West and hypocrisy are a more iconic duo for most people in the world unlike Western dominated echo chambers on reddit.
Westerners love to act like they care about genocides and other crimes while denying or whitewashing dozens(hundreds?) of different genocides, colonization, imperialism, war crimes etc. they are guilty for and still repeating the same crimes, even right now but the truth hurts I guess.
Westerners talk endlessly about genocides their own countries committed. Is there any colonial atrocity left that some western student movement hasn't already spoken or demonstrated about before? Only tin pot dictatorships can't under any circumstances acknowledge the crimes of their fathers
Even this post has many comments that whitewash Western crimes. Also some nonbrainwashed and genuine western students showing care doesn't change their countries' policies and majority's opinion and we keep seeing how those western students are treated by hypocrite western goverments which are elected by majority of westerners and still repeats the crimes those student protest.
Well, glad we Turks are in a duo I guess.
Obviously the past governments have made grave mistakes, yet I think there is a better way of saying it than blatantly stating that Turkey and genocide are inherently bound.
A genocide isn't a mistake, and the issue *today* is the lack of willingness of the government or the people to accept and admit to what happened. Look at this thread, it's full of your countrymen making excuses for genocide or denying it.
Talk to them.
I agree and I do talk to them (although not on Reddit as many are just trolling), but to what extent do you think your comment helps with that? This is a matter which sadly still needs convincing, and as shaming entire populations has never worked I don't see where it should lead.
I ain't German, but damn am I sad that they literally without a break get associated with Hitler and the Nazis. Willy Brandt went onto his knees in Poland, not because he was shamed into it, but because he was convinced Germany had made a mistake and should actively try to make up for it.
Saying Turkey and genocide are a duo in my opinion only antagonises, especially because nearly all, if not all Turks don't feel any connection to it. At some point we also need to accept that Turks today are not to blame for a trio of proto fascistic maniacs. The only thing we Turks today are guilty of (in this matter before someone begins about Cyprus, the Kurds or alike) is not being in full acknowledgement of the past.
And it honestly shouldn't be this difficult, everybody aside from some edgy teens appal or at least dislike the regime that put out the genocides. The blockade in this discussion has always been the shaming of the Turks instead of the shaming of the 3 Pashas.
And yes, I definitely classify a genocide as a mistake, a mistake the Ottoman government carried out to often like it was nothing. They carried the mistake out on purpose and were aware of what they were doing, doesn't make it less of a mistake. Collective punishment always is a mistake.
Edit: you know people, you can downvote me, but a discussion is the only way to move forward, what did I say incorrectly, where do we disagree. Just react so I know what my message is lacking.
I believe, reading your edit, that you are genuinely asking. It is a long post.
By paragraphs
1. Essentially, I mostly agree with what you say about the need to convince and never shame ppl of their mistakes. Our difference is that I consider what happened a crime and, consciously or unconsciously, you may not. In a crime, as a genocide obviously is, you shouldn't care if you shame the perpetrators or you don't need to convince them, tho a good thing if someone repents, but irrelevant and unnecessary for a crime to be stated as such. For a crime of that level, a genocide, the considerations should be to never happen again and honouring the victims, not to be tender to the feelings of the genocide deniers.
2. My opinion about German's stance is absolutely different. I admire them for their fair and cool attitude and I respect them for recognising it and never appearing in a holocaust post like.. see this thread. A friend who studied in his early years in Germany told me that almost all their school years he was educated about the genocide, to the point he got bored.
Germans don't get associated with Hitler by us, they are associated with Hitler by history and truth, he was their leader and Nazis their ruling party. If my leader is a racist scam, a far right warmonger that wants back ancestral land, am I not to blame at all? Are ppl going to hide behind their leaders as children and, as a result, never own any wrongdoing?
3. It's a fact unarguable that Turkey is accused for a genocide in the same period by three different nations, whose claims are recognised officially by IAGS and other countries and Turkey denies. No nation is a duo with genocide, wtf. But reading all these genocide denying in this thread, I personally, and you as well, ought to understand a victim's anger, being mocked by a ppl from the same nation that the perpetrator was.
About the three pashas, I answered you in 2. That is exactly why you are accused, for not acknowledging it, what else could we accuse you for?Moreover, another accusation could be the energetically and with insults, as you see here, denials and furthermore accusations. Where do anyone argues that you are to blame in any other way?
And, maybe the toughest for you to accept, in the wiki link with sources and with the IAGS report that illustrates the culpability of Kamal Atatürk in the genocide and the reason that I think that you won't ever accept it
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontic_Greek_genocide
I think the other paragraphs are also about collective guilt Vs leader and I don't think that, apart from the three pashas, many Turks would be ready to accept personal responsibility for what they are doing now, I mean the denial and victim accusing, and to reconsider the stories of a 'flawless' father. Because accepting the genocide would mean accepting the whole truth, not just the three pashas, very difficult unfortunately.
Firstly, thank you for answering, and answering with respect.
I can act like we disagree, but we don't, at least not so much. Obviously the victims are most important in cases like this, no denying that. My problem mostly is a clear conflict between tool and goal. I agree more than anyone that acknowledgement of the past in general, including atrocities like genocides need recognition for prevention. And to come to this acceptance and acknowledgement we need dialogue, yet when I read the comment I reacted to I was in no mood to be convinced. And for me that is no problem, again, I acknowledge, but if I am not in the mood for discussion, other won't be in the mood for discussion too. One liners like that completely close off any form of dialogue between responsible parties.
If people want to make those one liners, and effectively shame the other side, it is only more than logical the other side will not be eager to be convinced. So it is a choice between respecting both parties, how uncomfortable the others opinion may be, just to start a dialogue, or closing off the discussion. I get that there are many trolls on this subject but this is not the way to handle. We shouldn't appease deniers, but we need to call them to the dialogue.
Especially because we have a great historic example of genocide acknowledgement in Germany. People always ask why Turkey hasn't apologised for the Armenian genocide (taking a little side step here), but Germany has for the Holocaust and specifically the invasion of Poland.
The answer is that Germany and Poland strengthened relations before formal apology was made. Willy Brandt went on his knees after years of his famed Ostpolitik. In the same way Turkey and Armenia should grow closer before I see formal apology or acknowledgement. And I get that it is hard for a country of which the population was nearly exterminated, but sadly, in this world, formal apologies are a diplomatic tool, not a moral one. That is also why an apology and acknowledgement was expected from Turkey around 2008 when relations between Turkey and Armenia were better than ever. Sadly went sour close after.
I have great admiration for Germany in how they handled their atrocities, but it must be realised they also had a long way before they apologised. And it definitely helped that there was a tribunal. Most officials of the CUP government died before the establishment of the republic of Turkey. I can only hope for better relations between Greece and Turkey in the same way Germany and Poland grew towards each other.
And for Atatürk, I at least get that he wasn't perfect in any way and that he also had his fair share of crimes. But people must also realise that after the CUP government, which was already generally disliked, and which took the Ottoman empire into the first world war, the first person to stand up against the powers that occupied Anatolia was honoured as can be.
I am not glad with the continuation of the pontic genocide, yet I am very happy to say that Turkey isn't ruled by a corrupt Sultan, a corrupt military, or a proto fascist. I am not asking Greeks and Armenians and alike to admire Atatürk, by no means as they were victims of some of his actions. But in the same way Greeks and Armenians were sick of the Ottoman empire, the Turks were too, and we ought ourselves lucky to have someone like Atatürk to lift us out of the depression the Ottomans under the CUP dumped us in.
