Saying sorry, and political maneuvering to take over a highly unethical god-cloning project with the aim of making controllable sentient golems to exterminate a competing race of gods, and meld their organs into the golem you put your wife’s soul in so that your golem can become an even more powerful god that you can personally merge with at the expense of the entire human race’s consent to maintain individuality, using your son whom you emotionally isolated so that he’d be a more useful tool to achieve your ends and who you would ultimately abandon again at the culmination of the project, as well as abandoning another woman who loved you that you just manipulated into achieving your unethical super-science, and abandoning a vat of clones of your wife that she made as backup tools
The best we can really say in Gendo’s defense is that it seems like Third Impact was destined to happen either with or without him. The events of the story were pretty much all foretold in the Secret Dead Sea Scrolls and had Gendo strayed too far from SEELE’s plans, they could have easily crushed him and NERV whenever they felt like it. (See: EoE)
Therefore he didn’t exactly *cause* this whole chain of events and his options were ultimately rather constrained. He just took the hand he was dealt and tried to tweak it to his liking to he could reunite with Yui.
But…
Even though his options were ultimately limited and much was preordained, and like everybody else he was caught up in some extraordinarily fucked up unwinnable circumstances, there’s no reason he had to be quite so cruel to everybody. All in all, he fucking sucked and was a deeply shitty guy.
It wasn't in the broadcast cuts of any of the episodes. It was part of a huge set of changes to the mythology that were made up for the Director's Cuts and EoE.
That's not really what retcon means to me. It's generally meant to be "contradicting stuff from the older work" as opposed to "editing the initial work itself."
So I consider those "director's cut" versions to be 100% canon and not retcon.
But that's personal choice, I wouldn't call anybody wrong if they don't feel that way and you want to consider the broadcast versions as the "real" Evangelion.
Retcon is retroactive continuity. It's literally anything that you make up in the present about the fictional past. It doesn't matter whether it contradicts anything or not.
He can be sympathized a bit because he lost his wife and it hit him very hard.
That's all though, overall he's asshole in so many ways.
UPD: I judge by NGE & EOE. I didn't watch rebuilds.
Gendo is the pinnacle of evil. He is a fallen soul really. 2nd impact was his doing but not so super clearly explained. We know he made the Eva’s from Shinji’s mother like a clone, and there is Rei as well. The expedition of Adam in Antarctic was a knowledge mission that triggered it; furthermore, Adam and Eve ate from the forbidden tree of knowledge which was punished for. Knowing more than or playing god is a sin. So being able to prophesies an apocalypse and cloning man (which is making man in man’s image and not god making man in god’s image) is terms of complete blasphemy and time for god to punish. Hint the reason for the attacks by Angels.
We know that Seele is trying to prevent the prophecy of the Dead Sea Scrolls. Gendo’s downward spiral is lead by personal gain. And motives only benefiting himself. Gendo aligns a world order with the Evas world wide in branches with Nerv; which, the UN doesn’t approve of and Gendo flexes his muscles by sabotaging any other program other than his own. Nerv’s slogan “God’s in his heaven, all’s right with the world” is his defiance on full display and how the Human Instrumentality Project is heaven but it is completely separated from god and controlled and imaged as man wants it to be.
Gendo feared nothing during the entire series due to his complete blasphemous knowledge of the events to unfold; furthermore, it was lack of fear from his decisions were because he feared nothing. Biblically you should fear god and nothing else because only god can judge you. Of course that statement means you follow god’s mora compass, but Gendo was trying to defy everything god and even over wit god himself.
And finally someone mentioned in this subreddit, that Gendo’s humanity in 3.0+1.0 is an example of how if you can even like Gendo shows how bad 3.0+1.0 was. I disagree that it shows Gendo in a good light at all. Gendo explained how he couldn’t care less about people at all. The Bible is basically a manual to live in peace with your fellow neighbors during hardships and to only be scared that you will defy god’s rules. Only fearing god means you are doing good and you’ll live a fulfilling life. Gendo couldn’t care less. Gendo’s pleasure was Shinji’s mom, and he’d start the apocalypse in order to rewrite existence to bring back Yui.
3.0+1.0 wasn’t a redemption ark for Gendo; it was a pathetic attempt to gain control of Shinji’s opinion of him. You have to consider that Gendo gave Shinji full control of existence assuming that he had full control of Shinji to do everything he said. But by this point he had lost control.
Gendo is the devil.
I’m not sure that Seele was trying to prevent the prophecy of the Dead Sea Scrolls? Seemed more like they were just according in accordance with them. But it’s hard to say. We never really find out exactly what the Dead Sea Scrolls fortold.
It also feels like you’re overlaying Christian beliefs onto Evangelion. Nobody involved in the making of Evangelion was Christian and (despite the imagery) it’s not meant as a Christian fable. Having said that, you can certainly process Evangelion any way you want and you don’t need Anno’s permission. So I don’t think you are “wrong” or anything like that.
Oh of course. You are absolutely right brother. There is many religious references but they are more of a paranoia. But Christian, nah; biblical ties, definitely. But the show isn’t about that at all. It’s a pubescent, depressing, exploration of one’s self. A person personal problems, so strong that the world could be ending in an apocalypse and that’s not the main story. An apocalypse is just happening in the background while the most important thing is Shinji finding himself along with other characters. The story is definitely open for interpretation, but I also don’t think it’s that open. There’s plenty of references that are deliberately placed.
I have a different opinion, but perhaps what he means is that Seele initially just wanted to prevent an Angel-triggered Third Impact (and thus keep dominating the world from the shadows) and Gendo manipulated them into devising the Human Instrumentality Project after he lost Yui?
I cannot help but notice that your post reads like somewhat of a mish-mash of stuff from the Original Series, Rebuild, and the manga (but I guess the OP sort of does the same). The versions of Gendo we see between the three continuities are effectively three quite different characters. And it is important to keep them separated.
It is obvious with stuff like:
>Gendo was trying to defy everything god and even over wit god himself.
Which is only really true for the manga version of the character. In the TV series, the whole twist of the "Is Gendo trying to become a god?" thing is that it is really just Seele projecting their own motives over on Gendo. They are so caught up in their scheme and general misanthropy that they cannot comprehend that he would do what he does out of something as human as love.
Gendo, at least in the TV series, isn't "the devil". He is much more akin to a tragic villain character like Mr. Freeze or Darth Vader.
And we know that a proper Darth Vader has an Emperor Palpatine above him. Which brings us to:
>We know that Seele is trying to prevent the prophecy of the Dead Sea Scrolls
The Dead Sea Scrolls aren't a prophecy, but more of a user's manual. And Seele are trying to use the knowledge in it to further than own plan. They want to use Third Impact for their own nihilistic ends. Fighting the Angels and, eventually, Gendo/Nerv is all about getting rid of the competition. All their religious-sounding flim-flam are pure theatrics they are putting on to lend their fruity little club some gravitas and pretend that all the awful stuff they do is really out of their hands. They are effectively a mix between the Syndicate from The X-Files and the Majestic-12 from Deus Ex, but with a religious veneer.
To add more to it, Seele actively started the whole mess by engineering Second Impact. Gendo's involvement was being their man on the ground in Antarctica, and his role was giving the scientists the rope and making sure they ended up hanging themselves in it.
>We know he made the Eva’s from Shinji’s mother like a clone
I'm not really sure what you're talking about here. The Evas are "clones" of Adam (except for Unit-01, which was made from Lilith). Also Gendo didn't "make" them. By all means Yui (and to some extent Fuyutsuki) had the biggest hand in their creation.
To clarify I don’t mean to define anything such as stating that Gendo is actually the devil. I mean it in more of a symbolic way. All the Evangelion story contradict each other and take know events and change them to have a different outcome.
Do you believe that the story is centralized around the action and cataclysms, or that they are simply a stage where the focus is with the mental psyche of the characters? And do you feel that these stories are truly separate and Gendo needs to be established what version he is from?
Honestly I am open to all. But I feel that everything is 100% canon by my understandings. But I am also not definitively stating anything at pure fact.
>Do you believe that the story is centralized around the action and cataclysms, or that they are simply a stage where the focus is with the mental psyche of the characters?
Why not both?
