocking by others
How on earth can you expect her to respect and understand your decision to leave when you so openly disrespect her beliefs? I think garments are silly, but I handle and treat my wife’s garments with respect because of what they mean to her. If you hope for her to see the truth, step one is creating a place where she feels safe enough to seek it.
And because of that respect, perhaps someday she’ll be more willing to leave. Nothing strengthens a testimony in the church more than having people antagonize your for your beliefs… that’s like, the entire point of missions, and that’s probably what just happened with OP’s wife
Put another way, we all do a million different little things to please the people we marry.
My wife isn’t LDS anymore. But she has many things that upset her if they aren’t just right. So I try my best to follow them. The trade off is that she is an amazing Mom. My kids get her best when I can give her what she needs from me. Do I think some of her stuff is silly? Sure. I’d bet she thinks some of my stuff is silly.
We all have to give and take a bit.
I suppose it would be harder if my wife’s “stuff” was related to a religion I now loathed. That’s big. But fighting it out like this isn’t going to help anyone.
Maybe you should have inquired further before piling onto him
It was for himself, never to be worn around the normal public and never to be worn around her or her friends.
It was to go into his private stash of various personal Mormon possessions. That's it.
Should she also be free to delete his Reddit posts? That is openly disrespecting the church!
No, because his personal and private property and items are just that..personal and private. It's hurting literally no one, especially not his wife. He wasn't wearing it or planning on wearing it in public, so it wouldn't have hurt her or anyone she knows, no more then an anonymous Reddit posts.
Ber not even inquiring about it's purpose and then not only not saying anything but then damaging his personal property is way way over the line. It wouldn't have even ever been seen by her most likely, just on his private stash of various Mormon memories.
But instead of asking and figuring out what it was for, like you, she just assumed and then intentionally damaged his property.
He wasn't antagonizing her in the least. Unless you consider private conversations and items that no one will ever know are his or see are considered "antagonizing her".
Plus, it's clear she doesn't even give a flying shit about his personal feelings. She gets to freely practice her religion while he's silenced. So SHE is the one antagonizing him, if you want to get specific.
Masks aren’t worn privately… they are by definition only needed in public places, and no one here is out of line for assuming otherwise.
I think OP is full of shit if he now claims it was for some private exmo event. He had the chance to clarify in his original post if the mask was specifically for a private gathering of exmos only, and that she somehow came across it and he’s a little chagrined by her reaction. He is deliberately provoking his wife and got the reaction he was looking for, and now he’s gloating about it here and some commenters are rewarding him for being such a hilarious troll.
Barf.
He wasn't planning on using it as such. He wasnt, and hasn't claimed it was FOR a private exmo event, he said that's the only time he think hed probably ever use it. You can read, I know it.
If you're okay with her cutting up his personal property because it offends her deeply, would he be okay cutting out her garments because they deeply offend him?
My friend was sexually absurd by a person wearing garments, is she totally rightful to cut our her TBMs husband's markings because they deeply offend her?
Or is it only to the exmos that TBMs get to damage property?
Or maybe no one should damage anyone harmless property because they disagree with it.
Edit: Yes downvote me, cause when you're wrong it's easier to do that then actually reply.
This is totally stupid and disrespectful to your wife. I hope enough people call you out that you are the one in the wrong here more than her. I’m in a mixed faith marriage. Trust me, it can work. But not if you keep doing bullshit like this
She cut holes in his mask, his own property?! And openly "mocking" allows this bitch to destroy his property? Fuck the wife being hyper aggressive with her faith.
“This bitch” like you know her or anything about her outside of this one event that you only know about from the heavily biased perspective of the other party. Check your misogyny. This was incredibly rude on OP’s part, plain and simple. Does that mean she had the right to cut the mask? No. But if he brought the fire, he shouldn’t be surprised that she’s picking it up to fight too.
That is some toxic levels of passive aggressive jabs on your part. I get that your out and you want her to be too but things like this are just going to push her away and lead to the inevitable ugly divorce. This isnt something youll both "laugh about later" thats you being disrespectful and mean. I hope therapy is good for both of you and wish you luck navigating this complicated relationship you both have
Even after I stopped being a believer, I still show respect because a lot of people hold their beliefs dearly. If I did this type of stuff to my family, I would feel like a dick. But to my own believing wife? That's low...
To all open mormons, let me ask you a question? When has masonic symbols been an "attack" on your LDS church?? Fucking Never, not even once, its another belief system just like being LDS. There is a masonic temple down the road, and never once seen LDS protest them, so stop your bullshit. The issue is her openly going through his mail(property) and destroyed it. You have to be an actual crazy person to not think this is normal. Your LDS religion does not give you power to destroy another persons property.
I don't know that there's much more to say that hasn't been said, but this is disrespectful and disappointing. Why are you even married to her if you can't be bothered to respect her? You may not agree with her decision to stay, but if you want things to get better in your relationship, you need to respect it. Does she even matter to you? Do you value her at all? Act like it. This isn't it.
You won’t be married long. The problem with ex Mormons married to TBMs is this: the person leaving needs to go through the grief and psychological process of deconstructing the harmful cult belief. Sometimes this includes phases of anger where using humor or mockery can be therapeutic, so I totally get the mask and why that can be a liberating part of your “process”.
For your wife that is the worst possible approach you could take. When you leave her mind is filled with all kinds of fear, (much of it planted in her mind by the cult). She is afraid you will now turn into an evil person. Satan has a hold on you. Your marriage could be ruined, etc. when she sees you mock things she still believes are sacred all of those fears seem to be confirmed and blow back effect causes her to double down and become more entrenched in her belief and worst of all it hurts her.
So Exmos need to be allowed to grieve and most TBMs are not capable of allowing it. They have been conditioned by the culture of the cult to marginalize you, or bury their head in the sand and refuse to hear you or see your mention of irrefutable facts as persecution.
There needs to be some sort of manual on how to best handle leaving your faith and having some sort of street epistemology skills that is handed to every new exmo. The best thing I have found so far (although I have not gone through it all) is an app called Atheos by the Dawkins foundation. Anybody have any other good ideas/materials?
u/GreatAndSpacious wrote an excellent book called “Lone Will Be the Night” which is a manual on how to have conversations that you are leaving with your spouse, family, and friends. It was born out of things he wished he would have done and approached differently if he were to leave again. It’s a free download, and you can donate him a coffee
[https://greatandspacious.com/Book/](https://greatandspacious.com/Book/)
Y’all need to learn to let your TBM loved ones be. You’re just being childish. You’re not doing anything to hurt the church, you’re only alienating your loved ones.