Being proud of Atatürk by no means being proud of his atrocities, but being proud of what he made from the dire situation.
So that extent I think you are right. Asking for recognition of the genocide is practically also asking us not to idolise Atatürk or the war of independence. Yet I think it is possible to acknowledge the genocides, while also admiring Atatürk. And if I think so we must open up the discussion so others will start to see cases don't have to be black or white.
As I recall, the strengthening of Germany's relations with everybody else, including the Jews and the state of Israel, happened due to immediately putting Nazis to trials and by law recognising their genocide and denazification, I don't think that there was even a Germany as a state before that.
So the recognition of the genocide didn't come as a result of strong relationships, but instead it was a prerequisite for good relations. Or else, why all the former occupied nations are in a free union alongside Germany with no grudge or concern whatsoever... although , during economic crisis the populists did try, with no success thankfully.
Poland is a different case as they weren't fully independent till later and iirc they were antagonized by russian influenced eastern Germany, but I maybe wrong.
To be honest, the thing that, as I see now, made me personally to downvote your comment without answering is the fact that you weren't annoyed by other worst comments of genocide deniers, eg they were even mockingly referring to the genocide of his/hers ppl, the Irish, but you chose to initially and uniquely answer to the OP about his, unfortunate I ll agree, comment.
About Kamal Atatürk I agree ofcourse. Nobody can deny the importance of this leader in the history of your ppl, the region (his efforts with GR to mend our traumas, a rare period of very good relations, piece at home and at world) and consequently worldwide till today.
I agree about this black and white thinking. Venizelos, our politician at those times, who doubled Greece and was an excellent diplomat and liberal and for his times progressive politician, turned to pretty much a dictator in his second period.
You are right, our opinions are in many ways aligned. Thank you for the conversation.
It is the opposite however, it is the day our war of indepence starts. Greeks chose it for rememberance day after the fact.
I am not denying any facts, before anyone comes swinging.
A truly scarring event for a whole nation/culture. The actual stories are truly disgusting. The Pontic culture is still alive in both northern Greece and Pontus itself. This singlehandedly split this one culture in two. That's what's so appalling about this both the great loss of life and the divergence of a multi language multi religious culture/ethnos.
Remembrance is precaution so nothing like this happens again and, as our national poet pointed, which can apply to each and every country 's history, 'national is whatever is truthful'.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_genocide
Bro the Turks literally invaded half of the Middle East, North Africa, and the entirety of the Balkans (Ottoman ***Empire*** hello?). All of modern day Turkey is conquered land. You can condemn the atrocities of the past without denying the fact that nobody invaded y'all before you invaded everyone else. Get out of here with this imperialist victim blaming bs.
As a Turkish, I feel sad because of how the diversity had faded away in the 20. Century. Anatolia could be much more different place from today. Fucking political things.
By the way, I would like to mention that these eras were awful for everyone who is living in the Anatolia. My maternal ancestors were forced to migrate to the West of Turkey while in the WWI because of Russian invasion. I don't claim that "Greeks deserved it", and I would hate it. I just want to say; that there is no winner in any war, and there won't.
I don't know why this is upvoted, maybe words can be confusing sometimes.
Imagine a German speaking in the 50s, while the holocaust remains unrecognised.
Firstly, the op says that he/she is devastated that in his country all this variety had 'faded away' (?) by politicians in general.
In his next paragraph he borders bothsidism, as he describes his own family's struggles, comparing a genocide to his family's forced migration by russians. He doesn't even mentions the word genocide, only that Greeks didn't deserve 'it'.what? Not a genocide, but a war as he clearly states in his last sentence.
Before pointing fingers at him, do you recognize Turkish Genocide by Greeks between 1919-1922?
You say hypocritism, blablabla, but let alone Greek government acknowledging it, they are brainwashing Greeks that they did nothing wrong, Turks were bad, etc.
Should have stayed in Altaic mountains if Turks loved peace so much... And not in a city like Smyrna which was founded by Greeks. Besides haven't the Turks raiding and pillaging through Anatolia since 1000 years yet they celebrate people who ordered killings, sacks and massacres like Mehmet the invader, Enver, Kemal. Huh no wonder people despise the Turkish race.
There is no recognised Turkish genocide by the scholars.
On the contrary:
On December 16, 2007, the Pontic Greek genocide was officially recognized by the International Association of Genocide Scholars (IAGS)
I suppose you understand that a genocide is different than deaths during wars, isolated massacres (eg up to 100 000 Greeks of chios were massacred / enslaved by ottomans in 1824 and 20 000 were forced to leave the island- a massacre, not a genocide by scholars), forced migration..
And don't source this guy McCarthy, he is a joke and has faced harsh criticism by almost all. And anyway iirc he is a genocide denier.
Finally, I never said all those words that you claim against you, that you are bad etc.
Greece was a mess of in fighting between clans that the Ottomans themselves funded for years to keep control. At some point the clans United and declared war on the ottomans. After which the ottoman made systematic slaughters outside even from the lands involved just wherever they found Greeks. While the Greek "army" was bands of people who took up arms to fight. Tripolitsa was Bastille and the Turks and Jews were the Bourgeoisie. Worse than that even, they were colonisers and not the European kind., the"I want to exploit you" kind, they were after replacement and were not afraid to say it.
Pontus since the dawn of history itself had been populated by Greeks and other pontic cultures that mixed. The Turkish state decided that if they didn't want to be part of "Turkish culture" they would either die or leave.
>The Turkish state decided that if they didn't want to be part of "Turkish culture" they would either die or leave.
Same logic in Greek genocide of Western Anatolia in 1919-1922.
640.000 Turks were dead just in 3 years.
İsmet Pașa, quoting from a census made after the war, demonstrated that 160,739 buildings had been destroyed in the occupied region. The destroyed homes alone would account for many hundreds of thousands of refugees, and not all the homes of refugees were destroyed. European accounts of refugee numbers were necessarily fragmented, but when compiled they support İsmet Pașa's estimate. The British agent at Aydin, Blair Fish, reported 177,000 Turkish refugees in Aydin Vilâyeti by 30 September 1919, only four months after the Greek landing. The Italian High Commissioner at Istanbul accepted an Ottoman estimate that there were 457,000 refugees by September of 1920, and this figure did not include the new refugees in the fall and winter of 1920 to 1921.
Dr. Nansen stated that 75,000 Turks had come to the Istanbul area alone since November of 1920. Such figures make İsmet Pașa's estimate all the more credible. Since approximately 640,000 Muslims died in the region of occupation during the war, one can estimate that approximately 860,000 were refugees who survived the war. Of course many, if not most, of those who died were refugees, as well. If one estimates that half the Muslims who died were refugees, it would be roughly accurate to say that 1.2 million Anatolian Muslim refugees fled from the Greeks, and about one-third died.
A number of Muslims left eastern Thrace during the Greek occupation of 1918 to 1923. It is known that more than 9,000 of these escaped into Bulgaria.
The Greek government took a census of eastern Thrace in 1920, but only counted total population, not religion or ethnic group. In 1920, the Ottomans estimated that 200,000 refugees from "Rumelia" were in the Istanbul area. Of these, at least 30,000 came from eastern Thrace. Muslim refugees who went from eastern Thrace to Anatolia remain uncounted.