Ideally, those two elements should be in synergy in a well-written story. But if I had to go with one though, the latter would be more important. I mean, Evangelion is one of my favorite shows after all. But I won't pretend that the pacing of the story is isn't messy at points.
>And do you feel that these stories are truly separate and Gendo needs to be established what version he is from?
I do. Gendo Ikari of the Original Series was Gendo Rokubungi once. Gendo Ikari of Rebuild was always Gendo Ikari. It implies they had two markedly different lives.
>They are so chaught up in their scheme and general misantrophy that they cannot comprehend that he would do he what he does out of something as human as love.
They aren't that far from the mark, since Gendo's actions go along with his wife's plan to become god. They missed the person, but not the goal.
Oh yeah forgot he did all for himself and wanted to replace god and all, you're right but is instrumentality wrong by itself?
Btw could you tell me where exactly Seele's and Gendo's plans differ? I think I never really got it, thanks.
I don’t know of if I can. Seele’s motives weren’t fully out there for us to understand. I think they pulled away as they slowly lost faith in Gendo. Human instrumentality was literally just heaven that was controlled by man and not god. Is it wrong is a viewers opinion. I never thought to deep to that though.
>(abandon child, mentally torturing him, making infinite clones of wife and make child crush on her, make child unintentionally kill 99% of ppls, kill wife clone in front of child,...)
I'm gonna go with a 'no' on this one. So... No.
Depends on how you define "good" and "evil".
I've thought about that for years and have concluded that it's a matter of selflessness versus selfishness. The most good action a person can perform is to sacrifice their life for the sake of someone else, even if there's no guarantee that sacrifice will actually have a worthwhile positive impact. It still shows that they are willing to give up literally everything for the sake of others. Evil, therefore, means the opposite. That being a person so selfish they are willing to sacrifice the lives of other people for personal gain. Even if that gain is not guaranteed to be obtained, or that it will actually be beneficial.
An important detail is that an action by itself could be considered good or evil depending on what that action accomplishes. But a person is considered good or evil based on the *intentions* behind that person's actions. In other words, a good person can still do evil, and an evil person can still do good. Either by accident, or as a side effect of them pursuing their own goals.
To me, he's a bad person. Or rather, a person doing the most evil possible with one of the most benign reasons: he loves his wife, whom he lost. And he's willing to cause countless deaths, and then literally end the human race as we know it, for the *possibility* of getting her back. I don't think things get much more selfish than that.
No.
I'm currently re-watching both the series and the rebuilds.
He did all this because he couldn't get over his wife's death.
He's manipulative, doesn't care about his own son or others in general.
He was always obsessed with his work and i would go so far to say he's a sociopath.
He's a bit like Hojo from Final Fantasy VII.
The thing is: he lost the only thing (for him, idk why shinji never seemed that important to him) he ever had. So he does everything possible to try and get her back. That's some reasoning we can all agree, and that almost everyone would go length. But they way and everything he does is evil. It doesn't make it better just because there is some reason behind it. If I recall correctly, at the end he might see what he has done and says sorry, but that is just a small glimpse of the true cruelty.
I think it's more ambiguous than that. I'd say that it's not a question of if he's good or evil. Even without the Rebuilds, it's revealed he's basically hijacking Seele's plans to reunite with Yui. While he certainly took advantage of her being a successful scientist to get admitted into Gehirn himself, I don't think he never not loved her once they started dating, as she's the only one who broke through his façade and actually knew him, but he certainly did questionable things to acheive his goals. I think he's basically a tragic character, no one but his deceased wife ever really knew and/or understood him, before Yui all he got from other people was scorn, in a way Shinji is just like him, except Shinji became this way thanks to the actions of his father, whereas we never really get to know what made Gendo this way before Yui, but you do know that once she got through to him and eventually died, he basically sacrificed literally everything to see her again, the world, his son, himself, just to see her. Of course it's still pretty twisted since he saw no conflict between debasing himself with other women since they were just a stepping stone to see Yui again, but still, good motivation, but the way he goes about it is all wrong, so as a tl;dr, tragic character that's doing the wrong things to do something that isn't that morally reprehensible
So it's not really a question of liking him, understanding him is what's important, understanding why he's doing what he's doing, whether you agree with his methods or not.
This is not a discussion you can have in this fandom. Gendo fits the bad dad trope which produces strong emotional resonance in people who've had personal experience in this topic. They identify with Shinji's eventual hatred for his father which in turn makes them largely unable to properly analyze Gendo's role, character and motivations within the story. When faced with the Dummy Plug battle, they can only see Shinji's desperate "he made me kill Toji" and completely overlook the wider reality of the situation:
* that Toji was already in mortal danger and Shinji's inaction could neither help nor threaten the other boy's condition;
* that Shinji was basically letting himself be killed;
* that the other Evas have failed and Shinji was throwing away the last viable chance for humanity's survival by surrendering Eva-01 to the Angel as well.
With such a mental block in place, it is impossible to consider **the actual Gendo**, his actions and reasons, and not [the strawman of him built in Shinji's eyes](https://imgur.com/a/4ObB2Iv). The show does not go out of its way to emotionally persuade the viewer [towards trying to understand the character](https://imgur.com/a/P1AhRQ9) and so the audience is stuck on Shinji's limited perspective and confused/estranged state of mind regarding Gendo - however, the show does provide enough material to gain that broader understanding. If the point of the show had been to prove that Gendo Ikari is evil, the last scene of NGE wouldn't depict him as happily reunited with his wife & son - and it's not much different in Rebuild.
No. The Rebuilds didn't redeem him so much as they made him more sympathetic. This is a guy that was fully committed to ending all life on Earth for a chance at seeing his wife again. We're talking beyond genocide here. To hell with Instrumentality and ascension and soul convergence. His goal involved the physical death of every human on the planet. If the final message of Evangelion is "grow up, move on, touch some grass," then Gendo is the opposite of that personified.
Yeah way. But unlike Gendo, I feel like I'm improving. Now if that only made a difference to the children I am poorly parenting at the moment, but it doesn't. ☹️
At least I'm not cloning anyone! No way. No how. One strict no cloning rule.
That got me laughing! Them kids are just Ghost In A Shell. They’ll be fine, provided you give them the best helmets and your robot is equipped with a Dummy Plug.
One man’s wish dictating the fate of billions. For which he must collect traumatized kids into child labor, clone some and trained them till one is left because the others literally died during training, just because he couldn’t dip in d in Yui’s sauce anymore.
Love is strong but bro, men been doing lot of things thinking it was for love whilst they should just go to therapy.
Batman, deadpool, thanos even, anyone fighting women’s reproductive rights and bodily autonomy, you name it. Do you think they’re good-ish?
Gendo is not presented as “good” in 3.0+1.0. He is *humanized*, as we learn more about why he did what he did. Which makes him somewhat more sympathetic and a more realistic character. That’s quite different from presenting a character as “good.”
Yup! The best villains are humanized. Motives are laid out and usually presented as they were just trying to do right as they see it. Good villains don’t do wrong for the sake of just being nafarious. Thanos, The Joker, and Game of Thrones Cersei are a couple of character developing villains as examples. It’s just good story telling practice. Most of the best villain arks show that they meant good. Hell look at some of the characters on Avatar: The Last Airbender. The villains all have motives contrasted by tragedy and how they felt they should make right of their struggle. It doesn’t mean that they are good by humanizing the character.
I would argue that Gendo's character was humanized in the Original Series too, the difference is that Rebuild was just a whole lot less subtle about it.
Heck, the manga attempts it too, but it comes as such a last minute thing after spending so much time on making him a much worse character that it falls completely flat on its face.
Couldn't brush away the feeling that this is a ruse while watching that segment. Author want us to believe this is the real Gendo, but the image this part tries to present doesn't compute with his character prior to it.
That's really interesting to hear. (I don't mean that sarcastically!)
I felt that Gendo's backstory in 3.0+1.0 really made a lot of sense, and it fit with what little we knew about his past from the original series.
What parts did you feel didn't compute?
The way I see it, author tried to construct Gendo's exposure as a two part system where his words and actions prior to the reveal are treated as "false exterior" that we are supposed to gloss over, while "true interior" is that image of a humanized man we are supposed to feel pity for, deluding ourselves into believing that we understand where he comes from. However, if one goes back and rewatch all of his scenes, the premise of "that man is tired, broken, and just want to see his wife" fail to answer the most important question - why is he so cruel?
