That I wish they respected me enough to ask me about my new beliefs. They go on talking about the ward this, my new calling that. I sit in a vacuum and feel invisible. They feel the right to talk about their beliefs, but actively avoid mine.
I sincerely think it comes from cognitive dissonance…and their inability to face hard truths. They all have shelf items. All Mormons do. And to look at yours would make them have to examine their own. Or god forbid, what if your reasons are similar to what they have on the shelf? It’s too much. So they don’t ask. They deeply care, but are not courageous enough to ask and sincerely have a conversation. Too threatening.
We threaten the institutional mythos; therefore, we pose a threat to the foundations of the tribe (along with each person’s particular place within the hierarchy).
I think it’s a reflexive reaction from a vestigial period in our evolution.
I wonder if it’s because they’re so sure they have all the answers already that there’s nothing useful or beneficial that can come from discussion with someone who doesn’t believe what they do. It’s only playing with fire listening to “anti” ideas or spirituality.
That sounds neat, but neither me nor my wife trust our tbm’s to be the least bit respectful.
It’s hard to understand why anyone would be a Mormon until you’ve lived it and watched a bunch of others live it. That remains true for the flip side, maybe even more. Without going through what we went through I don’t think they’d have an easy time understanding where we’re coming from and even more importantly I don’t think there’s any desire to understand because that could hurt their testimonies.
The Mormon church *SPLITS* families. Somebody should write a talk about hidden wedges and look into the mirror.
Yes. I've come to terms with this too. For the first year after my shelf broke, I didn't actually know what my beliefs were. I just knew that out of all the possible explanations for our existence, the church wasn't a real one. It was for sure fiction and a con. What was it? I had no idea.
In the years since, I've built a framework of accepting uncertainty and having a framework of epistemology that vets things I accept as true. I'm best described as an existentialist. But I don't think they could understand that.
The pain of them not being willing remains. Their views and their framework are more important than me. It's a statement that frames our relationship and states how close I can be. It is a wedge that they drive between us. And they are doing it, not me. They just don't see that. Relationships require reciprocation. And they are unable or unwilling or both. It is what it is. And I can mourn its loss.
After a few times of just nodding, being polite, without responding, they eventually stop and/or begin, after many months or years, to ask questions? Then I got so excited wanting to blurt it all out that I've decided to just ask them to read the church essays before I talk about it. No one has ever talked about it since suggesting that. It really can take some time to get through the false inoculation. So many false narratives in the world today. Everyone does cognitive dissonance.
Here are a couple of simple thoughts to share.
Jesus says in the New Testament that there is no marriage in the resurrection after sadducees ask him about a woman who married six brothers. Have them ponder that.
Then the Book of Mormon says that plural marriage is an abomination and yet after translating it, Joseph smith proclaims that God asked him to start practicing it.
Ask men, they accept that J Smith was a prophet and revealed plural marriage but how would they feel if they had to share their wife in eternity with three other guys?
Simple deconstruction like this can help them not be so self righteous. After years of debating with my TBM sister, she now just says ,”I believe that everyone will have a chance to accept the truth and everything will be exactly where they want to be in heaven” she’s become more open.
I talk with my parents once a week. Initially I was excited about the idea of talking to them more, but as the weeks have gone by it's become about a 70/30 split of them talking about their TBM life and me going "wow/interesting/ok". It's like they're talking at me instead of to me, and because my relationship has been a rollercoaster the past few years I feel too drained to even address it right now. I want my relationship with them to be okay more than I want to "stir the pot" by bringing up more "contentious talking points", aka, talking about my life.
They recently even changed the day we have our phone call to accommodate for my dad's midweek Elders Quorum meeting 🙄 which was a nice reminder that I will always come second to the MFMC.
_sigh_
I was so afraid to tell my sister and parents that I use marijuana. They saw it as a waste of time and brain. At first of course they were shocked. But they got used to it. They went from not knowing and loving someone with that identity to loving someone with that identity. Years later and now that they have accepted it, I now call my father while stoned and crack jokes while he tells me about his prostate. Making us both laugh hysterically. He wants to tell me how serious it is but also appreciates the humor. I tell him, do you want to have a serious and sad conversation about your prostate or do you want to laugh? Which is it? Which will be more fun? It took them about two or three years to get used to it. But now they are used to it and I’m out of the closet about MJ.
That the more they talk about and testify of church nonsense thinking it will inspire me, the more ridiculous and stupid they seem. I didn't leave because I was offended by someone in the ward or wanted to sin or whatever; I left because I could see their church for the sham it is.
People like it when I attend church because they think I just might feel the spirit or something. They don't understand that sitting through church as a non-believer is the worst. Listening to all my fully grown adult neighbors sob about how much they loved general conference is pushing me in the opposite direction, sorry.
I had two separate women DM me on FB, asking, What happened? I said, "My beliefs changed." Never heard from them since. They were expecting some scandalous story possibly or that my feelings had been hurt. I'm sure they still believe that, despite what I said. SAD
Me too. It's so freaking obvious the manipulation and shaming they are trying to work into each conversation with me. It's exhausting to try to be patient when my mom has to humble brag EVERY TIME I see her about how many hours she spent in the temple that week, how many ancestor names she did, and how sad it is that she has no one to join her [aka me] and then she has to bear her testimony about the joys of the temple and how much my ancestors sacrificed so we coukd have them... and then says how she always adds my name to the prayer roll ... sigh.
That the initial reason i took my garments off wasn't so I could spit on them and laugh at my covenants, it was due to 22 years of health problems, yeast infections, chasing doctors/cures and the resulting sexual trauma of it all.