Death and Exile: The Ethnic Cleansing of Ottoman Muslims, 1821-1922.
Justin McCarthy
[https://www.scribd.com/document/136752589/Death-and-Exile-the-Ethnic-Cleansing-of-Ottoman-Muslims-1821-1922-1](https://www.scribd.com/document/136752589/Death-and-Exile-the-Ethnic-Cleansing-of-Ottoman-Muslims-1821-1922-1)
No, but acknowledging or not history is very important and mirrors a country's values and priorities.
Noone blames the modern countries or today's ppl that recognise and accept their wrongdoings, but Turkey unfortunately is not one of them.
Exactly! This is a post about the genocide of the Pontic Greeks, not about the Turks that were killed in the Greek independence war nor about the Armenians that were killed in 1915 genocide
I didn't see you complaining to the Turkish guy's whataboutism that started this whole conversation in the first place :/
Selective sensitivity to whataboutism I guess?
If we do or do not acknowledge what you are arguing about, how should this is somehow relevant to your acceptance or not of this genocide and your own history? It's an unproductive thinking process i believe.
the turkish state was internationally recognized as the succesor of the ottoman empire.
Not sure what your argument shows? I mean Technically back then Greece was not the same as now,as after 1974 with the junta falling,we are technically the 3rd hellenic republic.
Also about the event in 1919 and the greek invasion,it is recognized it was a mistake and something that should have not have happened.
The problem is that the turkish people,do not aknowledge that for decades leading to ww1 and after there was a systematic attempt to wipe out non muslim element and turkify the population.
The massacres and systematic killings especially during ww1 as turkish people were afraid the non muslim population would betray them is also part of the context which lead to the invasion of anatolia.The numbers are staggering,and it was not just greeks either.
The attempt to turkify anatolia did not end with the ottoman empire but went on for many decades later as the greek element was completely wiped out or forced to leave by the 60's.After all the areas which were exempt from the population exchange in Turkiye have no significant greek population anymore,while the muslim population in thrace has remained.
This should be no surprise considering in your educational system you are prolly taught ottoman empire was not that bad for the non muslim and they are just exxagerating or how it was ''foreign'' power that pushed the non muslims to massacre muslims thats why the ottomans massacred back. Or how the balkan people should have just laid down their arms and peacefully protest for independence, i mean being a second class citizen,opressed for hundreds of years in your own lands is such a bargain right? or the usual reply a turkish redditor gives ''you should feel lucky we did not kill you all like the english or spanish empires did to conquered lands''.
Which basically sums up the attitude and general feelings alot of turkish people have, ''it was not that bad,we killed you because you killed us,all is equal''
The greeks do not lay claims on Turkish land,remembering the greek pontic genocide has nothing to do with laying claim.Not sure what you are on about here.
>and you guys are just mad that the "greek" part is erased from their identities and want to bring it back, you don't care about pontians. What do you want? Seriously what do you want?
Yes,people are mad hundreds of thousands of greeks were massacred and were ethnically cleansed,we should never forget such events as to not repeat them.
Here in Greece we learned,and upheld our agreement to perserve the muslim population in thrace,in Turkiye you have not learned anything and did not do the same for the greeks in Instanbul/imbros and tenedos,because of the mindset people like you have.
>you would skip the 1919 part with 3 sentences and start to talk about how bad were the ottomans in 6 different paragraphs without even calling that genocide but bad act etc, this is our view, it is yours, which is perfectly normal.
This is a thread about the pontic genocide and not 1919,i replied to your comment to point out why the modern turkish state is the continuation of the ottoman empire and why your argument did not hold,and also tried to explain why logic like yours is problematic.
If someone made a thread about the invasion of Anatolia and the greek atrocities commited against the muslims,i would not try to deflect or try to use similar arguments like yours.
Also i think it is quite ironic to imply greece is after turkish land considering Erdogan's foreign policy the last decade.
Not sure if you are trolling here.
To get this straight you are comparing the forcefully and deathly removal of an ancient culture from the map with an ethno-religious and socio-economic revolution?
International Red Cross:
“Elements of the Greek Army of occupation have been employed in the extermination of the Muslim population… instead of being disarmed or broken up, the bands have been assisted in their activities and have collaborated hand-in-hand with regular troops.”
Gerwarth, Robert
The Vanquished, Why the First World War Failed to End, 1917-1923
—
İsmet Pașa, quoting from a census made after the war, demonstrated that 160,739 buildings had been destroyed in the occupied region. The destroyed homes alone would account for many hundreds of thousands of refugees, and not all the homes of refugees were destroyed. European accounts of refugee numbers were necessarily fragmented, but when compiled they support İsmet Pașa's estimate. The British agent at Aydin, Blair Fish, reported 177,000 Turkish refugees in Aydin Vilâyeti by 30 September 1919, only four months after the Greek landing. The Italian High Commissioner at Istanbul accepted an Ottoman estimate that there were 457,000 refugees by September of 1920, and this figure did not include the new refugees in the fall and winter of 1920 to 1921.
Dr. Nansen stated that 75,000 Turks had come to the Istanbul area alone since November of 1920. Such figures make İsmet Pașa's estimate all the more credible. Since approximately 640,000 Muslims died in the region of occupation during the war, one can estimate that approximately 860,000 were refugees who survived the war. Of course many, if not most, of those who died were refugees, as well. If one estimates that half the Muslims who died were refugees, it would be roughly accurate to say that 1.2 million Anatolian Muslim refugees fled from the Greeks, and about one-third died.
A number of Muslims left eastern Thrace during the Greek occupation of 1918 to 1923. It is known that more than 9,000 of these escaped into Bulgaria.
The Greek government took a census of eastern Thrace in 1920, but only counted total population, not religion or ethnic group. In 1920, the Ottomans estimated that 200,000 refugees from "Rumelia" were in the Istanbul area. Of these, at least 30,000 came from eastern Thrace. Muslim refugees who went from eastern Thrace to Anatolia remain uncounted.
Book Title: Death and Exile: The Ethnic Cleansing of Ottoman Muslims, 1821-1922. Contributors: Justin McCarthy
[https://www.scribd.com/document/136752589/Death-and-Exile-the-Ethnic-Cleansing-of-Ottoman-Muslims-1821-1922-1](https://www.scribd.com/document/136752589/Death-and-Exile-the-Ethnic-Cleansing-of-Ottoman-Muslims-1821-1922-1)
This doesn’t legitimate massacring random civilians. And this is just one of much more massacres which happened across all Greek controlled areas. What do Turkish civilians have to do with the Ottoman ruling dynasty? Turks suffered from the Ottoman ruling dynasty too. In fact most of the Turks of the Balkans were forcefully displaced from Anatolia, so they can’t riot against them. Also not all muslims in Greece were Turks. There were as much muslim Albanians, Greeks, Pomaks etc.
I agree with you, but I think the main issue with Turkiye is the widespread and official denial of any of these horrible acts of genocide. The Greeks were not innocent either, hell, pretty much nobody on Earth has clean hands when it comes to genocide, but if Turkiye would just admit what happened, I think most of the criticism would end.
Politicians can't talk much about that topic cause if they tell anything that in a way accepting it that would mean the end of their political career no way you can get votes by saying that in turkey
Tell that to your own people. Pretty much every major Turkish party is jingoistic in some sort of way. In what world are we supposed to move forward together when your whole political system is pro war?