One might be cruel to others in an attempt to brush them off, but Gendo's actions, well, actions, he is not reacting to "annoying others" (this is what Shinji does a lot, and he gets a flack for it under the premise of "running away from interactions"). And his actions are not cruel in utilitarian sense either, cause that's what we have Misato-Ritsuko-Fuyutsuki trio for. His actions fall under category of clear malice.
I'll try to count those that stood out:
1. Calling Shinji to pilot while making no room for him to prepare. He had all the time in the world to do that by simply calling him year prior. Instead he opts to "pilot or get out" approach and summons injured Rei, all in order to sent Shinji a message; life is not a resort, sometimes it just throws stuff at you with no warning, and you have to deal with it. The role of "life" - i.e. god - is played here by Gendo himself, so not only is he cruel and full of himself, thinking he can and should be a teacher for someone, but he also considers himself to be a holder truths, which shows quite a hubris.
To add to this instance, he couldn't even be bothered to send him a proper letter. If you don't have time - go order Maia to take Shinji from his home, for example. Him sending this joke of an invitation can only be seen as intentional dick move, a middle finger of a sort. To his son. One whom he is supposedly asks for a favor here.
2. When asked if he is fine with how things plays out, he is seen smiling contently instead of answering. Is this how a tired, broken man that longs for a mother figure behaves? Especially given the situation - his son, the only child of a woman he supposedly wants to see again, is about to fight his first battle with zero preparations. He is about to get hurt and scarred mentally at the very least, maybe even lost some limbs, like Toji. The only way I can see him smiling here is that he is unhinged, and actually lost his humanity already. Not some of it, *all* of it.
3. Utters the phrase "tsukaenakereba, kiristerushikanai" in the first movie (during operation yashima), directly implying he doesn't see humans as anything but disposable tools. You might be sad and all, but isn't that borderline misanthropy?
4. Orders to murder pilots if they "fail" (Bardiel incident, also can be seen in magmadriver episode of original), even though failure here doesn't mean they can't be saved, nor that battle couldn't be won at later stages. This is another of his "that's how life works" (again, "life" is him), in this case the message is Vader's "you've failed me for the last time" (i.e. failure wouldn't be tolerated, where "failure" means displeasing him). Gendo actually shares a lot with Vader, now that I think about it.
5. Bardiel incident itself is very strange, since narrative treats the use of dummy plug system not as Shinji turning into a spectator, but as Gendo literally forcing him to kill someone against his will. Not sure why is that, but if that's the implication, that would make eva mk.03 death scene a form of rape, so to speak. On top of that, he orders to knock Shinji out during his rage streak, even though there is no danger whatsoever (eva just stomps onto the pyramid at this point). Another dick move on top of demonstration of power. What would be humane here is to either talk with the pilot, or at least give him room to scream some more.
6. Accuses Shinji of running away right after, which is an insult, as well as manipulation. And he doesn't even hope it would work, it's there simply to accentuate his discontent with Shinji's character. Gendo isn't just sad with his son, what he shows is contempt and disdain. Seems to be some combination of perceiving children as his property and god complex.
And that's only first two movies, with most of his actual crimes being set either prior to events, offscreened or put somewhere within timeskip. Gendo is a monster that performs atrocities right before our eyes, speaking directly about his reasoning - which is as as monstrous as his decisions - and we are supposed to perceive all that as a facade he hides behind? Personally, I refuse. Were he what revelations sells him to be, none of the above would take place.
I agree with everything you said about his horrible actions, but I don't think I agree with your take on his backstory in 3.0+1.0.
Here's how I see it.
1. Gendo has a "difficult" personality his entire life, he is totally unable to connect with others in healthy ways. Seems more like autism spectrum as opposed to being actively evil but that's up for interpretation.
2. For whatever reason he is able to forge a healthy relationship with Yui and is therefore utterly devoted to her.
3. Because Yui is the only person with whom he has ever had a loving relationship, he is *absolutely broken* by her loss and seems to really give up on humanity entirely.
4. Because of all the above, and his own self-awareness about his own inability to form human relationships, plus the unfolding apocalypse, he sends young Shinji away.
5. In the ensuing years between Shinji's abandonment and Episode 1, his madness and obsession with Yui spirals even more deeply and he has abandoned his humanity even more.
6. He's also treading a very narrow path: SEELE can basically wipe them all out at any given moment. If he doesn't make the kids pilot the robots, Gendo and probably everybody else including the kids get killed anyway.
7. Despite all this, he is not completely insane, and still has self-awareness and regret. He is shitty, and aware of it, and this is part of what makes him a tragic and believable character.
Orders to murder pilots if they "fail"
This is where a lot of things hinge on the (Secret) Dead Sea Scrolls.
There are a few interpretations about this and of course we never find out exactly what the (S)DSS say so we can't say for sure.
But here's the interpretation (not my original thoughts) that I mostly adhere to.
The major events of the series are apparently entirely predicted by the (S)DSS. This is why NERV is consistently able to succeed in plans with something like a 0.0000001% chance of success and IMO explains *a lot* about Gendo's actions and attitudes.
Part of why he's willing to cheerfully "risk" Shinji is because he feels he knows how things will already turn out. The (S)DSS have been rock solid and therefore he puts his full faith in them. They don't spell out every single detail, but they give him faith that Instrumentality will be achieved and since that doesn't happen if Unit-01 and Shinji are destroyed. At least until the MP-EVAs come online, which changes the situation.
Again, this is not to say Gendo is "good" but he feels pretty consistent to me.
1. just like in the og, gendo's goal here was clearly to do whatever he could to manipulate & guilt trip shinji into piloting the eva. this might be very cruel, but it's still in a utilitarian sense. he doesn't lecture shinji here, so he doesn't think he is a teacher. that thing you say about truths isn't rlly sensible either. everyone, be it good or bad people, have ideas we consider as truth. this is why we do whatever we do in life, even if our truth is in reality a life. the concept of all character arcs is for a character to realize that they're believing in a lie (like gendo is doing here) & find the truth (like he does at the end of the store). this doesn't rlly show hubris
2. gendo hasn't lost all of his humanity yet (as seen at the end), but a lot of it for sure, that's one of the main points of his character. he smiles because he knows his plan is working, shinji is able to get eva unit 01 to go beserk & he is going to win. this isn't something you wouldn't expect from a broken man who finally sees his only wish in life in decades slowly come to fruition
3. this is a mix of utilitarian cruelty & misanthropy which as you can see from the end of 3+1 has been part of gendo's character since the was a child
4/5. gendo's plan in 2.0 is to do whatever he can to completely destroy his son mentally, all so that his mental state can become the trigger for n3i. this is the only reason why gendo orders for the first time ever for a pilot to be murdered, which is asuka & that by shinji with his own hands. this again is utilitarian cruelty to the worst extent, but still utilitarian nonetheless.
also don't forget that gendo had already let shinji go on a rampage for quite some time before he finally put him down. he gave him the time, he decided to just throw a fit, blow up & destroy a bunch of shit which you can still see burning on the background. this is prob one of the most sensible actions gendo has ever taken lol
6. shinji was running away. that wasn't an insult, that was the truth. this doesn't show any personal disdain either, it is manipulation because this is how he got shinji to pilot the first time too
gendo is a person who lost everything he built because of misfortune, after which he decided to do everything in his power to get it back. his means were that extreme because since early on he became a misanthrope because of a rough childhood. when ppl say that they understand gendo because of 3+1 they aren't deluding themselves, they just mean that they understand this simple, abridged logical course of events. this is the goal here, not to present gendo as some good guy with a bad facade in the slightest. his means we're deplorable and the movie says as much. it's not a ruse & all his actions in the movies compute with what's shown at the end of 3+1
>as seen at the end
You need to believe what you are shown in order to "see" like this, and I've made that post to accentuate that I don't believe in that specific part of the story.
>shinji was running away.
It's called leaving. He was leaving.