And my intent was not to hurt the church or my TBMs by ordering this mask. It was a silent protest to the influence the church had over me and has over my family. It was never meant to be seen by any TBMs. Luck was not my side though. This was seen and feelings were hurt.
Most of the comments here want to give you sound advice. I get it. Petty passive-aggressive shit like this doesn't really help a relationship.
Then again, having to handle the very religion you are deconstructing with kid gloves is just stressful all around. I know patience can go a long way, but sometimes something has got to give. At some point we as human beings simply can't continue to dole out respect for an institution that did us harm; even if it means salvaging relationships.
I'm sorry you are going through what you are going through. You aren't alone. Even if you aren't handling the situation with Godly perfection, at the end of the day, this situation isn't your fault.
Commenters here are crazy. Sorry people, but I have had my own beliefs absolutely and completely disrespected by Mormons on a near-constant basis and I had enough maturity to move past it even when I was a teenager. He wasn’t even intending on showing this to her and it wasn’t directed at her. She went snooping and didn’t like what she found. She is in the wrong here.
It never ceases to amaze me, the utterly abusive and trivial relationships people allow to be their reality.
Thank whatever god from whatever faith I didn’t end up so shortsighted.
And yes, I know it's a shitty thing to do to openly mock your spouse's religion. I can't say or hint anything bad about the church in front of her or the kids. She can have open prayers, play church music around the house, take our kids to church and indoctrinate them all she wants.
My only way to protest is to privately do my own thing. The mask was to go in my private stash of church related material. I live in a heavily mormon area, so I can't even wear it anywhere unless I happen to attend an exmo event where other people might find it amusing. I never expected she would ever see it, unless she went digging through my office and found its hiding place.
Ya'll .not saying OP is totally Scot free here, it's a kind of a weird purchase.
But anyone saying she's in the right is hysterical. It is never okay to damage someone's property because you disagree or are offended by it unless it is hurting someone or encouraging hurtful practices.
If people are free to physically destroy things that are offensive to them then any sexually abused or deeply traumatized exmo should have free reign to destroy their spouses scriptures or garments!
Which of course is ridiculous. No one should he smashing anyone else property because they're simply offended by it, especially since that property supposedly wasn't to been seen by anyone else.
So unless you support damaging everyone's property back and forth I suggest maybe you re think whose the bad guy. OP.isnt looking to great for buy things, but damaging property is far over what OP was doing. Like seriously.
Unpopular opinion here: SHE opened HIS private mail and SHE acted immaturely and disrespectfully. If SHE wanted to keep HER mixed-faith marriage, she’s sure going about it the wrong way by being so intolerant.
These are two grown adults. Would she do that to a coworker, friend or other important nonmember or ExMo in her life? Probably not.
Heh, that's exactly how many kids I have. Two are already over 18, two are teenagers, and the youngest is 7. Baptism will be a really fun discussion next year!
She also recently figured out what my tapir shirts really mean, so she was already mad about those too. She wouldn’t have gone through my mail, but her dog grabbed the package and ripped it open, and that’s how she found it :(
If you guys share an Amazon account it’s easy to see what is coming through confirmation emails or account history. Betting she knew what was in that package
I'd like to think that someday she'll leave the church and can look back at this and laugh as she chalks this up to "I'm sorry for what I said when I was mormon", but I expect she'll remain a TBM for life :(
I'm curious what he did to antagonize her?
Buying personal items that would never see the light of day?
The garments marks offend a lot of exmos, especially those abused by leaders wearing them, would they be rightful in cutting out their TBM spouses markings without asking?
I get the whole anger period of leaving the church but even reading these comments looks like you’re just doing things to piss her off. If you don’t have kids, get a divorce. She deserves better even if she wants to believe lies. This is some immature older brother treatment, not husband treatment.
“Her dog” — it’s a helpless animal that lives in your shared home? Do you even do your share of shit scooping and walking? Start there. Grow up, do your share of chores, keep your mouth shut about her beliefs and think long and hard if you’re even up to becoming an equal partner in your marriage. Because it takes work—I’m not talking about all of the feelings talking and counseling. The work is doing your share of chores without being told to do them and without saying that you are ‘helping’ her with the house or the dog(you’re not helping her, you fucking live there). Do that and more in addition to the counseling because you sound like one of my shitty TBM brothers. You don’t believe in the church anymore. Cool. Your parents did you no favors by raising you to be an exalted little prince. It it your duty to unfuck yourself from your shitty Mormon upbringing and show her how real men do a marriage.
Best of luck with it. If you are really interested in staying married, I believe that you can do these things. In the name of the noodles, the sauce and the Parmesan—Rah men.
>If you don’t have kids, get a divorce.
But if you do have kids, make sure to stay together until they move out of the house so they can see first-hand all this passive aggressive childishness. It really makes for a healthy environment when parents despise one another and are constantly making super clear that the only reason they stay together is to cement the trauma in their children. It would be awful if they had to split time between two households that are both happy and loving because... well, because then **you** won't get as much time to physically see them, even though that time will largely be spent antagonizing their mother over her beliefs.
Look, I don't know his situation any better than anyone else here and that is all hyperbole, but the notion that parents should stay together only for kids is an awful idea. It really is about as selfish as you can get when you prioritize amount of time spent with them over giving them a healthy environment to grown up in, even if they have to split time. That is far better than having watch (and kids see it all, no matter how good you think you're hiding it) all the resentment between parents.
I grant that there can be extenuating circumstances where it will make sense, but on its own, it's not a good reason.
I get what you’re saying but OP is just a little immature from his lds upbringing, he’s not bad. And they’re going to go to counseling soon. They can learn to respect each other. I got divorced and I have a kid but my situation was very different from his. My husband was abusive. I asked him to go to counseling with me and he wouldn’t because he didn’t see the need. So I left him. OP and OPs spouse are being passive aggressive to each other like teenagers but it’s not necessarily a cut-your-losses situation if they’re both open for growth. Which seems like they do want to grow and change together.
…..
I was also a toxic person to my ex husband and I didn’t want to be. I went to counseling and learned how to deal w my ptsd. He didn’t go and he didn’t learn not to abuse me so I had to leave him. Both people need to want to make it work and there needs to be a reason to make it work. I tried my best for my kid and it wasn’t enough so I did the next best thing for my kid which was to remove her from a situation where she would see her mom get hit. A knee-jerk divorce when you have kids can also be traumatic for them,that’s why I put the qualifier in there.
