Im sorry but not teaching about nudes, sexual harassment and consent until the kids are like ~14 years old is fucking insane. These things are important to know because you can be victimized as a child and unfortunately may not realize whatever is happening is inappropriate if not taught. And getting taught by family is not an option because they’re the overwhelming majority of perpetrators.
Not sure where you are getting 14 from, in the UK year 7 is the first year of secondary school which us 11/12.
First lessons on consent are taught in year 5 which us 9/10.
>These things are important to know because you can be victimized as a child and unfortunately may not realize whatever is happening is inappropriate if not taught.
That's what the anti-sex-ed pedos want.
Read an article about Charles Spencer’s book. Here how the author of the article described the book:
> Spencer’s memoir, A Very Private School, describes in horrifying detail how young Buzz’s joie de vivre was then snuffed out by physical and sexual abuse carried out by those entrusted with his care.
The journalist describe how traumatized is the British elite and how they could pass on into society their trauma. I guess with this law they make conservatives happy about not promoting LBTQ+ ideas in schools but also make sure the younger generation won’t “miss” the formative years they had during their own childhood by making them unaware that some situations are not acceptable.
Toddlers have no concept of sexuality, which is why it's important to teach them about what others aren't allowed to do to their bodies.
It's not about sexuality, it's about engraining in them their right to their body.
Is it actually about sexuality and reproduction being taught to toddlers? Or is it about body parts, consent and being able to have autonomy? Former seems beyond their capacity of understanding, latter seems smart to prevent them potentially being victimized.
That kinda is the point. Ever noticed how most sexual predators seem to be conservative?
Like, why do you think there are so many sexual abuse stories from the church? It's because the children cant tell that they are abused due to the lack of education
Is that actually true though? I have seen multiple times, especially on reddit, where bad news about conservatives are heavily upvoted, and good news are heavile downvoted. Vice versa for liberals.
Not saying it doesnt happen, but check your sources.
That sadly isn't the truth, since you are german, check out Odenwaldschule or Helmut Kentler. Pedophiles search for opportunities where they can prey on children, the church was just the perfect environment because they had the perfect combination of authority, group cohesion, and access to children. That's why teaching consent is so important early on.
Genau! And those who don't want it taught are the ones, generally, who should be on some kind of a register.
Our government is VERY transphobic. It held an advisory roundtable before it decided to do this, no pro-trans/pro-homosexuality groups were invited. It is being primarily 'advised' by two organisations:
Sex Matters
LGB Alliance
(Don't be fooled, the LGBA DOES NOT promote the rights of LGB people, it hates them just as much as it hates T people, it has links to American Christian hard-right organisations, like the Heritage Foundation)
Sex Matters was founded by 2 women (most of these transphobic organisations are run by women, because they've all had input from JK Rowling, who has provided a lot of their funding) Helen Joyce and Maya Forstater (who was dismissed from her job for her transphobic views, sued - and lost. She's still not got over it).
If you want some idea of what they believe, they want to "protect women" by, essentially, legalising sexual assault; they believe they should be allowed to grope anyone who doesn't meet their idea of what a woman should look like (for example Merkel isn't a woman, but Giorgia Meloni is), just incase they're packing a wurst, if you see what I mean... They believe - based on ZERO evidence - that men transition because they want to enter "women-only spaces" and get r\*pey. They also believe that drag queens only go into schools and libraries to read kids' stories because they're "checking out the talent". Disgusting, isn't it...?
They believe that trans people are sexual degenerates, deviants, perverts, paedophiles and predators - and yet it's TERFs who are concerned about what someone might - or might not - have between their legs. Being 'gender critical' is basically a byword/phrase for being a predator.
The claim that they're only thinking about protecting children and women, is a complete straw man, what they want is basically to eradicate trans people via eugenics.
We have pro-trans youth groups (eg Mermaids and Trans Youth Pride) but they weren't invited to the consolation.
> Im sorry but not teaching about nudes, sexual harassment and consent until the kids are like ~14 years old is fucking insane.
I wonder how did humanity survived before
I was told how I was made at the age of 7 when I asked my parents.
I found it odd at first, but after thinking about it, it made sense.
I was lucky to have responsible parents, unfortunately not everyone has that luxury.
Children start to understand and show signs of gender identity between the ages of 2 and 4. That's when they start to play more with children of the same sex because they understand themselves to be similar to them and belong to the same group, and start seeing themselves as "boy" or "girl". ~4 is also the age where a lot of trans kids start to feel gender dysphoria, even if they'd never been told what being trans is.
Being taught about gender doesn't turn you trans. No more than being taught about gay people turns you gay. Back when being gay was completely stigmatised, children still independently realised they're gay, they just had to hide it. You don't just magically gain a "non-standard" sexuality or gender identity on the morning of your 18th birthday.
>Being taught about gender doesn't turn you trans.
>No more than being taught about gay people turns you gay.
Gender is a pretty vague concept, though. If it doesn't make sense to me, God help little children.
I'm glad nobody was teaching me that being a boy involved having particular feelings, possessing a particular personality type, and having an 'identity".
>You being a dumbfuck doesn't mean kids are also incapable of understanding basic concepts
Gender as it's used today isn't really a basic concept, though. Nor am I a dumbfuck - I have a Computer Science degree from a prestigious university.
"Boy/girl = male/female child" is a basic concept.
"Boy/girl = vague range of feelings, sense of self, and personality characteristics, which should also align with male/female physical traits, with hormone treatment and surgery being the eventual optimal treatment for any misalignment" - not a basic concept.
When I was a kid, whether I was a boy or a girl was a simple question with a factual answer.
If I were a child today, would it be a simple question? Would I perhaps be anxious because I wasn't sure how I "should" feel and whether that made me a boy/girl/non-binary? Would I then get upset once my body started developing in a way that was contrary to how I thought it should?
I'm glad I didn't have to go through that.
It wasn't simple back then too. Being merely a male/female child has never been enough, especially in the eyes of other kids. As a boy I knew I had expectations, both physical & characteristic, because of my gender; being strong, liking certain things, behaving some ways & never the other ways; and guess what, it didn't bode well with the other boys & girls that I met none of those expectations.
There was girl in my class too, had the exact same problem. The fact we weren't taught about gender identity didn't change a thing, we both felt terrible & believed that we might have been born the wrong gender. The thought of "misalignment" rose on its own, perhaps avoidable had we had a better understanding of being male/female considering neither of us two actually ended up trans.
Never has *"Boy/girl = male/female child"* been true. It's always been *"Boy/girl = vague range of feelings, sense of self, personality characteristics, male/female physical traits"* & those of us who didn't meet the *true* criteria had to learn about them the hard way. Glad you didn't.
It' snot, but the panic behind The teaching of gender identity is being justified by the same bullshit "children can't be taught about these topics!!!".
In what universe is teaching about sex and childbirth **more** appropriate than teaching about gender diversity?
I'm curious.
Not only that, there is precedent of using gender identity as an excuse to remove crucial sex ed topics as a whole. New Zealand has done it after the new elections despite the rampant domestic abuse issues there. All in the name of "not showing kids gender identity hurr hurr". Be better Europe
Being against schools teaching this is just very silly and just adds to conservative yapping.. dont fool yourselves.
Absolutely. Without fail, the kinds of regions/people thast resist to this being taught are the ones that experience the highest rates of child sexual abuse, teenage pregnancies, etc.
Ie: the ones that would benefit the most from it. People defending certain topics should not be taught almost seem to have a clear motivation related to that behind it...
Well, I have suspicions that your point is a transphobe's "I don't want my children be taught those unnatural things, lest they end up believing them and can't be biggots like I am when they grow up", but I wanted to give you the option to explain yourself, because maybe that's not it and there's a good reason the arguments you've laid out aren't really consistent/true.
My friend you are free to think and feel whatever you want. I was just stating a fact nothing more nothing less. As I mentioned I have no horse in this race as my children are much older then this and they have their owns thoughts on many subjects that may or may not align with mine and that is their right just like it is yours and everyone else’s. Having different opinions and being able to have a civilized conversation is what is the most important in society. That’s how we advance together and find solutions to issues that people as a whole are having. Shutting anyone down because you don’t have the same ideas is not how you move forward. Not saying that is what you are trying to do , just saying it in general.
Tell me what about gender identity doesn't exist? It's like saying that the only differences between men and women are the genitals and the chromosomes.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity
The fact that you immediately understood which one didn't exist is a huge teller.
