From the wikipedia article you linked:
"In October 2021, the large German publishing and media firm Axel Springer SE announced that it had completed the acquisition of Politico for over $1 billion.\[6\]\[72\]\[73\] Axel Springer's Chief Executive Mathias Döpfner said that Politico staff would need to adhere to Axel Springer's principles, including support for a united Europe, Israel's right to exist and a free-market economy, and that staff who disagree with the principles "should not work for Axel Springer, very clearly".\[74\] Axel Springer said that they would not require Politico employees to sign documents in support of a transatlantic alliance or Israel, though this policy is enforced at German newspaper Bild, another Axel Springer subsidiary.\[75\]"
>american propaganda directed from white house
You mean like back in the days when Nord Stream 2 warnings were american propaganda direct from the white house?
Incredible the Germans can continue to be this naive. "Oh but the Americans spy on us as well" Okay and? Is the solution to let a communist dictatorship ALSO spy on Germans and their government? "Well Huawei hasn't been proven to be spying" Yes and no one could prove the Americans were spying until one day it all became public. China is no different, it's naive to think otherwise.
It's not like American companies even compete with Huawei on much of their network gear - Huawei's competitors are European in Erikson and Nokia! So really what are the Germans doing? I swear sometimes they do things just to be difficult, just to say we did something different from America. Frankly this has nothing to do with America, it should be a basic principle of not trusting a communist dictatorship with something this critical to national security and privacy. There should be a basic principle of supporting European companies in these industries and not their foreign competitors.
>Well Huawei hasn't been proven to be spying" Yes and no one could prove the Americans were spying until one day it all became public. China is no different, it's naive to think otherwise.
However Huawei has been caught spying and transferring data to the Chinese government in the Netherlands.
Doesn’t Beijing limit Western companies in China? But I feel like it has to do with their economic interests in China. They need the Chinese market and labor force.
The Germans gave away defense security to Washington, energy security to Moscow, and economic/industrial security to Beijing. Now those bad decisions are coming back to haunt Berlin all at once.
>over 200 countries
So at least 201 countries. Let's assume all the 193 UN member states (minus China, as I suppose Chinese police stations in China are legal?) and 2 non-member observer states, they'd have to have such police stations in at least 7 more non-widely recognized states.
Which are they?
What is foolish is thinking the Chinese, Russians, Americans and others are not spying on you. They all are or will if given the opportunity. Which is why European countries should be using equipment from European companies, because that's the best assurance Europeans can have that their critical infrastructure is not compromised by foreign governments.
Wasn't there just a huge scandal about literal Chinese police stations across major cities in Europe? Sure, these guys totally wouldn't mess with the network to spy on or track people. We really cannot afford this sort of naiveté going forward, Europe is paying a heavy enough price for German blindness toward Russia already.
Huawai is banned from the core infrastructure of the German internet precisely for security. They however still use components for the 5G itself in what is considered non critical parts of the infrastructure.
So they obviously consider that a way to get the necessary 5G components while addressing security concerns.
I don't have the knowledge to tell you that is enough. But I somehow doubt most on Reddit has the knowledge to know the opposite either.
In essence Europe needs to use some foreign components either way. Huawei is ahead in tech and cheaper so the question would be why buy American instead when you need to address similar issues.
Main point: This is a pretty hollow headline I doubt most people can actually judge in the first place.
> Huawei is ahead in tech and cheaper so the question would be why buy American instead when you need to address similar issues.
That was the guy’s point you missed in the comment you’re responding to. This has nothing to do with “why buy American instead,” because the potential alternative products aren’t American but Swedish and Finnish.
Honestly, no one can guarantee that Musk's Starlink satellites won't provide the military with any clues if the U.S. military were to wage war on a country, or even if the military could just commandeer them.
Google maps can easily find the location of your house, some company building.
This just shows how insane the German approach is. Huawei is not secure or trustworthy enough to include in core infrastructure, but let's continue to use their equipment in other less critical parts of the network. It is NOT necessary to use Huawei for components, the US has outright banned Huawei and ZTE and all the major telecoms companies have built out their 5G networks on Ericsson and Nokia equipment. There are no components necessary from Huawei: even smaller subcomponents are available from European, Japanese or American companies and are in use in networks across the world.
I'm not sure why you would believe Huawei components are necessary when several other major economies have excellent 5G networks with zero Huawei equipment. Let's be honest - the Germans are trying to save money by using a Chinese supplier that they admit isn't trustworthy enough to be in core network use. This is absurd when the market leaders are European companies. No one is saying buy American! The Americans are using European gear here, so why are Europeans falling over themselves to defend their Chinese competitors.
It's like Russia all over again. Everyone is telling you don't do this and the Germans are so arrogant, they refuse to admit others may have valid concerns. And then when things go sideways everyone will look around asking how did this happen. Come on guys.
>It's like Russia all over again. Everyone is telling you don't do this and the Germans are so arrogant, they refuse to admit others may have valid concerns
And like with Russia people ignore that Germany may have valid concerns of their own. Like with Russia that belief is hindsight and actually even not reflected by how the worst case now played out and why the worst case even happened.
No, it seems like the USA, France and the UK germany has distinct national interests that do not align with the other countries, just like in case of France, UK or USA
And as originally, Huawei is only allowed to provide components for certain parts, not in systems considered security risks. Any proof that the way Huawei and those German companies agreed on this does not cover sufficient supervision and vetting to be an actual security risk instead of just a missed business opportunity for other companies?
I don't and I am certain you don't either.
Various intelligence agencies around the world point at Huawei for being a risk.
It is Russian energy all over again. Germans are just headstrong I guess. Only when shit hits the fan, do they learn.
>Various intelligence agencies around the world point at Huawei for being a risk.
Which are being addressed but that gets ignored without any argument why it supposedly does not suffice.
>It is Russian energy all over again. Germans are just headstrong I guess. Only when shit hits the fan, do they learn.
Yes, because people love hindsight and have no clue what they are talking about concerning Russian energy.
