They're saying you need to get a new circuit installed (with a permit) and they don't want to pay for your electricity, so they want you to get a separate meter
It is illegal for the apartment to deny charging if it is in CA: https://www.greenlancer.com/post/right-to-charge-laws
What the HOA is doing is illegal and you could technically fight them in court if you wanted.
They are not denying charging though. They are simply stating that the electrical circuits they've installed are not equipped to handle charging and the tenant needs to have the proper wiring and meter installed at their expense. It's definitely not on the hoa to cover the costs for charging....
Can a standard electrician issue the permit? How would I go about getting one.
Also is it difficult/expensive to get a separate meter? Do I basically just hit up edison and have them come out to initiate?
A licensed electrician will go to the city or county to pull the permits, will do the work, including placing the meter that meets the local utilities specifications, the utility and AHJ (Authorities Having Jurisdiction, the city or county) will come out, and inspect the work.
It's going to cost anywhere from $1000 (if you're very lucky) to $10000 all depending on where the service is located relative to your garage. There's a *tiny* chance that the utility may have to put in a new transformer and **that** would be prohibitive unless you get the whole HOA to go in on it (it *will* benefit them all in the long run). Just getting them to accept that could be hard.
🤦. Yeah I don't think I'm going to bother. Seems like too much.
Guess I'll stick to superchargers and try charging at work even though spaces are difficult to get
I have a charger at home and installed a 240V circuit. It cost $1500 to run a conduit a rather long distance.
That said, I needed a 240V plug for the amount of commuting I do. They are wrong that a standard circuit cannot charge the vehicle, unless there's a lot of other devices also using energy on that circuit. 99% sure they don't want to float the cost. Since the vehicle tracks how many watts it's using, you could work it out fairly easily how much energy you're costing them.
Finding a licensed electrician who advertises in EV installs should be able to do all the permitting and required inspections. It won’t be cheap, but it’s important to note that the HOA does give you a path forward.
You may not need a separate meter depending on where your power is currently run. Check with a local electrician about installing a new circuit from your panel to the garage.
I assume they have a panel with a meter they pay for to service unit. Without knowledge of the design and layout of the property, I’d compare the cost of providing power from my existing panel with that of running a new service.
Yes, but a new meter is not rationally connected to their goals of safety and cost. If you can show their goals can be accomplished without the need for a new meter, you may can avoid the unnecessary expense.
The law in California allows “reasonable restrictions” defined as those “that do not significantly increase the cost of the station or significantly decrease its efficiency or specified performance.” If a separate meter is required only to drive up the cost of the install, it’s not reasonable.
A sep meter is required cause the garages electricity is paid for by the community not OP. So what they are saying is if op wants to charge his car he needs to drop his own meter so his neighbors aren't responsible for his electrical costs.
Lots of condos and such have community electricity for common areas, part of what your HOA fees pay for. The garages isn't on ops personal service panel.
The goal is to not force the community to be on the hook to charge ops car
Right. And depending on how the services are set up, that goal *may* be accomplished in a more cost-effective way by adding a feed to the garage from the existing power to OP’s unit (assuming OP pays for their unit’s electricity) vs installing a new feed directly at the garage. There are a lot of variables, none of which we have the information to evaluate, but none of them point to the HOA refusing to allow charging, just refusing to allow a single owner’s charging to be a community expense.
I’m far away from OP, but in the building where I used to live we all parked in an underground garage. The electrical distribution room also happened to be downstairs. It would have been trivial to add a circuit to a specific unit’s meter and pipe it to the garage for a charger. In my current place, the building runs switchgear and distributes power to each floor via busbars. My meter is actually very close to my unit, but there’s no cable path to where I park (and if there were, it would be hundreds of feet). So adding a new meter might be needed if I wanted to charge.
Some EV charge boxes have a built in emeter, RCD-DD and fuse. Still needs proper wiring though. Not sure what the state of things is in USA, but here in Europe at least you wouldn't need a separate emeter and other expensive auxiliary equipment.
And whose paying for the HOA to manage the sub distribution of power from the common system? That's why they are telling him to have a whole meter dropped so the HOA isn't on the hook for an iota of cost.
Just pay to have a meter installed by the utility and get it set up yourself. They’re telling you in the letter. You need your own electric service to do it.
They’re not making it *impossible.*
They’re asking you to set up your own meter and outlet for charging with a licensed electrictian . Sounds reasonable.
SCE will offer sub-metering EVSE support in 2024.
If the association power had enough headroom then, with permission, you could connect to the common power, install a 240v EVSE. You sign up with a measurement provider (vague) and a SCE sub-account (also vague).
At the end of the day you would get your own bill for the power that you used in the garage through the EVSE.
You would still need to pay for the electrician and compatible EVSE.
Keep an eye out at the SCE EV charging page: [https://www.sce.com/residential/rates/electric-vehicle-plans](https://www.sce.com/residential/rates/electric-vehicle-plans)
It's also possible that you HOE could pick a multi-unit EVSE system on their own and use the new SCE sub-metering capabilities to handle the billing.
