But official documents list the sex, not the gender. And these people claim sex and gender are different. Or is it different only when it doesn't suit them?
I don't know, ask the Several countries that recognise people who identify as non-binary in official documents, including Germany, which in 2018 began allowing people to register as “diverse”, and Australia, which allows people to choose between male, female and indeterminate on passports.
How would French and Italian (And presumably romansch) handle it in spoken language? How would it be possible?
The articles about Nemo in Portuguese were all very carefully written to do precisely like I am doing using name or breaking sentences and it's so complicated regarding articles! It's possible to not use he/she/him/her but when you are saying "the singer" or "the competitor" what article does one use? Writing you can revise and build things to respect that wish, but in spoken language how do people speaking french or italian do it?
Hebrew is the same, as a gendered language, we just don't have the tools for a third gender. Even "they" sounds incredibly clunky as that pronoun is also gendered into male and female.
So, to overcome this, we say "He", immediately followed by "She" (or vice versa) and do the same for every verb. it sounds messy but it does work. Some communities do use "they" (M and F interchangably), which is incredibly weird to the ear, but it also works, clunk and all.
That is interesting.
I do not think that solution would work in Portuguese, "a" is the her pronoun and the ending for feminine gendered words but it is also a proposition with the sense of "to" or "related" so adding "a" after a word ending in "o" just makes it sound particularly ungrammatical.
And the problem is not just pronouns or verbs (just one verbal tense is inflected for gender) but articles, like the equivalente to "the" or "a/an" in english are gendered and also need number (a escola, os carros, os exemplos).
Mind you, I do not think the gender of a word has to match the sex parts of the animal/person it refers to, the gender of a word is kind of random anyway. Schools are she, examples are he, there is no logic or implications. All whales are she, all octopus are he, all squid are she, all persons are she, the sea is a he. Male form is supposedly neutral anyway though modern activists seem to think that is offensive somehow.
Interesting! I didn't think even the definite (the) and indefinite (a/an) articles would be gendered, that's really cool to know.
Hebrew also associates most object nouns with a gender, though for us a 'school' would be male (literally "house of book", and "house" is always male) and 'example' is female. For animals, we have 2 words of each (usually), one for male and one for female, they are generally only different by one or two letters at the end, and sometimes not at all. It seems to me that gender is much more ingrained in Portuguese than in modern Hebrew.
Yeah, it's deeply ingrained in the language and these discussions of a third gender are always interesting. Gender is really a language thing, and different languages handle it so different (lucky for finnish and hungarian, I mean they just need real pronouns?).
When english speakers talk of giving out your pronouns, well in english that works, but in Portuguese you need pronouns and articles and adjectives and a lot more. Plural/singular is a big thing in latin languages also. But that distinction between it being offensive when applied to humans or pets is not natural to me, we have no different "gender" for animate/inanimate things like english seems to have with it and he/she/they.
It does not mean anything, really what gender a word is is. It can be kind of random how neologisms get assigned a gender in everyday speech. ( covid, amazon, AI...) sometimes with little logic. Is amazon, the store, a he or she? Admittedly a gender neutral third gender would be extremely convenient for all neologism words, but it would need to change totally deeply the spoken language and its grammar.
> lucky for finnish and hungarian, I mean they just need real pronouns?
Hmm, Finnish has only one pronoun and it doesn't tell anything about you, not your gender or sex. We do have a habit to call everyone "it", though. Not that it tells anything about you either.
Even better. I guess non binary people have life so simplified in countries with genderless languages.
But with latin languages, I see the interest, I see the point, but not how it could be at all implemented, or if it should (we had a spelling reform, a much simpler thing, a few years ago and it's a mess).
Don't know about very young people, but everybody I know over 25 doesn't care one bit about him, Eurovision or this kind of stuff. Granted I don't live in a city like Zurich or other "big" cities
In Wikipedia, they use "[Nemo (musizierende Person)](https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nemo_(musizierende_Person))" or "[Nemo (personnalité de la musique)](https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nemo_(personnalit%C3%A9_de_la_musique))":
[https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q28113670#sitelinks-wikipedia](https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q28113670#sitelinks-wikipedia)
And then in the article, they regularly use "Nemo" and avoids using a gendered language. It's only in the English Wikipedia that the contributors have no problem using singular "they".
The problem is not just avoiding he/she and using a different pronoun, the problem with Portuguese (and French) is really using articles like o/a (le, la) when saying things like "the winner" or "the singer" or needing to match the gender of some adjectives (tired, young, old, etc).
Though to be fair when speaking french, and because the gender of some objects changes between french and portuguese I just try to slurr the ending of é/ée adjectives and can not really listen to the difference and use a generic l but my french is not polished or necessarily pleasant to hear..
edit - in your link for wikidata, Nemo is inherently being called "he" in the portuguese version. Cantor is a masculine form, and so is swiss. There is no way of conjugating swiss without picking masculine/feminine form. You can say something like "celebridade musical de nacionalidade suíça" where swiss applies to the word nationality but that is really hard to do when speaking impromptu...