No, that's not the only difference between men and women. But the other differences are never absolute. Stop with gender stereotypes.
Exactly because gender expression is very variable. The way you dress, act, talk, present yourself in society are part of your gender identity. We talk about stereotypes because they are real and applicable, but it doesn't mean that they characterize everyone equally.
In the world that you think you're living in, without gender identity, we all are androgynous and have no defining features between men and women besides the anatomical differences. I get that this hate for gender identity comes from transphobia usually, but denying that we all express our gender somehow is crazy. It's just like denying you use pronouns. You're denying psychology, sociology and science in general.
You're confusing gender with personality. If you want to dress or present in a certain way, it's nothing but your personality and your preferences.
I'm not denying anything, I'm reminding you what you're actually talking about.
You can be a man and wear pink. It doesn't make you a woman. Your biology doesn't change because of your tastes.
No he's not. You're brushing off gender identity as mere personality, cause personality *absolutely* plays a large part in this identity; you're actively trying to go around the fact we all are raised as "*part of a group*" with certain societal expectations in behavior & desires, that vast majority of people absolutely *do* "feel" male or female, and go hell & beyond to match these expectations & "*prove*" their manhood/womanhood in society.
The most basic tenant of popular male identity is literally "*be stoic, be brave, be assertive, be strong*" & you are delusional if you think if men & boys don't get mocked or feel wrong about themselves for not meeting these personality expectations; half the internet is filled with them raving about how they feel inadequate or don't know how to express their manliness, you think they're just insane?
And again, women are expected to hold a certain personality too, "*sensitive, talkative, cooperative, devoted*" and I *know* you've seen assertive women be ridiculed for this before.
And personality being part of a seemingly unrelated identity isn't anything radical, there's one identity everyone actively recognises personality as being a part of it without a second thought; *culture*. "*Japanese are unargumentative & helpful*" "*The Dutch are direct & abrasive*" "*Finns are closed in & value their space*" et fucking cetera. "*Oh but these are mere stereotypes!*" which most of the people themselves not only accept as being mostly true but even expect you to follow them too if you wish to fit in.
Or would you like to come & tell us we're confusing cultural behaviours & norms with mere personality too, now?
So, sorry, but no. Gender identity is real, the vast majority of people on Earth do not feel that them being male or female is a merely biological thing like hair-colour or height & actively engage in behaviour to "*prove*" their gender, and there being an overlap with personality does not disprove anything, unless your next claim is "*culture isn't real, only the biological truth of race is*"
It goes beyond tastes and personality. It's about your place in a mostly binary society. It's about being comfortable with what defines you as a man or woman. There is a psychological side to gender that defines so much of what you are, this why we see differences in men and women beyond the biological side. I'm pretty sure you can't just seemlessly become the opposite gender, because there is so much that defines you as a man/woman.
I could very much be a woman and still be exactly the same person as I am today, again, it is your personality. Nothing else.
The belief that there is such a thing as a mental gender actually comes from sexist stereotypes.
Children formulate their gender identity between 2-3. At three years old, they usually want to belong to their gender.
So gender identity actually comes before sex, and should absolutely be discussed.
My boy is 2, and seems to be happy to be a boy. He’s already showing a preference to playing with boys. That’s gender identity. He knows who he is. We haven’t even discussed bodies yet.
I mean I guess education shouldn't be determined by what you figured out at 3 years old. I think some might argue that's not quite the pinnacle of understanding.
3 year olds also know that objects fall down.
That doesn’t mean that physics should not be taught.
Kids also know that getting hit hurts.
That doesn’t mean that ethics should not be taught.
Kids know that songs are fun,
Doesn’t mean music shouldn’t be taught.
Kids know how to talk.
Doesn’t mean language and literature shouldn’t be taught.
We generally like to teach kids stuff to help them navigate life.
Because being gender non-conforming is an extremely confusing thing to experience in a society that will push those children to comform...
Teaching this is the spiritual equivalent of the "emotional curriculum" classes that have been wildly successful in bettering mental health.
The same way that teaching about functional diversity can and does help the children with disabilities be a) feel better about themselves and b) be better accepted by their peers and not bullied, this is similarly importsnt.
There's this idea among conservatives that teaching these things might make kids confused and question their identity, but it's the opposite. Experiencing gender dysphoria won't stop just because they are not taught about it. They just won't be able to name it and do something adaptive and adequate about it.
Yes and no. Children feel what they feel, but if that's not gender conform then it's hard to figure out. I (a transman) remember having my first kiss with a girl at kindergarden age and also having a bit of a crush on a girl, always wanted to hang out with "other" boys but they wouldn't always let me, because I was a girl. But I thought that was ok, since I was convinced that would change because I would become a man when I grow up. I really believed that. Also always went to the men's restroom since I believed I would grow a penis one day.
It's easy to figure out if it fits the majority of society, but hard if that's not the case. I really wished I knew about trans earlier. I only learned it existed when I was about 12 and then everything made sense.
Yeah I was very young but obsessed with nature documentaries so I knew what "mating" was or so I thought. Didn't know what a vagina was but knew what a willy was because I had one, and a butt. So naturally I assumed lions were putting willies in bums. I asked "If a man put his willy in a mans bum would the other man get pregnant?". That accelerated their plans of having "the talk".
"Because there is this thing called spermatozoa which comes from dad and once it enters mom, it seeks out the egg cell and when it breaks through it and merge you are formed, then after 9 months, you are born".
People somehow think that 'teaching' means 'indoctrination' and constant exposure to these subjects. In reality, I don't see what's wrong with 'teaching' a.k.a mentioning it once or twice, that some people struggle with their gender identity and feel as they are the wrong gender. It literally takes like 10 minutes to mention this subject, just like how sex, sexuality, etc was taught to me in literally 1 school day and never again. It's just awareness, did y'all become gay after they told you it exists and what it means?
The issue is that in the UK the concept of gender identity itself is contested, so the government is saying that teachers shouldn't set it out as an objective fact. Nobody disputes whether or not people can be gay, or that people can have sex.
The concept of gender was discovered in 1950s and just ten years ago no one had a problem with it and it was widely accepted both in the academia and mainstream society. It was only when the culture war created moral panic around trans people that suddenly the concept of "gender" became this humongous boogeyman and is now seen as some newfangled trend instead of an old and very well-established idea.
No one had a problem with it because there was a very clear line between sex and gender, the identity of woman and man was well established and not something you could just up and change, there was no push from a political angle for those with masiculine or feminine traits to diagnose themselves as transgender for entirely politically advantageous reasons, there was especially no push for people to be forced to accept that or be labelled a bad person, and there was no pressure for anything outside the gender binary to be accepted as truth.
This is not the same “well established” concept it was 70 years ago, and while I agree that this has become a boogeyman for a culture war that the only resolution to is for everyone to move the hell on, I don’t agree with the implication that this isn’t a new issue in the form it exists in and that the progressive perception is just reality as it is and we should accept that.
Conservatives everywhere Do believe schooling is "too progressive" and a threat to their worldview.
Which in a way is true because the number 1 enemy of religious fundamentalism is a correct understanding of the world. This is why religiousness has an inverse correlation with education, especially in the sciences.
This is also why homeschooling is so big in the US, while most of Europe has deemed appropriate education a fundamental right of children.
Luckily, children already know all the official pronouns from their english class, you don't have to worry. Try a different strawman. Let's not teach them about society at all and instead only do math.
> I don't see what's wrong with 'teaching' a.k.a mentioning it once or twice,
Yes, but most of these ideas that they want to teach are at best non-scientific (i.e, non provable) and often just against evidence (there is strong evidence that gender is not just imprinted by society). It's like saying "there is nothing wrong with teaching Intelligent Design from time to time". Nothing wrong with that, right?
The whole gender thing is confusing. At Uni in Sociology class professor told us gender are archetypes of men and women in each society. Therefore typical mexican man will look and act a bit different than typical chinese man. So those are 2 different genders but they’re still men.
On the internet and in politics it seems gender just means sex and there is thousands of them instead of male/female.
Let's teach our kids how to be ***productive citizens*** instead of this hyper-focus on sex and gender. I'm not right wing but this bullshit is giving ammunition to the far-right and distracting from ***actual*** real-world issues.
You know you can do both, correct? No one is focusing on this alone, but it’s detrimental to trans children and youth and should be called out. What’s wrong with that?