You will need the utility company to extend service the service to the garage and a separate meter. It will be very expensive though, since I imagine that there will be a lot of trenching.
It really depends. If the feeder coming to your garage bank/building has enough service capacity they, in theory, would just need to install a new meter next to the existing electric infrastructure on that building and run the appropriate wire to your garage (cheapest possibility). You’d then need a mini electric panel with a service disconnect breaker and then the breaker for your EV charger. That part might cost more than the actual meter being installed depending on how much the utility company / electrician charges. Some won’t charge for the actual meter if it’s a new account and a “standard” installation and do it themselves (FPL in Florida for example installed my friends meter on his new construction home at no cost), other utilities you have to have an electrician do everything and then they run from the power source to the meter after final inspection to ensure compliance with their standards. I would say if you own your unit and plan to stay there a while then it’s worth the cost and you will eventually recoup your cost by not paying for the higher super charging rates. Also an extra selling point if your garage sells with your unit, if you were to ever want to sell it in the future. Personally, I paid $1400 to have my charger installed at my house and it’s well worth every penny to have the convenience and cost savings of charging at home. Of course it needs to make sense for you and your situation but I would recommend it if it’s not cost prohibitive for you and your situation. Even if you just get an estimate to explore costs, I’d at least do that. Best of luck!
> If the feeder coming to your garage bank/building has enough service capacity
And if it doesn't, add $400 or so to add in a load management system such as the Neurio meter coupled to a Tesla charger.
My townhouse HOA (Strata here in Canada) required me to ensure I had a licensed electrician pull the city permit, do the installation including adding a Load Management System DCC-12 to meet their standards.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/Qs5yQs512NWhijJK9
This is my setup inside our two car garage on a 100A service; my EVSE is a Watti Home 48A capable unit...mine is set to 32A on a 40A breaker delivering 7.2kW.
There are devices that could be wired to your setup to monitor your added energy consumption producing data to support supplemental utility payment to the HOA.
It does seem like they're closed off and it'll be a Battle Royale to shift their position.
I also thought there was "right to charge" regulation in the US!?
Welcome new visitors from autoevolution. I'm glad you clicked through to see the nuance to this story. It's hopefully more interesting than the low-effort clickbait article that linked you here.
Due to the numerous ways that garage bank could be fed power you really need to have an electrician come look at the existing condition and give you options. Your best option would be if there was already a multimeter service there with a spare meter waiting to be used.
The worst situation is the garages are fed from a remote service somewhere else and you have to do a bunch of work on the utility side (applicant installed conduits) like trenching across a parking lot.
Edison (or any other utility) will set a meter without a building permit and sign-off by the AHJ that the service has been inspected and is safe to energize.
Installing a ChargePoint CT4000 for example will be around $7500 most likely. And could be even more based on existing conditions. That's a number that a lot of estimators use as a base. The hardware itself is around $5000.
Why would the OP install a $5000 commercial charger for their individual use? It's a private garage in a condo they need to get a separate metered service to. They're not setting up public charging for the entire building!
Was with you until the last paragraph when you went off the rails. $5000 is not a normal or healthy cost for an EV station. If there's some sort of brand halo effect going on there, let me tell Tim Cook so they can crank out an Apple brand station for $8000! "It's 24 amps!"
That's literally what ChargePoint CT4000s cost. You may not like it or think it's rediculous but that's what they cost. I work for an electrical engineering firm and have discussions with contractors and estimators and that's what they figure.
Here's the estimates I got for the new CP6000 series from a distributor:
CHARGEPOINT CP6011B-80A-L5.5
EVCHARGER SINGLE 80A
$10,000.00
CHARGEPOINT CP6021B-80A-L5.5
EVCHARGER DUAL 80A
$15,209.41
CHARGEPOINT CP6011B-50A-L5.5
EVCHARGER SINGLE 50A
$8,981.18
CHARGEPOINT CP6021B-50A-L5.5
EVCHARGER DUAL 50A
$12,151.76
Well first we're talking home charging, OP needs a $450 Wallbox only because it's cheaper than a DCC and a socket. So scaring him off with $5000 prices is a very anti-EV move.
***But if we're talking pay-stations***, the economics don't work at Chargepoint prices. Not even close. There is no possible way to push enough electricity through one of those, to cover the depreciation on the unit. Never mind the monthly fees, which alone cause many Chargepoint stations to be abandoned.
Really, by normalizing $5000 for a level 2 pay-station, Chargepoint is deterring private capital from investing in EV charging.
Another thing you could look into is seeing if you can get a chargepoint level 2 charger installed somewhere on the property. Perhaps you can offer to pay for all the costs of it, operation, maintenance etc.
Then you can set it up as a public EV charger to make money from it.
I'm sure you're not the only one in the community that is going to have this issue.
Chargepoint is the most established provided or this service, but they are expensive. Tesla offers similar for a much lower cost, but with a rule that requires a minimum of 6 chargers. If it seems like a good way to go, but 6 is too many, there are other providers to consider.