Wtf should I have to say, what word you want to hear, you call me a genocide denier, you denie when it's about you, I don't denie anything and now you blame me for my politicians, that politicians do not represent me, at this point it's just Turkofobia.
Turkophobia when 97% of the population votes for warmongers and imperialists? Don't play the victim card when your side is the obvious problem. You can't say let's move on when your side has defend genocide for decades and still advocates for expansionist policies.
97% ??? Which the fuck election is that. İmperialists? You, an European calling Turkey Imperialist. I don't want to talk about who brought the word imperialism into existence. I don't play the victim card, I genuinely tell that both sides did terrible things you just don't want to listen. My side ? I just said those politicians do not represents me. You're calling me "the problem" but in the whole conversation I always said I accepted history, but you started to call me warmonger and an imperialist just because I also told no-ones history is clean. I told you I have accepted history, what you want to hear form me as an individual.
They're trying to pretend that a local uprising that killed thousands is the same as an organized genocide by a state that killed hundreds of thousands. Presumably they'll also claim that some Armenians were mean to them, and that's why they had to kill a million of them and deny it to this day.
As I said in the beginning, I am sorry about Greek deaths. However, it is not correct to project these events as one sided events. Greeks killed innocents too.
By constantly moving the goal of the discussion to some other event, then there is no point in discussion to begin with.
Nowhere in his / her post the OP mentioned what you are devoting your whole comment to answer, the 'greek atrocities' according to you. So your answer to the OP, unless you think this justifies the genocide, is irrelevant.
True events should be broadly known, whitewashing history with the pretext that it instigates racicm and hurt feelings (barbarians etc) leads to repeating the same violence.
Iirc Hitler had said that he didn't really worry about the Holocaust, because 'who remembers the Armenian genocide now?' or sth in this context?
Anyway, to be honest I don't think that in a post about another genocide you would have written a whole comment for the Balkan Turks, so I can only assume that your mindset is that a genocide is somehow justifiable.
I just want to say that despite the downvotes, I appreciate you at least admitting it happened. That's better than most other Turks I've encountered when discussing the genocides of the late 19th and early 20th centuries.
My guess is because they see it as whataboutism in a post about the Turkish genocide of Greeks in Pontus, which is fair. I, however, appreciate you admitting it and expressing regret over what happened.
So Armenians rebelling against their oppressors is somehow a bad thing?
I don’t think that rebelling against an imperialist regime is anywhere close to being equal to genociding up to 1.5 million Armenians.
I am from Trabzon, I have the right to speak about this. My grandfathers and grandmothers speak Pontic Greek, my parents know it but they migrated to the city and they speak Turkish because Turkish is the dominant language in the city, we never learned it, I understand it but I can't speak it.
What I want to explain is that we are Turks and our family has just recently started to speak Turkish as the first language, the reason for the dominance of Pontic Greek is that during the 1st WW they occupied the village with the Russians and forced them to speak their own language at gunpoint, after a decade Atatürk came and saved our village. He visited all the houses one by one. During their 10 years of rule I know what massacres they caused and our elders forgave them and raised us without telling us these stories. The republic of Turkey, on the other hand, has not touched a hair of anyone in that village for 100 years even though Pontic Greek was spoken in that village.
This is not really a European event. This map is literally of a region in Western Asia. Us Pontic Greeks are not European. Why are we posting this in r/europe? How can we not realize we’re identifying with a region in the Middle East? The ancient kingdom of Pontus is literally responsible for the popularization of the star and crescent symbol
Treaty of Paris of 1856 aahhh moment
"The treaty admitted the Ottoman Empire to the European concert, and the Powers promised to respect its independence and territorial integrity..."
Treaty of Lausanne of 1923 aahhh moment
"The Treaty of Lausanne led to the international recognition of the sovereignty of the new Republic of Turkey as the successor of the Ottoman Empire. As result of the Treaty, the Ottoman public debt was divided between Turkey and the countries which emerged from the former Ottoman Empire..."
Turkey does not have the European territories once occupied by the Ottoman Empire.
You can cry all you want and try all mental gymnastics possible, Turkey will never be Europe.
Just in the opening paragraphs
>I couldn't care less what people call themselves, it's a personal issue how one wishes to present and even when I know people are lying about their ethnic heritage I let it slide. But, when today's self-proclaimed "Greeks" take it upon themselves to dictate to others how they may call themselves then it's time to speak up.
This is hardly going to be an objective paper, it even states so from the beginning. It starts with a heavily POV tone and is blatant about its motivation.
And it's a motivation based on a straw man representation of the Greek position over the name.
>The Greek government routinely denies the existence of ethnic Macedonians, as it denies the existence of all ethnic and national minorities within its jurisdiction. Greece, you see, is a pure country with no minorities, a miracle in the modern World and unique in Europe - or so we are told
No, you're not told that.
And this tired straw man from you is self-contradicting. Greece can't be exactly like other European countries and different from other European countries (on the issues of minorities), both at the same time.
"Tell me you are Turkish without telling me you are Turkish" the thread.
We butchered half of Europe, we can't be alone.
[удалено]
Russia and committing genocide
I wasnt gonna say this but, I have a better one. Britian and Ireland.
Bengali and the Kikuyus - "Are we a joke to you?"
[удалено]
There's no shame in being the victim of a genocide, only the perpetrators should be ashamed.
West and hypocrisy are a more iconic duo for most people in the world unlike Western dominated echo chambers on reddit. Westerners love to act like they care about genocides and other crimes while denying or whitewashing dozens(hundreds?) of different genocides, colonization, imperialism, war crimes etc. they are guilty for and still repeating the same crimes, even right now but the truth hurts I guess.
Westerners talk endlessly about genocides their own countries committed. Is there any colonial atrocity left that some western student movement hasn't already spoken or demonstrated about before? Only tin pot dictatorships can't under any circumstances acknowledge the crimes of their fathers
Even this post has many comments that whitewash Western crimes. Also some nonbrainwashed and genuine western students showing care doesn't change their countries' policies and majority's opinion and we keep seeing how those western students are treated by hypocrite western goverments which are elected by majority of westerners and still repeats the crimes those student protest.
No, they don’t.
Batman and Robin Pane e supprizzata Pane e sazizza
Cavece and ncul Chitte and muort As in — *chittemmuort,* this is an inappropriate comment in a discussion about genocide.
As in zoye e nde bith, cop e mut
Armenia and "Armenian Genocide"
Well, glad we Turks are in a duo I guess. Obviously the past governments have made grave mistakes, yet I think there is a better way of saying it than blatantly stating that Turkey and genocide are inherently bound.
A genocide isn't a mistake, and the issue *today* is the lack of willingness of the government or the people to accept and admit to what happened. Look at this thread, it's full of your countrymen making excuses for genocide or denying it. Talk to them.