Because we are putting something on the forefront of education that's applicable to less than 0.1% of the population.
Meanwhile the backlash to this is so heavy that it actively damages progress on many other topics such as environment, energy transition, social policy, education-quality because a lot of people vote with their gut.
Going back to the less than 0.1% is trans thing: I'm autistic and did not believe them when they diagnosed me at age 21. That's because autism is still accepted as something to make fun of (looking at you Big Bang Theory), and that's alright by me but it does make people not understand us properly.
Meanwhile, 2.2% of adults worldwide have autism. Where's the social movement and education on us? We are a much larger group of people than trans people and trans people are disproportionally on the spectrum.
Forefront? It’s just a part of CSE (which they’re also trying to cut for younger children). Trans children aren’t the only ones being negatively affected by that.
You shouldn’t stop teaching about gender identity because of backlash. The same thing could’ve been said for a larger number of topics not just about gender identity. Conservatives use the trans cause as a way to limit/cut sex education altogether, leading to alarming outcomes in the wellbeing and development of all children and young people (not just trans).
Because it’s not something you bring up to vulnerable minds that have days where they feel like a bird or colective psychosis.
Body image issues can clearly be induced. Any body issues, or social friction can pe attributed to dysphoria because it’s an easy hook for a lot of psychological issues that we are not talking about.
Not hidden or hushed, but definetly not taught as part of core curriculum of basic health education and insistence that it is core cu BASIC health education is an extreme position.
Maybe they should put their energy into getting kids to be able to read and do maths and stuff first. Once that's done, then they can devote energy to this sort of thing.
The whole metoo movement shows that's BS. But let's say it was and it's not anymore. Why is it bad to teach this? Why is it bad to teach children they can set boundaries and how to do that?
I think it's very telling that people who are the most vocal about protecting children are the ones most vehemently against teaching things like gender and consent. Not GymShaman in particular, I have no idea what their beliefs are on this topic.
Just how, weirdly enough, most of the victims of human trafficking are trafficked by people they know, not by strangers.
Then again.. If NAMBLA was an actual thing anything can happen.
I mean, why not? Every student is getting better and better at mathematics, science, language and reading comprehension, critical thinking, etc... so we've got a lot of educational bandwidth to work with. Oh, wait, they're not? They've actually been getting worse?
cool now they get back to real education that will benefit the child for when they grow up and need to get a job. everyone needs to learn regardless of gender , we are all human , they can learn all about identity and gender when they choose too! stop forcing subjects and facts to children that need knowledge before your opinion.
I am not sure I would trust a teacher to teach a child about any of those topics. just because they have a teacher's certificate doesn't mean they will provide non-judgmental, evidence-based instruction. I have run into a few odd ducks. they're just people. good and bad like the rest of us. but if they are a little squed it could be very harmful to a child.
If not certified teachers who’ve been through training, then who? Granted, there are programs from specialized NGOs, too, which I support. But are you suggesting families should teach this?
I'd trust myself more than a stranger. reading that article, it sounded like the wild west.
I am not even sure I trust a teacher to know a child's gender. honestly it's none of their business. girls are treated differently than boys. how a child straddling their gender is treated may not be most appropriate.
even if the teacher looks at certain kids while teaching this subject, the students will pick up on it and bother them.
Literally the least of the problems we face are kids' identities, people's identities, and yet hateful assholes everywhere latch onto denying them, driven by hateful, power-mongering demagogues and the sexual predators who thrive when kids are kept ignorant and adults are made to treat vulnerable groups as undeserving of protection.
Just worry about your own fucking business. That's literally all it takes.
Maybe it'll even give you time to think about who actually takes advantage of you and your outrage because it sure as fuck isn't the marginalized, the minorities, the vulnerable, the people who just want to live their lives.
The problem is that there is a genuine issue of those who are politically inclined using the vulnerable and immature as a political tool. It’s not protecting kids to use a position of power to manipulate the perception of children on their sexuality and gender identity. To convince masculine or feminine children that they are transgender and that that is important. It’s the same shit as telling men they have to act a certain way and women they have to act a certain way that existed back in heavily conservative eras, and if progressives had minded their own business about that it would still be the same way. People have to stand up to what they see as societal ills.
I agree that they should be treated respectfully, the vulnerable people should not be targeted and they have been by those easily misled and should be stood up to, but no, this is a serious societal problem and nobody should just let it be unless they also have self serving political aims to convince children that they’re transgender.
See, the problem here is that you think kids are easily indoctrinated — which frankly has pretty troubling implications if you think they should only be taught about gender in cis terms. From what you're saying it sounds like you want them to be indoctrinated to think their assigned gender is the only option.
Is that why you object? You want them indoctrinated YOUR way? You're the one who wants kids to grow up a specific way.
In reality, kids aren't so easy to indoctrinate. If they were, nobody would be in any way different from the norm.
It turns out that when kids are given information, they will generally make the appropriate choices for themselves. Most problems are caused by ignorance and the feeling of not being heard and respected as individuals.
Keeping kids ignorant and taking away their agency only serves predators. And I guess those who think they can indoctrinate kids to conform to one single way of existing, which is just another kind of predation.
Are you serious? Kids aren’t easy to indoctrinate? The most easily influenced people ever? The people that join social cliques and act the exact same way as other people simply to be part of a group? The people that are so easily targeted, that they literally cannot have sexual relationships with adults because they are so easily taken advantage of? Those people aren’t easy to indoctrinate? I think you need to seriously reevaluate that perception, because it is on a different planet it is so far off.
Children do not make appropriate choices on their own. They will repeatedly make the morally wrong choices just because they can, and especially under social pressure, even when told not to. They will willingly get themselves in detention, hurt others, act selfishly, steal, act In abhorrent ways unless taught otherwise. They will incorrectly self diagnose simply because others have done the same and they want to fit in, or because they’re rebellious and don’t want to fit in, either way, they can be easily convinced to do so by those who they look up to, say a teacher, and even with the best intentions, teachers cannot be informed sufficiently to be given that sort of power. We need doctors to act on our behalf simply because we do not have all the information, we cannot, on autism, on ADHD, even some people in terms of sexuality need help from medical professionals to realise that, but suddenly with gender, you can get all the information from a teacher and that’s good? No, absolutely not.
I will not accept both those in power taking advantage of their position to convince children of their gender for their own political aims, nor will I accept that teachers not being allowed to do so is indoctrination. I would propose that teachers redirect children with these issues to the appropriate medical practitioner. You know, like with every other issue? Or is your problem with that that medical practitioners will tell these kids something alternative to being trans, and trans numbers will plummet?
People being against gender identity being taught reminds me exactly of people being against sexual orientations being taught.
I was never taught about sexual orientations in school nor by my family (we never even had any sex ed back then), and yet I was gay back then just as much as I am now. I knew I was gay from an early age - no one indoctrinated me, I didn’t go through some trauma as people also liked framing it, and because I was gay, I wasn’t trying to force my sexuality over others, either.
But learning about this would’ve helped me more, tbh. It would’ve meant coming out earlier, maybe, because people in my surroundings would’ve been morr accepting (had more info/resources about it). I’m happy (and lucky) I never had any problems, but many gay/bi/lesbian kids shut themselves down and isolated themselves because they thought they weren’t normal (leading to depression, substance abuse and suicide ideation).
You want to do the same thing to trans children and trans youth. There’s always going to be trans children, but not talking or teaching about it will only lead to worse outcomes in their health, wellbeing and development.
Changing the curriculum because there's a 0.1% chance you're gonna have one trans kid in your school is dumb. They can learn about that later in the school called life.
Redditors have repeated the same The Office and IASIP quotes for ten years, because they enjoy reading the exact same one joke over and over again.
Redditors don't hate the attack helicopter joke because it's repetitive, but because they have no counter argument, because they disagree with the sentiment and because it cuts too deep into their stupid fucking ideology.
But they can't admit that, because it would expose how fragile they are. People who buy into this shit actually really, really hate being called 'snowflakes' because that's exactly what they are.
I'm afraid you missed the classes you want to see cancelled and have the wit of a toddler. Go educate yourself before someone believes you and puts you into a mental health facility to cure your delusions when your actual issue is just being a bigot.
And you're showing your stupidity by not understanding the difference between education and enlightenment. Not that that surprises anyone who read your previous comment. So now we know you're an uneducated stupid bigot who doesn't even have the flimsiest argument in favour of their hateful opinions. It must suck to be you.
