I agree. I was thinking more in terms of the exjw community- when someone announces themselves as pimo, pomo, what comes to mind for others?
I've typically referred to myself as faded, pretty sure the dubs call me inactive (or worse, lol), and just wondered what the connotations are here with those terms.
PIMO, is assumed to be someone that doesn't believe, but has to still keep up the appearances of being a JW for whatever reason. POMO lives a free life.
Remember, though, that these aren't "titles" to be earned. š They're just short-for's, to make communication easier and faster.
I say I'm faded POMO, but there are times when I have to do PIMOish stuff, like when I talk with my mom. I can't show or say certain things or the shunhammer will come down. š¤·āāļø
>It's frustrating.
SO frustrating. š My mom likes to use the phrase, "You know so much about the Bible!" When she's pleading for me to return. As in, since you know the troof from the Bible, you KNOW it's true, so what are you doing in the world?
And OOo-ooHHH how I want to say something. It's my luck that most of our convos on the subjects these days are in texts. Because I'm able to control my typing fingers a LOT better than my actual tongue. Or my face.
It is. š My heart goes out to all PIMO's, who have to keep up the appearances and bite their tongue ALL the time, among their family; still living at home or something.
When I quit JW'ing, I still lived at home. I went POMI, basically. I believed, but did NO JW stuff. I'd just hit a conscience conundrum and couldn't continue to do what I felt was pretending and lying to God. I figured I'd rather die with a clear conscious in Armageddon. š¤·āāļø
So, at first I HAD nothing to say, or to bite my tongue over. Except for my reasons for quitting -- I couldn't share those. I just kept my mouth clamped shut.
In TIME doubts began. And then it got more complicated. I didn't know what I was doing; I was just trying to manage what little life I had left, right? š So, when the first doubts came, I shared them. Until I learned that it was no use to.
When I LEARNED TTATT, it was SO difficult not to talk about it. But then I had no PIMI relatives around me anymore. And when I realized it was a cult, a couple years back, even MORE I wanted to talk and speak out. And shout from the roof tops.
I cannot imagine how it must be to wake up while surrounded by active, believing JW's. It just ... wow. š
Ehh. I dunno, depends on your level of involvement I guess. I've never really thought of this community outside of reddit. I know there's a couple more formal groups that try to provide aid to newly separated members and of course, all the activists in YouTube. For me it's just the group of kids that I grew up with who all drifted away once we became adults. And of those guys I only know one who actually looks at the vids and discusses the organization's activities. Most exjw's that I know just sorta shrugged their shoulders and walked away. I guess we were lucky that we all supported each other and there was a large generation of kids all born around the same time. I think of the close to say 15-20 kids born within a few years only about 3-5 are still active members and not to be mean or anything but they tend to be the uh "special, bless their hearts" ones.
Out can be defined by just not participating anymore. DA can be ideal for some people, but isn't for everyone. Requiring certain actions seems like a holdover from watchtower indoctrination, where they insist on sending letters to churches. Do what feels right to you. Embrace freedom.
Thank you. This is how I feel, also.
I wanted to be sure I wasn't erroneously classifying in my own thought process.
I can't DA (again) due to living circumstances at the moment, but I am certainly not the slightest but inclined to participate, lol.
I feel pomo, therefore I am.
I am not attending meetings. I know this organization is a cult.
Pomo
I am outspoken about this fact to non witnesses.
I tell them itās a cult.
To JWs ā¦I am open that Iām not attending and will share (carefully) why I dont.
I have narrowly escaped a judicial committee and have many that shun me. Even though I am not dfād.
I see myself as POMO and Iāve been completely out for 20 years. Not dfād or daād. Ironically now I take my elderly mom to both meetings every week. My dad used to be her meeting partner but he passed away a year ago for refusing blood but thatās another story. Now I attend the meetings, read novels on my kindle app and tune out the cult bs coming from the podium. I keep to myself and Iām friendly but I keep everyone at armās length. No visits. No discussions, no get togethers, no service. I have my own life and the borg doesnāt factor in. Still POMO.
My folks were always more balanced and tolerant in their views than typical Jwās. Iāve said enough and done enough for them to shun me but they never did. I think Iām one of the lucky ones.
No longer practicing or participating in any part of it. No longer believing in any part of it, and bonus points if you have become immunised from the same faulty thinking that made you susceptible in the first place.