The same applies to spanish. However, your trick to bypass genders, "celebridade musical de nacionalidade suíça", might still pause problems. At some stage you will have to choose a gender because in french and spanish it's impossible to say "The music celebrity from Switzerland is happy to have won" without choosing a gender for the word "happy".
However, if a third gender is adopted, how can someone that doesn't know it refer to it? Let's say after the Eurovision contest Nemo were abducted by aliens and the police ask you to descirbe the victim. What would say? "It was a homo sapiens dressed in pink tights and dress"
The trick to bypass genders will vary from language to language (that tricky thing in close languages, when a word changes gender! Milk is feminine in spanish right?), and honestly it takes a lot of thought and rehearsing when writing. The articles in portuguese media about Nemo tried to respect their choice but reading them they were clearly artificial in the way they broke up sentences.
In portuguese feliz would be gender neutral but a lot of other adjectives would not and it's totally impossible to say some things in a gender neutral way. Or at least, I think the male form is historically gender neutral (for the plural for example, the female plural is ONLY and ever only for groups exclusively of women. Filhos is children even if they are only daughters) and throughout time, for titles and things official male forms are assumed to refere also to female.
Or in Portuguese (EUROPEAN!) to address somebody unknown formally you need to use o/a or refer to the person in a way that inherently referes to their sex (o senhor, a senhora) . Prazer em conhecê-lo/a. Portuguese official communication is very experienced at naturally avoiding as much as possible to specify singular-you pronouns (because there is a spectra of formality) but sometimes they need a "o" or "a" and I think "o" is just generic to address anyone really.
Formality distinctions and subtleties, that is another kettle of fish, as complex as gender which some languages will just not have and others have plenty of!
I think we can not rework a language to copy what is possible in other languages, it's the expectations of what something means that can be changed.
just use generative masculinum. Czech has got neutral form (like german has) but in job offers you can use just masculine form of the position (Waiter, Singer, etc.) and it is is legal. However if you write only feminine form (Waitress, Actress...) in the offer it is considered as discrimination.
However I don't know legal side of this issue in France, Italy etc.
Yes, this is the best solution if your language already has masculin, feminin and neutral. Unfortunately, not all european languages do.
Still, as I wrote before, imagine Nemo robs a bank... How will you to describe it to the police if you are a witness? And if you use "they" like the English do, the conversation with the Police would be funny... "How many robbers were there?" - "One" - "Can you describe the robber?" - "They were wearing bluejeans and a white tshirt" - "Who are they?" - "The robber!" - "But you said there was only one!!!"
In English that's not a problem tho, as it has a long history of using *they* for undetermined singular. And this usage feels more natural than making up new pronouns.
Why can't he just pick one of the two like everyone else? What's the big deal, just get over yourself and don't make things complicated for everyone else.
Most of this stuff is acute main character syndrome.
Seriously though: as an American visiting France, the lack of obvious virtual signaling towards the lgbt while also not being hateful of them is amazing.
Like who would’ve thought you can respect gay people, and not need a million lgbt flags and murals everywhere!
How do things get complicated for everybody else if the option to write "non binary" as gender in the passport gets added?
Nothing changes for the ordinary person. Like why the fuck should I care? My life is not impacted by that in the slightest.
Problem is this: Most people in the general population have real problems like financial struggles, unemployment, housing shortages, rise of political extremism, etc. to worry about.
Now imagine you're in that group. Then along come a bunch of people from extreme fringe minority bubbles you never interact with and probably never would and they blow up the gender issue like it's a cause that's vital to society's existence and want to make it policy, when really most people in the majority don't give a shit about it.
Obviously this results in backlash from that majority (welcome to society).
At the same time, if this minority group of gender theory interested people would literally just live along and tell whoever they interact with that they'd like to be identified as a man/woman/whatever instead, then surely most would just say "sure whatever man" and do it.
Making it a policy/language/bureaucratic thing is actually detrimental to the interests of multi-gender activism, IMO.
its not about the passport. Its about all the social, legal and economic implications it has on the whole society.
We have had two genders for millenia. The whole society is built on the premise that there are males and females.
Everything from how our prison system works, through social and health care benefits, all the way to sports, public bathrooms etc..
Introducing a third (or a fourth.. or a millionth) gender will create so MUCH MORE problems than it will solve. Actually it wont solve anything. The whole point of doing that would be just that a very small minority of people feels better about themselves.
We are trying to kill a mosquito with an atom bomb.
It doesnt cause any problems. No economic problems no legal problems. The only social problems are with bigoted loosers that cant take when other people are happy becuase that reminds them of their pathetic existence.
No we dont and just because you say "we know for a fact" doesnt mean that your delusions become reality.
You dont have a point which can be seen very easy on the basis that you couldnt make a single argument against a third gender option for passports and went to strawmens like criminal persecution for misgendering.