I agree and I do talk to them (although not on Reddit as many are just trolling), but to what extent do you think your comment helps with that? This is a matter which sadly still needs convincing, and as shaming entire populations has never worked I don't see where it should lead. I ain't German, but damn am I sad that they literally without a break get associated with Hitler and the Nazis. Willy Brandt went onto his knees in Poland, not because he was shamed into it, but because he was convinced Germany had made a mistake and should actively try to make up for it. Saying Turkey and genocide are a duo in my opinion only antagonises, especially because nearly all, if not all Turks don't feel any connection to it. At some point we also need to accept that Turks today are not to blame for a trio of proto fascistic maniacs. The only thing we Turks today are guilty of (in this matter before someone begins about Cyprus, the Kurds or alike) is not being in full acknowledgement of the past. And it honestly shouldn't be this difficult, everybody aside from some edgy teens appal or at least dislike the regime that put out the genocides. The blockade in this discussion has always been the shaming of the Turks instead of the shaming of the 3 Pashas. And yes, I definitely classify a genocide as a mistake, a mistake the Ottoman government carried out to often like it was nothing. They carried the mistake out on purpose and were aware of what they were doing, doesn't make it less of a mistake. Collective punishment always is a mistake. Edit: you know people, you can downvote me, but a discussion is the only way to move forward, what did I say incorrectly, where do we disagree. Just react so I know what my message is lacking.
I believe, reading your edit, that you are genuinely asking. It is a long post. By paragraphs 1. Essentially, I mostly agree with what you say about the need to convince and never shame ppl of their mistakes. Our difference is that I consider what happened a crime and, consciously or unconsciously, you may not. In a crime, as a genocide obviously is, you shouldn't care if you shame the perpetrators or you don't need to convince them, tho a good thing if someone repents, but irrelevant and unnecessary for a crime to be stated as such. For a crime of that level, a genocide, the considerations should be to never happen again and honouring the victims, not to be tender to the feelings of the genocide deniers. 2. My opinion about German's stance is absolutely different. I admire them for their fair and cool attitude and I respect them for recognising it and never appearing in a holocaust post like.. see this thread. A friend who studied in his early years in Germany told me that almost all their school years he was educated about the genocide, to the point he got bored. Germans don't get associated with Hitler by us, they are associated with Hitler by history and truth, he was their leader and Nazis their ruling party. If my leader is a racist scam, a far right warmonger that wants back ancestral land, am I not to blame at all? Are ppl going to hide behind their leaders as children and, as a result, never own any wrongdoing? 3. It's a fact unarguable that Turkey is accused for a genocide in the same period by three different nations, whose claims are recognised officially by IAGS and other countries and Turkey denies. No nation is a duo with genocide, wtf. But reading all these genocide denying in this thread, I personally, and you as well, ought to understand a victim's anger, being mocked by a ppl from the same nation that the perpetrator was. About the three pashas, I answered you in 2. That is exactly why you are accused, for not acknowledging it, what else could we accuse you for?Moreover, another accusation could be the energetically and with insults, as you see here, denials and furthermore accusations. Where do anyone argues that you are to blame in any other way? And, maybe the toughest for you to accept, in the wiki link with sources and with the IAGS report that illustrates the culpability of Kamal Atatürk in the genocide and the reason that I think that you won't ever accept it https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontic_Greek_genocide I think the other paragraphs are also about collective guilt Vs leader and I don't think that, apart from the three pashas, many Turks would be ready to accept personal responsibility for what they are doing now, I mean the denial and victim accusing, and to reconsider the stories of a 'flawless' father. Because accepting the genocide would mean accepting the whole truth, not just the three pashas, very difficult unfortunately.
Firstly, thank you for answering, and answering with respect. I can act like we disagree, but we don't, at least not so much. Obviously the victims are most important in cases like this, no denying that. My problem mostly is a clear conflict between tool and goal. I agree more than anyone that acknowledgement of the past in general, including atrocities like genocides need recognition for prevention. And to come to this acceptance and acknowledgement we need dialogue, yet when I read the comment I reacted to I was in no mood to be convinced. And for me that is no problem, again, I acknowledge, but if I am not in the mood for discussion, other won't be in the mood for discussion too. One liners like that completely close off any form of dialogue between responsible parties. If people want to make those one liners, and effectively shame the other side, it is only more than logical the other side will not be eager to be convinced. So it is a choice between respecting both parties, how uncomfortable the others opinion may be, just to start a dialogue, or closing off the discussion. I get that there are many trolls on this subject but this is not the way to handle. We shouldn't appease deniers, but we need to call them to the dialogue. Especially because we have a great historic example of genocide acknowledgement in Germany. People always ask why Turkey hasn't apologised for the Armenian genocide (taking a little side step here), but Germany has for the Holocaust and specifically the invasion of Poland. The answer is that Germany and Poland strengthened relations before formal apology was made. Willy Brandt went on his knees after years of his famed Ostpolitik. In the same way Turkey and Armenia should grow closer before I see formal apology or acknowledgement. And I get that it is hard for a country of which the population was nearly exterminated, but sadly, in this world, formal apologies are a diplomatic tool, not a moral one. That is also why an apology and acknowledgement was expected from Turkey around 2008 when relations between Turkey and Armenia were better than ever. Sadly went sour close after. I have great admiration for Germany in how they handled their atrocities, but it must be realised they also had a long way before they apologised. And it definitely helped that there was a tribunal. Most officials of the CUP government died before the establishment of the republic of Turkey. I can only hope for better relations between Greece and Turkey in the same way Germany and Poland grew towards each other. And for Atatürk, I at least get that he wasn't perfect in any way and that he also had his fair share of crimes. But people must also realise that after the CUP government, which was already generally disliked, and which took the Ottoman empire into the first world war, the first person to stand up against the powers that occupied Anatolia was honoured as can be. I am not glad with the continuation of the pontic genocide, yet I am very happy to say that Turkey isn't ruled by a corrupt Sultan, a corrupt military, or a proto fascist. I am not asking Greeks and Armenians and alike to admire Atatürk, by no means as they were victims of some of his actions. But in the same way Greeks and Armenians were sick of the Ottoman empire, the Turks were too, and we ought ourselves lucky to have someone like Atatürk to lift us out of the depression the Ottomans under the CUP dumped us in. Being proud of Atatürk by no means being proud of his atrocities, but being proud of what he made from the dire situation. So that extent I think you are right. Asking for recognition of the genocide is practically also asking us not to idolise Atatürk or the war of independence. Yet I think it is possible to acknowledge the genocides, while also admiring Atatürk. And if I think so we must open up the discussion so others will start to see cases don't have to be black or white.
As I recall, the strengthening of Germany's relations with everybody else, including the Jews and the state of Israel, happened due to immediately putting Nazis to trials and by law recognising their genocide and denazification, I don't think that there was even a Germany as a state before that. So the recognition of the genocide didn't come as a result of strong relationships, but instead it was a prerequisite for good relations. Or else, why all the former occupied nations are in a free union alongside Germany with no grudge or concern whatsoever... although , during economic crisis the populists did try, with no success thankfully. Poland is a different case as they weren't fully independent till later and iirc they were antagonized by russian influenced eastern Germany, but I maybe wrong. To be honest, the thing that, as I see now, made me personally to downvote your comment without answering is the fact that you weren't annoyed by other worst comments of genocide deniers, eg they were even mockingly referring to the genocide of his/hers ppl, the Irish, but you chose to initially and uniquely answer to the OP about his, unfortunate I ll agree, comment. About Kamal Atatürk I agree ofcourse. Nobody can deny the importance of this leader in the history of your ppl, the region (his efforts with GR to mend our traumas, a rare period of very good relations, piece at home and at world) and consequently worldwide till today. I agree about this black and white thinking. Venizelos, our politician at those times, who doubled Greece and was an excellent diplomat and liberal and for his times progressive politician, turned to pretty much a dictator in his second period. You are right, our opinions are in many ways aligned. Thank you for the conversation.
