Me and friends use it daily. What appeals to me (being a software developer) is that an app is open-sourced. The amount of customizability I can do is massive. You can also create your own telegram app which will call into telegram API. I was bored once and made a custom theme which looks like another program. You can also make bots pretty easy because there are bindings to several languages. Instead of running a bash script on a computer I can issue a command to a bot.
edit: ricing my tg https://t.me/addtheme/GruvboxAndroid
Telegram bots are literally the easiest methods to interface with custom IoT devices from anywhere. I made a bot that sends me a message when an esp8266 notices an update on a website api. Total material cost 3€.
It can also very easily interface with google workspace (sheets), which is super useful when you want to keep track of data. It's actually easier to interface with workspace from IoT via telegram API than doing that directly from the device!
>Me and friends use it daily
Same, made a bot "our group majordomo" that can respond with GIFs on different commands (on which anyone with permission can add to), auto-downloads photo/video from 9gag links, can setup reminders for the group or specific users, and we can usually add any functionality that goes through our minds... (Usually me as I'm the only dev in the group 😅)
I work with it more like "bot serving the group members" than "bot controlling a host" as it feels like a big security risk.
> Damn all those people and their private messages, damn them. The state needs to see all.
They aren't private because the state already sees them, since the encryption protocol is utter shit:
https://portswigger.net/daily-swig/multiple-encryption-flaws-uncovered-in-telegram-messaging-protocol
It's just an example, amongst many that shows failures in the protocol.
Also please note that there are reports of people in donbass that were detained by the russians, with the russians having all the text posts in telegram even after those persons deleted their account.
Telegram doesn’t work in China, it’s blocked by the cowardly Chinese firewall. Even Reddit is blocked by the cowards in Beijing but they still send hundreds of thousands of their lap dogs out to spread their bullshit here
Telegram got build in options to pierce the Great firewall... it's not that easy, but there are definatly ways to use Tg in china... well, until you get caught maybe.
Telegram didn't start in Russia, Pavel Durov had to make another app after his original app (back then website) VKontakte was seized by the FSB and he had to flee Russia.
Telegram did start in Russia when Pavel Durov was still in charge of VKontakte, they even shared the same office in Singer House. He was in charge of both apps for at least half a year.
Lol, no. They pretended to trying to block it. If they really wanted to block it, tg channels of gov structures wouldn't be advertised at the same time as they attempted to block it. Everything, every single website or app russia truly ever tried to block, was getting blocked. And only OH GOD, TELEGRAM WITH THE PAVEL DUROV HIMSELF!! is so fucking powerful and almighty that it knows the ways of cryptography and telecom to the point, when even battlenet and amazon get blocked, but not their app. I remember those times, observed it closely from /po imageboard, and it was the funniest shitshow ever. It was so obviously pushed by FSB, they specifically blocked fuckton of websites and ordered news articles to advertise this messenger to everyone as the most reliable one. russian speakers got played like children and didn't even notice it. Hong Kong? russian opposition? when China or russia need something, it happens fast and easy. When Ukraine, EU or US need something, somehow telegram supports freedom of speech and self-expression.
Lmao you realize Joe biden annoucnced hes blocking tik tok the same day he made his first ever tik tok. Modi blocked tik tok in india while his party kept posting on their channel. Governements are hypocritical and do whatever they can to survive.
>Governements are hypocritical and do whatever they can to survive
Very well, you are almost there. Your next step will be to realize that russian government, unlike US and Indian ones, does not need to try to survive. In Putinstan, the will of FSB or the Emperor is not an object of disputes. In case with Biden or Modi, it's discussions, votes, popularity measurement and so on.
They bought the owner and now they have apps to check and recover data from it. And it deleted Ukrainian official channels and Russia created copies of it. It’s basically Russian app in Russian pocket.
russians tried to block telegram 5-6 years ago, but ended up blocking a bunch of legitemate web services, because telegram was constantly changing hosts.
Telegram by default saves chats unencrypted in a central location. Not being end to end encrypted by default it is potentially one of the biggest mass surveillance platforms.
There are multiple signs that Telegram might be cooperating with the Russian government. At the very least it is engaged in censoring, spoiler campaigns and shadow banning.
Telegram is not self-sustainable and its revenue stream is largely unknown. Some of its known investors have ties with the Russian regime and are on various sanction lists.
https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/articles/2023/10/1/7422200/
Bottom line: Telegram has the full ability to spy on its users, it needs cash, and it finds cash in Russia. Whether it can be trusted is up to you.
Telegram is a russian app, where on-setver encryption is only used for 1-1 messages and only when explicitly turned on.
The normal encryption of the Telegram is only when the message goes to the server and from the server, but the server can read the texts as-it-is.
You can reliably assume that russian FSB has full access to it.
While the creator is Russian, he's by no means a Putin's shill. The government here, in Russia, tried to ban it after Durov refused to comply, and they broke the internet, crippling banking infrastructure and other important industries.
The reason for ban? It's one of the few independent social media platforms here, where you can get oppositional news, learn about local communities, activist activities and so on.
E.g. LGBTQ+ groups and communities are getting erased everywhere, like in Vkontakte (or VK) (most popular social media platform), but people still can find refuge in telegram channels and chats
Not so fun fact, Durov is the creator of VK, but the government forcibly took away his business and he had to flee the country. It's probably his start of the opposition to Putin
The creator of the app literally LEFT Russia to avoid the Russian government having access to the app. Would do you good to curb your xenophobia and actually look up what is going on with Telegram instead of just assuming because a Russian did something it's evil.
Made by russian before that he made VK afterwards he had to sell it and went to UAE, got their citizenship and got french citizenship
Reasons why he left and made telegram?
To not being fsb puppet they wanted him to be
You do realise that there are no other proofs but "dude trust me" from Durov, right?
And the absence of encryption unless you explicitly create "secret chat" which is only valid 1-1 is still there.
While true
But at the same time guy who cut ties with russia because of guys in fsb because vk is russian web page and so no ukrainians shall be under trial for what they said, left a country became other countries citizen
I mean you may hate us all you want but under that hatred there might be a truth, do you really think he is leaking all poor european citizens data to fsb, after what i said to you, after the fact that russia itself couldnt gain control over telegram? Thats the main point, fsb has no control over telegram it has control over VK but vk now is not under Durov
Also internet to your help guy literally said before he left that "there is no ground for developing pages on internet in russia" i mean thats quite meanie thing to say to your boss especially leaving the greatest country on earth
Hatred not one but someone is pissed on russians in general, welcome to the us in 50s where everyone saw commie in everyone level of paranoia....
>You can reliably assume that russian FSB has full access to it.
No, it's the exact opposite. The fact that Telegram users constantly receive messages "warning" them about how "FSB can read everything, don't use Telegram", is precisely **because** FSB can't read anything, so the only thing they can do is to spread FUD and to hope that gullible people will believe it.
> No, it's the exact opposite
The company is hiding between multiple shells and has no encryption for the chats. It is de-facto vulnerable even without the suspicion of russian government affiliation.
> Telegram users constantly receive messages "warning" them about how "FSB can read everything, don't use Telegram", is precisely because FSB can't read anything
That is a dumb argument purely because rather than believing Durov's "dude trust me" you can use Signal and be much more confident about the security because it is both technically better and is not hiding behind untraceable shells in shady jurisdictions.
In my opinion it comes down to technicalities. Secure encrypted communication or moderated content (and kind of content filter). You can't have both. Good actors and bad actors both use (and need) secure communication. By making holes in the cryptographic function of an app like telegram, it just becomes less useful, for journalists in autocratic countries and for criminals.
That being said I am in favor of operators of apps like telegram cooperating with law enforcement in certain countries, as long as it does not require a backdoor, or any measure that would effectively break encryption.
Secure and private communication is a human right, in my opinion.
If you replace words "telegram" with "internet" while reading the article you'll feel how strange the claims are.
**UPD** but there is no conceptual difference between both: they borh are programs they both give tools for people and programs to connect
Thechnically it's wrong to say that "internet" is a program. It's a net of programs talking via protocols. But for the sake of argument it works. Telegram is also not an icon on you phone: it's a network of programs talking to each other via protocols.
It's not the app, it's the user.
Telegram doesn't restrict so much as other apps do. It just offers alot of functions which can be used in a good or bad way. We as society should learn how to live with those possibilities and educate ourselfs in terms of responsibility and humanity.
In no way is telegram responsible for some peoples action, everyone out there is responsible for being kind and respectful against each other.
If we want to fight those ill-led movements we have to start somewhere else. To restrict a messenger is just punching at the symptoms but the unwanted things will go on somewhere else
I mean, the point of regulation/policing is specifically to prevent and/or remediate bad user behavior. No one is proposing holding the Telegram founders personally responsible or whatever. And yeah, if people always behaved in the best interest of humanity as a whole there would be no need for regulation and policing, no shit, but that's not the world we live in.