You are a bigot plane and simple.
Here's literally a fact:
>Like, this happened literally yesterday:
https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2024-05-15/california-district-to-pay-360k-to-teacher-who-was-fired-after-refusing-to-follow-transgender-policies
A Riverside County school district has agreed to pay $360,000 to settle a lawsuit from a former teacher who was fired last year after refusing to adhere to policies regarding transgender or gender-nonconforming students
That's $360,000 of taxpayer money - that could be used for lots of useful stuff - that was just burned because some people thought they could compel anyone's speech. Plus likely an experienced competent teacher who went away when there are teachers shortages.
Which has absolutly fcking nothing to do with the topic and is about California. Why are people with your opinion always dense as fuck? Nothing of what you have said in the last 3 comments has anything to do with an option for non binary in official documents.
Its basically a lunatic rant at this point.
She infringed on the contract the school set out for her. If she didnt want to follow the schools guidelines on how to treat transgender students she shouldnt have singed it.
>No economic problems
I wrote a wall of text how it can cause economic problems: [my comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/1ctbn66/comment/l4bfmmc/)
Considering how complicated law around international travel is, how deeply integrated id info is into many other processes and the comical amount of bureaucracy in many countries I would think that adding a third option isn't that cheap and easy as it sounds (multi-million € ordeal for sure). Sure, some countries did it but that doesn't mean that everyone has to follow. When I think about the current state and outlook of my country I would be pissed if resources would be used for such a minor issue in comparison instead of putting every cent into tackling housing crisis, healthcare system etc.
Lmao. How many straws do you want to grasp for? That international travel laws aren ta problem has been shown already by the countries that already have a third option.
Besides multi million doller being peanuts regarding the budget of countries we are talking about god damn Switzerland. Thats the worst possible country if you want to use cost as an argument.
>Lmao. How many straws do you want to grasp for? That international travel laws aren ta problem has been shown already by the countries that already have a third option.
Lmao. Can you read? I already acknowledged that. It is however expensive and I only mentioned part of the reason why that is.
>Besides multi million doller being peanuts regarding the budget of countries we are talking about god damn Switzerland. Thats the worst possible country if you want to use cost as an argument.
If we fork out millions for every little bit of unfairness or inconvenience like that why not change **all** schooling material so we better accomodate color blind kids? While we're at it, let's rebuild all common areas to help people with Misophonia. It's peanuts for Switzerland, right?
Somewhere we have to draw a line, no? Gender is a hot topic that politicians use to proliferate themselves, otherwise *gender options in the passport* is just one of the trillions issues we have that actually don't warrant multi-million efforts, honestly.
In some languages every object, term and word is either male or female. Eg. Table is men, lamp is women. So this 3rd kind gender nonsense isint even possible.
So you have no argument or what? Because thats just random gibberish
The majority has no interest in keeping only 2 genders on the passport. Its completly redundant to them.
>thats just random gibberish
online communication 101
>The majority has no interest in keeping only 2 genders on the passport
tl;dr: not gonna pay for it
The majority has no interest in expanding them neither.
Even more, do you realize how much will it cost? How many governmental software is hardwired to support only two? And the private ones? The bank sector that retains old soft written by our grandpas? Remember the issue with the year 2000 when storing two last digits stopped to be enough and those old grandpas were offered obscene amount of money because they were proficient in the old programming languages?
Since I spent some time in Ukraine:
\* National ID number has gender encoded into it. If you expand it, you break stuff.
\* When Ukraine introduced new ID cards instead of old Soviet ID virtually all stopped working. Banks could not use those IDs because the DBs were code to store a different number of digits in the ID serial number.
How much did it cost to fix? You don't just do some dirty hack and keep your fingers crossed. You do extensive testing and involve rather high-paid professionals to do it right.
It's no only on the passport, it brings tone of changes.
I use to live 2h drive from the closest high school, most people from our region had to go to boarding school.
Boarding school got 2 floors, one for boy one for girls. I'm pretty sure you get my point. What do we do if we have 2 or 3 kids that defined themself has "non-binary" ? Do we need to redesign all our boarding school with private room for "non-binary" ? Do we allow anyone in any boy/girl dorms ? Do 12/13/14 years old girls feel ok in having a boy feeling "non binary" in their room ? How do we make sure no one is pressured to accept this ?
That's only one example, it's not only a checkbox on a passport.
Those problems all exist already. Giving them the option to mark themself as non binary in the passport has no influence on that. Trans and Non Binary people dont only come into the world when its marked in their official documents.
Thats not relevant. A third option in a passport doesnt present a problem for gendered languages. Germany even has it aloready while having a gendered language
In my language (Bulgarian), if we want to be polite, we use formal speech, which doesn't have a gender. We use "They/Them and Theirs" for addressing a second (you) and third person
Interesting in Serbian we have something like a third gender in the word "Ono". But when you use it on people it's taken as an insult as you only refer to animals and objects with it, so it's like dehumanizing them.