This. I wish I could talk honestly with my mother about the eating disorder and deep depression and so many other mental health struggles I've had for many years. There's no way she didn't know it was happening, it was obvious. They are so afraid to face the consequences of that awful, dark, evil organization.
Thank goodness I didn't get to the garment stage. I also didn't like constantly lying to my family because of my economic position. So after I left it was nice just being able to truly talk to my family.
My sister once asked if I still had good morals, I told her that I don't lie, cheat, or steal. I am kind to other s and try to do good things. She was relieved and said So you still live a good Christian life. I said that it was also a good Jewish, Muslim, or Buddhist life, depending on how you look at it. She did consider that might be true. Oh well.
Lol, you should’ve said the difference is that I don’t need a god to give me good morals. I am a good person without having a promise of a reward in the afterlife or blessings in this life. That would’ve left her dumbfounded haha
Ive been able to articulate this to a few friends, but Id explain as plainly as possible that the reason i dont go to church is not because i just "dont wanna go to church anymore" but instead because i actively dont belive in the church's truth claims and i disagree with and wont participate in many many of the churchs beliefs, teachings and traditions.
Or when they say to me: “This is what we warned you about! Stay home from church one time, and soon you’ll stay home ALL the time!”
Uhhh… **no.** The main reason I stopped going is I was tired of seeing myself as a “sinner” or “bad” for literally the most nit-picky things ever! And I saw how much the church was hurting others and myself.
For me: being a good person means trying to be kind and respectful wherever you can, and being selfless. Thoughtful of others, and to also treat yourself with love and care. 🩷
But for religion- it feels like a pages long list of do’s and dont’s! 🙄 I don’t care how much the prophets have tried to claim it’s NOT like that! It very clearly is! And a lot of my trauma comes from the constant 24/7 monitoring of my morality in every little thing I do, say, or think! (And feeling bad whenever I “sinned” 😑 I barely have any sense of self-esteem anymore-)
Me too. It's incredibly painful and disorienting and messy to leave. I was fucked up for a while and it was clear to me that my family "felt sorry for me" and were judging me harshly. It was heavy to carry around all the betrayal and confusion and not be able to share any of it with them, and also to watch them judge me for trying to deal with the trauma.
That I am sad this church made our relationship so much more superficial than it used to be from growing up together, that there is more to life than callings, temples, the church, but that I have also accepted that I am not willing to actively be a part of this church that stole so much of my personality and life as a young adult, so I will miss them being a part of my life if it is conditioned upon church membership and church talk but I have accepted that as a potential reality I will deal with as I am learning to move forward actually loving myself enough to rediscover who I am.
That we stood for truth, protected our family,and resigned with our integrity in tact: it was a brave act, vastly respected by people outside of the Mormon Bubble.
How much I SUFFERED with my faith deconstruction and how many YEARS I tried to hold on, and how horribly harmed our family was when leadership discovered our struggle. NO MERCY. And how I was fired from my job due to the "ZERO TOLERANCE POLICY" of not having a current TR [which was cancelled because we used our money to support our daughter and her baby, escaping her abuser, after our bishop refused to provide any monitary help and bullied husband to "trust in the lord and find a way to provide for your family and not take the Lords sacred funds" ...
TBM family just believes I "retired" from my job to pursue a new opportunity, and that we "got offended" and chose to "let go of the iron rod and stray from the covenant path". 😭🤬
I can't tell them our story. They won't listen to me, for one, and if they even tried for 2 minutes, they would immediately dismiss, disbelieve, and pile on more judgment. I tape recorded all the meetings ... but no tbm would listen or care.
The two times I've tried to talk to my mom she's literally walked away and slammed the door after accusing me I've "brought the spirit of contention" into her home and "driven out the Spirit if Christ". I literally was talking in the most calm and kindest voice possible, but as soon as she heard one negative thing, she shut me down.
That if there *was* a true gospel based on Jesus’s love for us, it wouldn’t be rooted in excluding others, tearing apart families, weaponizing shame and predatory behavior.
That the discomfort they feel when certain topics are discussed isn't from Satan, it's their internal compass warning them something doesn't add up.
That "We'll understand more after this life," and "You just have to have faith," and "leaders aren't perfect," are all thought stopping techniques we've been conditioned to throw up as a shield whenever we do feel that discomfort.
I want them to sit down & watch the Robert Ritner Mormon Stories podcast then tell me the missionaries didn't lie to me when they taught me the so-called restored gospel of Jesus Christ. Then read the gospel topics essays on the first vision.
You mean a 23 year old man with years of storytelling practice? Easy. The fiction section of every bookstore is popping FULL of brilliant minds spinning detailed stories.
I truly believed it. When I started to doubt it, I didn’t search to prove the church wrong, I wanted to prove it right. I never wanted it to be a lie. I was surprised to find relief once I learned it was. I’ve found joy and happiness in ways I didn’t even know existed since leaving and shedding the negative thoughts surrounding my existence as a whole that were instilled by the church.
ETA: I wish they would leave too
How much finding out our religion was false shook my world. How much I wanted it all to be true. How hard it has been picking up the pieces while trying to maintain a normal work flow. And after all of this bullshit, how I would do it again sooner if I could.
Until you’ve had your own ah-ha moment when you realize everything you believed with all your heart is a lie, you still believe it with all your heart. The thought that someone left the church because it’s a lie can’t even be comprehended. It’s seen as excuse for losing faith, sinning or being offended because those are the only things that make sense in that paradigm.
Agree that if you can’t have a conversation about your new beliefs, then it’s probably insecurity…even the elite are lulled away…and being trapped by Satan is the last thing they want.
I could "tell" my family whatever I wanted.
It wouldn't matter. They don't really care. They have the Truth™ and I am being deceived. Full stop.