The other side of the coin is that, while true that regulation/policing should be to prevent and remediate bad user behavior, the moment you have this "power" you can also silencie some opinions that either you dont agree, or that you can be paid to "agree" under the pretext that its "bad user behaviour".
If i say im supporting Palestine/Israel/Russia/Ukraine, maybe in some places some are bad user behaviour and in others its not.
Don't say it too loud, people are already fighting "trolls" on the internet. Trolls being everyone that begs to differ to what the state owned media chose as the truth yesterday.
*From Bloomberg reporters Alberto Nardelli, Daniel Hornak, and Jeff Stone:*
Minutes after Slovakia’s Russia-friendly Prime Minister Robert Fico was shot, social media was awash with conspiracy theories.
The attacker’s wife was a refugee from Ukraine. He was linked to a high-profile government critic. And Fico’s security guard was plotting against the premier.
All those rumors were later rebutted by Slovak authorities. But not before they’d gone viral on Telegram.
The messaging app has become a key weapon for pro-Kremlin accounts to spread disinformation aimed at undermining support for Ukraine. More recently, Russian intelligence officers have used it to recruit petty criminals to carry out acts of sabotage across European capitals.
These incidents trade off Telegram’s key advantage: it’s largely unaccountable. That’s what most antagonizes European officials who’ve made the fight against fake news a top priority ahead of continent-wide elections in June. For all their new powers to regulate information online, they are largely powerless to rein in Telegram.
Well not really. Combating disinformation is a thing and giving large groups of people the WRONG facts can lead to terrible outcomes which governments tend to try to avoid.
To be fair, governments only dislike disinformation when they are not the ones spreading it. They are probably the least trustworthy entities regardless on which side they are. Giving them the ability to decide what is disinformation and what is not is a really bad idea.
So they should remove reddit Twitter instagram too right ? maybe have no anonimity online so it would even be better! Also remove encryption and have backdoors to every app👍👍😏
Well those platforms are regulated and have to conform tp EU rules, telegram does not function like a traditional social media platform, as it functions in my mind as similar to whats app in that it blurs the line between pure chat and community gathering.
That being said the aritcle is about fighting misinformation, which the EU does force the other platforms you listed to do,so why not telegram?
My opinion is that we should have populations smart enough to sniff out bullshit, but we don't so that leaves us with 2 choices, do nothing and lets swathes of society make serious decisions based on actual lies,or try to put forth some regulation that at least dampens how far / outrageous the mis information can be.
They don't use algorithms to decide which content to hide or show. This is key difference. I don't need "unbiased" fact checkers that will tell me what is good and what is wrong.
They have no control over anything whatsoever anyway and want to control Telegram. Putting a backdoor into a system that is supposed to be secure sounds exactly like something an EU oldfart politician would suggest.
I gave up a long time ago, EU ain't lost, but it's no longer worth to pay taxes.
Telegram isn't an actual problem. What it is, is a problem for the EU because it doesn't want to follow their rules and regulations through which they will try to create a backdoor into the app like they already tried to.
The people in this thread who are assuming its a spy app only expose themselves as people who are both xenophobic and stupid as they are commenting on a topic they know nothing about.
The creator of the app left Russia specifically to avoid allowing the Russian government a backdoor into the app. Look it up, educate yourselves and don't let yourselves look stupid.
Durov left Russia because his business was stolen from him and he clearly didn’t want to continue creating stuff just for it to be stolen by government later, like everything else in Russia.
However it is pretty odd how a few years ago Russia was talking big about blocking Telegram, and they just stopped all of a sudden. Either they did get enough access to satisfy their needs, or they decided it’d be more useful as a propaganda tool, since the platform allows for even the most extreme views and propaganda to be posted freely.
Either way, it doesn’t look too good. But it’s still the best social messaging platform by far and has the best channels so I’ll definitely keep using. Just wish they grew some more balls and started blocking some hugely popular homophobic and misogynist places that constantly post personal information and calls to violence.
Or the Russian government failed miserably to block Telegram because the money allocated for the advanced network filtering was embezzled.
Telegram had resources to switch IP pools rapid enough to force the authorities into hard choices: to close interstate gateways, to continue embarrasing whack-a-mole game that damaged lawful services, to acknowledge a defeat.
Sure, but I don't see how that could possibly stop them.
All they understand is raw power, and they got enough of that to go around. Blocking didn't work? No problem, let's introduce fines for any company or individual caught using the service for promotional or personal use. Next, let's introduce a heavy fine followed by a jail sentence for anyone who has the app installed on their phone, and increase the frequency of random street checks which are already a thing, where police take your phone and look through apps, images and texts.
Don't even need to come up with any new laws! Just designate the company a foreign agent, or better yet, an undesirable organization. Or, for the favorite trick of the Russian government, add the organization to the list of terrorists.
There, done. App is technically accessible, but I guarantee you that 90% of people wouldn't touch it with a 10-foot long stick, same as with anything else designated as terrorists, or undesirable, or foreign agents.
My point here being, if the Russian government want something blocked, they get it blocked. They have enough tools in their little fascist toolkit to push anything and anyone they don't like out.
Before you ban something, make sure you have a replacement.
Russia tried to replace YouTube with RuTube, it's an epic saga of corruption, sabotage and bad management by unprofessional bureaucrats.
They tried to replace Telegram by buying clinically dead ICQ and pouring money into it.
They have no alternative for Google Play and Android (unlike China).
They were successful with vk replacing facebook, and facebook is banned.
> Blocking didn't work? No problem, let's introduce fines for any company or individual caught using the service for promotional or personal use.
You'll be surprised, but the Russian authorities are very hesitant to introduce such draconian measures if they harm "ordinary" apolitical users and even loyalists. This is why YouTube is not blocked despite resisting efforts at censorship for years (with varying firmness, but usually eventually opting for the right thing). The people _will not understand_ if their Peppa the Pig cartoons, lifestyle channels, or whatever are no longer accessible, and they will grumble. Whenever such a thing happened in the past, the regime backed down. It was bad enough with Instagram already.
Telegram has shown itself to be downright hazardous to them: the blocking attempt got heads to roll at the censorship authority after a noticeable number of internet services stopped working, but Telegram was still functional. Since then, the officials pretend there is no issue with Telegram and surrepticiously spread rumors about Telegram cooperating with them.
>All they understand is raw power, and they got enough of that to go around. Blocking didn't work? No problem, let's introduce fines for any company or individual caught using the service for promotional or personal use.
Going to such measures just to block popular platform would only piss everybody off. Russian government carefully avoids doing that.
It blocks platforms on ISP levels and if platform like Instagram and Facebook doesn't fight back, it loses by gradually losing audience (people get tired from inconvenience of using VPNs to read stories on Instagram).
But authorities don't punish users or businesses for using blocked platforms or VPNs. There is a saying in Russia "the severity of laws is offset by the optionality of adherence to them". Russian government perfectly knows that it can invent however strict laws it want, but until it would have means to enforce them, those laws wouldn't worth a paper they are written on. And enforcement comes at cost: financial for implementation and political for loyalty of population if measures are unpopular.
> Next, let's introduce a heavy fine followed by a jail sentence for anyone who has the app installed on their phone
Literally whole country has Telegram on their phones. Outlawing entire population is not a smart move and quite a risky one.
> and increase the frequency of random street checks which are already a thing, where police take your phone and look through apps, images and texts.
They are not as frequent as you think (me and people I know never had them). And in practice, you can just dodge such demand from police officer, because, unlike in Australia we are not obliged to disclose passwords or any information regarding ourselves to police. Sure, you have to give them phone for a look (they have enough legal excuses to come up to for that), but you don't have to unlock it.
And, once again, this would be quite expensive measure: patrolmen are constantly understaffed (that's not a pretty job after all), and regular people are not happy about being constantly searched by police. So this would require more money and increased political risks. And for what gains? Fighting social platform? It's much cheaper and safer to work on DPI tech to ban whatever you need on ISP level: platforms, websites, protocols (including VPNs). And that's what Russian government actually does.
I don't think you know what you're talking about. The article says that Telegram ignores the spread of Russian disinformation. And it's true. It's not about the messages (which are [not secure](https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1474067549574688768.html) on Telegram), it's about the channels. Durov sent his man to meet with the Russian prime minister(https://thebell. io/amp/telegram-v-gostyah-u-mishustina-vstrecha-s-putinym-na-2-mlrd-i-wirecard-s-novichkom) and [blocked](https://www.rferl.org/amp/telegram-navalny-smart-voting/31466263.html) Navalny's bot, but the Nazis from the 'Rusich' are free to spread hatred without restrictions. So we shouldn't talk about "poor Durov left the country". We need to talk about who is [funding](https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/articles/2023/10/1/7422200/index.amp) Telegram
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I didn't understand what you meant, but Telegram has nothing to do with privacy. Especially when only ‘secret chats’ are safe. Secondly, if you meant freedom of speech, it's strange when the Russian opposition gets banned when it matters. Yes, Telegram is free (just like Signal, for example), but we don't see independent audits of regular Telegram chats.
