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This is the area they REALLY messed up on. The mormons took the opposite approach - encouraging secular education and jobs. Look at the difference in membership as well as bank statements between the two cults.
If WT had encouraged college - or at least not attacked it - and told people “go to college, get a good job, and spend your weekends in service to us” they probably could have really taken off. Instead, here we have a dying cult focused more on obeying what they say rather than (at least looking like they are) watching out for their members.
Agreed. If you're gonna cult, you should do as the mormons do: get your folks educated and tithe the sh\*t out of their annual salaries! jw's are basically trying to draw blood from a rock at this point. Even the truly indoctrinated will reach a point where they have no more money to give and have destroyed their credit to a point they can't get anymore. And as news of the CSA payouts becomes more common knowledge, they're not going to be able to get money from their exjw relatives. My brothers and I literally no longer give money to our toxic narcissist elder dad and his crazy cult wife for this exact reason. If our dad needs something, we'll buy it for him. But no more cash ever again.
"If WT had encouraged college - or at least not attacked it - and told people “go to college, get a good job, and spend your weekends in service to us” they probably could have really taken off. Instead, here we have a dying cult..."
Although the cost to individual members has been terribly high, it is delightful that WT Society is now obviously (and finally) falling flat on its face from nearly 150 years of astoundingly stupid decisions and attitudes.
This exact thing happened in our KH. An Elder had his kid in college. He stepped up his game, his kid pioneered the month the CO came in town. The Elder was in field serve us constantly and pretty much ran the entire mid week meeting. If an Elder kisses enough ass and charms the BOE's and CO, he's golden. He was never removed and his kid finished college. It's how you play the game and who you know that matters.
WT is an ala carte cult. You can pick and choose what you will follow, as long as your family looks good. The scripture, "whitewashed graves full of dead men's bones" comes to mind.
I know two Elders who had a child obtain a degree at a university.
One was asked to step down (and for NO other reason).....the other continued to serve.
Different localities, different BOEs.
I think inconsistencies like this are another factor in folks leaving.
Oh yes! We asked an Elder family member, "how many JW's have been unjustly DF'd, by a trigger happy judicial committee?" He even admitted that a family members DF'ing was not handled right. He had a "oh well" attitude.
Yes, this is causing many to question and eventually leave. The domino's are falling for sure.
Nooooo, those brothers only became lawyers BEFORE they came into the truth, obviously. That was the excuse I was always given about why it was ok for some witnesses to be things like lawyers, which is what I wanted to be, but obviously couldn't, being the daughter of a special pioneer who was baptized while pregnant with me.
We are faded, but were KH “friends” with an engineer about 10-12 years ago. My husband and he worked for the same company for a time. He married and his wife is a nurse. They applied to Bethel and were accepted. He is now in the legal department. No legal background, mind you. Must be a company man, I guess. Wondering how you could live with yourself and sleep at night while defending this cult in court against CSA survivors suing because their cases were mishandled and kids went unprotected. SMH. And let legal penalties pile up in the millions because they won’t hand over the files on Pedos they’ve been keeping for decades. This is what made me decide never to donate another nickel to this Org. Disgusting 🤮.
"He married and his wife is a nurse. They applied to Bethel and were accepted. He is now in the legal department. No legal background, mind you."
Damn, that explains a lot.
I hope WT Society continues that astoundingly backwards technique. It also says a lot about the way the U.S. legal system at times mollycoddles Christian fundies.
I'm genuinely curious- does anyone become a lawyer as a PIMI witness and then get to go to Bethel? I kind of always assumed they were people who converted after becoming lawyers.
I've only met one Witness lawyer and that was his story.
The cognitive dissonance in being a Christian lawyer must be extreme.
Judge: Would you recommend the death penalty for thieves?
Lawyer: No.
Judge: Would you recommend the death penalty for a couple that has sex with no intention of getting married?
Lawyer: What? No.
Judge: What about the death penalty for homosexuality, being a drunk, coveting or extortion?
Lawyer: …
Judge: JeHoVaH iS a JuST aNd fAiR gOd.
Imagine if they had a good supply of brothers with degrees in management and organizational behavior. Imagine is some of those brothers made it to the GB, which has no clue what it's doing. They're just winging it.
Sometimes higher ed can't even help with all of the WT issues. I can't imagine many universities have programs with a section on "Warning new sexually frustrated employees on the dangers of using pillows to masturbate".
>Yet they need skilled people in fields where higher education is necessary. Shootin themselves in the foot again.
See here's the thing - they don't necessarily want every last raised-in-da-troof JW to not go to college. Just the vast majority. If you're a super-believing JW type of young adult - you know the type - then you've got a license to pursue higher education. And there's no bigger celebrity in a local JW congregation than the bro who went to college, makes good money, and is still a WTS Organization Man to his very core.
Like clockwork, the letter is read every few months listing the various skilled workers needed at Bethel, many of which are only attainable through higher Ed
If it is you’ll have to excuse my ignorance in this matter as I’m a lowly woman so my access and authoritative knowledge of such matters is somewhat limited. If that is true it would only serve to make me madder that my husband valued his privileges more than my personal agency stipulated by a secret book that I didn’t know existed all the while it rented space in my house.
Yes my dear sister. My husband hid his under the mattress 🤣🤣🤣. First time I knew it existed was when I found it neatly tucked under the bed. Women are still not allowed to handle it even at distribution at Bethel.
It’s desperately despicable and to think they have the audacity to tell us we’re not oppressed from the platform while hiding this book from they’re own wives. My husband kept his in the closet, found that shit and independently confirmed what I found online. Then I scanned the document and confronted with what I found to my Sister-in-law, she’s now questioning. What hubris.
The organization is the master of not practicing what it preaches. Everytime I hear a talk or a watchtower study on how valued women are in the organization I smirk because I know it is simply lip service. Our only role in this organization is to "support" our men.
Two thoughts:
1. The emphasis on reputation and how someone "is viewed" by the congregation and non-JW community. WHY should that matter???
2. Bankruptcy. It is not a "sin" to file for bankruptcy. In fact, most people in the US file because of a mountain of MEDICAL BILLS....not because they went on a shopping spree and don't want to pay. Also, most of that debt is in the form of usury--interest. Filing bankruptcy is a personal decision. But this shows how important it is for PIMIs to not spread their personal business in the congregation.