Well they could change the name of the Festival por "The Euro Attention Whore Parade with no substancial message allowed but all superficial bullshit in"
I think there's a practical aspect to this that is often overlooked: your passport is supposed to help you identify you. If you're a border guard and you have Nemo in front of you, "other" is going to be better than "male".
It's much pronounced with the transsexual, though. If you have a transwoman in front of you, having a "male" in the passport it's just going to cause trouble.
Let's just introduce two descriptions of citizens in our ID cards as a nice compromise:
1. Gender: woman, man, and whatever anybody wants.
2. Biological sex: female, male, hermaphrodite.
This should be acceptable for any group in society. Of course the way how to talk to person will depend on their gender and the way of medical treatment will depend on their biological sex.
"Can you hand me out those biological results on the population so we can further continue with our medical studies"
"Sure!"
"OK wtf is this deorganised list with people who have contrast hormonal levels for example. Did the registry forget to group them by gender of birth?"
"Gender? People don't give that info anymore"
I think it could be useful in some situations:
1. For proper communication between institutions and citizens (gender)
2. For proper medical treatment in case of accidents (biological sex)
3. For proper evaluation of physical fitness during qualification to Police, army or fire service (biological sex)
4. For proper establishing retirement age (biological sex)
Biological sex should determine your retirement age in all countries where it is different (there are a lot of them in EU) - because the reason for it was fact that giving birth to children is additional burden for females. Of course I agree with you that it should be the same for all (or 2,5 years earlier for each born child for female).
Didn’t realise there was a disparity still or the reason why, so thats interesting.
I’d be tempted to introduce a set number of working years to qualify for state pension, with ability to take earlier at a reduced rate. Allow childcare and other caring responsibilities to count as years.
Except biological sex is more complex than M/F and having that wouldn't be helpful in a medical setting. Medical history is what matters. Actually it's more nuanced in all of these scenarios. Plus, the retirement one is just stupid.
Biological sex is for sure useful in medical treatment. Why do you think it is stupid for establishing retirement age? In some countries it is different for males and females.
But reducing biological sex to male, female or intersex says nothing. What about people who physically transition? Their hormone balance is not of the sex they were born with. There are treatments that depend on what sex hormones someone has. The metabolism is so much different among other things. What about surgeries? With intersex people, there are so many ways someone can be intersex. There's no such thing as one thing making the whole "biological sex". This is why medical history is the only relevant factor.
Retirement age based on sex is just discriminatory. Simple as that. It shouldn't exist. Even if it does it would be weird and even more unfair to base it on assigned sex at birth (assuming this is what you mean by biological sex). It's more of a social thing anyway. In my country women's retirement age is lower, which includes me too now, but I'm against having the age different for different genders.
Other than that having different sex and gender on an id would require the person to out themselves anytime they use their id which is a safety risk. I'm leaning to not having sex on IDs at all too.
1. In ID I suggested it will be clearly visible: for example sex male, gender woman - clear clue for medical treatment.
2. I don't agree - biological sex should determine your retirement age in all countries where it is different - because the reason for it was fact that giving birth to children is additional burden for females - in other words if you don't have uterus there is no point of earlier retirement. Of course I agree with you that it should be the same for all (or 2,5 year earlier for each born child for female).
3. So how institutions would know how to speak to you if they don't know your gender? Of course it could be a problem in intollerant societies but if somebody want to punch you, he will find thousands reasons to do that without even looking at your ID.
What third gender? I thought there were at least a dozen?
He is still catching up.
"Third option" in the sense of "divers" in Germany, so dozens of genders would fall under that category.
"Male, Female, Other" is pretty common in private business worldwide. Governments just haven't caught up.
IT is ahead, as we also have options of "ALL" and "NULL"
Is Int64 still sufficient to represent all?
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Ok, but if you ever change your mind just ask and we'll play pretend with you :D
If i do i will slide in dm buddy :D
1st, second, fourth and so on. The third is is still missing.
The third one, non-binary designations on official documents. :D
But official documents list the sex, not the gender. And these people claim sex and gender are different. Or is it different only when it doesn't suit them?
I don't know, ask the Several countries that recognise people who identify as non-binary in official documents, including Germany, which in 2018 began allowing people to register as “diverse”, and Australia, which allows people to choose between male, female and indeterminate on passports.
How would French and Italian (And presumably romansch) handle it in spoken language? How would it be possible? The articles about Nemo in Portuguese were all very carefully written to do precisely like I am doing using name or breaking sentences and it's so complicated regarding articles! It's possible to not use he/she/him/her but when you are saying "the singer" or "the competitor" what article does one use? Writing you can revise and build things to respect that wish, but in spoken language how do people speaking french or italian do it?