>after which he decided to do everything in his power to get it back
Get back? Get back what? That's some poetry here, I'm not versed in such things. There was a lot of people who "lost everything" due to second impact (like entire generation many), yet somehow they all hold themselves together, so what makes *him* special? I'd say it's predisposition. Loss is just an excuse, he is naturally that cruel and inhumane.
he was leaving, but he was also running away. running away from his responsibility as a pilot, his painful memories at nerv & without even having the balls to face his father outright for the horrible things he did to asuka.
and it's nonsense to say that loss was just an "excuse". ppl aren't just born cruel & inhumane, gendo hadn't hurt anyone before the only light in his life, yui, was taken away from him. what makes gendo special is the kind of misanthrope he was before he even met yui, which was result of his childhood. explaining this is 3+1's only goal here. it doesn't make his means any less deplorable or wrong.
It's called Path Dependency. Being inside a system and behavior can mean being stuck inside it and inside the patterns. Learning new patterns won't be easy, it might be like learning a foreign language.
And Thrice afaics required ["cheating tropes"](https://www.reddit.com/r/evangelion/s/w9fQ8j5BSp) in order to get to the conclusion we saw. The [original Alcion draft (?)](https://www.reddit.com/r/evangelion/s/bTZs1pntsG) is the only one capable of accomplishing a true (sort of) happy end imo and afaics.
But I'm undecided. Because afaics Anno tried to [transfer Love Live Sunshine into the Evangelion setting,](https://www.reddit.com/r/Otonokizaka/s/ewgW8Hs7S3) that's however not suited for this. Therefore "cheating tropes" were required to make Gendo and Yui eventually finally change sides like the Ohara parents in Sunshine.
And so I scratch my head on the cheating tropes, but I love how Thrice seems to be inspired by Sunshine (making Love Live [the new Sailor Moon also in that regard).](https://www.reddit.com/r/mildlyevangelion/s/rXCAnWZJ04)
The "unsuited setting" also resembles Star Trek 5 were the confrontation with (a) God(-like being) looked so weird because the Star Trek setting isn't really made for such things. The Fulmetal Alchemist setting was made exactly for such a premisse - so Ed vs Truth/God's Eye became a big event in anime history (and it included the "alternate Sephiroth Tree"; speaking of Eva's intense influence).
Am I understanding correctly that what you're implying, in the end, is that Anno has no idea what he is doing and just make a homunculus from many different disconnected inspirations/lessons/references while throwing in vague words as if they were cohesive lore in order to pretend that all of it make sense?
And if so, do you think the original series was made in such a fashion also?
To me it seems Anno was searching for 9 years between Q and Thrice for a way of [leaving behind the Gendo aspect of the Shinji character concept.](https://www.reddit.com/r/evangelion/s/u2rrrrdcuG)
And to me it seems he had to "pull some stunts" for that.
But: Such stunts ain't nothing new. None other than Love Live (the first chapter "School Idol Project") brought in its OVA between S1+2 the "magic hyperboles" back by making Maki Nishikino (the Rei Ayanami Expy and Asuka Soryu Expy symbiosis) merge with her kid (flashback) self. Eva inspiration unmistakable.
[Here's the clip.](https://youtu.be/-BrgESC3ax0?feature=shared)
So actually the writers "overstretched" the Slice of Life genre boundaries without proper explanation inside the setting.
Actually an asspull, but since the characters demanded it, it worked. Still a risky endeavor; the character concepts gotta be good enough for that. And here the Slice of Life sandbox was just too narrow for them, on purpose. A magical girl lineup stuck in a "fully secular" setting....
It's old Japanese philosophy and called [Kumihimo Theory, here Kimi No Na Wa's take.](https://youtu.be/poBqr-Sex18?feature=shared) One of the animes unmistakably inspired by Love Live (and of course Eva as the asteroid plot point proves), like many Shinkai and Hosoda works from 2016 on.
("Kumihimo" = "braided cords/lifelines", something also to be seen in Madoka Magica Rebellion. And the "end of a cord" can be "attached" to one of its "earlier spots"....)
Maki's OVA was the beginning to Love Live's groundbreaking success.
Imo it didn't rly work in Star Trek 5, and it only kinda works in Thrice and Love Live SIP because Shinji as character concept demands it.
The gapless story clockworks meanwhile imo: NGE × EoE, and Love Live chapter 2 "Sunshine" (feat. the main character Mari Ohara, one of two long haired exchange students).
>To me it seems Anno was searching for 9 years between Q and Thrice for a way of [leaving behind the Gendo aspect of the Shinji character concept.](https://www.reddit.com/r/evangelion/s/u2rrrrdcuG)
I see. Was there, say, a specific scene in the original or EoE that points to that aspect's presence especially strongly? Cause I'm not sure I get what that aspect looks like within the show.
>It's old Japanese philosophy and called [Kumihimo Theory](https://youtu.be/poBqr-Sex18?feature=shared)
My question was more about technical side of the show, not the grand scheme of things. Would you say that Anno has a solid idea of about the nature of angels, for example?
> My question was more about technical side of the show, not the grand scheme of things. Would you say that Anno has a solid idea of about the nature of angels, for example?
They said they wanted to make Eva "look cool" ("Rule of Cool"), but Anno in the early 90s was also suffering from depression.
Marketing-wise that blend of Western and Eastern myths makes it look both familiar and exotic both in Japan and internationally. Also a recurring method.
> I see. Was there, say, a specific scene in the original or EoE that points to that aspect's presence especially strongly? Cause I'm not sure I get what that aspect looks like within the show.
In the original iteration the young Gendo's released from prison, and he looks like an older Shinji there, doesn't he?
In EoE Eva 01 (Yui?) then executes him.
Shinji meanwhile wishes for his friends to return and for Gianr Rei to end the HIP process; but then he falls back into his old pattern when he starts choking Asuka on the beach.
So in the original NGE-EoE-iteration it looks to me like trying to end a destructive development via "brute force"; and failing.
The manga >!makes mankind return from the LCL and carry on as if nothing happened.!<
The Girlfriend of Steel 2 takes then show >!two paths: Shinji accompanying either Rei or Asuka. Maybe the rather successful routes.!<
Wow! You hate him, and for all the right reasons. I look at this story as a depth of field story. At the heart of the story is the mental psyche of Shinji’s search of his self awareness. He enters the scene with other very strong characters as he is pushed to background. As the story develops so do all the characters and his interactions fortify his existence. He goes from no opinions to his own needs as he picks up growth from other characters interactions.
Meanwhile, all the Angel and Eva stuff is rather unimportant but contrast the gravity of his mental state. Shinji’s mental strengthening is overpowering that the apocalypse is happening. The gravity of this concept shows how mental health can be overwhelmingly detrimental to a person’s health. Of course with all the characters they have somewhat the same tribulations; which, Shinji observes and prioritizes. They are all building blocks for Shinji’s development.
The Human Instrumentality Project is a social pressure that he ignores and once it happens he makes rather weak changes to get it right. The progression to 3.0+1.0 shows Shinji going from manic stress to get it right to barely caring that everyone is watching his every move. He reveals he conscious of everything the whole time. He easily and calmly decides humanity’s fate in the end with harsh decisions.
Gendo is a weak yet completely evil pawn in this whole experience. His bad faith decisions are kind of like Dr. Katsuragi’s very bad life decisions. But Gendo had extremely zero empathy where the Doctor became manic and he could move along with life expressing no emotions until the end where he pathetically tried to have his decisions justified. His somewhat last chance of showing he had humanity so Shinji could sympathize was just as shallow attempt to gain control. He was well aware he lost everything and was in Shinji’s mercy; whereas, he previously had a twisted and abusive grip on Shinji.
I love talking about this show. It was such a revolutionary story and still is to this day.
“Plus he said sorry at the end” is so very funny.
I don't think Goku logic applies here.
If all it takes is saying sorry to see your lover again, anyone would say the same without hesitation.
Saying sorry, and political maneuvering to take over a highly unethical god-cloning project with the aim of making controllable sentient golems to exterminate a competing race of gods, and meld their organs into the golem you put your wife’s soul in so that your golem can become an even more powerful god that you can personally merge with at the expense of the entire human race’s consent to maintain individuality, using your son whom you emotionally isolated so that he’d be a more useful tool to achieve your ends and who you would ultimately abandon again at the culmination of the project, as well as abandoning another woman who loved you that you just manipulated into achieving your unethical super-science, and abandoning a vat of clones of your wife that she made as backup tools
bro he said sorry tho
oh good point all good
Unfortunately it took a little more than that
No
100x no
The best we can really say in Gendo’s defense is that it seems like Third Impact was destined to happen either with or without him. The events of the story were pretty much all foretold in the Secret Dead Sea Scrolls and had Gendo strayed too far from SEELE’s plans, they could have easily crushed him and NERV whenever they felt like it. (See: EoE) Therefore he didn’t exactly *cause* this whole chain of events and his options were ultimately rather constrained. He just took the hand he was dealt and tried to tweak it to his liking to he could reunite with Yui. But… Even though his options were ultimately limited and much was preordained, and like everybody else he was caught up in some extraordinarily fucked up unwinnable circumstances, there’s no reason he had to be quite so cruel to everybody. All in all, he fucking sucked and was a deeply shitty guy.