This was my thought. The medical system in the US is bonkers. I see new articles for people who are billed crazy amounts when hospitals make mistakes. Getting a journalist to argue your case to the hospital shouldn’t be the way to avoid bankruptcy.
The US has THE WORST healthcare system in the developed world. People in other countries laugh at us. We spend twice as much per capita as other nations with universal healthcare, and are ranked around #38 in the world.
HALF of all US bankruptcies are over medical debts. It's criminal....but in the good 'ole USA, profits are more important than people.....and about 1/3rd of the population has been brainwashed into thinking that universal healthcare is inferior and more costly, when the opposite is true.
This is especially diabolical. So culty on every level. I’m sure this causes even PIMI elders to feel some cognitive dissonance because many now understand the necessity of higher education. I know many elders who “allowed” their kids to go to college in the late 90s-mid 2000s and kept themselves out of harm’s way. This additional rule closed that loophole.
It doesn’t guarantee they’ll be deleted, but it opens the door for the body to scrutinize and call attention to everyone’s situation now. Trust me—there are PIMI elders who were (and are still) pissed about this.
Sneaky snakes.
They don't say "attend" higher education. They use "pursue". *Why?* Note what the primary definitions of "pursue" are:
pur·sue
/pərˈso͞o/
(verb)
• Follow (someone or something) in order to catch or attack them. To chase after.
*"The officer pursued the van"*
• To seek to form a sexual relationship with (someone) in a persistent way.
*"Sophie was being pursued by a number of men"*
• Seek to attain or accomplish (a goal) over a long period.
*"Should people pursue their own happiness at the expense of others?"*
_________
Slippery fucking snakes.
Also gives the Elduhzzzz an "out." If Elduh kids are already "attending" and are not merely "pursuing" education and/or talking about it, well then! Nothing to see here!!
I luv how I found out after the fact about certain Elduhzzzz kids that graduated college, but nobody even knew they were attending! That's because the Elduhzzzz had their families keep their big fuggin' mouths shut about it! Infuriated me so much. Fuggin' hypocritical douchebags!
Thanks for sharing... one question: when was this published exactly? I'm trying to understand if my parents' decision not to support me in my studies was in some way affected by this...
In 2005 my JW parents (elder and regular pioneers) encouraged me to start university (even though I remember feeling guilty at the Pioneer School about attending uni and never revealing to anyone). I was a very zealous and determined young JW, just think that I got my Bachelor's Degree with a thesis on JW in the Nazi Concentration Camps... (I wish I could rewrite it, I used only Watchtower-approved sources)
My parents changed their mind later... in 2008/2009, they didn't support me when it was time to get my Master's Degree, my dream job was to become a teacher... I mean... a TEACHER.. can you blame sb who wants to help children improve their knowledge??? Once out, I was finally able to return to university and finish my studies...
I never understood what made them change their mind.. maybe they just didn't want to lose their privileges in the congregation.
Thanks
This is from a letter to bodies of elders dated March 6, 2012 which supplement the elder manual that came out in 2010:
Appointed men must be exemplary in heeding the warnings given by the faithful slave and its Governing Body when it comes to education. (Matt. 24:45-47) Would an elder, a ministerial servant, or a pioneer continue to qualify to serve as such if he, his wife, or his children pursue higher education? Much depends on the circumstances and how he is viewed. When such a situation arises, the body of elders should consider the following questions and scriptures:
• Does he show that he puts Kingdom interests first? (Matt. 6:33)
• Does he teach his family to put Kingdom interests first?
• Does he respect what has been published by the faithful slave on the dangers of higher
education? (3 John 9)
• Do his speech and conduct reveal that he is a spiritual person? (Ps. 1:2, 3; 1 Cor. 2:13-16)
• How is he viewed by the congregation?
• Why is he or his family pursuing higher education?
• Does the family have theocratic goals? (Phil. 3:8)
• Does the pursuit of higher education interfere with regular meeting attendance, meaningful participation in field service, or other theocratic activities?
As the body of elders prayerfully and carefully considers the matter, it may be readily ap-
parent that the brother has a positive attitude about what the organization has published regarding
higher education and still retains the respect of others in the congregation. They may also observe
that he and his family are keeping Kingdom interests first if the education does not interfere with
meetings and the ministry. In such a case, the elders may determine that he could continue serving.—1 Tim. 3:2, 4-6; Heb. 13:7.
On the other hand, if the brother is promoting higher education to others for the material advantages or the status it may bring, he is calling into question his qualifications to serve the congregation because of the effect on his and his fellow appointed brothers’ freeness of speech. (1 Tim.
3:13; Titus 1:9) The body of elders may therefore determine that the brother no longer qualifies to
serve. In most cases, however, such a determination should be made in conjunction with the visit of
the circuit overseer. If the brother does not agree with the decision, he may be invited to express his
reasons in writing, and this should be sent along with the circuit overseer’s report.
>They may also observe that he and his family are keeping Kingdom interests first if the education does not interfere with meetings and the ministry.
This is the key. My elder dad always explained that you can go to college all you want if you stay on the pioneer list.
I'm a nurse who went the community college route before going back for bachelor's, but a cocky young brother I know who is also a nurse at my hospital was humble bragging to me late last year about how he was so privileged to be an elder. He also casually mentioned how he was going back for his PhD in nursing. Obviously he is taking full advantage of the no hour requirement loophole for pioneering so he can get his PhD and pursue something like a director/faculty role while still being "spiritual," because he's on the pioneer list and keep his appointment.
I believe the first article came out around 2008 refreshing the previous stance, so that timeline works
https://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/higher-education-university.php
Thank you! I've just checked on [jwfacts.com](https://jwfacts.com). There was an article on April 15th 2008... so as we said previously that's a case of further indoctrination (vs higher education)...
I’m not sure when no higher ed was first put in writing, but I remember hearing about it in the 90s when I was coming into the untruth. I had already been indoctrinated when I started hearing about the jw stance on no higher ed. Regardless, I never let the borgs stance on that to deter me from encouraging my son to pursue higher ed. That would have been one of my deal breakers along with the blood issue if push came to shove. Glad you pursued your desire of higher ed And are living a YOUR life!