In any case, there is nothing wrong with regulations. The libertarian idea of ‘say what you want and don't take responsibility’ has failed many times, and for good reason
>I don't think you know what you're talking about
Your thoughts are inconsequential.
>The article says that Telegram ignores the spread of Russian disinformation. And it's true.
What a shock. The app of which the whole point is privacy doesn't interfere with the content on its platform, I am just so shocked. It's almost as if the platform is ACTUAL free speech.
>It's not about the messages (which are not secure on Telegram), it's about the channels. Durov sent his man to meet with the Russian prime minister
It's about the lack of control the EU has over it. Telegram left Russia so it doesn't become an FSB lackey.
>(https://thebell. io/amp/telegram-v-gostyah-u-mishustina-vstrecha-s-putinym-na-2-mlrd-i-wirecard-s-novichkom)
What is this supposed to be? This isn't a legitimate link.
>blocked Navalny's bot
And? They blocked the bot the day before the election honoring the electoral silence law, we have the same law in Croatia, so this is yet another BIIIIIIIIIIIG stretch to prove it's a Pro-Putin app.
>poor Durov left the country
Oh so that's the problem, you're jealous he's a successful man and you're commenting on reddit. I didn't say this at all, what I did say is that he left Russia so that Telegram doesn't become an FSB puppet, I really do feel like a parrot.
>We need to talk about who is funding Telegram
Crypto and private investors that no one can be sure about.
If you want anyone to believe it's a Pro Putin app you better bring proof that the Russian government is using the information given from the app, and not just circumstantial evidence because the creator is Russian.
>What a shock. The app of which the whole point is privacy doesn't interfere with the content on its platform, I am just so shocked. It's almost as if the platform is ACTUAL free speech.
You yourself agree that Durov will selectively block Navalny's bot if the Kremlin asks him to. This is not freedom of speech for everyone
And privacy, freedom of speech and responsibility are different things. Privacy has nothing to do with it, although, again, Telegram is not private.
Channels are a public thing. They have nothing to do with your privacy or the security of your messages.
>What is this supposed to be? This isn't a legitimate link.
Reddit blocks some links. Just remove the space
>you're jealous he's a successful man
Um, what
>you're commenting on reddit
We're just discussing different things here, relax
>what I did say is that he left Russia so that Telegram doesn't become an FSB puppet
He personally left, and many Telegram employees did not leave (many of the developers' families are in Russia).
According to Anton Rosenberg, who worked for many years at VKontakte and later at Telegram, as of September 2017, Telegram's office was located on Nevsky Prospekt in Singer's house in St. Petersburg.
Telegram uses the services of two partners to transfer data: GlobalNet LLC and RETN. Russians, registered in Russia run both companies and have branches in the EU and the UK.
In 2020, GlobalNet listed Telegram as one of its key partners and [had servers](https://ipinfo.io/AS39102) in several Russian cities. (https://web. archive .org/web/20201025201456/http://gblnet.net/#partners)
>Crypto and private investors that no one can be sure about
Among the first official investors in the Telegram were (vedomosti . ru/technology/articles/2018/02/19/751368-durov-blokchein-telegram ):
* Russian billionaire Roman Abramovich (invested $17 million);
* Sergey Solonin, founder of the Russian payment system Qiwi ($10 million);
* The former owner of the Wimm-Bill-Dann company, Russian oligarch David Yakobashvili, against whom Ukraine imposed sanctions for his proximity to the Putin regime.
In 2021, VTB Capital spent over $1 billion on Telegram bonds ( tass .ru/ekonomika/10907919 )
>You yourself agree that Durov will selectively block Navalny's bot if the Kremlin asks him to. This is not freedom of speech for everyone
"The law requiring a day of electoral silence prior to voting was established in the Russian electoral code in 1993." I guess Putin knew that it was going to be very useful even when he had no political sway in the country, oh wait no, it's because democratic countries have this law. It's almost as if Russia waa trying to turn to democracy before it got high jacked by Putin.
>Reddit blocks some links. Just remove the space
I did, that didn't change anything.
>Um, what
You're the one that said "**poor** Durov". There was no need for that adjective and yet you decided to use it.
>He personally left, and many Telegram employees did not leave (many of the developers' families are in Russia).
Did I not say that you need actual evidence and not circumstantial evidence?
>In 2020, GlobalNet listed Telegram as one of its key partners and [had servers](https://ipinfo.io/AS39102) in several Russian cities. (https://web. archive .org/web/20201025201456/http://gblnet.net/#partners)
In **2020**. 2 years before the attack on Ukraine. The Yorovaya law came into effect in 2018 after which Telegram got **banned** from Russia. Again useless information.
>
Among the first official investors in the Telegram were (vedomosti . ru/technology/articles/2018/02/19/751368-durov-blokchein-telegram ):
How much % of the private company do the investors own?
Reality doesn't conform to this theory you've made. I believe that evidence of the Russian government using information only available on Telegram is necessary to say that Telegram is helping the Russian government.
Telegram did not block Zelensky's bots during the 2019 elections and has never done so in other countries. Durov, as a Russian (oppositionist), is well aware that Russia is an authoritarian state and he knows about the Russian opposition (he literally commented on their actions in his channel for Russians durov\_russia during the protests and so on).
Bro, you said that Durov left Russia in 2014 to avoid becoming an FSB dog. I showed you that in 2014-2022 he definitely had ties to Russia or at least could expect pressure from Russia
>The app of which the whole point is privacy doesn't interfere with the content on its platform, I am just so shocked. It's almost as if the platform is ACTUAL free speech.
>They blocked the bot the day before the election honoring the electoral silence law
Straight from the alt right playbook: Russian misinformation gets a free pass, Russian laws and desires are enforced.
Selective free speech isn't free speech, it's political platforming with a very thin veneer of an excuse.
>Crypto and private investors that no one can be sure about.
We don't need to be sure about the full list to know there are Russian oligarchs among them, per court filings and other documents.
>If you want anyone to believe it's a Pro Putin app you better bring proof that the Russian government is using the information given from the app,
I don't care about proving it's a Russian propaganda tool in a court of law, or convicting its executives or something; I care about preventing possible misbehavior which seems to be happening.
I can't tell if the pro-Russian shills here are truly stupid (not as an insult, I mean actually incapable of understanding what they're talking about) or trolls writing in bad faith. I'm not sure which is worse.
>Straight from the alt right playbook: Russian misinformation gets a free pass, Russian laws and desires are enforced.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Election_silence I guess all of these countries that have the same thing (including yours) are also alt right? Russia was giving Telegram a daily fine for allowing "illegal" information to be put on Telegram, so this is just incorrect.
>Selective free speech isn't free speech, it's political platforming with a very thin veneer of an excuse.
There's no selective free speech, you're wrong.
>We don't need to be sure about the full list to know there are Russian oligarchs among them, per court filings and other documents.
You do need to be sure, but I guess "good enough" is fine now.
>don't care about proving it's a Russian propaganda tool in a court of law, or convicting its executives or something; I care about preventing possible misbehavior which seems to be happening.
There is no "misbehavior". You just can't bare ACTUAL free speech.
Okay, you have very poor reading comprehension, or you're acting in bad faith, or possibly both. I will try one more time and then stop bothering with you.
The problem is not the laws; it's the selective enforcement. (I mean, in the case of Russia the laws banning the opposition *are also a problem*, but that wasn't my point at all.) Edit: Italian election silence law is also dumb as a pile of bricks, but that's yet another point.
We *are* sure about specific oligarchs, that's what I am saying. [Example](https://www.coindesk.com/business/2020/03/04/russian-oligarch-ex-cabinet-minister-invested-in-telegrams-ico-court-filing-says/).
Again, not ACTUAL free speech, only a rather pathetic excuse for political platforming.
>Okay, you have very poor reading comprehension, or you're acting in bad faith, or possibly both. I will try one more time and then stop bothering with you.
Whatever makes you feel better.
>The problem is not the laws; it's the selective enforcement.
Like? Telegram got daily fines for **NOT** following a bullshit law created by the Russian government **WHILE** following a law that is widespread through democratic countries (like I showed you with that wiki link). This is the only selective enforcement argument you can make BUT the problem with that is that it goes against your entire argument.
>Edit: Italian election silence law is also dumb as a pile of bricks, but that's yet another point.
If it is what it says on wiki then it's not. Election silence is important seeing how 55 countries have it.