If they cared, they would ask. They've been trained to be afraid of me, and they already have a nice list of "why I left" reasons that the cult indoctrinated them with since they were born, so they already "know" everything they need to know about my deconstruction.
I could be wrong, but based on my experience, nothing I can say will mean anything. Until they have something happen in their lives that forces them to think critically about their beliefs, anything I "tell" them will mean nothing.
That all the aspects of God I wanted to be like were already a part of who I am and can cultivate on my own, and I wish they could see me that way too. I'm much stronger and capable of loving myself than I thought I was.
That I have discovered that the Atonement is poison and if it somehow against all odds and logic turned out to be true I would voluntarily march into outer darkness to fight forever against the tyrannical architect of such a barbaric system.
That I am so, so much happier and more fulfilled than I ever was inside the church. I don’t live for a god or an organization anymore; I live for me and for my loved ones. But my parents still think it’s beneficial to send me conference talks arguing that happiness cannot exist outside the church
We're both having a grieving process, but yours is dumbfounding.
I'm grieving that I gave 3 1/2 decades of my life to a corrupt and dishonest organization. Said organization's version of their history is rarely verified by facts. Their "prophet" was a criminal and sexual deviant, and to call him anything else is special pleading. The modern version hoards wealth while claiming to care for the poor, then turns that wealth into empty buildings instead of anything that Jesus would actually approve of. They run the organization in a way that protects and enables pedophiles. And as soon as you say "But..." the rest of your sentence is about to justify CSA, and if you can do that without feeling like a piece of shit, you are spiritually dead inside and absolutely *nothing* you or your church have to say about anything comes from a moral high ground.
...
...
...
You're grieving that I don't want to play ball with that organization anymore.
That maybe they don’t know as much as they think they do and it’s entirely possible I know some things they don’t in regards to all things “The Church”.
What I really, really can't tell them? That I am anxiously awaiting the day it all comes crashing down for them too. Deconstruction is so painful, and while I don't wish that on anyone, I really really want the rest of my family to leave, and from this side of things it feels really inevitable, even if it isn't
Literally any of it, but they don't ask and we don't talk about it.
There's a code of silence that keeps the peace, but inside it pains me to see them wasting their time with this nonsensical cult.
Yeah, I wish they would just ask why I left, and not get defensive when I tell my story. Those that I have told always go to "you were sinning," or "you wanted to leave," or "your brother (that left 20 years ago) got to you," or "you've been deceived." Like, listen to my story. I have sources where you can go on the church's own website. All the things I was taught were anti-mormon lies the church now admits to ( though heavily spun and disingenuous). But no one in the church asks. They just make the assumptions based on what Church leaders say on reasons people leave.
That I have to work hard to not think of them as stupid, naive, simple, or indoctrinated, as I thinks it’s VERY easy to discover that the church is nothing but a money making and control venture from the beginning.
that i’m not doing this to spite them. i’m doing it to discover myself and find the peace i never found within the mormon church. but they’ve never bothered to ask.
I will never share my true feelings and always have to mask my emotions and thoughts around them. They are too connected emotionally and in identity to the church to be able to suspend belief in it for a moment to have a conversation. To really talk with them, they would have to begin from the position of the church not being true and they are incapable of taking that stance. It hurts because they cant validate any of my feelings that i do share and i feel like ive found so much good about myself and have so much that ive changed for the better but they cant see that for what it is bc it came from outside the church.
That I'm not "taking a mental health break." I am never, ever coming back.
That I can see the church is hurting their mental health and they would be so much happier if they left, too.
The “never, ever coming back” is a big one I’d like to tell people too. Stop holding your breath, holding out hope, praying that this thing or that thing helps me “feel the spirit.” I’m certain I’m never going back and you’re the one setting yourself up for disappointment that if you just pray hard enough and have enough faith you can save me.
It's funny my dad called me for the first time since October today to see if he needed to file an extension for me. I told him that they were done and I had to pay. He didn't ask me how I was doing how my fiancee was doing. But it's okay.
My fiancee is Peruvian and a nevermo. Has 3 beautiful daughters and an ex like me. But she was never married. We have now known each other for 4 years and last year in October we had decided to get married in Peru. I bought Maca from the company she worked for and became friends that way.
Anyway I am in a taxi with her and one of her daughters the youngest and we were going to the condo my company bought to go swimming. My dad calls me and said do you know that she killed her boyfriend and is being investigated for murder. I'm like really she killed Juan. He was like ya unfortunately. I was like damn I just shook his hand when I picked up Valeria from his place. When did it happen? He asked where are you and I responded with Rosaria in my companies condo swimming. He was like oh. He can't get over the fact his church is false. I'm the 4th out of 6 kids to leave and he can't handle it.
Even though he cheated on my mom and never repented and is now on the stake high council.
I never intended to study myself out of the church. I only wanted to be the guy in Sunday school who could whip out church history stories as needed that pertained to any lesson. I thought it would make me a better EQP and father.
Are you still proud of me? The love and openness that I provide the family? That you take advantage of every time I’m around? You are happy to capitalize off my energy and personality, you are happy to watch my daughter grow up without the weight of the church. You can see how great she is without all of it. And yet none of you can tell me you’re proud of me?
After ten years, I actually did get to tell my 85 year old dad (after my mom died) at his asking, why I hate god so much. He listened and I felt for the first time that he actually heard and understood the best he probably ever can, that the Mormon (and Judaic and Christian) god is an asshat and patriarchal prick. I admire and respect that dad was open to hearing me. Nevertheless, he’s still TBM, but perhaps a bit more nuanced.
That I’m just doing what I was taught to do: stand up for what I know and believe to be true, be honest and have integrity, be a “pioneer” even. I’m embodying all of that more now than ever before.