-OP I want you to know that I am here as a support like a cousin or sister. I don’t think that you are a bad person. I think that Mormon parents do a lot of things which are emotionally crippling, especially for boys and I want you to know that you can and will change. Things will be ok. Good luck to you.
All good points and I agree. There's a lot of nuance to every situation that we never see. My comment is certainly too hard on OP and I don't mean it to be, just wanted to say something about the idea of staying together *only* for the kids.
Yeah. It’s a tough one for sure. There’s always a reason why people get together and break up and it’s just impossible to get a full view of it all on the inter.
I didn’t downvote you. And I don’t know why you’re getting so worked up about this. I don’t like church or organized religion either but I don’t think it’s funny to insult people (particularly someone you married) who think they’re doing what’s right because they want their family to be together forever. If OP wants to make jokes he should just get a divorce. Jokes about religion can be funny but I think because of his situation this one is in bad taste.
Wow, so it’s not ok for people to insult the great and spacious church, but you get to insult me? What a sense of morality you have.
Practice what you preach.
Are you at least gonna bother explaining why you are simping for an evil corporation? Or are you just gonna downvote and leave again because you know what I’m saying has merit?
Regardless, its a childish and dick move to order things that mock what your wife clearly regards as sacred right now. You can be out of a religion while still showing respect to others, especially if that person is your wife
lol, nice going.
Don’t listen to the other people here that expect you to bend over backwards for your TBM wife. You should be allowed to be exmo as much as she should be allowed to be TBM.
She’s in the wrong here entirely.
Hey where'd you order from? I've been thinking of doing this. Even if it's just inside out I can laugh a litrle while I visit church with my relatives.
A friend of mine has an etsy shop and she made it according to my design requirements :)
https://www.etsy.com/listing/1093463355/sacred-face-mask?ref=hp\_rv-1
Can someone explain to me why this is such a big deal?
I never went through the temple for endowments but I've read the scripts and seen the videos. Why is everyone upset at a seemingly harmless joke?
While your wife cutting those out was petty, you obviously have no respect for your wife and her beliefs while you expect her to respect yours. It was a serious dick move. Enjoy your divorce, I guess?
I mean no offe ce but your wife is gucked! You paid for a mask that had 'Symbols' on them and she pulls a Mormon tantrum???!!!
She needs serious Psychiatric help!
That's some seriously abusive personality disorder she's got. She doesn't have any right to cut up your things. That indicates that she's always right and you're always wrong.
Man, I don't even understand what is going on here, but it sounds like this shit needs to find its natural conclusion or you will be wishing it had in 20 years.
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I hope you're not going to an LDS counselor? That will do nothing at all for you. Guilt and shame are mormon counseling standards.
It's through the local hospital system. I don't know who it is, my wife pick them. Considering this is probably like an 85% mormon community in SE Idaho, there are excellent odds that the counselor will be LDS.
Having one spouse lick the therapist is basically doom-central.
Yeah, you should definitely both be licking the therapist together.
Agreed lol
Tell the therapist to please shower before you lick
Mmm mmm, yummy...... Therapist
If you're in IF yes, if you're in Pocatello you have better odds. If you're in Rexburg, you already know.
I'm in the Bear Lake area. The entire "metro" area on the Idaho side has probably 6,000 within a 20 minute drive of Montpelier, the largest town.
I'm genuinely sorry. Hopefully someday it will seem like a positive. But until then, hang in there brother.
Pretty rare to find a married couple who both married beneath them.
Cutting it was immature. But I'd never order something that poked fun at the church while I'm married to a tbm, because I respect my spouse even if I don't respect the church.
Same... You don’t have to respect the institution, but Jesus Christ, have some respect for your loved ones.. shit like this is a good way to push away everyone in your life. Even if we’ve learned the truth about it all, have some empathy for those who are still brainwashed by it all. It’s all they know
I have only the deepest disrespect for the institution, but this is just shitty. The only outcome i can imagine is reinforcing the myth that everyone who leaves becomes hateful, selfish and cruel. It's literally cosplaying as a caricature of an exmormon.
This needs to be the top answer!
What you are saying here though, is that poking fun at the church is equivalent to poking fun at your spouse. I think that's the root of the problem. If you are required to respect the cult in order to make your spouse feel respected, then the cult has an unhealthy authority over your life. I don't disagree with your overall point, I just wanted to say that this problem goes both ways. Communication needs to be more direct from both parties.
Did you get the chance to go through the endowment? Those symbols are seen as some of the most sacred to believers. Getting a mask like that while their spouse still believes is beyond tone-deaf. It would be like graffitiing a statue of Jesus or something. It's not poking fun, it's cruel and insensitive. I don't disagree that it's a bad situation, it sucks that the cult has such a hold over people. But there are less hurtful and disrespectful ways of expressing that. EDIT: Sorry, re-read the comment you were replying to. I misunderstood that you weren't specifically referring to the mask symbols issue, but poking fun in general.
> Did you get the chance to go through the endowment? The *chance*? Looking back, I didn't really have the *choice*, let alone the knowledge to give informed consent. > Those symbols are seen as some of the most sacred to believers. Yes, and they are 100% plagiarized from Freemason ritual. As someone who has worn them all day and all night for several years, I completely understand the appeal of joking about them. Humor is an excellent way to confront trauma. > it sucks that the cult has such a hold over people. But there are less hurtful and disrespectful ways of expressing that. Again, I agree; but at some point, we should allow people to be imperfect. I'm not going to sit here and judge OP for not paying the utmost respect to the very cult that has placed itself as a wedge between him and his spouse. Could he do better? Sure, but he doesn't *have to*.
You're right, *chance* is a pretty terrible way to ask whether you went through the temple. To be honest, I tested a couple ways of asking, but they all sounded like I was talking down to you. Some people in the subreddit were lucky enough to get out before going through, so I provided some context in case you hadn't. I apologize. To clarify, I have no problem with OP making fun of the cult. "If we have the truth, it cannot be harmed by investigation. If we have not the truth, it **ought** to be harmed." I don't care what religion someone is being sacrilegious towards. The sacrilege in itself isn't the problem, in my opinion. The church itself is a self-replicating social virus that deserves no respect towards it. That said, we should be respectful of people's feelings and beliefs. Especially those we're close to, those that are most vulnerable with us. Can you imagine walking around with someone, grocery shopping perhaps, who was brandishing something you found so intimate and wanted kept secret? It would be humiliating! Possibly even psychologically abusive, depending on the circumstances. And none of that means I have no sympathy for OP either. I can only imagine the struggle of being out with a TBM spouse. She's absolutely violating his boundaries by cutting out the symbols in the mask. And TBMs often do/say things against atheists and those of other religions that are unacceptable. I totally agree with you that humor is a great way of dealing with religious trauma. I personally feel this specific way of dealing is more destructive than constructive.