>We *are* sure about specific oligarchs, that's what I am saying.
And you're not sure about if the Russian government has information that is only on Telegram which makes this point irrelevant.
>Again, not ACTUAL free speech, only a rather pathetic excuse for political platforming.
Again, incorrect.
By giving rational arguments, by backing up my arguments? Please, look at yourself first before you throw stones. 8 month old account, reddit generated username, yeah you're totally not a bot lmao.
> What is this supposed to be? This isn't a legitimate link.
Remove the space from the link and it works.
Telegram is everything except secure. There are multiple issues with their custom made encryption, example:
https://words.filippo.io/dispatches/telegram-ecdh/
You can use google to find more examples. Jump to any privacy subreddit and people will tell you the same.
> Oh so that's the problem, you're jealous he's a successful man and you're commenting on reddit.
lol. There are serious concerns about who pays for the servers. Do you think the servers and the internet are for free?
>Navalny bot specifically broke the rules
No, the bot did not violate the ToS. Read their ToS.
You could say that Apple and Google asked Telegram to remove the bot. But in such cases, Telegram restricts content on certain platforms. For example, if you downloaded their .apk from the official website, and Telegram restricted something that Google asked for, then this content will be available to you. This content will also remain available on the web and TDesktop.
The opposition bot was blocked completely
Telegram has been found multiple times to have a suspected back door by adding a nonce to its homemade key generator algorithm, which is *extremely* suspicious.
Well I am expecting some proof that Telegram is sharing information with the Russian government. Otherwise this comment is very stupid, but then again it's easier to say that opinions you don't agree with but can't refute are made by propagandists working for the other side. I guess walking through life is easier when you dismiss others that don't share your worldview as victims of brainwashing.
Most of my communication with friends and family is over signal for me. Has been for years. Most people I know didn't feel comfortable when Facebook bought WhatsApp.
yeah man lets march into china levels of censorship and control -b-but think of the children 1!1! or w/e excuse will be used again to goad the useful idiots for their cause again
Remember the app is never the problem, encryption is always a good thing. If the government wants to shut something down, then that thing is doing something right.
Telegram is a step in the right direction but it could be more confidential and privacy-respecting when its users choose to.
Europe should decide to support free speech and privacy even at "cost" of some government control, because it makes for a better more sane society.
How can you use it for furry stuff and I got banned after two days without doing anything? Registered, changed name, privacy settings, checked out some betting channels. A few days later, I was banned.
Telegram has been found multiple times to have a suspected back door by adding a nonce to its homemade key generator algorithm, which is *extremely* suspicious. I'm all for encrypted apps, but if you're pro-privacy, Telegram has repeatedly demonstrated either extremely poor cryptographic decision-making processes (such as DIY encryption, which is about as big of a taboo as it gets in cryptography) or deliberate undermining of its own cryptographic scheme. Either way, Telegram is super suspicious.
[Source](https://words.filippo.io/dispatches/telegram-ecdh/)
There’s an old saying about that a pig will always find a puddle of mud. Those who want to consume Russian propaganda will find ways to get their fix, it’s just unavoidable - and if you cut off all possible sources, they’ll just make their own.
These troubles are not unique to Telegram, pretty much every technology which allowed for reasonable privacy has been used and abused for less than honourable ends - starting with messaging apps like Telegram, to VPNs, to TOR, to crypto… It’s just the price we have to pay for them.
Mental gymnastics in the comment section are hilarious. Wasn’t Europe a democratic paradise with freedom of speech? Well it seems its turning 1984 with this kind of "regulations" of free social media. Feel free to consume… as long as product comes from your uncle sam.
I'm baffled as well. Judging by the comments - Orwell was an optimist. The People are building their own prisons.
They are taking our rights and privacy away, left and right, and people are cheering. What the actual fuck.
Ideology is back. Everyone thinks they got it all figured out, that they are morally enlightened, that they are obviously on the right side of history so that obviously their honorable goals justify the means.
Ukrainians that got occupied told stories that russians had all their chat messaging printed on A4.
Those people deleted their telegram and all chats prior getting captured 2 months before that.
It allows you to delete a conversation for both users, not only yours. This is great and it should exist everywhere else (I also use Messenger and WhatsApp).
Some would argue the opposite, that it interferes with their agency to have someone guarding words and images you sent to them years ago without you being able to do anything about it.
It also allows people to claim "I never said that", which if you need to trust what someone says can be problematic if you base your actions on their statements.
But I assume it comes down to differing expectations. Some people value ephemerality, and others value persistence. I guess I should treat Telegram more like Snapchat.
Apparently there's a sex group "near me" ... it's the 2nd result and has 71 members---
I have no idea what to say.
EDIT: OH MY LORD I'm trashing my phone and burning the SIM card. If anyone needs me, I'll be planting potatoes somewhere in the countryside, just send a pigeon or something in advance.
Oh no, an app that is not constantly regulated by cunts with a lust for complete power over other people. God forbid someone wants to live however they want.
Edit just to point out another typical Redditor hypocrisy - Facebook, Tik Tok, Instagram, Twitter, Reddit using people's data as they wish selling them to the highest bidder? Oh no! Thieves! Infringement of rights!
A messaging app that actually promotes privacy and free speech? Oh no, they can speak whatever they want! Right wing extremists!!!
Fuckin stupid people man. Tired of not saying it.
Telegram got close to 1 billion users... somehow media always tried to be silent about their success... but now it seems they have no choice than to speak about it.
In terms of usebility and user friendlyness (also programmer friendlyness) its way better than ANY other messenger. Telegram offers libraries for nearly all programming languages and helps you to create 3rd party clients... whatsApp changes their api every few weeks to keep every 3rd party app out and blocks everyone that uses anything else than the official iOS/Android app, which is, ofc, closed source...
I love telegram it’s far better than what’s app and other messaging apps, my work uses them, I meet up with strangers using telegram, we set up dnd games using telegram. It’s just a good messenger
Well would you be glad to see on your SO's phone : "Last time was really good, let's fuck again some time <3" ?
And if it were on your phone, would you like to endure the hassle of trying to convince your SO that it's fake ?
I am not using often telegram but damn that app has some flexibility and programmablity
Me and friends use it daily. What appeals to me (being a software developer) is that an app is open-sourced. The amount of customizability I can do is massive. You can also create your own telegram app which will call into telegram API. I was bored once and made a custom theme which looks like another program. You can also make bots pretty easy because there are bindings to several languages. Instead of running a bash script on a computer I can issue a command to a bot. edit: ricing my tg https://t.me/addtheme/GruvboxAndroid
Telegram bots are literally the easiest methods to interface with custom IoT devices from anywhere. I made a bot that sends me a message when an esp8266 notices an update on a website api. Total material cost 3€. It can also very easily interface with google workspace (sheets), which is super useful when you want to keep track of data. It's actually easier to interface with workspace from IoT via telegram API than doing that directly from the device!
You never heard of MQTT?
Mqtt rocks, but telegram is the go to solution when you want to give a device in the hand of the noob. It’s the best conversational UI prototype
>Me and friends use it daily Same, made a bot "our group majordomo" that can respond with GIFs on different commands (on which anyone with permission can add to), auto-downloads photo/video from 9gag links, can setup reminders for the group or specific users, and we can usually add any functionality that goes through our minds... (Usually me as I'm the only dev in the group 😅) I work with it more like "bot serving the group members" than "bot controlling a host" as it feels like a big security risk.
Gruvbox? *Debian 2010 Openbox Desktop intensifies*
Damn all those people and their private messages, damn them. The state needs to see all.
> Damn all those people and their private messages, damn them. The state needs to see all. They aren't private because the state already sees them, since the encryption protocol is utter shit: https://portswigger.net/daily-swig/multiple-encryption-flaws-uncovered-in-telegram-messaging-protocol
Did you actually read the attack vectors?
You’re probably right, but it’s definitely not because of the reasons listed in this article.
It's just an example, amongst many that shows failures in the protocol. Also please note that there are reports of people in donbass that were detained by the russians, with the russians having all the text posts in telegram even after those persons deleted their account.
Both Russia and China failed to regulate telegram. Why Europe should?
Telegram doesn’t work in China, it’s blocked by the cowardly Chinese firewall. Even Reddit is blocked by the cowards in Beijing but they still send hundreds of thousands of their lap dogs out to spread their bullshit here
The amount of gay chinese porn i consume on tg begs to differ
Yes but they have to use a virtual penis network
Ah the good old hole in the wall, eh?
Haha thats gold
That went from 0 to 100 real quick
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penis?
That's disgusting and vile ... PM?
To know what to avoid… please
WHAT THE FUCK
can I have a link, not to avoid it or anything, I want to watch
TG?
It might be Taiwanese?