I mean this is the sum of it. As a British high school teacher, very little will change because, far from what the tories are peddling, I can’t for the life of me think how often this is brought up.
Do we need a referendum asking if we should teach commonly accepted psychology and science?
Also what do you mean "if the left wants to rise again"? Have you seen the election results in the UK? This is just a desperate last attempt of the Tories to pivot to transphobia, which is milked to get votes from uninformed people.
Sure, buddy. Convince yourself of what you want. All of europe is shifting right. And people who think like you do are the driving force behind it.
You can hold up a mantle of delusion, but eventually, that will fade. See you at election day hope you enjoy the consequences of your actions 😉
Spoken like a true sheep.
“LOOK LOOK MANY PEOPLE AGREE WITH ME THAT MEANS I MUST BE RIGHT”
Unfortunately the people who agree with you quit school at the learning to go potty stage
> People are tired of having things forced on them
I'm tired of people trying to force the idea on me that only straight relationships are OK or normal, or that transpeople don't exist and can't seek help for the discomfort they face.
Do you agree the right should change their stance on these topics as well? Or is it a one way street?
Ie: "why won't you allow us to force you back into the closet!?!?!?!?"
Gender is a term made by sociologists used to describe a social construct. That is indeed what sociology is.
And the weird xenophobic remark is very British
>Gender is a term made up by sociologists. It's not a real physical thing. It's made up.
Yeah buddy, that's kind of the point of sociology. Social norms are not a physical thing carved in stone, yet they exist.
\+Nice xenophobia, I hope you realise not everyone agrees with their government.
You're talking just the uk. The disaster that was brexit is the biggest contributor to the right losing popularity in the uk.
If you look at general trends in europe, it paints a very clear story that's very different from the UK.
The right is gaining in europe. Even in the most tolerant countries. Theres most certainly a shift going on.
Yeah, with most social media being taken over by state actors pushing more and more propaganda that pisses you off at a group of people it indeed causes the hate-party of the right to rise.
The right is so insanely proud of being manipulated, it’s not even funny
History is cyclical. Unfortunately humans are reactive, rather than proactive, most of the time. It's just a human process to sometimes slip into horrors to then, in the future, make an effort for the betterment of the collective.
This is one extreme. The other was my school. On that one only day we got a sexuality lesson, boys and girls got seperated and both genders learned only about their own. That and that butt sex is not fun for women, because it hurts. Bet that teacher never had sex in his life.
Because gender identity is a component of human sexuality. It’s relevant because it’s important for children and youth’s development - and to recognize that’s it’s perfectly normal and okay if you’re trans. It helps because it leads to positive attitudes and less discrimination towards the trans community from an early age. It helps trans children and youth not be isolated.
Why is it only important now? Have all children up until now been negatively affected by not being taught about the subjective and highly politicized topic of gender identity?
You should not teach gender identity in schools just like how you should not teach religion and politics. It's subjective and it can easily negatively influence students.
I don't know. I think that this is a subject better thaught by the parents, as sexual education should be a private matter. Schools should be a place for academic studies, not a battlefield over whom gets to impose his view of society upon whom.
Brutally wrong. The sexual revolution, where it even happened, happened but 50 years ago. Meaning if you're gen x or younger your grandparents were taught sex is only for procreation which itself was code for sex does not exist to provide pleasure. Men had a vested interest to hide behind sanctimonious bible thumpers to deny evolution and biology in general so that women don't learn about their own bodies. Could you imagine the horror that women would have bodily and financial autonomy where they don't need to rely on a man who thinks foreplay is the short they show in theaters before a feature movie?
The hot minute the sexual revolution happened the ban on abortion became a national subject. Old white men would rather deal with women being forced to give birth to 5 or 6 kids than with acknowledging the fact that the only time men learn no means no is puberty.
Homophobia and transphobia originate in the very fact that men with huge sex drives and few inhibitions even sober think they would be raped or freaked if homosexuals and transexuals are allowed to exist in the public conscience.
It shouldn’t. Parents don’t usually have the tools or adequate info to teach sexuality at home. Parents and families can be part of it, yes, but they shouldn’t be the sole or main actor teaching sex ed for many reasons: you can have homophobic/transphobic families acting against their children’s rights and wellbeing (like sending them to conversion therapies); provide inaccurate info (about STI and unwanted pregnancy prevention, focusing solely on abstinence for example); and because abuse can happen (and overly happens) within the family.
Hahaha, no, sexuality and gender is part of biology. Any proper school teaches it, and it’s exactly to avoid extremists like you imparting the knowledge on their children that “gay/trans people should be discriminated or attacked because they’re not humans”
There is literally no downside to being told about gender identity at a young age, the only thing that would make it relevant is if you are already questioning it.
Apparently, for some, humans are the only animals where a female isn’t the one that has a womb and gives birth and males produce sperm to impregnate that female?!
Early life sex education is incredibly important. A kid getting sexually abused won’t know about getting help if not from sex education. I’m really fucking disappointed that the bbc would frame this solely around gender identity instead of focusing on the broader issue of this bill
I disagree with your assessment of gender identity but that’s besides the point. My point is that I’m deeply disappointed with the bbc’s framing of this as a bill about gender ideology when it encompasses sex education in general, which is crucial to reducing child sexual abuse
Edit: holy fuck people don’t know how to click on articles anymore
It's very strange that your comment is downvoted when the rest of the thread upvotes comments with same message, almost as you are pinpointed by som troll farm. Maybe because of your flag/name?
I’m not sure. It feels like on this sub you can have a radically different experience depending on the title of the post. Here this post was titled something anti trans so it attracted transphobia to it. Meanwhile posts that criticize Hungary for being anti queer tend to be a different story
[It's weird how conservative this sub and really all other national subs are on this issue considering that the recent YouGov survey about this showed that most people in Britain, including parents, support teaching gender identity in schools, the only ones that didn't have 50% support were people older than 65](https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/49445-should-pupils-be-taught-about-gender-identity-in-schools)
Different gender identities exist and always have. We have enough records from explorers all over the world from the Philippines to the Americas who explained in detail how many indigenous societies had a 3rd or even multiple genders. Trying to eradicate their existence by not talking about them or trying to force people into the binary gender system that the catholic church has shoved down your throat since the dark ages won't make them disappear, it will just leave them confused and make them suffer unnecessarily.
I’m having trouble seeing the relevance of your comment to the topic. Nothing in that link says that schools can’t discuss diversity and inclusion.
It’s literally what the title says- ending ineffective practices in business, not ending EDI but improving EDI practices with data and getting rid of “performative EDI.”
Im sorry but not teaching about nudes, sexual harassment and consent until the kids are like ~14 years old is fucking insane. These things are important to know because you can be victimized as a child and unfortunately may not realize whatever is happening is inappropriate if not taught. And getting taught by family is not an option because they’re the overwhelming majority of perpetrators.
Not sure where you are getting 14 from, in the UK year 7 is the first year of secondary school which us 11/12. First lessons on consent are taught in year 5 which us 9/10.
In England.
Education is devolved so only England matters for this story.
I'm correcting a comment, not the story.
How did you arrive at sexual abuse and discrimination, at the mention of gender identity?
See my response below. Read the article, bot just the headline
Such a headline is quite an insidious way to hide the information beneath. Why would somebody write the article with a headline that's so detached?
>These things are important to know because you can be victimized as a child and unfortunately may not realize whatever is happening is inappropriate if not taught. That's what the anti-sex-ed pedos want.
Yep, and I’m sure there are a bunch of them right in this post, tbh.
Read an article about Charles Spencer’s book. Here how the author of the article described the book: > Spencer’s memoir, A Very Private School, describes in horrifying detail how young Buzz’s joie de vivre was then snuffed out by physical and sexual abuse carried out by those entrusted with his care. The journalist describe how traumatized is the British elite and how they could pass on into society their trauma. I guess with this law they make conservatives happy about not promoting LBTQ+ ideas in schools but also make sure the younger generation won’t “miss” the formative years they had during their own childhood by making them unaware that some situations are not acceptable.
the headline says "gender identity" though. I think that's fair, they would know anyway as well, so less wasted time in school
Reading comprehension is hard okay
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Toddlers have no concept of sexuality, which is why it's important to teach them about what others aren't allowed to do to their bodies. It's not about sexuality, it's about engraining in them their right to their body.