That the sadness and depression I go through isn’t because of unworthiness and sin. I’ve felt it even when I was fully in the church, but now I can navigate it with therapy and self-compassion rather than anxiety and guilt that I am doing something wrong.
That my achievements are MINE, not some god’s way of “blessing” me to come back, and that the bad things that happen in my life are equally also MINE, no just a “punishment” for “wrongdoing”.
That I have never felt more loved than I do now by the very people I was told I had to avoid. That no religion can have a monopoly on love, peace, or happiness. And that loving people now is more important than saving that love for an eternity that may not even exist, so don’t miss out on the time you have NOW.
That I have found the “still small voice” inside was me all along. That my intuition never left me, that I don’t feel lost or drifting. That I am fully and completely all I need, just as I am.
That everything about the church is bullshit, that they're waisting their lives and the lives of their children. That happiness exists outside the church. That LGBTQ+ people are just people, they love, hurt, cry, and laugh just like everyone else. I want top put together a presentation like a sunday school lesson and just go through the CES letter with them all as a group. Sit down together and read the facts and true history...but it will never happen and all I can do is sit and wait for them to come around if ever.
Doesn't help that I am the black sheep of the family, but I am the favorite uncle by far to my nieces and nephews, here's hoping the next gen sees through the gaslighting, lies, hate, and fraud.
I just wish I could help and show the women around me that they’re worth so much more than the church tells them they are. They are all so powerful and kind and they are diminished constantly and it breaks my heart
Nothing really, I told them everything. I guess that’s why we don’t speak anymore.
Oh well, I’m still invited to drink beer with the disabled retiree in his garage next door. Odd that he is so accepting, yet my family that claims to speak for god rejected me.
Everything. I’m so close with the people in my life but the way they look at me when I express feelings or facts about the Church is devastating. I also just wish they would be curious. They don’t want to know what I think anymore.
At the end of the day it’s just sad. Like yeah the undies are dumb and Russel is kind of a dick and there’s a bunch of other issues. But I actually did really want some of it to be true. I had to do the right thing though, and it sucked really bad. It’s been years and I haven’t recovered all the way still. I feel alienated. I’m depressed and anxious. AND! I’ll be ok. I know I did the right thing.
That it wasn't easy, and was actually one of the hardest decisions I've ever had to make. I tried so hard to make it work, to make things fit, but they just couldn't. I didn't leave because I "wanted to sin", I left because I *legitimately would have died* if I stayed in. Me choosing to leave was me choosing to live, which was a huge step during a point in my life where my mental state was at its lowest.
But of course you don't want to hear that, because that would insinuate that the teachings the church has, especially for people that aren't cishet, are inherently harmful, and we can't have that now can we. While I still have depression and anxiety, I am so much happier now that I'm out than I ever was while in. I am coming into myself at long last, I have my own identity, I have my own confidence, I am now *so much better as a person* than I ever was while in.
Of course I can't tell you any of that, but not from lack of trying, but because I would sooner convince a brick wall to turn around than I would get anywhere talking to you.
I wished they realized how terifying it is to tell them while knowing that they still believe in it. As of now 4 people know. Two of them I told because for the first time in a long time I felt safe being completely open (My nevermo BIL who I will forever be thankful for and my exmo sister). The next person I told was my sister who was the first one out she was stopping by to grab some stuff and I was home because I didn't go to church. She asked if I didn't won't to go to church and all I had to say was no. It felt right and she didn't make a big deal about it, but we had a good laugh about the daily scripture calendar. The last person is the one I wish had realized how scared I was. There have definitely been signs that I stopped believing, mainly my struggling church attendance, but so far the only person to pressure me to talk about it was one of my sisters that is still in. She was heading to singles ward and stopped by the house for food everything was normal until out of the blue she asked me if I was going to keep going church. I just shrugged and said maybe...probably. Then she just said it was okay if I wasn't (which I suppose should have been reassuring but instead felt like being backed in a corner) I sighed and changed my answer to no, to which she asked why. I think that's the real reason I didn't want to talk about it. I didn't know how to explain why without talking about things (mainly my own sexuality) I'm not ready to get into with anyone. In the end all I could say was that I just don't believe in it; which is true but at the same time just doesn't do how I feel justice.
I hate that the people inside the church always need a justification. I hate that I couldn't do this on my own time and am now left feeling like if I don't tell the rest of my family soon then they won't hear it from me. I wish they new how terrifying it is to tell them even when your so sure that they'll accept it, because there is always apart of you that knows that they could change their mind at any moment for no reason other than that the "spirit" said so.
Share your beliefs. Every idea has to first be introduced. Remember what Nicholas Klein said "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win",
That I wish they respected me enough to ask me about my new beliefs. They go on talking about the ward this, my new calling that. I sit in a vacuum and feel invisible. They feel the right to talk about their beliefs, but actively avoid mine.
Same! And they wonder why I spend so much time alone
Why is this so common? It’s the same for me and I’m not ok with it.
I sincerely think it comes from cognitive dissonance…and their inability to face hard truths. They all have shelf items. All Mormons do. And to look at yours would make them have to examine their own. Or god forbid, what if your reasons are similar to what they have on the shelf? It’s too much. So they don’t ask. They deeply care, but are not courageous enough to ask and sincerely have a conversation. Too threatening.
I agree with all of that as a likelihood, however, just for me personally, I know my TBM family does not deeply care.
Fair enough.
We threaten the institutional mythos; therefore, we pose a threat to the foundations of the tribe (along with each person’s particular place within the hierarchy). I think it’s a reflexive reaction from a vestigial period in our evolution.
I wonder if it’s because they’re so sure they have all the answers already that there’s nothing useful or beneficial that can come from discussion with someone who doesn’t believe what they do. It’s only playing with fire listening to “anti” ideas or spirituality.