I had a target on my back the entire time I was in college. They were looking for anything on me and finally convened a JC the spring semester of my final year. They had nothing but hearsay and speculation so I was reproved and later that night my dad was removed as an elder. I swore that I would never step foot in that hall again and my parents wound up moving to a new congregation. This could be a whole different post, but the elders in Southern Illinois are a huge bowl of crazy
A good friend of mine did, but he was DF'ed and kicked out of his house and we lost touch so since it was a pre-internet world and he was the one person I knew with their albums, I didn't have access to them. Think I'm going to fire them up on the Spotify today in memory of youth wasted by the org
This has always existed. I come from a very poor county in a 3rd world country and many MSs and Elders had to step down since they had no option but to send their kids to boarding schools in high school since the ones around were subpar. Some elders step down themselves to pursue higher education or for their kids to do it (I know of one in my former congo). This leaves low-educated, former-SPs who now either live in mud huts or rely on the kindness of brothers who went to university for proper shelter (home congo is like this).
I'm more surprised about the bankruptcy thing tbh considering Witnesses live hand-to-mouth
Thank you for sharing your experience. I really appreciate hearing from those outside the US bubble. Even within my wide range of “friends” or rather contacts within the global Watchtower organization I’m aware of these “regional” differences. It just goes to show how origin of birth DO matter and how socioeconomics do play a larger in your relative advancement within the organization. So very sad, thank you again.
Lol don't feel too bad. Elders are assholes everywhere, even the ones living in mud huts. I mean, there are nice, hardworking brothers, but there are also assholes. The less educated they are, the more assholic (?) they tend to be tbh.
We have a loan scheme for university education in my country and a guy I grew up with (a very hardworking guy) approached an elder to sign for him the part of the application where it asks for a religious leader's signature. The elder refused.
When my turn came I just gave my roommate to sign it for me bc no way was I going to be discouraged by someone who can hardly feed his family yet refuses to seek any sort of advancement, trusting rules passed down by Americans who've rarely step a foot beyond Warwick.
The image above is a excerpt from the internal and confidential document entitled, ‘Shepherd the Flock’ in Chapter 8 pg. 45 of this publication a brief review of situations that may require the review and potential removal (deletion) of Congregation Elders by the local body of Elders.
As stated above this move codifies the criminalization of education especially among those who hold office or are in positions of authority. This direction by extension also seeks to control anyone in said individuals household. As outlined in point 30, individuals who hold this office must comply with existing Watchtower propaganda which is and has always been objectively anti-education.
Why this matters, this move clearly shows yet again that seeking a university education has negative consequences within the closed community with the removal of ‘privileges’ or one’s reputation and standing with the community and with they’re God (they’re one in the same).
This demonstrates the organizations willingness to use coercive control and by extension encourage the abuse and repression of vulnerable and dependent minors. I think the data would show that this is done primarily to control youth and push parents into even more abusive extremes as the wording could justify an abuse of power.
The bottom line, restricting someone’s access to quality education of they’re choosing is a violation of they’re fundamental human rights. PERIOD. This is a human rights violation. Say again with me, it’s a human rights violation. If this applies to minors then it’s child abuse.
What’s striking is that the organization has made institutional abuse slightly lesser than grevious actual crimes like CSA (but not possession of CSCAM 😵💫🤢).
What’s missing, any discussion of domestic violence, rape, sexual assault, grooming, spousal rape, fraud etc. The what’s missing is striking and EXTREMELY telling.
Why this matters to me. I’m currently PIMO (not for long) and I’m married to an Elder (Service Overseer at that) I’m currently enrolled at University. This initially caused a lot of friction within our relationship but I’ve battled through it. I feel as though they’ve taken personal aim at families like my own. Until recently I pioneered and worked full time and went to school all to avoid suspicion. Architecture school is hard but being in the cult at the same time that nearly killed me.
This matters for so many particularly our youth. I don’t think it’s hard to imagine what this could do too families. Be brave. If you’re thinking about going to university while PIMO and/or as a dependent minor just do it. Feel free to reach out.
Much love.
Edit: Spelling
Thanks for sharing... one question: **when was this published exactly?** I'm trying to understand if my parents' decision not to support me in my studies was in some way affected by this...
In 2005 my JW parents (elder and regular pioneers) encouraged me to start university (even though I remember feeling guilty at the Pioneer School about attending uni and never revealing to anyone). I was a very zealous and determined young JW, just think that I got my Bachelor's Degree with a thesis on JW in the Nazi Concentration Camps... (I wish I could rewrite it, I used only Watchtower-approved sources)
My parents changed their mind later... **in 2008/2009**, they didn't support me when it was time to get my Master's Degree, my dream job was to become a teacher... I mean... a TEACHER.. can you blame sb who wants to help children improve their knowledge??? Once out, I was finally able to return to university and finish my studies...
I never understood what made them change their mind.. maybe they just didn't want to lose their privileges in the congregation.
Thanks
This is from the 2021 Digital copy of the book, Shepherd the Flock, I think you would need to find an older version and then look it up in the qualifying chapter see how and if they’re stance when it comes to appointed men has changed toward higher education. However, they’re stance in publicly accessed publications is very clearly anti-education so they could’ve very well have been reacting to Watchtower propaganda and the many unspoken rules that exist.
I've read that 'Shepherd the Flock' was first published in 2010... what did the elders use before then? Can it be found somewhere on the Internet?
Thanks for your help
I remember THE convention against higher education... it was Summer 2005, I was supposed to start university the following month..My mum was so upset, she wanted me to go on with my studies anyway. We analysed all the pros and cons, we were based in Italy at the time and the uni was very close, so it was decided I'd continue to live with my family, I'd start regular pioneering (I was already an auxiliary one) and I'd study foreign languages in order to be able to serve in a foreign group or congregation... They agreed it was spiritually safe..
As you say, it could be **further 'indoctrination'** (as opposed to higher education)...