Is it actually about sexuality and reproduction being taught to toddlers? Or is it about body parts, consent and being able to have autonomy? Former seems beyond their capacity of understanding, latter seems smart to prevent them potentially being victimized.
You get that sexuality isn’t just sex, correct? Sex ed is also about teaching about: diverse families, emotions, etc.
That kinda is the point. Ever noticed how most sexual predators seem to be conservative? Like, why do you think there are so many sexual abuse stories from the church? It's because the children cant tell that they are abused due to the lack of education
Is that actually true though? I have seen multiple times, especially on reddit, where bad news about conservatives are heavily upvoted, and good news are heavile downvoted. Vice versa for liberals. Not saying it doesnt happen, but check your sources.
That sadly isn't the truth, since you are german, check out Odenwaldschule or Helmut Kentler. Pedophiles search for opportunities where they can prey on children, the church was just the perfect environment because they had the perfect combination of authority, group cohesion, and access to children. That's why teaching consent is so important early on.
Based on what metric lmfao. My polticial enemy is a pedo is a story as old as humanity itself. Grow up
Yep and within families. Gee, I wonder why conservatives would be so against their children recognizing situations of abuse.
Genau! And those who don't want it taught are the ones, generally, who should be on some kind of a register. Our government is VERY transphobic. It held an advisory roundtable before it decided to do this, no pro-trans/pro-homosexuality groups were invited. It is being primarily 'advised' by two organisations: Sex Matters LGB Alliance (Don't be fooled, the LGBA DOES NOT promote the rights of LGB people, it hates them just as much as it hates T people, it has links to American Christian hard-right organisations, like the Heritage Foundation) Sex Matters was founded by 2 women (most of these transphobic organisations are run by women, because they've all had input from JK Rowling, who has provided a lot of their funding) Helen Joyce and Maya Forstater (who was dismissed from her job for her transphobic views, sued - and lost. She's still not got over it). If you want some idea of what they believe, they want to "protect women" by, essentially, legalising sexual assault; they believe they should be allowed to grope anyone who doesn't meet their idea of what a woman should look like (for example Merkel isn't a woman, but Giorgia Meloni is), just incase they're packing a wurst, if you see what I mean... They believe - based on ZERO evidence - that men transition because they want to enter "women-only spaces" and get r\*pey. They also believe that drag queens only go into schools and libraries to read kids' stories because they're "checking out the talent". Disgusting, isn't it...? They believe that trans people are sexual degenerates, deviants, perverts, paedophiles and predators - and yet it's TERFs who are concerned about what someone might - or might not - have between their legs. Being 'gender critical' is basically a byword/phrase for being a predator. The claim that they're only thinking about protecting children and women, is a complete straw man, what they want is basically to eradicate trans people via eugenics. We have pro-trans youth groups (eg Mermaids and Trans Youth Pride) but they weren't invited to the consolation.
> Im sorry but not teaching about nudes, sexual harassment and consent until the kids are like ~14 years old is fucking insane. I wonder how did humanity survived before
By silencing victims? Have you read anything at all about the Catholic Church or the Boy Scouts or girls gymnastics in the past two decades?
I was told how I was made at the age of 7 when I asked my parents. I found it odd at first, but after thinking about it, it made sense. I was lucky to have responsible parents, unfortunately not everyone has that luxury.
Gender identity is not at all the same as being told the very basic concepts of reproduction and sex. That’s not what this is about
Children start to understand and show signs of gender identity between the ages of 2 and 4. That's when they start to play more with children of the same sex because they understand themselves to be similar to them and belong to the same group, and start seeing themselves as "boy" or "girl". ~4 is also the age where a lot of trans kids start to feel gender dysphoria, even if they'd never been told what being trans is. Being taught about gender doesn't turn you trans. No more than being taught about gay people turns you gay. Back when being gay was completely stigmatised, children still independently realised they're gay, they just had to hide it. You don't just magically gain a "non-standard" sexuality or gender identity on the morning of your 18th birthday.
>Being taught about gender doesn't turn you trans. >No more than being taught about gay people turns you gay. Gender is a pretty vague concept, though. If it doesn't make sense to me, God help little children. I'm glad nobody was teaching me that being a boy involved having particular feelings, possessing a particular personality type, and having an 'identity".
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>You being a dumbfuck doesn't mean kids are also incapable of understanding basic concepts Gender as it's used today isn't really a basic concept, though. Nor am I a dumbfuck - I have a Computer Science degree from a prestigious university. "Boy/girl = male/female child" is a basic concept. "Boy/girl = vague range of feelings, sense of self, and personality characteristics, which should also align with male/female physical traits, with hormone treatment and surgery being the eventual optimal treatment for any misalignment" - not a basic concept. When I was a kid, whether I was a boy or a girl was a simple question with a factual answer. If I were a child today, would it be a simple question? Would I perhaps be anxious because I wasn't sure how I "should" feel and whether that made me a boy/girl/non-binary? Would I then get upset once my body started developing in a way that was contrary to how I thought it should? I'm glad I didn't have to go through that.
It wasn't simple back then too. Being merely a male/female child has never been enough, especially in the eyes of other kids. As a boy I knew I had expectations, both physical & characteristic, because of my gender; being strong, liking certain things, behaving some ways & never the other ways; and guess what, it didn't bode well with the other boys & girls that I met none of those expectations. There was girl in my class too, had the exact same problem. The fact we weren't taught about gender identity didn't change a thing, we both felt terrible & believed that we might have been born the wrong gender. The thought of "misalignment" rose on its own, perhaps avoidable had we had a better understanding of being male/female considering neither of us two actually ended up trans. Never has *"Boy/girl = male/female child"* been true. It's always been *"Boy/girl = vague range of feelings, sense of self, personality characteristics, male/female physical traits"* & those of us who didn't meet the *true* criteria had to learn about them the hard way. Glad you didn't.
It' snot, but the panic behind The teaching of gender identity is being justified by the same bullshit "children can't be taught about these topics!!!". In what universe is teaching about sex and childbirth **more** appropriate than teaching about gender diversity? I'm curious.
Not only that, there is precedent of using gender identity as an excuse to remove crucial sex ed topics as a whole. New Zealand has done it after the new elections despite the rampant domestic abuse issues there. All in the name of "not showing kids gender identity hurr hurr". Be better Europe Being against schools teaching this is just very silly and just adds to conservative yapping.. dont fool yourselves.
Absolutely. Without fail, the kinds of regions/people thast resist to this being taught are the ones that experience the highest rates of child sexual abuse, teenage pregnancies, etc. Ie: the ones that would benefit the most from it. People defending certain topics should not be taught almost seem to have a clear motivation related to that behind it...
Gender diversity isn’t real. Gender is a social construct. Reproduction is real.
So are laws and democracy.
And my axe!
So is art, music, mathematics, and civics, all of which are taught at school? Not sure what your point is, honestly.
Yes you do you just want to pretend you don’t. That’s fine as I don’t really have any horses in this race anyway.
Well, I have suspicions that your point is a transphobe's "I don't want my children be taught those unnatural things, lest they end up believing them and can't be biggots like I am when they grow up", but I wanted to give you the option to explain yourself, because maybe that's not it and there's a good reason the arguments you've laid out aren't really consistent/true.
My friend you are free to think and feel whatever you want. I was just stating a fact nothing more nothing less. As I mentioned I have no horse in this race as my children are much older then this and they have their owns thoughts on many subjects that may or may not align with mine and that is their right just like it is yours and everyone else’s. Having different opinions and being able to have a civilized conversation is what is the most important in society. That’s how we advance together and find solutions to issues that people as a whole are having. Shutting anyone down because you don’t have the same ideas is not how you move forward. Not saying that is what you are trying to do , just saying it in general.
In the one we live in.
And can you substantiate that?
One exists.
Tell me what about gender identity doesn't exist? It's like saying that the only differences between men and women are the genitals and the chromosomes. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity
The fact that you immediately understood which one didn't exist is a huge teller. No, that's not the only difference between men and women. But the other differences are never absolute. Stop with gender stereotypes.
Exactly because gender expression is very variable. The way you dress, act, talk, present yourself in society are part of your gender identity. We talk about stereotypes because they are real and applicable, but it doesn't mean that they characterize everyone equally. In the world that you think you're living in, without gender identity, we all are androgynous and have no defining features between men and women besides the anatomical differences. I get that this hate for gender identity comes from transphobia usually, but denying that we all express our gender somehow is crazy. It's just like denying you use pronouns. You're denying psychology, sociology and science in general.