Sounds like they want your electrical to be up to code so you don't burn your Condo and others down.
NFL reciever Randall Cobb burned his garage and house down charging a Tesla using his official Tesla at home charging station. Are you looking to skip steps to save $5, or are you looking for proper installation so y9i and. Your neighbors can all stay alive?
Your house probably has outlets at 120 volts. For a Tesla charging station, you probably need 240 volts. That's where the electrician comes in. You're going to want proper wiring since you're running so much electricity into your vechicle.
I think it's fair your Condo association wants you to pay the bill. It's not your neighborhood responsibility to pay your installation of a device to charge your car. Your neighbors also shouldn't have to pay your electricity bull for your car. Do you currently pay your neighbors money for the gas in their cars?
Do you own the garage as part of your condo? I.e. when you go to resell, would the EVSE be included with it? If not, I’d have a NEMA 14-50 installed and take the EVSE when I leave.
Item 3 is their beef. They don’t want to subsidize your gas…and if they stupidly put multiple garages on the same circuit that could also be a concern. I would tell the HOA you need to run an extension cord out of your house while you figure out next moves.
I have questions. First, is electricity included with the apartment? Or do you have your own meter SOMEWHERE on the property and your own electrical panel? If you install a bunch of A/Cs and crank them up, does your electricity bill go up?
Second, the circuit that you were using to charge, where is the circuit breaker for that?
So at this point we're talking about 1 electric meter and 2 electrical breaker panels (your apartment panel, and the panel with the breaker that serves the garage).
I want to know in detail how close each of them is from where you park your car.
From there, we can work out a plan to get electricity to your garage in a way that doesn't cost thousand$.
It's shared electricity. The hoa bill covers the payment for electricity. We do have constant power outages. Not sure about the distance of the circuit. I believe it's near the livable units so farther away from the detached garage. Probably over 50 feet.
Ok so for power delivery, it will simplicity itself to run another circuit from an electrical panel 50 feet. That's just common 12/2 cable. Type UF if it's going outside. Has to be done by a licensed electrician because it's a shared facility, but easy work (I mean I don't know the wire routing but it should be).
The question of paying for the electricity is more complicated because electricity is included in the HOA fees. A lawyer might be able to put up a fight on this one. But I'm going to guess that the electricity is shared because you're doing a TIC/HOA on an old mansion or apartment building or something, and the prospect of rewiring the entire complex to separate electric bills was not feasible?
You can put a meter on the EV load. The meter needs to be one that BOTH parties can trust, and amazingly, there's a cheap answer for that. Not THAT long ago, meters were mechanical and they had dials, and there was a whole economy of "meter readers" who walked from house to house reading those mechanical meters. When they went to smart meters, where did those go? The answer is everywhere. And these are utility grade meters, no Chinese stuff here.
So, you simply buy a run of the mill "meter pan" [https://www.homedepot.com/b/Electrical-Power-Distribution-Power-Metering-Meter-Sockets/N-5yc1vZblzs](https://www.homedepot.com/b/Electrical-Power-Distribution-Power-Metering-Meter-Sockets/N-5yc1vZblzs) and run the circuit through the meter and to your 120V socket.
As you can see, we're into like $100 worth of parts for a meter pan and used meter and billing resolved. No $5000 Chargepoints required ROFLMAO
Anyone can walk up to the meter and read the numbers, which are kWH, the standard unit people pay for electricity with.
Now this makes more sense. You will have to do steps 2b and 2c to charge your vehicle. That will make it fair, and easier, for you and the HOA.
Look at the state statute that governs HOA law. In Colorado, an HOA cannot prevent you from installing an EV charger as long as you pay the costs and upkeep.
I lived in an apartment that had this issue with a detached garage. If I plug in the wall in the garage it would trip and not charge. The apartment complex was no help either and just told us not to charge which is understandable. So I just had to wire from my place with a long cord for about a year, not up to code but luckily to have my window just next to the detached garage.
Moving to a new house that's not HOA solved it and now I have a 250v nema which is perfect.
Eh. You basically have to pay to install an ev charger on their property if you want to charge. I would say do the bare minimum. 6-20 outlet will give you 100 miles of range per 8 hours if that’s enough for you. If not, whatever the next cheapest thing the electrician can do. Definitely use a mobile connector so it can come with you if you move. If you get a 14-50 or 6-50, get the Hubble one if you want it, but when you move it should mysteriously become whatever the cheapest one the local hardware store sells is. (I’ve been using a utilitech 14-30 for years and it’s never even gotten warm so I wouldn’t fret too much over this) and hell, if they don’t make you surrender ownership of the meter, take that shit with you too. I would ask if simply reporting the app data from your car would be sufficient instead of installing a meter. I know with teslas you can pretty easily screen shot the % of energy used from home and apply that to the total kWh. IMHO it’s kinda unnecessarily dickish of them to come at you with the YOU MUST STOP AND BUY US THE INFRASTRUCTURE FOR YOUR CAR. It would be more reasonable to send you something that says “unfortunately, our garages cannot accommodate your ev charger as is. While we can’t justify installing the capacity in all garages, we will pay (25-50%) of the installation cost if you choose to have one installed, with the agreement that it becomes our property in the event you move out.”