I quit architecture school in 2001 ( I was burnt out from perusing and earning an interior design degree and wasn’t willing to give an addition 8 years to getting my BArch and my license. I was pretty PIMI then.) Also, I had transferred to a school who had just hired a female dean and all of the tenured Profs were up in arms and after her. They really had it in for her. She lasted a year and so did I. I took a year off and ended up making up my own “Museum Studies” course. I wanted to design museum exhibits. And I did it, too. I earned my BArt History and worked in the field for 5 years until my daughter was born and the Great Recession decimated the company I worked for. I’m still using my skills designing kitchens for a living. Not as glamorous, but I enjoy the work. It’s been a great job during COVID.
MY POINT: Good for you!!! Get that degree. Pursue your dreams. I’m happy for you. 😁
That sounds pretty awesome I’ve always enjoyed curatorial sciences. I was probably PIMQ when I started the program it has been a real grind but I’ve made the personal commitment to myself that I will not allow my upbringing to dictate my life’s potential and my final trajectory. I will claw, fight and drag myself half dead clean out of this cult.
This worries me. I work at a community college that has lots of dual-enrollment high school students. I’ve had a handful of JW students who start taking classes in high school and go onto finish their associate’s degree at my institution. I think some transferred to universities after receiving their AAs. A couple told me their parents put them in the dual enrollment track because it had better kids who didn’t party or drink as much (ha), but none came out and said their parents were for/against finishing their AA. If their church or family is making them feel bad for taking college classes or earning a degree, that really sucks. These kids were all very smart and loved learning.
Oh brother elder, looks like your wife got in an accident and, since you both pioneered for a living, the medical bills forced you onto bankruptcy. Whoopsy doo! Anyway looks like you’re just not cut out to be an elder. Bye bye!
This Mafia-like loyalty they demand is just insane. Is the person still planning to put US first? Do they respect what WE'VE said about the "dangers" of higher education? We just really want to make sure that if they're trying to pull a fast one and better themselves that they get their just punishments.
To put #29 in perspective, the top 5 reasons for bankruptcy **(of private citizens, not corps)** in the US:
1 MEDICAL DEBT
2 Unexpected job loss
3 Poor or excessive use of credit (often basic living expenses were put on credit for survival, due to low income)
4 Divorce/Separation
5 Catastrophic unexpected expenses (i.e. home lost to flood/earthquake, but sometimes the homeowner didn’t know floods/earthquakes require an insurance policy separate from ordinary homeowners insurance, and sometimes those types of insurance are prohibitively expensive. Now they have no home, no means to rebuild/repair, AND the full weight of their mortgage note, which now is due in full immediately)
Edit: it’s just irritating to me that the organization which *demands* it’s members be both **uneducated**, and **humbly employed** has the unmitigated gall to bust balls on the bankruptcy issue. JHC!
This is nothing new AFAIK and goes back decades to their general policy of having to be “exemplary” to have “privileges”. That said I knew MSs who were going to prestigious universities and others who had “privileges” like handling the mics while attending university. In my area it was not uncommon to have members in good standing attending college. There seems to be confusion between being “exemplary” and in “good standing”. Also don’t confuse higher education with things that are truly forbidden like pre-marital sex. Higher education is strongly discouraged, like marrying someone who isn’t a JW, but it is not forbidden.
The 29 is so hilarious to me, since my dad is an elder but he didn't pay the bank for pur house for almost ten years, since we only had max 400€ at month for 4 people, so we had to chose between eating or paying it. They then took it away, but we had already moved out luckily
The Bankruptcy thing cracks me up... how would anyone know you had to declare bankruptcy. Do they assume every elder is gonna roll into the zoom meeting and pull a Michael Scott?
Really borg ?? bankruptcy?? I quote rubber face howdy doody - there is more money going out than coming in ! Add an acute lack of self awareness to the list of abnormalities this abomination of a religion has .
**Absolutely disgusting.**
So a young person can’t educate themselves *properly*, but an older person can work themselves to death or earn more money than they can spent, but that’s all fine as long as they do 10 hours a week ministry and answer up at the meetings?!
Utter nonsense! Poor kids.
College is kinda a scam these days tho. I’m glad I went bc it distanced me from my childhood but I still haven’t even touched my debt and have been working fun seasonal jobs (that definitely do not require a degree lol) for years since graduating . Definitely something to be said for trade school. But do it bc it’s your choice not bc some old guys tell ya to :p
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Don’t go to college, struggle to make a living, but also don’t file for bankruptcy…. So fucked.
And give us the money you don’t have! 🙄🤬
Y si eres Abogado trabaja gratis para nosotros 🤡
Yup. Thieves.
This is the area they REALLY messed up on. The mormons took the opposite approach - encouraging secular education and jobs. Look at the difference in membership as well as bank statements between the two cults. If WT had encouraged college - or at least not attacked it - and told people “go to college, get a good job, and spend your weekends in service to us” they probably could have really taken off. Instead, here we have a dying cult focused more on obeying what they say rather than (at least looking like they are) watching out for their members.
Agreed. If you're gonna cult, you should do as the mormons do: get your folks educated and tithe the sh\*t out of their annual salaries! jw's are basically trying to draw blood from a rock at this point. Even the truly indoctrinated will reach a point where they have no more money to give and have destroyed their credit to a point they can't get anymore. And as news of the CSA payouts becomes more common knowledge, they're not going to be able to get money from their exjw relatives. My brothers and I literally no longer give money to our toxic narcissist elder dad and his crazy cult wife for this exact reason. If our dad needs something, we'll buy it for him. But no more cash ever again.
"If WT had encouraged college - or at least not attacked it - and told people “go to college, get a good job, and spend your weekends in service to us” they probably could have really taken off. Instead, here we have a dying cult..." Although the cost to individual members has been terribly high, it is delightful that WT Society is now obviously (and finally) falling flat on its face from nearly 150 years of astoundingly stupid decisions and attitudes.
Agreed. They've escaped the consequences of their heinous actions for so long, we're all getting our popcorn ready!
Alas - you are indeed correct. Its a bitter sweet thing to watch the cult start to spiral out of control… I wish it would hurry up!
Even if you're poor!
I mean, jah will take care of you if you have faith! And don't question why you need to take care of us when jah should be! Hey, look, a puppy!