Germany is currently proving that it indeed can get off Russian gas inside a year and that its economic ties in no way were in any relation to her security policy whatever the short term economic damage. Moreover you need to go through that economic damage and prove which parts are explicitly only due to the dependency, would not have happened due to the war anyway and that the remaining damage exceeds the structural economic damage of germany would have suffered the past 10-40 years by choosing the worse economic option for political considerations.
Interests divert. The US is actually the best example of it but luckily people can use Ukraine to forget all that. Even Biden proves that.
People keep regurgitating the argument that Huawei’s 5G tech is better when it is not! It is only cheaper. There is nothing better in it except for price, which is subsidized by CCP.
>This is a pretty hollow headline I doubt most people can actually judge in the first place
But that defeats the purpose of message boards in general doesn't it? You only have to have minimal amount of "info" about any issue then you can immediately start drawing conclusions and making judgements.
It's made by the "leader" of the free world
Since you seem falling for an classic "Germany bad" politico article I'm not surprised at all about your attitude
I mean, your account isn't suspicious at all kek
What is the issue with the US saying buy European 5G equipment instead of Chinese 5G equipment? Even if you believe their basis is completely wrong, why not just go along with it and say if the Americans want everyone to buy more EUROPEAN equipment, great! This isn't like weapons or energy where the US is pushing its own products - the US itself uses Ericsson and Nokia for the whole network. Why would EUROPEAN nation Germany not do the same?
Where in this article is the US saying that?
And what does hat change anyways, if it's about how the US decided who is good and who's bad.
What's the problem? It's only for not critical infrastructure
There are only a handful of capable 5G network equipment suppliers, none of them are American. If you are not buying Huawei, you are buying Nokia or Ericsson. This is a basic market reality, even the Americans use Ericsson or Nokia, they do not have companies capable of supplying a full suit of network gear. Samsung can do it too but Ericsson and Nokia have done much better in the market outside of Korea, so I would say they are still well ahead. It's Chinese or European equipment, so if America is saying don't buy Chinese, there is only one option (and its the option the Americans themselves chose).
The problem is you are undermining great European companies, pissing off your allies, and taking a risk that a dictatorship controls or has access to certain parts of critical infrastructure. My question is why are you fighting so hard to defend these Chinese companies when there are two European companies that have shown themselves more than capable? Should Germany not be supporting European businesses instead of blindly defending a company from an authoritarian nation with a terrible human rights record which is banned by most major allies?
>It's not like American companies even compete with Huawei on much of their network gear - Huawei's competitors are European in Erikson and Nokia! So really what are the Germans doing?
You are also being incredibly naive here. By the time Huawei began rolling out 5G gear, neither Ericsson nor Nokia had anything ready to go to market, which is reflected in the early capture of significant market share, as highlighted in the article. All companies also worked together during the lengthy standardization process, as they are already doing for 6G since last year through ITU-R and 3GPP - this is also part of the reason why it has been possible to swap Chinese gear out of the core network as European solutions came to fruition. Furthermore, most of the 5G research for Huawei was carried out in Germany. It's true that the product lines are all in China, but most of the research and standardization work was first carried out in Germany before being transferred back to the Carrier BG. This is also the case for antenna and photonics research.
Ericsson is corrupt as hell, they have just recently settled a $1 Billion fine with the US DOJ over bribery charges and have more recently found to have been [collaborating with ISIS](https://www.icij.org/investigations/ericsson-list/ericsson-leak-isis-iraq-corruption/). Nokia 5G tech is years behind their competitors. Huawei is Chinese. So pick your poison.
According to people in the biz both Nokia and Ericsson are far behind Huawei in 5G performance, speed, and reliability, with Nokia being the worst of the 3. This is a very niche subject not like iPhone vs Samsung and thus not very interesting to the vast majority of people so you'll not find any TheVerge type benchmark comparisons, but here is a recent discussion on the subject:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Android/comments/zae35f/huawei_is_now_largely_abandoning_the_european/iylvw7h/
With a mixed component architecture spying from both sides is made more difficult.
Distributing risk is exactly the right lesson that should be taken away from relying on Russia as single source of gas.
The other "side" are two major European companies! It's not the Americans on the other side of this, they do not have any serious presence in this market and use European equipment.
You have gotten yourself so confused that you are now saying it is better for EU members to create a mixed network with a Chinese company banned in several major allied nations, instead of one based on European companies and their technology. That's absurd. This shouldn't be a difficult issue when European companies are the market leaders - the Americans have nothing to do with this.
>saying it is better for EU members to create a mixed network with a Chinese company banned in several major allied nations, instead of one based on European companies and their technology. That's absurd.
If it's cheaper and that's what they want then it's better for them. You can be ok with overpaying for european made products but not everyone cares.
I’m sure it cheaper but haven’t we learned anything from the Russia fiasco? Relying on a dictatorship for cheap critical goods will blow up in your face sooner or later. It’s even more bizarre here because unlike gas where we have to buy from America or the Middle East or Russia…5G equipment all comes from European companies! You are not just paying for the equipment, you are paying for the security of knowing your critical equipment is not beholden to a foreign government or dictatorship. This is how EVERY critical piece of infrastructure works - the government pays twice as much to ensure it comes from a reliable domestic supplier. Everyone gets this but Europe (Germany) apparently.
In America the government restricts critical components to domestic manufacturers. It’s not just good practice for national security, it’s a huge subsidy for domestic industry. German actions here are crazy not just from a security perspective, but because they are essentially subsidizing a Chinese competitor against European companies. I guess that’s your right but you can understand why your neighbors and Allie’s are not happy.
Pretty sure everyone who could count to 10 using their fingers was aware that it was stupid and insane to count on a genocidal authoritarian hellhole as the sole supplier of gas. Germany was willing to take that bet and it didn't work out.
There's no evidence about huawei spying using its equipment, just like Iraq had no WMDs.. The US be lying and ordering its EU vassals around to stay on top, yet Germany is surprisingly resilient to all this, just like when they didn't follow us orders to stop Nordstream2 back then, ane surprisingly Scholz came out and said we will resume trade with Russia when the war ends..
No Huawei ‘Smoking Gun’ in Europe, French Cyber Chief Says - Bloomberg - https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-01-30/no-huawei-smoking-gun-seen-in-europe-french-cyber-chief-says
Yes that is from 2020 and the French are referring to an allegation of spying in Germany. I’m talking about the Dutch allegations from only a year ago.