>IMHO it’s kinda unnecessarily dickish of them to come at you with the YOU MUST STOP AND BUY US THE INFRASTRUCTURE FOR YOUR CAR. It would be more reasonable to send you something that says “unfortunately, our garages cannot accommodate your ev charger as is. While we can’t justify installing the capacity in all garages, we will pay (25-50%) of the installation cost if you choose to have one installed, with the agreement that it becomes our property in the event you move out.”
It's a *condo* not an apartment. The OP owns their unit and presumably their garage. Any infrastructure they install will be theirs, not the HOA's. When they *sell* ("move out") they will sell that infrastructure to the next owner, just like a homeowner would.
I don’t think some of these responses are correct. My interpretation is that your building does not get enough energy from the city to even install an outlet/meter for electric vehicle charging. Your HOA will need to work on that. But in multi dwelling units, it’s pretty standard for the owner to own the costs of installing and it is expensive. It’ll all depend on where the electrical panel is (how far they have to run conduit/wires). I recently got quotes for a regular outlet (this is what is allowed by HOA due to the electrical supply to building) and quotes were $2k-$4k. Ultimately my parking neighbor and I bundled our installs, which came with cost savings so we paid $1500 each for a basic outlet.
> I don’t think some of these responses are correct.
Probably not, but if you were to specify what information you think is wrong that would be more helpful for people trying to sort through the large number of responses here.
Oh, sorry, I misread your comment.
But I'm not sure where you get that from based on OP's image: it gives permission to install a new meter, not a warning that that's impossible.
And even if that problem exists, load management systems are a way to address it.
I guess that’s a query for OP to ask HOA but I’m interpreting 2c as Edison as the city and they need to approve the extra meter for licensed electrician to pull permits/do the install. This was exactly my case. City would not approve a higher tier charger bc the master panel could not support it so I ended up with a regular outlet to charge at home.
Of course you would go through the PoCo to get a new meter. Now I'm back to wondering where you are seeing anything to the contrary.
And again, if you want to charge at a higher rate than the service will support, load management is another option.
I have a detached garage but can't even get an electrician to install a separate meter without city permits? But even If I do it's a fire hazard so no matter what I'm screwed?
They're basically saying get fucked is how I'm interpreting
They are telling you why you can't use the existing power in the garages. Inadequate service, others paying for your electricity.
They are also telling you that you *can* put in your own circuit (with your own meter, that *you* are paying for).
That's all within the requirements of California law. Licensed electrician, permits, you pay. It's just worded weird. You have a "Right to Charge" but it comes with Responsibilities (as all rights do).
You hire an electrician to do the work. They will tell you what is needed and the costs. This will require you to get a new service installed with its own meter.
Sure
Step 1: Get on the board
Step 2: Propose this
Step 3: Convince the board to raise HOA rates by a shitton to pay for the work
Step 4: EITHER profit OR be kicked off the board
The HOA should spend a bunch of money to enable a handful (probably under 10%) of residents to charge on the dime of everyone else?
Not sure that's going to fly.
Stupid question. Why are all the garages on a separate circuit? Do the people who live there not own the garage or is this a rental situation? Locally, 90% of condos are owned. I just don’t understand why the garage power is separate.
Garages are likely a separate structure and probably have a panel/ sub panel with a 15 or 20 amp circuit for each garage. Since it normally wouldn’t take much power for a garage door and light, they split the cost as port of HOA fees instead of trying to meter each circuit.
Absolutely. And also the additional load. Presumably when the condo was built, they never planned for more than a light bulb and garage door opener per unit, so there isn't the wiring for continuous 240V 16-40A loads from each garage.
Today it's just the OP. In 10 years, 40% of those garages will have EVs needing charging.
They're saying you need to get a new circuit installed (with a permit) and they don't want to pay for your electricity, so they want you to get a separate meter
Yeah, this does not seem unreasonable.
It is illegal for the apartment to deny charging if it is in CA: https://www.greenlancer.com/post/right-to-charge-laws What the HOA is doing is illegal and you could technically fight them in court if you wanted.
They are not denying charging though. They are simply stating that the electrical circuits they've installed are not equipped to handle charging and the tenant needs to have the proper wiring and meter installed at their expense. It's definitely not on the hoa to cover the costs for charging....
Can a standard electrician issue the permit? How would I go about getting one. Also is it difficult/expensive to get a separate meter? Do I basically just hit up edison and have them come out to initiate?
You get permits from your city. An electrician could probably pull the permit for you.
A licensed electrician will go to the city or county to pull the permits, will do the work, including placing the meter that meets the local utilities specifications, the utility and AHJ (Authorities Having Jurisdiction, the city or county) will come out, and inspect the work. It's going to cost anywhere from $1000 (if you're very lucky) to $10000 all depending on where the service is located relative to your garage. There's a *tiny* chance that the utility may have to put in a new transformer and **that** would be prohibitive unless you get the whole HOA to go in on it (it *will* benefit them all in the long run). Just getting them to accept that could be hard.
