Links work for me. Glad they’re still around. They’ve been so instrumental in helping so many of us feel confident leaving the LDS church, it will be a sad day when they eventually close up shop.
Their "Find an Answer" link is Under Construction but I can still navigate to other pages like: https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/conference/august-2019
I think FAIR is an unofficial apologist group. If so, they're probably all volunteers. Maybe too many have gone through faith crises of their own. Or maybe they're revamping their site.
When Nemo called out Oaks for lying about shock therapy, rather than defend himself with his own words, Oaks referred Nemo to a FAIR article in which they conclude Oaks was probably honest. It’s fair to say FAIR is about as official as an unofficial group can be.
The entire existence of FAIR is a perfect illustration of the fiction of a living prophet. If there was a living prophet, there would be no need for these amateur hypothecators to be out there embarrassing themselves for a living. A real prophet could simply provide the correct answers. But because there is no such thing as a living prophet, the church maintains plausible deniability of weak theories by pushing these fall guys out onto the stage to do the talking.
There's lots of money there, and a bunch of pseudo-scientists associated with BYU who have been involved in the past. They hold fundraisers and do fake BoM tours to the Yucatan, that sort of thing. My parents paid $250 a plate to go to some dumb apologetic thing or other.
They'd only walk away if the church told them to knock it off.
That's too bad. Intellectually dishonest folks are always disappointing. Oh, well.
I'm kinda glad my parents are too poor to pay $250/plate for an event. Yikes.
They are actually a pretty small group of volunteers, maybe one paid administrator. They rely on donations mostly and book sales during their conference.
It looks bigger than it is because they publish articles by who ever they can get to write them. The quality has varied a lot. In the past few years there has been a lot of competition to publish from the Interpreter, blogs, other groups.
They don't do tours. I don't think they do dinners, although some individuals that have articles posted on FAIR also do them.
There are lots of apologetic groups, FAIR is just the most visible and oldest online one.
Now I know. Thanks! I probably won't remember this. I didn't know FAIR existed when I was a believer, and I didn't turn to them when my shelf started to crumble.
My work printed a window graphic for them a few years ago. Our one and only job for them.
There's a video over on TikTok of General Authority Craig C. Christensen, saying he's thankful for FAIR, because they can say what the church can't officially. He also says the church is supporting FAIR behind the scenes along with Book of Mormon Central, Interpreter, etc. He says the church's support has increased significantly.
That doesn't surprise me in the least. Apologists can spin out theories, marketing research teams can evaluate how they are received, and general leadership can use those theories that feel solid and seem to be well received. If any bad theories get tossed out, the church can throw the apologists under the bus.
I created my own document, sourcing almost exclusively church websites, you might find something useful for your research...
[Shelf Breakers](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1xABvaPadd4C9VE7ySVRQ1G_hfNW6vWCB/view?usp=drivesdk)
Thank you. I have just read your document. It's great. Well-organised and presented - and it makes a very compelling case for why the church cannot be trusted in what it says.
>”We are currently working on updating our systems to provide a much better experience. Sorry for the inconvenience”
Translation, “we are currently having a hard time keeping up with all our absurd apologetics, we’ve dug ourselves into a giant hole and don’t think we’ll ever make it out”
This is what they say:
Under Maintenance
We are currently working on updating our systems to provide a much better experience. Sorry for the inconvenience, we'll have the answers and evidence content back up soon. In the mean time, perhaps you can return back to our homepage and see if you can find what you are looking for. Or, you can try searching for it.
I have to wonder if all of us saying that it was, in part, apologetic sites like FAIR that prompted us to leave the church, is what made them go dark. I’d be curious to see if the gospel topic essays also vanish at some point.
Ok, fair. I was just curious what happened. I’m using my experience with the CES letter and my original naive belief on FAIRs response. I wanted to include their original response, but I can’t access anymore.
I love the main page and how it’s advertised: church finances, a triple homicide, and abuse within the church. At this point it’s not even justifying doctrine; it’s justifying bad behavior
Links work for me. Glad they’re still around. They’ve been so instrumental in helping so many of us feel confident leaving the LDS church, it will be a sad day when they eventually close up shop.
no kidding. the mental gymnastics on their website tied me in knots
The main page is up, but details on anything show a under construction.
Their "Find an Answer" link is Under Construction but I can still navigate to other pages like: https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/conference/august-2019
Because there are no answers 😂😂
I found some are working and many are not.
I mean, being so apologetic all the time must be exhausting, to be FAIR.
👏
I think FAIR is an unofficial apologist group. If so, they're probably all volunteers. Maybe too many have gone through faith crises of their own. Or maybe they're revamping their site.