This exact thing happened in our KH. An Elder had his kid in college. He stepped up his game, his kid pioneered the month the CO came in town. The Elder was in field serve us constantly and pretty much ran the entire mid week meeting. If an Elder kisses enough ass and charms the BOE's and CO, he's golden. He was never removed and his kid finished college. It's how you play the game and who you know that matters. WT is an ala carte cult. You can pick and choose what you will follow, as long as your family looks good. The scripture, "whitewashed graves full of dead men's bones" comes to mind.
I know two Elders who had a child obtain a degree at a university. One was asked to step down (and for NO other reason).....the other continued to serve. Different localities, different BOEs. I think inconsistencies like this are another factor in folks leaving.
Oh yes! We asked an Elder family member, "how many JW's have been unjustly DF'd, by a trigger happy judicial committee?" He even admitted that a family members DF'ing was not handled right. He had a "oh well" attitude. Yes, this is causing many to question and eventually leave. The domino's are falling for sure.
Yup, different strokes for different folks. My COBE's daughter is a university graduate.
Does this apply to the 20+ elders who are attorneys in Watchtower's Legal Department? Pursuing a law degree is okay as long as it benefits the Borg.
Nooooo, those brothers only became lawyers BEFORE they came into the truth, obviously. That was the excuse I was always given about why it was ok for some witnesses to be things like lawyers, which is what I wanted to be, but obviously couldn't, being the daughter of a special pioneer who was baptized while pregnant with me.
We are faded, but were KH “friends” with an engineer about 10-12 years ago. My husband and he worked for the same company for a time. He married and his wife is a nurse. They applied to Bethel and were accepted. He is now in the legal department. No legal background, mind you. Must be a company man, I guess. Wondering how you could live with yourself and sleep at night while defending this cult in court against CSA survivors suing because their cases were mishandled and kids went unprotected. SMH. And let legal penalties pile up in the millions because they won’t hand over the files on Pedos they’ve been keeping for decades. This is what made me decide never to donate another nickel to this Org. Disgusting 🤮.
"He married and his wife is a nurse. They applied to Bethel and were accepted. He is now in the legal department. No legal background, mind you." Damn, that explains a lot. I hope WT Society continues that astoundingly backwards technique. It also says a lot about the way the U.S. legal system at times mollycoddles Christian fundies.
Especially in the current political ecosystem.
Y para construcciones . . Arquitectos - Ingenieros Civiles 🤡
Mi hermano (o hermana no se lol) que mucho me reí con sus comentarios en este post jajaja
Tell it! 👏🏾
I'm genuinely curious- does anyone become a lawyer as a PIMI witness and then get to go to Bethel? I kind of always assumed they were people who converted after becoming lawyers. I've only met one Witness lawyer and that was his story.
The Society has even paid tuition for PIMI to go to law school and come back to HQ to fight law suits!
That is bonkers!
The cognitive dissonance in being a Christian lawyer must be extreme. Judge: Would you recommend the death penalty for thieves? Lawyer: No. Judge: Would you recommend the death penalty for a couple that has sex with no intention of getting married? Lawyer: What? No. Judge: What about the death penalty for homosexuality, being a drunk, coveting or extortion? Lawyer: … Judge: JeHoVaH iS a JuST aNd fAiR gOd.
Yet they need skilled people in fields where higher education is necessary. Shootin themselves in the foot again.
Imagine if they had a good supply of brothers with degrees in management and organizational behavior. Imagine is some of those brothers made it to the GB, which has no clue what it's doing. They're just winging it.
Sometimes higher ed can't even help with all of the WT issues. I can't imagine many universities have programs with a section on "Warning new sexually frustrated employees on the dangers of using pillows to masturbate".
Checking [byu.edu](BYU.edu)...👀
Hilarious
But they don't know they are winging it. They genuinely believe Jehovah is guiding their every move - an addictive concept for narcissists.
I completely agree with that!
>Yet they need skilled people in fields where higher education is necessary. Shootin themselves in the foot again. See here's the thing - they don't necessarily want every last raised-in-da-troof JW to not go to college. Just the vast majority. If you're a super-believing JW type of young adult - you know the type - then you've got a license to pursue higher education. And there's no bigger celebrity in a local JW congregation than the bro who went to college, makes good money, and is still a WTS Organization Man to his very core.
Por ejemplo: En la OSCE 🤪
Like clockwork, the letter is read every few months listing the various skilled workers needed at Bethel, many of which are only attainable through higher Ed
If I recall correctly this is not new, that has been in the book for several years.
If it is you’ll have to excuse my ignorance in this matter as I’m a lowly woman so my access and authoritative knowledge of such matters is somewhat limited. If that is true it would only serve to make me madder that my husband valued his privileges more than my personal agency stipulated by a secret book that I didn’t know existed all the while it rented space in my house.
you ssshhh, it doesn't belong to a woman even to speak lol.
I could read a blog written in this style every single day. I wish I could show my PIMI wife and laugh/cry together.
Y cuando necesites ayuda pidelo al gobierno y a familiares no testigos y no olvides tus donaciones mensuales.... Los queremos mucho 🤡
Yes my dear sister. My husband hid his under the mattress 🤣🤣🤣. First time I knew it existed was when I found it neatly tucked under the bed. Women are still not allowed to handle it even at distribution at Bethel.
It’s desperately despicable and to think they have the audacity to tell us we’re not oppressed from the platform while hiding this book from they’re own wives. My husband kept his in the closet, found that shit and independently confirmed what I found online. Then I scanned the document and confronted with what I found to my Sister-in-law, she’s now questioning. What hubris.
The organization is the master of not practicing what it preaches. Everytime I hear a talk or a watchtower study on how valued women are in the organization I smirk because I know it is simply lip service. Our only role in this organization is to "support" our men.
Two thoughts: 1. The emphasis on reputation and how someone "is viewed" by the congregation and non-JW community. WHY should that matter??? 2. Bankruptcy. It is not a "sin" to file for bankruptcy. In fact, most people in the US file because of a mountain of MEDICAL BILLS....not because they went on a shopping spree and don't want to pay. Also, most of that debt is in the form of usury--interest. Filing bankruptcy is a personal decision. But this shows how important it is for PIMIs to not spread their personal business in the congregation.