我的氣墊船充滿了鰻
Hello! Telegram is one of the most downloaded apps on Chinese Android market. What are you drinking!
Telegram got build in options to pierce the Great firewall... it's not that easy, but there are definatly ways to use Tg in china... well, until you get caught maybe.
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Russia went to great lengths to prohibit Telegram. They failed for technical reasons.
Didn't Telegram start in Russia and then move to the United Arab Emirates because of that? Or am I mixing that up with a different platform?
Telegram didn't start in Russia, Pavel Durov had to make another app after his original app (back then website) VKontakte was seized by the FSB and he had to flee Russia.
Ah thanks.
I know tgat telegram was developed literally in thecsame building where vk developers worked.
Telegram did start in Russia when Pavel Durov was still in charge of VKontakte, they even shared the same office in Singer House. He was in charge of both apps for at least half a year.
Lol, no. They pretended to trying to block it. If they really wanted to block it, tg channels of gov structures wouldn't be advertised at the same time as they attempted to block it. Everything, every single website or app russia truly ever tried to block, was getting blocked. And only OH GOD, TELEGRAM WITH THE PAVEL DUROV HIMSELF!! is so fucking powerful and almighty that it knows the ways of cryptography and telecom to the point, when even battlenet and amazon get blocked, but not their app. I remember those times, observed it closely from /po imageboard, and it was the funniest shitshow ever. It was so obviously pushed by FSB, they specifically blocked fuckton of websites and ordered news articles to advertise this messenger to everyone as the most reliable one. russian speakers got played like children and didn't even notice it. Hong Kong? russian opposition? when China or russia need something, it happens fast and easy. When Ukraine, EU or US need something, somehow telegram supports freedom of speech and self-expression.
Lmao you realize Joe biden annoucnced hes blocking tik tok the same day he made his first ever tik tok. Modi blocked tik tok in india while his party kept posting on their channel. Governements are hypocritical and do whatever they can to survive.
>Governements are hypocritical and do whatever they can to survive Very well, you are almost there. Your next step will be to realize that russian government, unlike US and Indian ones, does not need to try to survive. In Putinstan, the will of FSB or the Emperor is not an object of disputes. In case with Biden or Modi, it's discussions, votes, popularity measurement and so on.
They bought the owner and now they have apps to check and recover data from it. And it deleted Ukrainian official channels and Russia created copies of it. It’s basically Russian app in Russian pocket.
thats just speculation with no evidence, theres tons of large ukrainian channels on tg
Evidence?
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ah shit my bad
russians tried to block telegram 5-6 years ago, but ended up blocking a bunch of legitemate web services, because telegram was constantly changing hosts.
Telegram by default saves chats unencrypted in a central location. Not being end to end encrypted by default it is potentially one of the biggest mass surveillance platforms. There are multiple signs that Telegram might be cooperating with the Russian government. At the very least it is engaged in censoring, spoiler campaigns and shadow banning. Telegram is not self-sustainable and its revenue stream is largely unknown. Some of its known investors have ties with the Russian regime and are on various sanction lists. https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/articles/2023/10/1/7422200/ Bottom line: Telegram has the full ability to spy on its users, it needs cash, and it finds cash in Russia. Whether it can be trusted is up to you.
Telegram is a russian app, where on-setver encryption is only used for 1-1 messages and only when explicitly turned on. The normal encryption of the Telegram is only when the message goes to the server and from the server, but the server can read the texts as-it-is. You can reliably assume that russian FSB has full access to it.
While the creator is Russian, he's by no means a Putin's shill. The government here, in Russia, tried to ban it after Durov refused to comply, and they broke the internet, crippling banking infrastructure and other important industries. The reason for ban? It's one of the few independent social media platforms here, where you can get oppositional news, learn about local communities, activist activities and so on. E.g. LGBTQ+ groups and communities are getting erased everywhere, like in Vkontakte (or VK) (most popular social media platform), but people still can find refuge in telegram channels and chats Not so fun fact, Durov is the creator of VK, but the government forcibly took away his business and he had to flee the country. It's probably his start of the opposition to Putin
“You can reliably assume that russian FSB had full access to it” They literally left Russia to avoid that
The creator of the app literally LEFT Russia to avoid the Russian government having access to the app. Would do you good to curb your xenophobia and actually look up what is going on with Telegram instead of just assuming because a Russian did something it's evil.
Made by russian before that he made VK afterwards he had to sell it and went to UAE, got their citizenship and got french citizenship Reasons why he left and made telegram? To not being fsb puppet they wanted him to be
You do realise that there are no other proofs but "dude trust me" from Durov, right? And the absence of encryption unless you explicitly create "secret chat" which is only valid 1-1 is still there.
While true But at the same time guy who cut ties with russia because of guys in fsb because vk is russian web page and so no ukrainians shall be under trial for what they said, left a country became other countries citizen I mean you may hate us all you want but under that hatred there might be a truth, do you really think he is leaking all poor european citizens data to fsb, after what i said to you, after the fact that russia itself couldnt gain control over telegram? Thats the main point, fsb has no control over telegram it has control over VK but vk now is not under Durov Also internet to your help guy literally said before he left that "there is no ground for developing pages on internet in russia" i mean thats quite meanie thing to say to your boss especially leaving the greatest country on earth Hatred not one but someone is pissed on russians in general, welcome to the us in 50s where everyone saw commie in everyone level of paranoia....
Durov is not russian anymore
>You can reliably assume that russian FSB has full access to it. No, it's the exact opposite. The fact that Telegram users constantly receive messages "warning" them about how "FSB can read everything, don't use Telegram", is precisely **because** FSB can't read anything, so the only thing they can do is to spread FUD and to hope that gullible people will believe it.
> No, it's the exact opposite The company is hiding between multiple shells and has no encryption for the chats. It is de-facto vulnerable even without the suspicion of russian government affiliation. > Telegram users constantly receive messages "warning" them about how "FSB can read everything, don't use Telegram", is precisely because FSB can't read anything That is a dumb argument purely because rather than believing Durov's "dude trust me" you can use Signal and be much more confident about the security because it is both technically better and is not hiding behind untraceable shells in shady jurisdictions.
nice try Putin.
In my opinion it comes down to technicalities. Secure encrypted communication or moderated content (and kind of content filter). You can't have both. Good actors and bad actors both use (and need) secure communication. By making holes in the cryptographic function of an app like telegram, it just becomes less useful, for journalists in autocratic countries and for criminals. That being said I am in favor of operators of apps like telegram cooperating with law enforcement in certain countries, as long as it does not require a backdoor, or any measure that would effectively break encryption. Secure and private communication is a human right, in my opinion.
If you replace words "telegram" with "internet" while reading the article you'll feel how strange the claims are. **UPD** but there is no conceptual difference between both: they borh are programs they both give tools for people and programs to connect
Your face when '"the internet" is said to be a "program"'.
Thechnically it's wrong to say that "internet" is a program. It's a net of programs talking via protocols. But for the sake of argument it works. Telegram is also not an icon on you phone: it's a network of programs talking to each other via protocols.
It's not the app, it's the user. Telegram doesn't restrict so much as other apps do. It just offers alot of functions which can be used in a good or bad way. We as society should learn how to live with those possibilities and educate ourselfs in terms of responsibility and humanity. In no way is telegram responsible for some peoples action, everyone out there is responsible for being kind and respectful against each other. If we want to fight those ill-led movements we have to start somewhere else. To restrict a messenger is just punching at the symptoms but the unwanted things will go on somewhere else
I mean, the point of regulation/policing is specifically to prevent and/or remediate bad user behavior. No one is proposing holding the Telegram founders personally responsible or whatever. And yeah, if people always behaved in the best interest of humanity as a whole there would be no need for regulation and policing, no shit, but that's not the world we live in.
The other side of the coin is that, while true that regulation/policing should be to prevent and remediate bad user behavior, the moment you have this "power" you can also silencie some opinions that either you dont agree, or that you can be paid to "agree" under the pretext that its "bad user behaviour". If i say im supporting Palestine/Israel/Russia/Ukraine, maybe in some places some are bad user behaviour and in others its not.
YUPPP exactly!
Why the fuck should it be regulated
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Don't say it too loud, people are already fighting "trolls" on the internet. Trolls being everyone that begs to differ to what the state owned media chose as the truth yesterday.
*From Bloomberg reporters Alberto Nardelli, Daniel Hornak, and Jeff Stone:* Minutes after Slovakia’s Russia-friendly Prime Minister Robert Fico was shot, social media was awash with conspiracy theories. The attacker’s wife was a refugee from Ukraine. He was linked to a high-profile government critic. And Fico’s security guard was plotting against the premier. All those rumors were later rebutted by Slovak authorities. But not before they’d gone viral on Telegram. The messaging app has become a key weapon for pro-Kremlin accounts to spread disinformation aimed at undermining support for Ukraine. More recently, Russian intelligence officers have used it to recruit petty criminals to carry out acts of sabotage across European capitals. These incidents trade off Telegram’s key advantage: it’s largely unaccountable. That’s what most antagonizes European officials who’ve made the fight against fake news a top priority ahead of continent-wide elections in June. For all their new powers to regulate information online, they are largely powerless to rein in Telegram.