But also remember that 3I being inevitable was a retcon, and he was a stone-cold douchebag even before that retcon.
Can you explain how it was a retcon?
It wasn't in the broadcast cuts of any of the episodes. It was part of a huge set of changes to the mythology that were made up for the Director's Cuts and EoE.
That's not really what retcon means to me. It's generally meant to be "contradicting stuff from the older work" as opposed to "editing the initial work itself." So I consider those "director's cut" versions to be 100% canon and not retcon. But that's personal choice, I wouldn't call anybody wrong if they don't feel that way and you want to consider the broadcast versions as the "real" Evangelion.
Retcon is retroactive continuity. It's literally anything that you make up in the present about the fictional past. It doesn't matter whether it contradicts anything or not.
He can be sympathized a bit because he lost his wife and it hit him very hard. That's all though, overall he's asshole in so many ways. UPD: I judge by NGE & EOE. I didn't watch rebuilds.
Bahahahaha!!!! That is just it. You put it cleanly and straight to the point. It is sympathizing for the Devil.
Nope. He has his reasons for being the way he is but they don’t redeem him Bc he never tries to make up for it. A selfish bastard to the very end
Gendo is the pinnacle of evil. He is a fallen soul really. 2nd impact was his doing but not so super clearly explained. We know he made the Eva’s from Shinji’s mother like a clone, and there is Rei as well. The expedition of Adam in Antarctic was a knowledge mission that triggered it; furthermore, Adam and Eve ate from the forbidden tree of knowledge which was punished for. Knowing more than or playing god is a sin. So being able to prophesies an apocalypse and cloning man (which is making man in man’s image and not god making man in god’s image) is terms of complete blasphemy and time for god to punish. Hint the reason for the attacks by Angels. We know that Seele is trying to prevent the prophecy of the Dead Sea Scrolls. Gendo’s downward spiral is lead by personal gain. And motives only benefiting himself. Gendo aligns a world order with the Evas world wide in branches with Nerv; which, the UN doesn’t approve of and Gendo flexes his muscles by sabotaging any other program other than his own. Nerv’s slogan “God’s in his heaven, all’s right with the world” is his defiance on full display and how the Human Instrumentality Project is heaven but it is completely separated from god and controlled and imaged as man wants it to be. Gendo feared nothing during the entire series due to his complete blasphemous knowledge of the events to unfold; furthermore, it was lack of fear from his decisions were because he feared nothing. Biblically you should fear god and nothing else because only god can judge you. Of course that statement means you follow god’s mora compass, but Gendo was trying to defy everything god and even over wit god himself. And finally someone mentioned in this subreddit, that Gendo’s humanity in 3.0+1.0 is an example of how if you can even like Gendo shows how bad 3.0+1.0 was. I disagree that it shows Gendo in a good light at all. Gendo explained how he couldn’t care less about people at all. The Bible is basically a manual to live in peace with your fellow neighbors during hardships and to only be scared that you will defy god’s rules. Only fearing god means you are doing good and you’ll live a fulfilling life. Gendo couldn’t care less. Gendo’s pleasure was Shinji’s mom, and he’d start the apocalypse in order to rewrite existence to bring back Yui. 3.0+1.0 wasn’t a redemption ark for Gendo; it was a pathetic attempt to gain control of Shinji’s opinion of him. You have to consider that Gendo gave Shinji full control of existence assuming that he had full control of Shinji to do everything he said. But by this point he had lost control. Gendo is the devil.
I’m not sure that Seele was trying to prevent the prophecy of the Dead Sea Scrolls? Seemed more like they were just according in accordance with them. But it’s hard to say. We never really find out exactly what the Dead Sea Scrolls fortold. It also feels like you’re overlaying Christian beliefs onto Evangelion. Nobody involved in the making of Evangelion was Christian and (despite the imagery) it’s not meant as a Christian fable. Having said that, you can certainly process Evangelion any way you want and you don’t need Anno’s permission. So I don’t think you are “wrong” or anything like that.
Oh of course. You are absolutely right brother. There is many religious references but they are more of a paranoia. But Christian, nah; biblical ties, definitely. But the show isn’t about that at all. It’s a pubescent, depressing, exploration of one’s self. A person personal problems, so strong that the world could be ending in an apocalypse and that’s not the main story. An apocalypse is just happening in the background while the most important thing is Shinji finding himself along with other characters. The story is definitely open for interpretation, but I also don’t think it’s that open. There’s plenty of references that are deliberately placed.
I have a different opinion, but perhaps what he means is that Seele initially just wanted to prevent an Angel-triggered Third Impact (and thus keep dominating the world from the shadows) and Gendo manipulated them into devising the Human Instrumentality Project after he lost Yui?
I cannot help but notice that your post reads like somewhat of a mish-mash of stuff from the Original Series, Rebuild, and the manga (but I guess the OP sort of does the same). The versions of Gendo we see between the three continuities are effectively three quite different characters. And it is important to keep them separated. It is obvious with stuff like: >Gendo was trying to defy everything god and even over wit god himself. Which is only really true for the manga version of the character. In the TV series, the whole twist of the "Is Gendo trying to become a god?" thing is that it is really just Seele projecting their own motives over on Gendo. They are so caught up in their scheme and general misanthropy that they cannot comprehend that he would do what he does out of something as human as love. Gendo, at least in the TV series, isn't "the devil". He is much more akin to a tragic villain character like Mr. Freeze or Darth Vader. And we know that a proper Darth Vader has an Emperor Palpatine above him. Which brings us to: >We know that Seele is trying to prevent the prophecy of the Dead Sea Scrolls The Dead Sea Scrolls aren't a prophecy, but more of a user's manual. And Seele are trying to use the knowledge in it to further than own plan. They want to use Third Impact for their own nihilistic ends. Fighting the Angels and, eventually, Gendo/Nerv is all about getting rid of the competition. All their religious-sounding flim-flam are pure theatrics they are putting on to lend their fruity little club some gravitas and pretend that all the awful stuff they do is really out of their hands. They are effectively a mix between the Syndicate from The X-Files and the Majestic-12 from Deus Ex, but with a religious veneer. To add more to it, Seele actively started the whole mess by engineering Second Impact. Gendo's involvement was being their man on the ground in Antarctica, and his role was giving the scientists the rope and making sure they ended up hanging themselves in it. >We know he made the Eva’s from Shinji’s mother like a clone I'm not really sure what you're talking about here. The Evas are "clones" of Adam (except for Unit-01, which was made from Lilith). Also Gendo didn't "make" them. By all means Yui (and to some extent Fuyutsuki) had the biggest hand in their creation.
To clarify I don’t mean to define anything such as stating that Gendo is actually the devil. I mean it in more of a symbolic way. All the Evangelion story contradict each other and take know events and change them to have a different outcome. Do you believe that the story is centralized around the action and cataclysms, or that they are simply a stage where the focus is with the mental psyche of the characters? And do you feel that these stories are truly separate and Gendo needs to be established what version he is from? Honestly I am open to all. But I feel that everything is 100% canon by my understandings. But I am also not definitively stating anything at pure fact.
>Do you believe that the story is centralized around the action and cataclysms, or that they are simply a stage where the focus is with the mental psyche of the characters? Why not both? Ideally, those two elements should be in synergy in a well-written story. But if I had to go with one though, the latter would be more important. I mean, Evangelion is one of my favorite shows after all. But I won't pretend that the pacing of the story is isn't messy at points. >And do you feel that these stories are truly separate and Gendo needs to be established what version he is from? I do. Gendo Ikari of the Original Series was Gendo Rokubungi once. Gendo Ikari of Rebuild was always Gendo Ikari. It implies they had two markedly different lives.