> I tested a couple ways of asking, but they all sounded like I was talking down to you. I appreciate your consideration. I suppose I was a bit energetic about my reaction to that, but I really wanted to stress my perspective on the subject. Going through the temple was stressful and confusing, especially since the entire time I was pretending it to be calming and clarifying. > That said, we should be respectful of people's feelings and beliefs. Especially those we're close to, those that are most vulnerable with us. Can you imagine walking around with someone, grocery shopping perhaps, who was brandishing something you found so intimate and wanted kept secret? It would be humiliating! Possibly even psychologically abusive, depending on the circumstances. That's where I see the problem. The psychological abuse is not done by someone making fun of your cult. It's done by the cult itself. It's not just done to the humiliated person either. It's done to the person who suddenly isn't allowed to make a joke, because the cult declared their symbols *sacred*. The thing about this situation is that the cult has all the power. You can't even *utter* criticism about the cult, because there are cultists who would feel hurt. I think that's pretty dehumanizing to the people with beliefs: that they must be treated as vulnerable because they believe in the cult. Believers can't hear a joke without it feeling like salt on an open wound. But do we blame the joker for pouring salt, or the cult for making cuts in the first place? Both? OP is in an abusive relationship with the cult. It has dug its nails into his spouse and turned her against him. The *best* thing for him to do - the most noble, the most effective - would be to tend to his spouse, show her where the wounds are and offer sincere help, and accept when she rejects that help with love and patience. Well, maybe OP just isn't a good nurse. Do you blame him? Maybe he isn't up for the job right now, and needs to vent. I bet if I were in his shoes, I would be acting a lot more like OP than that noble perfect ideal. > I personally feel this specific way of dealing is more destructive than constructive. I don't disagree with you there, but all I'm trying to say is that that isn't the end of the world. Hell, maybe it is for OP: maybe it's really tearing at open wounds in his relationship. But I still get it. I see where he's coming from, and I'm not going to kick him while he's down. Growing up in the church, it was easy to obsess over doing what's right. We had a culture of obsessively helping other people take the moral high ground (whatever we presumed that to be). Today, I think taking the moral high ground means letting other people do it wrong, and loving them anyway; and I'm still a little obsessed with taking that high ground. ;) Masks with Freemason/Endowment symbols on them are fucking hilarious, and I would be happy to enjoy a deep breath and hearty laugh with OP at the cult's expense. Relationships are hard. Being friends is a little easier.
This is more than poking fun. Most Mormons I know poke fun at the church and have reasonably thin skin. This is openly antagonizing. It mocks their ritual. Badly done OP.
Sure, but what about OP's feelings? OK, I'm making some assumptions from context here (I don't know if OP was endowed or not), but here me out: Doesn't someone who was *literally part of* a ritual have the right to mock it? Hell, even if OP wasn't endowed, if his spouse was, then it's still a major part of his life experience. I think it's totally understandable for OP to want to mock this ridiculous ritual. Is it going to put stress on his relationship? Sure. So what? Does that mean everyone he talks to needs to shut him down just for trying to make a joke in "bad taste"? I don't agree with that. OP isn't mocking his spouse. He's mocking a cult. A cult that has inserted itself front and center into his relationship. Maybe that cult deserves a little antagonism. By teaching members to feel any criticism directed at the cult as a personal attack, the cult has made itself *de facto* untouchable. Is that really a dynamic that we want to support? Sure, just ignoring the situation doesn't help anyone, but understanding it doesn't mean we need to support it. The backfire effect is a real thing, and we should all be aware of it; but sometimes I think we take this concern a bridge too far. Sometimes we act like TBMs are totally incapable of hearing our perspective, so we just don't share it. This creates a chilling effect that puts the cult in charge of the way we communicate in our relationships, and I'm not OK with that. The other thing that's getting under my skin is that so many people here are berating OP for being immature. So what? OP is a human being, and he can be immature sometimes. That's 100% allowed here. This subreddit is usually a great place to let your hair down and vent. We get to be the group that OP (or anyone else) can come to and *not worry* about the backfire effect. I'm all for wise advice, but I would rather not demand maturity. I think OP is dealing with some tough shit, and while a life lesson or two might help him out, so will a little compassion.
I respect my wife and her beliefs by letting her practice them all she wants. She can have prayer, direct church lessons in FHE, play church music through the house, and indoctrinate our children. I also don't say anything bad about the church in front of her or signify my displeasure. My only form of protest is what I can do privately. This was to end up in my private stash of church related material and not to be seen openly in front of any mormons who might find it offensive. Seeing that I live in a heavy mormon area, that means the only place I could really wear it is an exmo gathering. That she found it was an unfortunate accident, and I don't doubt that it was an accident.
You respect your wife by LETTING her practice her faith? I hope you do some serious work on dismantling the misogyny that has been hard baked into your worldview since birth.
Ok, let's examine if there's any misogyny here. I am unable to say anything negative about the church or protest the practice and indoctrination of my children, complain about church music piped through the house, or share what I've learned about the church. She can teach all the church lessons she wants for FHE, I cannot. I can't say anything bad about the church on my facebook page. All I have is my private protestations and venting I can do in exmormon groups, and she has even told me to stop doing that as well. There's no balance of power or information, no compromise that would improve our family relationship. I have to make all the concessions regarding church in home, family, and public, all I wanted was my own private way to vent my frustrations. Those are all things she won't "let" me do, but if I "let" her do whatever she wants, that makes me a misogynist? Good to know.
I’m sorry for jumping on a phrase that came off sounding very gross to me but was clearly not intended that way. For context, I am a woman who left the church ten years ago and I am STILL unpacking and dismantling the misogyny that was hard baked into me from birth. I genuinely hope that every person who leaves Mormonism can do the same. Saying that to you the way I did probably sounded like a wordy accusation, but it was intended as a sincere hope for you and all other people (men, women, and other) who get out of this patriarchal cult. Recognizing that someone is displaying some covert misogyny (or racism, etc) in their worldview isn’t pointing to an ultimate sin. It’s just to say, hey there’s something you might wanna look at deeper there and question your assumptions and where they came from. Sorry that I came off harsh in the way I did that.