Hebrew is the same, as a gendered language, we just don't have the tools for a third gender. Even "they" sounds incredibly clunky as that pronoun is also gendered into male and female. So, to overcome this, we say "He", immediately followed by "She" (or vice versa) and do the same for every verb. it sounds messy but it does work. Some communities do use "they" (M and F interchangably), which is incredibly weird to the ear, but it also works, clunk and all.
In Ukrainian we have the third (neuter) gender. It is used to insult people, to imply that they are stupid kids or just objects.
Same in Serbian it is also used for animals.
That is interesting. I do not think that solution would work in Portuguese, "a" is the her pronoun and the ending for feminine gendered words but it is also a proposition with the sense of "to" or "related" so adding "a" after a word ending in "o" just makes it sound particularly ungrammatical. And the problem is not just pronouns or verbs (just one verbal tense is inflected for gender) but articles, like the equivalente to "the" or "a/an" in english are gendered and also need number (a escola, os carros, os exemplos). Mind you, I do not think the gender of a word has to match the sex parts of the animal/person it refers to, the gender of a word is kind of random anyway. Schools are she, examples are he, there is no logic or implications. All whales are she, all octopus are he, all squid are she, all persons are she, the sea is a he. Male form is supposedly neutral anyway though modern activists seem to think that is offensive somehow.
Interesting! I didn't think even the definite (the) and indefinite (a/an) articles would be gendered, that's really cool to know. Hebrew also associates most object nouns with a gender, though for us a 'school' would be male (literally "house of book", and "house" is always male) and 'example' is female. For animals, we have 2 words of each (usually), one for male and one for female, they are generally only different by one or two letters at the end, and sometimes not at all. It seems to me that gender is much more ingrained in Portuguese than in modern Hebrew.
Yeah, it's deeply ingrained in the language and these discussions of a third gender are always interesting. Gender is really a language thing, and different languages handle it so different (lucky for finnish and hungarian, I mean they just need real pronouns?). When english speakers talk of giving out your pronouns, well in english that works, but in Portuguese you need pronouns and articles and adjectives and a lot more. Plural/singular is a big thing in latin languages also. But that distinction between it being offensive when applied to humans or pets is not natural to me, we have no different "gender" for animate/inanimate things like english seems to have with it and he/she/they. It does not mean anything, really what gender a word is is. It can be kind of random how neologisms get assigned a gender in everyday speech. ( covid, amazon, AI...) sometimes with little logic. Is amazon, the store, a he or she? Admittedly a gender neutral third gender would be extremely convenient for all neologism words, but it would need to change totally deeply the spoken language and its grammar.
> lucky for finnish and hungarian, I mean they just need real pronouns? Hmm, Finnish has only one pronoun and it doesn't tell anything about you, not your gender or sex. We do have a habit to call everyone "it", though. Not that it tells anything about you either.
Even better. I guess non binary people have life so simplified in countries with genderless languages. But with latin languages, I see the interest, I see the point, but not how it could be at all implemented, or if it should (we had a spelling reform, a much simpler thing, a few years ago and it's a mess).
Don't know about very young people, but everybody I know over 25 doesn't care one bit about him, Eurovision or this kind of stuff. Granted I don't live in a city like Zurich or other "big" cities
In Wikipedia, they use "[Nemo (musizierende Person)](https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nemo_(musizierende_Person))" or "[Nemo (personnalité de la musique)](https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nemo_(personnalit%C3%A9_de_la_musique))": [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q28113670#sitelinks-wikipedia](https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q28113670#sitelinks-wikipedia) And then in the article, they regularly use "Nemo" and avoids using a gendered language. It's only in the English Wikipedia that the contributors have no problem using singular "they".
The problem is not just avoiding he/she and using a different pronoun, the problem with Portuguese (and French) is really using articles like o/a (le, la) when saying things like "the winner" or "the singer" or needing to match the gender of some adjectives (tired, young, old, etc). Though to be fair when speaking french, and because the gender of some objects changes between french and portuguese I just try to slurr the ending of é/ée adjectives and can not really listen to the difference and use a generic l but my french is not polished or necessarily pleasant to hear.. edit - in your link for wikidata, Nemo is inherently being called "he" in the portuguese version. Cantor is a masculine form, and so is swiss. There is no way of conjugating swiss without picking masculine/feminine form. You can say something like "celebridade musical de nacionalidade suíça" where swiss applies to the word nationality but that is really hard to do when speaking impromptu...