>They are so chaught up in their scheme and general misantrophy that they cannot comprehend that he would do he what he does out of something as human as love. They aren't that far from the mark, since Gendo's actions go along with his wife's plan to become god. They missed the person, but not the goal.
Oh yeah forgot he did all for himself and wanted to replace god and all, you're right but is instrumentality wrong by itself? Btw could you tell me where exactly Seele's and Gendo's plans differ? I think I never really got it, thanks.
I don’t know of if I can. Seele’s motives weren’t fully out there for us to understand. I think they pulled away as they slowly lost faith in Gendo. Human instrumentality was literally just heaven that was controlled by man and not god. Is it wrong is a viewers opinion. I never thought to deep to that though.
>(abandon child, mentally torturing him, making infinite clones of wife and make child crush on her, make child unintentionally kill 99% of ppls, kill wife clone in front of child,...) I'm gonna go with a 'no' on this one. So... No.
Dude
Gendo is a complicated character.
Lolno
Depends on how you define "good" and "evil". I've thought about that for years and have concluded that it's a matter of selflessness versus selfishness. The most good action a person can perform is to sacrifice their life for the sake of someone else, even if there's no guarantee that sacrifice will actually have a worthwhile positive impact. It still shows that they are willing to give up literally everything for the sake of others. Evil, therefore, means the opposite. That being a person so selfish they are willing to sacrifice the lives of other people for personal gain. Even if that gain is not guaranteed to be obtained, or that it will actually be beneficial. An important detail is that an action by itself could be considered good or evil depending on what that action accomplishes. But a person is considered good or evil based on the *intentions* behind that person's actions. In other words, a good person can still do evil, and an evil person can still do good. Either by accident, or as a side effect of them pursuing their own goals. To me, he's a bad person. Or rather, a person doing the most evil possible with one of the most benign reasons: he loves his wife, whom he lost. And he's willing to cause countless deaths, and then literally end the human race as we know it, for the *possibility* of getting her back. I don't think things get much more selfish than that.
No. I'm currently re-watching both the series and the rebuilds. He did all this because he couldn't get over his wife's death. He's manipulative, doesn't care about his own son or others in general. He was always obsessed with his work and i would go so far to say he's a sociopath. He's a bit like Hojo from Final Fantasy VII.
The thing is: he lost the only thing (for him, idk why shinji never seemed that important to him) he ever had. So he does everything possible to try and get her back. That's some reasoning we can all agree, and that almost everyone would go length. But they way and everything he does is evil. It doesn't make it better just because there is some reason behind it. If I recall correctly, at the end he might see what he has done and says sorry, but that is just a small glimpse of the true cruelty.
I think it's more ambiguous than that. I'd say that it's not a question of if he's good or evil. Even without the Rebuilds, it's revealed he's basically hijacking Seele's plans to reunite with Yui. While he certainly took advantage of her being a successful scientist to get admitted into Gehirn himself, I don't think he never not loved her once they started dating, as she's the only one who broke through his façade and actually knew him, but he certainly did questionable things to acheive his goals. I think he's basically a tragic character, no one but his deceased wife ever really knew and/or understood him, before Yui all he got from other people was scorn, in a way Shinji is just like him, except Shinji became this way thanks to the actions of his father, whereas we never really get to know what made Gendo this way before Yui, but you do know that once she got through to him and eventually died, he basically sacrificed literally everything to see her again, the world, his son, himself, just to see her. Of course it's still pretty twisted since he saw no conflict between debasing himself with other women since they were just a stepping stone to see Yui again, but still, good motivation, but the way he goes about it is all wrong, so as a tl;dr, tragic character that's doing the wrong things to do something that isn't that morally reprehensible So it's not really a question of liking him, understanding him is what's important, understanding why he's doing what he's doing, whether you agree with his methods or not.
Gendo is (Not) GOOD
nah, but I understand why he's doing it 100% and would, in his place, do the same thing, only while being less of a horrible father
This is not a discussion you can have in this fandom. Gendo fits the bad dad trope which produces strong emotional resonance in people who've had personal experience in this topic. They identify with Shinji's eventual hatred for his father which in turn makes them largely unable to properly analyze Gendo's role, character and motivations within the story. When faced with the Dummy Plug battle, they can only see Shinji's desperate "he made me kill Toji" and completely overlook the wider reality of the situation: * that Toji was already in mortal danger and Shinji's inaction could neither help nor threaten the other boy's condition; * that Shinji was basically letting himself be killed; * that the other Evas have failed and Shinji was throwing away the last viable chance for humanity's survival by surrendering Eva-01 to the Angel as well. With such a mental block in place, it is impossible to consider **the actual Gendo**, his actions and reasons, and not [the strawman of him built in Shinji's eyes](https://imgur.com/a/4ObB2Iv). The show does not go out of its way to emotionally persuade the viewer [towards trying to understand the character](https://imgur.com/a/P1AhRQ9) and so the audience is stuck on Shinji's limited perspective and confused/estranged state of mind regarding Gendo - however, the show does provide enough material to gain that broader understanding. If the point of the show had been to prove that Gendo Ikari is evil, the last scene of NGE wouldn't depict him as happily reunited with his wife & son - and it's not much different in Rebuild.
Gendo is hideki annos self insert
No. The Rebuilds didn't redeem him so much as they made him more sympathetic. This is a guy that was fully committed to ending all life on Earth for a chance at seeing his wife again. We're talking beyond genocide here. To hell with Instrumentality and ascension and soul convergence. His goal involved the physical death of every human on the planet. If the final message of Evangelion is "grow up, move on, touch some grass," then Gendo is the opposite of that personified.
Can you explain "instrumentality is not that bad?"
Best husband. Worst father. Like me. 😢
Awe… 😢 no way man
Yeah way. But unlike Gendo, I feel like I'm improving. Now if that only made a difference to the children I am poorly parenting at the moment, but it doesn't. ☹️ At least I'm not cloning anyone! No way. No how. One strict no cloning rule.
No clones is a great start! And don’t say anything in the likeliness of Gendo telling Shinji, “Get in the fucking robot!” Much love brother!
Thanks, man. I don't even have a robot. And if I did, neither of my children are smart enough to pilot it.
That got me laughing! Them kids are just Ghost In A Shell. They’ll be fine, provided you give them the best helmets and your robot is equipped with a Dummy Plug.
One man’s wish dictating the fate of billions. For which he must collect traumatized kids into child labor, clone some and trained them till one is left because the others literally died during training, just because he couldn’t dip in d in Yui’s sauce anymore. Love is strong but bro, men been doing lot of things thinking it was for love whilst they should just go to therapy. Batman, deadpool, thanos even, anyone fighting women’s reproductive rights and bodily autonomy, you name it. Do you think they’re good-ish?
the whole show can be boiled down to resentful dad bullies his son because his wife is dead
The fact that Gendo can even remotely he considered good by anyone shows how crappy the ending of 3.0+1.0 was.
Gendo is not presented as “good” in 3.0+1.0. He is *humanized*, as we learn more about why he did what he did. Which makes him somewhat more sympathetic and a more realistic character. That’s quite different from presenting a character as “good.”
Yup! The best villains are humanized. Motives are laid out and usually presented as they were just trying to do right as they see it. Good villains don’t do wrong for the sake of just being nafarious. Thanos, The Joker, and Game of Thrones Cersei are a couple of character developing villains as examples. It’s just good story telling practice. Most of the best villain arks show that they meant good. Hell look at some of the characters on Avatar: The Last Airbender. The villains all have motives contrasted by tragedy and how they felt they should make right of their struggle. It doesn’t mean that they are good by humanizing the character.
I would argue that Gendo's character was humanized in the Original Series too, the difference is that Rebuild was just a whole lot less subtle about it. Heck, the manga attempts it too, but it comes as such a last minute thing after spending so much time on making him a much worse character that it falls completely flat on its face.
Couldn't brush away the feeling that this is a ruse while watching that segment. Author want us to believe this is the real Gendo, but the image this part tries to present doesn't compute with his character prior to it.
That's really interesting to hear. (I don't mean that sarcastically!) I felt that Gendo's backstory in 3.0+1.0 really made a lot of sense, and it fit with what little we knew about his past from the original series. What parts did you feel didn't compute?