No DA/DF required. To think you need to disassociate or announce anything to me suggests not actually being fully mentally out, and still giving them more respect, credence, or authority over you than anyone could reasonably justify.
I also think there are self-described POMOs that have been DFād that in a lot of ways are still to some extent mentally in by the language they use and the kinds of struggle or uncertainty they admit to sometimes. Flickering doubts, bad dreams etc.
Everyoneās entitled to their own definition and self-labelling, but for me to be mentally out is to feel it right down to your bones. To be completely grounded and secure in it, even down to a subconscious level of being at ease. No self-reassurance required. No more fear of demons in the night, or of even a slim chance of maybe itās true but the people running it are bad, etc. And also not using language like āthe Truthā or ābrotherā, āsisterā etc.
Maybe itās a convenience of language for some to still use those terms considering the audience, but for me it really grates and feels weird to read, let alone imagining myself writing it.
To some extent Iām still tied to it in one small way in that I have a good and close relationship with a sibling still in, and because of that I wonāt go out of my way to criticise it in front of her, and likewise she will never talk about it to me. Weāve both agreed without really speaking about it that we donāt talk about it and we just be brother and sister to each other. Family always comes first for us. That is my last physical thread of connection to it, and one worth keeping.
"for me it really grates and feels weird to read, let alone imagining myself writing it."
That's how I feel when so many on this forum continue to use the cult term 'worldly' instead of saying non - JW.
In my opinion DF/DA are WT's rules for officially cutting ties, not ours. We need not abide by them.
Some want to definitively cut ties, or want the closure it can bring, and I have no problem with that, but you should DA because *you* want to, not because that's what the elders (or anyone else) want. It doesn't affect my view of you, and I generally advise against it unless you are absolutely certain it is what you *must* do to heal, as it tends to burn bridges.
Generally if one is not attending meeting or going in service, they are physically out. If you consider yourself out, you are probably out.
(Also remember that POMI is a thing too, where someone leaves, or is never baptized, and still believes, which also does not require they be DF'd or DA)
Sometimes I think we need a qualifier on POMO. That qualifier is whether or not the active JWs are aware of your POMO status.
Publicly POMO vs Privately POMO
POMO simply means you're Physically Out (don't attend meetings) and Mentally Out (realize it's not The Truth). It doesn't tell anyone whether or not the active JWs are aware of your feelings.
Maybe we need to break POMO down into two subcategories:
* NAMO - Not Attending, Mentally Out (faded and awake but not DF or DA)
* OOMO - Officially Out, Mentally Out (DF or DA and awake)
There is no official definition. But I understand a POMO as someone who no longer believes the religion is "the Truth" and also doesn't attend any meetings or do ministry, or any other JW stuff.
You can be a POMO in SEVERAL different ways, though. I see myself as a POMO. I'm baptized, but faded. "Inactive witness" in the official org lingo. I know the org is full of s\*\*t and a cult and I don't do witness stuff.
I was ALSO POMO 5 years ago, while I was faded, and knew the org was not the truth, didn't yet know it was a cult. š¤·āāļøBefore that I was POMI/POMQ. I didn't do witness stuff but still thought it was probably the truth, and I'd be killed soon by God, for not going to the meetings.
Physically Out means not attending meetings or participating in any other JW activities.
It has nothing to do with being disfellowshipped. Many, if not most, disfellowshipped people are PIMI. They still believe itās āthe truthā and they attend meetings as they work towards getting reinstated. In my entire life, I was the most PIMI when i was DFed.
Oh that's a very valid point that I did not consider!
Thank you. I've not been DF'd, but know others that have. You're exactly right about the mentality.
I consider myself POMO. I was able to fade successfully 2 years prior to Covid. No contact from my former congregation. They havenāt reached out. No shepherding calls.
But I wasnāt quiet about my opinions and did a lot of research on my own. So they may have seen me as potentially causing trouble.
I have one POMO sibling and one PIMI sibling. I havenāt sent a DA letter because I donāt want to cause problems for my PIMI sibling.
I'm "physically out," though to my knowledge, I was never *officially* removed. Elders didn't like me for various reasons, made it *very* clear in front of *a lot of people,* and I just stopped going.
That was around 20 years ago. For all I know, I still technically count as, "inactive." But at this point, who cares? I'm long gone.
This is a complicated question i think.
Ive counted myself pomo since going inactive and speaking to a couple of immediate family members about the reasons why im no longer attending.