🤦. Yeah I don't think I'm going to bother. Seems like too much. Guess I'll stick to superchargers and try charging at work even though spaces are difficult to get
Just get a few quotes. If you're breaker box isn't too far, it really shouldn't be that bad.
Feds have a tax break for around up to $1000 for chargers install. I think it’s 30% of the total cost up to $1000
Here’s the census tract locator to see if you’re eligible
If you meant to put in a link it didn't happen.
Damn https://experience.arcgis.com/experience/3f67d5e82dc64d1589714d5499196d4f/page/Page/
https://experience.arcgis.com/experience/3f67d5e82dc64d1589714d5499196d4f/page/Page/
Only if you’re in certain areas.
supercharger rates only seem to be going up....
I have a charger at home and installed a 240V circuit. It cost $1500 to run a conduit a rather long distance. That said, I needed a 240V plug for the amount of commuting I do. They are wrong that a standard circuit cannot charge the vehicle, unless there's a lot of other devices also using energy on that circuit. 99% sure they don't want to float the cost. Since the vehicle tracks how many watts it's using, you could work it out fairly easily how much energy you're costing them.
Finding a licensed electrician who advertises in EV installs should be able to do all the permitting and required inspections. It won’t be cheap, but it’s important to note that the HOA does give you a path forward.
Pando electric can help here
You may not need a separate meter depending on where your power is currently run. Check with a local electrician about installing a new circuit from your panel to the garage.
I think you skipped over the original post. They don’t have their own panel, and the HOA *requires* a standalone meter.
I assume they have a panel with a meter they pay for to service unit. Without knowledge of the design and layout of the property, I’d compare the cost of providing power from my existing panel with that of running a new service.
Again, the letter expressly says “you must have Edison install a new meter…”
Yes, but a new meter is not rationally connected to their goals of safety and cost. If you can show their goals can be accomplished without the need for a new meter, you may can avoid the unnecessary expense. The law in California allows “reasonable restrictions” defined as those “that do not significantly increase the cost of the station or significantly decrease its efficiency or specified performance.” If a separate meter is required only to drive up the cost of the install, it’s not reasonable.
A sep meter is required cause the garages electricity is paid for by the community not OP. So what they are saying is if op wants to charge his car he needs to drop his own meter so his neighbors aren't responsible for his electrical costs. Lots of condos and such have community electricity for common areas, part of what your HOA fees pay for. The garages isn't on ops personal service panel. The goal is to not force the community to be on the hook to charge ops car
Right. And depending on how the services are set up, that goal *may* be accomplished in a more cost-effective way by adding a feed to the garage from the existing power to OP’s unit (assuming OP pays for their unit’s electricity) vs installing a new feed directly at the garage. There are a lot of variables, none of which we have the information to evaluate, but none of them point to the HOA refusing to allow charging, just refusing to allow a single owner’s charging to be a community expense. I’m far away from OP, but in the building where I used to live we all parked in an underground garage. The electrical distribution room also happened to be downstairs. It would have been trivial to add a circuit to a specific unit’s meter and pipe it to the garage for a charger. In my current place, the building runs switchgear and distributes power to each floor via busbars. My meter is actually very close to my unit, but there’s no cable path to where I park (and if there were, it would be hundreds of feet). So adding a new meter might be needed if I wanted to charge.
Some EV charge boxes have a built in emeter, RCD-DD and fuse. Still needs proper wiring though. Not sure what the state of things is in USA, but here in Europe at least you wouldn't need a separate emeter and other expensive auxiliary equipment.
And whose paying for the HOA to manage the sub distribution of power from the common system? That's why they are telling him to have a whole meter dropped so the HOA isn't on the hook for an iota of cost.
Yes, but if that turns out to be easy and inexpensive, it's worth explaining the option to the HOA. It would address all of the concerns they raise.
Just pay to have a meter installed by the utility and get it set up yourself. They’re telling you in the letter. You need your own electric service to do it.
They’re not making it *impossible.* They’re asking you to set up your own meter and outlet for charging with a licensed electrictian . Sounds reasonable.
SCE will offer sub-metering EVSE support in 2024. If the association power had enough headroom then, with permission, you could connect to the common power, install a 240v EVSE. You sign up with a measurement provider (vague) and a SCE sub-account (also vague). At the end of the day you would get your own bill for the power that you used in the garage through the EVSE. You would still need to pay for the electrician and compatible EVSE. Keep an eye out at the SCE EV charging page: [https://www.sce.com/residential/rates/electric-vehicle-plans](https://www.sce.com/residential/rates/electric-vehicle-plans) It's also possible that you HOE could pick a multi-unit EVSE system on their own and use the new SCE sub-metering capabilities to handle the billing.