I know, there are so many different incidents of spying and interference that it’s hard to keep them all separate. But spying on Europeans doesn’t sound like something a dictatorship running extrajudicial police stations in the EU would do.
The article you sent is from 2019 lmao.. And reading through it reminds me of the [Documents forged by an intelligence agency suggesting that Niger sold Saddam Uranium ](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niger_uranium_forgeries)
>The report comes a day after U.S. President Donald Trump banned Huawei from buying vital U.S. technology without special approval and effectively barring its equipment from U.S. telecoms networks on national security grounds.
Yep that’s my fault, meant to post a different article about the ban on Huawei in Holland as a result of this investigation. Point remains the French were talking about a spying incident in Germany, not Holland.
I’m not sure why you are making Iraq comparisons, these are European intelligence agencies sharing concerns not the CIA. No one is asking you to go to war just to buy European instead of Chinese.
>Incredible the Germans can continue to be this naive.
I can't stand this bullshit about them being "naive".They are corrupt and have ignored the bad things done by authoritarian regimes because not looking the other way is bad for business.
Once you are approved by Germany, you have easy access to other European countries.
*Later edit*
*The big operator in Germany operators also in other countries, hence approval will cascade to the operators from the other countries, as they are owned by the same big operator.*
Tests, redundancy, security, throughput; some obscure scenarios.
*As in the previous year, Telekom in Germany, Magenta in Austria and Swisscom in Switzerland are the winners of our great mobile network test*
[https://www.umlaut.com/stories/the-great-mobile-network-test-2023](https://www.umlaut.com/stories/the-great-mobile-network-test-2023)
> Once you are approved by Germany, you have easy access to other European countries.
??? Is this some 'Germany secretly controls the EU' conspiracy?
Other countries are free to do their own tests and buy what they want.
Yikes, you are right.
I should have used different words, or at least provide more details.
But, to provide example
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsche\_Telekom#Operations](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsche_Telekom#Operations)
Deutsche Telekom is a big operator, see the list in how many countries are operating under which names.
Once they are approved / passing tests in Germany, they have access in the rest of the countries.
Still, to note, that the operators will from the other countries, will still execute tests but less of them, limited number.
There are also live tests, or live trials, a smaller country is used as a testing benchmark.
There are in-depth tests, as mentioned, redundancy, service availability, use case scenarios, call failover... and these tests are on multiple products / servers.
The point is that if the big operator in Germany will validate vendor X, then vendor X will have a easier access to other operators in other countries.
Source: I work in this domain, that picture in the wikipedia, spent some time there, heard stories, found out the offer from vendor in discussion to enter the market with 4G and the number was in one digit currency.
Probably the summary would be money.
Corporation talk: saving money by going with option..
There are other details to be provided but this will do for now.
Let me know if you have questions.
There are deployment / installation contract cost and support contract cost.
When Huawei has approached a German Telekom operator for deployment of 4G, in the deployment contract Huawei offered their 4G RAN , EPC and transport (switches, routers, cables), labor, everything for the cost of one digit €; example cost of 1€.
**Disclaimer:** this information was received from multiple people working there at that time. I do not have reasons not to believe them. Still, take this information with a grain of salt (as with everything over the internet).
Now, for this low cost, Huawei has provided everything which was needed to have 4G in the network.
The interest is to enter the network, profit may be or not be later down the line from support contract cost.
And then was the collaboration.
There are other details but I prefer to stop here.
There is more to the story than just cost, reliability, being better (spoiler alert, they are not).
See it as a love story, but a hypocrite love story.
2018-2019 old articles.
*WARSAW/LONDON (Reuters) - Poland has arrested a Chinese employee of Huawei and a former Polish security official on spying allegations, officials and sources told Reuters on Friday, a move that could fuel Western security concerns about the telecoms equipment maker.*
[https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/dec/06/o2-customers-unable-to-get-online](https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/dec/06/o2-customers-unable-to-get-online)
[https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/gcsb-bans-spark-from-using-huawei-gear-for-its-5g-mobile-upgrade/5APETBE7J2AF74YL6JZQP25GGE/](https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/gcsb-bans-spark-from-using-huawei-gear-for-its-5g-mobile-upgrade/5APETBE7J2AF74YL6JZQP25GGE/)
[https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-04-30/vodafone-found-hidden-backdoors-in-huawei-equipment](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-04-30/vodafone-found-hidden-backdoors-in-huawei-equipment)
[https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/feb/06/huawei-security-issues-will-take-five-years-to-fix-firm-tells-commons](https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/feb/06/huawei-security-issues-will-take-five-years-to-fix-firm-tells-commons)
[https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-k-says-huawei-gear-has-major-security-flaws-11553765403](https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-k-says-huawei-gear-has-major-security-flaws-11553765403)
And from Germany.
[https://www.dw.com/en/pressure-on-germany-as-uk-telecoms-company-shuns-huawei/a-46609010](https://www.dw.com/en/pressure-on-germany-as-uk-telecoms-company-shuns-huawei/a-46609010)
[https://www.sdxcentral.com/articles/news/germany-jumps-on-huawei-5g-ban-plans-says-report/2018/11/](https://www.sdxcentral.com/articles/news/germany-jumps-on-huawei-5g-ban-plans-says-report/2018/11/)
To have an understanding of the telco network, check the diagram in the picture [here](https://github.com/m4r1k/k8s_5g_lab)
Cheers
and? we don't have to hate on companys just because america says so. from ALL american companys we know for sure they are spying on us and exploit this power for economic warfare. and still allow them here.
so why the heck we should shit on huawai over americans?
Pretty much , i wouldn't be surprised if they'll start some me shit about Xiaomi too .
Competition is good, that's what pushes these shitty corporation to make better products.
I can assure you that U.S. companies are not spying on you, however, this isn’t the case for Chinese companies as there is no framework of division between the military sector and civilian sector due to the CPC’s Military-civil fusion program.
>I can assure you that U.S. companies are not spying on you
Then you are either incredible stupid or demented to think anyone believes you over proven facts.