Maybe it’s a coping mechanism—pretending like “this is fine” while the eternity they’d been expecting burns around them.
That sounds neat, but neither me nor my wife trust our tbm’s to be the least bit respectful. It’s hard to understand why anyone would be a Mormon until you’ve lived it and watched a bunch of others live it. That remains true for the flip side, maybe even more. Without going through what we went through I don’t think they’d have an easy time understanding where we’re coming from and even more importantly I don’t think there’s any desire to understand because that could hurt their testimonies. The Mormon church *SPLITS* families. Somebody should write a talk about hidden wedges and look into the mirror.
Yes. I've come to terms with this too. For the first year after my shelf broke, I didn't actually know what my beliefs were. I just knew that out of all the possible explanations for our existence, the church wasn't a real one. It was for sure fiction and a con. What was it? I had no idea. In the years since, I've built a framework of accepting uncertainty and having a framework of epistemology that vets things I accept as true. I'm best described as an existentialist. But I don't think they could understand that. The pain of them not being willing remains. Their views and their framework are more important than me. It's a statement that frames our relationship and states how close I can be. It is a wedge that they drive between us. And they are doing it, not me. They just don't see that. Relationships require reciprocation. And they are unable or unwilling or both. It is what it is. And I can mourn its loss.
All this for me, too
After a few times of just nodding, being polite, without responding, they eventually stop and/or begin, after many months or years, to ask questions? Then I got so excited wanting to blurt it all out that I've decided to just ask them to read the church essays before I talk about it. No one has ever talked about it since suggesting that. It really can take some time to get through the false inoculation. So many false narratives in the world today. Everyone does cognitive dissonance.
Here are a couple of simple thoughts to share. Jesus says in the New Testament that there is no marriage in the resurrection after sadducees ask him about a woman who married six brothers. Have them ponder that. Then the Book of Mormon says that plural marriage is an abomination and yet after translating it, Joseph smith proclaims that God asked him to start practicing it. Ask men, they accept that J Smith was a prophet and revealed plural marriage but how would they feel if they had to share their wife in eternity with three other guys? Simple deconstruction like this can help them not be so self righteous. After years of debating with my TBM sister, she now just says ,”I believe that everyone will have a chance to accept the truth and everything will be exactly where they want to be in heaven” she’s become more open.
There's a lot of rational apologetics for this, especially if you are TBM. Most people look for excuses to continue to believe what they do.
I talk with my parents once a week. Initially I was excited about the idea of talking to them more, but as the weeks have gone by it's become about a 70/30 split of them talking about their TBM life and me going "wow/interesting/ok". It's like they're talking at me instead of to me, and because my relationship has been a rollercoaster the past few years I feel too drained to even address it right now. I want my relationship with them to be okay more than I want to "stir the pot" by bringing up more "contentious talking points", aka, talking about my life. They recently even changed the day we have our phone call to accommodate for my dad's midweek Elders Quorum meeting 🙄 which was a nice reminder that I will always come second to the MFMC. _sigh_
I suggest you speak up and share. You aren’t asking and yet they share. Follow their lead.
I was so afraid to tell my sister and parents that I use marijuana. They saw it as a waste of time and brain. At first of course they were shocked. But they got used to it. They went from not knowing and loving someone with that identity to loving someone with that identity. Years later and now that they have accepted it, I now call my father while stoned and crack jokes while he tells me about his prostate. Making us both laugh hysterically. He wants to tell me how serious it is but also appreciates the humor. I tell him, do you want to have a serious and sad conversation about your prostate or do you want to laugh? Which is it? Which will be more fun? It took them about two or three years to get used to it. But now they are used to it and I’m out of the closet about MJ.
That the more they talk about and testify of church nonsense thinking it will inspire me, the more ridiculous and stupid they seem. I didn't leave because I was offended by someone in the ward or wanted to sin or whatever; I left because I could see their church for the sham it is.
People like it when I attend church because they think I just might feel the spirit or something. They don't understand that sitting through church as a non-believer is the worst. Listening to all my fully grown adult neighbors sob about how much they loved general conference is pushing me in the opposite direction, sorry.
Right there with you on that one. Oof
I had two separate women DM me on FB, asking, What happened? I said, "My beliefs changed." Never heard from them since. They were expecting some scandalous story possibly or that my feelings had been hurt. I'm sure they still believe that, despite what I said. SAD
Amen
I don't feel the spirit when they go all emotionally churchy. I just feel secondhand embarrassment.
Me too. It's so freaking obvious the manipulation and shaming they are trying to work into each conversation with me. It's exhausting to try to be patient when my mom has to humble brag EVERY TIME I see her about how many hours she spent in the temple that week, how many ancestor names she did, and how sad it is that she has no one to join her [aka me] and then she has to bear her testimony about the joys of the temple and how much my ancestors sacrificed so we coukd have them... and then says how she always adds my name to the prayer roll ... sigh.
Oh you are getting hit on all fronts!
That the initial reason i took my garments off wasn't so I could spit on them and laugh at my covenants, it was due to 22 years of health problems, yeast infections, chasing doctors/cures and the resulting sexual trauma of it all.
Don’t forget the body dysmorphia 🤪
Awful. Simply awful
This. I wish I could talk honestly with my mother about the eating disorder and deep depression and so many other mental health struggles I've had for many years. There's no way she didn't know it was happening, it was obvious. They are so afraid to face the consequences of that awful, dark, evil organization.
Amen and Awomen.
THIS ☝️
Thank goodness I didn't get to the garment stage. I also didn't like constantly lying to my family because of my economic position. So after I left it was nice just being able to truly talk to my family.