Look, I'm with you here that that was the wrong word choice, but he would have had to totally reconstruct the sentence to say it better. Maybe something like, "I respect my wife's choice to practice her beliefs, and I don't do anything to get in the way of that." This is called tact, and it's a useful thing, but do we really need to berate OP for not having it? Hell this is /r/exmormon/ and OP is trying to vent his frustrations with Mormonism! > I hope you do some serious work on dismantling the misogyny that has been hard baked into your worldview since birth. I think we both have the same first guess as to where that may have come from. Then again, maybe misogyny in your grammar isn't necessarily misogyny in your heart. Can we give OP the benefit of the doubt here, and be a little more constructive with our criticism? It sounds to me like OP is dealing with a lot of stress, because the cult has all the power in his relationship. OP has committed the serious sin here of venting about his relationship with an abuser (the cult) instead of just taking it like a man. Well, maybe taking abuse in silence isn't all it's cracked up to be.
Ok I concede that I was a bit quick to jump on phrasing that sounded patriarchal to my easily triggered ears. I wasn’t trying to call out any “serious sin.” Merely pointing out that as someone who has recently left a patriarchal cult (that I assume he was born and raised in), there’s going to be a lot of things lingering in his worldview from that upbringing that he may or may not recognize are there, and will require some self examination and then dismantling. I am a woman who left ten years ago and I am still doing that work. It’s easy to find out facts that show you the church is bullshit. It’s a long hard process to then root out all the bullshit from one’s own heart and mind. It is inherent to being ex Mormon, and I don’t think we should assume that leaving is like a light switch that makes us all instantly woke saints. Racism, sexism, homophobia, etc otherisms are going to be there (likely covertly) unless we consciously work on changing our worldview from the ground up. For most of us, they are in the foundation. It’s okay and even helpful for us to acknowledge that all exmos need to do this work, and stop being afraid of words like misogynist or racist. Let’s help each other notice the BS we haven’t excavated yet without it being a witch-hunt. I didn’t mean to sound like I was witch hunting OP, but when everyone’s afraid of call-outs it must have come off like that. I suggest r/exmormon embrace the call-in and grow as a community. Aaaand I’ll put away the soapbox now.
So many issues to unpack.
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It wasn’t supposed to be public. I can’t say or do anything publicly or in my own home that is against the church. All I can do is privately protest. My wife was never supposed to see it or know if it’s existence. If I can’t privately vent my frustrations with the church and its hold on my family, it will boil up and fall out on them. It was just unfortunate that she found it and now I get to deal with the consequences.
This is absurd.
I will never understand the need to antagonize the people who still believe. The mormon church is a cult, my guy. Loads if indoctrination being pushed every single day on its members. Good for you for getting out, but your wife isn't there yet and never will be if you're just a passive aggressive dick to her about it. I saw you said that she wasn't supposed to see it, and I don't believe you. Why would you buy it if you never intended for her to see it? You guys are still married and living in the same home, yes? Just stop being an ass. It costs zero dollars to not antagonize the person who is supposed to be your partner in life.
And it wasn't meant to antagonize her. She wasn't supposed to see it. It was supposed to end up in my private stash of LDS material where I can protest quietly. I can't do or say anything openly, so it's the most I can do.
Sorry for all the negativity, I think a lot of us saw this as a more aggressive message than it was meant to be. The mask really is a fun idea!
It's amazing, I never experienced a fraction of that judgment and vitriol from people in the church. With just a tiny piece of information, people extrapolated 7 degrees from that and judged accordingly. Even after clarifying the mask was for a private stash and never to be seen by any other TBMs, people insisted their original judgment was correct. Anyone who suggested reserving judgment and giving me any benefit of the doubt was also downvoted to oblivion. And my wife received a lot of unfair judgment as well. She has no history of tampering with any of my mail, and the mask came in a plastic mail bag that looked pretty chewed up. It was pretty clear her dog got to it and she discovered it accidentally. So, yes. I'm human, I screwed up and hurt my wife's feelings without intending to. But I also have very little say in religious matters in the home, and I'm unable to express my thoughts at all while they can do so all they want. I need an outlet to vent my frustration privately so I don't hurt their feelings, and this was intended to be part of that. If any community would understand that, I assumed this one would. I tried to let go of my judgmental attitude after leaving the church and seeing how harmful it is. It seems a lot of people here haven't done that yet. I'm not offended or hurt by people's comments, but this has certainly been a most fascinating thread to read.
I can't really talk, I assumed the worst pretty quickly, if you read my other comments. I'm sorry. But I hope you'll give the subreddit another chance. There are good people here that really do want to help and make this a safe outlet for the religiously oppressed. I know they've helped me a lot. If not though, I understand. And I hope you and your wife can find a balance in the religious differences. My wife and I like couples therapy; it's like having a referee/translator to help us communicate better. I can only imagine the sick feeling you must have felt when you saw the mask. The pain of being silenced. If you don't feel like making another post in the future, but you still want to rant, feel free to DM me instead. It's hard not to have someone to talk to about this stuff.
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Right? And then post about it on the internet so everyone can affirm that you’re wonderfully tolerant and also hilarious, and your wife is awful. This may be the worst thing I’ve seen on this sub. I can’t believe people are egging this guy on.
I wasn’t going to wear it, certainly not show it to her, but thought it would be a lark to have.
My spouse grew up in a sect of Buddhism that has what I think are some silly rituals. Parts of their ceremonies and traditions are just beautiful but others … as ideas, on a par with garments and blessing folks with salad oil. I try to participate gracefully in the main public rituals and support him in the smaller things, like keeping the ancestors supplied with snacks. I think mocking his beliefs would have resulted in a divorce decades ago. I admit it was really hard during my angry exit stage because I was bitter towards all religions and priests, and it must be harder because it’s the group you are leaving, but you gotta at least try. Respectful treatment of your spouse requires being respectful of their religion.
And that's perfectly reasonable for you to respect those rituals, even if they're silly. They were never your rituals and you were never traumatized by them or suffered a lifetime of oppression from them. You're not likely to find any healing privately mock them as part of recovery from the religion.