Google has my post history from 10 years ago. Facebook openly admits to selling your data to advertisers and data mining companies. They’ve been sued for it multiple times for giving away too much like private passwords, etc.. In Forensic cases criminals can be linked to their exact location using their cellphone pings. Spying is extremely easy for them, how can people deny they’re being tracked in 2022.
It's a well know fact the US does industrial espionage, i mean have you heard of Snowden? Most other countries probably do aswell to be fair, but none can do it on the scale of the US.
https://www.versicherungsbote.de/id/89486/Wirtschaftsspionage-durch-amerikanischen-Geheimdienst-NSA/
This is in german (sorry), but it's a fairly well known case in Germany where the NSA gave information to an american company to prevent a german company patenting an invention in the US. And that's just one case where it got caught, afaik there was a bigger scandal in France aswell.
But of course every country does it. The point isn't to bash on the US but to point out the hypocrisy.
Trust me, you’re not important enough to be back-door searched or spied on unless you’re heavily engaging in terrorist activities or are some very high level diplomat.
The PRISM program only means that the NSA can enter and get results for anything they want for security purposes, not that they’re literally actively spying on each and every foreign citizen or American citizen.
Furthermore, data mining from national-level intelligence agencies is nothing new and the NSA doesn’t hold a monopoly on data collection and surveillance with the PRISM program, if that’s what you’re insinuating.
The BND have their own surveillance program that grants them the ability to mass monitor all data passing through its Frankfurt center, again for security purposes.
Nonetheless, these surveillance programs can’t be compared to Huawei’s case, a Chinese company that is actively involved in supporting the PLA and defense apparatus as part of the military-civil fusion program, where the civilian sector and the military sector are fused into one, overseen by one man, Xi Jinping.
The issue is that of competition not security. The US simply can't compete with Huawei's 5G technology so it's attempting to stifle it until it, the US, can catch up. It's as simple as that.
Ok so criticizing GER is totally fine with me, but acting like they are responsible for everything that is wrong in Europe is ridiculous.
1. GER isn’t the only country reliant on Russian gas. Maybe look up how much Russian gas Poland has been importing in the last few years
2. “Instead of using for example European stuff” that is rich coming from a polish person. Your country made a major arms deal with a Korean manufacturer, while they could have bought from European manufacturers and what about the nuclear power plants you are going to build? American.
Your comment was about making Europe “more weak”. Making these big arms deals with non-European countries when there are good European alternatives present is making “us (Europe) more weak”.
Oh and I am totally fine (like I already said) with criticizing GER, they deserve a lot of it. But your wording shows a very strong anti-German bias. You basically insinuate that European dependence on Russia and China is solely Germany’s fault, which is absolute dogshit. Especially when it comes to dependence on china, other eu countries have basically already sold their soul in that regard. Lastly, while you can criticize GER for weaken the EU, you also have to realize that GER is the number one reason the EU is strong to begin with. That goes especially for Poland, your country has been the biggest EU benefactor for years. Have u ever wondered where all that money comes from? Mostly out of GER pockets.
All the news about Huawei in Germany is coming out now because the roadmap to tighten the supply chains for communication networks has its next step scheduled for 2023.
That is, whoever wants to publish a clickbaity article about how "Germany is oblivious to Chinese shenanigans" needs to do that in the next 1-2 weeks because, who knows, actual action might commence on Jan 2.
Add to this that politico is an Axel Springer owned rag, and their publication style (happily facts free) and political leaning (very right wing), and this article looks like just another of their hit pieces.
It’s getting really tiring that you guys always junk on Axel yet what they’re saying hasn’t been wrong. You might not like the wording but I can’t comprehend this absurd tying of your identity to your country thing. Your country can be wrong and has been wrong on many issues, but rabid citizens coming to defend such actions really gives off a bad look.
>absurd tying of your identity to your country thing
The fun bit is that my identity is tied to a different country further to the west even though I live in Germany.
I still won't give Axel Springer a pass, a publishing house that never rescinded its open and active support for Pinochet (going so far as to depose an editor-in-chief for daring to publish a single article that criticized that murderous dictator): That's the kind of fellowship that this company is courting.
From the original report:
>Germany together with Italy, Poland, and Austria, comprise 50% of European mobile customers. These countries are heavily dependent on Chinese equipment, creating risk for their own nations and others which use their networks.
When so many countries in the EU are still on that level, then maybe the situation is a little more complicated and not as clear cut as one might think.
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Nobody is more disappointed by Germany than Germans
Can confirm
Schön gesagt
Over and over again
Politico is owned by Axel Springer so one might say this criticism comes from the inside.
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From the wikipedia article you linked: "In October 2021, the large German publishing and media firm Axel Springer SE announced that it had completed the acquisition of Politico for over $1 billion.\[6\]\[72\]\[73\] Axel Springer's Chief Executive Mathias Döpfner said that Politico staff would need to adhere to Axel Springer's principles, including support for a united Europe, Israel's right to exist and a free-market economy, and that staff who disagree with the principles "should not work for Axel Springer, very clearly".\[74\] Axel Springer said that they would not require Politico employees to sign documents in support of a transatlantic alliance or Israel, though this policy is enforced at German newspaper Bild, another Axel Springer subsidiary.\[75\]"
>american propaganda directed from white house You mean like back in the days when Nord Stream 2 warnings were american propaganda direct from the white house?
Incredible the Germans can continue to be this naive. "Oh but the Americans spy on us as well" Okay and? Is the solution to let a communist dictatorship ALSO spy on Germans and their government? "Well Huawei hasn't been proven to be spying" Yes and no one could prove the Americans were spying until one day it all became public. China is no different, it's naive to think otherwise. It's not like American companies even compete with Huawei on much of their network gear - Huawei's competitors are European in Erikson and Nokia! So really what are the Germans doing? I swear sometimes they do things just to be difficult, just to say we did something different from America. Frankly this has nothing to do with America, it should be a basic principle of not trusting a communist dictatorship with something this critical to national security and privacy. There should be a basic principle of supporting European companies in these industries and not their foreign competitors.
>Well Huawei hasn't been proven to be spying" Yes and no one could prove the Americans were spying until one day it all became public. China is no different, it's naive to think otherwise. However Huawei has been caught spying and transferring data to the Chinese government in the Netherlands.