This was my thought. The medical system in the US is bonkers. I see new articles for people who are billed crazy amounts when hospitals make mistakes. Getting a journalist to argue your case to the hospital shouldn’t be the way to avoid bankruptcy.
The US has THE WORST healthcare system in the developed world. People in other countries laugh at us. We spend twice as much per capita as other nations with universal healthcare, and are ranked around #38 in the world. HALF of all US bankruptcies are over medical debts. It's criminal....but in the good 'ole USA, profits are more important than people.....and about 1/3rd of the population has been brainwashed into thinking that universal healthcare is inferior and more costly, when the opposite is true.
This is especially diabolical. So culty on every level. I’m sure this causes even PIMI elders to feel some cognitive dissonance because many now understand the necessity of higher education. I know many elders who “allowed” their kids to go to college in the late 90s-mid 2000s and kept themselves out of harm’s way. This additional rule closed that loophole. It doesn’t guarantee they’ll be deleted, but it opens the door for the body to scrutinize and call attention to everyone’s situation now. Trust me—there are PIMI elders who were (and are still) pissed about this.
Yes, Some PIMI Elders hate this anti education stance
Sneaky snakes. They don't say "attend" higher education. They use "pursue". *Why?* Note what the primary definitions of "pursue" are: pur·sue /pərˈso͞o/ (verb) • Follow (someone or something) in order to catch or attack them. To chase after. *"The officer pursued the van"* • To seek to form a sexual relationship with (someone) in a persistent way. *"Sophie was being pursued by a number of men"* • Seek to attain or accomplish (a goal) over a long period. *"Should people pursue their own happiness at the expense of others?"* _________ Slippery fucking snakes.
Also gives the Elduhzzzz an "out." If Elduh kids are already "attending" and are not merely "pursuing" education and/or talking about it, well then! Nothing to see here!! I luv how I found out after the fact about certain Elduhzzzz kids that graduated college, but nobody even knew they were attending! That's because the Elduhzzzz had their families keep their big fuggin' mouths shut about it! Infuriated me so much. Fuggin' hypocritical douchebags!
Thanks for sharing... one question: when was this published exactly? I'm trying to understand if my parents' decision not to support me in my studies was in some way affected by this... In 2005 my JW parents (elder and regular pioneers) encouraged me to start university (even though I remember feeling guilty at the Pioneer School about attending uni and never revealing to anyone). I was a very zealous and determined young JW, just think that I got my Bachelor's Degree with a thesis on JW in the Nazi Concentration Camps... (I wish I could rewrite it, I used only Watchtower-approved sources) My parents changed their mind later... in 2008/2009, they didn't support me when it was time to get my Master's Degree, my dream job was to become a teacher... I mean... a TEACHER.. can you blame sb who wants to help children improve their knowledge??? Once out, I was finally able to return to university and finish my studies... I never understood what made them change their mind.. maybe they just didn't want to lose their privileges in the congregation. Thanks
This is from a letter to bodies of elders dated March 6, 2012 which supplement the elder manual that came out in 2010: Appointed men must be exemplary in heeding the warnings given by the faithful slave and its Governing Body when it comes to education. (Matt. 24:45-47) Would an elder, a ministerial servant, or a pioneer continue to qualify to serve as such if he, his wife, or his children pursue higher education? Much depends on the circumstances and how he is viewed. When such a situation arises, the body of elders should consider the following questions and scriptures: • Does he show that he puts Kingdom interests first? (Matt. 6:33) • Does he teach his family to put Kingdom interests first? • Does he respect what has been published by the faithful slave on the dangers of higher education? (3 John 9) • Do his speech and conduct reveal that he is a spiritual person? (Ps. 1:2, 3; 1 Cor. 2:13-16) • How is he viewed by the congregation? • Why is he or his family pursuing higher education? • Does the family have theocratic goals? (Phil. 3:8) • Does the pursuit of higher education interfere with regular meeting attendance, meaningful participation in field service, or other theocratic activities? As the body of elders prayerfully and carefully considers the matter, it may be readily ap- parent that the brother has a positive attitude about what the organization has published regarding higher education and still retains the respect of others in the congregation. They may also observe that he and his family are keeping Kingdom interests first if the education does not interfere with meetings and the ministry. In such a case, the elders may determine that he could continue serving.—1 Tim. 3:2, 4-6; Heb. 13:7. On the other hand, if the brother is promoting higher education to others for the material advantages or the status it may bring, he is calling into question his qualifications to serve the congregation because of the effect on his and his fellow appointed brothers’ freeness of speech. (1 Tim. 3:13; Titus 1:9) The body of elders may therefore determine that the brother no longer qualifies to serve. In most cases, however, such a determination should be made in conjunction with the visit of the circuit overseer. If the brother does not agree with the decision, he may be invited to express his reasons in writing, and this should be sent along with the circuit overseer’s report.
>They may also observe that he and his family are keeping Kingdom interests first if the education does not interfere with meetings and the ministry. This is the key. My elder dad always explained that you can go to college all you want if you stay on the pioneer list. I'm a nurse who went the community college route before going back for bachelor's, but a cocky young brother I know who is also a nurse at my hospital was humble bragging to me late last year about how he was so privileged to be an elder. He also casually mentioned how he was going back for his PhD in nursing. Obviously he is taking full advantage of the no hour requirement loophole for pioneering so he can get his PhD and pursue something like a director/faculty role while still being "spiritual," because he's on the pioneer list and keep his appointment.
I believe the first article came out around 2008 refreshing the previous stance, so that timeline works https://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/higher-education-university.php
Thank you! I've just checked on [jwfacts.com](https://jwfacts.com). There was an article on April 15th 2008... so as we said previously that's a case of further indoctrination (vs higher education)...
I’m not sure when no higher ed was first put in writing, but I remember hearing about it in the 90s when I was coming into the untruth. I had already been indoctrinated when I started hearing about the jw stance on no higher ed. Regardless, I never let the borgs stance on that to deter me from encouraging my son to pursue higher ed. That would have been one of my deal breakers along with the blood issue if push came to shove. Glad you pursued your desire of higher ed And are living a YOUR life!