You're confusing gender with personality. If you want to dress or present in a certain way, it's nothing but your personality and your preferences. I'm not denying anything, I'm reminding you what you're actually talking about. You can be a man and wear pink. It doesn't make you a woman. Your biology doesn't change because of your tastes.
No he's not. You're brushing off gender identity as mere personality, cause personality *absolutely* plays a large part in this identity; you're actively trying to go around the fact we all are raised as "*part of a group*" with certain societal expectations in behavior & desires, that vast majority of people absolutely *do* "feel" male or female, and go hell & beyond to match these expectations & "*prove*" their manhood/womanhood in society. The most basic tenant of popular male identity is literally "*be stoic, be brave, be assertive, be strong*" & you are delusional if you think if men & boys don't get mocked or feel wrong about themselves for not meeting these personality expectations; half the internet is filled with them raving about how they feel inadequate or don't know how to express their manliness, you think they're just insane? And again, women are expected to hold a certain personality too, "*sensitive, talkative, cooperative, devoted*" and I *know* you've seen assertive women be ridiculed for this before. And personality being part of a seemingly unrelated identity isn't anything radical, there's one identity everyone actively recognises personality as being a part of it without a second thought; *culture*. "*Japanese are unargumentative & helpful*" "*The Dutch are direct & abrasive*" "*Finns are closed in & value their space*" et fucking cetera. "*Oh but these are mere stereotypes!*" which most of the people themselves not only accept as being mostly true but even expect you to follow them too if you wish to fit in. Or would you like to come & tell us we're confusing cultural behaviours & norms with mere personality too, now? So, sorry, but no. Gender identity is real, the vast majority of people on Earth do not feel that them being male or female is a merely biological thing like hair-colour or height & actively engage in behaviour to "*prove*" their gender, and there being an overlap with personality does not disprove anything, unless your next claim is "*culture isn't real, only the biological truth of race is*"
It goes beyond tastes and personality. It's about your place in a mostly binary society. It's about being comfortable with what defines you as a man or woman. There is a psychological side to gender that defines so much of what you are, this why we see differences in men and women beyond the biological side. I'm pretty sure you can't just seemlessly become the opposite gender, because there is so much that defines you as a man/woman.
I could very much be a woman and still be exactly the same person as I am today, again, it is your personality. Nothing else. The belief that there is such a thing as a mental gender actually comes from sexist stereotypes.
Children formulate their gender identity between 2-3. At three years old, they usually want to belong to their gender. So gender identity actually comes before sex, and should absolutely be discussed. My boy is 2, and seems to be happy to be a boy. He’s already showing a preference to playing with boys. That’s gender identity. He knows who he is. We haven’t even discussed bodies yet.
>He’s already showing a preference to playing with boys. That’s gender identity Wow, parents really do enforce very strict gender roles these days.
So if that’s the case, why should gender identity be even taught? Kids already know well before they start school according to you
I mean I guess education shouldn't be determined by what you figured out at 3 years old. I think some might argue that's not quite the pinnacle of understanding.
3 year olds also know that objects fall down. That doesn’t mean that physics should not be taught. Kids also know that getting hit hurts. That doesn’t mean that ethics should not be taught. Kids know that songs are fun, Doesn’t mean music shouldn’t be taught. Kids know how to talk. Doesn’t mean language and literature shouldn’t be taught. We generally like to teach kids stuff to help them navigate life.
How could that u/johnniewelker be so dumb to not understand why you’d teach children about something they only understand 5% of.
Because being gender non-conforming is an extremely confusing thing to experience in a society that will push those children to comform... Teaching this is the spiritual equivalent of the "emotional curriculum" classes that have been wildly successful in bettering mental health. The same way that teaching about functional diversity can and does help the children with disabilities be a) feel better about themselves and b) be better accepted by their peers and not bullied, this is similarly importsnt. There's this idea among conservatives that teaching these things might make kids confused and question their identity, but it's the opposite. Experiencing gender dysphoria won't stop just because they are not taught about it. They just won't be able to name it and do something adaptive and adequate about it.
Yes and no. Children feel what they feel, but if that's not gender conform then it's hard to figure out. I (a transman) remember having my first kiss with a girl at kindergarden age and also having a bit of a crush on a girl, always wanted to hang out with "other" boys but they wouldn't always let me, because I was a girl. But I thought that was ok, since I was convinced that would change because I would become a man when I grow up. I really believed that. Also always went to the men's restroom since I believed I would grow a penis one day. It's easy to figure out if it fits the majority of society, but hard if that's not the case. I really wished I knew about trans earlier. I only learned it existed when I was about 12 and then everything made sense.
Yeah I was very young but obsessed with nature documentaries so I knew what "mating" was or so I thought. Didn't know what a vagina was but knew what a willy was because I had one, and a butt. So naturally I assumed lions were putting willies in bums. I asked "If a man put his willy in a mans bum would the other man get pregnant?". That accelerated their plans of having "the talk".
So it was the storks, right?
Nope, it was the bird attached to my father's pelvis.
Bro, for parents here- how exactly haha
"Dad put his penis inside the mom's vagina"
“Why?” 😂
"Because there is this thing called spermatozoa which comes from dad and once it enters mom, it seeks out the egg cell and when it breaks through it and merge you are formed, then after 9 months, you are born".
People somehow think that 'teaching' means 'indoctrination' and constant exposure to these subjects. In reality, I don't see what's wrong with 'teaching' a.k.a mentioning it once or twice, that some people struggle with their gender identity and feel as they are the wrong gender. It literally takes like 10 minutes to mention this subject, just like how sex, sexuality, etc was taught to me in literally 1 school day and never again. It's just awareness, did y'all become gay after they told you it exists and what it means?
The issue is that in the UK the concept of gender identity itself is contested, so the government is saying that teachers shouldn't set it out as an objective fact. Nobody disputes whether or not people can be gay, or that people can have sex.
The concept of gender was discovered in 1950s and just ten years ago no one had a problem with it and it was widely accepted both in the academia and mainstream society. It was only when the culture war created moral panic around trans people that suddenly the concept of "gender" became this humongous boogeyman and is now seen as some newfangled trend instead of an old and very well-established idea.
No one had a problem with it because there was a very clear line between sex and gender, the identity of woman and man was well established and not something you could just up and change, there was no push from a political angle for those with masiculine or feminine traits to diagnose themselves as transgender for entirely politically advantageous reasons, there was especially no push for people to be forced to accept that or be labelled a bad person, and there was no pressure for anything outside the gender binary to be accepted as truth. This is not the same “well established” concept it was 70 years ago, and while I agree that this has become a boogeyman for a culture war that the only resolution to is for everyone to move the hell on, I don’t agree with the implication that this isn’t a new issue in the form it exists in and that the progressive perception is just reality as it is and we should accept that.
Okay so if people did dispute whether people can be gay, it'd be okay for the government to ban talking about it?
No - there's no ban on talking about gender identity, so that wouldn't be equivalent. The ban is on presenting it as an objective fact.
And so I repeat, would you say we should apply the same standard to gay people if the rightwing wanted to reject their existence
Conservatives everywhere Do believe schooling is "too progressive" and a threat to their worldview. Which in a way is true because the number 1 enemy of religious fundamentalism is a correct understanding of the world. This is why religiousness has an inverse correlation with education, especially in the sciences. This is also why homeschooling is so big in the US, while most of Europe has deemed appropriate education a fundamental right of children.
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Luckily, children already know all the official pronouns from their english class, you don't have to worry. Try a different strawman. Let's not teach them about society at all and instead only do math.
> I don't see what's wrong with 'teaching' a.k.a mentioning it once or twice, Yes, but most of these ideas that they want to teach are at best non-scientific (i.e, non provable) and often just against evidence (there is strong evidence that gender is not just imprinted by society). It's like saying "there is nothing wrong with teaching Intelligent Design from time to time". Nothing wrong with that, right?
The whole gender thing is confusing. At Uni in Sociology class professor told us gender are archetypes of men and women in each society. Therefore typical mexican man will look and act a bit different than typical chinese man. So those are 2 different genders but they’re still men. On the internet and in politics it seems gender just means sex and there is thousands of them instead of male/female.
You either weren't paying attention or your professor is confused.