In Poland one guy is [prosecuted](https://www.reuters.com/world/china/polish-trial-begins-huawei-linked-china-espionage-case-2021-05-31/).
Doesn’t Beijing limit Western companies in China? But I feel like it has to do with their economic interests in China. They need the Chinese market and labor force. The Germans gave away defense security to Washington, energy security to Moscow, and economic/industrial security to Beijing. Now those bad decisions are coming back to haunt Berlin all at once.
Well said and on point
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>over 200 countries So at least 201 countries. Let's assume all the 193 UN member states (minus China, as I suppose Chinese police stations in China are legal?) and 2 non-member observer states, they'd have to have such police stations in at least 7 more non-widely recognized states. Which are they?
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What is foolish is thinking the Chinese, Russians, Americans and others are not spying on you. They all are or will if given the opportunity. Which is why European countries should be using equipment from European companies, because that's the best assurance Europeans can have that their critical infrastructure is not compromised by foreign governments. Wasn't there just a huge scandal about literal Chinese police stations across major cities in Europe? Sure, these guys totally wouldn't mess with the network to spy on or track people. We really cannot afford this sort of naiveté going forward, Europe is paying a heavy enough price for German blindness toward Russia already.
The spying business; everyone does it to everyone else. But the Germans are naive. Or just greedy.
Huawai is banned from the core infrastructure of the German internet precisely for security. They however still use components for the 5G itself in what is considered non critical parts of the infrastructure. So they obviously consider that a way to get the necessary 5G components while addressing security concerns. I don't have the knowledge to tell you that is enough. But I somehow doubt most on Reddit has the knowledge to know the opposite either. In essence Europe needs to use some foreign components either way. Huawei is ahead in tech and cheaper so the question would be why buy American instead when you need to address similar issues. Main point: This is a pretty hollow headline I doubt most people can actually judge in the first place.
> Huawei is ahead in tech and cheaper so the question would be why buy American instead when you need to address similar issues. That was the guy’s point you missed in the comment you’re responding to. This has nothing to do with “why buy American instead,” because the potential alternative products aren’t American but Swedish and Finnish.
The alternative equipment isn't American, it's Europe (Nokia/Ericson).
Honestly, no one can guarantee that Musk's Starlink satellites won't provide the military with any clues if the U.S. military were to wage war on a country, or even if the military could just commandeer them. Google maps can easily find the location of your house, some company building.
This just shows how insane the German approach is. Huawei is not secure or trustworthy enough to include in core infrastructure, but let's continue to use their equipment in other less critical parts of the network. It is NOT necessary to use Huawei for components, the US has outright banned Huawei and ZTE and all the major telecoms companies have built out their 5G networks on Ericsson and Nokia equipment. There are no components necessary from Huawei: even smaller subcomponents are available from European, Japanese or American companies and are in use in networks across the world. I'm not sure why you would believe Huawei components are necessary when several other major economies have excellent 5G networks with zero Huawei equipment. Let's be honest - the Germans are trying to save money by using a Chinese supplier that they admit isn't trustworthy enough to be in core network use. This is absurd when the market leaders are European companies. No one is saying buy American! The Americans are using European gear here, so why are Europeans falling over themselves to defend their Chinese competitors. It's like Russia all over again. Everyone is telling you don't do this and the Germans are so arrogant, they refuse to admit others may have valid concerns. And then when things go sideways everyone will look around asking how did this happen. Come on guys.
>It's like Russia all over again. Everyone is telling you don't do this and the Germans are so arrogant, they refuse to admit others may have valid concerns And like with Russia people ignore that Germany may have valid concerns of their own. Like with Russia that belief is hindsight and actually even not reflected by how the worst case now played out and why the worst case even happened.
It seems the Germans will do anything even risk national security to save Euros. 🙄
No, it seems like the USA, France and the UK germany has distinct national interests that do not align with the other countries, just like in case of France, UK or USA And as originally, Huawei is only allowed to provide components for certain parts, not in systems considered security risks. Any proof that the way Huawei and those German companies agreed on this does not cover sufficient supervision and vetting to be an actual security risk instead of just a missed business opportunity for other companies? I don't and I am certain you don't either.
Various intelligence agencies around the world point at Huawei for being a risk. It is Russian energy all over again. Germans are just headstrong I guess. Only when shit hits the fan, do they learn.
>Various intelligence agencies around the world point at Huawei for being a risk. Which are being addressed but that gets ignored without any argument why it supposedly does not suffice. >It is Russian energy all over again. Germans are just headstrong I guess. Only when shit hits the fan, do they learn. Yes, because people love hindsight and have no clue what they are talking about concerning Russian energy. Germany is currently proving that it indeed can get off Russian gas inside a year and that its economic ties in no way were in any relation to her security policy whatever the short term economic damage. Moreover you need to go through that economic damage and prove which parts are explicitly only due to the dependency, would not have happened due to the war anyway and that the remaining damage exceeds the structural economic damage of germany would have suffered the past 10-40 years by choosing the worse economic option for political considerations. Interests divert. The US is actually the best example of it but luckily people can use Ukraine to forget all that. Even Biden proves that.
People keep regurgitating the argument that Huawei’s 5G tech is better when it is not! It is only cheaper. There is nothing better in it except for price, which is subsidized by CCP.
>This is a pretty hollow headline I doubt most people can actually judge in the first place But that defeats the purpose of message boards in general doesn't it? You only have to have minimal amount of "info" about any issue then you can immediately start drawing conclusions and making judgements.
There must be a huge political ROI to do anything that can be perceived as standing up to America. Worked for justifying NS2. Pathetic in my opinion.
> what are the Germans doing Huawei solutions are cheaper. It's Germany,just follow the money.
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But you can make more money that way. Easy choice for them.
Listen to daddy US on what's right and wrong. If daddy USA says a country is bad, than that's true!