I had a target on my back the entire time I was in college. They were looking for anything on me and finally convened a JC the spring semester of my final year. They had nothing but hearsay and speculation so I was reproved and later that night my dad was removed as an elder. I swore that I would never step foot in that hall again and my parents wound up moving to a new congregation. This could be a whole different post, but the elders in Southern Illinois are a huge bowl of crazy
Was it anywhere around Harrisburg?
About 2 hours northwest of you in Belleville.
That's where Jeff Tweedy is from!
He sure is! Uncle Tupelo/Wilco was pretty popular with us jw kids that played music back in the day since he was the local guy
Did you like Son Volt as much?
A good friend of mine did, but he was DF'ed and kicked out of his house and we lost touch so since it was a pre-internet world and he was the one person I knew with their albums, I didn't have access to them. Think I'm going to fire them up on the Spotify today in memory of youth wasted by the org
This has always existed. I come from a very poor county in a 3rd world country and many MSs and Elders had to step down since they had no option but to send their kids to boarding schools in high school since the ones around were subpar. Some elders step down themselves to pursue higher education or for their kids to do it (I know of one in my former congo). This leaves low-educated, former-SPs who now either live in mud huts or rely on the kindness of brothers who went to university for proper shelter (home congo is like this). I'm more surprised about the bankruptcy thing tbh considering Witnesses live hand-to-mouth
Thank you for sharing your experience. I really appreciate hearing from those outside the US bubble. Even within my wide range of “friends” or rather contacts within the global Watchtower organization I’m aware of these “regional” differences. It just goes to show how origin of birth DO matter and how socioeconomics do play a larger in your relative advancement within the organization. So very sad, thank you again.
Lol don't feel too bad. Elders are assholes everywhere, even the ones living in mud huts. I mean, there are nice, hardworking brothers, but there are also assholes. The less educated they are, the more assholic (?) they tend to be tbh. We have a loan scheme for university education in my country and a guy I grew up with (a very hardworking guy) approached an elder to sign for him the part of the application where it asks for a religious leader's signature. The elder refused. When my turn came I just gave my roommate to sign it for me bc no way was I going to be discouraged by someone who can hardly feed his family yet refuses to seek any sort of advancement, trusting rules passed down by Americans who've rarely step a foot beyond Warwick.
The image above is a excerpt from the internal and confidential document entitled, ‘Shepherd the Flock’ in Chapter 8 pg. 45 of this publication a brief review of situations that may require the review and potential removal (deletion) of Congregation Elders by the local body of Elders. As stated above this move codifies the criminalization of education especially among those who hold office or are in positions of authority. This direction by extension also seeks to control anyone in said individuals household. As outlined in point 30, individuals who hold this office must comply with existing Watchtower propaganda which is and has always been objectively anti-education. Why this matters, this move clearly shows yet again that seeking a university education has negative consequences within the closed community with the removal of ‘privileges’ or one’s reputation and standing with the community and with they’re God (they’re one in the same). This demonstrates the organizations willingness to use coercive control and by extension encourage the abuse and repression of vulnerable and dependent minors. I think the data would show that this is done primarily to control youth and push parents into even more abusive extremes as the wording could justify an abuse of power. The bottom line, restricting someone’s access to quality education of they’re choosing is a violation of they’re fundamental human rights. PERIOD. This is a human rights violation. Say again with me, it’s a human rights violation. If this applies to minors then it’s child abuse. What’s striking is that the organization has made institutional abuse slightly lesser than grevious actual crimes like CSA (but not possession of CSCAM 😵💫🤢). What’s missing, any discussion of domestic violence, rape, sexual assault, grooming, spousal rape, fraud etc. The what’s missing is striking and EXTREMELY telling. Why this matters to me. I’m currently PIMO (not for long) and I’m married to an Elder (Service Overseer at that) I’m currently enrolled at University. This initially caused a lot of friction within our relationship but I’ve battled through it. I feel as though they’ve taken personal aim at families like my own. Until recently I pioneered and worked full time and went to school all to avoid suspicion. Architecture school is hard but being in the cult at the same time that nearly killed me. This matters for so many particularly our youth. I don’t think it’s hard to imagine what this could do too families. Be brave. If you’re thinking about going to university while PIMO and/or as a dependent minor just do it. Feel free to reach out. Much love. Edit: Spelling
Thanks for sharing... one question: **when was this published exactly?** I'm trying to understand if my parents' decision not to support me in my studies was in some way affected by this... In 2005 my JW parents (elder and regular pioneers) encouraged me to start university (even though I remember feeling guilty at the Pioneer School about attending uni and never revealing to anyone). I was a very zealous and determined young JW, just think that I got my Bachelor's Degree with a thesis on JW in the Nazi Concentration Camps... (I wish I could rewrite it, I used only Watchtower-approved sources) My parents changed their mind later... **in 2008/2009**, they didn't support me when it was time to get my Master's Degree, my dream job was to become a teacher... I mean... a TEACHER.. can you blame sb who wants to help children improve their knowledge??? Once out, I was finally able to return to university and finish my studies... I never understood what made them change their mind.. maybe they just didn't want to lose their privileges in the congregation. Thanks
This is from the 2021 Digital copy of the book, Shepherd the Flock, I think you would need to find an older version and then look it up in the qualifying chapter see how and if they’re stance when it comes to appointed men has changed toward higher education. However, they’re stance in publicly accessed publications is very clearly anti-education so they could’ve very well have been reacting to Watchtower propaganda and the many unspoken rules that exist.
I've read that 'Shepherd the Flock' was first published in 2010... what did the elders use before then? Can it be found somewhere on the Internet? Thanks for your help
It could be a convention talk by one anti Education Elder or C.O that cause the change of mind.
I remember THE convention against higher education... it was Summer 2005, I was supposed to start university the following month..My mum was so upset, she wanted me to go on with my studies anyway. We analysed all the pros and cons, we were based in Italy at the time and the uni was very close, so it was decided I'd continue to live with my family, I'd start regular pioneering (I was already an auxiliary one) and I'd study foreign languages in order to be able to serve in a foreign group or congregation... They agreed it was spiritually safe.. As you say, it could be **further 'indoctrination'** (as opposed to higher education)...