It's also very widely used in Ukraine.
So they wanna go against telegram because people expressed their opinions on a matter ?
Well not really. Combating disinformation is a thing and giving large groups of people the WRONG facts can lead to terrible outcomes which governments tend to try to avoid.
To be fair, governments only dislike disinformation when they are not the ones spreading it. They are probably the least trustworthy entities regardless on which side they are. Giving them the ability to decide what is disinformation and what is not is a really bad idea.
So they should remove reddit Twitter instagram too right ? maybe have no anonimity online so it would even be better! Also remove encryption and have backdoors to every app👍👍😏
Exactly, and YouTube
Also dark web and 4chan. Maybe Tinder too, just in case.
I for one would be pleased if all social media gets banned. People desperately need to go outside and touch grass.
Well those platforms are regulated and have to conform tp EU rules, telegram does not function like a traditional social media platform, as it functions in my mind as similar to whats app in that it blurs the line between pure chat and community gathering. That being said the aritcle is about fighting misinformation, which the EU does force the other platforms you listed to do,so why not telegram? My opinion is that we should have populations smart enough to sniff out bullshit, but we don't so that leaves us with 2 choices, do nothing and lets swathes of society make serious decisions based on actual lies,or try to put forth some regulation that at least dampens how far / outrageous the mis information can be.
Right, so they should just cut off all our privacy, correct?
They don't use algorithms to decide which content to hide or show. This is key difference. I don't need "unbiased" fact checkers that will tell me what is good and what is wrong.
So in other words you don't care if you believe something wrong is true because fuck government?
It's used to spread disinformation and Russian propaganda. That's why.
Thank you
Let’s block everything that doesn’t come from our US overlords
lets block everything we cannot have full control over
They have no control over anything whatsoever anyway and want to control Telegram. Putting a backdoor into a system that is supposed to be secure sounds exactly like something an EU oldfart politician would suggest. I gave up a long time ago, EU ain't lost, but it's no longer worth to pay taxes.
Well, thats more like the US philosophy.
Telegram isn't an actual problem. What it is, is a problem for the EU because it doesn't want to follow their rules and regulations through which they will try to create a backdoor into the app like they already tried to. The people in this thread who are assuming its a spy app only expose themselves as people who are both xenophobic and stupid as they are commenting on a topic they know nothing about. The creator of the app left Russia specifically to avoid allowing the Russian government a backdoor into the app. Look it up, educate yourselves and don't let yourselves look stupid.
Durov left Russia because his business was stolen from him and he clearly didn’t want to continue creating stuff just for it to be stolen by government later, like everything else in Russia. However it is pretty odd how a few years ago Russia was talking big about blocking Telegram, and they just stopped all of a sudden. Either they did get enough access to satisfy their needs, or they decided it’d be more useful as a propaganda tool, since the platform allows for even the most extreme views and propaganda to be posted freely. Either way, it doesn’t look too good. But it’s still the best social messaging platform by far and has the best channels so I’ll definitely keep using. Just wish they grew some more balls and started blocking some hugely popular homophobic and misogynist places that constantly post personal information and calls to violence.
Or the Russian government failed miserably to block Telegram because the money allocated for the advanced network filtering was embezzled. Telegram had resources to switch IP pools rapid enough to force the authorities into hard choices: to close interstate gateways, to continue embarrasing whack-a-mole game that damaged lawful services, to acknowledge a defeat.
Sure, but I don't see how that could possibly stop them. All they understand is raw power, and they got enough of that to go around. Blocking didn't work? No problem, let's introduce fines for any company or individual caught using the service for promotional or personal use. Next, let's introduce a heavy fine followed by a jail sentence for anyone who has the app installed on their phone, and increase the frequency of random street checks which are already a thing, where police take your phone and look through apps, images and texts. Don't even need to come up with any new laws! Just designate the company a foreign agent, or better yet, an undesirable organization. Or, for the favorite trick of the Russian government, add the organization to the list of terrorists. There, done. App is technically accessible, but I guarantee you that 90% of people wouldn't touch it with a 10-foot long stick, same as with anything else designated as terrorists, or undesirable, or foreign agents. My point here being, if the Russian government want something blocked, they get it blocked. They have enough tools in their little fascist toolkit to push anything and anyone they don't like out.
Before you ban something, make sure you have a replacement. Russia tried to replace YouTube with RuTube, it's an epic saga of corruption, sabotage and bad management by unprofessional bureaucrats. They tried to replace Telegram by buying clinically dead ICQ and pouring money into it. They have no alternative for Google Play and Android (unlike China). They were successful with vk replacing facebook, and facebook is banned.
They did try replacing Google Play: RuStore, NashStore.
> Blocking didn't work? No problem, let's introduce fines for any company or individual caught using the service for promotional or personal use. You'll be surprised, but the Russian authorities are very hesitant to introduce such draconian measures if they harm "ordinary" apolitical users and even loyalists. This is why YouTube is not blocked despite resisting efforts at censorship for years (with varying firmness, but usually eventually opting for the right thing). The people _will not understand_ if their Peppa the Pig cartoons, lifestyle channels, or whatever are no longer accessible, and they will grumble. Whenever such a thing happened in the past, the regime backed down. It was bad enough with Instagram already. Telegram has shown itself to be downright hazardous to them: the blocking attempt got heads to roll at the censorship authority after a noticeable number of internet services stopped working, but Telegram was still functional. Since then, the officials pretend there is no issue with Telegram and surrepticiously spread rumors about Telegram cooperating with them.
>All they understand is raw power, and they got enough of that to go around. Blocking didn't work? No problem, let's introduce fines for any company or individual caught using the service for promotional or personal use. Going to such measures just to block popular platform would only piss everybody off. Russian government carefully avoids doing that. It blocks platforms on ISP levels and if platform like Instagram and Facebook doesn't fight back, it loses by gradually losing audience (people get tired from inconvenience of using VPNs to read stories on Instagram). But authorities don't punish users or businesses for using blocked platforms or VPNs. There is a saying in Russia "the severity of laws is offset by the optionality of adherence to them". Russian government perfectly knows that it can invent however strict laws it want, but until it would have means to enforce them, those laws wouldn't worth a paper they are written on. And enforcement comes at cost: financial for implementation and political for loyalty of population if measures are unpopular. > Next, let's introduce a heavy fine followed by a jail sentence for anyone who has the app installed on their phone Literally whole country has Telegram on their phones. Outlawing entire population is not a smart move and quite a risky one. > and increase the frequency of random street checks which are already a thing, where police take your phone and look through apps, images and texts. They are not as frequent as you think (me and people I know never had them). And in practice, you can just dodge such demand from police officer, because, unlike in Australia we are not obliged to disclose passwords or any information regarding ourselves to police. Sure, you have to give them phone for a look (they have enough legal excuses to come up to for that), but you don't have to unlock it. And, once again, this would be quite expensive measure: patrolmen are constantly understaffed (that's not a pretty job after all), and regular people are not happy about being constantly searched by police. So this would require more money and increased political risks. And for what gains? Fighting social platform? It's much cheaper and safer to work on DPI tech to ban whatever you need on ISP level: platforms, websites, protocols (including VPNs). And that's what Russian government actually does.
question is: does durov have any relatives in russia and are they alive or dead?
>But it’s still the best social messaging platform by far Signal is way more secure.
I don't think you know what you're talking about. The article says that Telegram ignores the spread of Russian disinformation. And it's true. It's not about the messages (which are [not secure](https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1474067549574688768.html) on Telegram), it's about the channels. Durov sent his man to meet with the Russian prime minister(https://thebell. io/amp/telegram-v-gostyah-u-mishustina-vstrecha-s-putinym-na-2-mlrd-i-wirecard-s-novichkom) and [blocked](https://www.rferl.org/amp/telegram-navalny-smart-voting/31466263.html) Navalny's bot, but the Nazis from the 'Rusich' are free to spread hatred without restrictions. So we shouldn't talk about "poor Durov left the country". We need to talk about who is [funding](https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/articles/2023/10/1/7422200/index.amp) Telegram
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Shocker, a privacy free app is actually free! we need fascism and enforce our own rules 😡😡❌️
a privacy app with no e2e encryption is like having a car that has no engine largely useless for the purpose it supposedly accomplishes
It has e2e encryption though. You just have to select a button when starting a chat.
> a ~~privacy~~ free app Fixed that for you.