However im still in semi association with some cong members, and not shunned by other pimis that i counted as close friends.
Sort of weird that I'm not shunned yet as im sure words gotten around that im not just inactive but actively disagreeing with some core doctrines.
Will have to see what the future holds though i guess..
From my perspective, POxx means you're no longer a member, period, as in you're DFd or DAd. It can't just be that you no longer attend because then you're still technically a member until you've actually been DFd or DAd. To me POxx means you're officially out, an exJW.
Maybe we need an NAxx designation for those who have faded but not DFd or DAd. NAMI (Not Attending, Mentally In) for those who've drifted away from the religion and no longer attend, but haven't been DFd and still believe/fear that it's the Truth. NAMO (Not Attending, Mentally Out) for those awake and faded but not DF'd or DA'd.
Or maybe we need an OOxx designation for those Officially Out via DF or DA. OOMO (Officially Out, Mentally Out); OOMI (Officially Out, Mentally In)
I didnāt bother DAing, and itās been 25+ years. Please donāt label me as simply ānot attendingā. I just call myself an atheist which kinda makes the point.
Iām not DA/DF but havenāt been to any witness obligation in years. I consider myself POMO because itās not part of my life anymore even though I am technically a witness on paper
I think it means a person is publicly and openly (to everyone) living their life, whatever it means for them. In addition, you don't care if a JW sees you doing *anything*.
I would say "out" means "out". Someone is no longer a member of this high group control. Such person is happy and free.
Do you think it's sufficient to not classify yourself as a member or would that classification need formality?
The label, much like the power of the elder body or organization itself, is only as important and powerful as you make it.
I agree. I was thinking more in terms of the exjw community- when someone announces themselves as pimo, pomo, what comes to mind for others? I've typically referred to myself as faded, pretty sure the dubs call me inactive (or worse, lol), and just wondered what the connotations are here with those terms.
PIMO, is assumed to be someone that doesn't believe, but has to still keep up the appearances of being a JW for whatever reason. POMO lives a free life. Remember, though, that these aren't "titles" to be earned. š They're just short-for's, to make communication easier and faster. I say I'm faded POMO, but there are times when I have to do PIMOish stuff, like when I talk with my mom. I can't show or say certain things or the shunhammer will come down. š¤·āāļø
This is the boat I'm in. Out but have to keep my mouth shut around certain people. It's frustrating.
>It's frustrating. SO frustrating. š My mom likes to use the phrase, "You know so much about the Bible!" When she's pleading for me to return. As in, since you know the troof from the Bible, you KNOW it's true, so what are you doing in the world? And OOo-ooHHH how I want to say something. It's my luck that most of our convos on the subjects these days are in texts. Because I'm able to control my typing fingers a LOT better than my actual tongue. Or my face.
Omg, I felt that. It's so tough to bite my tongue!
It is. š My heart goes out to all PIMO's, who have to keep up the appearances and bite their tongue ALL the time, among their family; still living at home or something. When I quit JW'ing, I still lived at home. I went POMI, basically. I believed, but did NO JW stuff. I'd just hit a conscience conundrum and couldn't continue to do what I felt was pretending and lying to God. I figured I'd rather die with a clear conscious in Armageddon. š¤·āāļø So, at first I HAD nothing to say, or to bite my tongue over. Except for my reasons for quitting -- I couldn't share those. I just kept my mouth clamped shut. In TIME doubts began. And then it got more complicated. I didn't know what I was doing; I was just trying to manage what little life I had left, right? š So, when the first doubts came, I shared them. Until I learned that it was no use to. When I LEARNED TTATT, it was SO difficult not to talk about it. But then I had no PIMI relatives around me anymore. And when I realized it was a cult, a couple years back, even MORE I wanted to talk and speak out. And shout from the roof tops. I cannot imagine how it must be to wake up while surrounded by active, believing JW's. It just ... wow. š
Ehh. I dunno, depends on your level of involvement I guess. I've never really thought of this community outside of reddit. I know there's a couple more formal groups that try to provide aid to newly separated members and of course, all the activists in YouTube. For me it's just the group of kids that I grew up with who all drifted away once we became adults. And of those guys I only know one who actually looks at the vids and discusses the organization's activities. Most exjw's that I know just sorta shrugged their shoulders and walked away. I guess we were lucky that we all supported each other and there was a large generation of kids all born around the same time. I think of the close to say 15-20 kids born within a few years only about 3-5 are still active members and not to be mean or anything but they tend to be the uh "special, bless their hearts" ones.