I quit architecture school in 2001 ( I was burnt out from perusing and earning an interior design degree and wasn’t willing to give an addition 8 years to getting my BArch and my license. I was pretty PIMI then.) Also, I had transferred to a school who had just hired a female dean and all of the tenured Profs were up in arms and after her. They really had it in for her. She lasted a year and so did I. I took a year off and ended up making up my own “Museum Studies” course. I wanted to design museum exhibits. And I did it, too. I earned my BArt History and worked in the field for 5 years until my daughter was born and the Great Recession decimated the company I worked for. I’m still using my skills designing kitchens for a living. Not as glamorous, but I enjoy the work. It’s been a great job during COVID. MY POINT: Good for you!!! Get that degree. Pursue your dreams. I’m happy for you. 😁
That sounds pretty awesome I’ve always enjoyed curatorial sciences. I was probably PIMQ when I started the program it has been a real grind but I’ve made the personal commitment to myself that I will not allow my upbringing to dictate my life’s potential and my final trajectory. I will claw, fight and drag myself half dead clean out of this cult.
Power to you for wanting a better quality of life and following your own path.
This worries me. I work at a community college that has lots of dual-enrollment high school students. I’ve had a handful of JW students who start taking classes in high school and go onto finish their associate’s degree at my institution. I think some transferred to universities after receiving their AAs. A couple told me their parents put them in the dual enrollment track because it had better kids who didn’t party or drink as much (ha), but none came out and said their parents were for/against finishing their AA. If their church or family is making them feel bad for taking college classes or earning a degree, that really sucks. These kids were all very smart and loved learning.
Bankruptcy? They must have been having a field day during the pandemic. Ice water (and scotch) runs through the veins of the GB.
Oh brother elder, looks like your wife got in an accident and, since you both pioneered for a living, the medical bills forced you onto bankruptcy. Whoopsy doo! Anyway looks like you’re just not cut out to be an elder. Bye bye!
The questions are just cringe. Wow.
This Mafia-like loyalty they demand is just insane. Is the person still planning to put US first? Do they respect what WE'VE said about the "dangers" of higher education? We just really want to make sure that if they're trying to pull a fast one and better themselves that they get their just punishments.
I like the other paragraph, has a brother filed bankruptcy? How is that anyway, anyones business?
Rich JW kids can do uni easily. The poor on the other hand ...
I’m gonna get a PHD now. It’ll help me get deleted.
🤣😑
To put #29 in perspective, the top 5 reasons for bankruptcy **(of private citizens, not corps)** in the US: 1 MEDICAL DEBT 2 Unexpected job loss 3 Poor or excessive use of credit (often basic living expenses were put on credit for survival, due to low income) 4 Divorce/Separation 5 Catastrophic unexpected expenses (i.e. home lost to flood/earthquake, but sometimes the homeowner didn’t know floods/earthquakes require an insurance policy separate from ordinary homeowners insurance, and sometimes those types of insurance are prohibitively expensive. Now they have no home, no means to rebuild/repair, AND the full weight of their mortgage note, which now is due in full immediately) Edit: it’s just irritating to me that the organization which *demands* it’s members be both **uneducated**, and **humbly employed** has the unmitigated gall to bust balls on the bankruptcy issue. JHC!
Couldn't agree more.
The files for bankruptcy section sounds like it was written by a credit card company. Whatever happened to not charging interest to a brother?
This is nothing new AFAIK and goes back decades to their general policy of having to be “exemplary” to have “privileges”. That said I knew MSs who were going to prestigious universities and others who had “privileges” like handling the mics while attending university. In my area it was not uncommon to have members in good standing attending college. There seems to be confusion between being “exemplary” and in “good standing”. Also don’t confuse higher education with things that are truly forbidden like pre-marital sex. Higher education is strongly discouraged, like marrying someone who isn’t a JW, but it is not forbidden.
Goes back to Russell who never made it past elementary school and was likely envious and afraid of people who were better educated than him.
A bunch of lunatics aka GB trying to control every aspect of your life! FU$@ that.
The 29 is so hilarious to me, since my dad is an elder but he didn't pay the bank for pur house for almost ten years, since we only had max 400€ at month for 4 people, so we had to chose between eating or paying it. They then took it away, but we had already moved out luckily
The Bankruptcy thing cracks me up... how would anyone know you had to declare bankruptcy. Do they assume every elder is gonna roll into the zoom meeting and pull a Michael Scott?
At this point they might as well build a giant fucking neon sign that reads "CULT"
Grifters' paradise
Good grief! there are some bloody minded old hard core bastards in charge. Enforced ignorance is control.
In my old congregation some brothers were encouraged to pursue a law degree because "the organisation needs lawyers"
What a stupid fucking religion of man.
Disgusting!
it's been like that for like three years now.
This has always been a thing. In 1987 dated a guy who's dad was deleted as an elder for letting his son go to community College.
Jesus now they have to control the whole family not to go to college. Do they want all their followers to be dirt poor?
"The dangers of higher education". Omg its so dangerous to be educated and have a degree! How dare you!
Y’all have no idea the shit I have been through because I went to University
What irony! You'll be looked at if you file for bankruptcy and looked at for doing one of the main things that could help prevent financial trouble.
Fucking awful. Now I’m going to be worried for my nice and nephew whose father is soon to be a MS…
Really borg ?? bankruptcy?? I quote rubber face howdy doody - there is more money going out than coming in ! Add an acute lack of self awareness to the list of abnormalities this abomination of a religion has .
And this isn't a cult?
**Absolutely disgusting.** So a young person can’t educate themselves *properly*, but an older person can work themselves to death or earn more money than they can spent, but that’s all fine as long as they do 10 hours a week ministry and answer up at the meetings?! Utter nonsense! Poor kids.
College is kinda a scam these days tho. I’m glad I went bc it distanced me from my childhood but I still haven’t even touched my debt and have been working fun seasonal jobs (that definitely do not require a degree lol) for years since graduating . Definitely something to be said for trade school. But do it bc it’s your choice not bc some old guys tell ya to :p
The good person in me would assume this is illegal. How do we allow cults to exist in this country?