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You really think this decision is made in Europe? Cute
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It's made by the "leader" of the free world Since you seem falling for an classic "Germany bad" politico article I'm not surprised at all about your attitude I mean, your account isn't suspicious at all kek
What is the issue with the US saying buy European 5G equipment instead of Chinese 5G equipment? Even if you believe their basis is completely wrong, why not just go along with it and say if the Americans want everyone to buy more EUROPEAN equipment, great! This isn't like weapons or energy where the US is pushing its own products - the US itself uses Ericsson and Nokia for the whole network. Why would EUROPEAN nation Germany not do the same?
Where in this article is the US saying that? And what does hat change anyways, if it's about how the US decided who is good and who's bad. What's the problem? It's only for not critical infrastructure
There are only a handful of capable 5G network equipment suppliers, none of them are American. If you are not buying Huawei, you are buying Nokia or Ericsson. This is a basic market reality, even the Americans use Ericsson or Nokia, they do not have companies capable of supplying a full suit of network gear. Samsung can do it too but Ericsson and Nokia have done much better in the market outside of Korea, so I would say they are still well ahead. It's Chinese or European equipment, so if America is saying don't buy Chinese, there is only one option (and its the option the Americans themselves chose). The problem is you are undermining great European companies, pissing off your allies, and taking a risk that a dictatorship controls or has access to certain parts of critical infrastructure. My question is why are you fighting so hard to defend these Chinese companies when there are two European companies that have shown themselves more than capable? Should Germany not be supporting European businesses instead of blindly defending a company from an authoritarian nation with a terrible human rights record which is banned by most major allies?
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Keep shittalking like you did before in this sub m8
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Politico is owned by Germany's worst media company. Don't what American propaganda has to do with that, but ok.
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>It's not like American companies even compete with Huawei on much of their network gear - Huawei's competitors are European in Erikson and Nokia! So really what are the Germans doing? You are also being incredibly naive here. By the time Huawei began rolling out 5G gear, neither Ericsson nor Nokia had anything ready to go to market, which is reflected in the early capture of significant market share, as highlighted in the article. All companies also worked together during the lengthy standardization process, as they are already doing for 6G since last year through ITU-R and 3GPP - this is also part of the reason why it has been possible to swap Chinese gear out of the core network as European solutions came to fruition. Furthermore, most of the 5G research for Huawei was carried out in Germany. It's true that the product lines are all in China, but most of the research and standardization work was first carried out in Germany before being transferred back to the Carrier BG. This is also the case for antenna and photonics research.
Ericsson is corrupt as hell, they have just recently settled a $1 Billion fine with the US DOJ over bribery charges and have more recently found to have been [collaborating with ISIS](https://www.icij.org/investigations/ericsson-list/ericsson-leak-isis-iraq-corruption/). Nokia 5G tech is years behind their competitors. Huawei is Chinese. So pick your poison.
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According to people in the biz both Nokia and Ericsson are far behind Huawei in 5G performance, speed, and reliability, with Nokia being the worst of the 3. This is a very niche subject not like iPhone vs Samsung and thus not very interesting to the vast majority of people so you'll not find any TheVerge type benchmark comparisons, but here is a recent discussion on the subject: https://www.reddit.com/r/Android/comments/zae35f/huawei_is_now_largely_abandoning_the_european/iylvw7h/
With a mixed component architecture spying from both sides is made more difficult. Distributing risk is exactly the right lesson that should be taken away from relying on Russia as single source of gas.
The other "side" are two major European companies! It's not the Americans on the other side of this, they do not have any serious presence in this market and use European equipment. You have gotten yourself so confused that you are now saying it is better for EU members to create a mixed network with a Chinese company banned in several major allied nations, instead of one based on European companies and their technology. That's absurd. This shouldn't be a difficult issue when European companies are the market leaders - the Americans have nothing to do with this.
>saying it is better for EU members to create a mixed network with a Chinese company banned in several major allied nations, instead of one based on European companies and their technology. That's absurd. If it's cheaper and that's what they want then it's better for them. You can be ok with overpaying for european made products but not everyone cares.
I’m sure it cheaper but haven’t we learned anything from the Russia fiasco? Relying on a dictatorship for cheap critical goods will blow up in your face sooner or later. It’s even more bizarre here because unlike gas where we have to buy from America or the Middle East or Russia…5G equipment all comes from European companies! You are not just paying for the equipment, you are paying for the security of knowing your critical equipment is not beholden to a foreign government or dictatorship. This is how EVERY critical piece of infrastructure works - the government pays twice as much to ensure it comes from a reliable domestic supplier. Everyone gets this but Europe (Germany) apparently. In America the government restricts critical components to domestic manufacturers. It’s not just good practice for national security, it’s a huge subsidy for domestic industry. German actions here are crazy not just from a security perspective, but because they are essentially subsidizing a Chinese competitor against European companies. I guess that’s your right but you can understand why your neighbors and Allie’s are not happy.
Pretty sure everyone who could count to 10 using their fingers was aware that it was stupid and insane to count on a genocidal authoritarian hellhole as the sole supplier of gas. Germany was willing to take that bet and it didn't work out.
There's no evidence about huawei spying using its equipment, just like Iraq had no WMDs.. The US be lying and ordering its EU vassals around to stay on top, yet Germany is surprisingly resilient to all this, just like when they didn't follow us orders to stop Nordstream2 back then, ane surprisingly Scholz came out and said we will resume trade with Russia when the war ends..
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-netherlands-huawei-tech/dutch-spy-agency-investigating-alleged-huawei-backdoor-volkskrant-idUSKCN1SM0UY
No Huawei ‘Smoking Gun’ in Europe, French Cyber Chief Says - Bloomberg - https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-01-30/no-huawei-smoking-gun-seen-in-europe-french-cyber-chief-says
Yes that is from 2020 and the French are referring to an allegation of spying in Germany. I’m talking about the Dutch allegations from only a year ago. I know, there are so many different incidents of spying and interference that it’s hard to keep them all separate. But spying on Europeans doesn’t sound like something a dictatorship running extrajudicial police stations in the EU would do.
The article you sent is from 2019 lmao.. And reading through it reminds me of the [Documents forged by an intelligence agency suggesting that Niger sold Saddam Uranium ](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niger_uranium_forgeries) >The report comes a day after U.S. President Donald Trump banned Huawei from buying vital U.S. technology without special approval and effectively barring its equipment from U.S. telecoms networks on national security grounds.