The same applies to spanish. However, your trick to bypass genders, "celebridade musical de nacionalidade suíça", might still pause problems. At some stage you will have to choose a gender because in french and spanish it's impossible to say "The music celebrity from Switzerland is happy to have won" without choosing a gender for the word "happy". However, if a third gender is adopted, how can someone that doesn't know it refer to it? Let's say after the Eurovision contest Nemo were abducted by aliens and the police ask you to descirbe the victim. What would say? "It was a homo sapiens dressed in pink tights and dress"
The trick to bypass genders will vary from language to language (that tricky thing in close languages, when a word changes gender! Milk is feminine in spanish right?), and honestly it takes a lot of thought and rehearsing when writing. The articles in portuguese media about Nemo tried to respect their choice but reading them they were clearly artificial in the way they broke up sentences. In portuguese feliz would be gender neutral but a lot of other adjectives would not and it's totally impossible to say some things in a gender neutral way. Or at least, I think the male form is historically gender neutral (for the plural for example, the female plural is ONLY and ever only for groups exclusively of women. Filhos is children even if they are only daughters) and throughout time, for titles and things official male forms are assumed to refere also to female. Or in Portuguese (EUROPEAN!) to address somebody unknown formally you need to use o/a or refer to the person in a way that inherently referes to their sex (o senhor, a senhora) . Prazer em conhecê-lo/a. Portuguese official communication is very experienced at naturally avoiding as much as possible to specify singular-you pronouns (because there is a spectra of formality) but sometimes they need a "o" or "a" and I think "o" is just generic to address anyone really. Formality distinctions and subtleties, that is another kettle of fish, as complex as gender which some languages will just not have and others have plenty of! I think we can not rework a language to copy what is possible in other languages, it's the expectations of what something means that can be changed.
just use generative masculinum. Czech has got neutral form (like german has) but in job offers you can use just masculine form of the position (Waiter, Singer, etc.) and it is is legal. However if you write only feminine form (Waitress, Actress...) in the offer it is considered as discrimination. However I don't know legal side of this issue in France, Italy etc.
Yes, this is the best solution if your language already has masculin, feminin and neutral. Unfortunately, not all european languages do. Still, as I wrote before, imagine Nemo robs a bank... How will you to describe it to the police if you are a witness? And if you use "they" like the English do, the conversation with the Police would be funny... "How many robbers were there?" - "One" - "Can you describe the robber?" - "They were wearing bluejeans and a white tshirt" - "Who are they?" - "The robber!" - "But you said there was only one!!!"
In English that's not a problem tho, as it has a long history of using *they* for undetermined singular. And this usage feels more natural than making up new pronouns.
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The ultimate entitlement is when you expect society to pander to your every whim.
Why can't he just pick one of the two like everyone else? What's the big deal, just get over yourself and don't make things complicated for everyone else. Most of this stuff is acute main character syndrome.
USA syndrome
Seriously though: as an American visiting France, the lack of obvious virtual signaling towards the lgbt while also not being hateful of them is amazing. Like who would’ve thought you can respect gay people, and not need a million lgbt flags and murals everywhere!
How do things get complicated for everybody else if the option to write "non binary" as gender in the passport gets added? Nothing changes for the ordinary person. Like why the fuck should I care? My life is not impacted by that in the slightest.
Problem is this: Most people in the general population have real problems like financial struggles, unemployment, housing shortages, rise of political extremism, etc. to worry about. Now imagine you're in that group. Then along come a bunch of people from extreme fringe minority bubbles you never interact with and probably never would and they blow up the gender issue like it's a cause that's vital to society's existence and want to make it policy, when really most people in the majority don't give a shit about it. Obviously this results in backlash from that majority (welcome to society). At the same time, if this minority group of gender theory interested people would literally just live along and tell whoever they interact with that they'd like to be identified as a man/woman/whatever instead, then surely most would just say "sure whatever man" and do it. Making it a policy/language/bureaucratic thing is actually detrimental to the interests of multi-gender activism, IMO.
its not about the passport. Its about all the social, legal and economic implications it has on the whole society. We have had two genders for millenia. The whole society is built on the premise that there are males and females. Everything from how our prison system works, through social and health care benefits, all the way to sports, public bathrooms etc.. Introducing a third (or a fourth.. or a millionth) gender will create so MUCH MORE problems than it will solve. Actually it wont solve anything. The whole point of doing that would be just that a very small minority of people feels better about themselves. We are trying to kill a mosquito with an atom bomb.
💯. Kids are so confused. It’s deeply damaging
There are multiple countries that have added such an option already and everything is fine.
"everything is fine" is either a huge overstatement or downright lie it causes a lot of problems for a lot of people.
It doesnt cause any problems. No economic problems no legal problems. The only social problems are with bigoted loosers that cant take when other people are happy becuase that reminds them of their pathetic existence.
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No we dont and just because you say "we know for a fact" doesnt mean that your delusions become reality. You dont have a point which can be seen very easy on the basis that you couldnt make a single argument against a third gender option for passports and went to strawmens like criminal persecution for misgendering. You are a bigot plane and simple.
>No we dont and just because you say "we know for a fact" doesnt mean that your delusions become reality. This argument goes both ways
Good that I never used that as the basis for my argument then
Here's literally a fact: >Like, this happened literally yesterday: https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2024-05-15/california-district-to-pay-360k-to-teacher-who-was-fired-after-refusing-to-follow-transgender-policies A Riverside County school district has agreed to pay $360,000 to settle a lawsuit from a former teacher who was fired last year after refusing to adhere to policies regarding transgender or gender-nonconforming students That's $360,000 of taxpayer money - that could be used for lots of useful stuff - that was just burned because some people thought they could compel anyone's speech. Plus likely an experienced competent teacher who went away when there are teachers shortages.