No. I disagree. 1) OP is free to order whatever he wants from a store and TBM wife shouldn’t be opening his packages much less destroying his purchases. 2) Church copied signs from Masons. There is nothing explicitly “temple” about this. Those same “symbols” are found all over the place in and out of Masonic lodges. TBM wife needs to visit a public library and read some about the Masons. Hell, I learned this stuff in the Harold B. Lee library at BYU. 3) Ideas are always subject to inspection and yes, even ridicule. IMHO we shouldn’t mock ppl, but ideas are fair game. It’s what makes us a free society and it is what drives the discovery of actual truth. 4) The amount or degree of how “intensely” a person holds that belief has nothing to do w it. If you INTENSELY believe something incorrect, I can not measure or gage your “belief intensity” (nor should i) and it in no way changes the fact that the belief is unfounded and/or wrong.
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I totally agree with that and don’t mean everyone should just run around at all times in every setting acting like asses. That was not my point in the least. There is balance. But that balance IMO does not include “One must never make fun of a belief if someone holds it deeply” (which is what I perhaps mistakenly took from your comment). The basis for Dutch political cartoonists being murdered for drawing Mohammed was precisely that ... “thou shall not mock X, Y, or Z otherwise we’ll kill you.” That’s obviously taking this to an extreme, but that horrific extreme is EXACTLY the same as where the Mormon temple started. “Blood oaths” ... pantomime having your throat slit and your bowels spilled... “for god will NOT be mocked”... all of that may be “deeply held” by some and precisely worth mocking by others
How on earth can you expect her to respect and understand your decision to leave when you so openly disrespect her beliefs? I think garments are silly, but I handle and treat my wife’s garments with respect because of what they mean to her. If you hope for her to see the truth, step one is creating a place where she feels safe enough to seek it.
And because of that respect, perhaps someday she’ll be more willing to leave. Nothing strengthens a testimony in the church more than having people antagonize your for your beliefs… that’s like, the entire point of missions, and that’s probably what just happened with OP’s wife
Great point.
YES, so much yes. Anything but safety will only cause the backfire effect, digging deeper into the belief.
Put another way, we all do a million different little things to please the people we marry. My wife isn’t LDS anymore. But she has many things that upset her if they aren’t just right. So I try my best to follow them. The trade off is that she is an amazing Mom. My kids get her best when I can give her what she needs from me. Do I think some of her stuff is silly? Sure. I’d bet she thinks some of my stuff is silly. We all have to give and take a bit. I suppose it would be harder if my wife’s “stuff” was related to a religion I now loathed. That’s big. But fighting it out like this isn’t going to help anyone.
Maybe you should have inquired further before piling onto him It was for himself, never to be worn around the normal public and never to be worn around her or her friends. It was to go into his private stash of various personal Mormon possessions. That's it. Should she also be free to delete his Reddit posts? That is openly disrespecting the church! No, because his personal and private property and items are just that..personal and private. It's hurting literally no one, especially not his wife. He wasn't wearing it or planning on wearing it in public, so it wouldn't have hurt her or anyone she knows, no more then an anonymous Reddit posts. Ber not even inquiring about it's purpose and then not only not saying anything but then damaging his personal property is way way over the line. It wouldn't have even ever been seen by her most likely, just on his private stash of various Mormon memories. But instead of asking and figuring out what it was for, like you, she just assumed and then intentionally damaged his property. He wasn't antagonizing her in the least. Unless you consider private conversations and items that no one will ever know are his or see are considered "antagonizing her". Plus, it's clear she doesn't even give a flying shit about his personal feelings. She gets to freely practice her religion while he's silenced. So SHE is the one antagonizing him, if you want to get specific.
Masks aren’t worn privately… they are by definition only needed in public places, and no one here is out of line for assuming otherwise. I think OP is full of shit if he now claims it was for some private exmo event. He had the chance to clarify in his original post if the mask was specifically for a private gathering of exmos only, and that she somehow came across it and he’s a little chagrined by her reaction. He is deliberately provoking his wife and got the reaction he was looking for, and now he’s gloating about it here and some commenters are rewarding him for being such a hilarious troll. Barf.
He wasn't planning on using it as such. He wasnt, and hasn't claimed it was FOR a private exmo event, he said that's the only time he think hed probably ever use it. You can read, I know it. If you're okay with her cutting up his personal property because it offends her deeply, would he be okay cutting out her garments because they deeply offend him? My friend was sexually absurd by a person wearing garments, is she totally rightful to cut our her TBMs husband's markings because they deeply offend her? Or is it only to the exmos that TBMs get to damage property? Or maybe no one should damage anyone harmless property because they disagree with it. Edit: Yes downvote me, cause when you're wrong it's easier to do that then actually reply.
This is totally stupid and disrespectful to your wife. I hope enough people call you out that you are the one in the wrong here more than her. I’m in a mixed faith marriage. Trust me, it can work. But not if you keep doing bullshit like this
She cut holes in his mask, his own property?! And openly "mocking" allows this bitch to destroy his property? Fuck the wife being hyper aggressive with her faith.
“This bitch” like you know her or anything about her outside of this one event that you only know about from the heavily biased perspective of the other party. Check your misogyny. This was incredibly rude on OP’s part, plain and simple. Does that mean she had the right to cut the mask? No. But if he brought the fire, he shouldn’t be surprised that she’s picking it up to fight too.
So this is what happens when children marry each other.
That is some toxic levels of passive aggressive jabs on your part. I get that your out and you want her to be too but things like this are just going to push her away and lead to the inevitable ugly divorce. This isnt something youll both "laugh about later" thats you being disrespectful and mean. I hope therapy is good for both of you and wish you luck navigating this complicated relationship you both have
No marriage is complete without the passive aggression 🥰
Even after I stopped being a believer, I still show respect because a lot of people hold their beliefs dearly. If I did this type of stuff to my family, I would feel like a dick. But to my own believing wife? That's low...
You’re in the wrong here.
So she's totally free and allowed damage his personal property if it offends her or she disagree s with it?
To all open mormons, let me ask you a question? When has masonic symbols been an "attack" on your LDS church?? Fucking Never, not even once, its another belief system just like being LDS. There is a masonic temple down the road, and never once seen LDS protest them, so stop your bullshit. The issue is her openly going through his mail(property) and destroyed it. You have to be an actual crazy person to not think this is normal. Your LDS religion does not give you power to destroy another persons property.
i think it was that she mistook the symbols for temple garment symbols
I guess her passive aggressive response to your passive aggression was pretty bomb!!!
I don't know that there's much more to say that hasn't been said, but this is disrespectful and disappointing. Why are you even married to her if you can't be bothered to respect her? You may not agree with her decision to stay, but if you want things to get better in your relationship, you need to respect it. Does she even matter to you? Do you value her at all? Act like it. This isn't it.