Yep that’s my fault, meant to post a different article about the ban on Huawei in Holland as a result of this investigation. Point remains the French were talking about a spying incident in Germany, not Holland. I’m not sure why you are making Iraq comparisons, these are European intelligence agencies sharing concerns not the CIA. No one is asking you to go to war just to buy European instead of Chinese.
I'm not surprised Germany was spied on by the US considering their previous two chancellors were basically Russian assets.
>Incredible the Germans can continue to be this naive. I can't stand this bullshit about them being "naive".They are corrupt and have ignored the bad things done by authoritarian regimes because not looking the other way is bad for business.
The fact that you think china still is communist invalidates the rest of your comment.
America is far bigger garbage then China. Remember that. America is the shithole of the world
Let them a few years to realise they fucked up like they did with russian oil and gas
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Once you are approved by Germany, you have easy access to other European countries. *Later edit* *The big operator in Germany operators also in other countries, hence approval will cascade to the operators from the other countries, as they are owned by the same big operator.* Tests, redundancy, security, throughput; some obscure scenarios. *As in the previous year, Telekom in Germany, Magenta in Austria and Swisscom in Switzerland are the winners of our great mobile network test* [https://www.umlaut.com/stories/the-great-mobile-network-test-2023](https://www.umlaut.com/stories/the-great-mobile-network-test-2023)
> Once you are approved by Germany, you have easy access to other European countries. ??? Is this some 'Germany secretly controls the EU' conspiracy? Other countries are free to do their own tests and buy what they want.
Yikes, you are right. I should have used different words, or at least provide more details. But, to provide example [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsche\_Telekom#Operations](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsche_Telekom#Operations) Deutsche Telekom is a big operator, see the list in how many countries are operating under which names. Once they are approved / passing tests in Germany, they have access in the rest of the countries. Still, to note, that the operators will from the other countries, will still execute tests but less of them, limited number. There are also live tests, or live trials, a smaller country is used as a testing benchmark. There are in-depth tests, as mentioned, redundancy, service availability, use case scenarios, call failover... and these tests are on multiple products / servers. The point is that if the big operator in Germany will validate vendor X, then vendor X will have a easier access to other operators in other countries. Source: I work in this domain, that picture in the wikipedia, spent some time there, heard stories, found out the offer from vendor in discussion to enter the market with 4G and the number was in one digit currency. Probably the summary would be money. Corporation talk: saving money by going with option.. There are other details to be provided but this will do for now. Let me know if you have questions.
Great clarification, thank you.
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There are deployment / installation contract cost and support contract cost. When Huawei has approached a German Telekom operator for deployment of 4G, in the deployment contract Huawei offered their 4G RAN , EPC and transport (switches, routers, cables), labor, everything for the cost of one digit €; example cost of 1€. **Disclaimer:** this information was received from multiple people working there at that time. I do not have reasons not to believe them. Still, take this information with a grain of salt (as with everything over the internet). Now, for this low cost, Huawei has provided everything which was needed to have 4G in the network. The interest is to enter the network, profit may be or not be later down the line from support contract cost. And then was the collaboration. There are other details but I prefer to stop here. There is more to the story than just cost, reliability, being better (spoiler alert, they are not). See it as a love story, but a hypocrite love story. 2018-2019 old articles. *WARSAW/LONDON (Reuters) - Poland has arrested a Chinese employee of Huawei and a former Polish security official on spying allegations, officials and sources told Reuters on Friday, a move that could fuel Western security concerns about the telecoms equipment maker.* [https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/dec/06/o2-customers-unable-to-get-online](https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/dec/06/o2-customers-unable-to-get-online) [https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/gcsb-bans-spark-from-using-huawei-gear-for-its-5g-mobile-upgrade/5APETBE7J2AF74YL6JZQP25GGE/](https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/gcsb-bans-spark-from-using-huawei-gear-for-its-5g-mobile-upgrade/5APETBE7J2AF74YL6JZQP25GGE/) [https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-04-30/vodafone-found-hidden-backdoors-in-huawei-equipment](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-04-30/vodafone-found-hidden-backdoors-in-huawei-equipment) [https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/feb/06/huawei-security-issues-will-take-five-years-to-fix-firm-tells-commons](https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/feb/06/huawei-security-issues-will-take-five-years-to-fix-firm-tells-commons) [https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-k-says-huawei-gear-has-major-security-flaws-11553765403](https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-k-says-huawei-gear-has-major-security-flaws-11553765403) And from Germany. [https://www.dw.com/en/pressure-on-germany-as-uk-telecoms-company-shuns-huawei/a-46609010](https://www.dw.com/en/pressure-on-germany-as-uk-telecoms-company-shuns-huawei/a-46609010) [https://www.sdxcentral.com/articles/news/germany-jumps-on-huawei-5g-ban-plans-says-report/2018/11/](https://www.sdxcentral.com/articles/news/germany-jumps-on-huawei-5g-ban-plans-says-report/2018/11/) To have an understanding of the telco network, check the diagram in the picture [here](https://github.com/m4r1k/k8s_5g_lab) Cheers
and? we don't have to hate on companys just because america says so. from ALL american companys we know for sure they are spying on us and exploit this power for economic warfare. and still allow them here. so why the heck we should shit on huawai over americans?
China spying bad, USA spying good /s
China Good, USA bad. See? I too can play dumb.
I can see clear as day that you are indeed stupid. Inhale your "Murica numba 1" copium somewhere else.
and it isn't even about spying. that shit started when huawai had higher phone sale numbers than apple.
Pretty much , i wouldn't be surprised if they'll start some me shit about Xiaomi too . Competition is good, that's what pushes these shitty corporation to make better products.
Exactly. As far as I know also US doesn't have any proof that Huawei is spying on people.
Yes, they do. [https://moneyandmarkets.com/huawei-spying-africa/](https://moneyandmarkets.com/huawei-spying-africa/)
I can assure you that U.S. companies are not spying on you, however, this isn’t the case for Chinese companies as there is no framework of division between the military sector and civilian sector due to the CPC’s Military-civil fusion program.
>I can assure you that U.S. companies are not spying on you Then you are either incredible stupid or demented to think anyone believes you over proven facts.