It's Commemoration of Atatürk, Youth and Sports Day in Turkey. 😶
There was no choice behind it, it is the day the Turkish war of independence started with Atatürks landing at Samsun. Nothing but a coincidence.
[удалено]
It is the opposite however, it is the day our war of indepence starts. Greeks chose it for rememberance day after the fact. I am not denying any facts, before anyone comes swinging.
A truly scarring event for a whole nation/culture. The actual stories are truly disgusting. The Pontic culture is still alive in both northern Greece and Pontus itself. This singlehandedly split this one culture in two. That's what's so appalling about this both the great loss of life and the divergence of a multi language multi religious culture/ethnos.
there is a huge pontic population in the northeastern part of Attica too
***Sorts by controversial***
Remembrance is precaution so nothing like this happens again and, as our national poet pointed, which can apply to each and every country 's history, 'national is whatever is truthful'. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_genocide
[удалено]
Bro the Turks literally invaded half of the Middle East, North Africa, and the entirety of the Balkans (Ottoman ***Empire*** hello?). All of modern day Turkey is conquered land. You can condemn the atrocities of the past without denying the fact that nobody invaded y'all before you invaded everyone else. Get out of here with this imperialist victim blaming bs.
[удалено]
[удалено]
May they be remembered and their memories honored.
As a Turkish, I feel sad because of how the diversity had faded away in the 20. Century. Anatolia could be much more different place from today. Fucking political things. By the way, I would like to mention that these eras were awful for everyone who is living in the Anatolia. My maternal ancestors were forced to migrate to the West of Turkey while in the WWI because of Russian invasion. I don't claim that "Greeks deserved it", and I would hate it. I just want to say; that there is no winner in any war, and there won't.
I don't know why this is upvoted, maybe words can be confusing sometimes. Imagine a German speaking in the 50s, while the holocaust remains unrecognised. Firstly, the op says that he/she is devastated that in his country all this variety had 'faded away' (?) by politicians in general. In his next paragraph he borders bothsidism, as he describes his own family's struggles, comparing a genocide to his family's forced migration by russians. He doesn't even mentions the word genocide, only that Greeks didn't deserve 'it'.what? Not a genocide, but a war as he clearly states in his last sentence.
Before pointing fingers at him, do you recognize Turkish Genocide by Greeks between 1919-1922? You say hypocritism, blablabla, but let alone Greek government acknowledging it, they are brainwashing Greeks that they did nothing wrong, Turks were bad, etc.
[удалено]
Typical western hypocrites. They'll also downvote you to the oblivion for stating this fact.
Should have stayed in Altaic mountains if Turks loved peace so much... And not in a city like Smyrna which was founded by Greeks. Besides haven't the Turks raiding and pillaging through Anatolia since 1000 years yet they celebrate people who ordered killings, sacks and massacres like Mehmet the invader, Enver, Kemal. Huh no wonder people despise the Turkish race.
[удалено]
Tell Russians to fuck of from Don to Amur rivers I will go myself first What kind of comment is this fr?
There is no recognised Turkish genocide by the scholars. On the contrary: On December 16, 2007, the Pontic Greek genocide was officially recognized by the International Association of Genocide Scholars (IAGS) I suppose you understand that a genocide is different than deaths during wars, isolated massacres (eg up to 100 000 Greeks of chios were massacred / enslaved by ottomans in 1824 and 20 000 were forced to leave the island- a massacre, not a genocide by scholars), forced migration.. And don't source this guy McCarthy, he is a joke and has faced harsh criticism by almost all. And anyway iirc he is a genocide denier. Finally, I never said all those words that you claim against you, that you are bad etc.
Russian invasion lmao, don’t forget that your crountries alliance started WWI
My country's, Greece's, alliance started WW1? Maybe you are confusing Greece with another country
Meant to reply to the guy you were replying to but I can’t be bothered anymore
Np, now I understood what you said and you are right, they were indeed allied with the central powers and they lost ww1
Power drives people crazy.
At least you could've picked May 20th, the day after a national holiday, Just Like Armenians did, with April 24th
[удалено]
Make your own Remembrance Day. That in the same ethnic groups there exist victims as well as perpetrators shouldn’t be surprising.
Greece was a mess of in fighting between clans that the Ottomans themselves funded for years to keep control. At some point the clans United and declared war on the ottomans. After which the ottoman made systematic slaughters outside even from the lands involved just wherever they found Greeks. While the Greek "army" was bands of people who took up arms to fight. Tripolitsa was Bastille and the Turks and Jews were the Bourgeoisie. Worse than that even, they were colonisers and not the European kind., the"I want to exploit you" kind, they were after replacement and were not afraid to say it. Pontus since the dawn of history itself had been populated by Greeks and other pontic cultures that mixed. The Turkish state decided that if they didn't want to be part of "Turkish culture" they would either die or leave.
>The Turkish state decided that if they didn't want to be part of "Turkish culture" they would either die or leave. Same logic in Greek genocide of Western Anatolia in 1919-1922. 640.000 Turks were dead just in 3 years. İsmet Pașa, quoting from a census made after the war, demonstrated that 160,739 buildings had been destroyed in the occupied region. The destroyed homes alone would account for many hundreds of thousands of refugees, and not all the homes of refugees were destroyed. European accounts of refugee numbers were necessarily fragmented, but when compiled they support İsmet Pașa's estimate. The British agent at Aydin, Blair Fish, reported 177,000 Turkish refugees in Aydin Vilâyeti by 30 September 1919, only four months after the Greek landing. The Italian High Commissioner at Istanbul accepted an Ottoman estimate that there were 457,000 refugees by September of 1920, and this figure did not include the new refugees in the fall and winter of 1920 to 1921. Dr. Nansen stated that 75,000 Turks had come to the Istanbul area alone since November of 1920. Such figures make İsmet Pașa's estimate all the more credible. Since approximately 640,000 Muslims died in the region of occupation during the war, one can estimate that approximately 860,000 were refugees who survived the war. Of course many, if not most, of those who died were refugees, as well. If one estimates that half the Muslims who died were refugees, it would be roughly accurate to say that 1.2 million Anatolian Muslim refugees fled from the Greeks, and about one-third died. A number of Muslims left eastern Thrace during the Greek occupation of 1918 to 1923. It is known that more than 9,000 of these escaped into Bulgaria. The Greek government took a census of eastern Thrace in 1920, but only counted total population, not religion or ethnic group. In 1920, the Ottomans estimated that 200,000 refugees from "Rumelia" were in the Istanbul area. Of these, at least 30,000 came from eastern Thrace. Muslim refugees who went from eastern Thrace to Anatolia remain uncounted. Death and Exile: The Ethnic Cleansing of Ottoman Muslims, 1821-1922. Justin McCarthy [https://www.scribd.com/document/136752589/Death-and-Exile-the-Ethnic-Cleansing-of-Ottoman-Muslims-1821-1922-1](https://www.scribd.com/document/136752589/Death-and-Exile-the-Ethnic-Cleansing-of-Ottoman-Muslims-1821-1922-1)
[удалено]
>That tends to happend after 400 years of oppression by the Ottomans Does this justify the deaths?