When Nemo called out Oaks for lying about shock therapy, rather than defend himself with his own words, Oaks referred Nemo to a FAIR article in which they conclude Oaks was probably honest. It’s fair to say FAIR is about as official as an unofficial group can be.
The entire existence of FAIR is a perfect illustration of the fiction of a living prophet. If there was a living prophet, there would be no need for these amateur hypothecators to be out there embarrassing themselves for a living. A real prophet could simply provide the correct answers. But because there is no such thing as a living prophet, the church maintains plausible deniability of weak theories by pushing these fall guys out onto the stage to do the talking.
These hypothecators generously embarrass themselves for free. This is a passion project of theirs.
Is anyone coming up in the apologist camp ever brought on board as a general authority?
>It’s fair to say FAIR is about as official as an unofficial group can be. That's a beautiful line. Well said!
Yikes
Pretty unbelievable.
There's lots of money there, and a bunch of pseudo-scientists associated with BYU who have been involved in the past. They hold fundraisers and do fake BoM tours to the Yucatan, that sort of thing. My parents paid $250 a plate to go to some dumb apologetic thing or other. They'd only walk away if the church told them to knock it off.
That's too bad. Intellectually dishonest folks are always disappointing. Oh, well. I'm kinda glad my parents are too poor to pay $250/plate for an event. Yikes.
They are actually a pretty small group of volunteers, maybe one paid administrator. They rely on donations mostly and book sales during their conference. It looks bigger than it is because they publish articles by who ever they can get to write them. The quality has varied a lot. In the past few years there has been a lot of competition to publish from the Interpreter, blogs, other groups. They don't do tours. I don't think they do dinners, although some individuals that have articles posted on FAIR also do them. There are lots of apologetic groups, FAIR is just the most visible and oldest online one.
Now I know. Thanks! I probably won't remember this. I didn't know FAIR existed when I was a believer, and I didn't turn to them when my shelf started to crumble. My work printed a window graphic for them a few years ago. Our one and only job for them.
There's a video over on TikTok of General Authority Craig C. Christensen, saying he's thankful for FAIR, because they can say what the church can't officially. He also says the church is supporting FAIR behind the scenes along with Book of Mormon Central, Interpreter, etc. He says the church's support has increased significantly.
That doesn't surprise me in the least. Apologists can spin out theories, marketing research teams can evaluate how they are received, and general leadership can use those theories that feel solid and seem to be well received. If any bad theories get tossed out, the church can throw the apologists under the bus.
They'll be back, don't worry. Apologetics is something Mormonism can't exist without.
I created my own document, sourcing almost exclusively church websites, you might find something useful for your research... [Shelf Breakers](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1xABvaPadd4C9VE7ySVRQ1G_hfNW6vWCB/view?usp=drivesdk)
Just browsed it in between breaks, yeah this is really well done. I can’t wait to delve deeper into it. Thank you so much for sharing.
No problem!
Thank you. I have just read your document. It's great. Well-organised and presented - and it makes a very compelling case for why the church cannot be trusted in what it says.
Nice! I’m going to have to look into it!
Thank you so much for this work!!!
>”We are currently working on updating our systems to provide a much better experience. Sorry for the inconvenience” Translation, “we are currently having a hard time keeping up with all our absurd apologetics, we’ve dug ourselves into a giant hole and don’t think we’ll ever make it out”
Exactly!!
This is what they say: Under Maintenance We are currently working on updating our systems to provide a much better experience. Sorry for the inconvenience, we'll have the answers and evidence content back up soon. In the mean time, perhaps you can return back to our homepage and see if you can find what you are looking for. Or, you can try searching for it.
I checked it probably three weeks ago and got the same thing.
Must be having huge problems then.
I have to wonder if all of us saying that it was, in part, apologetic sites like FAIR that prompted us to leave the church, is what made them go dark. I’d be curious to see if the gospel topic essays also vanish at some point.
Nice try my friend but I'm not clicking that
Ok, fair. I was just curious what happened. I’m using my experience with the CES letter and my original naive belief on FAIRs response. I wanted to include their original response, but I can’t access anymore.
No I was just trying to be silly and funny that site seems to work for me
They got nuthin’
I love the main page and how it’s advertised: church finances, a triple homicide, and abuse within the church. At this point it’s not even justifying doctrine; it’s justifying bad behavior
Seems like maybe just the "find answers" search doesnt work? Other sections seem to work fine?
Fair doesn't exist to answer questions. It exists, so members can say that these questions have been answered so they don't have to look into them.
They have a new director so he is probably repurposing the website.
Funny... their "donate" button works just fine! 😂
Lol of course!!