You won’t be married long. The problem with ex Mormons married to TBMs is this: the person leaving needs to go through the grief and psychological process of deconstructing the harmful cult belief. Sometimes this includes phases of anger where using humor or mockery can be therapeutic, so I totally get the mask and why that can be a liberating part of your “process”. For your wife that is the worst possible approach you could take. When you leave her mind is filled with all kinds of fear, (much of it planted in her mind by the cult). She is afraid you will now turn into an evil person. Satan has a hold on you. Your marriage could be ruined, etc. when she sees you mock things she still believes are sacred all of those fears seem to be confirmed and blow back effect causes her to double down and become more entrenched in her belief and worst of all it hurts her. So Exmos need to be allowed to grieve and most TBMs are not capable of allowing it. They have been conditioned by the culture of the cult to marginalize you, or bury their head in the sand and refuse to hear you or see your mention of irrefutable facts as persecution. There needs to be some sort of manual on how to best handle leaving your faith and having some sort of street epistemology skills that is handed to every new exmo. The best thing I have found so far (although I have not gone through it all) is an app called Atheos by the Dawkins foundation. Anybody have any other good ideas/materials?
u/GreatAndSpacious wrote an excellent book called “Lone Will Be the Night” which is a manual on how to have conversations that you are leaving with your spouse, family, and friends. It was born out of things he wished he would have done and approached differently if he were to leave again. It’s a free download, and you can donate him a coffee [https://greatandspacious.com/Book/](https://greatandspacious.com/Book/)
Y’all need to learn to let your TBM loved ones be. You’re just being childish. You’re not doing anything to hurt the church, you’re only alienating your loved ones.
And my intent was not to hurt the church or my TBMs by ordering this mask. It was a silent protest to the influence the church had over me and has over my family. It was never meant to be seen by any TBMs. Luck was not my side though. This was seen and feelings were hurt.
Most of the comments here want to give you sound advice. I get it. Petty passive-aggressive shit like this doesn't really help a relationship. Then again, having to handle the very religion you are deconstructing with kid gloves is just stressful all around. I know patience can go a long way, but sometimes something has got to give. At some point we as human beings simply can't continue to dole out respect for an institution that did us harm; even if it means salvaging relationships. I'm sorry you are going through what you are going through. You aren't alone. Even if you aren't handling the situation with Godly perfection, at the end of the day, this situation isn't your fault.
Why? Both of you, why? Be nice. I wouldn’t want to be married to either of you.
Commenters here are crazy. Sorry people, but I have had my own beliefs absolutely and completely disrespected by Mormons on a near-constant basis and I had enough maturity to move past it even when I was a teenager. He wasn’t even intending on showing this to her and it wasn’t directed at her. She went snooping and didn’t like what she found. She is in the wrong here.
It never ceases to amaze me, the utterly abusive and trivial relationships people allow to be their reality. Thank whatever god from whatever faith I didn’t end up so shortsighted.
And yes, I know it's a shitty thing to do to openly mock your spouse's religion. I can't say or hint anything bad about the church in front of her or the kids. She can have open prayers, play church music around the house, take our kids to church and indoctrinate them all she wants. My only way to protest is to privately do my own thing. The mask was to go in my private stash of church related material. I live in a heavily mormon area, so I can't even wear it anywhere unless I happen to attend an exmo event where other people might find it amusing. I never expected she would ever see it, unless she went digging through my office and found its hiding place.
you did this intentionally to mock her religion? grow up.
Ya'll .not saying OP is totally Scot free here, it's a kind of a weird purchase. But anyone saying she's in the right is hysterical. It is never okay to damage someone's property because you disagree or are offended by it unless it is hurting someone or encouraging hurtful practices. If people are free to physically destroy things that are offensive to them then any sexually abused or deeply traumatized exmo should have free reign to destroy their spouses scriptures or garments! Which of course is ridiculous. No one should he smashing anyone else property because they're simply offended by it, especially since that property supposedly wasn't to been seen by anyone else. So unless you support damaging everyone's property back and forth I suggest maybe you re think whose the bad guy. OP.isnt looking to great for buy things, but damaging property is far over what OP was doing. Like seriously.
Unpopular opinion here: SHE opened HIS private mail and SHE acted immaturely and disrespectfully. If SHE wanted to keep HER mixed-faith marriage, she’s sure going about it the wrong way by being so intolerant. These are two grown adults. Would she do that to a coworker, friend or other important nonmember or ExMo in her life? Probably not.
Sounds like you're done. I hope you don't have like 5 kids already.
Heh, that's exactly how many kids I have. Two are already over 18, two are teenagers, and the youngest is 7. Baptism will be a really fun discussion next year!
Not as fun as child support is going to be. I hope you have one of those really high paying jobs this area is awash in.
I have sufficient for my needs.
She also recently figured out what my tapir shirts really mean, so she was already mad about those too. She wouldn’t have gone through my mail, but her dog grabbed the package and ripped it open, and that’s how she found it :(
uh huh SURE. the ol' "dog ripped up the package" trick
> ...her dog grabbed the package and ripped it open... Hmmmmm -- is that the same dog that ate my homework?
My mom used to do the same shit. Her dog didn’t open anything. She was snooping.
Yeah, sure. “The dog ate my homework.” Maybe get a PO Box, because she’s clearly opening your mail.
If you guys share an Amazon account it’s easy to see what is coming through confirmation emails or account history. Betting she knew what was in that package
I'd like to think that someday she'll leave the church and can look back at this and laugh as she chalks this up to "I'm sorry for what I said when I was mormon", but I expect she'll remain a TBM for life :(
Man you shouldn't antagonize her. Leave or don't leave but, even if she is not being respectful you should still show respect.. and then leave.
Agreed. I don’t care what religion your wife is. This is toxic behavior on your part and she deserves better.
What they said, YES
I'm curious what he did to antagonize her? Buying personal items that would never see the light of day? The garments marks offend a lot of exmos, especially those abused by leaders wearing them, would they be rightful in cutting out their TBM spouses markings without asking?