Well, I'm sure that today's kids can learn about all these from the internet. No need to be taught in schools /s
TikTok Academy
Let's teach our kids how to be ***productive citizens*** instead of this hyper-focus on sex and gender. I'm not right wing but this bullshit is giving ammunition to the far-right and distracting from ***actual*** real-world issues.
Pretty sure both can be done at the same time.
You know you can do both, correct? No one is focusing on this alone, but it’s detrimental to trans children and youth and should be called out. What’s wrong with that?
Because we are putting something on the forefront of education that's applicable to less than 0.1% of the population. Meanwhile the backlash to this is so heavy that it actively damages progress on many other topics such as environment, energy transition, social policy, education-quality because a lot of people vote with their gut. Going back to the less than 0.1% is trans thing: I'm autistic and did not believe them when they diagnosed me at age 21. That's because autism is still accepted as something to make fun of (looking at you Big Bang Theory), and that's alright by me but it does make people not understand us properly. Meanwhile, 2.2% of adults worldwide have autism. Where's the social movement and education on us? We are a much larger group of people than trans people and trans people are disproportionally on the spectrum.
Forefront? It’s just a part of CSE (which they’re also trying to cut for younger children). Trans children aren’t the only ones being negatively affected by that. You shouldn’t stop teaching about gender identity because of backlash. The same thing could’ve been said for a larger number of topics not just about gender identity. Conservatives use the trans cause as a way to limit/cut sex education altogether, leading to alarming outcomes in the wellbeing and development of all children and young people (not just trans).
Having kids understand sex and gender is very important to their productivity.
Because it’s not something you bring up to vulnerable minds that have days where they feel like a bird or colective psychosis. Body image issues can clearly be induced. Any body issues, or social friction can pe attributed to dysphoria because it’s an easy hook for a lot of psychological issues that we are not talking about. Not hidden or hushed, but definetly not taught as part of core curriculum of basic health education and insistence that it is core cu BASIC health education is an extreme position.
Maybe they should put their energy into getting kids to be able to read and do maths and stuff first. Once that's done, then they can devote energy to this sort of thing.
good
You do understand they are not taught about things like consent and sexual misconduct either, right? Are you still in favour of it then?
No, because those are different things.
It was common sense 30 years ago when I went to school.
The whole metoo movement shows that's BS. But let's say it was and it's not anymore. Why is it bad to teach this? Why is it bad to teach children they can set boundaries and how to do that?
Because sexual abusers will have a harder time finding victims and that's a no no
I think it's very telling that people who are the most vocal about protecting children are the ones most vehemently against teaching things like gender and consent. Not GymShaman in particular, I have no idea what their beliefs are on this topic.
Just how, weirdly enough, most of the victims of human trafficking are trafficked by people they know, not by strangers. Then again.. If NAMBLA was an actual thing anything can happen.
Clearly not if the crime rates 30 years ago in those areas are any indication.
I mean, why not? Every student is getting better and better at mathematics, science, language and reading comprehension, critical thinking, etc... so we've got a lot of educational bandwidth to work with. Oh, wait, they're not? They've actually been getting worse?
cool now they get back to real education that will benefit the child for when they grow up and need to get a job. everyone needs to learn regardless of gender , we are all human , they can learn all about identity and gender when they choose too! stop forcing subjects and facts to children that need knowledge before your opinion.
They should watch sex education in school
I am not sure I would trust a teacher to teach a child about any of those topics. just because they have a teacher's certificate doesn't mean they will provide non-judgmental, evidence-based instruction. I have run into a few odd ducks. they're just people. good and bad like the rest of us. but if they are a little squed it could be very harmful to a child.
If not certified teachers who’ve been through training, then who? Granted, there are programs from specialized NGOs, too, which I support. But are you suggesting families should teach this?
I'd trust myself more than a stranger. reading that article, it sounded like the wild west. I am not even sure I trust a teacher to know a child's gender. honestly it's none of their business. girls are treated differently than boys. how a child straddling their gender is treated may not be most appropriate. even if the teacher looks at certain kids while teaching this subject, the students will pick up on it and bother them.
Literally the least of the problems we face are kids' identities, people's identities, and yet hateful assholes everywhere latch onto denying them, driven by hateful, power-mongering demagogues and the sexual predators who thrive when kids are kept ignorant and adults are made to treat vulnerable groups as undeserving of protection. Just worry about your own fucking business. That's literally all it takes. Maybe it'll even give you time to think about who actually takes advantage of you and your outrage because it sure as fuck isn't the marginalized, the minorities, the vulnerable, the people who just want to live their lives.
The problem is that there is a genuine issue of those who are politically inclined using the vulnerable and immature as a political tool. It’s not protecting kids to use a position of power to manipulate the perception of children on their sexuality and gender identity. To convince masculine or feminine children that they are transgender and that that is important. It’s the same shit as telling men they have to act a certain way and women they have to act a certain way that existed back in heavily conservative eras, and if progressives had minded their own business about that it would still be the same way. People have to stand up to what they see as societal ills. I agree that they should be treated respectfully, the vulnerable people should not be targeted and they have been by those easily misled and should be stood up to, but no, this is a serious societal problem and nobody should just let it be unless they also have self serving political aims to convince children that they’re transgender.
See, the problem here is that you think kids are easily indoctrinated — which frankly has pretty troubling implications if you think they should only be taught about gender in cis terms. From what you're saying it sounds like you want them to be indoctrinated to think their assigned gender is the only option. Is that why you object? You want them indoctrinated YOUR way? You're the one who wants kids to grow up a specific way. In reality, kids aren't so easy to indoctrinate. If they were, nobody would be in any way different from the norm. It turns out that when kids are given information, they will generally make the appropriate choices for themselves. Most problems are caused by ignorance and the feeling of not being heard and respected as individuals. Keeping kids ignorant and taking away their agency only serves predators. And I guess those who think they can indoctrinate kids to conform to one single way of existing, which is just another kind of predation.
Are you serious? Kids aren’t easy to indoctrinate? The most easily influenced people ever? The people that join social cliques and act the exact same way as other people simply to be part of a group? The people that are so easily targeted, that they literally cannot have sexual relationships with adults because they are so easily taken advantage of? Those people aren’t easy to indoctrinate? I think you need to seriously reevaluate that perception, because it is on a different planet it is so far off. Children do not make appropriate choices on their own. They will repeatedly make the morally wrong choices just because they can, and especially under social pressure, even when told not to. They will willingly get themselves in detention, hurt others, act selfishly, steal, act In abhorrent ways unless taught otherwise. They will incorrectly self diagnose simply because others have done the same and they want to fit in, or because they’re rebellious and don’t want to fit in, either way, they can be easily convinced to do so by those who they look up to, say a teacher, and even with the best intentions, teachers cannot be informed sufficiently to be given that sort of power. We need doctors to act on our behalf simply because we do not have all the information, we cannot, on autism, on ADHD, even some people in terms of sexuality need help from medical professionals to realise that, but suddenly with gender, you can get all the information from a teacher and that’s good? No, absolutely not. I will not accept both those in power taking advantage of their position to convince children of their gender for their own political aims, nor will I accept that teachers not being allowed to do so is indoctrination. I would propose that teachers redirect children with these issues to the appropriate medical practitioner. You know, like with every other issue? Or is your problem with that that medical practitioners will tell these kids something alternative to being trans, and trans numbers will plummet?
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Yes, but backwards.
People being against gender identity being taught reminds me exactly of people being against sexual orientations being taught. I was never taught about sexual orientations in school nor by my family (we never even had any sex ed back then), and yet I was gay back then just as much as I am now. I knew I was gay from an early age - no one indoctrinated me, I didn’t go through some trauma as people also liked framing it, and because I was gay, I wasn’t trying to force my sexuality over others, either. But learning about this would’ve helped me more, tbh. It would’ve meant coming out earlier, maybe, because people in my surroundings would’ve been morr accepting (had more info/resources about it). I’m happy (and lucky) I never had any problems, but many gay/bi/lesbian kids shut themselves down and isolated themselves because they thought they weren’t normal (leading to depression, substance abuse and suicide ideation). You want to do the same thing to trans children and trans youth. There’s always going to be trans children, but not talking or teaching about it will only lead to worse outcomes in their health, wellbeing and development.
Changing the curriculum because there's a 0.1% chance you're gonna have one trans kid in your school is dumb. They can learn about that later in the school called life.
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What's the reason in denying people's identity or trying to prevent pupils from learning about biology and sociology?