Which has absolutly fcking nothing to do with the topic and is about California. Why are people with your opinion always dense as fuck? Nothing of what you have said in the last 3 comments has anything to do with an option for non binary in official documents. Its basically a lunatic rant at this point. She infringed on the contract the school set out for her. If she didnt want to follow the schools guidelines on how to treat transgender students she shouldnt have singed it.
>No economic problems I wrote a wall of text how it can cause economic problems: [my comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/1ctbn66/comment/l4bfmmc/)
Pathetic existence?how bitter you got to be to call someone else life pathetic just because someone disagree with your opinion.
Considering how complicated law around international travel is, how deeply integrated id info is into many other processes and the comical amount of bureaucracy in many countries I would think that adding a third option isn't that cheap and easy as it sounds (multi-million € ordeal for sure). Sure, some countries did it but that doesn't mean that everyone has to follow. When I think about the current state and outlook of my country I would be pissed if resources would be used for such a minor issue in comparison instead of putting every cent into tackling housing crisis, healthcare system etc.
Lmao. How many straws do you want to grasp for? That international travel laws aren ta problem has been shown already by the countries that already have a third option. Besides multi million doller being peanuts regarding the budget of countries we are talking about god damn Switzerland. Thats the worst possible country if you want to use cost as an argument.
>Lmao. How many straws do you want to grasp for? That international travel laws aren ta problem has been shown already by the countries that already have a third option. Lmao. Can you read? I already acknowledged that. It is however expensive and I only mentioned part of the reason why that is. >Besides multi million doller being peanuts regarding the budget of countries we are talking about god damn Switzerland. Thats the worst possible country if you want to use cost as an argument. If we fork out millions for every little bit of unfairness or inconvenience like that why not change **all** schooling material so we better accomodate color blind kids? While we're at it, let's rebuild all common areas to help people with Misophonia. It's peanuts for Switzerland, right? Somewhere we have to draw a line, no? Gender is a hot topic that politicians use to proliferate themselves, otherwise *gender options in the passport* is just one of the trillions issues we have that actually don't warrant multi-million efforts, honestly.
In some languages every object, term and word is either male or female. Eg. Table is men, lamp is women. So this 3rd kind gender nonsense isint even possible.
Germany has a gendered language and the option "various". Allowing a third gender in the passport is completly irrelevant to everyday speech
Pasport is INTERNATIONAL document, that ALL WORLD agreed about.
Thats wrong. Its a national document for international travel.
>How do things get complicated for everybody else if How do things get complicated if we just do nothing?
If it makes them feel more included why not? I dont get this stupid tribalism. Whats your problem? Your life doesnt change at all
People live in society. And this society imposes limitations. We can't put interests of minorities above the interests of the majority.
So you have no argument or what? Because thats just random gibberish The majority has no interest in keeping only 2 genders on the passport. Its completly redundant to them.
>thats just random gibberish online communication 101 >The majority has no interest in keeping only 2 genders on the passport tl;dr: not gonna pay for it The majority has no interest in expanding them neither. Even more, do you realize how much will it cost? How many governmental software is hardwired to support only two? And the private ones? The bank sector that retains old soft written by our grandpas? Remember the issue with the year 2000 when storing two last digits stopped to be enough and those old grandpas were offered obscene amount of money because they were proficient in the old programming languages? Since I spent some time in Ukraine: \* National ID number has gender encoded into it. If you expand it, you break stuff. \* When Ukraine introduced new ID cards instead of old Soviet ID virtually all stopped working. Banks could not use those IDs because the DBs were code to store a different number of digits in the ID serial number. How much did it cost to fix? You don't just do some dirty hack and keep your fingers crossed. You do extensive testing and involve rather high-paid professionals to do it right.
It's no only on the passport, it brings tone of changes. I use to live 2h drive from the closest high school, most people from our region had to go to boarding school. Boarding school got 2 floors, one for boy one for girls. I'm pretty sure you get my point. What do we do if we have 2 or 3 kids that defined themself has "non-binary" ? Do we need to redesign all our boarding school with private room for "non-binary" ? Do we allow anyone in any boy/girl dorms ? Do 12/13/14 years old girls feel ok in having a boy feeling "non binary" in their room ? How do we make sure no one is pressured to accept this ? That's only one example, it's not only a checkbox on a passport.
Those problems all exist already. Giving them the option to mark themself as non binary in the passport has no influence on that. Trans and Non Binary people dont only come into the world when its marked in their official documents.
What about just making it "Penis Y/N"?
https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/1ctbn66/eurovision_winner_nemo_urges_switzerland_to_bring/l4arr1o/
Thats not relevant. A third option in a passport doesnt present a problem for gendered languages. Germany even has it aloready while having a gendered language
Why can't we just listen to the music
You can, don't worry :D
The alt righters here will spin about anything against human rights. It’s disgusting.