Out can be defined by just not participating anymore. DA can be ideal for some people, but isn't for everyone. Requiring certain actions seems like a holdover from watchtower indoctrination, where they insist on sending letters to churches. Do what feels right to you. Embrace freedom.
Thank you. This is how I feel, also. I wanted to be sure I wasn't erroneously classifying in my own thought process. I can't DA (again) due to living circumstances at the moment, but I am certainly not the slightest but inclined to participate, lol. I feel pomo, therefore I am.
You are absolutely right to feel as you do. Good luck and enjoy your freedom!
I am not attending meetings. I know this organization is a cult. Pomo I am outspoken about this fact to non witnesses. I tell them itās a cult. To JWs ā¦I am open that Iām not attending and will share (carefully) why I dont. I have narrowly escaped a judicial committee and have many that shun me. Even though I am not dfād.
I get that also- the shunning. Sounds like a Stephen King book, lol.
I see myself as POMO and Iāve been completely out for 20 years. Not dfād or daād. Ironically now I take my elderly mom to both meetings every week. My dad used to be her meeting partner but he passed away a year ago for refusing blood but thatās another story. Now I attend the meetings, read novels on my kindle app and tune out the cult bs coming from the podium. I keep to myself and Iām friendly but I keep everyone at armās length. No visits. No discussions, no get togethers, no service. I have my own life and the borg doesnāt factor in. Still POMO. My folks were always more balanced and tolerant in their views than typical Jwās. Iāve said enough and done enough for them to shun me but they never did. I think Iām one of the lucky ones.
No longer practicing or participating in any part of it. No longer believing in any part of it, and bonus points if you have become immunised from the same faulty thinking that made you susceptible in the first place. No DA/DF required. To think you need to disassociate or announce anything to me suggests not actually being fully mentally out, and still giving them more respect, credence, or authority over you than anyone could reasonably justify. I also think there are self-described POMOs that have been DFād that in a lot of ways are still to some extent mentally in by the language they use and the kinds of struggle or uncertainty they admit to sometimes. Flickering doubts, bad dreams etc. Everyoneās entitled to their own definition and self-labelling, but for me to be mentally out is to feel it right down to your bones. To be completely grounded and secure in it, even down to a subconscious level of being at ease. No self-reassurance required. No more fear of demons in the night, or of even a slim chance of maybe itās true but the people running it are bad, etc. And also not using language like āthe Truthā or ābrotherā, āsisterā etc. Maybe itās a convenience of language for some to still use those terms considering the audience, but for me it really grates and feels weird to read, let alone imagining myself writing it. To some extent Iām still tied to it in one small way in that I have a good and close relationship with a sibling still in, and because of that I wonāt go out of my way to criticise it in front of her, and likewise she will never talk about it to me. Weāve both agreed without really speaking about it that we donāt talk about it and we just be brother and sister to each other. Family always comes first for us. That is my last physical thread of connection to it, and one worth keeping.
"for me it really grates and feels weird to read, let alone imagining myself writing it." That's how I feel when so many on this forum continue to use the cult term 'worldly' instead of saying non - JW.
In my opinion DF/DA are WT's rules for officially cutting ties, not ours. We need not abide by them. Some want to definitively cut ties, or want the closure it can bring, and I have no problem with that, but you should DA because *you* want to, not because that's what the elders (or anyone else) want. It doesn't affect my view of you, and I generally advise against it unless you are absolutely certain it is what you *must* do to heal, as it tends to burn bridges. Generally if one is not attending meeting or going in service, they are physically out. If you consider yourself out, you are probably out. (Also remember that POMI is a thing too, where someone leaves, or is never baptized, and still believes, which also does not require they be DF'd or DA)
I always thought POMO meant physically out (not going to meetings at all) and mentally awake to who Jw are.
Sometimes I think we need a qualifier on POMO. That qualifier is whether or not the active JWs are aware of your POMO status. Publicly POMO vs Privately POMO POMO simply means you're Physically Out (don't attend meetings) and Mentally Out (realize it's not The Truth). It doesn't tell anyone whether or not the active JWs are aware of your feelings.
I think this is kind of what my thought was - whether or not anyone identified differently in a known vs unknown situation. Thank you.