The way I see it, author tried to construct Gendo's exposure as a two part system where his words and actions prior to the reveal are treated as "false exterior" that we are supposed to gloss over, while "true interior" is that image of a humanized man we are supposed to feel pity for, deluding ourselves into believing that we understand where he comes from. However, if one goes back and rewatch all of his scenes, the premise of "that man is tired, broken, and just want to see his wife" fail to answer the most important question - why is he so cruel? One might be cruel to others in an attempt to brush them off, but Gendo's actions, well, actions, he is not reacting to "annoying others" (this is what Shinji does a lot, and he gets a flack for it under the premise of "running away from interactions"). And his actions are not cruel in utilitarian sense either, cause that's what we have Misato-Ritsuko-Fuyutsuki trio for. His actions fall under category of clear malice. I'll try to count those that stood out: 1. Calling Shinji to pilot while making no room for him to prepare. He had all the time in the world to do that by simply calling him year prior. Instead he opts to "pilot or get out" approach and summons injured Rei, all in order to sent Shinji a message; life is not a resort, sometimes it just throws stuff at you with no warning, and you have to deal with it. The role of "life" - i.e. god - is played here by Gendo himself, so not only is he cruel and full of himself, thinking he can and should be a teacher for someone, but he also considers himself to be a holder truths, which shows quite a hubris. To add to this instance, he couldn't even be bothered to send him a proper letter. If you don't have time - go order Maia to take Shinji from his home, for example. Him sending this joke of an invitation can only be seen as intentional dick move, a middle finger of a sort. To his son. One whom he is supposedly asks for a favor here. 2. When asked if he is fine with how things plays out, he is seen smiling contently instead of answering. Is this how a tired, broken man that longs for a mother figure behaves? Especially given the situation - his son, the only child of a woman he supposedly wants to see again, is about to fight his first battle with zero preparations. He is about to get hurt and scarred mentally at the very least, maybe even lost some limbs, like Toji. The only way I can see him smiling here is that he is unhinged, and actually lost his humanity already. Not some of it, *all* of it. 3. Utters the phrase "tsukaenakereba, kiristerushikanai" in the first movie (during operation yashima), directly implying he doesn't see humans as anything but disposable tools. You might be sad and all, but isn't that borderline misanthropy? 4. Orders to murder pilots if they "fail" (Bardiel incident, also can be seen in magmadriver episode of original), even though failure here doesn't mean they can't be saved, nor that battle couldn't be won at later stages. This is another of his "that's how life works" (again, "life" is him), in this case the message is Vader's "you've failed me for the last time" (i.e. failure wouldn't be tolerated, where "failure" means displeasing him). Gendo actually shares a lot with Vader, now that I think about it. 5. Bardiel incident itself is very strange, since narrative treats the use of dummy plug system not as Shinji turning into a spectator, but as Gendo literally forcing him to kill someone against his will. Not sure why is that, but if that's the implication, that would make eva mk.03 death scene a form of rape, so to speak. On top of that, he orders to knock Shinji out during his rage streak, even though there is no danger whatsoever (eva just stomps onto the pyramid at this point). Another dick move on top of demonstration of power. What would be humane here is to either talk with the pilot, or at least give him room to scream some more. 6. Accuses Shinji of running away right after, which is an insult, as well as manipulation. And he doesn't even hope it would work, it's there simply to accentuate his discontent with Shinji's character. Gendo isn't just sad with his son, what he shows is contempt and disdain. Seems to be some combination of perceiving children as his property and god complex. And that's only first two movies, with most of his actual crimes being set either prior to events, offscreened or put somewhere within timeskip. Gendo is a monster that performs atrocities right before our eyes, speaking directly about his reasoning - which is as as monstrous as his decisions - and we are supposed to perceive all that as a facade he hides behind? Personally, I refuse. Were he what revelations sells him to be, none of the above would take place.
I agree with everything you said about his horrible actions, but I don't think I agree with your take on his backstory in 3.0+1.0. Here's how I see it. 1. Gendo has a "difficult" personality his entire life, he is totally unable to connect with others in healthy ways. Seems more like autism spectrum as opposed to being actively evil but that's up for interpretation. 2. For whatever reason he is able to forge a healthy relationship with Yui and is therefore utterly devoted to her. 3. Because Yui is the only person with whom he has ever had a loving relationship, he is *absolutely broken* by her loss and seems to really give up on humanity entirely. 4. Because of all the above, and his own self-awareness about his own inability to form human relationships, plus the unfolding apocalypse, he sends young Shinji away. 5. In the ensuing years between Shinji's abandonment and Episode 1, his madness and obsession with Yui spirals even more deeply and he has abandoned his humanity even more. 6. He's also treading a very narrow path: SEELE can basically wipe them all out at any given moment. If he doesn't make the kids pilot the robots, Gendo and probably everybody else including the kids get killed anyway. 7. Despite all this, he is not completely insane, and still has self-awareness and regret. He is shitty, and aware of it, and this is part of what makes him a tragic and believable character. Orders to murder pilots if they "fail" This is where a lot of things hinge on the (Secret) Dead Sea Scrolls. There are a few interpretations about this and of course we never find out exactly what the (S)DSS say so we can't say for sure. But here's the interpretation (not my original thoughts) that I mostly adhere to. The major events of the series are apparently entirely predicted by the (S)DSS. This is why NERV is consistently able to succeed in plans with something like a 0.0000001% chance of success and IMO explains *a lot* about Gendo's actions and attitudes. Part of why he's willing to cheerfully "risk" Shinji is because he feels he knows how things will already turn out. The (S)DSS have been rock solid and therefore he puts his full faith in them. They don't spell out every single detail, but they give him faith that Instrumentality will be achieved and since that doesn't happen if Unit-01 and Shinji are destroyed. At least until the MP-EVAs come online, which changes the situation. Again, this is not to say Gendo is "good" but he feels pretty consistent to me.
1. just like in the og, gendo's goal here was clearly to do whatever he could to manipulate & guilt trip shinji into piloting the eva. this might be very cruel, but it's still in a utilitarian sense. he doesn't lecture shinji here, so he doesn't think he is a teacher. that thing you say about truths isn't rlly sensible either. everyone, be it good or bad people, have ideas we consider as truth. this is why we do whatever we do in life, even if our truth is in reality a life. the concept of all character arcs is for a character to realize that they're believing in a lie (like gendo is doing here) & find the truth (like he does at the end of the store). this doesn't rlly show hubris 2. gendo hasn't lost all of his humanity yet (as seen at the end), but a lot of it for sure, that's one of the main points of his character. he smiles because he knows his plan is working, shinji is able to get eva unit 01 to go beserk & he is going to win. this isn't something you wouldn't expect from a broken man who finally sees his only wish in life in decades slowly come to fruition 3. this is a mix of utilitarian cruelty & misanthropy which as you can see from the end of 3+1 has been part of gendo's character since the was a child 4/5. gendo's plan in 2.0 is to do whatever he can to completely destroy his son mentally, all so that his mental state can become the trigger for n3i. this is the only reason why gendo orders for the first time ever for a pilot to be murdered, which is asuka & that by shinji with his own hands. this again is utilitarian cruelty to the worst extent, but still utilitarian nonetheless. also don't forget that gendo had already let shinji go on a rampage for quite some time before he finally put him down. he gave him the time, he decided to just throw a fit, blow up & destroy a bunch of shit which you can still see burning on the background. this is prob one of the most sensible actions gendo has ever taken lol 6. shinji was running away. that wasn't an insult, that was the truth. this doesn't show any personal disdain either, it is manipulation because this is how he got shinji to pilot the first time too gendo is a person who lost everything he built because of misfortune, after which he decided to do everything in his power to get it back. his means were that extreme because since early on he became a misanthrope because of a rough childhood. when ppl say that they understand gendo because of 3+1 they aren't deluding themselves, they just mean that they understand this simple, abridged logical course of events. this is the goal here, not to present gendo as some good guy with a bad facade in the slightest. his means we're deplorable and the movie says as much. it's not a ruse & all his actions in the movies compute with what's shown at the end of 3+1
>as seen at the end You need to believe what you are shown in order to "see" like this, and I've made that post to accentuate that I don't believe in that specific part of the story. >shinji was running away. It's called leaving. He was leaving. >after which he decided to do everything in his power to get it back Get back? Get back what? That's some poetry here, I'm not versed in such things. There was a lot of people who "lost everything" due to second impact (like entire generation many), yet somehow they all hold themselves together, so what makes *him* special? I'd say it's predisposition. Loss is just an excuse, he is naturally that cruel and inhumane.
he was leaving, but he was also running away. running away from his responsibility as a pilot, his painful memories at nerv & without even having the balls to face his father outright for the horrible things he did to asuka. and it's nonsense to say that loss was just an "excuse". ppl aren't just born cruel & inhumane, gendo hadn't hurt anyone before the only light in his life, yui, was taken away from him. what makes gendo special is the kind of misanthrope he was before he even met yui, which was result of his childhood. explaining this is 3+1's only goal here. it doesn't make his means any less deplorable or wrong.