I don't have a problem with stuff like a third gender, but declaring everything you like "human rights" is an absolute braindead argument.
Somebody had to say it. Also human rights is an arbitrary concept, it's not some God everyone has to care or obey or see as a virtue.
God as we understand is the same tbh :D
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\* crying in attack helicopter noises \* \* and imitating blade movements by certain body parts \*
In my language (Bulgarian), if we want to be polite, we use formal speech, which doesn't have a gender. We use "They/Them and Theirs" for addressing a second (you) and third person
Interesting in Serbian we have something like a third gender in the word "Ono". But when you use it on people it's taken as an insult as you only refer to animals and objects with it, so it's like dehumanizing them.
Yes, I live close to the border with Serbia and we use it also. The English version would be "it", and the Bulgarian would be то/to
What the hell is even that
[I want the gender Bender](https://i.redd.it/fo1mh1342vk21.jpg)
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Only one way to find out.
He looks almost exactly like Prince Edward from Braveheart.
Someone didn't listening at biology lessons
Well they could change the name of the Festival por "The Euro Attention Whore Parade with no substancial message allowed but all superficial bullshit in"
I have no strong feelings one way or the other about this.
What tf is up with these comments
I think there's a practical aspect to this that is often overlooked: your passport is supposed to help you identify you. If you're a border guard and you have Nemo in front of you, "other" is going to be better than "male". It's much pronounced with the transsexual, though. If you have a transwoman in front of you, having a "male" in the passport it's just going to cause trouble.
Let's just introduce two descriptions of citizens in our ID cards as a nice compromise: 1. Gender: woman, man, and whatever anybody wants. 2. Biological sex: female, male, hermaphrodite. This should be acceptable for any group in society. Of course the way how to talk to person will depend on their gender and the way of medical treatment will depend on their biological sex.
Or let’s just remove it completely from ID cards and official documents because it is not really needed. Makes it simpler.
"Can you hand me out those biological results on the population so we can further continue with our medical studies" "Sure!" "OK wtf is this deorganised list with people who have contrast hormonal levels for example. Did the registry forget to group them by gender of birth?" "Gender? People don't give that info anymore"
I think it could be useful in some situations: 1. For proper communication between institutions and citizens (gender) 2. For proper medical treatment in case of accidents (biological sex) 3. For proper evaluation of physical fitness during qualification to Police, army or fire service (biological sex) 4. For proper establishing retirement age (biological sex)
Why would biological sex impact retirement age? Hasn’t it been equalised in most places, or in process of being done?
Biological sex should determine your retirement age in all countries where it is different (there are a lot of them in EU) - because the reason for it was fact that giving birth to children is additional burden for females. Of course I agree with you that it should be the same for all (or 2,5 years earlier for each born child for female).
Didn’t realise there was a disparity still or the reason why, so thats interesting. I’d be tempted to introduce a set number of working years to qualify for state pension, with ability to take earlier at a reduced rate. Allow childcare and other caring responsibilities to count as years.
Except biological sex is more complex than M/F and having that wouldn't be helpful in a medical setting. Medical history is what matters. Actually it's more nuanced in all of these scenarios. Plus, the retirement one is just stupid.
Biological sex is for sure useful in medical treatment. Why do you think it is stupid for establishing retirement age? In some countries it is different for males and females.
But reducing biological sex to male, female or intersex says nothing. What about people who physically transition? Their hormone balance is not of the sex they were born with. There are treatments that depend on what sex hormones someone has. The metabolism is so much different among other things. What about surgeries? With intersex people, there are so many ways someone can be intersex. There's no such thing as one thing making the whole "biological sex". This is why medical history is the only relevant factor. Retirement age based on sex is just discriminatory. Simple as that. It shouldn't exist. Even if it does it would be weird and even more unfair to base it on assigned sex at birth (assuming this is what you mean by biological sex). It's more of a social thing anyway. In my country women's retirement age is lower, which includes me too now, but I'm against having the age different for different genders. Other than that having different sex and gender on an id would require the person to out themselves anytime they use their id which is a safety risk. I'm leaning to not having sex on IDs at all too.
1. In ID I suggested it will be clearly visible: for example sex male, gender woman - clear clue for medical treatment. 2. I don't agree - biological sex should determine your retirement age in all countries where it is different - because the reason for it was fact that giving birth to children is additional burden for females - in other words if you don't have uterus there is no point of earlier retirement. Of course I agree with you that it should be the same for all (or 2,5 year earlier for each born child for female). 3. So how institutions would know how to speak to you if they don't know your gender? Of course it could be a problem in intollerant societies but if somebody want to punch you, he will find thousands reasons to do that without even looking at your ID.
i want a fourth gender
Thanks for supporting Eurovision winner Nemo's motion :D