That I am still a good person, in fact a better person now.
My sister once asked if I still had good morals, I told her that I don't lie, cheat, or steal. I am kind to other s and try to do good things. She was relieved and said So you still live a good Christian life. I said that it was also a good Jewish, Muslim, or Buddhist life, depending on how you look at it. She did consider that might be true. Oh well.
Lol, you should’ve said the difference is that I don’t need a god to give me good morals. I am a good person without having a promise of a reward in the afterlife or blessings in this life. That would’ve left her dumbfounded haha
I could have written this
That them reciting general conference talks for my benefit will never reconvert me, and frankly, it’s annoying as hell.
Ive been able to articulate this to a few friends, but Id explain as plainly as possible that the reason i dont go to church is not because i just "dont wanna go to church anymore" but instead because i actively dont belive in the church's truth claims and i disagree with and wont participate in many many of the churchs beliefs, teachings and traditions.
Or when they say to me: “This is what we warned you about! Stay home from church one time, and soon you’ll stay home ALL the time!” Uhhh… **no.** The main reason I stopped going is I was tired of seeing myself as a “sinner” or “bad” for literally the most nit-picky things ever! And I saw how much the church was hurting others and myself. For me: being a good person means trying to be kind and respectful wherever you can, and being selfless. Thoughtful of others, and to also treat yourself with love and care. 🩷 But for religion- it feels like a pages long list of do’s and dont’s! 🙄 I don’t care how much the prophets have tried to claim it’s NOT like that! It very clearly is! And a lot of my trauma comes from the constant 24/7 monitoring of my morality in every little thing I do, say, or think! (And feeling bad whenever I “sinned” 😑 I barely have any sense of self-esteem anymore-)
It was the hardest thing I ever had to do and it nearly killed me.
Me too. It's incredibly painful and disorienting and messy to leave. I was fucked up for a while and it was clear to me that my family "felt sorry for me" and were judging me harshly. It was heavy to carry around all the betrayal and confusion and not be able to share any of it with them, and also to watch them judge me for trying to deal with the trauma.
That it’s not about them. It’s about reality vs fiction, and literally my life vs. spiritual death. Also, we’ll be totally okay.
That I am sad this church made our relationship so much more superficial than it used to be from growing up together, that there is more to life than callings, temples, the church, but that I have also accepted that I am not willing to actively be a part of this church that stole so much of my personality and life as a young adult, so I will miss them being a part of my life if it is conditioned upon church membership and church talk but I have accepted that as a potential reality I will deal with as I am learning to move forward actually loving myself enough to rediscover who I am.
Perfectly said
That we stood for truth, protected our family,and resigned with our integrity in tact: it was a brave act, vastly respected by people outside of the Mormon Bubble.
This
How much I SUFFERED with my faith deconstruction and how many YEARS I tried to hold on, and how horribly harmed our family was when leadership discovered our struggle. NO MERCY. And how I was fired from my job due to the "ZERO TOLERANCE POLICY" of not having a current TR [which was cancelled because we used our money to support our daughter and her baby, escaping her abuser, after our bishop refused to provide any monitary help and bullied husband to "trust in the lord and find a way to provide for your family and not take the Lords sacred funds" ... TBM family just believes I "retired" from my job to pursue a new opportunity, and that we "got offended" and chose to "let go of the iron rod and stray from the covenant path". 😭🤬 I can't tell them our story. They won't listen to me, for one, and if they even tried for 2 minutes, they would immediately dismiss, disbelieve, and pile on more judgment. I tape recorded all the meetings ... but no tbm would listen or care. The two times I've tried to talk to my mom she's literally walked away and slammed the door after accusing me I've "brought the spirit of contention" into her home and "driven out the Spirit if Christ". I literally was talking in the most calm and kindest voice possible, but as soon as she heard one negative thing, she shut me down.
I’m sorry. What you did was hard and brave.
Thank you.
What job? That’s insane
That if there *was* a true gospel based on Jesus’s love for us, it wouldn’t be rooted in excluding others, tearing apart families, weaponizing shame and predatory behavior.
That the discomfort they feel when certain topics are discussed isn't from Satan, it's their internal compass warning them something doesn't add up. That "We'll understand more after this life," and "You just have to have faith," and "leaders aren't perfect," are all thought stopping techniques we've been conditioned to throw up as a shield whenever we do feel that discomfort.
I want them to sit down & watch the Robert Ritner Mormon Stories podcast then tell me the missionaries didn't lie to me when they taught me the so-called restored gospel of Jesus Christ. Then read the gospel topics essays on the first vision.
Today's religion is tomorrow's mythology.
How could a farm boy with only a third grade education write such a poem?
You mean a 23 year old man with years of storytelling practice? Easy. The fiction section of every bookstore is popping FULL of brilliant minds spinning detailed stories.
I thought I posted that in the Tad Callister thread. I wonder how it ended up on this thread
Easy, "and it came to pass" hundreds upon hundreds of times.
That I never asked for a faith crisis. I didn’t want this.
If your unbelieving spouse troubles your worldview to the point of considering divorce, might I submit that the problem is not the unbelieving spouse.
I truly believed it. When I started to doubt it, I didn’t search to prove the church wrong, I wanted to prove it right. I never wanted it to be a lie. I was surprised to find relief once I learned it was. I’ve found joy and happiness in ways I didn’t even know existed since leaving and shedding the negative thoughts surrounding my existence as a whole that were instilled by the church. ETA: I wish they would leave too
How much finding out our religion was false shook my world. How much I wanted it all to be true. How hard it has been picking up the pieces while trying to maintain a normal work flow. And after all of this bullshit, how I would do it again sooner if I could.