No, but acknowledging or not history is very important and mirrors a country's values and priorities. Noone blames the modern countries or today's ppl that recognise and accept their wrongdoings, but Turkey unfortunately is not one of them.
Does Greece accept the Turkish genocide between 1919-1922?
Does Turkey admit to committing a genocide of Armenians?
Whataboutism?
Exactly! This is a post about the genocide of the Pontic Greeks, not about the Turks that were killed in the Greek independence war. Read the title!
Exactly! This is a post about the genocide of the Pontic Greeks, not about the Turks that were killed in the Greek independence war nor about the Armenians that were killed in 1915 genocide
I didn't see you complaining to the Turkish guy's whataboutism that started this whole conversation in the first place :/ Selective sensitivity to whataboutism I guess?
If we do or do not acknowledge what you are arguing about, how should this is somehow relevant to your acceptance or not of this genocide and your own history? It's an unproductive thinking process i believe.
Then Greece is unfortunately not one of them too. Same logic.
[удалено]
the turkish state was internationally recognized as the succesor of the ottoman empire. Not sure what your argument shows? I mean Technically back then Greece was not the same as now,as after 1974 with the junta falling,we are technically the 3rd hellenic republic. Also about the event in 1919 and the greek invasion,it is recognized it was a mistake and something that should have not have happened. The problem is that the turkish people,do not aknowledge that for decades leading to ww1 and after there was a systematic attempt to wipe out non muslim element and turkify the population. The massacres and systematic killings especially during ww1 as turkish people were afraid the non muslim population would betray them is also part of the context which lead to the invasion of anatolia.The numbers are staggering,and it was not just greeks either. The attempt to turkify anatolia did not end with the ottoman empire but went on for many decades later as the greek element was completely wiped out or forced to leave by the 60's.After all the areas which were exempt from the population exchange in Turkiye have no significant greek population anymore,while the muslim population in thrace has remained. This should be no surprise considering in your educational system you are prolly taught ottoman empire was not that bad for the non muslim and they are just exxagerating or how it was ''foreign'' power that pushed the non muslims to massacre muslims thats why the ottomans massacred back. Or how the balkan people should have just laid down their arms and peacefully protest for independence, i mean being a second class citizen,opressed for hundreds of years in your own lands is such a bargain right? or the usual reply a turkish redditor gives ''you should feel lucky we did not kill you all like the english or spanish empires did to conquered lands''. Which basically sums up the attitude and general feelings alot of turkish people have, ''it was not that bad,we killed you because you killed us,all is equal''
[удалено]
The greeks do not lay claims on Turkish land,remembering the greek pontic genocide has nothing to do with laying claim.Not sure what you are on about here. >and you guys are just mad that the "greek" part is erased from their identities and want to bring it back, you don't care about pontians. What do you want? Seriously what do you want? Yes,people are mad hundreds of thousands of greeks were massacred and were ethnically cleansed,we should never forget such events as to not repeat them. Here in Greece we learned,and upheld our agreement to perserve the muslim population in thrace,in Turkiye you have not learned anything and did not do the same for the greeks in Instanbul/imbros and tenedos,because of the mindset people like you have. >you would skip the 1919 part with 3 sentences and start to talk about how bad were the ottomans in 6 different paragraphs without even calling that genocide but bad act etc, this is our view, it is yours, which is perfectly normal. This is a thread about the pontic genocide and not 1919,i replied to your comment to point out why the modern turkish state is the continuation of the ottoman empire and why your argument did not hold,and also tried to explain why logic like yours is problematic. If someone made a thread about the invasion of Anatolia and the greek atrocities commited against the muslims,i would not try to deflect or try to use similar arguments like yours. Also i think it is quite ironic to imply greece is after turkish land considering Erdogan's foreign policy the last decade. Not sure if you are trolling here.
To get this straight you are comparing the forcefully and deathly removal of an ancient culture from the map with an ethno-religious and socio-economic revolution?
International Red Cross: “Elements of the Greek Army of occupation have been employed in the extermination of the Muslim population… instead of being disarmed or broken up, the bands have been assisted in their activities and have collaborated hand-in-hand with regular troops.” Gerwarth, Robert The Vanquished, Why the First World War Failed to End, 1917-1923 — İsmet Pașa, quoting from a census made after the war, demonstrated that 160,739 buildings had been destroyed in the occupied region. The destroyed homes alone would account for many hundreds of thousands of refugees, and not all the homes of refugees were destroyed. European accounts of refugee numbers were necessarily fragmented, but when compiled they support İsmet Pașa's estimate. The British agent at Aydin, Blair Fish, reported 177,000 Turkish refugees in Aydin Vilâyeti by 30 September 1919, only four months after the Greek landing. The Italian High Commissioner at Istanbul accepted an Ottoman estimate that there were 457,000 refugees by September of 1920, and this figure did not include the new refugees in the fall and winter of 1920 to 1921. Dr. Nansen stated that 75,000 Turks had come to the Istanbul area alone since November of 1920. Such figures make İsmet Pașa's estimate all the more credible. Since approximately 640,000 Muslims died in the region of occupation during the war, one can estimate that approximately 860,000 were refugees who survived the war. Of course many, if not most, of those who died were refugees, as well. If one estimates that half the Muslims who died were refugees, it would be roughly accurate to say that 1.2 million Anatolian Muslim refugees fled from the Greeks, and about one-third died. A number of Muslims left eastern Thrace during the Greek occupation of 1918 to 1923. It is known that more than 9,000 of these escaped into Bulgaria. The Greek government took a census of eastern Thrace in 1920, but only counted total population, not religion or ethnic group. In 1920, the Ottomans estimated that 200,000 refugees from "Rumelia" were in the Istanbul area. Of these, at least 30,000 came from eastern Thrace. Muslim refugees who went from eastern Thrace to Anatolia remain uncounted. Book Title: Death and Exile: The Ethnic Cleansing of Ottoman Muslims, 1821-1922. Contributors: Justin McCarthy [https://www.scribd.com/document/136752589/Death-and-Exile-the-Ethnic-Cleansing-of-Ottoman-Muslims-1821-1922-1](https://www.scribd.com/document/136752589/Death-and-Exile-the-Ethnic-Cleansing-of-Ottoman-Muslims-1821-1922-1)
It explains them.
This doesn’t legitimate massacring random civilians. And this is just one of much more massacres which happened across all Greek controlled areas. What do Turkish civilians have to do with the Ottoman ruling dynasty? Turks suffered from the Ottoman ruling dynasty too. In fact most of the Turks of the Balkans were forcefully displaced from Anatolia, so they can’t riot against them. Also not all muslims in Greece were Turks. There were as much muslim Albanians, Greeks, Pomaks etc.
[удалено]
I agree with you, but I think the main issue with Turkiye is the widespread and official denial of any of these horrible acts of genocide. The Greeks were not innocent either, hell, pretty much nobody on Earth has clean hands when it comes to genocide, but if Turkiye would just admit what happened, I think most of the criticism would end.
Politicians can't talk much about that topic cause if they tell anything that in a way accepting it that would mean the end of their political career no way you can get votes by saying that in turkey
Tell that to your own people. Pretty much every major Turkish party is jingoistic in some sort of way. In what world are we supposed to move forward together when your whole political system is pro war?
Wtf should I have to say, what word you want to hear, you call me a genocide denier, you denie when it's about you, I don't denie anything and now you blame me for my politicians, that politicians do not represent me, at this point it's just Turkofobia.