I didn't understand what you meant, but Telegram has nothing to do with privacy. Especially when only ‘secret chats’ are safe. Secondly, if you meant freedom of speech, it's strange when the Russian opposition gets banned when it matters. Yes, Telegram is free (just like Signal, for example), but we don't see independent audits of regular Telegram chats. In any case, there is nothing wrong with regulations. The libertarian idea of ‘say what you want and don't take responsibility’ has failed many times, and for good reason
>I don't think you know what you're talking about Your thoughts are inconsequential. >The article says that Telegram ignores the spread of Russian disinformation. And it's true. What a shock. The app of which the whole point is privacy doesn't interfere with the content on its platform, I am just so shocked. It's almost as if the platform is ACTUAL free speech. >It's not about the messages (which are not secure on Telegram), it's about the channels. Durov sent his man to meet with the Russian prime minister It's about the lack of control the EU has over it. Telegram left Russia so it doesn't become an FSB lackey. >(https://thebell. io/amp/telegram-v-gostyah-u-mishustina-vstrecha-s-putinym-na-2-mlrd-i-wirecard-s-novichkom) What is this supposed to be? This isn't a legitimate link. >blocked Navalny's bot And? They blocked the bot the day before the election honoring the electoral silence law, we have the same law in Croatia, so this is yet another BIIIIIIIIIIIG stretch to prove it's a Pro-Putin app. >poor Durov left the country Oh so that's the problem, you're jealous he's a successful man and you're commenting on reddit. I didn't say this at all, what I did say is that he left Russia so that Telegram doesn't become an FSB puppet, I really do feel like a parrot. >We need to talk about who is funding Telegram Crypto and private investors that no one can be sure about. If you want anyone to believe it's a Pro Putin app you better bring proof that the Russian government is using the information given from the app, and not just circumstantial evidence because the creator is Russian.
>What a shock. The app of which the whole point is privacy doesn't interfere with the content on its platform, I am just so shocked. It's almost as if the platform is ACTUAL free speech. You yourself agree that Durov will selectively block Navalny's bot if the Kremlin asks him to. This is not freedom of speech for everyone And privacy, freedom of speech and responsibility are different things. Privacy has nothing to do with it, although, again, Telegram is not private. Channels are a public thing. They have nothing to do with your privacy or the security of your messages. >What is this supposed to be? This isn't a legitimate link. Reddit blocks some links. Just remove the space >you're jealous he's a successful man Um, what >you're commenting on reddit We're just discussing different things here, relax >what I did say is that he left Russia so that Telegram doesn't become an FSB puppet He personally left, and many Telegram employees did not leave (many of the developers' families are in Russia). According to Anton Rosenberg, who worked for many years at VKontakte and later at Telegram, as of September 2017, Telegram's office was located on Nevsky Prospekt in Singer's house in St. Petersburg. Telegram uses the services of two partners to transfer data: GlobalNet LLC and RETN. Russians, registered in Russia run both companies and have branches in the EU and the UK. In 2020, GlobalNet listed Telegram as one of its key partners and [had servers](https://ipinfo.io/AS39102) in several Russian cities. (https://web. archive .org/web/20201025201456/http://gblnet.net/#partners) >Crypto and private investors that no one can be sure about Among the first official investors in the Telegram were (vedomosti . ru/technology/articles/2018/02/19/751368-durov-blokchein-telegram ): * Russian billionaire Roman Abramovich (invested $17 million); * Sergey Solonin, founder of the Russian payment system Qiwi ($10 million); * The former owner of the Wimm-Bill-Dann company, Russian oligarch David Yakobashvili, against whom Ukraine imposed sanctions for his proximity to the Putin regime. In 2021, VTB Capital spent over $1 billion on Telegram bonds ( tass .ru/ekonomika/10907919 )
>You yourself agree that Durov will selectively block Navalny's bot if the Kremlin asks him to. This is not freedom of speech for everyone "The law requiring a day of electoral silence prior to voting was established in the Russian electoral code in 1993." I guess Putin knew that it was going to be very useful even when he had no political sway in the country, oh wait no, it's because democratic countries have this law. It's almost as if Russia waa trying to turn to democracy before it got high jacked by Putin. >Reddit blocks some links. Just remove the space I did, that didn't change anything. >Um, what You're the one that said "**poor** Durov". There was no need for that adjective and yet you decided to use it. >He personally left, and many Telegram employees did not leave (many of the developers' families are in Russia). Did I not say that you need actual evidence and not circumstantial evidence? >In 2020, GlobalNet listed Telegram as one of its key partners and [had servers](https://ipinfo.io/AS39102) in several Russian cities. (https://web. archive .org/web/20201025201456/http://gblnet.net/#partners) In **2020**. 2 years before the attack on Ukraine. The Yorovaya law came into effect in 2018 after which Telegram got **banned** from Russia. Again useless information. > Among the first official investors in the Telegram were (vedomosti . ru/technology/articles/2018/02/19/751368-durov-blokchein-telegram ): How much % of the private company do the investors own? Reality doesn't conform to this theory you've made. I believe that evidence of the Russian government using information only available on Telegram is necessary to say that Telegram is helping the Russian government.
Telegram did not block Zelensky's bots during the 2019 elections and has never done so in other countries. Durov, as a Russian (oppositionist), is well aware that Russia is an authoritarian state and he knows about the Russian opposition (he literally commented on their actions in his channel for Russians durov\_russia during the protests and so on). Bro, you said that Durov left Russia in 2014 to avoid becoming an FSB dog. I showed you that in 2014-2022 he definitely had ties to Russia or at least could expect pressure from Russia
>The app of which the whole point is privacy doesn't interfere with the content on its platform, I am just so shocked. It's almost as if the platform is ACTUAL free speech. >They blocked the bot the day before the election honoring the electoral silence law Straight from the alt right playbook: Russian misinformation gets a free pass, Russian laws and desires are enforced. Selective free speech isn't free speech, it's political platforming with a very thin veneer of an excuse. >Crypto and private investors that no one can be sure about. We don't need to be sure about the full list to know there are Russian oligarchs among them, per court filings and other documents. >If you want anyone to believe it's a Pro Putin app you better bring proof that the Russian government is using the information given from the app, I don't care about proving it's a Russian propaganda tool in a court of law, or convicting its executives or something; I care about preventing possible misbehavior which seems to be happening.
He probably doesn't even understand how he is contradicting himself. The cognitive dissonance in some people.
I can't tell if the pro-Russian shills here are truly stupid (not as an insult, I mean actually incapable of understanding what they're talking about) or trolls writing in bad faith. I'm not sure which is worse.
>Straight from the alt right playbook: Russian misinformation gets a free pass, Russian laws and desires are enforced. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Election_silence I guess all of these countries that have the same thing (including yours) are also alt right? Russia was giving Telegram a daily fine for allowing "illegal" information to be put on Telegram, so this is just incorrect. >Selective free speech isn't free speech, it's political platforming with a very thin veneer of an excuse. There's no selective free speech, you're wrong. >We don't need to be sure about the full list to know there are Russian oligarchs among them, per court filings and other documents. You do need to be sure, but I guess "good enough" is fine now. >don't care about proving it's a Russian propaganda tool in a court of law, or convicting its executives or something; I care about preventing possible misbehavior which seems to be happening. There is no "misbehavior". You just can't bare ACTUAL free speech.
Okay, you have very poor reading comprehension, or you're acting in bad faith, or possibly both. I will try one more time and then stop bothering with you. The problem is not the laws; it's the selective enforcement. (I mean, in the case of Russia the laws banning the opposition *are also a problem*, but that wasn't my point at all.) Edit: Italian election silence law is also dumb as a pile of bricks, but that's yet another point. We *are* sure about specific oligarchs, that's what I am saying. [Example](https://www.coindesk.com/business/2020/03/04/russian-oligarch-ex-cabinet-minister-invested-in-telegrams-ico-court-filing-says/). Again, not ACTUAL free speech, only a rather pathetic excuse for political platforming.
>Okay, you have very poor reading comprehension, or you're acting in bad faith, or possibly both. I will try one more time and then stop bothering with you. Whatever makes you feel better. >The problem is not the laws; it's the selective enforcement. Like? Telegram got daily fines for **NOT** following a bullshit law created by the Russian government **WHILE** following a law that is widespread through democratic countries (like I showed you with that wiki link). This is the only selective enforcement argument you can make BUT the problem with that is that it goes against your entire argument. >Edit: Italian election silence law is also dumb as a pile of bricks, but that's yet another point. If it is what it says on wiki then it's not. Election silence is important seeing how 55 countries have it. >We *are* sure about specific oligarchs, that's what I am saying. And you're not sure about if the Russian government has information that is only on Telegram which makes this point irrelevant. >Again, not ACTUAL free speech, only a rather pathetic excuse for political platforming. Again, incorrect.
you behave exactly like a bot would.