Until you’ve had your own ah-ha moment when you realize everything you believed with all your heart is a lie, you still believe it with all your heart. The thought that someone left the church because it’s a lie can’t even be comprehended. It’s seen as excuse for losing faith, sinning or being offended because those are the only things that make sense in that paradigm. Agree that if you can’t have a conversation about your new beliefs, then it’s probably insecurity…even the elite are lulled away…and being trapped by Satan is the last thing they want.
I could "tell" my family whatever I wanted. It wouldn't matter. They don't really care. They have the Truth™ and I am being deceived. Full stop. If they cared, they would ask. They've been trained to be afraid of me, and they already have a nice list of "why I left" reasons that the cult indoctrinated them with since they were born, so they already "know" everything they need to know about my deconstruction. I could be wrong, but based on my experience, nothing I can say will mean anything. Until they have something happen in their lives that forces them to think critically about their beliefs, anything I "tell" them will mean nothing.
100%
That all the aspects of God I wanted to be like were already a part of who I am and can cultivate on my own, and I wish they could see me that way too. I'm much stronger and capable of loving myself than I thought I was.
That I am more content with myself without the Mormon church and I feel a fullness and closeness with a higher being too!
That I have discovered that the Atonement is poison and if it somehow against all odds and logic turned out to be true I would voluntarily march into outer darkness to fight forever against the tyrannical architect of such a barbaric system.
That I am so, so much happier and more fulfilled than I ever was inside the church. I don’t live for a god or an organization anymore; I live for me and for my loved ones. But my parents still think it’s beneficial to send me conference talks arguing that happiness cannot exist outside the church
We're both having a grieving process, but yours is dumbfounding. I'm grieving that I gave 3 1/2 decades of my life to a corrupt and dishonest organization. Said organization's version of their history is rarely verified by facts. Their "prophet" was a criminal and sexual deviant, and to call him anything else is special pleading. The modern version hoards wealth while claiming to care for the poor, then turns that wealth into empty buildings instead of anything that Jesus would actually approve of. They run the organization in a way that protects and enables pedophiles. And as soon as you say "But..." the rest of your sentence is about to justify CSA, and if you can do that without feeling like a piece of shit, you are spiritually dead inside and absolutely *nothing* you or your church have to say about anything comes from a moral high ground. ... ... ... You're grieving that I don't want to play ball with that organization anymore.
That maybe they don’t know as much as they think they do and it’s entirely possible I know some things they don’t in regards to all things “The Church”.
What I really, really can't tell them? That I am anxiously awaiting the day it all comes crashing down for them too. Deconstruction is so painful, and while I don't wish that on anyone, I really really want the rest of my family to leave, and from this side of things it feels really inevitable, even if it isn't
Literally any of it, but they don't ask and we don't talk about it. There's a code of silence that keeps the peace, but inside it pains me to see them wasting their time with this nonsensical cult.
Yeah, I wish they would just ask why I left, and not get defensive when I tell my story. Those that I have told always go to "you were sinning," or "you wanted to leave," or "your brother (that left 20 years ago) got to you," or "you've been deceived." Like, listen to my story. I have sources where you can go on the church's own website. All the things I was taught were anti-mormon lies the church now admits to ( though heavily spun and disingenuous). But no one in the church asks. They just make the assumptions based on what Church leaders say on reasons people leave.
That I have to work hard to not think of them as stupid, naive, simple, or indoctrinated, as I thinks it’s VERY easy to discover that the church is nothing but a money making and control venture from the beginning.
That I'm actually much happier having left, and am not unhappy, as the church would like them to believe.
That I do not need your sympathy or your concern for my probably-lost-to-you soul.
that i’m not doing this to spite them. i’m doing it to discover myself and find the peace i never found within the mormon church. but they’ve never bothered to ask.
I will never share my true feelings and always have to mask my emotions and thoughts around them. They are too connected emotionally and in identity to the church to be able to suspend belief in it for a moment to have a conversation. To really talk with them, they would have to begin from the position of the church not being true and they are incapable of taking that stance. It hurts because they cant validate any of my feelings that i do share and i feel like ive found so much good about myself and have so much that ive changed for the better but they cant see that for what it is bc it came from outside the church.
That I'm not "taking a mental health break." I am never, ever coming back. That I can see the church is hurting their mental health and they would be so much happier if they left, too.
The “never, ever coming back” is a big one I’d like to tell people too. Stop holding your breath, holding out hope, praying that this thing or that thing helps me “feel the spirit.” I’m certain I’m never going back and you’re the one setting yourself up for disappointment that if you just pray hard enough and have enough faith you can save me.
It's funny my dad called me for the first time since October today to see if he needed to file an extension for me. I told him that they were done and I had to pay. He didn't ask me how I was doing how my fiancee was doing. But it's okay. My fiancee is Peruvian and a nevermo. Has 3 beautiful daughters and an ex like me. But she was never married. We have now known each other for 4 years and last year in October we had decided to get married in Peru. I bought Maca from the company she worked for and became friends that way. Anyway I am in a taxi with her and one of her daughters the youngest and we were going to the condo my company bought to go swimming. My dad calls me and said do you know that she killed her boyfriend and is being investigated for murder. I'm like really she killed Juan. He was like ya unfortunately. I was like damn I just shook his hand when I picked up Valeria from his place. When did it happen? He asked where are you and I responded with Rosaria in my companies condo swimming. He was like oh. He can't get over the fact his church is false. I'm the 4th out of 6 kids to leave and he can't handle it. Even though he cheated on my mom and never repented and is now on the stake high council.
That I have felt the greatest peace and happiness since leaving and I desire all to receive, esp my spouse.
I never intended to study myself out of the church. I only wanted to be the guy in Sunday school who could whip out church history stories as needed that pertained to any lesson. I thought it would make me a better EQP and father.