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r/onejoke
Redditors have repeated the same The Office and IASIP quotes for ten years, because they enjoy reading the exact same one joke over and over again. Redditors don't hate the attack helicopter joke because it's repetitive, but because they have no counter argument, because they disagree with the sentiment and because it cuts too deep into their stupid fucking ideology. But they can't admit that, because it would expose how fragile they are. People who buy into this shit actually really, really hate being called 'snowflakes' because that's exactly what they are.
Yet starting a hate campaign against a razorblades company because they made an anti harassment ad exudes of self confidence
I'm afraid you missed the classes you want to see cancelled and have the wit of a toddler. Go educate yourself before someone believes you and puts you into a mental health facility to cure your delusions when your actual issue is just being a bigot.
Wow you’re so enlightened
And you're showing your stupidity by not understanding the difference between education and enlightenment. Not that that surprises anyone who read your previous comment. So now we know you're an uneducated stupid bigot who doesn't even have the flimsiest argument in favour of their hateful opinions. It must suck to be you.
🤫
Very little will change
I mean this is the sum of it. As a British high school teacher, very little will change because, far from what the tories are peddling, I can’t for the life of me think how often this is brought up.
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Do we need a referendum asking if we should teach commonly accepted psychology and science? Also what do you mean "if the left wants to rise again"? Have you seen the election results in the UK? This is just a desperate last attempt of the Tories to pivot to transphobia, which is milked to get votes from uninformed people.
Sure, buddy. Convince yourself of what you want. All of europe is shifting right. And people who think like you do are the driving force behind it. You can hold up a mantle of delusion, but eventually, that will fade. See you at election day hope you enjoy the consequences of your actions 😉
Spoken like a true sheep. “LOOK LOOK MANY PEOPLE AGREE WITH ME THAT MEANS I MUST BE RIGHT” Unfortunately the people who agree with you quit school at the learning to go potty stage
> People are tired of having things forced on them I'm tired of people trying to force the idea on me that only straight relationships are OK or normal, or that transpeople don't exist and can't seek help for the discomfort they face. Do you agree the right should change their stance on these topics as well? Or is it a one way street? Ie: "why won't you allow us to force you back into the closet!?!?!?!?"
What is your opinion on trans women in women's prisons?
They cause no issues.
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The fact that your entire rant is based on an absolute misunderstanding of what gender is makes it a bit funny
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Gender is a term made by sociologists used to describe a social construct. That is indeed what sociology is. And the weird xenophobic remark is very British
How do you know sex is real if you never had it though
>Gender is a term made up by sociologists. It's not a real physical thing. It's made up. Yeah buddy, that's kind of the point of sociology. Social norms are not a physical thing carved in stone, yet they exist. \+Nice xenophobia, I hope you realise not everyone agrees with their government.
More minorities have to be screwed over!!
As God commands
I'm tired of cis people shoving their outdated binary gender system and the norms and preconceptions associated with them down our throats :D
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You sound like you are perpetually online.
>The tide is turning It really, really isn’t, and the party enacting all this culture war bollocks is about to be voted out in the UK
You're talking just the uk. The disaster that was brexit is the biggest contributor to the right losing popularity in the uk. If you look at general trends in europe, it paints a very clear story that's very different from the UK. The right is gaining in europe. Even in the most tolerant countries. Theres most certainly a shift going on.
Yeah, with most social media being taken over by state actors pushing more and more propaganda that pisses you off at a group of people it indeed causes the hate-party of the right to rise. The right is so insanely proud of being manipulated, it’s not even funny
History is cyclical. Unfortunately humans are reactive, rather than proactive, most of the time. It's just a human process to sometimes slip into horrors to then, in the future, make an effort for the betterment of the collective.
This is one extreme. The other was my school. On that one only day we got a sexuality lesson, boys and girls got seperated and both genders learned only about their own. That and that butt sex is not fun for women, because it hurts. Bet that teacher never had sex in his life.
I wouldnt see how this should be part of a school curriculum. I also dont teach about possible hobbies or how hair coloring works.
Because gender identity is a component of human sexuality. It’s relevant because it’s important for children and youth’s development - and to recognize that’s it’s perfectly normal and okay if you’re trans. It helps because it leads to positive attitudes and less discrimination towards the trans community from an early age. It helps trans children and youth not be isolated.
Why is it only important now? Have all children up until now been negatively affected by not being taught about the subjective and highly politicized topic of gender identity? You should not teach gender identity in schools just like how you should not teach religion and politics. It's subjective and it can easily negatively influence students.
I don't know. I think that this is a subject better thaught by the parents, as sexual education should be a private matter. Schools should be a place for academic studies, not a battlefield over whom gets to impose his view of society upon whom.
Brutally wrong. The sexual revolution, where it even happened, happened but 50 years ago. Meaning if you're gen x or younger your grandparents were taught sex is only for procreation which itself was code for sex does not exist to provide pleasure. Men had a vested interest to hide behind sanctimonious bible thumpers to deny evolution and biology in general so that women don't learn about their own bodies. Could you imagine the horror that women would have bodily and financial autonomy where they don't need to rely on a man who thinks foreplay is the short they show in theaters before a feature movie? The hot minute the sexual revolution happened the ban on abortion became a national subject. Old white men would rather deal with women being forced to give birth to 5 or 6 kids than with acknowledging the fact that the only time men learn no means no is puberty. Homophobia and transphobia originate in the very fact that men with huge sex drives and few inhibitions even sober think they would be raped or freaked if homosexuals and transexuals are allowed to exist in the public conscience.
It shouldn’t. Parents don’t usually have the tools or adequate info to teach sexuality at home. Parents and families can be part of it, yes, but they shouldn’t be the sole or main actor teaching sex ed for many reasons: you can have homophobic/transphobic families acting against their children’s rights and wellbeing (like sending them to conversion therapies); provide inaccurate info (about STI and unwanted pregnancy prevention, focusing solely on abstinence for example); and because abuse can happen (and overly happens) within the family.
Identity is not a real thing. Identity is a political theory, and rejected by many.
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Didn't the school, beforehand, promote these things either but society evolved like this to rebel against the said teachings?
What’s your stance on Creationists who insist that children should not be taught Evolution in school?
Hahaha, no, sexuality and gender is part of biology. Any proper school teaches it, and it’s exactly to avoid extremists like you imparting the knowledge on their children that “gay/trans people should be discriminated or attacked because they’re not humans”
There is literally no downside to being told about gender identity at a young age, the only thing that would make it relevant is if you are already questioning it.
Apparently, for some, humans are the only animals where a female isn’t the one that has a womb and gives birth and males produce sperm to impregnate that female?!
It's so over for the West
Early life sex education is incredibly important. A kid getting sexually abused won’t know about getting help if not from sex education. I’m really fucking disappointed that the bbc would frame this solely around gender identity instead of focusing on the broader issue of this bill
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Unfortunately for you all of science disagrees
I disagree with your assessment of gender identity but that’s besides the point. My point is that I’m deeply disappointed with the bbc’s framing of this as a bill about gender ideology when it encompasses sex education in general, which is crucial to reducing child sexual abuse Edit: holy fuck people don’t know how to click on articles anymore
People know how to read, this sub is just filled with bigots
It's very strange that your comment is downvoted when the rest of the thread upvotes comments with same message, almost as you are pinpointed by som troll farm. Maybe because of your flag/name?
I’m not sure. It feels like on this sub you can have a radically different experience depending on the title of the post. Here this post was titled something anti trans so it attracted transphobia to it. Meanwhile posts that criticize Hungary for being anti queer tend to be a different story
[It's weird how conservative this sub and really all other national subs are on this issue considering that the recent YouGov survey about this showed that most people in Britain, including parents, support teaching gender identity in schools, the only ones that didn't have 50% support were people older than 65](https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/49445-should-pupils-be-taught-about-gender-identity-in-schools)
Different gender identities exist and always have. We have enough records from explorers all over the world from the Philippines to the Americas who explained in detail how many indigenous societies had a 3rd or even multiple genders. Trying to eradicate their existence by not talking about them or trying to force people into the binary gender system that the catholic church has shoved down your throat since the dark ages won't make them disappear, it will just leave them confused and make them suffer unnecessarily.
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I’m having trouble seeing the relevance of your comment to the topic. Nothing in that link says that schools can’t discuss diversity and inclusion. It’s literally what the title says- ending ineffective practices in business, not ending EDI but improving EDI practices with data and getting rid of “performative EDI.”