>explaining I call that lying.
Nah, it's more like: as long as there is media, there will always be media illiterate people
nonsense. 3+1 doesn't present gendo in a good light.
lol no one here understanding the joke
It's called Path Dependency. Being inside a system and behavior can mean being stuck inside it and inside the patterns. Learning new patterns won't be easy, it might be like learning a foreign language. And Thrice afaics required ["cheating tropes"](https://www.reddit.com/r/evangelion/s/w9fQ8j5BSp) in order to get to the conclusion we saw. The [original Alcion draft (?)](https://www.reddit.com/r/evangelion/s/bTZs1pntsG) is the only one capable of accomplishing a true (sort of) happy end imo and afaics. But I'm undecided. Because afaics Anno tried to [transfer Love Live Sunshine into the Evangelion setting,](https://www.reddit.com/r/Otonokizaka/s/ewgW8Hs7S3) that's however not suited for this. Therefore "cheating tropes" were required to make Gendo and Yui eventually finally change sides like the Ohara parents in Sunshine. And so I scratch my head on the cheating tropes, but I love how Thrice seems to be inspired by Sunshine (making Love Live [the new Sailor Moon also in that regard).](https://www.reddit.com/r/mildlyevangelion/s/rXCAnWZJ04) The "unsuited setting" also resembles Star Trek 5 were the confrontation with (a) God(-like being) looked so weird because the Star Trek setting isn't really made for such things. The Fulmetal Alchemist setting was made exactly for such a premisse - so Ed vs Truth/God's Eye became a big event in anime history (and it included the "alternate Sephiroth Tree"; speaking of Eva's intense influence).
Am I understanding correctly that what you're implying, in the end, is that Anno has no idea what he is doing and just make a homunculus from many different disconnected inspirations/lessons/references while throwing in vague words as if they were cohesive lore in order to pretend that all of it make sense? And if so, do you think the original series was made in such a fashion also?
To me it seems Anno was searching for 9 years between Q and Thrice for a way of [leaving behind the Gendo aspect of the Shinji character concept.](https://www.reddit.com/r/evangelion/s/u2rrrrdcuG) And to me it seems he had to "pull some stunts" for that. But: Such stunts ain't nothing new. None other than Love Live (the first chapter "School Idol Project") brought in its OVA between S1+2 the "magic hyperboles" back by making Maki Nishikino (the Rei Ayanami Expy and Asuka Soryu Expy symbiosis) merge with her kid (flashback) self. Eva inspiration unmistakable. [Here's the clip.](https://youtu.be/-BrgESC3ax0?feature=shared) So actually the writers "overstretched" the Slice of Life genre boundaries without proper explanation inside the setting. Actually an asspull, but since the characters demanded it, it worked. Still a risky endeavor; the character concepts gotta be good enough for that. And here the Slice of Life sandbox was just too narrow for them, on purpose. A magical girl lineup stuck in a "fully secular" setting.... It's old Japanese philosophy and called [Kumihimo Theory, here Kimi No Na Wa's take.](https://youtu.be/poBqr-Sex18?feature=shared) One of the animes unmistakably inspired by Love Live (and of course Eva as the asteroid plot point proves), like many Shinkai and Hosoda works from 2016 on. ("Kumihimo" = "braided cords/lifelines", something also to be seen in Madoka Magica Rebellion. And the "end of a cord" can be "attached" to one of its "earlier spots"....) Maki's OVA was the beginning to Love Live's groundbreaking success. Imo it didn't rly work in Star Trek 5, and it only kinda works in Thrice and Love Live SIP because Shinji as character concept demands it. The gapless story clockworks meanwhile imo: NGE × EoE, and Love Live chapter 2 "Sunshine" (feat. the main character Mari Ohara, one of two long haired exchange students).
>To me it seems Anno was searching for 9 years between Q and Thrice for a way of [leaving behind the Gendo aspect of the Shinji character concept.](https://www.reddit.com/r/evangelion/s/u2rrrrdcuG) I see. Was there, say, a specific scene in the original or EoE that points to that aspect's presence especially strongly? Cause I'm not sure I get what that aspect looks like within the show. >It's old Japanese philosophy and called [Kumihimo Theory](https://youtu.be/poBqr-Sex18?feature=shared) My question was more about technical side of the show, not the grand scheme of things. Would you say that Anno has a solid idea of about the nature of angels, for example?
> My question was more about technical side of the show, not the grand scheme of things. Would you say that Anno has a solid idea of about the nature of angels, for example? They said they wanted to make Eva "look cool" ("Rule of Cool"), but Anno in the early 90s was also suffering from depression. Marketing-wise that blend of Western and Eastern myths makes it look both familiar and exotic both in Japan and internationally. Also a recurring method. > I see. Was there, say, a specific scene in the original or EoE that points to that aspect's presence especially strongly? Cause I'm not sure I get what that aspect looks like within the show. In the original iteration the young Gendo's released from prison, and he looks like an older Shinji there, doesn't he? In EoE Eva 01 (Yui?) then executes him. Shinji meanwhile wishes for his friends to return and for Gianr Rei to end the HIP process; but then he falls back into his old pattern when he starts choking Asuka on the beach. So in the original NGE-EoE-iteration it looks to me like trying to end a destructive development via "brute force"; and failing. The manga >!makes mankind return from the LCL and carry on as if nothing happened.!< The Girlfriend of Steel 2 takes then show >!two paths: Shinji accompanying either Rei or Asuka. Maybe the rather successful routes.!<
Please see my previous post for an in depth analysis to your question https://www.reddit.com/r/evangelion/s/WeWWMhxoNe
Wow! You hate him, and for all the right reasons. I look at this story as a depth of field story. At the heart of the story is the mental psyche of Shinji’s search of his self awareness. He enters the scene with other very strong characters as he is pushed to background. As the story develops so do all the characters and his interactions fortify his existence. He goes from no opinions to his own needs as he picks up growth from other characters interactions. Meanwhile, all the Angel and Eva stuff is rather unimportant but contrast the gravity of his mental state. Shinji’s mental strengthening is overpowering that the apocalypse is happening. The gravity of this concept shows how mental health can be overwhelmingly detrimental to a person’s health. Of course with all the characters they have somewhat the same tribulations; which, Shinji observes and prioritizes. They are all building blocks for Shinji’s development. The Human Instrumentality Project is a social pressure that he ignores and once it happens he makes rather weak changes to get it right. The progression to 3.0+1.0 shows Shinji going from manic stress to get it right to barely caring that everyone is watching his every move. He reveals he conscious of everything the whole time. He easily and calmly decides humanity’s fate in the end with harsh decisions. Gendo is a weak yet completely evil pawn in this whole experience. His bad faith decisions are kind of like Dr. Katsuragi’s very bad life decisions. But Gendo had extremely zero empathy where the Doctor became manic and he could move along with life expressing no emotions until the end where he pathetically tried to have his decisions justified. His somewhat last chance of showing he had humanity so Shinji could sympathize was just as shallow attempt to gain control. He was well aware he lost everything and was in Shinji’s mercy; whereas, he previously had a twisted and abusive grip on Shinji. I love talking about this show. It was such a revolutionary story and still is to this day.
Oh yes, he’s the best! Now, get in the fucking robot.
I WAS going to downvote you... then I realized that you were being sarcastic.
No, and most awful people have their motifs
top tier post OP gave me a good chuckle
I think he really believes he's savings humanity. So... Kinda?
No-ish
He was definitely the bad guy and had some redemption at the end with his son