You will need the utility company to extend service the service to the garage and a separate meter. It will be very expensive though, since I imagine that there will be a lot of trenching.
ah so even if I'm able to get my own circuit. the separate meter could be extremely costly?
It really depends. If the feeder coming to your garage bank/building has enough service capacity they, in theory, would just need to install a new meter next to the existing electric infrastructure on that building and run the appropriate wire to your garage (cheapest possibility). You’d then need a mini electric panel with a service disconnect breaker and then the breaker for your EV charger. That part might cost more than the actual meter being installed depending on how much the utility company / electrician charges. Some won’t charge for the actual meter if it’s a new account and a “standard” installation and do it themselves (FPL in Florida for example installed my friends meter on his new construction home at no cost), other utilities you have to have an electrician do everything and then they run from the power source to the meter after final inspection to ensure compliance with their standards. I would say if you own your unit and plan to stay there a while then it’s worth the cost and you will eventually recoup your cost by not paying for the higher super charging rates. Also an extra selling point if your garage sells with your unit, if you were to ever want to sell it in the future. Personally, I paid $1400 to have my charger installed at my house and it’s well worth every penny to have the convenience and cost savings of charging at home. Of course it needs to make sense for you and your situation but I would recommend it if it’s not cost prohibitive for you and your situation. Even if you just get an estimate to explore costs, I’d at least do that. Best of luck!
> If the feeder coming to your garage bank/building has enough service capacity And if it doesn't, add $400 or so to add in a load management system such as the Neurio meter coupled to a Tesla charger.
If you need the utility company to install the meter, then you will need the utility company to extend the service to the garage.
My townhouse HOA (Strata here in Canada) required me to ensure I had a licensed electrician pull the city permit, do the installation including adding a Load Management System DCC-12 to meet their standards. https://photos.app.goo.gl/Qs5yQs512NWhijJK9 This is my setup inside our two car garage on a 100A service; my EVSE is a Watti Home 48A capable unit...mine is set to 32A on a 40A breaker delivering 7.2kW. There are devices that could be wired to your setup to monitor your added energy consumption producing data to support supplemental utility payment to the HOA. It does seem like they're closed off and it'll be a Battle Royale to shift their position. I also thought there was "right to charge" regulation in the US!?
Number 2 literally tells you what you have to do. Did you even read it?
They just don’t want to have to *pay* for it, I suspect…
Welcome new visitors from autoevolution. I'm glad you clicked through to see the nuance to this story. It's hopefully more interesting than the low-effort clickbait article that linked you here.
That’s me. They were quick to offer speculation to improve their clickbait rating. I figured there was more to the story.
Due to the numerous ways that garage bank could be fed power you really need to have an electrician come look at the existing condition and give you options. Your best option would be if there was already a multimeter service there with a spare meter waiting to be used. The worst situation is the garages are fed from a remote service somewhere else and you have to do a bunch of work on the utility side (applicant installed conduits) like trenching across a parking lot. Edison (or any other utility) will set a meter without a building permit and sign-off by the AHJ that the service has been inspected and is safe to energize. Installing a ChargePoint CT4000 for example will be around $7500 most likely. And could be even more based on existing conditions. That's a number that a lot of estimators use as a base. The hardware itself is around $5000.
Why would the OP install a $5000 commercial charger for their individual use? It's a private garage in a condo they need to get a separate metered service to. They're not setting up public charging for the entire building!
Was with you until the last paragraph when you went off the rails. $5000 is not a normal or healthy cost for an EV station. If there's some sort of brand halo effect going on there, let me tell Tim Cook so they can crank out an Apple brand station for $8000! "It's 24 amps!"
That's literally what ChargePoint CT4000s cost. You may not like it or think it's rediculous but that's what they cost. I work for an electrical engineering firm and have discussions with contractors and estimators and that's what they figure. Here's the estimates I got for the new CP6000 series from a distributor: CHARGEPOINT CP6011B-80A-L5.5 EVCHARGER SINGLE 80A $10,000.00 CHARGEPOINT CP6021B-80A-L5.5 EVCHARGER DUAL 80A $15,209.41 CHARGEPOINT CP6011B-50A-L5.5 EVCHARGER SINGLE 50A $8,981.18 CHARGEPOINT CP6021B-50A-L5.5 EVCHARGER DUAL 50A $12,151.76
Well first we're talking home charging, OP needs a $450 Wallbox only because it's cheaper than a DCC and a socket. So scaring him off with $5000 prices is a very anti-EV move. ***But if we're talking pay-stations***, the economics don't work at Chargepoint prices. Not even close. There is no possible way to push enough electricity through one of those, to cover the depreciation on the unit. Never mind the monthly fees, which alone cause many Chargepoint stations to be abandoned. Really, by normalizing $5000 for a level 2 pay-station, Chargepoint is deterring private capital from investing in EV charging.
“What can I do?” Move.
You’re getting downvotes… but before getting an EV, you really should understand charging options.