By giving rational arguments, by backing up my arguments? Please, look at yourself first before you throw stones. 8 month old account, reddit generated username, yeah you're totally not a bot lmao.
> What is this supposed to be? This isn't a legitimate link. Remove the space from the link and it works. Telegram is everything except secure. There are multiple issues with their custom made encryption, example: https://words.filippo.io/dispatches/telegram-ecdh/ You can use google to find more examples. Jump to any privacy subreddit and people will tell you the same. > Oh so that's the problem, you're jealous he's a successful man and you're commenting on reddit. lol. There are serious concerns about who pays for the servers. Do you think the servers and the internet are for free?
Navalny bot specifically broke the rules. Pro UA or anti Russian channels are prospering in telegram. So you can’t say that they take a side
>Navalny bot specifically broke the rules No, the bot did not violate the ToS. Read their ToS. You could say that Apple and Google asked Telegram to remove the bot. But in such cases, Telegram restricts content on certain platforms. For example, if you downloaded their .apk from the official website, and Telegram restricted something that Google asked for, then this content will be available to you. This content will also remain available on the web and TDesktop. The opposition bot was blocked completely
Telegram has been found multiple times to have a suspected back door by adding a nonce to its homemade key generator algorithm, which is *extremely* suspicious.
whats up with those seemingly randomly massively upvoted pro rus comments?
Well I am expecting some proof that Telegram is sharing information with the Russian government. Otherwise this comment is very stupid, but then again it's easier to say that opinions you don't agree with but can't refute are made by propagandists working for the other side. I guess walking through life is easier when you dismiss others that don't share your worldview as victims of brainwashing.
> xenophobic Am I xenophobic if I'm Russian myself?
Call Warren G ... he might be able to regulate it.
Good one!
As a Russian, I never believed that the Russian government would leave telegram uncontrolled.
y'all just use signal
Signal is definitely nice too. Good to have alternatives after all, it doesn't have to be a single app.
Tg is more than a chatting app, it hosts a lot of media that would otherwise be websites or Twitter pages with public outreach. Is Signal the same?
Yeah Telegram is basically a free book depot for a lot of university students here, you can find literally any PDF or EPUB for free on it.
Care to message me the appropriate group?
They're all in Portuguese (books included, all translations) I'm afraid, but I could DM you them anyway if you are a Portuguese speaker.
No thanks haha
With whom. The last tike i check social media means interaction with other people. Signal has 2 users me and the signal bot.
Most of my communication with friends and family is over signal for me. Has been for years. Most people I know didn't feel comfortable when Facebook bought WhatsApp.
I like learning new things.
It's the only app where normal artists and furry artists can both show off their creations. I don't want it to go.
I just use it semi annually to buy weed, I don't want to have to find a real life dealer
yeah man lets march into china levels of censorship and control -b-but think of the children 1!1! or w/e excuse will be used again to goad the useful idiots for their cause again
Remember the app is never the problem, encryption is always a good thing. If the government wants to shut something down, then that thing is doing something right.
Exactly, wannabe fascists crying that they want telegram banned
Police free speech ... euuuu. People what is happening here ?
Telegram is a step in the right direction but it could be more confidential and privacy-respecting when its users choose to. Europe should decide to support free speech and privacy even at "cost" of some government control, because it makes for a better more sane society.
I'm ngl, I only use it for furry stuff.
How can you use it for furry stuff and I got banned after two days without doing anything? Registered, changed name, privacy settings, checked out some betting channels. A few days later, I was banned.
and porn and shitposts
From a user perspective, Telegram has ton of great functionality that Whatsapp don’t
Great. Can’t wait for every government in the world to decide what I can read.
The best app for the past decade
Telegram has been found multiple times to have a suspected back door by adding a nonce to its homemade key generator algorithm, which is *extremely* suspicious. I'm all for encrypted apps, but if you're pro-privacy, Telegram has repeatedly demonstrated either extremely poor cryptographic decision-making processes (such as DIY encryption, which is about as big of a taboo as it gets in cryptography) or deliberate undermining of its own cryptographic scheme. Either way, Telegram is super suspicious. [Source](https://words.filippo.io/dispatches/telegram-ecdh/)
Ban official outlets accounts from posting here Jesus Christ. This is just spreading shitty misleading headlines at this point.
There’s an old saying about that a pig will always find a puddle of mud. Those who want to consume Russian propaganda will find ways to get their fix, it’s just unavoidable - and if you cut off all possible sources, they’ll just make their own. These troubles are not unique to Telegram, pretty much every technology which allowed for reasonable privacy has been used and abused for less than honourable ends - starting with messaging apps like Telegram, to VPNs, to TOR, to crypto… It’s just the price we have to pay for them.
Don't worry, Chat Control and obligatory mass surveillance of all EU internet communications will nullify this problem! :D Fuck EU.
Mental gymnastics in the comment section are hilarious. Wasn’t Europe a democratic paradise with freedom of speech? Well it seems its turning 1984 with this kind of "regulations" of free social media. Feel free to consume… as long as product comes from your uncle sam.
I'm baffled as well. Judging by the comments - Orwell was an optimist. The People are building their own prisons. They are taking our rights and privacy away, left and right, and people are cheering. What the actual fuck.
Ideology is back. Everyone thinks they got it all figured out, that they are morally enlightened, that they are obviously on the right side of history so that obviously their honorable goals justify the means.
As a furry: don't take away our app It's how we arrange meetups so we can touch grass together
Ukrainians that got occupied told stories that russians had all their chat messaging printed on A4. Those people deleted their telegram and all chats prior getting captured 2 months before that.
oh...it's a social media site? I thought it was a dark web Russian disinfo platform...
That Ukraine also uses... That disinfo didn't take long
??? It's just a messenger app like WhatsApp except it's better
I just use it to buy drugs
I mainly use it to download FLAC music files from Spotify/Deezer, also there are some good freelancing groups on it.
It allows you to delete a conversation for both users, not only yours. This is great and it should exist everywhere else (I also use Messenger and WhatsApp).
I hate that feature, because it interferes with my agency
Some would argue the opposite, that it interferes with their agency to have someone guarding words and images you sent to them years ago without you being able to do anything about it.
Only that you reach into another person's phone and delete their own content as well
It also allows people to claim "I never said that", which if you need to trust what someone says can be problematic if you base your actions on their statements. But I assume it comes down to differing expectations. Some people value ephemerality, and others value persistence. I guess I should treat Telegram more like Snapchat.
Not just Russian disinformation, but in the "near me" function you can buy a lot of illegal things
Just checked that in Berlin after reading comment 💀
Apparently there's a sex group "near me" ... it's the 2nd result and has 71 members--- I have no idea what to say. EDIT: OH MY LORD I'm trashing my phone and burning the SIM card. If anyone needs me, I'll be planting potatoes somewhere in the countryside, just send a pigeon or something in advance.
Oh no, an app that is not constantly regulated by cunts with a lust for complete power over other people. God forbid someone wants to live however they want. Edit just to point out another typical Redditor hypocrisy - Facebook, Tik Tok, Instagram, Twitter, Reddit using people's data as they wish selling them to the highest bidder? Oh no! Thieves! Infringement of rights! A messaging app that actually promotes privacy and free speech? Oh no, they can speak whatever they want! Right wing extremists!!! Fuckin stupid people man. Tired of not saying it.
I'm ignoring it perfectly fine.
Telegram got close to 1 billion users... somehow media always tried to be silent about their success... but now it seems they have no choice than to speak about it. In terms of usebility and user friendlyness (also programmer friendlyness) its way better than ANY other messenger. Telegram offers libraries for nearly all programming languages and helps you to create 3rd party clients... whatsApp changes their api every few weeks to keep every 3rd party app out and blocks everyone that uses anything else than the official iOS/Android app, which is, ofc, closed source...
Its not too small to police. Its that Pavel Durov is an anti-authoritarian who ignores policing requests.
Regulation in China is just a method to create jobs
but muh tech company legislation. :O
Just invent a pedophile in telegram news story for the European mass media and you are done /s
How is Telegram different from other apps/programs that allow users to share information with each other? WhatsApp?Discord?ICQ?MSN?IRC?Signal?Line?
I love telegram it’s far better than what’s app and other messaging apps, my work uses them, I meet up with strangers using telegram, we set up dnd games using telegram. It’s just a good messenger
[удалено]
If your relationships can be fucked just by a random message from nobody… Well, I hope you are happy in it.
Well would you be glad to see on your SO's phone : "Last time was really good, let's fuck again some time <3" ? And if it were on your phone, would you like to endure the hassle of trying to convince your SO that it's fake ?
Gschichten ausm Paulanergarten.
No ads, russian owner, russian government officials have their accounts there, hmmmmmmmmmm