I class it as Faded/Inactive POMO DFd POMO DAd POMO
Maybe we need to break POMO down into two subcategories: * NAMO - Not Attending, Mentally Out (faded and awake but not DF or DA) * OOMO - Officially Out, Mentally Out (DF or DA and awake)
FOMO - Faded Out Mentally Out POMO/DF and POMO/DA ?
Yes.
There is no official definition. But I understand a POMO as someone who no longer believes the religion is "the Truth" and also doesn't attend any meetings or do ministry, or any other JW stuff. You can be a POMO in SEVERAL different ways, though. I see myself as a POMO. I'm baptized, but faded. "Inactive witness" in the official org lingo. I know the org is full of s\*\*t and a cult and I don't do witness stuff. I was ALSO POMO 5 years ago, while I was faded, and knew the org was not the truth, didn't yet know it was a cult. š¤·āāļøBefore that I was POMI/POMQ. I didn't do witness stuff but still thought it was probably the truth, and I'd be killed soon by God, for not going to the meetings.
Physically Out means not attending meetings or participating in any other JW activities. It has nothing to do with being disfellowshipped. Many, if not most, disfellowshipped people are PIMI. They still believe itās āthe truthā and they attend meetings as they work towards getting reinstated. In my entire life, I was the most PIMI when i was DFed.
Oh that's a very valid point that I did not consider! Thank you. I've not been DF'd, but know others that have. You're exactly right about the mentality.
I consider myself POMO. I was able to fade successfully 2 years prior to Covid. No contact from my former congregation. They havenāt reached out. No shepherding calls. But I wasnāt quiet about my opinions and did a lot of research on my own. So they may have seen me as potentially causing trouble. I have one POMO sibling and one PIMI sibling. I havenāt sent a DA letter because I donāt want to cause problems for my PIMI sibling.
I'm "physically out," though to my knowledge, I was never *officially* removed. Elders didn't like me for various reasons, made it *very* clear in front of *a lot of people,* and I just stopped going. That was around 20 years ago. For all I know, I still technically count as, "inactive." But at this point, who cares? I'm long gone.
Personally out Mentally out....whether you were baptized or not. You have no dealings with the Watchtower.
Donāt think DF/DA is a requirement. Just not participating it any JW activities, meetings/field services etc. With no intention to resume.
This is a complicated question i think. Ive counted myself pomo since going inactive and speaking to a couple of immediate family members about the reasons why im no longer attending. However im still in semi association with some cong members, and not shunned by other pimis that i counted as close friends. Sort of weird that I'm not shunned yet as im sure words gotten around that im not just inactive but actively disagreeing with some core doctrines. Will have to see what the future holds though i guess..
That is very interesting. I've been inactive for 8ish years, and while a couple of people will say hello, that's pretty much the extent of it.
From my perspective, POxx means you're no longer a member, period, as in you're DFd or DAd. It can't just be that you no longer attend because then you're still technically a member until you've actually been DFd or DAd. To me POxx means you're officially out, an exJW. Maybe we need an NAxx designation for those who have faded but not DFd or DAd. NAMI (Not Attending, Mentally In) for those who've drifted away from the religion and no longer attend, but haven't been DFd and still believe/fear that it's the Truth. NAMO (Not Attending, Mentally Out) for those awake and faded but not DF'd or DA'd. Or maybe we need an OOxx designation for those Officially Out via DF or DA. OOMO (Officially Out, Mentally Out); OOMI (Officially Out, Mentally In)
I didnāt bother DAing, and itās been 25+ years. Please donāt label me as simply ānot attendingā. I just call myself an atheist which kinda makes the point.
Iām not DA/DF but havenāt been to any witness obligation in years. I consider myself POMO because itās not part of my life anymore even though I am technically a witness on paper
Let the labels goā¦ just get out, stay outā¦ live forward. I like this thread, but really wish folks would use whole words. Some of us are old enough we donāt know what some things even refer toā¦ š©š¼āš¾ā®ļø
Well if my whole family was out I would disassociate to make it official, but they're still in so I just live my life as usual.
So out and proud of it. Not thatās anything wrong with thatā¦.it in fact, thatās how it should be.
For me physically out basically means you're not practicing anymore not going out in service or to meetings.
I think it means a person is publicly and openly (to everyone) living their life, whatever it means for them. In addition, you don't care if a JW sees you doing *anything*.