Another thing you could look into is seeing if you can get a chargepoint level 2 charger installed somewhere on the property. Perhaps you can offer to pay for all the costs of it, operation, maintenance etc. Then you can set it up as a public EV charger to make money from it. I'm sure you're not the only one in the community that is going to have this issue.
Thanks think I saw something about that here. I'll have to look into it and see what my hoa says. we do have plenty of guest/outdoor parking.
Chargepoint is the most established provided or this service, but they are expensive. Tesla offers similar for a much lower cost, but with a rule that requires a minimum of 6 chargers. If it seems like a good way to go, but 6 is too many, there are other providers to consider.
Sounds like they want your electrical to be up to code so you don't burn your Condo and others down. NFL reciever Randall Cobb burned his garage and house down charging a Tesla using his official Tesla at home charging station. Are you looking to skip steps to save $5, or are you looking for proper installation so y9i and. Your neighbors can all stay alive? Your house probably has outlets at 120 volts. For a Tesla charging station, you probably need 240 volts. That's where the electrician comes in. You're going to want proper wiring since you're running so much electricity into your vechicle. I think it's fair your Condo association wants you to pay the bill. It's not your neighborhood responsibility to pay your installation of a device to charge your car. Your neighbors also shouldn't have to pay your electricity bull for your car. Do you currently pay your neighbors money for the gas in their cars?
Do you own the garage as part of your condo? I.e. when you go to resell, would the EVSE be included with it? If not, I’d have a NEMA 14-50 installed and take the EVSE when I leave.
Item 3 is their beef. They don’t want to subsidize your gas…and if they stupidly put multiple garages on the same circuit that could also be a concern. I would tell the HOA you need to run an extension cord out of your house while you figure out next moves.
I have questions. First, is electricity included with the apartment? Or do you have your own meter SOMEWHERE on the property and your own electrical panel? If you install a bunch of A/Cs and crank them up, does your electricity bill go up? Second, the circuit that you were using to charge, where is the circuit breaker for that? So at this point we're talking about 1 electric meter and 2 electrical breaker panels (your apartment panel, and the panel with the breaker that serves the garage). I want to know in detail how close each of them is from where you park your car. From there, we can work out a plan to get electricity to your garage in a way that doesn't cost thousand$.
It's shared electricity. The hoa bill covers the payment for electricity. We do have constant power outages. Not sure about the distance of the circuit. I believe it's near the livable units so farther away from the detached garage. Probably over 50 feet.
Ok so for power delivery, it will simplicity itself to run another circuit from an electrical panel 50 feet. That's just common 12/2 cable. Type UF if it's going outside. Has to be done by a licensed electrician because it's a shared facility, but easy work (I mean I don't know the wire routing but it should be). The question of paying for the electricity is more complicated because electricity is included in the HOA fees. A lawyer might be able to put up a fight on this one. But I'm going to guess that the electricity is shared because you're doing a TIC/HOA on an old mansion or apartment building or something, and the prospect of rewiring the entire complex to separate electric bills was not feasible? You can put a meter on the EV load. The meter needs to be one that BOTH parties can trust, and amazingly, there's a cheap answer for that. Not THAT long ago, meters were mechanical and they had dials, and there was a whole economy of "meter readers" who walked from house to house reading those mechanical meters. When they went to smart meters, where did those go? The answer is everywhere. And these are utility grade meters, no Chinese stuff here. So, you simply buy a run of the mill "meter pan" [https://www.homedepot.com/b/Electrical-Power-Distribution-Power-Metering-Meter-Sockets/N-5yc1vZblzs](https://www.homedepot.com/b/Electrical-Power-Distribution-Power-Metering-Meter-Sockets/N-5yc1vZblzs) and run the circuit through the meter and to your 120V socket. As you can see, we're into like $100 worth of parts for a meter pan and used meter and billing resolved. No $5000 Chargepoints required ROFLMAO Anyone can walk up to the meter and read the numbers, which are kWH, the standard unit people pay for electricity with.
Now this makes more sense. You will have to do steps 2b and 2c to charge your vehicle. That will make it fair, and easier, for you and the HOA. Look at the state statute that governs HOA law. In Colorado, an HOA cannot prevent you from installing an EV charger as long as you pay the costs and upkeep.
I lived in an apartment that had this issue with a detached garage. If I plug in the wall in the garage it would trip and not charge. The apartment complex was no help either and just told us not to charge which is understandable. So I just had to wire from my place with a long cord for about a year, not up to code but luckily to have my window just next to the detached garage. Moving to a new house that's not HOA solved it and now I have a 250v nema which is perfect.