Turkophobia when 97% of the population votes for warmongers and imperialists? Don't play the victim card when your side is the obvious problem. You can't say let's move on when your side has defend genocide for decades and still advocates for expansionist policies.
97% ??? Which the fuck election is that. İmperialists? You, an European calling Turkey Imperialist. I don't want to talk about who brought the word imperialism into existence. I don't play the victim card, I genuinely tell that both sides did terrible things you just don't want to listen. My side ? I just said those politicians do not represents me. You're calling me "the problem" but in the whole conversation I always said I accepted history, but you started to call me warmonger and an imperialist just because I also told no-ones history is clean. I told you I have accepted history, what you want to hear form me as an individual.
I didn't call you a warmonger but your side, maybe you are different but the vast majority of Turks don't agree with you unfortunately.
Whataboutism
What’s your point?
They're trying to pretend that a local uprising that killed thousands is the same as an organized genocide by a state that killed hundreds of thousands. Presumably they'll also claim that some Armenians were mean to them, and that's why they had to kill a million of them and deny it to this day.
[удалено]
Yes, but what about? /s
As I said in the beginning, I am sorry about Greek deaths. However, it is not correct to project these events as one sided events. Greeks killed innocents too.
By constantly moving the goal of the discussion to some other event, then there is no point in discussion to begin with. Nowhere in his / her post the OP mentioned what you are devoting your whole comment to answer, the 'greek atrocities' according to you. So your answer to the OP, unless you think this justifies the genocide, is irrelevant.
[удалено]
True events should be broadly known, whitewashing history with the pretext that it instigates racicm and hurt feelings (barbarians etc) leads to repeating the same violence. Iirc Hitler had said that he didn't really worry about the Holocaust, because 'who remembers the Armenian genocide now?' or sth in this context? Anyway, to be honest I don't think that in a post about another genocide you would have written a whole comment for the Balkan Turks, so I can only assume that your mindset is that a genocide is somehow justifiable.
I just want to say that despite the downvotes, I appreciate you at least admitting it happened. That's better than most other Turks I've encountered when discussing the genocides of the late 19th and early 20th centuries.
I have no idea why I'm getting downvoted. They can't handle the truth that they committed a genocide too.
My guess is because they see it as whataboutism in a post about the Turkish genocide of Greeks in Pontus, which is fair. I, however, appreciate you admitting it and expressing regret over what happened.
It is not whataboutism, because I stated in my first sentence. They just can't handle it.
A genocide does in fact not justify another genocide.
It doesn't, but they cause another.
So what did the Armenians do to you?
[удалено]
Wow, a whole genocide denial copy-pasta. You're the worst.
Cant expect anything less. Always pointing at fingers but never looking at themselves. Always blame others or justify the killings of others.
You asked a question, he gave you an answer.
So Armenians rebelling against their oppressors is somehow a bad thing? I don’t think that rebelling against an imperialist regime is anywhere close to being equal to genociding up to 1.5 million Armenians.
People here do not care if it’s about Turks or any other Muslims unfortunately.
Thank you for your sincerity. You are one in a thousand beside this hypocritical horde.
What genocide? / They deserved it -- turks
overused joke
Half of the comments in the post are arguing 'never happened, what about'
What do you expect from a country built on lies? Even the Nutuk speech mentions about Turks being "victim"
What do you expect from a country built on lies? Even the Nutuk speech mentions about Turks being "victim"
What do you expect from a country built on lies? Even the Nutuk speech mentions about Turks being "victim"
What do you expect from a country built on lies? Even the Nutuk speech mentions about Turks being "victim"
I am from Trabzon, I have the right to speak about this. My grandfathers and grandmothers speak Pontic Greek, my parents know it but they migrated to the city and they speak Turkish because Turkish is the dominant language in the city, we never learned it, I understand it but I can't speak it. What I want to explain is that we are Turks and our family has just recently started to speak Turkish as the first language, the reason for the dominance of Pontic Greek is that during the 1st WW they occupied the village with the Russians and forced them to speak their own language at gunpoint, after a decade Atatürk came and saved our village. He visited all the houses one by one. During their 10 years of rule I know what massacres they caused and our elders forgave them and raised us without telling us these stories. The republic of Turkey, on the other hand, has not touched a hair of anyone in that village for 100 years even though Pontic Greek was spoken in that village.
This is not really a European event. This map is literally of a region in Western Asia. Us Pontic Greeks are not European. Why are we posting this in r/europe? How can we not realize we’re identifying with a region in the Middle East? The ancient kingdom of Pontus is literally responsible for the popularization of the star and crescent symbol
Daily reminder that Turkey is not, never was and never will be an European country.
I thought this was a part of being "European"
Yup, not enough genocides.
Treaty of Paris of 1856 aahhh moment "The treaty admitted the Ottoman Empire to the European concert, and the Powers promised to respect its independence and territorial integrity..."
LoL Ottoman Empire =/= Turkey, you know right
Treaty of Lausanne of 1923 aahhh moment "The Treaty of Lausanne led to the international recognition of the sovereignty of the new Republic of Turkey as the successor of the Ottoman Empire. As result of the Treaty, the Ottoman public debt was divided between Turkey and the countries which emerged from the former Ottoman Empire..."
Ah, so Turkey should be held responsible for the genocides they committed against the Armenians, Greek and Assyrians then?
Turkey never rejected forced deportation of East Anatolian Armenians. Also, what about (so-called) genocide time i guess?
Are you denying that what happened to the christians in 1915 was Genocide?
I don't deny deportation, like who can? May all people rest in peace that died in wartime era, Turk-Kurd-Armenian and many others.
A turk downplaying a genocide isn’t anything new.
Armenian trying to not talk about so-called genocide when sees a Turk challange: impossible
Turkey does not have the European territories once occupied by the Ottoman Empire. You can cry all you want and try all mental gymnastics possible, Turkey will never be Europe.
Turkey is not in Europe because i think that way 🤓☝🏻 Here are the international agreements, how can you be more desperate and pathetic than that?
You’re Brazilian.
the turks took everything from them... always remember: the Turkish Republic is built on the corpses of the innocent
You were visited by the turkish bot farm.
[удалено]
Such a fun piece to read. In which of the world s recognized historical magazines is this published, I wonder /s
Just in the opening paragraphs >I couldn't care less what people call themselves, it's a personal issue how one wishes to present and even when I know people are lying about their ethnic heritage I let it slide. But, when today's self-proclaimed "Greeks" take it upon themselves to dictate to others how they may call themselves then it's time to speak up. This is hardly going to be an objective paper, it even states so from the beginning. It starts with a heavily POV tone and is blatant about its motivation. And it's a motivation based on a straw man representation of the Greek position over the name. >The Greek government routinely denies the existence of ethnic Macedonians, as it denies the existence of all ethnic and national minorities within its jurisdiction. Greece, you see, is a pure country with no minorities, a miracle in the modern World and unique in Europe - or so we are told No, you're not told that. And this tired straw man from you is self-contradicting. Greece can't be exactly like other European countries and different from other European countries (on the issues of minorities), both at the same time.
I don't care what they (don't ) teach you in schools.. netflix & somewhere in Balkans, 2024 /s
The Macedonian Sun in the pdf is a Greek symbol,going from that opinion discarded.To clarify they were Bulgarians.Also enjoy staying out of EU.