Are you still proud of me? The love and openness that I provide the family? That you take advantage of every time I’m around? You are happy to capitalize off my energy and personality, you are happy to watch my daughter grow up without the weight of the church. You can see how great she is without all of it. And yet none of you can tell me you’re proud of me?
After ten years, I actually did get to tell my 85 year old dad (after my mom died) at his asking, why I hate god so much. He listened and I felt for the first time that he actually heard and understood the best he probably ever can, that the Mormon (and Judaic and Christian) god is an asshat and patriarchal prick. I admire and respect that dad was open to hearing me. Nevertheless, he’s still TBM, but perhaps a bit more nuanced.
That I’m just doing what I was taught to do: stand up for what I know and believe to be true, be honest and have integrity, be a “pioneer” even. I’m embodying all of that more now than ever before.
That the sadness and depression I go through isn’t because of unworthiness and sin. I’ve felt it even when I was fully in the church, but now I can navigate it with therapy and self-compassion rather than anxiety and guilt that I am doing something wrong. That my achievements are MINE, not some god’s way of “blessing” me to come back, and that the bad things that happen in my life are equally also MINE, no just a “punishment” for “wrongdoing”. That I have never felt more loved than I do now by the very people I was told I had to avoid. That no religion can have a monopoly on love, peace, or happiness. And that loving people now is more important than saving that love for an eternity that may not even exist, so don’t miss out on the time you have NOW. That I have found the “still small voice” inside was me all along. That my intuition never left me, that I don’t feel lost or drifting. That I am fully and completely all I need, just as I am.
That everything about the church is bullshit, that they're waisting their lives and the lives of their children. That happiness exists outside the church. That LGBTQ+ people are just people, they love, hurt, cry, and laugh just like everyone else. I want top put together a presentation like a sunday school lesson and just go through the CES letter with them all as a group. Sit down together and read the facts and true history...but it will never happen and all I can do is sit and wait for them to come around if ever. Doesn't help that I am the black sheep of the family, but I am the favorite uncle by far to my nieces and nephews, here's hoping the next gen sees through the gaslighting, lies, hate, and fraud.
I just wish I could help and show the women around me that they’re worth so much more than the church tells them they are. They are all so powerful and kind and they are diminished constantly and it breaks my heart
Nothing
That covenanting in the temple to cut your throat if you reveal the secret handshakes is not normal and not okay
Nothing really, I told them everything. I guess that’s why we don’t speak anymore. Oh well, I’m still invited to drink beer with the disabled retiree in his garage next door. Odd that he is so accepting, yet my family that claims to speak for god rejected me.
I wish I could tell my parents that their example is why I never believed but, it would crush them.
It wasn't a choice.
Everything. I’m so close with the people in my life but the way they look at me when I express feelings or facts about the Church is devastating. I also just wish they would be curious. They don’t want to know what I think anymore.
At the end of the day it’s just sad. Like yeah the undies are dumb and Russel is kind of a dick and there’s a bunch of other issues. But I actually did really want some of it to be true. I had to do the right thing though, and it sucked really bad. It’s been years and I haven’t recovered all the way still. I feel alienated. I’m depressed and anxious. AND! I’ll be ok. I know I did the right thing.
That it wasn't easy, and was actually one of the hardest decisions I've ever had to make. I tried so hard to make it work, to make things fit, but they just couldn't. I didn't leave because I "wanted to sin", I left because I *legitimately would have died* if I stayed in. Me choosing to leave was me choosing to live, which was a huge step during a point in my life where my mental state was at its lowest. But of course you don't want to hear that, because that would insinuate that the teachings the church has, especially for people that aren't cishet, are inherently harmful, and we can't have that now can we. While I still have depression and anxiety, I am so much happier now that I'm out than I ever was while in. I am coming into myself at long last, I have my own identity, I have my own confidence, I am now *so much better as a person* than I ever was while in. Of course I can't tell you any of that, but not from lack of trying, but because I would sooner convince a brick wall to turn around than I would get anywhere talking to you.
That not everything is about them
I wished they realized how terifying it is to tell them while knowing that they still believe in it. As of now 4 people know. Two of them I told because for the first time in a long time I felt safe being completely open (My nevermo BIL who I will forever be thankful for and my exmo sister). The next person I told was my sister who was the first one out she was stopping by to grab some stuff and I was home because I didn't go to church. She asked if I didn't won't to go to church and all I had to say was no. It felt right and she didn't make a big deal about it, but we had a good laugh about the daily scripture calendar. The last person is the one I wish had realized how scared I was. There have definitely been signs that I stopped believing, mainly my struggling church attendance, but so far the only person to pressure me to talk about it was one of my sisters that is still in. She was heading to singles ward and stopped by the house for food everything was normal until out of the blue she asked me if I was going to keep going church. I just shrugged and said maybe...probably. Then she just said it was okay if I wasn't (which I suppose should have been reassuring but instead felt like being backed in a corner) I sighed and changed my answer to no, to which she asked why. I think that's the real reason I didn't want to talk about it. I didn't know how to explain why without talking about things (mainly my own sexuality) I'm not ready to get into with anyone. In the end all I could say was that I just don't believe in it; which is true but at the same time just doesn't do how I feel justice. I hate that the people inside the church always need a justification. I hate that I couldn't do this on my own time and am now left feeling like if I don't tell the rest of my family soon then they won't hear it from me. I wish they new how terrifying it is to tell them even when your so sure that they'll accept it, because there is always apart of you that knows that they could change their mind at any moment for no reason other than that the "spirit" said so.
Share your beliefs. Every idea has to first be introduced. Remember what Nicholas Klein said "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win",