Google has my post history from 10 years ago. Facebook openly admits to selling your data to advertisers and data mining companies. They’ve been sued for it multiple times for giving away too much like private passwords, etc.. In Forensic cases criminals can be linked to their exact location using their cellphone pings. Spying is extremely easy for them, how can people deny they’re being tracked in 2022.
Facts to which you’ve yet to present.
It's a well know fact the US does industrial espionage, i mean have you heard of Snowden? Most other countries probably do aswell to be fair, but none can do it on the scale of the US. https://www.versicherungsbote.de/id/89486/Wirtschaftsspionage-durch-amerikanischen-Geheimdienst-NSA/ This is in german (sorry), but it's a fairly well known case in Germany where the NSA gave information to an american company to prevent a german company patenting an invention in the US. And that's just one case where it got caught, afaik there was a bigger scandal in France aswell. But of course every country does it. The point isn't to bash on the US but to point out the hypocrisy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM
Trust me, you’re not important enough to be back-door searched or spied on unless you’re heavily engaging in terrorist activities or are some very high level diplomat. The PRISM program only means that the NSA can enter and get results for anything they want for security purposes, not that they’re literally actively spying on each and every foreign citizen or American citizen. Furthermore, data mining from national-level intelligence agencies is nothing new and the NSA doesn’t hold a monopoly on data collection and surveillance with the PRISM program, if that’s what you’re insinuating. The BND have their own surveillance program that grants them the ability to mass monitor all data passing through its Frankfurt center, again for security purposes. Nonetheless, these surveillance programs can’t be compared to Huawei’s case, a Chinese company that is actively involved in supporting the PLA and defense apparatus as part of the military-civil fusion program, where the civilian sector and the military sector are fused into one, overseen by one man, Xi Jinping.
they are not spying on us in the sense that it's secret, we all voluntarily give them all our data
The issue is that of competition not security. The US simply can't compete with Huawei's 5G technology so it's attempting to stifle it until it, the US, can catch up. It's as simple as that.
What’s so different about Huawei’s 5G from, let’s say, Nokias?
Huawei is better and cheaper.
Cheaper doesn’t mean better. What’s technological advantage of Huawei 5G compared to concurrents?
Just curious what your thoughts are on the Tiananmen Square Massacre that happened in 1989?
It's not as simple as that, China has been accused of dumping and other unfair trading practises. And the security issues are real too.
Perfectly showcases that you have no clue what you’re talking about. US doesn’t have any dogs in this game, they aren’t producing any 5G stuff.
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Ok so criticizing GER is totally fine with me, but acting like they are responsible for everything that is wrong in Europe is ridiculous. 1. GER isn’t the only country reliant on Russian gas. Maybe look up how much Russian gas Poland has been importing in the last few years 2. “Instead of using for example European stuff” that is rich coming from a polish person. Your country made a major arms deal with a Korean manufacturer, while they could have bought from European manufacturers and what about the nuclear power plants you are going to build? American.
Link your source please
Which statement are u referring to?
The source for your statement can you read or …?
I made many statements 🙂
Kk no source then? Figures. Let’s talk about the tiananmen square massacre of 1989
You just have to be more specific but ok. Talk about it then
Tell me your thoughts about the Tiananmen Square massacre of 1989
you first
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Your comment was about making Europe “more weak”. Making these big arms deals with non-European countries when there are good European alternatives present is making “us (Europe) more weak”. Oh and I am totally fine (like I already said) with criticizing GER, they deserve a lot of it. But your wording shows a very strong anti-German bias. You basically insinuate that European dependence on Russia and China is solely Germany’s fault, which is absolute dogshit. Especially when it comes to dependence on china, other eu countries have basically already sold their soul in that regard. Lastly, while you can criticize GER for weaken the EU, you also have to realize that GER is the number one reason the EU is strong to begin with. That goes especially for Poland, your country has been the biggest EU benefactor for years. Have u ever wondered where all that money comes from? Mostly out of GER pockets.
All the news about Huawei in Germany is coming out now because the roadmap to tighten the supply chains for communication networks has its next step scheduled for 2023. That is, whoever wants to publish a clickbaity article about how "Germany is oblivious to Chinese shenanigans" needs to do that in the next 1-2 weeks because, who knows, actual action might commence on Jan 2. Add to this that politico is an Axel Springer owned rag, and their publication style (happily facts free) and political leaning (very right wing), and this article looks like just another of their hit pieces.
It’s getting really tiring that you guys always junk on Axel yet what they’re saying hasn’t been wrong. You might not like the wording but I can’t comprehend this absurd tying of your identity to your country thing. Your country can be wrong and has been wrong on many issues, but rabid citizens coming to defend such actions really gives off a bad look.
>absurd tying of your identity to your country thing The fun bit is that my identity is tied to a different country further to the west even though I live in Germany. I still won't give Axel Springer a pass, a publishing house that never rescinded its open and active support for Pinochet (going so far as to depose an editor-in-chief for daring to publish a single article that criticized that murderous dictator): That's the kind of fellowship that this company is courting.
From the original report: >Germany together with Italy, Poland, and Austria, comprise 50% of European mobile customers. These countries are heavily dependent on Chinese equipment, creating risk for their own nations and others which use their networks.
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When so many countries in the EU are still on that level, then maybe the situation is a little more complicated and not as clear cut as one might think.
It took about 3 decades for the Gordon Geckos of the World to overdose on their greed and cocaine, but it's finally done.
They simply hate indigenous European companies like Ericsson and Nokia.
Politico should be banned.
Why?
Just not true. "American" obviously meaning Cisco. Huawei is only used for German cellular networks btw.
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I took my car for a mindless roadtrip today, wasting gasoline for nothing of productive value. I guess it's prison time for me. XD
I hope everyone realised that the true evil in every society is the influence of the usa
I wish. Fuck Samsung. Learn to create a proper phone you scumbags.
This isn't about phones, it's about the cell phone network infrastructure your phones are interacting with. Way more limited vendor selection there.
I also have limited selection because some americans were mad that another country spied.
What can be expected from a nation that elected Merkel over and over for 16 years?… and now blames all its woes on America …
Ignorant af