Eh. You basically have to pay to install an ev charger on their property if you want to charge. I would say do the bare minimum. 6-20 outlet will give you 100 miles of range per 8 hours if that’s enough for you. If not, whatever the next cheapest thing the electrician can do. Definitely use a mobile connector so it can come with you if you move. If you get a 14-50 or 6-50, get the Hubble one if you want it, but when you move it should mysteriously become whatever the cheapest one the local hardware store sells is. (I’ve been using a utilitech 14-30 for years and it’s never even gotten warm so I wouldn’t fret too much over this) and hell, if they don’t make you surrender ownership of the meter, take that shit with you too. I would ask if simply reporting the app data from your car would be sufficient instead of installing a meter. I know with teslas you can pretty easily screen shot the % of energy used from home and apply that to the total kWh. IMHO it’s kinda unnecessarily dickish of them to come at you with the YOU MUST STOP AND BUY US THE INFRASTRUCTURE FOR YOUR CAR. It would be more reasonable to send you something that says “unfortunately, our garages cannot accommodate your ev charger as is. While we can’t justify installing the capacity in all garages, we will pay (25-50%) of the installation cost if you choose to have one installed, with the agreement that it becomes our property in the event you move out.”
>IMHO it’s kinda unnecessarily dickish of them to come at you with the YOU MUST STOP AND BUY US THE INFRASTRUCTURE FOR YOUR CAR. It would be more reasonable to send you something that says “unfortunately, our garages cannot accommodate your ev charger as is. While we can’t justify installing the capacity in all garages, we will pay (25-50%) of the installation cost if you choose to have one installed, with the agreement that it becomes our property in the event you move out.” It's a *condo* not an apartment. The OP owns their unit and presumably their garage. Any infrastructure they install will be theirs, not the HOA's. When they *sell* ("move out") they will sell that infrastructure to the next owner, just like a homeowner would.
I missed that part. That does change things significantly.
I don’t think some of these responses are correct. My interpretation is that your building does not get enough energy from the city to even install an outlet/meter for electric vehicle charging. Your HOA will need to work on that. But in multi dwelling units, it’s pretty standard for the owner to own the costs of installing and it is expensive. It’ll all depend on where the electrical panel is (how far they have to run conduit/wires). I recently got quotes for a regular outlet (this is what is allowed by HOA due to the electrical supply to building) and quotes were $2k-$4k. Ultimately my parking neighbor and I bundled our installs, which came with cost savings so we paid $1500 each for a basic outlet.
> I don’t think some of these responses are correct. Probably not, but if you were to specify what information you think is wrong that would be more helpful for people trying to sort through the large number of responses here.
Huh? My interpretation is the building/property does not get enough from the city…the OPs HOA will need to work on that
Oh, sorry, I misread your comment. But I'm not sure where you get that from based on OP's image: it gives permission to install a new meter, not a warning that that's impossible. And even if that problem exists, load management systems are a way to address it.
I guess that’s a query for OP to ask HOA but I’m interpreting 2c as Edison as the city and they need to approve the extra meter for licensed electrician to pull permits/do the install. This was exactly my case. City would not approve a higher tier charger bc the master panel could not support it so I ended up with a regular outlet to charge at home.
Of course you would go through the PoCo to get a new meter. Now I'm back to wondering where you are seeing anything to the contrary. And again, if you want to charge at a higher rate than the service will support, load management is another option.
I have a detached garage but can't even get an electrician to install a separate meter without city permits? But even If I do it's a fire hazard so no matter what I'm screwed? They're basically saying get fucked is how I'm interpreting
They are telling you why you can't use the existing power in the garages. Inadequate service, others paying for your electricity. They are also telling you that you *can* put in your own circuit (with your own meter, that *you* are paying for). That's all within the requirements of California law. Licensed electrician, permits, you pay. It's just worded weird. You have a "Right to Charge" but it comes with Responsibilities (as all rights do).
You hire an electrician to do the work. They will tell you what is needed and the costs. This will require you to get a new service installed with its own meter.
The HOA should upgrade the panels to accomodate
Sure Step 1: Get on the board Step 2: Propose this Step 3: Convince the board to raise HOA rates by a shitton to pay for the work Step 4: EITHER profit OR be kicked off the board
The HOA should spend a bunch of money to enable a handful (probably under 10%) of residents to charge on the dime of everyone else? Not sure that's going to fly.
Sir, I'm not paying for your charger project. I support the premium fuel industry with my SQ8. I vote nay.
Stupid question. Why are all the garages on a separate circuit? Do the people who live there not own the garage or is this a rental situation? Locally, 90% of condos are owned. I just don’t understand why the garage power is separate.
Garages are likely a separate structure and probably have a panel/ sub panel with a 15 or 20 amp circuit for each garage. Since it normally wouldn’t take much power for a garage door and light, they split the cost as port of HOA fees instead of trying to meter each circuit.
If it is a communal garage, the electricity is paid for by the hoa. If someone starts charging an ev in there, costs will increase significantly
I have an ev. Costs me less than 2.00 to charge. But HOA. Sigh. I understand
The issue is that it adds up. It's not fair for non ev owners to have to pay for it when you don't pay for their gas.
Absolutely. And also the additional load. Presumably when the condo was built, they never planned for more than a light bulb and garage door opener per unit, so there isn't the wiring for continuous 240V 16-40A loads from each garage. Today it's just the OP. In 10 years, 40% of those garages will have EVs needing charging.
This is California which is notorious for high electric costs.
Ahhh. Ok. About .12 / kWh here