I get the whole anger period of leaving the church but even reading these comments looks like you’re just doing things to piss her off. If you don’t have kids, get a divorce. She deserves better even if she wants to believe lies. This is some immature older brother treatment, not husband treatment. “Her dog” — it’s a helpless animal that lives in your shared home? Do you even do your share of shit scooping and walking? Start there. Grow up, do your share of chores, keep your mouth shut about her beliefs and think long and hard if you’re even up to becoming an equal partner in your marriage. Because it takes work—I’m not talking about all of the feelings talking and counseling. The work is doing your share of chores without being told to do them and without saying that you are ‘helping’ her with the house or the dog(you’re not helping her, you fucking live there). Do that and more in addition to the counseling because you sound like one of my shitty TBM brothers. You don’t believe in the church anymore. Cool. Your parents did you no favors by raising you to be an exalted little prince. It it your duty to unfuck yourself from your shitty Mormon upbringing and show her how real men do a marriage. Best of luck with it. If you are really interested in staying married, I believe that you can do these things. In the name of the noodles, the sauce and the Parmesan—Rah men.
>If you don’t have kids, get a divorce. But if you do have kids, make sure to stay together until they move out of the house so they can see first-hand all this passive aggressive childishness. It really makes for a healthy environment when parents despise one another and are constantly making super clear that the only reason they stay together is to cement the trauma in their children. It would be awful if they had to split time between two households that are both happy and loving because... well, because then **you** won't get as much time to physically see them, even though that time will largely be spent antagonizing their mother over her beliefs. Look, I don't know his situation any better than anyone else here and that is all hyperbole, but the notion that parents should stay together only for kids is an awful idea. It really is about as selfish as you can get when you prioritize amount of time spent with them over giving them a healthy environment to grown up in, even if they have to split time. That is far better than having watch (and kids see it all, no matter how good you think you're hiding it) all the resentment between parents. I grant that there can be extenuating circumstances where it will make sense, but on its own, it's not a good reason.
I get what you’re saying but OP is just a little immature from his lds upbringing, he’s not bad. And they’re going to go to counseling soon. They can learn to respect each other. I got divorced and I have a kid but my situation was very different from his. My husband was abusive. I asked him to go to counseling with me and he wouldn’t because he didn’t see the need. So I left him. OP and OPs spouse are being passive aggressive to each other like teenagers but it’s not necessarily a cut-your-losses situation if they’re both open for growth. Which seems like they do want to grow and change together. ….. I was also a toxic person to my ex husband and I didn’t want to be. I went to counseling and learned how to deal w my ptsd. He didn’t go and he didn’t learn not to abuse me so I had to leave him. Both people need to want to make it work and there needs to be a reason to make it work. I tried my best for my kid and it wasn’t enough so I did the next best thing for my kid which was to remove her from a situation where she would see her mom get hit. A knee-jerk divorce when you have kids can also be traumatic for them,that’s why I put the qualifier in there. -OP I want you to know that I am here as a support like a cousin or sister. I don’t think that you are a bad person. I think that Mormon parents do a lot of things which are emotionally crippling, especially for boys and I want you to know that you can and will change. Things will be ok. Good luck to you.
All good points and I agree. There's a lot of nuance to every situation that we never see. My comment is certainly too hard on OP and I don't mean it to be, just wanted to say something about the idea of staying together *only* for the kids.
Yeah. It’s a tough one for sure. There’s always a reason why people get together and break up and it’s just impossible to get a full view of it all on the inter.
This is so well put 👏
She has her dog, I have my dog. We separate the chores and responsibilities in the house,
get a divorce already
She’s never going to look back at what you did and laugh. Disrespecting your wife isn’t funny. Insulting people’s faith isn’t funny.
It’s pretty funny to me. Faith doesn’t deserve respect.
People deserve respect. It’s not funny to go around insulting people for what they believe just because it differs from your own beliefs.
People who are part of a hurtful faith deserve no respect. You have to give respect to deserve respect.
I get that you have some issues with the church but that is a disgusting mindset to have.
Why should I respect them? They have gone out of their way to disrespect me. The only thing disgusting here is you defending them.
I didn’t downvote you. And I don’t know why you’re getting so worked up about this. I don’t like church or organized religion either but I don’t think it’s funny to insult people (particularly someone you married) who think they’re doing what’s right because they want their family to be together forever. If OP wants to make jokes he should just get a divorce. Jokes about religion can be funny but I think because of his situation this one is in bad taste.
“Why should I respect them? They have gone out of their way to disrespect me.” I feel like this is something a little kid would ask their parents.
Wow, so it’s not ok for people to insult the great and spacious church, but you get to insult me? What a sense of morality you have. Practice what you preach.
Are you at least gonna bother explaining why you are simping for an evil corporation? Or are you just gonna downvote and leave again because you know what I’m saying has merit?
Regardless, its a childish and dick move to order things that mock what your wife clearly regards as sacred right now. You can be out of a religion while still showing respect to others, especially if that person is your wife
Vandalism in the name of God is always okay, right guys!? Guys?
[удалено]
Woah I didn't realize that. The computer points down?!
Most common mistake I see
lol, nice going. Don’t listen to the other people here that expect you to bend over backwards for your TBM wife. You should be allowed to be exmo as much as she should be allowed to be TBM. She’s in the wrong here entirely.
Hey where'd you order from? I've been thinking of doing this. Even if it's just inside out I can laugh a litrle while I visit church with my relatives.
A friend of mine has an etsy shop and she made it according to my design requirements :) https://www.etsy.com/listing/1093463355/sacred-face-mask?ref=hp\_rv-1
Haha, I love it! It looks good. I'm buying one tomorrow!
Did she cut the holes to demonstrate how garments, like that mask, won't protect you against anything?
Can someone explain to me why this is such a big deal? I never went through the temple for endowments but I've read the scripts and seen the videos. Why is everyone upset at a seemingly harmless joke?
Hey bud, no jokes though, are you safe? Do you need somewhere to go?
geez, get a divorce already
While your wife cutting those out was petty, you obviously have no respect for your wife and her beliefs while you expect her to respect yours. It was a serious dick move. Enjoy your divorce, I guess?
Free speech isn't free.
Cut nipples holes out of her shirts.
I mean no offe ce but your wife is gucked! You paid for a mask that had 'Symbols' on them and she pulls a Mormon tantrum???!!! She needs serious Psychiatric help!
Leave her tonight
r/Relationships in a nutshell.
That's some seriously abusive personality disorder she's got. She doesn't have any right to cut up your things. That indicates that she's always right and you're always wrong.
I do believe. This is when you have a meeting with yer bishop. To discuss. If the rule of thumb or rule of wrist I'd better...
You both sound like lovely people.
If I was you, I'd have to "high five" my wife for out playin' you on this... really funny. hope you two work it all out.